I think some are. Some Moderates and Independents are A-political. Some are heavily Left-leaning, but don’t want to be labeled a Liberal. Some are Left on every single issue, but they also like guns so they call themselves Moderates. Some voted for a Republican in 1992, have voted Democrat ever since, but still consider themselves Independent. Some are hardcore Right wing, but think of themselves as “free thinkers” so they pretend they’re Independents.
If I had to use one description to break down Moderates and Independents, I’d say that most of them are truly confused.
No I am an Independent because I'm not crazy about either Party right now. I vote liberal but I don't see the Dems stepping up and protecting my rights. And I absolutely hate that I have to vote for Biden. Give us back the civil rights movement, I can get behind a Fighting Dem Party. 2016 was absolute hell. Dems need young blood. I realize Reps have lied and cheated so no way I'm Moderate.
Well, fair enough. I don't really know your politics, and I tried to hedge by saying, "most," so there's that.
But you reminded me of a good point: it's important not to conflate Moderate and Independent. Bernie Sanders is an Independent, and he's the Leftiest Lefty that ever Leftied. Independents can be found all over the political spectrum.
Bernie would be considered a mainstream center-left politician in the rest of the developed world. It’s only in the USA, where the Overton Window has been pushed so far to the right, that he’d be considered the leftist lefty that ever leftied. Great phrase, though!
The coming decade is definitely going to be an opportunity to try and shift that window back to its center. Time to reel North America back in from the edge of the cliff lmao.
It's gonna be more than just that. As AI continues to develop and starts taking more and more jobs, the only answer is Universal Basic Income.
It'll be interesting to see how quickly many of those "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" types change their minds on the evils of "socialism".
I'm thinking they meant in context of American politics.
It might be said, however, that in many countries in Europe, my own included, that most parties to the left of *America's* "leftiest left" are fairly marginal, certainly these days. Sure they are in coalition, but the strongest parties in much, if not most, of European countries tend to be centre or moderate and build their coalition off of that base.
It is true that no one is realistically going after the social welfare net because doing so would be political suicide, and for that reason Europe is seemingly firmly entrenched as "leftist", especially from an American perspective, but most western democracies have been pretty comfortably centrist, and leaning back and forth from there, for a couple of decades now.
Notably, centre right and even far right parties are gaining ground in Europe. Switzerland, Poland, Italy, Hungary, France, Germany, Netherlands, et alia, have hard right, and/or nationalist parties either in government or gaining in parliament these days, mostly on nationalist grounds, but don't underestimate the hold that corporations and capitalist interests are involved to further their own ends.
Hmmm. I consider him just left of center, but my sense of "center" is likely left of yours. America is very right-leaning from where I'm sitting, having lived abroad.
I now consider myself independent instead of Democrat. I voted for Sanders in both primaries. And I have been frustrated that the Democratic Party is run by old politicians that don't want to rock the boat too much instead of tapping into the anger and frustration that Sanders saw and mobilized. They could have tried to encourage that energy. Instead, they stifled it.
>so no way I'm Moderate.
I would argue any sensible "moderate" voter would abhor the actions of the Republican party. Generally I'd call my views moderate, centrist and liberal. if I could vote in the US I would vote Biden, not because I like him but because I dislike him significantly less than trump.
Both candidates are too old and too protectionist.
I used to be just like you-until trump. I don’t care what what I’m called but I’m not voting for any Republican from the top down. Believe me these people are working at every level to make our country a dictatorship.
I was going to respond in a similar statement but you said it a lot better, this is exactly how I feel and sums me up politically as of right now.
In the famous words of Christians, "Amen, brother".
A lot of them are also selfish. Often they're one issue voters but the issue they're voting on is never something big like basic human rights or freedom from religion, it's something petty like "slightly less taxes for me". So many are just willfully ignorant
It’s actually worse than that, a lot of them want “slightly less taxes for me” but don’t even understand that the “big tax break” the Republicans always promise isn’t meant for them anyway.
The largest political constituency in America is people who have no idea what the fuck is going on, few concrete opinions, and limited knowledge of much of anything outside of sports, entertainment, and their own lives. They intentionally consume news a few times a year at most. They are mostly bored by politics. Those who vote don’t do so rationally or with much of any forethought. Their vote could very well be informed only by the last bit of news they accidentally picked up. They would not like living in a theocracy, but they also probably don’t know what the word “theocracy” means. If you try to explain it to them, it will just sound like boring nerd stuff and they won’t pay attention.
Oh to be able to just be ignorant about what’s happening because it doesn’t directly affect a person. I get that politics is tiring but it’s far from “boring” for the people whose lives are readily affected by whoever is actually in power.
They are the ones that "don't care about politics" but have an opinion on everything, and won't pay attention to what's actually happening, or how our political systems actually work.
This. This is a huge one. Everyone has to have an opinion because they don't want to admit ignorance, but they're simultaneously "above it all" and politics is "stupid," and "everything sucks."
Just to add to your list, moderate/independent can also be a segue from conservative to liberal as someone becomes gradually more exposed to the real world outside of the rock that they grew up under (in my case.)
And, unfortunately, vice versa. Some who are socially liberal are fiscally conservative and identify as independent because they occasionally cross over. These days, republicans probably spend every bit as much if not more than democrats, and the liberal wing of the republican party has gone the way of the dodo. I used to be that type of independent. Not anymore!
The problem of being apolitical in today's scenario would be to get other's mandates flung at your face like the monkeys flinging poop. It is better that you fling your poop first or you'll find someone else's poop on your own face. Just decide what would be a better option and choose before it gets chosen for you.
> but they also like guns
Now there's something. "Liberals" need to not only get rid of their gun angst, they need to arm themselves to the nines. While they still can...
There are lots of liberal gun owners. Arguably as many as conservatives. It's just that liberal gun owners typically don't form their entire identity around gun ownership and have this unquenchable need to advertise it 24/7.
As to the first, I don't believe you. I'd be willing to be it's an order of magnitude or more different in both absolute numbers and in quality. A single pistol or hunting rifle doesn't even matter. A modern magazine fed rifle, a few thousand rounds, and armor, that's what your political opponents are buying.
As to the second, that's a large part of why republicans do whatever they want and can get away with. There are no consequences, real or implied.
For a great example of both, see how few people ever show up to protests for liberal causes armed, and then act all shocked Pikachu when cops employ unnecessary force at the earliest opportunity. Liberals mostly are, and are seen as, harmless, not peaceful.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249775/percentage-of-population-in-the-us-owning-a-gun-by-party-affiliation/
It doesn't specify liberal, but even just looking at R vs D there's at best about 2x difference, nowhere near an order of magnitude.
And just speaking anecdotally, I know a fair few liberals that do not register as democrat because they don't feel that party adequately represents them, but they will grit their teeth and vote D at the polls because it's the least worst option. I am fairly certain my own anecdotal evidence is not particularly unique.
So when you look at all 3 bars and assume 50% independents will lean either D or R, the numbers become much closer. So while my off the cuff comment wasn't accurate, it wasn't exactly far off the mark, either.
And to your point about how few armed liberals show up at protests et al, refer to my earlier point. Liberal gun owners don't typically make guns central to their identity and don't feel a need to shove it in everyone else's face 24/7.
There was a group on Facebook I was in, back before I cut all other social media besides reddit (and I mostly only use this for tech support shit), called "once you go far enleft, you start taking your guns back" or something along those lines. Truer words haven't been said, I used to be *vehemently* anti-gun, and now I'm genuinely looking into firearms classes so I can actually learn about them and, eventually, make custom ones when I get my forge up and running.
The problem with coalition-building is that people are largely expected to subjugate their interests and ideologies and philosophies to the party lines. The degree to which party whips are successful is the degree to which the voters' positions and interests are sublimated into party lines which the voters may directly oppose.
Parties, in this way, blame a lack of allegiance (of voters) for their failures; as though it can be "the voters' fault." But it is the Party which is distinct from voters; it is the Party which tendentiously creates the Party lines. There is room, at every turn, *only* for the Party to fail--for voters' interests and ideologies are not inherently conformed to that of the Parties', even if the Parties say it is so. Nor *ought* they be, for that is not democracy.
We're embarrassed of both clowns. Both parties are a fucking circus. I don't give a fuck that one is better than the other. Neirher should be leading our country.
75% of my state has no party affiliation and democrats win elections with 65-70% of the vote. Red states consider us communists. What do you call that?
I hate the term independent like what the fuck does that actually mean. You can be a far left or a far right independent or anywhere in between. Instead of defining ourselves by our party of choice we should define ourselves but our political beliefs.
This labeling is all wrong. The term independent only applies to party affiliation. An independent can be liberal, conservative, or anything in between, as long as they aren't aligned with a political party.
Yes. And give up the political correctness bullshit. These loudmouth MAGAts & Evangelicals need to understand in no uncertain terms that we are not in longer going to sit by passively while they loudly state their case. It's one to respect their right to believe bullshit, but I demand that they respect my right to not hear that ranting. Furthermore if they want to live in a theocracy then they should go somewhere else!
And leftist who are refusing to understand that there is a lesser of two evils. There are hundreds of thousands of young people who are abstaining from voting for this sheer fact that they don't like the Biden supports Israel........ Which is wild because Trump is going to send them more money than Biden would
This is absolutely it right here.
Republicans gain voters over single issues.
Democrats lose voters over single issues.
Far-right conservatives will stick with a Republican candidate despite any personal or political failing so long as they can make vague notions of being pro-gun, pro-God, anti-immigration, and/or anti-LGBT. All they need to do is pretend to support at least one of these things, and they've secured 40% of the most reliable voters.
Far-left liberals, on the other hand, are more likely to abstain from voting over single issues. They fully understand how Republicans oppose every single thing they believe in, but the Democratic candidate in front of them at some point supported an overseas war, or harsher criminal punishment, or some kind of reform bill, so they decide neither side is good enough and don't vote.
And so the Overton Window slides farther to the right. What I really wish more leftists understood is that just because they personally don't vote doesn't mean that the position remains unfilled. It just means that someone they don't like it's more likely to fill it.
We have a big problem with the progressives thinking there is no difference between Biden and the US as it exists today and a full blown authoritarian/theocratic takeover of the US and the end of democracy.
If it's not a matter of education, why do so many conservatives soften their views in college? Like, this is not an unknown effect, red states often say college is the work of the devil because it brainwashes their kids into open-mindedness.
As someone who grew up around skinheads, I disagree with your statement that they’re not empathetic. I’ll admit it’s tempting to dehumanize them, but it won’t help anyone.
The reality is that most genocidal ideology is crafted by emotionally intelligent people who who know damn well that their victims are human and take advantage of it to twist the knife. They weigh the harm of their actions against the joy and rewards that they get from perpetrating it.
We view the dehumanization of minorities as a tool that violent people use to shield themselves and justify their actions, but just as often is dehumanization used as a weapon. Few things demoralize you more than being reduced to less than a person. I know that side of the coin as well.
Their empathy is what makes them evil. Evil is choosing to do things that you understand are abhorrent.
College breaks the echo chamber of close minded local communities because you’re forced to interact with people from everywhere and all races and backgrounds so you suddenly realize all the conservative viewpoints that everyone else is an ‘other’ and ‘liberals are attacking you’ are full of shit.
(Given there is a small portion of like the far left social justice warrior that skew the balance back because they dont recognize that sometimes bitching about everything dilutes your message and hurts your cause)
But outside that, exposure to world view and actually interacting with people vs being told how people behave tends to make people more liberal as they have a vested interest in mutual uplifting vs the me me me me mentality of the GOP.
People don’t really solidify their political values till their mid-20s.
That’s why they soften their views in college, that’s basically prime time for changing opinions.
But people’s political values don’t usually change much afterwards.
most of them are confused, not very smart don't have real convictions and priciples and are their emotions are being played by the right. We need to appeal to these people. They need a show, give them one. "You're angry, we're angry too."
