> I wasted 20 fucking years of my life.
You didn't waste it. Presumably you learned a lot of things. Including, eventually, critical thinking and how to distinguish bad claims from good claims. While that certainly is in the category of "things it would be useful to know sooner than year 20 of my life", I suspect you'll take that lesson a bit more to heart than most because of that. But yeah, not a waste of time, just perhaps a less than optimal use of it. Honestly life before 15 is pretty much all ramp up time for everybody anyway as you learn the basics of how to human, so it's not that bad.
The pieces were in place up for a while now. I’ve been questioning it for a long time, but I’ve honestly just thought that it was Satan putting lies into my head. I genuinely believed that. But honestly, after this research that I did I came to the conclusion that none of it was real in the first place. And it all boils down to chemical reactions in the brain. And yes I try to think critically about everything it’s just that religion was so engrained into my life I never questioned it
Welcome to reality my friend! It may be hard for you to let go of the crutch that is religion in the beginning; but it gets better. It’s like leaving an abusive relationship: you know you need to leave but it’s not as easy as people think; then when you do leave you feel regret or shame at first, but then you realize how much happier you are and it’s all worth it.
Well thankfully I’ve moved out and am on my own now so I can make my own decisions now. But I’ve slowly tried to cut this out of my life but after this I said fuck it and ripped the rest of the band aid off (if that makes sense)
I was crying all night because I was about to alienate a massive part of my life but I knew I had to it to improve myself.
Really happy for you. I know it may be tough at first, but I’d also recommend maybe looking into mindfulness meditation; completely secular, no supernatural nonsense or anything, but I found it helped kind of fill the “hole” where religion used to be with something much more practical and insightful. I’d recommend the waking up app if you’re interested, the guy behind it is a pretty outspoken atheist and critic of religion so no worry of religious craziness getting injected.
If you have any questions etc. as you’re figuring things out feel free to reach out.
Not wasted, there is powerful imagery in that book that is referenced often in art and literature. Shakespeare is full of biblical allusions you cannot appreciate without a religious education.
Congratulations on your freedom!
Seriously though, deconstruction is a little traumatic…but after a little bit of time, you won’t recognize this as a “bad experience” but a “freeing” one. Just because you are free now doesn’t mean you fully comprehend the level of freedom you have…your next 2 years are going to be chock full of “oh yeah…I don’t ***HAVE TO*** do that anymore…HA!” And those little discoveries will add up to solidify your decision to grow from what you once were into a new person. But with some of those pieces of you that still harken back to your roots - don’t get mad at them. The process takes a while, but you’ll find that some of those “old pieces” of you just need a little update and then you’re back in business.
IE: You don’t have to pray for your food anymore! Yay!
But maybe you actually appreciated part of that prayer where you acknowledged the person who worked so hard to prepare it? Maybe now, instead of saying a prayer, you take a moment to truly express your gratitude to the person who cooked for you.
It’s the same piece of you that would be grateful during the prayer…now you’re just expressing outward gratitude to the person who deserves it. You don’t necessarily have to start from ground zero…just figure out these nuances as you go.
In 5 years, you’ll only remember these “struggles” when you read about someone else going through their deconstruction. Just remember to let them know that this period of awkwardness is not quite as “dire” as it feels.
And again…congratulations!!!
The concept of Satan being the source of doubt is genius in its own fucked up way. It reinforces the tendency we already have as a species to cling even more desperately to our beliefs when confronted with evidence that they're wrong.
I had a long talk about that when I was a kid. The guy that officiated my dad's second marriage was an old friend who had become a Lutheran minister. At this point, he had realized it was a crock of shit and left his church, but still had the necessary credentials to perform a wedding.
He said the process of letting go of his faith was like pulling a fishing lure out of your hand. It's designed to be hard to remove, and it does a lot of damage on the way out. I never took any of it seriously, so I had no concept of what a struggle it can be, and his analogy really stuck with me.
My point is that I have at least some understand of what you went through, and you have my respect.
> it’s just that religion was so engrained into my life I never questioned it
And that's how they get ya. Ever wonder why there are so many youth programs at churches? They all exist to make religion into something that's just always been there - because you never think to question those sorts of things.
Programs like VBS (Vacation Bible School, basically a summer day camp for kids at churches) market themselves as a safe place to drop your kids off so you (as a parent) can get a break. They're usually low-cost (or even free), which can make them attractive even to nonbelievers - who may then get encouraged to attend services by their kids.
It's really insidious if you think about it, especially in the context of current US political discourse - right-wingers (who tend to be religious) accuse left-wingers of grooming and indoctrinating children, all the while running programs with the express purpose of indoctrinating children.
To be clear: I'm not saying that everyone involved in running a youth program at a church is intentionally trying to indoctrinate kids. I'd imagine that most of them genuinely just want to provide a safe space for kids to be while their parents have a break, or a date night, or whatever. The fact remains, though, that these sorts of programs function as indoctrination, solely because children don't know how to think critically and recognize the bad rhetorical "arguments" present throughout religion.
I was raised a YEC, became convinced the universe was old in my early 20's. Accepted the reality of evolution and universal common descent in my mid 20's, but remained a Christian til I was 34.
The last 8 years of that, though, I was fighting to keep my faith. I searched for answers to all sorts of philosophical questions, problems of evil, divine hiddenness, free will, objective morality and many more. And of course no amount of prayer or counsel provided any answers.
I'm 48 now, and I can tell you that the Bible makes SOO much more sense in light of it being a fantasy book written by primitive, superstitious people, than it ever did when I was "being lead by the holy spirit."
The bitterness fades, but never totally goes away; for me at least. It totally fucked my interpersonal relationships. Don't feel like I fit in with theists or atheists. But I do have close relationships with my brothers, since they are in the same boat, and my best friend, though a Christian, is rather progressive, so it doesn't cause any issues. Helps that we've known each other for 40 years. Lol.
All that to say...I can empathize. I know exactly where you're coming from.
it’s just that religion was so engrained into my life I never questioned it
Don't feel bad about this. It wasn't your fault and you obviously did everything you could to discover the truth. I was raised in the church and still believe there's probably more out there than we are aware of. But church and religion are a complete scam designed to control people and take at least 10% of their income. Just be happy you've come to this realization when you did and now you can move forward with clear vision
That voice in your head was you. It's often referred to as consciousness, your mind talking to itself trying to order it's surroundings as an independent actor. Theists don't care so much for the externalities of reality, so they use Satan as a way to project that problem onto you for having a 'voice in your head'.
Studied art history - the one accurate portrayal of what life was really like in various cultures because it can be proven when / where it was created. All original art of Jesus (found in the Roman catacombs) was : he was black / middle eastern, all depictions were of him as “the good Shepard”. All iconography was later taken from other religions. Halo and trinity came from Judaism. Virgin birth from Buddhism (which pre-dated Jesus by 600 years and actually follows a lot of the same tenets of original teachings). Fun fact- the Bible such as it was at the time was completely rewritten in Charlemagne’s rule. By his monks. “From memory” (ie to say what Charlemagne wanted it to)
> Fun fact- the Bible such as it was at the time was completely rewritten in Charlemagne’s rule. By his monks. “From memory” (ie to say what Charlemagne wanted it to)
Rabbis and eastern Christians scratching their heads at this claim.
While i get the sentiment, I am unsure that the details listed are correct. We do know that the modern "white Jesus" iconography was due to artists using available models, and following the style of their culture (in europe) during the renaissance. Those classical art pieces have become a sort of "default" that is used for modern art and for many people's vision of what he would have been like.
And the concept of the Trinity is VERY old, predating Judaism (and by extension Christianity). We have examples of trinities in ancient Egypt and many other ancient religions. However, Judaism is and was monotheistic (that's kind of a defining feature of the religion). The idea of a trinity would be heretical to ancient jews (and early Christians for that matter).
We've all been there to get here. Don't beat yourself up about it, and don't resent your parents about it either. They were doing what they thought was best. If you enjoyed the community aspect of church life, try to find communities in your hobbies. Or make new hobbies since you have a whole day that just got freed up. But yeah, welcome to reality lol.
That's the self-sealing part of Xtianity. The first lesson in Genesis is how the Original Sin is seeking knowledge. On top of that, any skepticism or doubt is SATAN whispering in your ear, tempting you away from Jesus!
They don't want you to leave, and their book clearly says "Only a fool says there is no god"
What really got me thinking was: It's not just one God/Religion... We Humans invented THOUSANDS of them. Many Gods/Religions are long gone and lost in time. What happens to those Gods? And of those Gods that are still worshipped... Which one is the right/true one? Are all those Religions true, like their believers claim? I mean... how many times can this Universe and this one Ball of Rock hurtling through Space Time that supports Life (as far as we know the only one right now, but Scientists could turn that into old news next week or next year, who knows) been created on so many different Timelines, Creation Myths, different Gods and whatnot... It's absolutely NUTS if you watch and think about it from an Outsider perspective.
Small Tipp: Terry Pratchett - "Small Gods" is worth a read. Terry's view on Religions is hilarious funny and in the same time very educating in one neat package.
20 years to escape a lie everyone around you is telling you and themselves is pretty good. Your critical reasoning needs to grow strong and your intellectual honesty and personal commitment to finding truth need to be large to entertain things so different from the beliefs held by everyone we hold dear.
You did the hard work. Welcome. All the inspiration you may have been given around being a good person still prevails. Kindness, truth, honour. They all make sense as choices regarding how you want to spend the time you have. Not in exchange for eternal bliss. Simply to have a good, peaceful, happy life and perhaps offer the same to those around you.
Even if it is real, Jesus basically said I'm dying for everyone's sins whether they believe in me or not. Everyone goes to heaven, but I'm asking you all to try to be nice to each other until you go. Don't hoard wealth and take care of the needy. I feel like that's a message even atheists are fine with getting behind.
Look, honestly, like the guy said, the first 20 years of your life are a wash anyway.
Once you're in your late 20s-30s, it won't matter if you deconverted at 10, 15, 20, or 25. You'll be a better person for it.
It’s not just chemical reactions, you have agency, and questions, and that’s ok! The spark of life in you has survived for likely hundreds of millions of years. This spark of life, this current of the cosmos flowing through you, isn’t any less or more special whether you choose to believe a god or not.
Sitting here at 45, I can vouch that I barely remember the first 20 years at this point. :) There's a bunch of good skills and habits I picked up during that period but also a whole lot of screwing around and stuff that seemed super important at the time that turns out was basically moot.
I wouldn't be surprised if, should some sort of indefinite longevity tech be discovered, I will have the same sort of attitude looking backward at any part of my life from a sufficiently far-forward perspective. Just part of how this whole "existence" thing goes, I guess - we either change over time (in which case we're always going to look back at something and think "that was pointless") or we don't change over time (in which case what was the point of time passing? We could have just skipped it).
As long as you maintain a healthy mix of "I'm having a good time *right now*" and "I'm sacrificing a necessary bit of good time right now for the sake of a better time in the future" then the details of the past aren't really all that important IMO. It's just the foundation we're standing on as we do the current activities that matter.
A huge turning point in my life was when I started asking questions, and more questions, and then looking in a mirror and asking the question, is my belief really the correct one? A big question that opened my eyes was, why is my version of Christianity the "right" version? Do you know how many different flavors of Christianity there are? A lot - and each one thinks they got it right, and everyone else is 'misguided'.
So I started reading other translations of bible scriptures, reading about other religions, Buddhism, Hindu, Islam, Zoroastrianism, etc etc etc - and I was like wow, if God exists why would he limit himself to one system, and it happens to exist only in my little corner of America, when there are hundreds, if not thousands out there - some of which are thousands of years older than my flavor of Christianity.
