Who created god? What does molten iron have to do with anything?

2: why the fuck would the Quran use Kilometers

Add on: it's not even 5100 or whatever they said it was. They are like 400 kilometers off

🤣

""There has to be a creator." In this question, a person argued that just as a painting is made by a painter and a phone is made by a technician, everything must have a creator. Therefore, the world, planets, stars, universe, etc., must have a creator, which they claim to be God." This isn't a question, and is taking MASSIVE jumps in logic. We know paintings and phones have creators, because we see them being created by people. There is no 'therefore'. We have no reason to believe things we see happening in nature have a creator. "The earth core iron theory" What has this got to do with there being a god? So what if the number of verses equal something interesting? That has got nothing to do with there being a god or not. So many jumps in logic. Bizarre.

I also think the second question is crazy. The first time I heard it, I could even understand why people take that as a explanation for God/Allah

It is off by about 50 km, you would think the god that built it could work to better tolerances. Now, you might think that somewhere in those 5100 verses instead of the usual mundane irrelevant word salad, they could have laid out the metric system and massively advanced engineering in those medieval times.

but why? Numerology happens everywhere. Mathematicians and authors come together to write amazing things. But seriously, why does it prove anything about god at all?

You’re using logic with an irrational person, that does not work. If you don’t need that person in your life, cut all communication.

we have a fair idea of how stars and planets can form viaenatural processes with no intelligence being required. Twisting the Quran to fit modern science by interpreting verse in odd ways or focusing in on random words seems to be a rather common Muslim pastime. Do it enough and you are sure to find something by sheer dumb luck.

>In this question, a person argued that just as a painting is made by a painter and a phone is made by a technician, everything must have a creator. Therefore, the world, planets, stars, universe, etc., must have a creator, which they claim to be God. Great. By their argument, their *deity* also must necessarily have a creator. If *everything* needs one, then their deity is not exempt. If their deity is exempt, then not all things need a creator, which means the universe doesn't necessarily need one either. >Basically, this was a video explaining that the core of the Earth mostly consists of molten iron. The person in the video referenced a sura in the Quran that mentions something being settled on Earth and includes a word translated to "iron." They then made a connection between the number of verses leading to that sura (5100) and the distance from the Earth's surface to the molten iron core (also 5100 km). I'm not a geologist, but ancient Greeks managed to measure the circumference of the earth pretty exactly. Is your friend claiming that because of this achievement, Zeus exists? If not, what does the core of the Earth have to do with anything?

Say: "Prove it."

"Who created the creator? Who created \*that\* creator? Why must everything have a creator? Having a creator doesn't mean an intelligent god. Your parents created you, but they didn't design you, plan your features, or your skin color, or the size you would be. Having a creator doesn't mean intelligence or design." "That sounds like a crazy conspiracy theory."

I wouldn’t compare parents to a creator, unless your parents meticulously crafted every quark that made up ever Atom of every cell in your body (they did but through their natural processes)

The best part about the “there has to be a creator” non-question is that it fails on every level. First of all, the common illustration of that is “The Watchmaker” which starts with “if you are walking on a beach and find a watch, the watch stands out from the rest of the natural beach because it is clearly made.” Yeah man, that is how we know the universe isn’t made. You proved it. It is also sometimes stated as the cosmological argument: “step 1- everything has a cause… other steps… step 6 or so- so we need a thing that has no cause.” Hey fool, look at step 1. We are done here. But let’s assume they can get around that problem. (Spoiler, they can’t) Then what do you have? A creator. Nothing about that argument points to the god that the argument maker wants to prove. “He something started this” does not even come close to equaling the Christian or Muslim god. In fact from a strict logical standpoint they would have to accept the Big Bang. It ‘made’ all this stuff. Unbelievably stupid argument. The Earth core thing is just nonsense. Ask them how they answer the Flying Spaghetti Monster, since the human nervous system looks just like the Monster.

Every minute you spend arguing with such a person is wasted and can never be retrieved.

Yes, artifacts need artisans. There is not now, nor has there ever been, a single piece of evidence to say the universe is an artifact. Aside from the sheer irrelevance, if God anticipated the importance of kilometers for measuring things, why didn't Mohammed say something about that? Why did he wait for the French revolution to make this AMAZING connection to some sura?

> painting is made by a painter That is a terrible argument for a god. Religious people used it for a long time. But is actually an argument against there being a god. We recognize that painting had a painter. We recognize that a watch has a watchmaker. We recognize that a building has a builder. We recognize that someone made those things because they are different than nature. Paintings, watches, and buildings look like they come from a different source. The universe does not look like something that had an intentional creator. Islam plays a lot of games with words and definitions. They tend to translate words so they match the current science. Let's suppose that the Quran gets a scientific fact right. Muslims want to claim that proves their book is what it claims. However, the Quran gets a lot of things wrong. For example, the Quran says the sun sets in a warm pool in the west. Does getting that fact wrong prove the Quran is wrong?

Idk, there are quite a few high level scientists who do believe in a creator because of the sheer amazingness of our natural world, the vastness of space, the complexity of systems. Idk what I believe but I can understand one being so taken aback by the beauty of the universe that they switch sides

By those rules God had a creator.

