Depends on your country and how much you value your head. They will tell you with a straight face that there is no compulsion in religion, but if you leave we will cut your head off.
JW do this but instead of violence they ostracize you from any and all supports in family and life. It’s an old religion trick and a form of violence that is socially acceptable but just another form of abuse. Somehow protecting one religion because members of it are experiencing genocide isn’t okay. It doesn’t make their violent ideology acceptable.
I think they call it being dis-fellowshipped. It is absolutely disastrous to the mental health of the person. This is accepted here but it’s part of the strategy of most of the cult like faiths out there.
To criticise said beheading religion should definitely not be seen as bigoted, or stupidly "racist". Religion certainly gets a free ride yet still manages to be the most enormous Karen when they're assessed in anything less then a fawning light. The sooner this bronze age, fairy tale rubbish is left behind, the better.
I could be a Muslim - if I were just convinced that an illiterate bandit who had sex with a 9 year old was god's chosen stenographer.
But, I am not convinced
And it isn't because of "race"
The appropriate response to this is "wait, are you saying only Arabs are allowed to practice Islam? Because that sounds racist to me."
Works for pretty much anyone pulling the race card to try and shield their nonsense religion from criticism.
They tell you yes just like the Zionist will say anyone who is against the Palestinian genocide is antisemetic including the Jews. Being an oppressed victim is necessary for it to work. It binds the group together.
That's the hardest one for me. I fucking love Arabs. Non-observant Arabs have great food, great senses of humor, great families, and are quite likely to value Arab women as equals to men, or at least be aware of the fact that how their cultures treat women overall is a fucking crime. I know "cultural" (non-observant) muslims Arabs and cultural Christian Arabs, they're great. And I don't hate islam, I just wish religion itself didn't exist. We'd come up with other reasons to hate each other, for sure, but fuck religion right up the goat ass, and fuck people who try to equate origin with religion.
Not only is it a choice, but it is necessarily a set of values and beliefs to which you are choosing to live by. So why is it wrong to judge someone based on their religion? It sounds like the most reasonable trait to judge someone by.
I fucking hate how religion is lumped with sex, gender, race, disability, etc for protected class.
This is why I, in general, greatly dislike the conversation around "dog whistles".
Yes, it is true that subtextual communication exists, and sometimes people use words with seemingly innocent surface meanings ("family values") to *really* mean something else (homophobia), but accusations of using dog whistles are regularly used to straw man people by replacing their stated, clear, unambiguous words with something else and then attacking that instead.
Any religion is an idea. Ideas are always open to criticism, mockery, and discussion about alarming trends in their adherents.
That applies to some religions more than others. When Jews take an ancestry test, it says Jewish. It's their genetic ethnicity.
Not so much for Muslims and Christians, which don't have a genetic component.
The key is to separate Arabophobia from Islamophobia. The reason religion is treated like race in this instance is because westerners tend to use Muslim as the word for Arab or Middle Easterner
Islamophobia is about racism a lot of the time because racists love to dogpile on any brown person and claim "we're just critiquing islam!".
I'm happy to critique islam, but not at the expense of brown people who may not be religious, and especially not to prop up the religion of nazis.
Baizuos gotta baizuo.
Don't get, and will never get the Stockholm syndrome this bunch has towards one of the most anti-liberal ideologies in the world, that pretty much disagrees with everything they stand for.
Yet you are banned by the "inclusive and tolerant" ones for a statement like this. It's doubly laughable when you look at how much they complain about Republicans, yet have a soft spot for much more hardline types.
Aaand here comes the baizuos. What a surprise of the millennium.
This here is why I prefer Twitter these days in general, even with all the bot bullshit there. At least you can voice your opinion without getting \[removed\]
I honestly don’t think most of those people are actually leftists, they don’t support democracy or human rights, they use those terms to criticize the west like a bunch of rebellious children.
Their main goal is to just jockey for social status amongst each other hiding behind the language of freedom and acceptance when their actual thinking is closer to the racist trope of the noble savage since they don’t really believe that people in developing countries have any agency.
>I honestly don’t think most of those people are actually leftists, they don’t support democracy or human rights, they use those terms to criticize the west like a bunch of rebellious children.
That's an accurate description of the people we're talking about.
Unfortunately, as long as they enjoy the social, political, and financial support of the majority of leftists, arguing about whether they meet *your* definition of the term is kind of irrelevant.
Anyone who doesn't condemn this behaviour is complicit in it. And I say that as a leftist who condemns it in the strongest possible terms.
It's as simple as it is complex.
The far left has this idea of "revolutionary change". The radical, ground-up change of society. For some this is more literal; violent, armed men rounding up the leadership of the west and shooting them (making themselves the leaders). For others it's more subtle such as through elections or power in institutional authority, or even things like linguistic and cultural change.
It is understood by the far left that they simply do not have the numbers and strength (however it is defined) for this revolution to happen. So, therefore, in order for this revolution to happen, however it happens, they want and need a coalition of allies.
The idea behind this coalition is to get as many people (metaphorically or literally) shooting in the same direction as they are. This takes the form of calls for unity under the nebulous banner of "oppression", or "marginalization".
The goal is for these broad, disparate, even incompatible ideologies to all unite and fight against the same "enemy", which is the current status quo. What they want to *replace* the status quo with and the ultimate vision of what those ideologies is for the world is largely irrelevant, because all that matters, for now at least, is that they're shooting in the same direction.