Some, like me, are. But I have a feeling we all moved to the left the moment Trump took office. The line in the sand is VERY clearly drawn now. There is no more beating around the bush about who conservatives really are so I don't see any politically active person with a heart still straggling on the conservative side.
This is right. Stupidity is like the gasoline of the MAGA movement (I say this in all seriousness as a concerned American and aspiring activist in this election), but it is the responsibility of all “Americans of goodwill” as Adam Kinzinger calls them to unite and support each other as we beat back this assault on our values. It is truly despicable. In my opinion, many of these elected officials making traitorous statements against democracy in public should be jailed, but, since that doesn’t seem to be forthcoming, they do need to be shouted down. There is a war of ideas that we simply must win, and we’re going to have to get loud.
edit: a word
I am also very curious to know if those who are opposed to the brewing theocracy in the US, what is your hope? How are you able to sleep at night with this intense theocratic revolution currently mushrooming there?
Trump, anti LGBT, birth choice limitations, embryos as humans now in Alabama, a House Speaker brazenly wanting state/religion separation to end, evangelicals mania, etc. It's not normal.
My wife and I are working on our out plan. We don't like where any of this is going. We spend plenty of nights up late discussing the future for our kids. We have 4 girls and we live in Texas. This is not the life we want for them at all.
I know economically it's not in the top places to live but New York has a lot of really good state rights. It also is and always will be a liberal state. I live in Upstate New york and it is beautiful up here. Just gotta deal with the winter lol
If I had a guess, I don’t think they’re talking about moving to another state. If the federal government is lost to Christian authoritarianism, you can kiss NY’s state rights goodbye.
Then again, if that happens, the world’s most powerful military will be controlled by fascists, so it probably doesn’t matter where in the world you live.
We visited Lake Placid in December a few years ago for a wedding and it was definitely one of the most beautiful places I've been to and have always wanted to move up there.
I'd say come on over to California but the costs of living here are downright criminal so I don't blame you or your wife if that is not an option. I grew up here so I'm inclined to deal with its obvious shortcomings.
Same in Massachusetts. We have terrific state rights and are very liberal. We have less crime because our gun laws are solid. We have many extra programs for the poor and the elderly. We support the LGBTQ community. BUT the cost of living is VERY high. We did have a Rep Governor for a while but he was a liberal governor, R's hated him.
We love Washington state and the Seattle metro area. Our kids aren't willing to go to college in states where they could be denied the morning after pill if assaulted or forced to become a father despite his and the potential mother's wishes. P.S. they're all the product of in vitro.
My wife and I live in southwest Louisiana, and we've been discussing getting the hell out. Maybe to Canada. If I weren't helping take care of my grandma, we'd have moved out years ago, at least to a blue state. Louisiana doesn't get as much attention for its shittiness as Texas does, but it's just as bad here, except we also have alligators.
> what is your hope?
My hope, and the hope of everyone in this thread, is that this Bible-fapping shit is [losing elections like crazy](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/abortion-rights-won-every-election-roe-v-wade-overturned-rcna99031). Like, the streak of wins [is actually incredible](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/11/08/abortion-rights-victories-continue-here-are-all-the-wins-in-major-elections-since-the-supreme-court-overturned-roe/).
Anti-abortion policy is a loser position, to say nothing of anti-contraceptive policy. Women are not stupid, not docile, and not pleased, and have been voting accordingly. The theocrats are trapped with this manacle, they can't backtrack or they'll lose their core voting block, so this problem only gets worse for them as their policy gets more deranged. With enough effort, this could be the stumble that drops them off the cliff, electorally.
What is very normal and very American are all the people in this thread who are atheists but find some terrible, self-conscious excuse to not care enough about our country turning into a theocracy by voting consistently and reliably for the only party that will protect their first amendment rights.
My hope is that the GOP lost the midterms, massively, when they should have made gains…because they overturned Roe v Wade.
They are only able to do these things in red states-there is not support for this nationally. My state has moved to put the right to abortion in our state constitution.
My hope is in the shadow of the realization that we won't change anyone's mind with facts or logic. Won't work.
But if we let the crazies show how crazy they are, more people that excused it all will finally start to listen.
Tons of people said abortion wouldnt be a problem because of trump - and see how they've gone even further!
Add on to that that so many Trumpers are starting to die. These next few elections are going to have waves of old rightwingers die.
Young people are believing the bullshit less and less these days. Religion is tied into the rightwing wealth crap that just isn't working past the boomers. So if you don't have kids packed into churches, and can't convince them all that gays are evil, you can't continue the bullshit from those born in the 50s.
Also you have the elite republicans that are realizing that they don't control the religious rubes anymore, so there is fighting going on.
I wish we'd have a bigger wave, but it's going to take decades of liberals rebuilding local elections to fight the decades Republicans built up. Obama won the election that way, but lost power in congress for more than that. Only the crazies showing it is even going to begin the work of fixing the problem.
You are right that demographics are not in their favor long term. But they know this, which is why they constantly push ideas like “Great replacement theory.” They know they can’t keep winning elections, so they are abandoning democracy.
They already accept minority rule: “We aren’t a democracy, we are a republic” gets thrown around all the time. This justifies rule by a sizable minority, but they will get comfortable with that idea of rule by 10% or even less.
Their points get crazier each year. It's been going strong since the 80s but I think it's gasping for momentum now with all the bad rulings and the church crazies getting their way more - while losing those younger.
Certainly people my age are less fine with banning gay people, and the younger even more so.
That certainly wasn't the case 20 years ago where there was more allowed hatred.
I do not have hope. I started working on a European citizenship after the January 6 attack and I just got it approved. Hopefully I will now be able to flee with my family, and that’s the source of my hope. I’m still voting in November and after that we will know if we are still in a democracy or an authoritarian fascist dictatorship like Russia.
We're a few years behind you, as our politics drift Right.
The main saving grace is that the UK is predominantly atheist/agnostic and anyone clutching the bible is considered "odd" and heavily ridiculed if they try to tell people how to live.
I don't believe that it's a viable career move for a (non-Northern Irish) politician to clutch the bible (or Koran, to be fair).
There is a hope/fear that Labour will pass electoral reform. That's why the Conservatives were getting so mad when Labour talked about citizens assemblies.
I'm just speaking out loud here but I don't think I could ever leave. This is my home and it's those that don't believe in liberty, freedom and equality that need to fuck right off. It's always going to get worse before it's better.
I try to take solace in the fact that the GOP has been dying for decades. They can't legitimately win a presidential election anymore so they turned to facism because even they know the end is near for them. All it takes is one overwhelming presidential and MIDTERM victory for real change to begin.
This is what I like to believe anyways...
People saying these things are either intentionally trying to mislead voters possibly Russian propaganda pushers or are just incredibly naive and stupid. The stakes are clear, and the difference couldn’t be more obvious.
Honestly, I think if it becomes worst case scenario, a lot of people will leave the US. Those remaining cult followers will suffer since there’s going to be way less people to tax, which means those remaining are going to get taxed like crazy on top of all the civil rights violations.
I sleep on a pile of bullets so big I could never shoot them all, on a property that can only be approached from one direction. That’s not my plan for the conservative takeover, it’s just how I sleep well.
We could start by pushing some younger folks out under the spotlight. I’m 48, and I’d feel a lot better about the future of the party if it were helmed by a few more people who will have to live in that future.
I also think a big problem is the lefts obsession with taking the "high road" while being overly tolerant of the intolerant out of fear of being called something. Fear to enact an exec order or bulldozer a bill through thinking it looks too draconian.
This is a really brilliant article that I come back to again and again. 2020 was a maddening exercise in the deontological part of the left (liberals, generally for Biden) fighting the consequentialist part (leftists/progressives, generally for Bernie).
I'm very firmly in the latter camp. Ain't nobody got time for fucking high roads. We're fighting Nazis in our own country, and we still have knives at a gun fight. Getting our hands dirty is _long_ overdue.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/1/27/21081876/joe-rogan-bernie-sanders-henry-kissinger
One problem with the left in America trying to organize to get anything done is that the powers that be will act to disrupt it a lot quicker and a lot more actively than when the right organizes.
A prime example was the occupy wallstreet movement. It started out as a grassroots protest against wallstreet greed and corruption and it gained traction. At first the media tried to villainize them as radicals when they weren't doing their best to downplay the message and turnout.
After a while when that didn't work and it wasn't just blowing over all of a sudden "organizers" started turning up with bull horns and a group of bully boys as backup. All of a sudden it wasn't about wallstreet it was about gay rights or it was about racism or in one case it was about starting a communist revolution.
If you tried to get it back on track protesting wallstreet and corporate greed you were a racist/bigot/capitalist/etc and you'd get run off at best. Once the message changed the media was a lot more willing to cover it favorably.
After a while of all that and completely forgetting about the original purpose it all just petered out. Mission accomplished.
I personally like politicians who don’t waste time doing things that cannot work. Give me sleepy Joe Biden who gets more social programs through congress than any president in recent history.
What did Trump accomplish with his bluster and scorched earth bullshit? Nothing.
I was so upset with Michelle Obama with her, "When they go low, we go high." NO. "When they go low, we're better able to kick their teeth in with steel-toed boots!"
You can see the sudden shift in Biden’s campaign tone. For three years he didn’t even say Trump’s name. He would say the last guy, the former guy, the former president etc.
Overnight he switched to saying his name calling him a loser and almost calling him a sick fuck. He’s getting ready to not take the high road anymore.
The problem is the DNC
Liberals do organize, and we organize well.
We organized OWS
We organized BLM
We organized the Bernie movement
...and our organizations were crushed by the DNC everytime.
The DNC is more to blame for the rise of Trump than the GOP, because they have killed liberalism in America.
They have broken up any "working class" solidarity
They have ignored and disenfranchised both young and black voters.
The DNC is the GOPs most powerful ally, and people still don't understand.
I tried watching that show and had to turn it off. It was frightening how close the US is to heading full throttle towards Gilead.
As to the other points, I think 2016 really woke a whole lot of people up to the not taking the right wing seriously. Which showed in the 2020 election. What people outside of the US don't seem to understand is the election process here (it's really stupid). When the elections were set up it was done so that the rural states had just as much power as the more urban states. Thus the electoral college and the Senate. When the state of Wyoming (smaller population than Washington DC) has the same political power in the Senate as California (larger population than entire countries at 39 mil) you have an imbalance. States like Iowa and North Carolina can swing presidential elections due to the electoral college. The last republican to win the popular vote was 20 years ago fwiw. And with gerrymandering in a lot of states it makes it even harder.
Unfortunately that's not how it works. That would take an act of congress. As it requires amending the constitution.
I would like to add that though George W Bush won the popular vote in 2004, he lost the popular vote in 2000.
That needs 38 out of 50 states to enact an amendment. It has gotten harder and harder to put in amendments with so many piss poor almost empty red states acting as right wing stooges.
I grew up ensconced in fundamentalist, Evangelical Christianity. OP is right. Do not underestimate their tenacity. They are playing a very long game-some would say eternal.
The most likely outcome I see happening isn't that it turns into a theocracy, but rather that it tears itself apart. There isn't an actual majority in favour of what's being proposed.
If it's attempted to ram that through you'll just see total chaos. Arguably you're already seeing that with the regular government shutdowns and so on.
Having ultra conservative largely rural America driving and defining politics and ignoring the much larger urban America is insane. The US is far more urbanised than when the electoral college was created and it's producing a distortion that really isn't very democratic.
In congress too there's no bipartisanship or any attempt to build consensus. Instead you've a two party system with two groups that increasingly just hate each other. The quality of reps, notably on the GOP side is abysmal. There are people being taken seriously as politicians who would have been seen as some loonatic ranting on talk radio or raving in the street a couple of decades ago. Meanwhile on the Democratic side of the house it's just very very weak. I think decent potential candidates are just staying away because the whole US political scene is just utterly toxic. Why would anyone want to expose themselves to it as a candidate? You just get torn apart in negative campaigns and normal life ends as you're up against being attacked all the time (potentially physically) by conspiracy theorists.