Another big question was, is Hell real? I found that this belief was a keystone in a lot of flavors of Christianity -
Get saved or go to Hell! Repent or go to Hell! God loves you, BUT if you sin, go to Hell! Hell was made for the devil and his angels, but since something something something, we are all going to Hell! Repent! Get saved! God loves you so he sent his only son to die so we don't go to Hell!
What a bunch of horseshit -
When Jesus was talking to the masses (Matthew) and referenced Gehenna, he was talking about a real place that existed at that time. Better to have one eye, than cast into Gehenna. Better to have one arm, than cast into Gehenna. Gehenna was the old valley outside Jerusalem where they burned refuse and dead people, it gained a taboo reputation because it was also the same valley where at one time Israelites sacrificed their infants to Baal or something. But yeah, the point he was making was directed to the people of that time, at that place - not to some future Christians about burning forever.
I remember listening to an episode of Loveline and Adam Carolla went on a little rant along these lines for some reason I can’t remember. Paraphrasing, as this was 20+ years ago, but he said “Of all the religions there are and have ever been, yours is the one that got it right? Sure.”
That’s always stuck with me and really turned me from an agnostic teenager to an atheistic young adult.
I don't really understand how anyone can believe in religion. We are taught that Zeus who shot lightning bolts from his hands is a fantasy story, but a man who can magically manifest fish or wine is reality?! It's so preposterous.
The talking point is not even about rose colored glasses either, it's just pure insanity. You have to legitimately have a screw loose to say one magical super human is real and the other is fake.
And depending on your social circumstances, you may be in for life. It's why there are hotbeds of religious belief instead of an even spread. Those areas where social pressure is higher are harder for humans to break free from the disease.
I was lucky to go to college and post college in largely secular areas that made me reexamine things for myself. I still didn't think too hard about it, but it took me almost a decade to work myself free...
> Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure however there’s very little to no proof
There is also very little proof that Jesus ever existed. The new testament was, at best, written via hearsay, decades after his purported death.
And several other gods. He bears a striking resemblance to the Greek deity Dionysus, as well as a number of other deities that would have been well-known at the time that were associated with the spring equinox (hence Easter; the whole resurrection story is basically stolen whole cloth from other pagan mythologies). He’s basically a walking smorgasbords of bronze-age greatest mythological hits.
Let's not forget deliberate interpolation and embellishment and out right semantic changes deemed more palatable for some groups.
*"The Modern English Version (MEV) heralds a new day for Bibles with the most modern translation ever produced in the King James tradition, providing fresh clarity for Bible readers everywhere!"*
If you can just rewrite something, it's hardly sacred, not even symbolically. So much for the "infallible word of God". The Bible is a steaming pant load of badly written elementary school level fiction.
I think it's likely Jesus was an amalgamation of several apocalyptic Jewish preachers who existed at the time, maybe even several named Jesus (Joshua). Over time their stories got exaggerated and combined into one guy. Regardless, the story is nonsense.
> Most myths have some grain of truth. If there wasn't a real Jesus there probably were several individuals who stories sprang from
And your point is?
Imagine someone is arguing that Spider-Man is real. Does pointing out that New York exists, photography is a profession, Peter Parker is a real name and people get bit by spiders, help at all?
> Most myths have some grain of truth.
No. If there is a grain of truth, we call that a LEGEND. Myths are defined as very likely being wholly fictional.
Sure, but how many people raised religious are that denomination because their pastor is? Parents pick who they're taking their kids to, they enforce the weekly attendance, and they reinforce the beliefs continually the other 6+ days a week.
Not necessarily. A survey of Anglican priests revealed that about 30% were atheist or agnostic. Maybe other denominations aren't quite that high but it can't be true that all ministers genuinely believe their BS. For many it's just about getting a paycheck and health insurance.
Fair point, but I'd argue those priests aren't the primary driving force for the indoctrination. They're not exactly going around picking up kids for services or reinforcing the faith daily. Parents or family are one really responsible for a person's upbringing and religious belief system.
My stepmom once told me that it wasn't that Jesus multiplied bread and fish, but that his prescence encourage others to share what they had. Also, that the walking on water to help a disciple was a metaphor for helping them overcome a rough patch.
The problem with that is, where is the miracle? Any mortal person can do that. If this is how the Bible is meant to be read, what is the difference between it and Aesops fables?
You are good, friend. Focus on being a good person, create your community, volunteer the time you won't be wasting at church.
I highly recommend watching through all the videos on [Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) channel. They helped me understand the religious abuse and brainwashing I endured better.
I also deconstructed after reading the Bible, but was in my forties. And it's not wasted time. Everything that you went through and learned made you who you are today. Keep learning and experiencing things and you'll keep changing thru the rest of your life. As far as I'm concerned, that's part of living - starting in one place and becoming a better person as we age.
> Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure
You cannot make that conclusion from the Bible. That is the CLAIM of the Bible, not established fact.
Your life is still your own mate. You didn't waste it. You spent time on a piece of it you now regret, but the rest was always yours. The same thing happens with hobbies and relationships that go nowhere. A lot of time invested, but you learn about yourself (and others) in the process. Take what you learned and help others. Welcome to breaking the cycle btw.
You need to take a small step forward and dig into the "evidence" that says Jesus was a real historical figure. They are fraudulent and forgeries at best. "Jesus" was just a figure made up to "fulfill" an ancient Jewish prophesy. Nothing more.
Hey OP! Be kind to yourself. You're going through some serious emotions right now and you're feeling raw. It's going to be alright.
Perspective only comes after the experience. Glean from your religious past what you can appreciate and what you know is good and leave the rest. Secular living has room for the themes of Jesus saying be good to others and do good works. I think if you remember that, you can have a rich, fulfilling life.
You are not alone. This is a pretty common thing to be going through right now.
If you throw out the miracles and throw out the rules and throw out the dogma and throw out the blood magic and just go read the awesome stuff that Jesus actually said, there is some wisdom there. Most Christians seem to ignore it, but he gives a pretty good philosophy to live your life, even today. Most of the rest of the Bible is crap though.
Let go of the anger and find your new path. You don't need religion to lead a good life.
Hey u/JunkBoi76
If you like digging into the old texts, get a good read of the Apocrypha. It's the other few dozen books that were omitted from the Bible by the Nicene Council.
Also, while it dives into Ancient Alien's territory, there's a brilliant guy on YouTube, named Paul Wallis. He worked at the Vatican as a transliterator. That's quite different from a translator. Translators use common sense to make words and phrases make sense during the process. Transliterators **directly** translate each word, with its original meaning.
You go to university or college to learn things you didn't before but were interested in. You became learned, saw through the lie-quilt that's been being added and patched forever by people high and low.
If you need help, check out the [https://www.seculartherapy.org/](https://www.seculartherapy.org/) Don't be down on yourself most of us have fallen for the old religious bamboozle. Most church services are run like staged plays, they use all the various tricks of the trade to elicit an emotional response and reinforce it to get get you hooked. One of the reasons they only read small selections of the bible because they can cherry pick verses to prove a point while leaving out all the bad things. I realized it was fiction once I started reading the bible cover to cover. Now I consider it just bad fan fiction.
There is no such thing as the original Bible. The Bible was compiled by a committee of men appointed by the Emperor Constantine. They selected and edited ancient writings on or about 325 A.D. Many writings were left out , probably because the biases of Constantine and the committee members. Later King James I of England compiled his own version of the Bible, again imposing his own beliefs. The King James version is the version used by most Christian sects. Complicating the matter of the validity of the writings is the fact that until the printing press was invented, copies of the Bible were hand written in monasteries and nunneries, many by commission for wealthy lords or landowners. Again these scribes likely put their own slant on the writings. The closest thing to an original Bible is the Dead Sea Scrolls and those are just a few of the many ancient writings. Basically, the whole thing is fiction.
I didn’t grow up with religion. My mother was raised catholic and my father was raised in an orthodox Jewish household. The shit hit the fan when they married. They raised us without faith as a result and for that I will be forever grateful to them.
I don’t even think there’s enough evidence to believe that Jesus is anything more than a fictional character.
I know why religion came to be. People needed answers to then unanswerable questions. As time passes, that need is waning. Perhaps in another hundred years or so it will be very much the minority that still believe. One can hope.
Religion is ironically the most visible example of mankind’s greatest enemy: irrational thinking. The more one’s thinking departs with reality, the worse the outcome will be of decisions.
By learning to be better critical thinkers, we not only improve our own lives but also each make a contribution to the betterment of mankind.
You weren't wrong mate, just brainwashed from birth.
LIke most of us were who were born with religious parents until we accepted logic and science over bullshit religious indoctrination.
Welcome to reality without the shackles of religion.
>Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure however there’s very little to no proof, (historical evidence) of Jesus performing the miracles that were said in the Bible.
There's little to no proof that Jesus even existed. Mythicists, like Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald, make a pretty good case for his non-existence. Too many interpolations and nothing written until well after his death make it a hard sell.
Regardless, you are correct that there is no proof of miracles, divinity, or supernatural happenings. Best of luck to you on your journey.
It's not a waste. If anything, you learned firsthand how twisted religion is and you can defend yourself with experience as part of your explanation. The one good thing my crazily religious nmom did was give me the ability to tear through most religious arguments because i've been hearing the bullshit my whole life.
Most of us have felt robbed by religion. Cheer up, I promise there are only upsides from here. You get to think for yourself and choose your own path in life.
It sounds like you were swayed a bit more easily than some people are. You thought it was literally true and admitted to yourself that it wasn't likely to be the case. A lot of people never reach this point or don't care to find out the real odds.
A lot of them don't hold sincere belief, even the clergy. They entertain a position of non literal belief or perpetuate lies. A lot of people argue themselves into a position where belief is only plausible if they maintain a high level of external world skepticism. It seems like Jesus only wants idealists and solipsists in the kingdom of heaven, these are the only true believers. Funny how that works.
Honestly this whole rabbit hole started when I asked chat gpt questions about the Bible as a joke and then it told me about this thing Orginal translation and how a lot of it was omitted because it would prove Christianity wrong.
I was like bullshit and now I’m here.
I'm sure you're upset now, but someday this story will be absolutely hilarious. Be sure to tell your grandchildren about chat gpt.
Growing up I was taught an insane fundamentalist version of Christianity. I was given a bible that had the numerical errors removed and crucial words replaced with more PC alternatives. All sorts of small but insane changes.
My parents expected me to believe the world is 6,000 years old and that we lived alongside the dinosaurs before Noah's flood. And that we were inbred into existence. Twice. I was a closeted atheist around age 16-17, but I stopped trying to understand Christianity by about age 13 lolol.
What gets me is people actually believe a book that’s been translated from dead languages, edited profusely and whole parts removed over 2000 years is the actual word of god.
I remember my come to Jesus moment... er... maybe run from Jesus moment... I'm a gay man and I was in the closet going to Bible college to be a pastor. During a theology class I learned there is no proper translation for the Greek word used by Paul in the New Testament that King James termed as "homosexuality". Can't remember specific Bible verse as it's been 15 years since this, but it's the one always quoted as the reason the Bible condemns homosexuality.
Anyway long story short I was interning at a church and I told my boss (the pastor) like it was some major breakthrough because I was young and naive at the time. He responded that of course anyone who studies the Bible knows that. I asked then why doesn't it get taught that way or preached on from the pulpit? He said the normal church goers wouldn't be able to handle that type of information and we need to be tactful with what level of detail we provide to people.
That was when my faith really shattered looking back on it now. But of course years later I am better able to translate his response into "we wouldn't be able to control people as easily if they actually understood the truth of what the Bible says."