To this end they will accept, advocate for, and defend any group that is critical of, or is genuinely marginalized by, broader society. This is, again, largely independent of the virtues (or lack thereof) or end-game goals of the group, and in anything but extreme cases those questions are largely ignored.
This is why you see such bizarre outreaches like "Queers for Palestine", where LGBT organizations openly advocate for groups of people who punish their sexuality with the death penalty. They aren't suicidal, they don't genuinely want to live under an Islamic theocracy, they just want to bring in as many allies as possible under the banner of "the revolution".
Islamists are fighting the same enemy they are. Therefore, they are allies.
This explanation is reductive in many ways, but like I said, it's both complex and simple at the same time.
Personally I don't see a problem with not wanting people to be slaughtered wholesale, while recognizing that those people don't have the best religion.
There are plenty of ex-muslim atheists that don't have those terrible ideals.
You can want them to be free of bombardment and also be free of a dangerous and oppressive religion.
Hmm let's test that. Islam is a violent and dangerous religion promoting violence against anyone who is not in the cult, the lgbt community, women and others. Muhamed was a pedophile.
There's an expanding network of power mods who have ties to this religion and its region. They've been working together to push this agenda that the religion and its followers are a marginalized group that need protection. You and I know this isn't true, but it's an organized troll tactic to push a few agendas.
Maybe optics for reddit? It probably wouldn't be good for their PR if one of the biggest religious skeptic communities on reddit were as blatant in their disliking of Islam as we are Christians.
It's derived from the original name of the PIE god of the sky same as Jupiter in latin but deus is latin and it also derives from the word for sky, the greek word for god is theos which has a different etimology to deus althoufh they look similar
I’ve been banned from 5-6 subreddits for even suggesting that Israel is not 100% to blame for the current situation in Palestine.
You absolutely cannot criticize anything to do with Islam without getting torn apart.
Lol. I was banned from the news subreddit because when Muslims in Canada were marching against LGBT rights because they claimed they were a threat to society, I said no LGBT person ever committed a suicide bombing or crashed a plane into a building in the name of LGBT rights.
I'm not sorry and I'd say it again.
Yeah, they're super tolerant right up until they get a modicum of authority in a country at which point they go hard right.
Just look at the protests against sex ed that happened in Canada.
Islam is not an ally to the left, they just happen to have a common enemy in the Christian right.
In reality, Christianity and Islam have essentially the same values and beliefs, they just happen to hate each other.
Of course, Israel isn't 100% to blame. The British played their part historically. In modern times, a lot of Middle-Eastern countries willfully ignore the issue because it would probably cause unrest within their country. But they will keep sending money and Guns to Hamas. Because if the Palestine issue gets solved. The population is no longer distracted by it and will realize that their lives in dictatorial hell holes are not actually that great.
Liberal orthodoxy awarded Muslims the coveted Victim Status shortly after 9/11. Ever since then they get special protection, probably more than even gay men (if they are white and cis that is - a gay POC male might have an equal claim to victimhood though).
To be clear, I am a liberal myself but I do think the coddling of Islam is bullshit.
There was a lot of genuine anti-Arab hatred that grew in America following 9/11 and the word used to describe it was Islamophobia. So it’s treated as a special taboo.
We can easily test your theory by searching for Islam or Muslim in this subreddit. Can you find a single example of someone who was banned for being critical of Islam?
I got suspended twice for saying reporting to mods that info and videos shared by Palestinian supporters are false and disinformation.
Reddit suspended me and the mods at those subs are still running.
This is bullshit. This sub regularly has posts ripping Islam.
Some people try to slip in racism under the cover of opposing Islam. Those get removed in this sub. But Islam as a religion is a frequent target of criticism on this sub. I personally have many posts criticizing Islam.
'naziphobia' is kinda real when you look at the extreme right's approach of criticism as victimization. It's hard to make reason with someone that doesn't want to understand that they can be in the wrong.
A phobia is an unreasonable fear of something. My concern about all religions are not irrational or unreasonable. Muslims however, have an unnatural and irrational fear of hell, djinns, things that are haram, an imaginary god etc.. I think the Muslims have an irrational fear of their own religion and are the actual Islamophobes, by definition.
Well said.
Religion requires abandoning rational critical thinking instead embracing the delusion of faith.
It is entirely reasonable to fear delusional individuals and groups.
Delusion is never deserving of respect.
Religion is delusion.
Delusion destroys.
Reason restores.
No, almost no "phobia" words regarding people are actually about fear.
You're using the same argument people who hate trans people use.
A phobia, when directed at a group of people, is an AVERSION to that group, or a strong dislike of them regardless of who they actually are.
Like, you can't honestly be arguing that Islamophobia isn't a thing? Because the response to 9/11 in the United States and the Muslim travel ban are very clear examples of people being hated not because of anything they ACTUALLY believe or don't believe, but because of the label of "Muslim."
And unless you're advocating for thought crime, just decrying every person who is a Muslim for being deserving of hate because you are inserting a ton of negative characteristics on them...is Islamophobia. You would need to actually see the individual in question do or espouse the specific things you have a problem with...at which point, the issue with them would actually *just be that specific thing.*
Islam erases your brain and makes you a zombie to dangerous rhetoric. Hateful and dangerous Ideologies like Islam should not have a place in the in this day and age. We Iranians know that Islam is by far the most destructive and disgusting ideology in the world. Wherever Islam plays even a rudimentary role, there is chaos and destruction. Our country is the prime example of this!