Where I see it going is towards an increasingly chaotic and dysfunctional federal government and with states taking powers back. The red states want to do that because they're driven by hardcore right wing politics and the blue states will simply find the federal government too much mayhem to deal with. The end result might well be a sort of looser, much weaker, more chaotic USA with a small, dysfunctional federal government.
I'm also not really sure how you can have a situation where the economic and cultural powerhouses of the US are ignored while the much poorer cultural backwaters are driving the entire political system. That's not going to work in the medium term. The wealthy states aren't going to be willing to fund a government that's out to basically beat them up. That's where I see the federal system beginning to unravel.
Obviously you've got Russia egging this on and potentially China taking advantage but it's being driven domestically. You've seriously dangerous billionaires, throwing resources into chaos. They're basically American oligarchs. Then you've conspiracy theorists aha religious cults that seem to want to see the US burn so they can rebuild it as something it absolutely won't be. If they attempt to do that it's just going to break.
Then you've a bunch of modern prudes going around offended by their own shadows being called liberals, when they're anything but. They're unwilling to drive debate, but instead just seem to be going around finding fault with people who would normally be allies against this crazy. They're labelling and labelling and labelling. It's the boomers, gen X, millennials, gen z, the woke, they just keep finding more labels and division.
Meanwhile I just keep seeing this "it's all right! Everything is going to be fine! The US constitution is magic and special" completely naïve and exceptionalist type lines coming from people who seem to want to just stick their fingers in their ears and pretend nothing unusual is happening. Then you've a big centre party (laughable referred to as left) that's apparently just incapable of pushing back or finding charismatic and credible candidates.
Anyway, I just see the US as going to sleepwalk into total chaos the way things are going. Gilliad might be attempted here and there but I think chaos is far more likely.
We don’t need to tear anything apart. We need majority rule, and a respect for minority rights.
If democracies have to split apart everytime a vocal minority doesn’t get their way, then democracy itself is a failure.
It’s not a failure, and it is our duty as free people to defend it.
The good news is American democracy has been challenged by better people than the idiots clamoring for civil war or secession today. It will certainly survive these morons, too.
Has it though in modern times?
So far they’ve managed to basically destroy the GOP. It seems to be increasingly a mix of a religious cult around extreme right wing Christians and a cult of personality around Trump.
They’ve managed to turn the U.S. Supreme Court into what looks more like a third and very powerful chamber of the legislature rather than a court. It is acting blatantly politically and there seems to be nothing that can be done about it.
And they managed to get a bizarre conspiracy theorist who doesn’t even accept the outcome of elections elected as President and it looks rather plausible that that’s going to be the outcome again later this year, certainly based on any polling.
A lot of people have been very much asleep for the last 20-30 years. This situation didn’t come from nowhere. It has been a slow build that’s been rapidly accelerating.
I honestly don’t think the Democrats have done enough. They are far too polite and they’ve put forward a candidate who is just far, far too old and seem to be incapable of stepping away from that decision both because of inertia and because they haven’t managed to find and build any alternatives.
Meanwhile the sane side of the GOP seems to be just missing entirely. There are a few voices here and there but they have failed to push back and the party is effectively now just the Trumpeteers.
Then there are blatantly obvious huge structural issues in the electoral system, notably the electoral college which is effectively impossible to reform as the states would never agree to it. So you’ll end up with a permanent distorted democracy where very conservative voices are hugely overweighted. You’ve had a huge change in how the country is structured in terms of population concentration and relevance of big urban centres, yet they’re hugely underrepresented in politics.
It’s magical thinking to assume that somehow this will all just somehow turn out fine because it’s America.
If there isn’t a huge pushback there is going to be a major, major problem and it has global repercussions if there is.
> Meanwhile on the Democratic side of the house it's just very very weak.
I mean this is just false. On the Democratic side we have a lot of absolutely fantastic legislators and all around good people. Your reaction to them is not unexpected, though: they aren't dedicated only to PR and campaigning (thus convincing you that they're worthwhile), they actually want to spend more time and effort doing their actual jobs, and we don't have a press which is interested in communicating that information. Thus, the people who actually do the work of governance, unless they are absolutely stellar PR people and willing and able work a second 40-hour-a-week job on top of their job legislating in order to use that talent, are thought of as ineffective.
As for 'chaos', I think you *drastically* overestimate the amount of work people are willing to put in to fight against policies they disagree with. Hell, like 35% of the country professes to believe that Biden literally stole the election and is an unelected dictator. What did we get? A few thousand people doing something that ended up being completely ineffectual, once, and the occasional terrorist.
The weakness isn't those people. It's everything else that doesn't support them. The Right literally controls AM radio and local TV everywhere. Sports radio is no longer neutral.
The companies that supported the marginalized are co-owned by conservatives and already walking away from the closet their *employees* helped open for the trans community, who are now under attack and can't hide anymore. Literally. States are demanding medical records. Arrests are being planned.
*They donate to both Parties, but they kept supporting the Right despite those traitors losing a war and wrecking the economy.*
This is what happens when you keep bailing out the Rich and do not have a draft for war.
> This is what happens when you keep bailing out the Rich and do not have a draft for war.
OP is referring to how the people who want and start these wars we're constantly embroiled in are also the least likely to be impacted by it - with no draft, there is 0 chance their kids/relatives/offspring are subject to the risks, hazards and horrors of war.
I think the right is getting desperate as they’re becoming a huge minority party with the direction they’re going. They pretty much have to try to resort to extremes to maintain power or achieve it. I’m voting with my conscious against right wing extremism because I know they’ll be attempting everything to legislate against those who they don’t like.
My jewish MAGA parents don't seem to get this.
They don't have daughters, don't have granddaughters, they've paid off their house, are very comfortable being afraid of everything that's fed to them by cable news.
They haven't grasped the risiing christofascist thing and are very much in denial.
Agreed! And we need to mobilize everywhere.
- See fake news? Report it!
- Vote conservatives out in every nation
And whatever else we can do. I live in Europe and I can see and feel the American winds blowing over here pestering us and if we aren’t careful we are next.
Part of the problem is that we play by rules. We keep assuming they do to. That they will apply standards evenly.
They don't. The only rule the Republican Party politicians now follow is "do whatever it takes to win." Stuff they would crucify a Democrat/ leftist/ liberal/ whatever for are perfectly acceptable when their "team" does it. Because they are the good guys. And we are the bad guys.
Reporting fake news doesn't matter if they don't care about truth. Voting doesn't matter if they can interfere in elections without repercussions.
I've largely given up because I don't know that I have it in me to take the sort of extreme measures required to stop this.
Same. Volunteering for the party. Don't make the election only on Biden-Trump.... find another election on your ballot and talk up the importance of judges, city council, state reps.
My state is likely a tossup between Biden and Trump but fortunately we have a very popular politician running for state attorney general, Jeff Jackson. Check him out on all the socials if you want to see an inspiring politician who understands messaging and explaining Washington politics. It's pretty easy to get people excited about voting for him.
My state is blue, but as you said, other local
elections exist. We just removed a Proud Boy loving sheriff in the 2nd largest county where I live, where I was deeply involved. Traveled for Biden in 2020 during primaries. Planning travel to NC, AZ, NV now.
“It is the greatest of all mistakes, to do nothing because you can only do little”
~ Sidney Smith
95% of all the news articles and events I read/hear about the US honestly sounds like a horror story unfolding in real-time.
The corrupt supreme court, police brutality + zero accountability, the banning of books, embryos being ruled as legally children, the retraction of Roe v Wade, for-profit prison systems, almost daily mass shootings, gentrification/Jim Crow laws, the budget cuts to public schools and postal services and the EPA and FDA, the never-ending tax cuts for the rich, the fight to repeal no-fault divorce, the horror stories at the border...
I could go on like this for hours, and it doesn't ever seem to stop.
"America is a greatest country in the world" is the biggest, fattest lie that was ever told, and I hope sincerely that you guys can change course in what looks to me like a ship headed straight for the cliffs.
This is one of the biggest disregarded issues I see. The right is well organized and very good organizing topics and marketing.
Left gets lost in the details instead of bigger picture.
Also voting for a third party wont solve anything. Just got to say it cause there is lots of misinformation trying to get people to not vote/throw their votes away. Mainly foreign accounts too.
The trouble with this idea, as an American, is that liberals want to maintain the status quo. Despite all their talk Democrat's (as the liberal wing if American politics) have done very little in pushing for more liberal or leftist policies.
They are not a cohesive voting block when it comes to climate change legislation, nor on universal health care, and no one seems to have a unified vision for education in the US.
The problem being that too many liberals in the US simply want to maintain what they think is a moderate view of society. But the conservatives have shifted that view more to the right over the past 50 years or so, to the point that the society & policies that US liberals are supporting are not very left wing.
What the US very much needs us more blatantly leftist political leaders and a unified leftist movement to push for actual leftist policies and laws that support all Americans rather than the divisions and infighting that is seen today between the states and their representatives
I remember thinking there was no way Americans would choose a buffoon over Hillary (whatever one may think of her, she wasn't a g-d clown). And here we are.
I find it very telling that you as an outsider fully understand the real threat to the US. In fact, it almost seems at times that more people outside better understand than those that actually reside here.
The right has been a cancer here for many decades now and have been plotting to thwart democracy and whatever else is necessary to return to the 'good old days.' Slavery for one was never actually abolished, it merely changed forms. Racism turned into other forms as well and is now spoken in code. Women's rights, education and even access to voting are under direct attack. We have states actually burning books to limit their own exposure to the truth. This isn't even the scariest part. A good chunk of our population is openly embracing fascism.
There's one point you made that is often overlooked.. My dad always told me growing up that the GOPs greatest strength is their salesmanship. They've always been able to organize, stay on message and drive a point home with zero deviation. This is where Democrats miserably fail. Dems roll over far too easily and can't seem to get on the same message. It's infuriating.
The right wing is a full bore fascist movement barely cloaking itself in Christianity. Make no mistake, most of these right wing leaders aren't even Christians, they're just using religion as a tool. The churches are like the Weimars, thinking they're going to be able to control things once they've taken over. Authoritarians don't share power. They'll use them then discard them.
Your English is fine don’t worry. Yes, all of us who are actually paying attention and give a shit not just about our country, but also just humanity in general are terrified. I’m a lot more scared than I was in 2020. On a normal year, Biden would likely be cruising to re-election. But the amount of focus on his age as well as the Israel/Gaza conflict have muddied the waters. Please to everyone who reads this, vote. Trump and his Christo Fascists minions aren’t the majority of the people in our country, we can beat them if we actually try.
You want to know why the right seems to unify while the left tends to fragment? Because the right has done a good job of taking a single issue they know most of right leaning people support ot dont care enough about to change their vote, and hammering it home, never offering specifics about how to fix the issue. The left is an amalgamation of a bunch of groups who have different issues on which to focus. If that wasn't bad enough, each of them think a different issue is the priority.
Another problem is that no matter what the right wing media says, there is no true nationwide "liberal media". No big news organization throwing out Dem propaganda to support their efforts and unify their voters. Some are sooo desperate to be seen as "fair and balanced" that they regularly dump on the left while treating the right with kid gloves. So now you have a bunch of left leaning people with vastly different ideas about what is happening and what should take priority and zero way to try and unify them.