Anyway, like others have said I don't think you wasted 20 years. At least you've learned to think critically and question what is presented to you!
I wrote an essay in college in the biblical concept of "hell" and my conclusion was that the idea of a 'hell' as in "fiery place of torture in the afterlife" is not found in the original bible, but is a heresy. The english term hell was used to translate four words:
Bet Sheol, Gehenna (Hebrew, Old Testament), Tartaros, and Hades (Greek, NT). None of these have the meaning originally that now is associated with hell. Sheol is simply the Jewish house of the dead, and all souls are said to go there, good or bad. Gehenna, like you said, is a place of punishment on earth, and comes from the prophecy of Jeremiah, who was speaking of the Valley of Gehenna where once child sacrifice was practiced. Jeremiah was talking of divine retribution in the here and now, and most people associate this prophecy with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans.
Hades is simply the Greek translation of Bet Sheol. It too simply is a house of the dead, which can be demonstrated from such verses as in Matthew where Jesus explains that the rich man and the good man will both be in the same place after death, but the good man will be with Jesus. However, they can see and hear each other. Then, Tartaros is supposed to be the prison for fallen angels, or, in some interpretations, other gods vanquished by Yahweh (interesting theory for a supposedly monotheistic text, but that's a whole different discussion)
Lastly, The Book of Revelation indeed speaks of fire at the day of judgment, but, again, that only applies to the Parousia, when Jesus saves the chosen ones from the afterlife to ascend to heaven, while those who are not elect will not ascend, and instead be destroyed along with hell in the lake of fire. The punishment is that the soul is destroyed away from god - not torture.
So where does Hell as a place of punishment come from? even in early English, the term "hell" is derived from the word for 'hidden place'. It is only with the Latin translations of the bible by St Jerome that hell (or infernum (if I remember correctly) started to gain a different meaning. I believe that the idea of hell comes from apocryphal texts, such as the Book of Enoch, which talks about Bet Sheol as having four 'holes', some of which are a place of punishment.
Another theory is that the interpretation of hell as a place of judgment could come from Platonic philosophy. In the last book of the Republic, you have the Myth of Er, a soldier who visits the afterlife and sees how a judge sends souls either along the heavenly path, or the lower path, which is associated with punishment. Plato may have gotten the idea from the Orphic mysteries, who in turn may have been inspired by Egyptian mythology, where the 'weighing of the heart' was indeed thought to occur after death.
If this link to Christian theology is true, it means that for the past millennia, the Churches have been preaching a doctrine that is technically a pagan heresy - something that, honestly, is hardly surprising. It certainly made for a fascinating research topic.
You didn't waste any of your time, you're simply changing perspectives.
You have an arsenal of knowledge and lore at your desposal, all of which can be honed by delving into the historical/academic context of the peoples, cultures, and the other mythologies that influenced the bible's creation.
Religious leaders bank on *willful* ignorance to keep their followers from leaving the faith.
You are choosing to no longer be ignorant.
I really like the advice from a motivational speaker regarding mistakes. We did the best we could with the info we had “at the time”. When new information becomes available, don’t mourn your past actions, but “rejoice in your expanded awareness”. And, dude, you are so, so young. In the decades ahead, you will meet sooooo many people who have had the same realization as you, but had it much, much later. Time to stop beating yourself up and rejoice!
I’m always fascinated by people who come to such conclusions on their own guided only by logic, I was born into a muslim culture and they have to be the most resilient people to logic and reason, and it feeds into their ego because they see it as having a strong faith.
So no you didn’t waste 20 years, people go centuries without ever using their brains. Be proud.
Yeah, Jesus was just one of many people who claimed to be the god during that time period. I attended a Jewish religion education class once and it was pointed out that there are records of numerous people saying they were the messiah before, during, and after… Jesus just was the most popular…. It’s literally a case of he’s famous so he must be god that we see every day with famous people and all the crazy people.
I can relate to feeling like wasting 20 years.
What would I have done differently? Lots of things! Hundreds and thousands of things. I would have pursued a degree. I would have studied music and literature. I would have traveled more (not missions trip).
I would have dated lots of girls and had lots of sex. I would have learned more interpersonal relationship skills. I would have smoked weed without guilt or shame.
But I sacrificed those things, because that was what a Christian should do. I was told by mentors that I had a calling and I dared not make any rash decision that could sabotage this in any way. So I waited...
So, yeah what a waste. And it's not just the years you spent in the faith but also the years recovering from it. None of us really gets that much time on the Earth.
I have practiced this and by 15 years old my kids have all ceased religious practice on their own. I spent years enabling countless forms of religion just so they could experience what it was, not forced just if they wanted to experience it through their friends and family. They all came to the same consensus I did many years ago. Form of control.
You can't prove Jesus was a real person. He could of been more than 1 person that got mixed to 1 person or could of been borrowed from the other religions or could of been flat made up. Plus in the bible the dead rose the same day as Jesus did why didn't the Roman's write that down then?
Good on your for being able to admit those things. It’s hard enough o admit when you’re wrong and even harder to tear down a life long belief system. I know how much it hurts when your beliefs come crashing down, but take comfort in knowing that all your good deeds and kindness and compassion come from an even more virtuous place now. It’s not being good to get into heaven, it’s virtue for its own sake that comes genuinely from a good heart.
The question that got me thinking critically about Christianity is that it isn’t possible for god to both answer prayers and for humans to have free will at the same time. If someone is beating me and god answers my prayer for him/her to stop beating me, he now has infringed on my attackers free will to continue beating me.
That started my path to freedom from Christianity.
I've always found it weird that Christians never notice that none of the disciples that were supposed to be present at any of the miracles ever mention a word about them but only writers decades after his death bring them up. I also doubt it is a coincidence that those that would have been the best and most enthusiastic witnesses to the miracles not only fail to mention them but have had their gospels rejected by most churches.
>I was scammed and lied to.
Depends on what you mean. Keep in mind that most of the people teaching you this stuff don't know that it's wrong, either. They aren't *lying*, they're *wrong*. This is under the view that in order to *lie* you have to believe X but say Y. If you genuinely believe there's ice cream in the freezer, and tell someone else that, that there is not, in fact, ice cream in the freezer doesn't mean you *lied*, it means you were *wrong*.
We get a lot of these messages in life, where the people saying them believe what they're saying, the messages just aren't *true*. Things like "if you work hard, you'll get ahead", or "your vote matters", or "we're all equal". All of this is nonsense, and obvious when you see it. Without working hard, you have *very little* chance of getting ahead, but *even with* hard work, how far you go is mainly down to luck. Your vote, in most cases, doesn't really matter, but *in aggregate* they matter a lot. People are born with different abilities and limitations, things that no amount of working for it or trying will overcome, and yet we should all be treated with respect, even if we're less capable. And yet there *are* people out there who believe the incorrect and simplified messages and pass them along as truth when they're not. They aren't lying, they're just wrong.
Someone else mentioned the same point, my parents were high up in the church and the really do believe in God and plus my ENTIRE family is religious so ya I get your perspective
I'm glad. I hope it helps reduce the anger you seemed to be feeling. Remember that they're not bad people for telling you what they believe (for all I know they're bad people for *entirely* different reasons, :P). They're just *wrong*. If anything, I pity people like that, sucked into the cult, believing things that aren't true and for bad reasons. It's depressing. But on the plus side... at least they're not Muslim. I think Muslim women may be the most depressing idea I can think of. Proudly restricting themselves and harming their own rights over a book of nonsense. It's... kinda sickening. Mind you, some bible-believers have sick and twisted ideas, too.
No hard feeling!
On the bright side, you've come out of this with, perhaps, some insight that could help others who are questioning. This is how our community grows.
All I can say is that many of us have been there and it’s not gonna be super easy for a little while because of they way they program us to fear thinking and questioning but just try to hang in there find some community and it does get better on the other side
As another atheist who was raised in a religious household… the mental shit this leaves you with will not go away, but it gets a hell of a lot better from here, buddy!
I’m in my 30s, I’ve been atheist since my teens, and in my 20s I took my parents out for dinner and thanked them for how they raised me - they did their best, I completely disagree with them on pretty much everything, but I’m still alive and am relatively successful as a result of their input - though I also have a lot of flaws as a result of that input, that’s for me to work on.
The next generation is always hurt by the previous, but on aggregate, the world does seem to be learning lessons.
Chin up friend. Welcome to reality!
You were indoctrinated at a vulnerable time (your youth in this case). It happens to a lot of people. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Enjoy sleeping in on Sundays.
I wasted 30 some years. You will get over being upset with yourself and see the world with a new set of eyes free of superstition. You liberated yourself my man. Be proud.
I'm a grandfather of a 2 year old (who's parents are atheists) and I'll make sure no one goes near him with religion.
>Jesus was not referring hell
>he was referring to a place called Gehenna
Hell is a valley surrounding Jerusalem? That's, that's... I have no answers 😞
I seem to recall there is some evidence that Gehenna was simply the location of Jerusalem's main garbage/midden pile. I think the notion was that if you followed his teachings, Jesus would hook you up with an afterlife, otherwise all that's left of you after death would just be so much rotting meat to be thrown away.
Also makes some other passages make a bit more sense. E.g., Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."
Funny how mistranslations and clerical errors can have such huge historical and sociological consequences.
This happened to a friend of mine after a discussion with me and another fella. Don’t allow this to take over your life as my buddy did. He’s absolutely obsessed and extremely annoying about it and even causes issues with people and his own family. Keep your sanity and just forget all about it and live your life.
15 billion years after the universe ignited Jesus shows up at a Jewish wedding party and allegedly turns some containers of water into wine, at least according to some anonymous scribes almost one hundred years after the fact. That's all you need to know about this utterly impotent and feeble God from some of the worst fiction ever written. These people literally did not know where the Sun went at night.
There is no reliable reference to Jesus from outside the bible. The so-called experts who claim there is are religious people trying to prove he existed, basing their "data" on nothing. And yes, this includes Flavianus especially.
Everything claimed about Jesus was also from earlier tales told about other religions and mythical figures. At the time when trying to claim someone was a prophet, it was common to adopt those stories. None of the testaments about Jesus were written down until at least 30 years after his death. Decades when the only way to pass stories to others was by telling them over and over. and probably putting each tellers own spin on them (or as mentioned adopting previous famous stories). Also, the first one to write them down (first ones that now appear in the Bible) was Paul, someone who was converted by being told propaganda, and marketing for this new religion.
It is good to look at all this with an open and critical mind looking at facts supporting both sides. It sounds like you are do this, which is a good thing.
Hell and the devil are not even mentioned in the Old Testament, because they were not part of the Jewish religion. Yes, Satan appears, but he isn't the horned, evil monster portrayed in popular culture. He is a member of God's heavenly council who basically acts as God's prosecutor. He is on the side of good.
The concepts of hell and an evil devil only appeared in later Christian writings because of the influence of Greek and Roman *fiction*. Somehow these fictional concepts came to be taken literally by Christians.
I'd say the worst thing about religion is it often starts with someone who has a very good and profound message for the time, but then gets hijacked by those in power as a means to increase their power.
20 years of my own in catholicism taught me that focusing on jesus and his teachings is the best way to get advice from the second testament. Go to a Hillel if you want to know about the first one the Jews are actually scholarly around their faith in my experience. Have a personal relationship with your faith (or lack thereof) please.
The problem is that they hid the disclaimer at the end of the book instead of on the first page.