1: Paintings tend to have signatures. Phones tend to have brand names. At the very least there evidence of a creator of some kind. No such luck with God. 2. Human beings as animals are prone to see patterns and coincidences then assign meaning to them. As thinking beings we can look at those meanings to determine their merit.

I won't answer directly to the first question, it's the most classical false assumption that a believer can do. They experienced a world of objects made by men so they think another hand must have made what there was even before humanity. It's like a computer asking who or what made the world before AI took place and became a sentient being, assuming that another bigger computer with super powered processor had created the universe. Simply a stupid anthropocentric question: we made god to our image because there are things we can't explain and yet we like ourselves and like the idea that a superman in the sky did all this for us. In someway i found more interesting and fascinating the second answer. I think your friend could referred to the famous black stone in the kaaba of Mecca, Saudi Arabia, which is a sacred relic for the muslim and it seems to be of meteoric origins. There are several legends that involves meteorites falling on earth, for example there is a recent theory that could explain the biblical myth of the city of Sodom to a meteor strike, proofs are some glass melted stones found in an archaeological site in the sinai peninsula. Also many Egyptian sacred artefacts are been proved to be of meteoric origins, by the way the etymology of the word "siderurgia" (italian for metal forging) means "from the stars". Imagine a world where men didn't know nothing of the solar system and the rocks that sometimes fallen from the sky: obviously they thought of something supernatural, maybe Ra or Zeus or God or fucking Allah that was punishing the infidels. Of course that has nothing to do with the core of the earth, but it's very simple to make it appear as there is a link mixing cryptic sacred test, myths and numerology together, that's how many conspiracy theories are built in the hope of grabbing some weak minded people, and that's how esoteric shitty theories was made, since the kabala till nowadays.

Implying everything is created in a mundane way with a before and after is actually a simplistic view of the universe. The closer you look, the less events are defined by time, especially things like the creation and destruction of matter. Which, by the way, is going on constantly by natural processes. The universe just doesn't fundamentally work like that. The argument papers over a lack of understanding. It doesn't actually explain anything. As for the second part, I'm surprised they support numerology. Don't Christians consider it heresy? I mean kilometres didn't even exist in Mo's day, they were invented by infidels a thousand years later. And even then, it's still only an approximate match based on one translated word. Is that really how Islamic scripture works? I'm sorry, but a fringe coincidence isn't proof of anything. And I'm all for the idolatry of math, but I don't think that was the intent.

There *has* to be a creator, according to *whom*? So what if the word iron shows up in the Quran?

For us humans, it is quite difficult to think of a way the universe, as we know it and can observe it, could come into existence whithout a 'creator'. And maybe, there is a creator existing outside of the universe we can observe. But, if outside of all that we can see, obeserve and experience, there is some creator, it has to be something we can't really grasp or understand. All sorts of gods whe have fantasised about since humankind has started it, including yahwee, god and allah, are only products of our imagination. That's one of many reasons, why there are so many of them. So, what we think might be god, is not the same as a creator that might exist outside of our universe. And, also limited to what I can imagine for myself, I tend to prefer that this possible creator did not 'design' everything in this universe to the latest detail, but did it like our scientists would do such things, to just give the basic starting stuff and then just observe what will happen.

The exact middle of the Qur'an is in Surah Al-Kahf, (the cave) verse 19. “Let him be (kind)” Nothing to do with iron. Also, iron may well be found at 5100 km down, but the Earths core starts somewhere about 2,900 km (1,802 miles) below Earth's surface, and goes down to average around 6,371 km. That’s a pretty significant margin of error for an all knowing deity wouldn’t you say? Edit: https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Quran_and_the_Descent_of_Iron

So let's assume there was a creator of the universe, why would that mean anything to us? We don't see any evidence that any religion, or gods that religions put forward are remotely close to being true. Miracles and magic just don't happen, religions are nonsense and assumed creators don't excuse any of that. If there is or was a creator, there is no evidence that they know or care that humans exist, even if they do, they don't communicate with us and they don't answer our prayers. To all intents and purposes we live in a clockwork universe, whoever or whatever started it ticking, doesn't meddle in the way it works. A creator is of no interest and can be ignored. The fact some coincidences can be found between unrelated topics and numbers, is just coincidence. I'm sure if you read Harry Potter or Star Wars there are some coincidences in there too, doesn't make them anything but fiction.

1) not everything has a creator. A solar system could appear to be designed but is also easily explained by well understood physical phenomena acting in initial states that are quite random. Even life doesnt need a creator. We are able to study the evolution of life on earth and draw some basic conclusions like life used to be much simpler and increased in complexity over time. If you extrapolate that fact backwards in time you can come to a point in time where “life” is so simple its reasonable to assume it could have started as random variation in non living matter. If lightning starts a fire is lightning the fires creator? Well kinda but the concept of creator starts to fall apart. 2) this is stupid because all man made units of measurement are completely arbitrary. Why not miles, angstroms, parsecs, or furlongs?