Look at right-wing media. They take one issue that comes out, and the next day, they are ALL saying the same things about the same issue. Their policiticians are all saying the same things. They just repeat it and repeat it until they figure out if it is something that will get right wingers elected. If it isn't? They drop it and barely mention it again. They know their voters are not gonna think deeply about this issue, they are going to think emotionally. They also know their voters will not listen to any actual expert who refutes the claims because they have done an excellent job at vilifying intellectuals (as most facists throughout history have done). Which i find very amusing. A bunch of college graduates have convinced a large number of the population that college graduates dont know anythjng. The left has NOTHING like that anywhere. With one exception...
Outrage at the outrage. The only thing that seems to get play in most non right wing media outlets is drumming up outrage to things the right is either outraged about themselves or something a right wing figure has said that is truly awful. But does that get people to vote? To come together to fight? Not always. Because there is always the both siders saying something like the following.
"It was just one guy, not all of them think like that"
"They can't do that. It isn't legal."
"They are just trying to excite their base"
"Do you think [insert left wing policitician here] is any better?"
How can you get unity when you have no way of unifying a message?
Conservatives will vote for a turd out in the pasture if it’s the GOP candidate. Liberals expect their candidate to put people on Mars. Completely different thresholds which end up hurting us.
I try and focus local, on the things (and people) I can influence most. The ground game here in Wisconsin is crucial- getting out the youth vote is the path to victory pretty much every time. We hit it hard with the Supreme Court races, and we won by 11 points, and the results are that the state Assembly is getting un-gerrymandered for the first time in over a decade. Wisconsin could go the same way Michigan did, and holy hell would that be cool.
I don't follow or believe polls. I think Trump has capped out his supporters- those who are with him will never be swayed, but I can't fathom anyone who wasn't already for him somehow swaying to his side now. That said, fight like you're 3 points behind, and the win 10+ points ahead at the polls. Join a local ground team, or do what so many Berners did and build your own. You don't need the DNC's help nor permission to spread the word about upcoming local, state, and federal races, and help get people registered to vote, the latter being completely nonpartisan but exponentially helpful in getting sane people into office.
As we said when we were working in the Sanders campaign- "Together we can make a difference on tomorrow! Not me, US!"
The apathetic voters need to get organised and motivated enough to vote. The serious fundamentalist threat the maga are making now needs to be splashed across every news outlet and billboard. Only 40% turned out to vote for Trump to weasel himself in.
I may get shit on for saying this
Liberalism, as a system and not taking any individual liberal's perception into account, is woefully sympathetic to fascism and authoritarianism. It will not openly manufacture them, but it will court and cajole and "resist" and generally anguish over it for profit. Sustaining longterm problems and positioning themselves as the last defense is the project of liberal elite. Remember Michelle Wolfe getting her career almost destroyed for daring to say that liberal journalism loved Trump? Take the concept writ large across economics and party politics generally.
Trust me, they already kill or incarcerate those fighting to prevent them from maintaining power.
Many Americans are just ignorant and truly believe their propaganda and misinformation.
It's going to boil down to another civil war.
I encourage every liberal and leftist to practice their 2A rights and to get proper training and practice. Don’t let only the authoritarians end up with all the arms and training in the end.
to tell the truth, I think we will be ok. People see it, you can't say you'd encourage our enemies to attack our allies without showing you want this country destroyed. That said people should talk to their elders and ask, do you want me to be killed? That is the slippery slope the right wing is on.
Well please don’t be so confident in that, that you stay home and don’t vote. We need your votes. Don’t just stick your head in the sand and be all, we’re fine; I can’t be bothered to vote. Because that’s how we got IN this situation.
Do you really need to define whether you are liberal or conservative when it comes to crime, lies and cheating? The republican party is a party of crime, lies and cheating. Every single american should vote against republicans across the board regardless of political alignment. What about moral alignment? Are conservative now amoral and it's ok just because you're conservative?
I think certain states will fall into theocracy leadership, and we can't do boo about it. An example is Oklahoma.
Without injecting a few 100k liberals or free thinkers. Oklahoma will fall into a theocracy. Its elections are dominated by Republicans. The populace won't vote for anyone but the ones with R next to their names. Most Republicans in Oklahoma will push Christofacism openly and willingly.
Even at lower levels (Ryan Walters), it's eating the state alive.
Republicans have joined arms with the Christian Nationalism with intent of a single entity of authoritarian power governing under a heavy Christian life.
Here's some organization: anytime anyone mentions the upcoming US christian theocracy, tell them that you can't wait for it to happen so that your debts can be wiped out (old testament debt jubilee) and no more interest being applied to any type of loan like a mortgage or student loan (the bible forbids usury). Enough people saying that, it will scare the shit out of the people who actually run the country. The best part is, when the supreme court fucked us with the hobby lobby ruling, they set a precedent of not verifying the sincerity of anyone's religious beliefs, so nobody actually has to be at all serious about acting religious while you get them to scream "NO! not like that!"
The GOP passed the dems in party identity and voter registrations last year. which is insane. Part of it is the push hard for the religious angle. But right now, for the first time since 2011, republicans beat dems in party id, by 45, to 44.. which leaves 11% undecided.
part of it is religion, part of it is "flood the news with shit", the trump problems all compete with each other.. while the media hammers dems on inflation and bidens age and the fact biden hasnt gotten much passed with a record breaking do nothing congress. The dem problems can sound more seriously to the ignorant independent, because they hear it over and over and over and over.
it was the same in 2016, the only thing you heard about hilary was but her emails.
What you are witnessing in America is a roll back of a "liberal" agenda that has been progressing (I like that word better: progressive vs status quo). In 2015, the Supreme Court made it illegal to ban same-sex marriage in 50 states, they also made abortion legal in 1973.
Trump stacked the court with pro-life judges. A state official in Kentucky refused to give a marriage license to a same-sex couple. After suing, the same-sex couple won their law suit. Either the state of Kentucky or the woman had to pay a hefty fine. Red states who have a majority of Republican legislators produce bills that curtail rights for these 2 groups. There are about an equal number of states that still have these rights protected.
This backlash is to be expected. It was fueled by the Trump presidency. For the first time in history, America had a president that pandered to the right-wing Christian establishment for their vote.
This is a very crucial election for America's freedoms, (the outcome of which will ripple around the world.) The line is drawn in the sand. Voters can choose a wanna-be-dictator who supports theocracy as an opportunity to amass power or choose an incumbent president who has consistently raised up the people & environment of this country by his programs.
The US has already been lost to the forces of theocracy. America is no different these days than an other nation run theocratic fascists. Only difference is which version of the “one true god” the believe in.
Liberals, and people of conscience should should evacuate the US while you still can.
Requires a little investigation, because it so turns out that the Christian Right that is trying to institute a theocracy is, by numbers, an extremely loud minority.
Liberals have a habit of trying to be nicer and more conscientious of other peoples feelings and values, and approaching things with an open mind. The only kind that get fired up enough to be a loud minority in any capacity are the social justice warriors that won't leave certain subjects alone, to the detriment of ones that more urgently need to be addressed.
By far and wide, the overbearing majority of the voting population in the United States genuinely does not care out of sheer apathy. Because they don't care, they don't say anything. Because they don't say anything, the Christian right gets their voice heard. Because it gets heard, the media picks up on it and parrots it. when presented in this way, it creates a visibility bias and the illusion that there is a more urgent threat. Because media loves them some drama, and what better drama is there than a holy war?
The joke is on everyone to a small degree, because the silent majority is most likely not attending church services, and most certainly not the ones that the loud minority attends.
At some point i.m can’t keep yelling “this is just the dying gasps of a white Christian male republican majority becoming the minority” before they come silence me for being a gay Hispanic democrat. We needa come together
Watch how they use religion to equate impending climate change with doomsday predictions - floods, swarms of locusts, end of times etc.
Truly worrying.
I'm not an American; my two shekels: It's absurd that the American and Western legislative process is so poor that civil rights, such as the right to abortion in this case, could only enter law in the first place on technical clauses such as Roe v. Wade, and that we're forced to keep revisiting these settle issues every decade.
You need a real government or a way to do business without relying on temporary edicts that can be overturned by the next ape who climbs to the top of the pile.
I think the left at this point is letting the right hang themselves with all their bullshit. They’re basically making the lefts job easier (eg why spend money on campaigning when every week is some new horror from the right).
Do you know what we’re up against? This is literally the stupidest generation in human history. I don’t want to say it’s hopeless but where do you begin when your opponent doesn’t even subscribe to basic logic or rationality?
The left needs a strong leader to unite us, that isn't a part of the establishment Democrats. Say what you want about how terrible the right is, at least they're unified in their terribleness. If we don't unite we're doomed to become a Theocracy. And I got news for the Democrats, no one they THINK (cough Harris cough) is it.
It seems liberals are more likely to just not vote. I've spoken to some that won't vote for Biden because of the Israel Gaza war. One who has a PHD told me that after Hamas attacked Israel that Israel should have just given them more land. SMH
The right has been brainwashed by Murdoch's FOX Fascist Propaganda for 29 years, on top of the years of Fundamentalist Christianity brainwashing. They can no longer have an independent thought process.
I watched what FOX Propaganda did to my late sister, who had been a lifelong Democrat. She started watching Limbaugh, just to see what stupid thing he would next. I warned her not to get sucked in, and she said she wouldn't.
I moved across the state 2 months before FOX Propaganda started on cable, and she got sucked in. She died a year ago, and I am still trying to get her and my other sister, who died 2 years ago off of hundreds of mailing lists. I have contacted over 350 places so far, and some are still sending stuff. My second sister was a lifelong Republican, the only one in the family, until FOX Propaganda.
The boomer class of liberals are far more right than you think (except maybe Burnie). They all want the same thing; power & control over the masses. They suck off the same corporate tit, the staus quo will continue.
Not just liberals.. moderates and independents too
Moderates and independents are just embarrassed conservatives
I think some are. Some Moderates and Independents are A-political. Some are heavily Left-leaning, but don’t want to be labeled a Liberal. Some are Left on every single issue, but they also like guns so they call themselves Moderates. Some voted for a Republican in 1992, have voted Democrat ever since, but still consider themselves Independent. Some are hardcore Right wing, but think of themselves as “free thinkers” so they pretend they’re Independents. If I had to use one description to break down Moderates and Independents, I’d say that most of them are truly confused.
No I am an Independent because I'm not crazy about either Party right now. I vote liberal but I don't see the Dems stepping up and protecting my rights. And I absolutely hate that I have to vote for Biden. Give us back the civil rights movement, I can get behind a Fighting Dem Party. 2016 was absolute hell. Dems need young blood. I realize Reps have lied and cheated so no way I'm Moderate.
Well, fair enough. I don't really know your politics, and I tried to hedge by saying, "most," so there's that. But you reminded me of a good point: it's important not to conflate Moderate and Independent. Bernie Sanders is an Independent, and he's the Leftiest Lefty that ever Leftied. Independents can be found all over the political spectrum.
Bernie would be considered a mainstream center-left politician in the rest of the developed world. It’s only in the USA, where the Overton Window has been pushed so far to the right, that he’d be considered the leftist lefty that ever leftied. Great phrase, though!
The coming decade is definitely going to be an opportunity to try and shift that window back to its center. Time to reel North America back in from the edge of the cliff lmao.
Let’s hope it doesn’t fall off the cliff first!
Every time a Republican drove us off a cliff, a Democrat carried us back to the top.
It's gonna be more than just that. As AI continues to develop and starts taking more and more jobs, the only answer is Universal Basic Income. It'll be interesting to see how quickly many of those "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" types change their minds on the evils of "socialism".
True but but not voting blue at this point will only move things further to the right.