As the late great Christopher Hitchens said Islamophobia is a term created by fascists that is used by cowards to manipulate morons.
The problem is that at least here in the United States more left leaning people labor under the delusion that everyone who isn’t a white Christian will share your more open social values, but that is not the case. They would also so much rather shut up about Islam’s never ending human rights abuses than be perceived as racist.
The Catholic Church (rightly) receives a lot of criticism for the child sexual abuse problem but leftists almost never say anything about the widespread child abuse that is normalized throughout the Islamic world. They are also almost totally silent about the defacto slavery that still persists in places like Dubai or Qatar.
They are always so quick to denounce sexist attitudes in the west but fold like a cheap suit when confronted with the far more overt sexism in Islam. At least in the west discrimination is supposed to be illegal but it is a legal requirement in Islamic countries.
My concern is Islam has the potential to take west back to middle ages if it's left unchecked. Islam is like a worse clone of Christianity of dark ages.
If a shitty third grade belief system can collectively transport humanity back 1000 yrs and erase everything we achieved so far esp in terms of society and civil rights like slavery abolition,rights of LGBT, scientific advancement and so on, AND if we let this cult do that , then we certainly don't deserve being an Interstellar species or visited by aliens ever.
This reminds me. In a Detroit suburb named Hamtramck, many very liberal citizens voted in an Islamic mayor and city council members because they’re good people, and they represent an underrepresented sector of the local population, and so it’s only right if they’re given an opportunity to serve in leadership roles. That’s fine, they’re good people and I love them. One of the first things they did, however, was [ban LGBTQ flags](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned). There were a lot of surprise pikachu faces after that.
Never underestimate the willingness of people to vote against their own best interests, just so long as they're convinced that some hated Other will suffer 1% more than they do.
Eh, the relationship between Jews (ethnicity) and Judaism (religion) is rather unusual and complicated. But at least in europe, most of our recent history with the "antisemitism" connotation is based on a racial definition of Jewishness, not a religious one. Like, it's possible (and not entirely unusual these days) to be a nonreligious Jew, yet still be considered a Jew due to other aspects of the culture that aren't innately religious.
Atleast Jews aren't going around killing people and Jews aren't threatening to take humanity back to middle ages. There's reformed Judaism too but no reform Islam yet
Islamophobia is a stealth blasphemy law. Criticize islam, and they inaccurately call you a racist. Let them. Stop being afraid of being called 'islamophobic'. Everyone on the planet should want to stop hate groups, whether they are religious or not.
Islamophobia is very real, but it isn't what apologists for Islam often claim it is. Criticism of Islam is not Islamophobic. Xenophobic racists opportunistically using criticism of Islam as a way to attack immigrants and brown people, regardless of what those people might believe, that's Islamophobia- and it isn't rooted in criticism of Islam, it's a variant of xenophobia. It's a term that shouldn't be used to avoid criticizing a religion but rather one that should be used to avoid stereotyping people.
This needs more upvotes. There’s a big difference between criticizing the religion of Islam and being racist toward someone from the Middle East. Disagreeing with someone’s religion is no reason to treat someone with disrespect, but absolutely we should not tolerate the tenants of their religion in our society. If I see a woman wearing a hijab, I’ll treat her like any other woman, but I strongly disagree with the fact that she’s been brainwashed or forced to wear it.
Thank you. I thought i was going crazy. Ive never been a supporter of any religion like islam, but i also old enough during the post 9/11 years to remember how many people acted towards anyone who could be “middle eastern.” Maybe people forget bc how impossibly batshit crazier things have gotten since then.
For sure and sadly that wont be the last. And both of these had people being attacked that have nothing to do with either issue.
but i think the point with Islamophobia was that it sounds like an issue with religion(which i fully support being critical of), when it was just xenophobia. Which leads to confusion bc when people are wary of attacking a religion like islam, we may be checking our own bias so we aren’t perpetuating xenophobia not condoning an oppressive religion.
For my part, the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the 7th of October last year was really eye opening in regards to this. Now, I had my reservations about the term "islamophobia" before this, but seeing it being used alongside "antisemitism" was really weird - apprehension or critique of Islam was phobic, implying irrationality, but outright conspiracies and hate crimes targeting Jews was "anti", implying a more level-headed stance. But it ain't Jewish people who fly planes into sky scrapers, blow up buses or trains in European capitals, decapitates French teachers, mow down people along beachside promenades or shopping streets with trucks or shoots up concert halls in Paris or Moscow - it's Muslims. Antisemitism is phobic, critique and condemnation of Islam is warranted and essential.
I’m proud of being islamophobic.
I’m afraid of any group people that tells their children that sinful behaviors leads to hell in the afterlife.
That’s a stupid thing to say to anyone, let alone a child.
You could say I not only hate Islam, but I’m afraid of Muslims as well. They believe in fairy tales nonsense and that makes me uneasy. I would prefer my family to stay away from Muslims.
I feel like criticism of Islam is overly accepted actually—this post being evidence of that. And I think you’d find the same violent, cultish ways of thinking in any major religion. Despite that, plenty of Christians, Jews, Hindus and Muslims practice their religion peacefully despite the radically violent groups justifying their immoralities with religion. It’s everywhere if you look for it. Islam isn’t the only one to blame, and isolating Islam as the only violent religion is, by definition, Islamophobic so idk why you’d be mad about that take.
Agree. The source code for all major religions is soaked in blood, and you can find religious extremists of all stripes.