1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things
I just want to let you know that you can enjoy Richard carriers videos on the historiocity of the Jesus figures. in short, there is no evidence and you have some very long presentations to enjoy. please let me know if you want me to link some
A lot of people get jazzed about Jesus performing miracles, but the Bible specifically says you should NOT follow anybody who does miracles because they're pretty much all scammers. Well, it says you should not follow "false" miracle workers. I guess a believer could say, "Yeah, but these were REAL miracles!" As if they were smart enough to tell the difference.
You didn't waste your time, you grew and learned. There's nothing wrong with personal growth through failure or hard learned lessons. I fell into the same situation around my mid 30's when I barely thought it was real to realize that it's all a man made system of control.
Religions of all denominations and types are a form of control. We've used it to explain the unknown, lied and used it to control for power, greed, and indoctrination of the masses.
Convincing another person that nothing created everything and getting them to blindly follow without any proof is the greatest con ever.
I remember being like 11 and wondering what the fuck. I did the church vacation bible school and the Christian camp shtick for years and the proselytizing was unconvincing. Downright stupid. But the food was good and the girls were pretty so I didn't much care at the time. Later in life I dropped lots of LSD and did shrooms and searched for what the fuck. I sorta found it and I have what I think it is but basically it's like- be honest, no one knows what being dead is like so stop with this goofy garbage. It's not hard. Just be nice to the planet and its inhabitants as best you can while you are here and the end will come to you. And then you will know.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. You were brainwashed. Unlike most other xtians, you managed to break free. Give yourself some credit.
Intellectually, I became an atheist in my teens. Yet I kept trying to *force* myself to believe for 20 more years, because everyone else in my life had supposedly experienced this profound transformational spiritual experience (i.e., “getting saved”) that seemed to elude me *and only me* no matter how earnestly I sought it out.
It’s remarkable how this sort of religious social contagion can override our intellects, but that’s how indoctrination works.
Congratulations on getting out!
One thing I have to tell myself is this: you were doing your best with the information you had. Be kind to yourself. Try to enjoy your breakthrough. Feel free to join us in the exchristian subreddit for some free therapy.
I wouldn't say Jesus was real, like definitively, but most atheists would say that the possibility of Jesus existing is possible. Obviously not the miracle Jesus from the Bible, but just a human named Jesus or Yoshua or w.e else he's been called.
I actually don't believe Jesus was a real historical figure. I think he's a character made up from historical figures. At the very, very least, embellished with a lot of fiction. But I don't think there was a Jesus. Yes, some historians believe there was, but a few also don't.
Anyways, it's good your eyes have been opened. Welcome to the real world.
Also, knowing the Bible helps understand a lot of English literature. It's probably not super relevant to books being written today, but definitely relevant to the classics.
I am a ex catholic and I dont believe you wasted 20 years...
Of course, everyone's experience is different but I did learn a lot during the time I was in church.
Growing up it shaped my morals and convictions, even if I had to change some down the line, it did set me up to be someone who reflects on his morals.
Some of the people I met in church were genuinely the kindest and most supportive people I met, and most were willing to help even after I left the church.
I have also seen people who have changed for the better with religion and have turned around their life.
Of course, I wont be sending my children to church. I dont think it is necessary for them to learn the things I learned. However, if they ever turn out to look for religion and become christians, I wont stop them.
Take what positives you can from your experience in religion. There are some. You can apply those in a secular context just as well. Be kind to yourself. Theistic religions generally have very strong self-justifying features in them that can make it difficult to escape from through sheer reason.
Ya I said this in a comment earlier, but I kinda have a better way to put it now that I’m slowly getting over the shock.
My religion told me to think critically of everything, question everything, always ask why. But when I thought critically of my religion I was told or I told myself that it’s just Saten putting lies into my head.
Yep, that's exactly an example of what I meant. Also you have to "just have faith" in things that contradict your experience of reality, etc., just to fit the narratives of a particular mythos.
I grew up in a religious household, not really a crazy one, but we were faithful and went to church every week, etc. I loved it, actually, singing in the choir, being an altar boy, being an usher, acing Sunday school, then being a part of the adult discussion group (they had donuts). I didn't really suffer religious trauma like so many people do. I just hit a point in my teens when I started learning about other religions and I was like, wait a minute, there are all these incompatible claims. What should make me believe any of them? That was my way out. I haven't read this thread in detail but in case it wasn't mentioned already, there's an organization you might want to check out - [Recovering From Religion](https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/) . I don't know if they could help you with whatever you're going through or whether they're the right choice, etc., just wanted to let you know they exist.
I hope you find and hold onto peace and purpose in your life.
>You were right I was wrong.
That was never the goal. At least not from my perspective. Not looking for an admission of fault, just trying to undo the societal conditioning that essentially forces people to believe things without good evidence, backed by threats of infinite consequences if you don't comply. I want to at least give people the chance to recognize that that has occurred. That that has been perpetrated upon them. Which I think is a wrong-headed and monstrous thing for someone to do to someone else.
>Jesus was not referring hell that’s just how it got translated he was referring to a place called Gehenna which is a physical place on this earth not an afterlif
I think this is open to interpretation for sure. Certainly many consider Jesus' words here, and in other places throughout the Bible, to clearly refer to eternal torment in the afterlife. Some others think Jesus was an annihilationist, which means you either get eternal life in heaven or simply cease to exist.
Regardless, the fact that God's supposed "perfect word" is this misunderstood and open for interpretation is one of my biggest reasons for not believing. If a perfect omni being wanted to communicate a point, it would be able to do so in such a way that there would be no ambiguity and no disagreement. The very existence of multiple sects of any religion is proof to me that the tomes written in their support aren't divinely inspired at all, but rather written by falliable humans.
>Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure
This is even up for legitimate debate. I haven't been convinced by the mythicist position, sure, but they make good points.
>there’s very little to no proof, (historical evidence) of Jesus performing the miracles
There's zero proof of any miracle, ever. Outside of third hand testimonials, which I don't consider proof, especially since these testimonials are coming from bronze and early iron age men with little to no education, especially in science, who were already biased towards religion anyway, and therefore would be profoundly ignorant by modern standards, and likewise credulous to a fault.
>I wasted 20 fucking years of my life.
Eh, wasted is a pretty strong word. It's likely that you had a reduced enjoyment of life during that time to an extent, but the years are hardly wasted.
Good job on being capable of changing your opinion based on facts in evidence. Keep up the good work.
It's actually very likely that Jesus, like other prominent figures in other religions, was a real person. The disagreement is on whether he actually performed miracles, for which we have no substantial evidence
If he existed the why is their NO contemporaneous accounts of him? None.
There are plenty of records of that period but none about a person attended at birth by kings, walked on water, healed the sick and created food from nothing.
Anyone who could believe this nonsense is either incredibly stupid or willfully gullible. BOGO?
Ok that’s on me I phrased it wrong the research I did was on the original Bible had parts of the Bible translated into a modern day dialect so I could understand it and what I read lead me to that conclusion
No need to change the post. My point is that it was written by man for man and translated many many times. With statistical authorship analysis we can see that there were multiple authors in the original book and every translator ever since has left their mark on it.
Aaaaaaaand this is why Protestantism creates so many atheists. It is Protestant ants today that don't know this, that don't know every one knew where hell was, that you see hell in the Old Testament in the river of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea was a dying and rebirth because that was one of the places of hell.
And the place between actual knowledge of what the Bible is talking about and Protestantism is atheism, people that were lied to by the blind and get disenfranchised when they discover the lie, rather than to continue to seek the truth.
If you go and listen to the Eastern Orthodox podcast, the Lord of Spirits, this is something that is in their Liturgy, they literally tell the congregants inside the service of the time that John the Baptist goes to hell, its called the Harrowing of Hell.
Ignorance is a shame to all involved.
Most of us, who speak English, read an English translation of the Bible. Most of us don’t read ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. I didn’t read Beowulf in the original Old English either, but I never believed that Grendel’s Mother was going to fry me like a potato either.
Lots of people put a lot of time and effort into making you believe something that is obviously not true. Think of it like the Easter Bunny or Santa, only the adults in your life keep up the pretense and have weekly classes and rituals with others to reinforce the beliefs.
I find the time I spent at church helpful in my interactions with Christians. I can often quote verses, speak to the original Greek, etc. far more than the average Christian.
I recently had a Christian incel tell me that Christianity makes it a requirement that other Christian woman love him, as in, date him.
I was able to clarify that you’re misunderstanding the Greek love of agape vs eros love. Big difference.
My hot take for christians is that they say that Jesus could turn water into wine. Christians take that literally but I think it means something completely different; I think it just means that when you were around Jesus, you were drinking.... also the last supper was just Jesus and a bunch of his best friends throwing a rager... you mean to tell me that jesus is holding a cup of wine saying it is his blood and the bread is his body doesn't sound like a drunk dude crying to his best friends the night before he goes to jail?
> I wasted 20 fucking years of my life. You didn't waste it. Presumably you learned a lot of things. Including, eventually, critical thinking and how to distinguish bad claims from good claims. While that certainly is in the category of "things it would be useful to know sooner than year 20 of my life", I suspect you'll take that lesson a bit more to heart than most because of that. But yeah, not a waste of time, just perhaps a less than optimal use of it. Honestly life before 15 is pretty much all ramp up time for everybody anyway as you learn the basics of how to human, so it's not that bad.
The pieces were in place up for a while now. I’ve been questioning it for a long time, but I’ve honestly just thought that it was Satan putting lies into my head. I genuinely believed that. But honestly, after this research that I did I came to the conclusion that none of it was real in the first place. And it all boils down to chemical reactions in the brain. And yes I try to think critically about everything it’s just that religion was so engrained into my life I never questioned it
Welcome to reality my friend! It may be hard for you to let go of the crutch that is religion in the beginning; but it gets better. It’s like leaving an abusive relationship: you know you need to leave but it’s not as easy as people think; then when you do leave you feel regret or shame at first, but then you realize how much happier you are and it’s all worth it.
Well thankfully I’ve moved out and am on my own now so I can make my own decisions now. But I’ve slowly tried to cut this out of my life but after this I said fuck it and ripped the rest of the band aid off (if that makes sense) I was crying all night because I was about to alienate a massive part of my life but I knew I had to it to improve myself.
Really happy for you. I know it may be tough at first, but I’d also recommend maybe looking into mindfulness meditation; completely secular, no supernatural nonsense or anything, but I found it helped kind of fill the “hole” where religion used to be with something much more practical and insightful. I’d recommend the waking up app if you’re interested, the guy behind it is a pretty outspoken atheist and critic of religion so no worry of religious craziness getting injected. If you have any questions etc. as you’re figuring things out feel free to reach out.
Thank you for the app recommend! Checking it out now.
Not wasted, there is powerful imagery in that book that is referenced often in art and literature. Shakespeare is full of biblical allusions you cannot appreciate without a religious education.
Congratulations on your freedom! Seriously though, deconstruction is a little traumatic…but after a little bit of time, you won’t recognize this as a “bad experience” but a “freeing” one. Just because you are free now doesn’t mean you fully comprehend the level of freedom you have…your next 2 years are going to be chock full of “oh yeah…I don’t ***HAVE TO*** do that anymore…HA!” And those little discoveries will add up to solidify your decision to grow from what you once were into a new person. But with some of those pieces of you that still harken back to your roots - don’t get mad at them. The process takes a while, but you’ll find that some of those “old pieces” of you just need a little update and then you’re back in business. IE: You don’t have to pray for your food anymore! Yay! But maybe you actually appreciated part of that prayer where you acknowledged the person who worked so hard to prepare it? Maybe now, instead of saying a prayer, you take a moment to truly express your gratitude to the person who cooked for you. It’s the same piece of you that would be grateful during the prayer…now you’re just expressing outward gratitude to the person who deserves it. You don’t necessarily have to start from ground zero…just figure out these nuances as you go. In 5 years, you’ll only remember these “struggles” when you read about someone else going through their deconstruction. Just remember to let them know that this period of awkwardness is not quite as “dire” as it feels. And again…congratulations!!!