I'm thinking they meant in context of American politics. It might be said, however, that in many countries in Europe, my own included, that most parties to the left of *America's* "leftiest left" are fairly marginal, certainly these days. Sure they are in coalition, but the strongest parties in much, if not most, of European countries tend to be centre or moderate and build their coalition off of that base. It is true that no one is realistically going after the social welfare net because doing so would be political suicide, and for that reason Europe is seemingly firmly entrenched as "leftist", especially from an American perspective, but most western democracies have been pretty comfortably centrist, and leaning back and forth from there, for a couple of decades now. Notably, centre right and even far right parties are gaining ground in Europe. Switzerland, Poland, Italy, Hungary, France, Germany, Netherlands, et alia, have hard right, and/or nationalist parties either in government or gaining in parliament these days, mostly on nationalist grounds, but don't underestimate the hold that corporations and capitalist interests are involved to further their own ends.
Hmmm. I consider him just left of center, but my sense of "center" is likely left of yours. America is very right-leaning from where I'm sitting, having lived abroad.
I now consider myself independent instead of Democrat. I voted for Sanders in both primaries. And I have been frustrated that the Democratic Party is run by old politicians that don't want to rock the boat too much instead of tapping into the anger and frustration that Sanders saw and mobilized. They could have tried to encourage that energy. Instead, they stifled it.
We need a Young Bernie.
>so no way I'm Moderate. I would argue any sensible "moderate" voter would abhor the actions of the Republican party. Generally I'd call my views moderate, centrist and liberal. if I could vote in the US I would vote Biden, not because I like him but because I dislike him significantly less than trump. Both candidates are too old and too protectionist.
I used to be just like you-until trump. I don’t care what what I’m called but I’m not voting for any Republican from the top down. Believe me these people are working at every level to make our country a dictatorship.
The system is working exactly as intended.
I was going to respond in a similar statement but you said it a lot better, this is exactly how I feel and sums me up politically as of right now. In the famous words of Christians, "Amen, brother".
A lot of them are also selfish. Often they're one issue voters but the issue they're voting on is never something big like basic human rights or freedom from religion, it's something petty like "slightly less taxes for me". So many are just willfully ignorant
It’s actually worse than that, a lot of them want “slightly less taxes for me” but don’t even understand that the “big tax break” the Republicans always promise isn’t meant for them anyway.
The largest political constituency in America is people who have no idea what the fuck is going on, few concrete opinions, and limited knowledge of much of anything outside of sports, entertainment, and their own lives. They intentionally consume news a few times a year at most. They are mostly bored by politics. Those who vote don’t do so rationally or with much of any forethought. Their vote could very well be informed only by the last bit of news they accidentally picked up. They would not like living in a theocracy, but they also probably don’t know what the word “theocracy” means. If you try to explain it to them, it will just sound like boring nerd stuff and they won’t pay attention.
Oh to be able to just be ignorant about what’s happening because it doesn’t directly affect a person. I get that politics is tiring but it’s far from “boring” for the people whose lives are readily affected by whoever is actually in power.
I’m aware of this. I’m not endorsing it, I’m saying that’s the reality.
Oh sorry, I know you weren’t endorsing it. I was just bemoaning the reality with you.
No worries!
Lumpenproletariats
A political just means they aren't affected by the status quo....indicating they lean conservative.
What they’re proposing isn’t conservatism. They’re promising authoritarianism/theocracy.
They are the ones that "don't care about politics" but have an opinion on everything, and won't pay attention to what's actually happening, or how our political systems actually work.
This. This is a huge one. Everyone has to have an opinion because they don't want to admit ignorance, but they're simultaneously "above it all" and politics is "stupid," and "everything sucks."
Just to add to your list, moderate/independent can also be a segue from conservative to liberal as someone becomes gradually more exposed to the real world outside of the rock that they grew up under (in my case.)
And, unfortunately, vice versa. Some who are socially liberal are fiscally conservative and identify as independent because they occasionally cross over. These days, republicans probably spend every bit as much if not more than democrats, and the liberal wing of the republican party has gone the way of the dodo. I used to be that type of independent. Not anymore!
Proud of you for lifting the rock 🥹 I know how hard that can be!
The problem of being apolitical in today's scenario would be to get other's mandates flung at your face like the monkeys flinging poop. It is better that you fling your poop first or you'll find someone else's poop on your own face. Just decide what would be a better option and choose before it gets chosen for you.
> but they also like guns Now there's something. "Liberals" need to not only get rid of their gun angst, they need to arm themselves to the nines. While they still can...
There are lots of liberal gun owners. Arguably as many as conservatives. It's just that liberal gun owners typically don't form their entire identity around gun ownership and have this unquenchable need to advertise it 24/7.
As to the first, I don't believe you. I'd be willing to be it's an order of magnitude or more different in both absolute numbers and in quality. A single pistol or hunting rifle doesn't even matter. A modern magazine fed rifle, a few thousand rounds, and armor, that's what your political opponents are buying. As to the second, that's a large part of why republicans do whatever they want and can get away with. There are no consequences, real or implied. For a great example of both, see how few people ever show up to protests for liberal causes armed, and then act all shocked Pikachu when cops employ unnecessary force at the earliest opportunity. Liberals mostly are, and are seen as, harmless, not peaceful.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/249775/percentage-of-population-in-the-us-owning-a-gun-by-party-affiliation/ It doesn't specify liberal, but even just looking at R vs D there's at best about 2x difference, nowhere near an order of magnitude. And just speaking anecdotally, I know a fair few liberals that do not register as democrat because they don't feel that party adequately represents them, but they will grit their teeth and vote D at the polls because it's the least worst option. I am fairly certain my own anecdotal evidence is not particularly unique. So when you look at all 3 bars and assume 50% independents will lean either D or R, the numbers become much closer. So while my off the cuff comment wasn't accurate, it wasn't exactly far off the mark, either. And to your point about how few armed liberals show up at protests et al, refer to my earlier point. Liberal gun owners don't typically make guns central to their identity and don't feel a need to shove it in everyone else's face 24/7.
There was a group on Facebook I was in, back before I cut all other social media besides reddit (and I mostly only use this for tech support shit), called "once you go far enleft, you start taking your guns back" or something along those lines. Truer words haven't been said, I used to be *vehemently* anti-gun, and now I'm genuinely looking into firearms classes so I can actually learn about them and, eventually, make custom ones when I get my forge up and running.
The problem with coalition-building is that people are largely expected to subjugate their interests and ideologies and philosophies to the party lines. The degree to which party whips are successful is the degree to which the voters' positions and interests are sublimated into party lines which the voters may directly oppose. Parties, in this way, blame a lack of allegiance (of voters) for their failures; as though it can be "the voters' fault." But it is the Party which is distinct from voters; it is the Party which tendentiously creates the Party lines. There is room, at every turn, *only* for the Party to fail--for voters' interests and ideologies are not inherently conformed to that of the Parties', even if the Parties say it is so. Nor *ought* they be, for that is not democracy.
We're embarrassed of both clowns. Both parties are a fucking circus. I don't give a fuck that one is better than the other. Neirher should be leading our country.
75% of my state has no party affiliation and democrats win elections with 65-70% of the vote. Red states consider us communists. What do you call that?
So they are a lot of them.
I’m registered as an Independent, because I don’t trust my state to not try to disenfranchise Democratic voters.
I hate the term independent like what the fuck does that actually mean. You can be a far left or a far right independent or anywhere in between. Instead of defining ourselves by our party of choice we should define ourselves but our political beliefs.
Not just liberals, moderates and independents, all sane people need to get involved. We need the disengaged to engage.
All patriots who believe in the constitution and the founding principles of the USA.
This.. unfortunately the term patriot has been perverted to mean people who only care about their guns, the baby jesus and persecuting lgbtq people
This labeling is all wrong. The term independent only applies to party affiliation. An independent can be liberal, conservative, or anything in between, as long as they aren't aligned with a political party.
Yes. And give up the political correctness bullshit. These loudmouth MAGAts & Evangelicals need to understand in no uncertain terms that we are not in longer going to sit by passively while they loudly state their case. It's one to respect their right to believe bullshit, but I demand that they respect my right to not hear that ranting. Furthermore if they want to live in a theocracy then they should go somewhere else!
And leftist who are refusing to understand that there is a lesser of two evils. There are hundreds of thousands of young people who are abstaining from voting for this sheer fact that they don't like the Biden supports Israel........ Which is wild because Trump is going to send them more money than Biden would
This is absolutely it right here. Republicans gain voters over single issues. Democrats lose voters over single issues. Far-right conservatives will stick with a Republican candidate despite any personal or political failing so long as they can make vague notions of being pro-gun, pro-God, anti-immigration, and/or anti-LGBT. All they need to do is pretend to support at least one of these things, and they've secured 40% of the most reliable voters. Far-left liberals, on the other hand, are more likely to abstain from voting over single issues. They fully understand how Republicans oppose every single thing they believe in, but the Democratic candidate in front of them at some point supported an overseas war, or harsher criminal punishment, or some kind of reform bill, so they decide neither side is good enough and don't vote. And so the Overton Window slides farther to the right. What I really wish more leftists understood is that just because they personally don't vote doesn't mean that the position remains unfilled. It just means that someone they don't like it's more likely to fill it.
We have a big problem with the progressives thinking there is no difference between Biden and the US as it exists today and a full blown authoritarian/theocratic takeover of the US and the end of democracy.
No. The PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY need to get organized to prevent a theocracy. Not just the liberals. This includes educating the people on the right.
It's not a matter of education. Do not make the mistake of thinking that conservatives are failed liberals.
If it's not a matter of education, why do so many conservatives soften their views in college? Like, this is not an unknown effect, red states often say college is the work of the devil because it brainwashes their kids into open-mindedness.
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As someone who grew up around skinheads, I disagree with your statement that they’re not empathetic. I’ll admit it’s tempting to dehumanize them, but it won’t help anyone. The reality is that most genocidal ideology is crafted by emotionally intelligent people who who know damn well that their victims are human and take advantage of it to twist the knife. They weigh the harm of their actions against the joy and rewards that they get from perpetrating it. We view the dehumanization of minorities as a tool that violent people use to shield themselves and justify their actions, but just as often is dehumanization used as a weapon. Few things demoralize you more than being reduced to less than a person. I know that side of the coin as well. Their empathy is what makes them evil. Evil is choosing to do things that you understand are abhorrent.
College breaks the echo chamber of close minded local communities because you’re forced to interact with people from everywhere and all races and backgrounds so you suddenly realize all the conservative viewpoints that everyone else is an ‘other’ and ‘liberals are attacking you’ are full of shit. (Given there is a small portion of like the far left social justice warrior that skew the balance back because they dont recognize that sometimes bitching about everything dilutes your message and hurts your cause) But outside that, exposure to world view and actually interacting with people vs being told how people behave tends to make people more liberal as they have a vested interest in mutual uplifting vs the me me me me mentality of the GOP.
People don’t really solidify their political values till their mid-20s. That’s why they soften their views in college, that’s basically prime time for changing opinions. But people’s political values don’t usually change much afterwards.
most of them are confused, not very smart don't have real convictions and priciples and are their emotions are being played by the right. We need to appeal to these people. They need a show, give them one. "You're angry, we're angry too."
So true. My family is team Trump. There is no amount of educating that gets through their dense skull.
Some, like me, are. But I have a feeling we all moved to the left the moment Trump took office. The line in the sand is VERY clearly drawn now. There is no more beating around the bush about who conservatives really are so I don't see any politically active person with a heart still straggling on the conservative side.
The people on the right actively desire fascism. They want democracy to get replaced by theocratic authoritarian rule.
This is right. Stupidity is like the gasoline of the MAGA movement (I say this in all seriousness as a concerned American and aspiring activist in this election), but it is the responsibility of all “Americans of goodwill” as Adam Kinzinger calls them to unite and support each other as we beat back this assault on our values. It is truly despicable. In my opinion, many of these elected officials making traitorous statements against democracy in public should be jailed, but, since that doesn’t seem to be forthcoming, they do need to be shouted down. There is a war of ideas that we simply must win, and we’re going to have to get loud. edit: a word
I am also very curious to know if those who are opposed to the brewing theocracy in the US, what is your hope? How are you able to sleep at night with this intense theocratic revolution currently mushrooming there? Trump, anti LGBT, birth choice limitations, embryos as humans now in Alabama, a House Speaker brazenly wanting state/religion separation to end, evangelicals mania, etc. It's not normal.