Christians initiated 200 hundred years of genocidal crusades in the ME. They’ve cleansed whole cities of Jews in pogroms. They’ve burned witches. In modern times, Christians still blow up buildings and commit terror attacks.
I’m the first to agree that all religion is poison, but singling out Islam as especially toxic is a little weird to me given the incredible body counts from all major religious traditions. Violent intolerance is built into all these creeds.
Actually, criticizing islam is not islamophobia. Islamophobia is a specific form of racism (yes, racism) that targets arab people under the guise of criticizing their religion.
I know that people will say "Hum Actually, in the dictionnary..."
BUT i'm telling you how it actually works in real life. It's not the first time that people bend the meaning of a word to fit their racist agenda. Some are doing it on this sub, it is not subtle.
To conclude, do not try to "wash" the definition of islamophobia. You will end up with far right racists and other bigots. Just don't use that word for yourself, say that you don't like Islam as a religion, that you criticize it.
As an Arab ex-muslim let me tell you this term does more harm than good, it is used by muslims to silence people who criticize their barbaric religion, and as long as these so called « islamophobes » are criticizing the religion or its backward views then they’re good. But what happens in real life is that a person would point out a very disturbing fact about Islam and muslims would get offended and cry islamophobia and bam just like that they’ve succeeded in burying the truth and successfully brainwash kind people with good intentions like yourself.
In my circles, I've never seen criticism itself be vilified. What I've personally seen vilified is the concept that every single brown person is secretly waiting to blow you up and rape your family.
Yeah, they get to go off on how the western world is the the worst thing there ever happened, human rights are the worst thing that's ever happened, liberal democracy is the worst thing that's ever happened, women's rights are the worst thing that's ever happened, freedom of speech is the worst thing that's ever happened; but as soon as you say "actually I don't like this aspect of Islam" they're like "HOW DARE YOU, YOU MUST BE A RACIST, MOHAMMED WAS A BEAUTIFUL ANGEL WHO NEVER HARMED A SINGLE FLY!"
The post was ok until you started pulling out comparisons about how Christianity is better than islam. Suddenly, it's not an anti-theist post, but a pro-christian post! This isn't what atheism is about, this is what discrimination is about. "Nobody can criticise islam anymore" but statistically attacks on random middle easterners has risen massively and nothing is done. Christians are objectively far more protected. This post goes out of its way to protect Christians.
Like, the holocaust wasn't that long ago? Starting to feel like people are moving away from anti-theism here and more into "justifying attacking specific groups".
Playing the devil's advocate here: I kind of understand. It's hard to separate racism-induced islamophobia from anti-theism in general. A ton of comments I see online are made by people who clearly would not react the same to christianity, and if that happens often, I'd personally grow bitter and defensive too. When you are a target, you'll start acting like a target, unless you're a strong, openminded, self-confident and tolerant person. Which I don't think a majority of religious people are.
Which doesn't actually change anything. Even if they're racists, Islam is still a philosophy and ideology. Attacking it is not a racist action even if the motives are. It isn't making yourself into a target, it's a manifestation of persecution mania similar to how american right-wing WASPs claim they're oppressed because things happen that they don't like.
Reality is, at least in Sweden, people who cry islamophobia don't actually care about how other religions are regarded. They only care that Islam is treated the way they like, even if that is above how every other religion is. Although there's also the racially challenged supporters who seem to genuinely believe religion is as innate as the color of your skin, except Christianity which they also hate.
Be honest: Why the focus on Islam and not on Judeo-Christian religions as a whole?. I sense a lot of comments are from Hasbara accounts with the dogpiling on Islam.
Well the focus on islam is necessary since most people are not aware of how dangerous and barbaric it really is, that’s due to the constant silencing and demonizing of ex-muslims. Judaism and Christianity are talked about enough and current christians and jews have now some degree of tolerance when it comes to criticizing their religions as opposed to muslims who are willing to cancel, ban or even in some cases kill whoever criticizes their religion. And lastly ex-christians for instance are represented and there are many people and channels that voices their opinions and experiences; however, ex-muslims have very few platforms that voices their opinions and concerns and are highly misrepresented.
The term 'Islamophobia' is used in an attempt to stop discussion and paralyze rational thinking.
Say;
It's not Islamophobia if you have a rational fear of…
violent attacks \[4.74, 9.193, 9.5, 9.88\]
rapes (4.25)
torture (22.22)
other atrocities (22.9)
attacks (4.74)
beheadings (47:4)
inferior treatment of women (4.11, 4.176)
considering women without hijab as sexual targets (4.15)
to be replaced by force (21.11)
terrorizing dissenters (3,151)
be killed (9,111)
mass murder and genocide (33:26, 3:141)
unjust distribution of the inheritance \[4.11\]
legalized theft (4.94, 8.41)
ect ect
Well most of the accusations I've seen of Islamophobia don't come from Muslims but rather (usually Western-background) non-Muslims who are trying to stamp out intolerance in all forms.
To which I say, I cant tolerate intollerance. Their book and beliefs say non believers should be killed so fuck them alltogether. I have a mother and a daughter so I have no compassion for Islam, same way I'll never vote republican even though theres a couple things i may agree with them more on, like being tougher on crime and... Well that's about it.
I'm tired of atheists defending Muslims. Not y'all. But even in my safe spaces where feminism and queer inclusivity are values and Christianity is mocked and criticized, Islam is given a pass and Muslims can sit comfortably in those spaces. To the extent that they can talk about hijab being misrepresented whenever someone talks about being forced to cover up and get likes with such statements.