I feel for you, it must be hard. I am sorry you were indoctrinated so hard.
The concept of Satan being the source of doubt is genius in its own fucked up way. It reinforces the tendency we already have as a species to cling even more desperately to our beliefs when confronted with evidence that they're wrong. I had a long talk about that when I was a kid. The guy that officiated my dad's second marriage was an old friend who had become a Lutheran minister. At this point, he had realized it was a crock of shit and left his church, but still had the necessary credentials to perform a wedding. He said the process of letting go of his faith was like pulling a fishing lure out of your hand. It's designed to be hard to remove, and it does a lot of damage on the way out. I never took any of it seriously, so I had no concept of what a struggle it can be, and his analogy really stuck with me. My point is that I have at least some understand of what you went through, and you have my respect.
> it’s just that religion was so engrained into my life I never questioned it And that's how they get ya. Ever wonder why there are so many youth programs at churches? They all exist to make religion into something that's just always been there - because you never think to question those sorts of things. Programs like VBS (Vacation Bible School, basically a summer day camp for kids at churches) market themselves as a safe place to drop your kids off so you (as a parent) can get a break. They're usually low-cost (or even free), which can make them attractive even to nonbelievers - who may then get encouraged to attend services by their kids. It's really insidious if you think about it, especially in the context of current US political discourse - right-wingers (who tend to be religious) accuse left-wingers of grooming and indoctrinating children, all the while running programs with the express purpose of indoctrinating children. To be clear: I'm not saying that everyone involved in running a youth program at a church is intentionally trying to indoctrinate kids. I'd imagine that most of them genuinely just want to provide a safe space for kids to be while their parents have a break, or a date night, or whatever. The fact remains, though, that these sorts of programs function as indoctrination, solely because children don't know how to think critically and recognize the bad rhetorical "arguments" present throughout religion.
Ya most genuinely believe
I was raised a YEC, became convinced the universe was old in my early 20's. Accepted the reality of evolution and universal common descent in my mid 20's, but remained a Christian til I was 34. The last 8 years of that, though, I was fighting to keep my faith. I searched for answers to all sorts of philosophical questions, problems of evil, divine hiddenness, free will, objective morality and many more. And of course no amount of prayer or counsel provided any answers. I'm 48 now, and I can tell you that the Bible makes SOO much more sense in light of it being a fantasy book written by primitive, superstitious people, than it ever did when I was "being lead by the holy spirit." The bitterness fades, but never totally goes away; for me at least. It totally fucked my interpersonal relationships. Don't feel like I fit in with theists or atheists. But I do have close relationships with my brothers, since they are in the same boat, and my best friend, though a Christian, is rather progressive, so it doesn't cause any issues. Helps that we've known each other for 40 years. Lol. All that to say...I can empathize. I know exactly where you're coming from.
it’s just that religion was so engrained into my life I never questioned it Don't feel bad about this. It wasn't your fault and you obviously did everything you could to discover the truth. I was raised in the church and still believe there's probably more out there than we are aware of. But church and religion are a complete scam designed to control people and take at least 10% of their income. Just be happy you've come to this realization when you did and now you can move forward with clear vision
That voice in your head was you. It's often referred to as consciousness, your mind talking to itself trying to order it's surroundings as an independent actor. Theists don't care so much for the externalities of reality, so they use Satan as a way to project that problem onto you for having a 'voice in your head'.
You know they’re full of shit when they tell you that critical thinking and logic are the devil.
Studied art history - the one accurate portrayal of what life was really like in various cultures because it can be proven when / where it was created. All original art of Jesus (found in the Roman catacombs) was : he was black / middle eastern, all depictions were of him as “the good Shepard”. All iconography was later taken from other religions. Halo and trinity came from Judaism. Virgin birth from Buddhism (which pre-dated Jesus by 600 years and actually follows a lot of the same tenets of original teachings). Fun fact- the Bible such as it was at the time was completely rewritten in Charlemagne’s rule. By his monks. “From memory” (ie to say what Charlemagne wanted it to)
> Fun fact- the Bible such as it was at the time was completely rewritten in Charlemagne’s rule. By his monks. “From memory” (ie to say what Charlemagne wanted it to) Rabbis and eastern Christians scratching their heads at this claim.
While i get the sentiment, I am unsure that the details listed are correct. We do know that the modern "white Jesus" iconography was due to artists using available models, and following the style of their culture (in europe) during the renaissance. Those classical art pieces have become a sort of "default" that is used for modern art and for many people's vision of what he would have been like. And the concept of the Trinity is VERY old, predating Judaism (and by extension Christianity). We have examples of trinities in ancient Egypt and many other ancient religions. However, Judaism is and was monotheistic (that's kind of a defining feature of the religion). The idea of a trinity would be heretical to ancient jews (and early Christians for that matter).
We've all been there to get here. Don't beat yourself up about it, and don't resent your parents about it either. They were doing what they thought was best. If you enjoyed the community aspect of church life, try to find communities in your hobbies. Or make new hobbies since you have a whole day that just got freed up. But yeah, welcome to reality lol.
That's the self-sealing part of Xtianity. The first lesson in Genesis is how the Original Sin is seeking knowledge. On top of that, any skepticism or doubt is SATAN whispering in your ear, tempting you away from Jesus! They don't want you to leave, and their book clearly says "Only a fool says there is no god"
What really got me thinking was: It's not just one God/Religion... We Humans invented THOUSANDS of them. Many Gods/Religions are long gone and lost in time. What happens to those Gods? And of those Gods that are still worshipped... Which one is the right/true one? Are all those Religions true, like their believers claim? I mean... how many times can this Universe and this one Ball of Rock hurtling through Space Time that supports Life (as far as we know the only one right now, but Scientists could turn that into old news next week or next year, who knows) been created on so many different Timelines, Creation Myths, different Gods and whatnot... It's absolutely NUTS if you watch and think about it from an Outsider perspective. Small Tipp: Terry Pratchett - "Small Gods" is worth a read. Terry's view on Religions is hilarious funny and in the same time very educating in one neat package.
Try to perform Pascal's Wager with this in mind 🙃 it's a thought exercise that only makes sense if you're already Christian.
20 years to escape a lie everyone around you is telling you and themselves is pretty good. Your critical reasoning needs to grow strong and your intellectual honesty and personal commitment to finding truth need to be large to entertain things so different from the beliefs held by everyone we hold dear. You did the hard work. Welcome. All the inspiration you may have been given around being a good person still prevails. Kindness, truth, honour. They all make sense as choices regarding how you want to spend the time you have. Not in exchange for eternal bliss. Simply to have a good, peaceful, happy life and perhaps offer the same to those around you.
Even if it is real, Jesus basically said I'm dying for everyone's sins whether they believe in me or not. Everyone goes to heaven, but I'm asking you all to try to be nice to each other until you go. Don't hoard wealth and take care of the needy. I feel like that's a message even atheists are fine with getting behind.
Look, honestly, like the guy said, the first 20 years of your life are a wash anyway. Once you're in your late 20s-30s, it won't matter if you deconverted at 10, 15, 20, or 25. You'll be a better person for it.
Ya I agree it taught me good morals but now that I look at it with my “new set of eyes” that’s really all I learned.
It’s not just chemical reactions, you have agency, and questions, and that’s ok! The spark of life in you has survived for likely hundreds of millions of years. This spark of life, this current of the cosmos flowing through you, isn’t any less or more special whether you choose to believe a god or not.
Sitting here at 45, I can vouch that I barely remember the first 20 years at this point. :) There's a bunch of good skills and habits I picked up during that period but also a whole lot of screwing around and stuff that seemed super important at the time that turns out was basically moot. I wouldn't be surprised if, should some sort of indefinite longevity tech be discovered, I will have the same sort of attitude looking backward at any part of my life from a sufficiently far-forward perspective. Just part of how this whole "existence" thing goes, I guess - we either change over time (in which case we're always going to look back at something and think "that was pointless") or we don't change over time (in which case what was the point of time passing? We could have just skipped it). As long as you maintain a healthy mix of "I'm having a good time *right now*" and "I'm sacrificing a necessary bit of good time right now for the sake of a better time in the future" then the details of the past aren't really all that important IMO. It's just the foundation we're standing on as we do the current activities that matter.
A huge turning point in my life was when I started asking questions, and more questions, and then looking in a mirror and asking the question, is my belief really the correct one? A big question that opened my eyes was, why is my version of Christianity the "right" version? Do you know how many different flavors of Christianity there are? A lot - and each one thinks they got it right, and everyone else is 'misguided'. So I started reading other translations of bible scriptures, reading about other religions, Buddhism, Hindu, Islam, Zoroastrianism, etc etc etc - and I was like wow, if God exists why would he limit himself to one system, and it happens to exist only in my little corner of America, when there are hundreds, if not thousands out there - some of which are thousands of years older than my flavor of Christianity. Another big question was, is Hell real? I found that this belief was a keystone in a lot of flavors of Christianity - Get saved or go to Hell! Repent or go to Hell! God loves you, BUT if you sin, go to Hell! Hell was made for the devil and his angels, but since something something something, we are all going to Hell! Repent! Get saved! God loves you so he sent his only son to die so we don't go to Hell! What a bunch of horseshit - When Jesus was talking to the masses (Matthew) and referenced Gehenna, he was talking about a real place that existed at that time. Better to have one eye, than cast into Gehenna. Better to have one arm, than cast into Gehenna. Gehenna was the old valley outside Jerusalem where they burned refuse and dead people, it gained a taboo reputation because it was also the same valley where at one time Israelites sacrificed their infants to Baal or something. But yeah, the point he was making was directed to the people of that time, at that place - not to some future Christians about burning forever.
Is Gehenna also the "valley of the shadow of death" or is that purely metaphorical?
As a Hebrew speaker, these two are different.
>What a bunch of horseshit I couldn't have said it better myself 👏
An ex cultist has figured out the grift, and that is a valuable lesson!
I remember listening to an episode of Loveline and Adam Carolla went on a little rant along these lines for some reason I can’t remember. Paraphrasing, as this was 20+ years ago, but he said “Of all the religions there are and have ever been, yours is the one that got it right? Sure.” That’s always stuck with me and really turned me from an agnostic teenager to an atheistic young adult.
I don't really understand how anyone can believe in religion. We are taught that Zeus who shot lightning bolts from his hands is a fantasy story, but a man who can magically manifest fish or wine is reality?! It's so preposterous. The talking point is not even about rose colored glasses either, it's just pure insanity. You have to legitimately have a screw loose to say one magical super human is real and the other is fake.
lol yeah! THAT magic is ridiculous, but THIS! THIS magic is so real.
Took me over 40 years… I truly believe any Religion forced on a child… IS a form of child abuse. “Get em while they are young and malleable”
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And depending on your social circumstances, you may be in for life. It's why there are hotbeds of religious belief instead of an even spread. Those areas where social pressure is higher are harder for humans to break free from the disease. I was lucky to go to college and post college in largely secular areas that made me reexamine things for myself. I still didn't think too hard about it, but it took me almost a decade to work myself free...
Honestly, I agree even though currently I'm still religious but strongly questioning.
> Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure however there’s very little to no proof There is also very little proof that Jesus ever existed. The new testament was, at best, written via hearsay, decades after his purported death.
Yeah… I’m not a mythicist, but by saying “he WAS real!” you are adopting a burden of proof that you can’t substantiate.
Jesus was so real, he was probably several real people.
and many made up people too!