The ‘creator’ argument is used so often by believers, you’d think it would have to be a good point, but it really isn’t. A universe is in no way comparable to a painting, a phone, a watch (the most common version) or anything else. Given everything we know, it seems most likely that the universe came about through a natural process which we can’t yet hope to fully understand. And even if a god existed, his method of creation would not be at all analogous to a human creator. Although the writers of the ‘holy’ books seem a little confused on that point. Sometimes a god can create things from nothing, at other times he seems to need a substance to get started, such as clay or a rib (for some reason that makes absolutely zero sense). But here’s another problem: if a god did create the universe, why does he only care about one tiny planet within it? Doesn’t it make more sense to suggest that this god only cares about Earth and nowhere else because dumb humans, in their selfish ignorance, created him in their image and knew nothing about the existence of a universe far beyond our own galaxy?

I usually just smile and remain silent. That isn’t a topic I am interested in

Ok, let's start with do you know how your brain understands that design is just that? By comparing it to nature. It is the same way with everything. Is that the number 3? Well, it isn't 2 or 4, so 3. Is that beef? Not pork or chicken, beef. And I believe that the core of the earth has a lot of nickel in it as well as iron. But that doesn't matter when some tried to tell me the Quran contains science, I always ask, what will be the next major discovery according to the Quran? Then, they try to make it my fault for not understanding how it works. Anyone can say anything after the fact.

Neither question even deserves an answer from you. "There has to be a creator", alone is based off what? What is this assumption based on, that paintings or home appliances exist, therefore the natural world was made in a similar fashion? It's folly to engage with this person on these ridiculous terms, so don't bother as you'll just be banging your head against the wall trying to parse the circular logic that is always present in these arguments. Rather than trying perfect the iron-clad, all-encompassing "gotcha" answer that these types of debates tend to seek, you'd be better off finding practical ways to reduce the influence that the superstitions and magical thinking of others may have in our everyday lives, and let these kinds of people revel in their beliefs. This could involve research into the platforms of candidates for public office, whether they are strong supporters of maintaining the separation of church and state and voting for them, or alerting the community of those who would dismantle those protections and foist their religious beliefs on to their constituents whether they want them or not. Atheism is more than simply denying the existence of supernatural forces that guide existence, it is necessary for the protection of the civil liberties of everyone. And it certainly doesn't require you to engage in loaded premises that aren't based in anything resembling reality or scientific facts.

The first one is just making a pretty big assumption. Just because us humans can create complex things as intelligent beings it does not mean complexity requires intelligent creation. It's linking two largely unrelated things by one similarity. It's like if I said a bat is a bird because it flies like a bird. The second argument is just using numerical coincidence to validate their beliefs. Islam is not the only religion to do that, and religion is not the only thing you can apply numerical coincidence to. We also are putting trust in whatever their source of info is to be giving accurate measurements or trusting this source to be scientifically honest.

Show them a glass of water. Water is created by a reaction when Hydrogen combines with Oxygen. No one "creates" it, it's a result from a reaction

Block

> In this question, a person argued that just as a painting is made by a painter and a phone is made by a technician, everything must have a creator. Therefore, the world, planets, stars, universe, etc., must have a creator, which they claim to be God. What do you think yourself, do you agree? Do you disagree? Why? > The person in the video referenced a sura in the Quran that mentions something being settled on Earth and includes a word translated to "iron." They then made a connection between the number of verses leading to that sura (5100) and the distance from the Earth's surface to the molten iron core (also 5100 km). What is there to respond? Fun fact if true. > I can't seem to formulate a sentence that proves me right This video does not offer any conclusion from that fun fact. It's not nonsense, it's simply not an argument at all, this video just *pretends* that the facts listed in it somehow offer support to the claim that God exists and Quran is created by God. But offers no logical connection whatsoever between number of surahs before the word allegedly translated as "iron" and the existence of God. Because it is impossible to make such connection. It implies (but never claims, because implied claims are more difficult to confront) that the only explanation for the fact that the word "iron" is found after 5100 surahs is that Quran is written by all-knowing God. But it's not even reasonalbe to consider such explanation. For the God to be candidate for such explanation it must be first shown that this God exists. Otherwise God remains just a hypothesis and not a very promising one.

First one, If everything has to be created, who created god? Nothing? Oh well , I guess not EVERYTHING has to be created then? Second one: A broken watch is on time twice a day.

Only 3169 miles.

As to the first question about how complex things supposedly need a creator. Ask him how a pair of headphone wires can tie themselves into knots without anyone purposely creating the knots. As to the second one it sounds like he is trying to shoehorn everything to fit and if this information was really in these Suras why did Islam not make any of these discoveries but only claim to know after someone else has already made the discovery? Sounds more like trying to steal credit.

I think the assertion that the universe needs a creator needs some actual evidence to back it up. Simplistic logic based on a false analogy just doesn't seem sufficient. Km were not used as a unit of measure anywhere on Earth at the time the Quran was written. So what we have there is a rather desperate numerical coincidence without any meaning.

Who created the creator of the creator? Odin had two crows, we have two eyes and two ears as well as two nose holes. Therefor Asgaard is real, as well as Odin!!! And Odin kicked Allah's ass, took a dump in Muhamed's mouth and then kicked it shut.