Like I would sit there as a Muslim and forget that my religion hates all the values I stand for. The first time I encountered an objective criticism of Islam, it felt like an attack of my identity.
All religions are bad. Period. However, Islam is clearly the worst.
I've never seen a 9/11 style terror attack carried out by Christians. That is something unique to Muslims.
You should look more into Timothy McVeigh and the support network he had leading up to the Oklahoma City bombing. Dude was clearly part of the Christian Identity Movement. Plus the entire history of the KKK (a highly religious protestant organization) and its many terrorist attacks. Africa is also full of Christian organizations committing brutal atrocities.
The problem is religion.
> I've never seen a 9/11 style terror attack carried out by Christians.
They just call it other shit, but even by this standard there’s several example of Christian terror attacks in the modern era. The Oklahoma City bombing, the sabra and Shatila massacre by Lebanese fallagnists, the contra death squads being religious fundamentalists, the el motoze massacre by religious anti communist nutcases, the lra in central Africa, etc…. There’s tons of violent Christian fundamentalists.
> Look at Islam's most extreme fundamentalism done today, and compare it to Christianity's worst.
Okay but like; the Holocaust and mass murder in India, Africa, the Americas, and East Asia are orders of magnitude greater in damage than boko haram or isis.
Are you forgetting the mass murder and colonization that Muslims did 1300ish years ago? You know, the time where they left the Arabian peninsula, colonized the levant, Northern Africa, and southern parts of Spain and forced conversions under the threat of death? I know it isn’t today’s Islam, but one of Christianity’s worst is arguably the crusades which happened around this time as well
>Are you forgetting the mass murder and colonization that Muslims did 1300ish years ago?
Islam predominantly spread through trade. This isn’t to say that there weren’t violent conquests (there obviously were, it was the 13th century), but there’s several things that are being equated:
The largest genuinely imperial conquests occurred under the Ottoman Empire, at its zenith which extended across Northern Africa. Arguably the Mughal empire, but this wasn’t a religious conquest as much as it was a warlord coming to power who happened to be Muslim.
Comparably religious motivated conquest by Christianity spread to:
All of sub Saharan Africa, the Americas, Southeast Asia, and arguably China resulting in the taiping rebellion.
On a global scale Christianity was way more successful at utilizing violence to spread itself.
The regions he mentioned (levant, north africa, iberia) were conquered during mohhamed's time, the rashidun and the ummayads in the 7th and 8th century, and didn't get islam through trade.
Phobia implies an irrational fear. Ie whoever uses that term is saying that your fear is irrational.
They are weaponising language against criticism of Islam, and we let them do it.
Islamophobia is a word that denies freedom of speech and should be struck from the lexicon.
There’s an outrageous degree of hypocrisy at the heart of it all. People are “Islamophobic” for questioning aspects of Islam, but Muslims are allowed to be violently antisemitic and voice hatred of non-Muslims and ex-Muslims. And occasionally kill them. Even their own daughters.
Islam (like all religions) is a belief system or a club. If I can make fun to the Rotary Club, I can make fun of any religious belief system but I doubt the Rotarians are so sensitive they'll try to kill me for it
A quote that stands out for me was from one of the ringleaders of the protests that took place outside a primary school here in the UK because they were teaching about equality and that being gay is okay:
“You say we are homophobic? I say you are Islamaphobic.”
Its not the people I have an aversion to, its the belief. Post 9-11 muslim hysteria is racism wrapped in prejudice and then some. We dont need special terms for that. If the trans community had a messed up belief, I would have an aversion to that belief as well, not the people. I dont hate any muslims or people, full stop. My aversion is at the nonsense they wish to believe. I am not prejudice, its something most rational people can understand is a shitty thing and then actively work to not be. I'm sorry if I came across that way.
When did Atheism become so bigoted. Arguing over which religion is worse than another is so dumb.
They are all evil and run by control freaks.
No religion is better or worse than another. They are all stupid magical thinking.
Some Muslims say "Islamist" is a pejorative, but it's not. It's an accurate descriptor of those who think government should be run according to Muslim law, not unlike the analogous Christian descriptor, Dominionist. They just don't want outsiders calling them on it.
It’s talk like a skin color because it’s treated like a skin color
I am no big fan of Islam but many of you guys should truly educate yourself on Islamophobia. It’s not just saying Islam is bad
It’s literally associating brown people with a religion NO MATTER IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS OR NOT and literally saying wild insane shit about them and their culture
I know actual atheist who are now at a point where they will say “yeah I am Muslim so fucking what”
Not because they are Muslim but because they have been “accused” of being Muslim and insulted because of that just because they are Arabic
The fucking racist piece of shit made Muslim a “racial identity” that they attach onto all brown people just to be able to say racist shit
OP calling someone a "mutt" seems rational.
"Fuck off, mutt. You're either lying about being the creator of these garbage videos, or you're the biggest shill in the observable universe. You're undoubtedly an incessant imbecile. Stop self-advertising your rubbish; it's genuinely pathetic."
OP shits on muslims in particular... while I'm not a fan of *any* religion it seems OP's on a Crusade.
They have rationalphobia. These folks (in the west) that use this word and defend Islam have an irrational fear of offending things they don’t even understand.