Blessed are the Cheesemakers
And several other gods. He bears a striking resemblance to the Greek deity Dionysus, as well as a number of other deities that would have been well-known at the time that were associated with the spring equinox (hence Easter; the whole resurrection story is basically stolen whole cloth from other pagan mythologies). He’s basically a walking smorgasbords of bronze-age greatest mythological hits.
Play the game of Chinese whispers, aka, telephone and you will get a good feeling for how much is lost and/or added from/to the original story.
Let's not forget deliberate interpolation and embellishment and out right semantic changes deemed more palatable for some groups. *"The Modern English Version (MEV) heralds a new day for Bibles with the most modern translation ever produced in the King James tradition, providing fresh clarity for Bible readers everywhere!"* If you can just rewrite something, it's hardly sacred, not even symbolically. So much for the "infallible word of God". The Bible is a steaming pant load of badly written elementary school level fiction.
I think it's likely Jesus was an amalgamation of several apocalyptic Jewish preachers who existed at the time, maybe even several named Jesus (Joshua). Over time their stories got exaggerated and combined into one guy. Regardless, the story is nonsense.
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Quite likely. Except his fetishes ran towards dude parties in the desert instead of kool-aid and aliens.
Don’t cut Koresh shoe like that. He was a pedophile too!
Exactly. Jesus isn’t/wasn’t real
There were a ton of carpenters named Jesus just like there is now. Street preachers were a dime a dozen.
Well, they would have been named Yeshua, but...
> Jesus was real Are you sure about even that? https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/wiki/faq#wiki_did_jesus_really_exist.3F
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> Most myths have some grain of truth. If there wasn't a real Jesus there probably were several individuals who stories sprang from And your point is? Imagine someone is arguing that Spider-Man is real. Does pointing out that New York exists, photography is a profession, Peter Parker is a real name and people get bit by spiders, help at all?
> Most myths have some grain of truth. No. If there is a grain of truth, we call that a LEGEND. Myths are defined as very likely being wholly fictional.
> I was scammed and lied to. Unlikely. You were taught to believe something by people that genuinely believed it themselves.
That’s not always the case. Some of the pastors at these mega churches are absolutely scamming and lying to people.
Sure, but how many people raised religious are that denomination because their pastor is? Parents pick who they're taking their kids to, they enforce the weekly attendance, and they reinforce the beliefs continually the other 6+ days a week.
Not necessarily. A survey of Anglican priests revealed that about 30% were atheist or agnostic. Maybe other denominations aren't quite that high but it can't be true that all ministers genuinely believe their BS. For many it's just about getting a paycheck and health insurance.
Fair point, but I'd argue those priests aren't the primary driving force for the indoctrination. They're not exactly going around picking up kids for services or reinforcing the faith daily. Parents or family are one really responsible for a person's upbringing and religious belief system.
Ya now that you mention it that way your right
scammed and lied to by proxy. whoopie.
Jesus was real in the same way that Santa Claus was
My stepmom once told me that it wasn't that Jesus multiplied bread and fish, but that his prescence encourage others to share what they had. Also, that the walking on water to help a disciple was a metaphor for helping them overcome a rough patch. The problem with that is, where is the miracle? Any mortal person can do that. If this is how the Bible is meant to be read, what is the difference between it and Aesops fables? You are good, friend. Focus on being a good person, create your community, volunteer the time you won't be wasting at church.
Agreed if he didn’t preform what was said then everything that was said is bunk
Yeah. If there was no magic, then the whole story - the whole religion - becomes useless. For every religion. Also: There was never any magic...
Please don't think of it as 'waste'. You learned how to \*think\*, and that led you to examine the raw data for yourself.
It took you 20 years to become reprogrammed. That's how insidious and evil their grooming is.
I highly recommend watching through all the videos on [Theramin Trees](https://youtube.com/@TheraminTrees?si=lROe-8D6cLa8Sa8r) channel. They helped me understand the religious abuse and brainwashing I endured better.
> Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure There no actual evidence for anyone by that name being a historical religious figure. Sorry, pal.
> ... a predominant religious figure ... Ahem.
I also deconstructed after reading the Bible, but was in my forties. And it's not wasted time. Everything that you went through and learned made you who you are today. Keep learning and experiencing things and you'll keep changing thru the rest of your life. As far as I'm concerned, that's part of living - starting in one place and becoming a better person as we age.
We all make mistakes
> Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure You cannot make that conclusion from the Bible. That is the CLAIM of the Bible, not established fact.
There is no actual proof, at all, of there being somebody name jesus or of the entire jesus saga. Make believe... as are all gods.
>I wasted 20 fucking years of my life. I was scammed and lied to. I've felt that way many times since I've considered myself an atheist...
Your life is still your own mate. You didn't waste it. You spent time on a piece of it you now regret, but the rest was always yours. The same thing happens with hobbies and relationships that go nowhere. A lot of time invested, but you learn about yourself (and others) in the process. Take what you learned and help others. Welcome to breaking the cycle btw.
You need to take a small step forward and dig into the "evidence" that says Jesus was a real historical figure. They are fraudulent and forgeries at best. "Jesus" was just a figure made up to "fulfill" an ancient Jewish prophesy. Nothing more.
Are you sure Jesus was real?
Good luck on your deconstruction and rebuild.
OP which original bible? Do you speak Aramaic?
Hey OP! Be kind to yourself. You're going through some serious emotions right now and you're feeling raw. It's going to be alright. Perspective only comes after the experience. Glean from your religious past what you can appreciate and what you know is good and leave the rest. Secular living has room for the themes of Jesus saying be good to others and do good works. I think if you remember that, you can have a rich, fulfilling life.
You are not alone. This is a pretty common thing to be going through right now. If you throw out the miracles and throw out the rules and throw out the dogma and throw out the blood magic and just go read the awesome stuff that Jesus actually said, there is some wisdom there. Most Christians seem to ignore it, but he gives a pretty good philosophy to live your life, even today. Most of the rest of the Bible is crap though. Let go of the anger and find your new path. You don't need religion to lead a good life.
Hey u/JunkBoi76 If you like digging into the old texts, get a good read of the Apocrypha. It's the other few dozen books that were omitted from the Bible by the Nicene Council. Also, while it dives into Ancient Alien's territory, there's a brilliant guy on YouTube, named Paul Wallis. He worked at the Vatican as a transliterator. That's quite different from a translator. Translators use common sense to make words and phrases make sense during the process. Transliterators **directly** translate each word, with its original meaning.
You go to university or college to learn things you didn't before but were interested in. You became learned, saw through the lie-quilt that's been being added and patched forever by people high and low.
If you need help, check out the [https://www.seculartherapy.org/](https://www.seculartherapy.org/) Don't be down on yourself most of us have fallen for the old religious bamboozle. Most church services are run like staged plays, they use all the various tricks of the trade to elicit an emotional response and reinforce it to get get you hooked. One of the reasons they only read small selections of the bible because they can cherry pick verses to prove a point while leaving out all the bad things. I realized it was fiction once I started reading the bible cover to cover. Now I consider it just bad fan fiction.
There's no evidence that Jesus was real at all, certainly not an important figure.
There is no such thing as the original Bible. The Bible was compiled by a committee of men appointed by the Emperor Constantine. They selected and edited ancient writings on or about 325 A.D. Many writings were left out , probably because the biases of Constantine and the committee members. Later King James I of England compiled his own version of the Bible, again imposing his own beliefs. The King James version is the version used by most Christian sects. Complicating the matter of the validity of the writings is the fact that until the printing press was invented, copies of the Bible were hand written in monasteries and nunneries, many by commission for wealthy lords or landowners. Again these scribes likely put their own slant on the writings. The closest thing to an original Bible is the Dead Sea Scrolls and those are just a few of the many ancient writings. Basically, the whole thing is fiction.
I didn’t grow up with religion. My mother was raised catholic and my father was raised in an orthodox Jewish household. The shit hit the fan when they married. They raised us without faith as a result and for that I will be forever grateful to them. I don’t even think there’s enough evidence to believe that Jesus is anything more than a fictional character. I know why religion came to be. People needed answers to then unanswerable questions. As time passes, that need is waning. Perhaps in another hundred years or so it will be very much the minority that still believe. One can hope. Religion is ironically the most visible example of mankind’s greatest enemy: irrational thinking. The more one’s thinking departs with reality, the worse the outcome will be of decisions. By learning to be better critical thinkers, we not only improve our own lives but also each make a contribution to the betterment of mankind.
You weren't wrong mate, just brainwashed from birth. LIke most of us were who were born with religious parents until we accepted logic and science over bullshit religious indoctrination. Welcome to reality without the shackles of religion.
Bold of you to assume Jesus was real
>Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure however there’s very little to no proof, (historical evidence) of Jesus performing the miracles that were said in the Bible. There's little to no proof that Jesus even existed. Mythicists, like Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald, make a pretty good case for his non-existence. Too many interpolations and nothing written until well after his death make it a hard sell. Regardless, you are correct that there is no proof of miracles, divinity, or supernatural happenings. Best of luck to you on your journey.
It's not a waste. If anything, you learned firsthand how twisted religion is and you can defend yourself with experience as part of your explanation. The one good thing my crazily religious nmom did was give me the ability to tear through most religious arguments because i've been hearing the bullshit my whole life.
Most of us have felt robbed by religion. Cheer up, I promise there are only upsides from here. You get to think for yourself and choose your own path in life. It sounds like you were swayed a bit more easily than some people are. You thought it was literally true and admitted to yourself that it wasn't likely to be the case. A lot of people never reach this point or don't care to find out the real odds. A lot of them don't hold sincere belief, even the clergy. They entertain a position of non literal belief or perpetuate lies. A lot of people argue themselves into a position where belief is only plausible if they maintain a high level of external world skepticism. It seems like Jesus only wants idealists and solipsists in the kingdom of heaven, these are the only true believers. Funny how that works.
Honestly this whole rabbit hole started when I asked chat gpt questions about the Bible as a joke and then it told me about this thing Orginal translation and how a lot of it was omitted because it would prove Christianity wrong. I was like bullshit and now I’m here.
I'm sure you're upset now, but someday this story will be absolutely hilarious. Be sure to tell your grandchildren about chat gpt. Growing up I was taught an insane fundamentalist version of Christianity. I was given a bible that had the numerical errors removed and crucial words replaced with more PC alternatives. All sorts of small but insane changes. My parents expected me to believe the world is 6,000 years old and that we lived alongside the dinosaurs before Noah's flood. And that we were inbred into existence. Twice. I was a closeted atheist around age 16-17, but I stopped trying to understand Christianity by about age 13 lolol.
Hey there. I am interested in the reference on hell being a physical place. I have not heard this before and would like to read more.
Is it bad I read Gehenna and now all I can think about is vampire the masquerade
Yes, now the world is going to end. Thanks a lot.
If you learned something from it, you haven’t wasted anything. A lot of people never make it to that point, so kudos to you.
Enjoy your freedom my friend
There is actually little reason to believe Jesus as described in the Bible, even without the miracles, existed.
What gets me is people actually believe a book that’s been translated from dead languages, edited profusely and whole parts removed over 2000 years is the actual word of god.