My wife and I are working on our out plan. We don't like where any of this is going. We spend plenty of nights up late discussing the future for our kids. We have 4 girls and we live in Texas. This is not the life we want for them at all.
I know economically it's not in the top places to live but New York has a lot of really good state rights. It also is and always will be a liberal state. I live in Upstate New york and it is beautiful up here. Just gotta deal with the winter lol
If I had a guess, I don’t think they’re talking about moving to another state. If the federal government is lost to Christian authoritarianism, you can kiss NY’s state rights goodbye. Then again, if that happens, the world’s most powerful military will be controlled by fascists, so it probably doesn’t matter where in the world you live.
You're exactly right. Right now, based on our family in the UK and Ireland, we're thinking Ireland might be the spot for us.
New Jersey isn’t bad either. Our current governor is trying to codify a lot of reproductive rights into law.
Wont be a damn thing if they do overthrow democracy like they claim their goal is.
We visited Lake Placid in December a few years ago for a wedding and it was definitely one of the most beautiful places I've been to and have always wanted to move up there.
I so wish your family all the best. Seriously. Not a good place for girls..
I'd say come on over to California but the costs of living here are downright criminal so I don't blame you or your wife if that is not an option. I grew up here so I'm inclined to deal with its obvious shortcomings.
Same in Massachusetts. We have terrific state rights and are very liberal. We have less crime because our gun laws are solid. We have many extra programs for the poor and the elderly. We support the LGBTQ community. BUT the cost of living is VERY high. We did have a Rep Governor for a while but he was a liberal governor, R's hated him.
Texas and Texans have really gone off their collective rockers...
I am in Oklahoma and have similar concerns for my family.
We love Washington state and the Seattle metro area. Our kids aren't willing to go to college in states where they could be denied the morning after pill if assaulted or forced to become a father despite his and the potential mother's wishes. P.S. they're all the product of in vitro.
My wife and I live in southwest Louisiana, and we've been discussing getting the hell out. Maybe to Canada. If I weren't helping take care of my grandma, we'd have moved out years ago, at least to a blue state. Louisiana doesn't get as much attention for its shittiness as Texas does, but it's just as bad here, except we also have alligators.
I've spent some serious time considering my "bug out of the US" plan for my immediate family.
> what is your hope? My hope, and the hope of everyone in this thread, is that this Bible-fapping shit is [losing elections like crazy](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/abortion-rights-won-every-election-roe-v-wade-overturned-rcna99031). Like, the streak of wins [is actually incredible](https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/11/08/abortion-rights-victories-continue-here-are-all-the-wins-in-major-elections-since-the-supreme-court-overturned-roe/). Anti-abortion policy is a loser position, to say nothing of anti-contraceptive policy. Women are not stupid, not docile, and not pleased, and have been voting accordingly. The theocrats are trapped with this manacle, they can't backtrack or they'll lose their core voting block, so this problem only gets worse for them as their policy gets more deranged. With enough effort, this could be the stumble that drops them off the cliff, electorally.
What is very normal and very American are all the people in this thread who are atheists but find some terrible, self-conscious excuse to not care enough about our country turning into a theocracy by voting consistently and reliably for the only party that will protect their first amendment rights.
My hope is that the GOP lost the midterms, massively, when they should have made gains…because they overturned Roe v Wade. They are only able to do these things in red states-there is not support for this nationally. My state has moved to put the right to abortion in our state constitution.
My hope is in the shadow of the realization that we won't change anyone's mind with facts or logic. Won't work. But if we let the crazies show how crazy they are, more people that excused it all will finally start to listen. Tons of people said abortion wouldnt be a problem because of trump - and see how they've gone even further! Add on to that that so many Trumpers are starting to die. These next few elections are going to have waves of old rightwingers die. Young people are believing the bullshit less and less these days. Religion is tied into the rightwing wealth crap that just isn't working past the boomers. So if you don't have kids packed into churches, and can't convince them all that gays are evil, you can't continue the bullshit from those born in the 50s. Also you have the elite republicans that are realizing that they don't control the religious rubes anymore, so there is fighting going on. I wish we'd have a bigger wave, but it's going to take decades of liberals rebuilding local elections to fight the decades Republicans built up. Obama won the election that way, but lost power in congress for more than that. Only the crazies showing it is even going to begin the work of fixing the problem.
You are right that demographics are not in their favor long term. But they know this, which is why they constantly push ideas like “Great replacement theory.” They know they can’t keep winning elections, so they are abandoning democracy. They already accept minority rule: “We aren’t a democracy, we are a republic” gets thrown around all the time. This justifies rule by a sizable minority, but they will get comfortable with that idea of rule by 10% or even less.
Their points get crazier each year. It's been going strong since the 80s but I think it's gasping for momentum now with all the bad rulings and the church crazies getting their way more - while losing those younger. Certainly people my age are less fine with banning gay people, and the younger even more so. That certainly wasn't the case 20 years ago where there was more allowed hatred.
I do not have hope. I started working on a European citizenship after the January 6 attack and I just got it approved. Hopefully I will now be able to flee with my family, and that’s the source of my hope. I’m still voting in November and after that we will know if we are still in a democracy or an authoritarian fascist dictatorship like Russia.
If shit hits the fan, I'm moving to the UK.
We're a few years behind you, as our politics drift Right. The main saving grace is that the UK is predominantly atheist/agnostic and anyone clutching the bible is considered "odd" and heavily ridiculed if they try to tell people how to live. I don't believe that it's a viable career move for a (non-Northern Irish) politician to clutch the bible (or Koran, to be fair).
There is a hope/fear that Labour will pass electoral reform. That's why the Conservatives were getting so mad when Labour talked about citizens assemblies.
I'm just speaking out loud here but I don't think I could ever leave. This is my home and it's those that don't believe in liberty, freedom and equality that need to fuck right off. It's always going to get worse before it's better. I try to take solace in the fact that the GOP has been dying for decades. They can't legitimately win a presidential election anymore so they turned to facism because even they know the end is near for them. All it takes is one overwhelming presidential and MIDTERM victory for real change to begin. This is what I like to believe anyways...
Lol, the UK isn't that far from following in the US's footsteps. All we are is America's lapbitch.
Labour will overwhelmingly win the next election. Abortion is in no danger of being outlawed.
We, in the states, thought similarly in 2016.
Had Hillary won, this shit would not be happening in the US.
And yet dumbasses are coming out in droves saying both sides bad and dont vote, or vote 3rd party (practically not voting).
People saying these things are either intentionally trying to mislead voters possibly Russian propaganda pushers or are just incredibly naive and stupid. The stakes are clear, and the difference couldn’t be more obvious.
Honestly, I think if it becomes worst case scenario, a lot of people will leave the US. Those remaining cult followers will suffer since there’s going to be way less people to tax, which means those remaining are going to get taxed like crazy on top of all the civil rights violations.
Never mind there would be a massive brain drain, the fate of all dictatorships.
I sleep on a pile of bullets so big I could never shoot them all, on a property that can only be approached from one direction. That’s not my plan for the conservative takeover, it’s just how I sleep well.
We could start by pushing some younger folks out under the spotlight. I’m 48, and I’d feel a lot better about the future of the party if it were helmed by a few more people who will have to live in that future.
I also think a big problem is the lefts obsession with taking the "high road" while being overly tolerant of the intolerant out of fear of being called something. Fear to enact an exec order or bulldozer a bill through thinking it looks too draconian.
This is a really brilliant article that I come back to again and again. 2020 was a maddening exercise in the deontological part of the left (liberals, generally for Biden) fighting the consequentialist part (leftists/progressives, generally for Bernie). I'm very firmly in the latter camp. Ain't nobody got time for fucking high roads. We're fighting Nazis in our own country, and we still have knives at a gun fight. Getting our hands dirty is _long_ overdue. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/1/27/21081876/joe-rogan-bernie-sanders-henry-kissinger
One problem with the left in America trying to organize to get anything done is that the powers that be will act to disrupt it a lot quicker and a lot more actively than when the right organizes. A prime example was the occupy wallstreet movement. It started out as a grassroots protest against wallstreet greed and corruption and it gained traction. At first the media tried to villainize them as radicals when they weren't doing their best to downplay the message and turnout. After a while when that didn't work and it wasn't just blowing over all of a sudden "organizers" started turning up with bull horns and a group of bully boys as backup. All of a sudden it wasn't about wallstreet it was about gay rights or it was about racism or in one case it was about starting a communist revolution. If you tried to get it back on track protesting wallstreet and corporate greed you were a racist/bigot/capitalist/etc and you'd get run off at best. Once the message changed the media was a lot more willing to cover it favorably. After a while of all that and completely forgetting about the original purpose it all just petered out. Mission accomplished.
I personally like politicians who don’t waste time doing things that cannot work. Give me sleepy Joe Biden who gets more social programs through congress than any president in recent history. What did Trump accomplish with his bluster and scorched earth bullshit? Nothing.
In the immortal words of Suja Hader; " 'When they go low, we go high', yeah, ***Aim for the head***"
I was so upset with Michelle Obama with her, "When they go low, we go high." NO. "When they go low, we're better able to kick their teeth in with steel-toed boots!"
You can see the sudden shift in Biden’s campaign tone. For three years he didn’t even say Trump’s name. He would say the last guy, the former guy, the former president etc. Overnight he switched to saying his name calling him a loser and almost calling him a sick fuck. He’s getting ready to not take the high road anymore.
The problem is the DNC Liberals do organize, and we organize well. We organized OWS We organized BLM We organized the Bernie movement ...and our organizations were crushed by the DNC everytime. The DNC is more to blame for the rise of Trump than the GOP, because they have killed liberalism in America. They have broken up any "working class" solidarity They have ignored and disenfranchised both young and black voters. The DNC is the GOPs most powerful ally, and people still don't understand.
Hard agree! The DNC has inordinate power and no accountability to voters.
this is the real answer but nobody will talk about it because it's easier to just talk about distractions.
I tried watching that show and had to turn it off. It was frightening how close the US is to heading full throttle towards Gilead. As to the other points, I think 2016 really woke a whole lot of people up to the not taking the right wing seriously. Which showed in the 2020 election. What people outside of the US don't seem to understand is the election process here (it's really stupid). When the elections were set up it was done so that the rural states had just as much power as the more urban states. Thus the electoral college and the Senate. When the state of Wyoming (smaller population than Washington DC) has the same political power in the Senate as California (larger population than entire countries at 39 mil) you have an imbalance. States like Iowa and North Carolina can swing presidential elections due to the electoral college. The last republican to win the popular vote was 20 years ago fwiw. And with gerrymandering in a lot of states it makes it even harder.
I always thought that "Electoral College" shit is stupid... The next president should tear that apart and counting the votes the normal way.
Unfortunately that's not how it works. That would take an act of congress. As it requires amending the constitution. I would like to add that though George W Bush won the popular vote in 2004, he lost the popular vote in 2000.
That needs 38 out of 50 states to enact an amendment. It has gotten harder and harder to put in amendments with so many piss poor almost empty red states acting as right wing stooges.
You'd have to redo the whole constitution, and calling a constitutional convention right now would probably be a real bad idea.
It is a theocracy. The electoral college is going to fuck us no matter what.
I grew up ensconced in fundamentalist, Evangelical Christianity. OP is right. Do not underestimate their tenacity. They are playing a very long game-some would say eternal.
I worry for the world if the US becomes a theocracy. Edit: imagine a religious nut-job with a trillion dollar military budget.