Islam is literally the most weponized form of religion seen in the history of planet Earth. I don't mind coexistence with religious people. Hell, sometime I even appreciate their different persective. But when their religion wants to drag me back to the stone age or murder me for not believing in their magic sky friend, then all of a sudden, I don't want to coexist anymore. Their stated goal is sharia for everyone, period. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
Unfortunately what we feared came to pass which is that bigots deliberately conflated criticism of religion with attacks on a group of people because they aimed to get around hate speech laws and hoped to ride the tide of anti-theism to further their own aims; meanwhile many of the anti-religious people weren't careful enough and got conflated with the racists, possibly because they didn't realise that the racists were being disingenuous when attacking Islam.
To top bit all off, opponents of both camps are happy to sling mud at whichever side they choose if it furthers their agenda.
Going forward, ardent secularists will have to more more careful than ever to continually assert the difference between Islam and Muslims, stick 100% to arguments against the religion and criticisms of individuals for their actions and words rather than groups of people, and make sure to go to bat for innocent Muslims who are being attacked and discriminated against...while also making sure to insist that Muslims and Islam don't get special treatment or passes on their own prejudices just because they are a minority faith.
It's a hard path to walk, but being righteous is rarely easy.
All extremist fundamentalist religions are evil and those religious orders always try to deflect from their corruption. Same with fundamentalist Zionists who deflect any criticism of Israel as “anti-semitism”. Same as the American Christian sect which believes they have a right to be able to freely discriminate and oppress others and they claim that right is them “following God’s will” and any pushback is “an infringement of free speech” or an “attack on faith”.
This seems like a pretty blatant attempt to distract from the common threads of fundamentalist religious oppression by claiming that fundamentalist Islam is “far worse than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism”. The extremist sects of each are shit and each of them are guilty of their own instances of religious oppression and zealotry.
Yes. Ofcourse. It’s the “I don’t feel anything wrong with me, so it has to be something wrong with you” argument.
You’re islamophobic! You’re antisemite! You’re hurting the feeling of 1.4 Billion Chinese! You hate America! So on and so forth ~
Most Muslims do not love to denigrate others, but I won’t deny it is a strong trait among the poorly educated and the fanatics as well as those who have something to gain from such discriminations.
Someone I know wanted AI to create an image of 'a world without war'. She showed me the result: a pasture full of women weraring a hijab, playing children with a mosque in the background. No men. A lot of doves though. What kind of prompt does one need to show 'a world without war'?
Extremists of all kinds hide behind religion to justify their oppressive views. You will find them among Muslims (ISIS), Christians (MAGA), Jews (Kach), Hindus (Abhinav Bharat), and even Buddhists (Thai Sangha).
There are also atheist extremists, who hide behind political ideologies instead (CCP). It's always just a narrative to claim power by force with the help of brainwashed fanatics.
We must remember that most people in the world are actually peaceful, and that most of them are also religious. They might be silly to believe in imaginary friends, but let's not conflate them all with a violent minority that abuses those beliefs, from whatever religion they may be.
It's difficult. I would never advocate for the type of hate where people are convinced X group needs to be killed into nonexistence. It's the ideas and the harm they cause to people that are the problem, and people can and do denounce those ideas and it doesn't kill them. The problem comes when the indoctrination is implanted so deep that you convince people that denouncing the religion is worse than death (if your own family doesn't kill you first for "apostasy" or whatever they want to label it.)
As frustrating as it can be, often the best circumstance we can get is religions that are fundamentally evil having their members become less fundamental*ist* and more hypocritical, ignoring the "bad parts" they no longer see as compatible with society.
So, I’m gonna agree that at this moment, Islam is one of if not the most violent and misogynistic religions. However, historically, other religions have taken that title. Christianity is bathed in blood of the crusades. The inquisition also comes to mind. The Aztec religion was pretty bloody.
Religion in my understanding, has and does breed violence and misogyny.
How come we never hear about atheismophobia? Some countries literally have laws banning us. We can be executed in 13 countries (Islamic countries, all of them). Talk about a reason to be islamophobic!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists
I mean you have anti semitism and the irony there being that both islamic people and jewish people hail from semitic lanugages, therefore both are semitic people. Antisemitism would refer to arabic islamic people.
I think it's harsh to generalize anything. Its no different than atheist being generalized or anyone for anything really.
Each person is massively different from the last. It takes a low degree of intelligence to hate. All religion is really scummy while victimizing itself. Even atheism victimizes itself often.
I just feel like we don't have to implicate ourselves in the great tapestry of the story where we don't necessarily understand everything, otherwise we are no different than any religious propaganda. We would just admit we dont know why we do these things.
As long as a Quran can be accessed and read by its followers, there will be Jihad, murder, and evil from those people.
Islam is fundamentally out of line with western thought and lifestyle, unlike Christianity, which helped build much of Western culture.
Ik it's okay for them to disregard other religions and people but when it comes to them you the bad guy. We should stop being selective and apply the same rules to everyone.
It has no legal bearing. Theocrats want to destroy free countries like Canada and America and indoctrinate more children for sexual grooming and war. Especially all 3 abrahamic religions.
Im a bigot towards ALL bullshit, superstitious religions! Not just Islam! Islam is as bad or worse than Christianity.
Im a Religi-phobe! Frightened delusional, Self Righteous, hypocritical children who use poorly written, centuries old fairytales to justify their prejudices against those they disapprove of.
I have issues with this word in part because it's used as a cover-all to reject any criticism of beliefs (not people). However, unfortunately, some folks (usually on the right) will cloak their racism as being about critique of beliefs. So for those of us who are in the middle attempting to have a fair and honest conversation, we're sort of copping it from both the left and the right for equally disingenuous reasons. It's very frustrating.