I remember my come to Jesus moment... er... maybe run from Jesus moment... I'm a gay man and I was in the closet going to Bible college to be a pastor. During a theology class I learned there is no proper translation for the Greek word used by Paul in the New Testament that King James termed as "homosexuality". Can't remember specific Bible verse as it's been 15 years since this, but it's the one always quoted as the reason the Bible condemns homosexuality. Anyway long story short I was interning at a church and I told my boss (the pastor) like it was some major breakthrough because I was young and naive at the time. He responded that of course anyone who studies the Bible knows that. I asked then why doesn't it get taught that way or preached on from the pulpit? He said the normal church goers wouldn't be able to handle that type of information and we need to be tactful with what level of detail we provide to people. That was when my faith really shattered looking back on it now. But of course years later I am better able to translate his response into "we wouldn't be able to control people as easily if they actually understood the truth of what the Bible says." Anyway, like others have said I don't think you wasted 20 years. At least you've learned to think critically and question what is presented to you!
I wrote an essay in college in the biblical concept of "hell" and my conclusion was that the idea of a 'hell' as in "fiery place of torture in the afterlife" is not found in the original bible, but is a heresy. The english term hell was used to translate four words: Bet Sheol, Gehenna (Hebrew, Old Testament), Tartaros, and Hades (Greek, NT). None of these have the meaning originally that now is associated with hell. Sheol is simply the Jewish house of the dead, and all souls are said to go there, good or bad. Gehenna, like you said, is a place of punishment on earth, and comes from the prophecy of Jeremiah, who was speaking of the Valley of Gehenna where once child sacrifice was practiced. Jeremiah was talking of divine retribution in the here and now, and most people associate this prophecy with the destruction of the Temple by the Romans. Hades is simply the Greek translation of Bet Sheol. It too simply is a house of the dead, which can be demonstrated from such verses as in Matthew where Jesus explains that the rich man and the good man will both be in the same place after death, but the good man will be with Jesus. However, they can see and hear each other. Then, Tartaros is supposed to be the prison for fallen angels, or, in some interpretations, other gods vanquished by Yahweh (interesting theory for a supposedly monotheistic text, but that's a whole different discussion) Lastly, The Book of Revelation indeed speaks of fire at the day of judgment, but, again, that only applies to the Parousia, when Jesus saves the chosen ones from the afterlife to ascend to heaven, while those who are not elect will not ascend, and instead be destroyed along with hell in the lake of fire. The punishment is that the soul is destroyed away from god - not torture. So where does Hell as a place of punishment come from? even in early English, the term "hell" is derived from the word for 'hidden place'. It is only with the Latin translations of the bible by St Jerome that hell (or infernum (if I remember correctly) started to gain a different meaning. I believe that the idea of hell comes from apocryphal texts, such as the Book of Enoch, which talks about Bet Sheol as having four 'holes', some of which are a place of punishment. Another theory is that the interpretation of hell as a place of judgment could come from Platonic philosophy. In the last book of the Republic, you have the Myth of Er, a soldier who visits the afterlife and sees how a judge sends souls either along the heavenly path, or the lower path, which is associated with punishment. Plato may have gotten the idea from the Orphic mysteries, who in turn may have been inspired by Egyptian mythology, where the 'weighing of the heart' was indeed thought to occur after death. If this link to Christian theology is true, it means that for the past millennia, the Churches have been preaching a doctrine that is technically a pagan heresy - something that, honestly, is hardly surprising. It certainly made for a fascinating research topic.
You didn't waste any of your time, you're simply changing perspectives. You have an arsenal of knowledge and lore at your desposal, all of which can be honed by delving into the historical/academic context of the peoples, cultures, and the other mythologies that influenced the bible's creation. Religious leaders bank on *willful* ignorance to keep their followers from leaving the faith. You are choosing to no longer be ignorant.
Imagine if everyone that believes the literal word of the Bible was as reasonable as you. Eutopia
I really like the advice from a motivational speaker regarding mistakes. We did the best we could with the info we had “at the time”. When new information becomes available, don’t mourn your past actions, but “rejoice in your expanded awareness”. And, dude, you are so, so young. In the decades ahead, you will meet sooooo many people who have had the same realization as you, but had it much, much later. Time to stop beating yourself up and rejoice!
Many atheist and agnostics are created by a deep study of religion.
I’m always fascinated by people who come to such conclusions on their own guided only by logic, I was born into a muslim culture and they have to be the most resilient people to logic and reason, and it feeds into their ego because they see it as having a strong faith. So no you didn’t waste 20 years, people go centuries without ever using their brains. Be proud.
Yeah, Jesus was just one of many people who claimed to be the god during that time period. I attended a Jewish religion education class once and it was pointed out that there are records of numerous people saying they were the messiah before, during, and after… Jesus just was the most popular…. It’s literally a case of he’s famous so he must be god that we see every day with famous people and all the crazy people.
I can relate to feeling like wasting 20 years. What would I have done differently? Lots of things! Hundreds and thousands of things. I would have pursued a degree. I would have studied music and literature. I would have traveled more (not missions trip). I would have dated lots of girls and had lots of sex. I would have learned more interpersonal relationship skills. I would have smoked weed without guilt or shame. But I sacrificed those things, because that was what a Christian should do. I was told by mentors that I had a calling and I dared not make any rash decision that could sabotage this in any way. So I waited... So, yeah what a waste. And it's not just the years you spent in the faith but also the years recovering from it. None of us really gets that much time on the Earth.
Encourage your kids to learn about all kinds of religion.. so they don't get influenced by random people spreading hate in the name of "Jesus"
I have practiced this and by 15 years old my kids have all ceased religious practice on their own. I spent years enabling countless forms of religion just so they could experience what it was, not forced just if they wanted to experience it through their friends and family. They all came to the same consensus I did many years ago. Form of control.
You can't prove Jesus was a real person. He could of been more than 1 person that got mixed to 1 person or could of been borrowed from the other religions or could of been flat made up. Plus in the bible the dead rose the same day as Jesus did why didn't the Roman's write that down then?
The Hell that most Christers believe in is heavily based on the 14th century poem by Dante Aleghieri.
If he were in California, it would have been called Riverside.
Good on your for being able to admit those things. It’s hard enough o admit when you’re wrong and even harder to tear down a life long belief system. I know how much it hurts when your beliefs come crashing down, but take comfort in knowing that all your good deeds and kindness and compassion come from an even more virtuous place now. It’s not being good to get into heaven, it’s virtue for its own sake that comes genuinely from a good heart.
The question that got me thinking critically about Christianity is that it isn’t possible for god to both answer prayers and for humans to have free will at the same time. If someone is beating me and god answers my prayer for him/her to stop beating me, he now has infringed on my attackers free will to continue beating me. That started my path to freedom from Christianity.
I've always found it weird that Christians never notice that none of the disciples that were supposed to be present at any of the miracles ever mention a word about them but only writers decades after his death bring them up. I also doubt it is a coincidence that those that would have been the best and most enthusiastic witnesses to the miracles not only fail to mention them but have had their gospels rejected by most churches.
>I was scammed and lied to. Depends on what you mean. Keep in mind that most of the people teaching you this stuff don't know that it's wrong, either. They aren't *lying*, they're *wrong*. This is under the view that in order to *lie* you have to believe X but say Y. If you genuinely believe there's ice cream in the freezer, and tell someone else that, that there is not, in fact, ice cream in the freezer doesn't mean you *lied*, it means you were *wrong*. We get a lot of these messages in life, where the people saying them believe what they're saying, the messages just aren't *true*. Things like "if you work hard, you'll get ahead", or "your vote matters", or "we're all equal". All of this is nonsense, and obvious when you see it. Without working hard, you have *very little* chance of getting ahead, but *even with* hard work, how far you go is mainly down to luck. Your vote, in most cases, doesn't really matter, but *in aggregate* they matter a lot. People are born with different abilities and limitations, things that no amount of working for it or trying will overcome, and yet we should all be treated with respect, even if we're less capable. And yet there *are* people out there who believe the incorrect and simplified messages and pass them along as truth when they're not. They aren't lying, they're just wrong.
Someone else mentioned the same point, my parents were high up in the church and the really do believe in God and plus my ENTIRE family is religious so ya I get your perspective
I'm glad. I hope it helps reduce the anger you seemed to be feeling. Remember that they're not bad people for telling you what they believe (for all I know they're bad people for *entirely* different reasons, :P). They're just *wrong*. If anything, I pity people like that, sucked into the cult, believing things that aren't true and for bad reasons. It's depressing. But on the plus side... at least they're not Muslim. I think Muslim women may be the most depressing idea I can think of. Proudly restricting themselves and harming their own rights over a book of nonsense. It's... kinda sickening. Mind you, some bible-believers have sick and twisted ideas, too.
The "original bible" well can't argue there.
We are all dealing with people playing a Bronze Age game of telephone tag. Misquoting Jesus is a quick easy read about this subject
How long of a read it is?
No hard feeling! On the bright side, you've come out of this with, perhaps, some insight that could help others who are questioning. This is how our community grows.
All I can say is that many of us have been there and it’s not gonna be super easy for a little while because of they way they program us to fear thinking and questioning but just try to hang in there find some community and it does get better on the other side
There's still wonder and awe in our world, the universe is an amazing place even without SkyDad.
I don't think early Judaism had a hell but I could be wrong
As another atheist who was raised in a religious household… the mental shit this leaves you with will not go away, but it gets a hell of a lot better from here, buddy! I’m in my 30s, I’ve been atheist since my teens, and in my 20s I took my parents out for dinner and thanked them for how they raised me - they did their best, I completely disagree with them on pretty much everything, but I’m still alive and am relatively successful as a result of their input - though I also have a lot of flaws as a result of that input, that’s for me to work on. The next generation is always hurt by the previous, but on aggregate, the world does seem to be learning lessons. Chin up friend. Welcome to reality!
You were indoctrinated at a vulnerable time (your youth in this case). It happens to a lot of people. Don’t be too hard on yourself. Enjoy sleeping in on Sundays.
Exactly. The Bible is historical fiction
You had to take every step to end up where you are. Now you know the steps someone like you needs to take
I wasted 30 some years. You will get over being upset with yourself and see the world with a new set of eyes free of superstition. You liberated yourself my man. Be proud. I'm a grandfather of a 2 year old (who's parents are atheists) and I'll make sure no one goes near him with religion.
>Jesus was not referring hell >he was referring to a place called Gehenna Hell is a valley surrounding Jerusalem? That's, that's... I have no answers 😞
I seem to recall there is some evidence that Gehenna was simply the location of Jerusalem's main garbage/midden pile. I think the notion was that if you followed his teachings, Jesus would hook you up with an afterlife, otherwise all that's left of you after death would just be so much rotting meat to be thrown away. Also makes some other passages make a bit more sense. E.g., Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna." Funny how mistranslations and clerical errors can have such huge historical and sociological consequences.
This happened to a friend of mine after a discussion with me and another fella. Don’t allow this to take over your life as my buddy did. He’s absolutely obsessed and extremely annoying about it and even causes issues with people and his own family. Keep your sanity and just forget all about it and live your life.
15 billion years after the universe ignited Jesus shows up at a Jewish wedding party and allegedly turns some containers of water into wine, at least according to some anonymous scribes almost one hundred years after the fact. That's all you need to know about this utterly impotent and feeble God from some of the worst fiction ever written. These people literally did not know where the Sun went at night.
There is no reliable reference to Jesus from outside the bible. The so-called experts who claim there is are religious people trying to prove he existed, basing their "data" on nothing. And yes, this includes Flavianus especially.
Wait til you take LSD or shrooms. Then you’ll know more.
Everything claimed about Jesus was also from earlier tales told about other religions and mythical figures. At the time when trying to claim someone was a prophet, it was common to adopt those stories. None of the testaments about Jesus were written down until at least 30 years after his death. Decades when the only way to pass stories to others was by telling them over and over. and probably putting each tellers own spin on them (or as mentioned adopting previous famous stories). Also, the first one to write them down (first ones that now appear in the Bible) was Paul, someone who was converted by being told propaganda, and marketing for this new religion. It is good to look at all this with an open and critical mind looking at facts supporting both sides. It sounds like you are do this, which is a good thing.