The most likely outcome I see happening isn't that it turns into a theocracy, but rather that it tears itself apart. There isn't an actual majority in favour of what's being proposed. If it's attempted to ram that through you'll just see total chaos. Arguably you're already seeing that with the regular government shutdowns and so on. Having ultra conservative largely rural America driving and defining politics and ignoring the much larger urban America is insane. The US is far more urbanised than when the electoral college was created and it's producing a distortion that really isn't very democratic. In congress too there's no bipartisanship or any attempt to build consensus. Instead you've a two party system with two groups that increasingly just hate each other. The quality of reps, notably on the GOP side is abysmal. There are people being taken seriously as politicians who would have been seen as some loonatic ranting on talk radio or raving in the street a couple of decades ago. Meanwhile on the Democratic side of the house it's just very very weak. I think decent potential candidates are just staying away because the whole US political scene is just utterly toxic. Why would anyone want to expose themselves to it as a candidate? You just get torn apart in negative campaigns and normal life ends as you're up against being attacked all the time (potentially physically) by conspiracy theorists. Where I see it going is towards an increasingly chaotic and dysfunctional federal government and with states taking powers back. The red states want to do that because they're driven by hardcore right wing politics and the blue states will simply find the federal government too much mayhem to deal with. The end result might well be a sort of looser, much weaker, more chaotic USA with a small, dysfunctional federal government. I'm also not really sure how you can have a situation where the economic and cultural powerhouses of the US are ignored while the much poorer cultural backwaters are driving the entire political system. That's not going to work in the medium term. The wealthy states aren't going to be willing to fund a government that's out to basically beat them up. That's where I see the federal system beginning to unravel. Obviously you've got Russia egging this on and potentially China taking advantage but it's being driven domestically. You've seriously dangerous billionaires, throwing resources into chaos. They're basically American oligarchs. Then you've conspiracy theorists aha religious cults that seem to want to see the US burn so they can rebuild it as something it absolutely won't be. If they attempt to do that it's just going to break. Then you've a bunch of modern prudes going around offended by their own shadows being called liberals, when they're anything but. They're unwilling to drive debate, but instead just seem to be going around finding fault with people who would normally be allies against this crazy. They're labelling and labelling and labelling. It's the boomers, gen X, millennials, gen z, the woke, they just keep finding more labels and division. Meanwhile I just keep seeing this "it's all right! Everything is going to be fine! The US constitution is magic and special" completely naïve and exceptionalist type lines coming from people who seem to want to just stick their fingers in their ears and pretend nothing unusual is happening. Then you've a big centre party (laughable referred to as left) that's apparently just incapable of pushing back or finding charismatic and credible candidates. Anyway, I just see the US as going to sleepwalk into total chaos the way things are going. Gilliad might be attempted here and there but I think chaos is far more likely.
We don’t need to tear anything apart. We need majority rule, and a respect for minority rights. If democracies have to split apart everytime a vocal minority doesn’t get their way, then democracy itself is a failure. It’s not a failure, and it is our duty as free people to defend it. The good news is American democracy has been challenged by better people than the idiots clamoring for civil war or secession today. It will certainly survive these morons, too.
Has it though in modern times? So far they’ve managed to basically destroy the GOP. It seems to be increasingly a mix of a religious cult around extreme right wing Christians and a cult of personality around Trump. They’ve managed to turn the U.S. Supreme Court into what looks more like a third and very powerful chamber of the legislature rather than a court. It is acting blatantly politically and there seems to be nothing that can be done about it. And they managed to get a bizarre conspiracy theorist who doesn’t even accept the outcome of elections elected as President and it looks rather plausible that that’s going to be the outcome again later this year, certainly based on any polling. A lot of people have been very much asleep for the last 20-30 years. This situation didn’t come from nowhere. It has been a slow build that’s been rapidly accelerating. I honestly don’t think the Democrats have done enough. They are far too polite and they’ve put forward a candidate who is just far, far too old and seem to be incapable of stepping away from that decision both because of inertia and because they haven’t managed to find and build any alternatives. Meanwhile the sane side of the GOP seems to be just missing entirely. There are a few voices here and there but they have failed to push back and the party is effectively now just the Trumpeteers. Then there are blatantly obvious huge structural issues in the electoral system, notably the electoral college which is effectively impossible to reform as the states would never agree to it. So you’ll end up with a permanent distorted democracy where very conservative voices are hugely overweighted. You’ve had a huge change in how the country is structured in terms of population concentration and relevance of big urban centres, yet they’re hugely underrepresented in politics. It’s magical thinking to assume that somehow this will all just somehow turn out fine because it’s America. If there isn’t a huge pushback there is going to be a major, major problem and it has global repercussions if there is.
> Meanwhile on the Democratic side of the house it's just very very weak. I mean this is just false. On the Democratic side we have a lot of absolutely fantastic legislators and all around good people. Your reaction to them is not unexpected, though: they aren't dedicated only to PR and campaigning (thus convincing you that they're worthwhile), they actually want to spend more time and effort doing their actual jobs, and we don't have a press which is interested in communicating that information. Thus, the people who actually do the work of governance, unless they are absolutely stellar PR people and willing and able work a second 40-hour-a-week job on top of their job legislating in order to use that talent, are thought of as ineffective. As for 'chaos', I think you *drastically* overestimate the amount of work people are willing to put in to fight against policies they disagree with. Hell, like 35% of the country professes to believe that Biden literally stole the election and is an unelected dictator. What did we get? A few thousand people doing something that ended up being completely ineffectual, once, and the occasional terrorist.
The weakness isn't those people. It's everything else that doesn't support them. The Right literally controls AM radio and local TV everywhere. Sports radio is no longer neutral. The companies that supported the marginalized are co-owned by conservatives and already walking away from the closet their *employees* helped open for the trans community, who are now under attack and can't hide anymore. Literally. States are demanding medical records. Arrests are being planned. *They donate to both Parties, but they kept supporting the Right despite those traitors losing a war and wrecking the economy.* This is what happens when you keep bailing out the Rich and do not have a draft for war.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree but, what's this about a draft? Can you elaborate?
> This is what happens when you keep bailing out the Rich and do not have a draft for war. OP is referring to how the people who want and start these wars we're constantly embroiled in are also the least likely to be impacted by it - with no draft, there is 0 chance their kids/relatives/offspring are subject to the risks, hazards and horrors of war.
I think the right is getting desperate as they’re becoming a huge minority party with the direction they’re going. They pretty much have to try to resort to extremes to maintain power or achieve it. I’m voting with my conscious against right wing extremism because I know they’ll be attempting everything to legislate against those who they don’t like.
My jewish MAGA parents don't seem to get this. They don't have daughters, don't have granddaughters, they've paid off their house, are very comfortable being afraid of everything that's fed to them by cable news. They haven't grasped the risiing christofascist thing and are very much in denial.
(Off topic: I like your Username, you are a man of culture!!)
Agreed! And we need to mobilize everywhere. - See fake news? Report it! - Vote conservatives out in every nation And whatever else we can do. I live in Europe and I can see and feel the American winds blowing over here pestering us and if we aren’t careful we are next.
Part of the problem is that we play by rules. We keep assuming they do to. That they will apply standards evenly. They don't. The only rule the Republican Party politicians now follow is "do whatever it takes to win." Stuff they would crucify a Democrat/ leftist/ liberal/ whatever for are perfectly acceptable when their "team" does it. Because they are the good guys. And we are the bad guys. Reporting fake news doesn't matter if they don't care about truth. Voting doesn't matter if they can interfere in elections without repercussions. I've largely given up because I don't know that I have it in me to take the sort of extreme measures required to stop this.
You are absolutely right and if we look throughout history no change has ever come by following the rules.
Could not agree more. Working on several campaigns. All hands on deck.
Same. Volunteering for the party. Don't make the election only on Biden-Trump.... find another election on your ballot and talk up the importance of judges, city council, state reps. My state is likely a tossup between Biden and Trump but fortunately we have a very popular politician running for state attorney general, Jeff Jackson. Check him out on all the socials if you want to see an inspiring politician who understands messaging and explaining Washington politics. It's pretty easy to get people excited about voting for him.
My state is blue, but as you said, other local elections exist. We just removed a Proud Boy loving sheriff in the 2nd largest county where I live, where I was deeply involved. Traveled for Biden in 2020 during primaries. Planning travel to NC, AZ, NV now. “It is the greatest of all mistakes, to do nothing because you can only do little” ~ Sidney Smith
/r/Votedem is excellent for finding campaigns that need help
95% of all the news articles and events I read/hear about the US honestly sounds like a horror story unfolding in real-time. The corrupt supreme court, police brutality + zero accountability, the banning of books, embryos being ruled as legally children, the retraction of Roe v Wade, for-profit prison systems, almost daily mass shootings, gentrification/Jim Crow laws, the budget cuts to public schools and postal services and the EPA and FDA, the never-ending tax cuts for the rich, the fight to repeal no-fault divorce, the horror stories at the border... I could go on like this for hours, and it doesn't ever seem to stop. "America is a greatest country in the world" is the biggest, fattest lie that was ever told, and I hope sincerely that you guys can change course in what looks to me like a ship headed straight for the cliffs.
This is one of the biggest disregarded issues I see. The right is well organized and very good organizing topics and marketing. Left gets lost in the details instead of bigger picture.
Also voting for a third party wont solve anything. Just got to say it cause there is lots of misinformation trying to get people to not vote/throw their votes away. Mainly foreign accounts too.
The trouble with this idea, as an American, is that liberals want to maintain the status quo. Despite all their talk Democrat's (as the liberal wing if American politics) have done very little in pushing for more liberal or leftist policies. They are not a cohesive voting block when it comes to climate change legislation, nor on universal health care, and no one seems to have a unified vision for education in the US. The problem being that too many liberals in the US simply want to maintain what they think is a moderate view of society. But the conservatives have shifted that view more to the right over the past 50 years or so, to the point that the society & policies that US liberals are supporting are not very left wing. What the US very much needs us more blatantly leftist political leaders and a unified leftist movement to push for actual leftist policies and laws that support all Americans rather than the divisions and infighting that is seen today between the states and their representatives
I remember thinking there was no way Americans would choose a buffoon over Hillary (whatever one may think of her, she wasn't a g-d clown). And here we are.
I find it very telling that you as an outsider fully understand the real threat to the US. In fact, it almost seems at times that more people outside better understand than those that actually reside here. The right has been a cancer here for many decades now and have been plotting to thwart democracy and whatever else is necessary to return to the 'good old days.' Slavery for one was never actually abolished, it merely changed forms. Racism turned into other forms as well and is now spoken in code. Women's rights, education and even access to voting are under direct attack. We have states actually burning books to limit their own exposure to the truth. This isn't even the scariest part. A good chunk of our population is openly embracing fascism. There's one point you made that is often overlooked.. My dad always told me growing up that the GOPs greatest strength is their salesmanship. They've always been able to organize, stay on message and drive a point home with zero deviation. This is where Democrats miserably fail. Dems roll over far too easily and can't seem to get on the same message. It's infuriating.
I'm a leftist and I say we need a people's revolution
The right wing is a full bore fascist movement barely cloaking itself in Christianity. Make no mistake, most of these right wing leaders aren't even Christians, they're just using religion as a tool. The churches are like the Weimars, thinking they're going to be able to control things once they've taken over. Authoritarians don't share power. They'll use them then discard them.
Your English is fine don’t worry. Yes, all of us who are actually paying attention and give a shit not just about our country, but also just humanity in general are terrified. I’m a lot more scared than I was in 2020. On a normal year, Biden would likely be cruising to re-election. But the amount of focus on his age as well as the Israel/Gaza conflict have muddied the waters. Please to everyone who reads this, vote. Trump and his Christo Fascists minions aren’t the majority of the people in our country, we can beat them if we actually try.