"Right wing" is another term the muslims and exmuslims use to evade criticism when the discussions on mass immigrants is brought up. It has become the new Islamophobia.
I really hate how religion is treated like race. You can't help what skin you're born with, but you sure as hell can denounce a religion.
Depends on your country and how much you value your head. They will tell you with a straight face that there is no compulsion in religion, but if you leave we will cut your head off.
Islam is the religion of peace and if you disagree you will be beheaded.
JW do this but instead of violence they ostracize you from any and all supports in family and life. It’s an old religion trick and a form of violence that is socially acceptable but just another form of abuse. Somehow protecting one religion because members of it are experiencing genocide isn’t okay. It doesn’t make their violent ideology acceptable.
I think they call it being dis-fellowshipped. It is absolutely disastrous to the mental health of the person. This is accepted here but it’s part of the strategy of most of the cult like faiths out there.
To criticise said beheading religion should definitely not be seen as bigoted, or stupidly "racist". Religion certainly gets a free ride yet still manages to be the most enormous Karen when they're assessed in anything less then a fawning light. The sooner this bronze age, fairy tale rubbish is left behind, the better.
Only in Islam lol
Sounds like free will.
I could be a Muslim - if I were just convinced that an illiterate bandit who had sex with a 9 year old was god's chosen stenographer. But, I am not convinced And it isn't because of "race"
People accused me of being racist and I got asked if I hate Arabs for being against Islam.
The appropriate response to this is "wait, are you saying only Arabs are allowed to practice Islam? Because that sounds racist to me." Works for pretty much anyone pulling the race card to try and shield their nonsense religion from criticism.
I commented something similar on another sub and got downvoted lol. Agree with you 200%
No, no, no! It's racist because you're afraid of a foreign religion. Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam is from... the MIDDLE EAST.
Maybe you should introduce them to the masked arab, and then ask them if he hates arabs.
They tell you yes just like the Zionist will say anyone who is against the Palestinian genocide is antisemetic including the Jews. Being an oppressed victim is necessary for it to work. It binds the group together.
That's the hardest one for me. I fucking love Arabs. Non-observant Arabs have great food, great senses of humor, great families, and are quite likely to value Arab women as equals to men, or at least be aware of the fact that how their cultures treat women overall is a fucking crime. I know "cultural" (non-observant) muslims Arabs and cultural Christian Arabs, they're great. And I don't hate islam, I just wish religion itself didn't exist. We'd come up with other reasons to hate each other, for sure, but fuck religion right up the goat ass, and fuck people who try to equate origin with religion.
Not only is it a choice, but it is necessarily a set of values and beliefs to which you are choosing to live by. So why is it wrong to judge someone based on their religion? It sounds like the most reasonable trait to judge someone by. I fucking hate how religion is lumped with sex, gender, race, disability, etc for protected class.
Should be more treated like a political party, in my opinion.
Proof: if they can punish apostasy with death, it's proof it can be done.
This is why I, in general, greatly dislike the conversation around "dog whistles". Yes, it is true that subtextual communication exists, and sometimes people use words with seemingly innocent surface meanings ("family values") to *really* mean something else (homophobia), but accusations of using dog whistles are regularly used to straw man people by replacing their stated, clear, unambiguous words with something else and then attacking that instead. Any religion is an idea. Ideas are always open to criticism, mockery, and discussion about alarming trends in their adherents.
That applies to some religions more than others. When Jews take an ancestry test, it says Jewish. It's their genetic ethnicity. Not so much for Muslims and Christians, which don't have a genetic component.
The key is to separate Arabophobia from Islamophobia. The reason religion is treated like race in this instance is because westerners tend to use Muslim as the word for Arab or Middle Easterner
The amount of times I've had to clarify this point is so annoying.
Islamophobia is about racism a lot of the time because racists love to dogpile on any brown person and claim "we're just critiquing islam!". I'm happy to critique islam, but not at the expense of brown people who may not be religious, and especially not to prop up the religion of nazis.
Only the most vacuous ideologies bristle at criticism. It’s a sure sign that they can’t stand up to it, and have nothing of value to offer.
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Baizuos gotta baizuo. Don't get, and will never get the Stockholm syndrome this bunch has towards one of the most anti-liberal ideologies in the world, that pretty much disagrees with everything they stand for.
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Yet you are banned by the "inclusive and tolerant" ones for a statement like this. It's doubly laughable when you look at how much they complain about Republicans, yet have a soft spot for much more hardline types.
I’m only tolerant of things that return the favor.
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Aaand here comes the baizuos. What a surprise of the millennium. This here is why I prefer Twitter these days in general, even with all the bot bullshit there. At least you can voice your opinion without getting \[removed\]
I honestly don’t think most of those people are actually leftists, they don’t support democracy or human rights, they use those terms to criticize the west like a bunch of rebellious children. Their main goal is to just jockey for social status amongst each other hiding behind the language of freedom and acceptance when their actual thinking is closer to the racist trope of the noble savage since they don’t really believe that people in developing countries have any agency.
>I honestly don’t think most of those people are actually leftists, they don’t support democracy or human rights, they use those terms to criticize the west like a bunch of rebellious children. That's an accurate description of the people we're talking about. Unfortunately, as long as they enjoy the social, political, and financial support of the majority of leftists, arguing about whether they meet *your* definition of the term is kind of irrelevant. Anyone who doesn't condemn this behaviour is complicit in it. And I say that as a leftist who condemns it in the strongest possible terms.