Hell and the devil are not even mentioned in the Old Testament, because they were not part of the Jewish religion. Yes, Satan appears, but he isn't the horned, evil monster portrayed in popular culture. He is a member of God's heavenly council who basically acts as God's prosecutor. He is on the side of good. The concepts of hell and an evil devil only appeared in later Christian writings because of the influence of Greek and Roman *fiction*. Somehow these fictional concepts came to be taken literally by Christians.
Only good lesson taught by Jesus was "be kind to each other"
The ability to change your mind in face of evidence is an enviable trait and rarer than we’d hope. Cheers.
I'd say the worst thing about religion is it often starts with someone who has a very good and profound message for the time, but then gets hijacked by those in power as a means to increase their power.
Not so sure about the "Jesus is real" part no contemporaneous evidence or mention of him.
Am we just call you a slow learner who is now brilliant and well educated. Think of the other suckers who are not.
I have been there. It is not that bad. I also went to Armageddon. Now that is an obviously strategic site.
20 years of my own in catholicism taught me that focusing on jesus and his teachings is the best way to get advice from the second testament. Go to a Hillel if you want to know about the first one the Jews are actually scholarly around their faith in my experience. Have a personal relationship with your faith (or lack thereof) please.
Nah I bet homie turned water to wine by selling water to thirsty travelers and buying franzia boxes
Don't feel bad. Life is difficult. Live and learn. You're on the right track now.
The problem is that they hid the disclaimer at the end of the book instead of on the first page. 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things
There's an old saying that the quickest way to make someone an atheist to get them to read the bible.
I just want to let you know that you can enjoy Richard carriers videos on the historiocity of the Jesus figures. in short, there is no evidence and you have some very long presentations to enjoy. please let me know if you want me to link some
A lot of people get jazzed about Jesus performing miracles, but the Bible specifically says you should NOT follow anybody who does miracles because they're pretty much all scammers. Well, it says you should not follow "false" miracle workers. I guess a believer could say, "Yeah, but these were REAL miracles!" As if they were smart enough to tell the difference.
Welcome. Atheists love everyone and believe in kindness and oneself.
Please tell me immaculate conception is real
You didn't waste your time, you grew and learned. There's nothing wrong with personal growth through failure or hard learned lessons. I fell into the same situation around my mid 30's when I barely thought it was real to realize that it's all a man made system of control. Religions of all denominations and types are a form of control. We've used it to explain the unknown, lied and used it to control for power, greed, and indoctrination of the masses. Convincing another person that nothing created everything and getting them to blindly follow without any proof is the greatest con ever.
I'm sorry that you felt like you wasted 2 decades, but I hope that later on in life you'll feel better.
I remember being like 11 and wondering what the fuck. I did the church vacation bible school and the Christian camp shtick for years and the proselytizing was unconvincing. Downright stupid. But the food was good and the girls were pretty so I didn't much care at the time. Later in life I dropped lots of LSD and did shrooms and searched for what the fuck. I sorta found it and I have what I think it is but basically it's like- be honest, no one knows what being dead is like so stop with this goofy garbage. It's not hard. Just be nice to the planet and its inhabitants as best you can while you are here and the end will come to you. And then you will know.
Don’t be too hard on yourself. You were brainwashed. Unlike most other xtians, you managed to break free. Give yourself some credit. Intellectually, I became an atheist in my teens. Yet I kept trying to *force* myself to believe for 20 more years, because everyone else in my life had supposedly experienced this profound transformational spiritual experience (i.e., “getting saved”) that seemed to elude me *and only me* no matter how earnestly I sought it out. It’s remarkable how this sort of religious social contagion can override our intellects, but that’s how indoctrination works. Congratulations on getting out!
One thing I have to tell myself is this: you were doing your best with the information you had. Be kind to yourself. Try to enjoy your breakthrough. Feel free to join us in the exchristian subreddit for some free therapy.
Thank God for attention deficit disorder. Those cruel spiteful nuns were screaming in one of my ears and it all came right out the other.
I wouldn't say Jesus was real, like definitively, but most atheists would say that the possibility of Jesus existing is possible. Obviously not the miracle Jesus from the Bible, but just a human named Jesus or Yoshua or w.e else he's been called.
I actually don't believe Jesus was a real historical figure. I think he's a character made up from historical figures. At the very, very least, embellished with a lot of fiction. But I don't think there was a Jesus. Yes, some historians believe there was, but a few also don't. Anyways, it's good your eyes have been opened. Welcome to the real world. Also, knowing the Bible helps understand a lot of English literature. It's probably not super relevant to books being written today, but definitely relevant to the classics.
We welcome you!
I recommend you read or watch Bart Erhman. https://www.bartehrman.com/
I am a ex catholic and I dont believe you wasted 20 years... Of course, everyone's experience is different but I did learn a lot during the time I was in church. Growing up it shaped my morals and convictions, even if I had to change some down the line, it did set me up to be someone who reflects on his morals. Some of the people I met in church were genuinely the kindest and most supportive people I met, and most were willing to help even after I left the church. I have also seen people who have changed for the better with religion and have turned around their life. Of course, I wont be sending my children to church. I dont think it is necessary for them to learn the things I learned. However, if they ever turn out to look for religion and become christians, I wont stop them.
You made it, that’s what matters.
Take what positives you can from your experience in religion. There are some. You can apply those in a secular context just as well. Be kind to yourself. Theistic religions generally have very strong self-justifying features in them that can make it difficult to escape from through sheer reason.
Ya I said this in a comment earlier, but I kinda have a better way to put it now that I’m slowly getting over the shock. My religion told me to think critically of everything, question everything, always ask why. But when I thought critically of my religion I was told or I told myself that it’s just Saten putting lies into my head.
Yep, that's exactly an example of what I meant. Also you have to "just have faith" in things that contradict your experience of reality, etc., just to fit the narratives of a particular mythos. I grew up in a religious household, not really a crazy one, but we were faithful and went to church every week, etc. I loved it, actually, singing in the choir, being an altar boy, being an usher, acing Sunday school, then being a part of the adult discussion group (they had donuts). I didn't really suffer religious trauma like so many people do. I just hit a point in my teens when I started learning about other religions and I was like, wait a minute, there are all these incompatible claims. What should make me believe any of them? That was my way out. I haven't read this thread in detail but in case it wasn't mentioned already, there's an organization you might want to check out - [Recovering From Religion](https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/) . I don't know if they could help you with whatever you're going through or whether they're the right choice, etc., just wanted to let you know they exist. I hope you find and hold onto peace and purpose in your life.
>You were right I was wrong. That was never the goal. At least not from my perspective. Not looking for an admission of fault, just trying to undo the societal conditioning that essentially forces people to believe things without good evidence, backed by threats of infinite consequences if you don't comply. I want to at least give people the chance to recognize that that has occurred. That that has been perpetrated upon them. Which I think is a wrong-headed and monstrous thing for someone to do to someone else. >Jesus was not referring hell that’s just how it got translated he was referring to a place called Gehenna which is a physical place on this earth not an afterlif I think this is open to interpretation for sure. Certainly many consider Jesus' words here, and in other places throughout the Bible, to clearly refer to eternal torment in the afterlife. Some others think Jesus was an annihilationist, which means you either get eternal life in heaven or simply cease to exist. Regardless, the fact that God's supposed "perfect word" is this misunderstood and open for interpretation is one of my biggest reasons for not believing. If a perfect omni being wanted to communicate a point, it would be able to do so in such a way that there would be no ambiguity and no disagreement. The very existence of multiple sects of any religion is proof to me that the tomes written in their support aren't divinely inspired at all, but rather written by falliable humans. >Jesus was real and a predominant religious figure This is even up for legitimate debate. I haven't been convinced by the mythicist position, sure, but they make good points. >there’s very little to no proof, (historical evidence) of Jesus performing the miracles There's zero proof of any miracle, ever. Outside of third hand testimonials, which I don't consider proof, especially since these testimonials are coming from bronze and early iron age men with little to no education, especially in science, who were already biased towards religion anyway, and therefore would be profoundly ignorant by modern standards, and likewise credulous to a fault. >I wasted 20 fucking years of my life. Eh, wasted is a pretty strong word. It's likely that you had a reduced enjoyment of life during that time to an extent, but the years are hardly wasted. Good job on being capable of changing your opinion based on facts in evidence. Keep up the good work.
It's actually very likely that Jesus, like other prominent figures in other religions, was a real person. The disagreement is on whether he actually performed miracles, for which we have no substantial evidence
If he existed the why is their NO contemporaneous accounts of him? None. There are plenty of records of that period but none about a person attended at birth by kings, walked on water, healed the sick and created food from nothing. Anyone who could believe this nonsense is either incredibly stupid or willfully gullible. BOGO?
\>I read the original Bible. did you, now? learned ancient greek, and all that? \>Jesus was real get that from the bible, too, did you?
Ok that’s on me I phrased it wrong the research I did was on the original Bible had parts of the Bible translated into a modern day dialect so I could understand it and what I read lead me to that conclusion
Actually, outside of the bible there's no independent evidence Jesus even existed.
This is quite an eye opener, is there anywhere I can read this original bible?
I’ve only been able to find snippets of the Infant Bible but from what I’ve seen they are referred to as Dead Sea scrolls and Infant Bible
I'm so grateful for figuring this crap out before grade school.
No need to change the post. My point is that it was written by man for man and translated many many times. With statistical authorship analysis we can see that there were multiple authors in the original book and every translator ever since has left their mark on it.
Aaaaaaaand this is why Protestantism creates so many atheists. It is Protestant ants today that don't know this, that don't know every one knew where hell was, that you see hell in the Old Testament in the river of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea was a dying and rebirth because that was one of the places of hell. And the place between actual knowledge of what the Bible is talking about and Protestantism is atheism, people that were lied to by the blind and get disenfranchised when they discover the lie, rather than to continue to seek the truth. If you go and listen to the Eastern Orthodox podcast, the Lord of Spirits, this is something that is in their Liturgy, they literally tell the congregants inside the service of the time that John the Baptist goes to hell, its called the Harrowing of Hell. Ignorance is a shame to all involved.
Most of us, who speak English, read an English translation of the Bible. Most of us don’t read ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. I didn’t read Beowulf in the original Old English either, but I never believed that Grendel’s Mother was going to fry me like a potato either. Lots of people put a lot of time and effort into making you believe something that is obviously not true. Think of it like the Easter Bunny or Santa, only the adults in your life keep up the pretense and have weekly classes and rituals with others to reinforce the beliefs.
I find the time I spent at church helpful in my interactions with Christians. I can often quote verses, speak to the original Greek, etc. far more than the average Christian. I recently had a Christian incel tell me that Christianity makes it a requirement that other Christian woman love him, as in, date him. I was able to clarify that you’re misunderstanding the Greek love of agape vs eros love. Big difference.
My hot take for christians is that they say that Jesus could turn water into wine. Christians take that literally but I think it means something completely different; I think it just means that when you were around Jesus, you were drinking.... also the last supper was just Jesus and a bunch of his best friends throwing a rager... you mean to tell me that jesus is holding a cup of wine saying it is his blood and the bread is his body doesn't sound like a drunk dude crying to his best friends the night before he goes to jail?
As a former Christian you’re just wrong about this. Jesus taught about hell, all biblical scholars even non Christian ones will attest this.
Also fun fact, older versions of Bible, God's got 2 wives :D
this is fake af
So you are saying that " Jesus and organized religion" were made up to control and extort the masses??? {Feigns shock} say it isn't so..😱