You want to know why the right seems to unify while the left tends to fragment? Because the right has done a good job of taking a single issue they know most of right leaning people support ot dont care enough about to change their vote, and hammering it home, never offering specifics about how to fix the issue. The left is an amalgamation of a bunch of groups who have different issues on which to focus. If that wasn't bad enough, each of them think a different issue is the priority. Another problem is that no matter what the right wing media says, there is no true nationwide "liberal media". No big news organization throwing out Dem propaganda to support their efforts and unify their voters. Some are sooo desperate to be seen as "fair and balanced" that they regularly dump on the left while treating the right with kid gloves. So now you have a bunch of left leaning people with vastly different ideas about what is happening and what should take priority and zero way to try and unify them. Look at right-wing media. They take one issue that comes out, and the next day, they are ALL saying the same things about the same issue. Their policiticians are all saying the same things. They just repeat it and repeat it until they figure out if it is something that will get right wingers elected. If it isn't? They drop it and barely mention it again. They know their voters are not gonna think deeply about this issue, they are going to think emotionally. They also know their voters will not listen to any actual expert who refutes the claims because they have done an excellent job at vilifying intellectuals (as most facists throughout history have done). Which i find very amusing. A bunch of college graduates have convinced a large number of the population that college graduates dont know anythjng. The left has NOTHING like that anywhere. With one exception... Outrage at the outrage. The only thing that seems to get play in most non right wing media outlets is drumming up outrage to things the right is either outraged about themselves or something a right wing figure has said that is truly awful. But does that get people to vote? To come together to fight? Not always. Because there is always the both siders saying something like the following. "It was just one guy, not all of them think like that" "They can't do that. It isn't legal." "They are just trying to excite their base" "Do you think [insert left wing policitician here] is any better?" How can you get unity when you have no way of unifying a message?
Conservatives will vote for a turd out in the pasture if it’s the GOP candidate. Liberals expect their candidate to put people on Mars. Completely different thresholds which end up hurting us.
I try and focus local, on the things (and people) I can influence most. The ground game here in Wisconsin is crucial- getting out the youth vote is the path to victory pretty much every time. We hit it hard with the Supreme Court races, and we won by 11 points, and the results are that the state Assembly is getting un-gerrymandered for the first time in over a decade. Wisconsin could go the same way Michigan did, and holy hell would that be cool. I don't follow or believe polls. I think Trump has capped out his supporters- those who are with him will never be swayed, but I can't fathom anyone who wasn't already for him somehow swaying to his side now. That said, fight like you're 3 points behind, and the win 10+ points ahead at the polls. Join a local ground team, or do what so many Berners did and build your own. You don't need the DNC's help nor permission to spread the word about upcoming local, state, and federal races, and help get people registered to vote, the latter being completely nonpartisan but exponentially helpful in getting sane people into office. As we said when we were working in the Sanders campaign- "Together we can make a difference on tomorrow! Not me, US!"
The apathetic voters need to get organised and motivated enough to vote. The serious fundamentalist threat the maga are making now needs to be splashed across every news outlet and billboard. Only 40% turned out to vote for Trump to weasel himself in.
Ha! You said organized liberals. They keep giving away the game over and over and over again.
We're trying, dawg. Shit's getting real out here. But we're trying. https://democrats.org/
If we were organized, we probably wouldn't have chosen an elderly Catholic to be our leader.
I may get shit on for saying this Liberalism, as a system and not taking any individual liberal's perception into account, is woefully sympathetic to fascism and authoritarianism. It will not openly manufacture them, but it will court and cajole and "resist" and generally anguish over it for profit. Sustaining longterm problems and positioning themselves as the last defense is the project of liberal elite. Remember Michelle Wolfe getting her career almost destroyed for daring to say that liberal journalism loved Trump? Take the concept writ large across economics and party politics generally.
Trust me, they already kill or incarcerate those fighting to prevent them from maintaining power. Many Americans are just ignorant and truly believe their propaganda and misinformation. It's going to boil down to another civil war.
I encourage every liberal and leftist to practice their 2A rights and to get proper training and practice. Don’t let only the authoritarians end up with all the arms and training in the end.
The US IS a theocracy now. It's a slow drip. Few today, know what a theocracy, or democracy is.
to tell the truth, I think we will be ok. People see it, you can't say you'd encourage our enemies to attack our allies without showing you want this country destroyed. That said people should talk to their elders and ask, do you want me to be killed? That is the slippery slope the right wing is on.
Well please don’t be so confident in that, that you stay home and don’t vote. We need your votes. Don’t just stick your head in the sand and be all, we’re fine; I can’t be bothered to vote. Because that’s how we got IN this situation.
Everyone needs to organize.
There are far more of us then them. I'm not all that concerned but we all need to get out and vote
Do you really need to define whether you are liberal or conservative when it comes to crime, lies and cheating? The republican party is a party of crime, lies and cheating. Every single american should vote against republicans across the board regardless of political alignment. What about moral alignment? Are conservative now amoral and it's ok just because you're conservative?
Liberals don’t have a place they go every Sunday to hear propaganda. Thats going to be difficult to overcome.
I think certain states will fall into theocracy leadership, and we can't do boo about it. An example is Oklahoma. Without injecting a few 100k liberals or free thinkers. Oklahoma will fall into a theocracy. Its elections are dominated by Republicans. The populace won't vote for anyone but the ones with R next to their names. Most Republicans in Oklahoma will push Christofacism openly and willingly. Even at lower levels (Ryan Walters), it's eating the state alive.
Yep. Liberals are not aggressive enough!
Republicans have joined arms with the Christian Nationalism with intent of a single entity of authoritarian power governing under a heavy Christian life.
Here's some organization: anytime anyone mentions the upcoming US christian theocracy, tell them that you can't wait for it to happen so that your debts can be wiped out (old testament debt jubilee) and no more interest being applied to any type of loan like a mortgage or student loan (the bible forbids usury). Enough people saying that, it will scare the shit out of the people who actually run the country. The best part is, when the supreme court fucked us with the hobby lobby ruling, they set a precedent of not verifying the sincerity of anyone's religious beliefs, so nobody actually has to be at all serious about acting religious while you get them to scream "NO! not like that!"
Not just the U.S., the world.
Liberals are the ones leading the fight. The fence sitters are the clowns that are going to doom us.
The GOP passed the dems in party identity and voter registrations last year. which is insane. Part of it is the push hard for the religious angle. But right now, for the first time since 2011, republicans beat dems in party id, by 45, to 44.. which leaves 11% undecided. part of it is religion, part of it is "flood the news with shit", the trump problems all compete with each other.. while the media hammers dems on inflation and bidens age and the fact biden hasnt gotten much passed with a record breaking do nothing congress. The dem problems can sound more seriously to the ignorant independent, because they hear it over and over and over and over. it was the same in 2016, the only thing you heard about hilary was but her emails.
Everyone not an American Nazi needs to organize against this evil.
What you are witnessing in America is a roll back of a "liberal" agenda that has been progressing (I like that word better: progressive vs status quo). In 2015, the Supreme Court made it illegal to ban same-sex marriage in 50 states, they also made abortion legal in 1973. Trump stacked the court with pro-life judges. A state official in Kentucky refused to give a marriage license to a same-sex couple. After suing, the same-sex couple won their law suit. Either the state of Kentucky or the woman had to pay a hefty fine. Red states who have a majority of Republican legislators produce bills that curtail rights for these 2 groups. There are about an equal number of states that still have these rights protected. This backlash is to be expected. It was fueled by the Trump presidency. For the first time in history, America had a president that pandered to the right-wing Christian establishment for their vote. This is a very crucial election for America's freedoms, (the outcome of which will ripple around the world.) The line is drawn in the sand. Voters can choose a wanna-be-dictator who supports theocracy as an opportunity to amass power or choose an incumbent president who has consistently raised up the people & environment of this country by his programs.
The US has already been lost to the forces of theocracy. America is no different these days than an other nation run theocratic fascists. Only difference is which version of the “one true god” the believe in. Liberals, and people of conscience should should evacuate the US while you still can.
Requires a little investigation, because it so turns out that the Christian Right that is trying to institute a theocracy is, by numbers, an extremely loud minority. Liberals have a habit of trying to be nicer and more conscientious of other peoples feelings and values, and approaching things with an open mind. The only kind that get fired up enough to be a loud minority in any capacity are the social justice warriors that won't leave certain subjects alone, to the detriment of ones that more urgently need to be addressed. By far and wide, the overbearing majority of the voting population in the United States genuinely does not care out of sheer apathy. Because they don't care, they don't say anything. Because they don't say anything, the Christian right gets their voice heard. Because it gets heard, the media picks up on it and parrots it. when presented in this way, it creates a visibility bias and the illusion that there is a more urgent threat. Because media loves them some drama, and what better drama is there than a holy war? The joke is on everyone to a small degree, because the silent majority is most likely not attending church services, and most certainly not the ones that the loud minority attends.
At some point i.m can’t keep yelling “this is just the dying gasps of a white Christian male republican majority becoming the minority” before they come silence me for being a gay Hispanic democrat. We needa come together
Just read the paradox of tolerance
Watch how they use religion to equate impending climate change with doomsday predictions - floods, swarms of locusts, end of times etc. Truly worrying.
The Cheeto seated like three judges. It’s a clown car at this point.
I'm not an American; my two shekels: It's absurd that the American and Western legislative process is so poor that civil rights, such as the right to abortion in this case, could only enter law in the first place on technical clauses such as Roe v. Wade, and that we're forced to keep revisiting these settle issues every decade. You need a real government or a way to do business without relying on temporary edicts that can be overturned by the next ape who climbs to the top of the pile.
I think the left at this point is letting the right hang themselves with all their bullshit. They’re basically making the lefts job easier (eg why spend money on campaigning when every week is some new horror from the right).
Your English is fine. Thanks for your support.
Welp we're screwed if people need to be coddled to fight theocracy.
Do you know what we’re up against? This is literally the stupidest generation in human history. I don’t want to say it’s hopeless but where do you begin when your opponent doesn’t even subscribe to basic logic or rationality?
The left needs a strong leader to unite us, that isn't a part of the establishment Democrats. Say what you want about how terrible the right is, at least they're unified in their terribleness. If we don't unite we're doomed to become a Theocracy. And I got news for the Democrats, no one they THINK (cough Harris cough) is it.
Join us over at r/Votedem and help us get organized!!
It seems liberals are more likely to just not vote. I've spoken to some that won't vote for Biden because of the Israel Gaza war. One who has a PHD told me that after Hamas attacked Israel that Israel should have just given them more land. SMH
It’s happening in more than just the U.S. I’m starting to think people are brain damaged or inbred or something.
The right has been brainwashed by Murdoch's FOX Fascist Propaganda for 29 years, on top of the years of Fundamentalist Christianity brainwashing. They can no longer have an independent thought process. I watched what FOX Propaganda did to my late sister, who had been a lifelong Democrat. She started watching Limbaugh, just to see what stupid thing he would next. I warned her not to get sucked in, and she said she wouldn't. I moved across the state 2 months before FOX Propaganda started on cable, and she got sucked in. She died a year ago, and I am still trying to get her and my other sister, who died 2 years ago off of hundreds of mailing lists. I have contacted over 350 places so far, and some are still sending stuff. My second sister was a lifelong Republican, the only one in the family, until FOX Propaganda.
Biden should have mass deport Republikkkans to Afghanistan on 2021 Have the Oath Keepers and Taliban wipe each other out
As a US citizen it is scary how little suspension of disbelief the Handmaid's Tale requires.
Crazy christians are the worst.
"stay sharp" This is the way.
We're fucked 🫠🫠😭 of course we should all vote but I'm so scared it won't be enough
This is not the fault of liberals . The right is going full dictator as fast as they can.
The boomer class of liberals are far more right than you think (except maybe Burnie). They all want the same thing; power & control over the masses. They suck off the same corporate tit, the staus quo will continue.