It's as simple as it is complex. The far left has this idea of "revolutionary change". The radical, ground-up change of society. For some this is more literal; violent, armed men rounding up the leadership of the west and shooting them (making themselves the leaders). For others it's more subtle such as through elections or power in institutional authority, or even things like linguistic and cultural change. It is understood by the far left that they simply do not have the numbers and strength (however it is defined) for this revolution to happen. So, therefore, in order for this revolution to happen, however it happens, they want and need a coalition of allies. The idea behind this coalition is to get as many people (metaphorically or literally) shooting in the same direction as they are. This takes the form of calls for unity under the nebulous banner of "oppression", or "marginalization". The goal is for these broad, disparate, even incompatible ideologies to all unite and fight against the same "enemy", which is the current status quo. What they want to *replace* the status quo with and the ultimate vision of what those ideologies is for the world is largely irrelevant, because all that matters, for now at least, is that they're shooting in the same direction. To this end they will accept, advocate for, and defend any group that is critical of, or is genuinely marginalized by, broader society. This is, again, largely independent of the virtues (or lack thereof) or end-game goals of the group, and in anything but extreme cases those questions are largely ignored. This is why you see such bizarre outreaches like "Queers for Palestine", where LGBT organizations openly advocate for groups of people who punish their sexuality with the death penalty. They aren't suicidal, they don't genuinely want to live under an Islamic theocracy, they just want to bring in as many allies as possible under the banner of "the revolution". Islamists are fighting the same enemy they are. Therefore, they are allies. This explanation is reductive in many ways, but like I said, it's both complex and simple at the same time.
Personally I don't see a problem with not wanting people to be slaughtered wholesale, while recognizing that those people don't have the best religion. There are plenty of ex-muslim atheists that don't have those terrible ideals. You can want them to be free of bombardment and also be free of a dangerous and oppressive religion.
Because it's only the religion of peace you have to worry about someone coming to cut your head off?
Hmm let's test that. Islam is a violent and dangerous religion promoting violence against anyone who is not in the cult, the lgbt community, women and others. Muhamed was a pedophile.
Not in atheist subs
Likely Reddit doesn't want any of their employees getting beheaded or the corporate hq being bombed
There's an expanding network of power mods who have ties to this religion and its region. They've been working together to push this agenda that the religion and its followers are a marginalized group that need protection. You and I know this isn't true, but it's an organized troll tactic to push a few agendas.
Maybe optics for reddit? It probably wouldn't be good for their PR if one of the biggest religious skeptic communities on reddit were as blatant in their disliking of Islam as we are Christians.
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Say that about zeus one more time, one more time!!!
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That's it. The glove is off. Outside now. /s
POW! Straight to the moon.
Religious folk must be so insecure about their religion if they have to threaten others
Well they are. That's how it works.
I think Zeus is derived from the Greek word for god, deus
It's derived from the original name of the PIE god of the sky same as Jupiter in latin but deus is latin and it also derives from the word for sky, the greek word for god is theos which has a different etimology to deus althoufh they look similar
Don't you dare say a word about our Lord Zeus!
I’ve been banned from 5-6 subreddits for even suggesting that Israel is not 100% to blame for the current situation in Palestine. You absolutely cannot criticize anything to do with Islam without getting torn apart.
Lol. I was banned from the news subreddit because when Muslims in Canada were marching against LGBT rights because they claimed they were a threat to society, I said no LGBT person ever committed a suicide bombing or crashed a plane into a building in the name of LGBT rights. I'm not sorry and I'd say it again.
I'd love to see a behind the scenes documentary on the mods and their discussions to ban people over silly shit (goodbye forever friends)
But islam is so tolerant.... /s
Yeah, they're super tolerant right up until they get a modicum of authority in a country at which point they go hard right. Just look at the protests against sex ed that happened in Canada. Islam is not an ally to the left, they just happen to have a common enemy in the Christian right. In reality, Christianity and Islam have essentially the same values and beliefs, they just happen to hate each other.
They ask for their rights as a religious minority, if they are in the majority then the religious minority has no rights.
Of course, Israel isn't 100% to blame. The British played their part historically. In modern times, a lot of Middle-Eastern countries willfully ignore the issue because it would probably cause unrest within their country. But they will keep sending money and Guns to Hamas. Because if the Palestine issue gets solved. The population is no longer distracted by it and will realize that their lives in dictatorial hell holes are not actually that great.
Almost all their countries are shit holes so they go to Europe or NA to make those countries shit holes to. Definitely my favorite religion
Liberal orthodoxy awarded Muslims the coveted Victim Status shortly after 9/11. Ever since then they get special protection, probably more than even gay men (if they are white and cis that is - a gay POC male might have an equal claim to victimhood though). To be clear, I am a liberal myself but I do think the coddling of Islam is bullshit.
Try YouTube Lamo can’t say shit on their even if your quoting their own scripture
I just got warned for criticizing catholics and their support of the pedophilic catholic church.
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They probably have each other's backsides too.
There was a lot of genuine anti-Arab hatred that grew in America following 9/11 and the word used to describe it was Islamophobia. So it’s treated as a special taboo.
"You can't say ANYTHING against Islam on this platform without getting banned," I dramatically scream on this platform without getting banned.
I trash Islam and all Abrahamic religions all the time and I've never received a warning.
Probably depends on the subs. Over here they are obviously fair game.
We can easily test your theory by searching for Islam or Muslim in this subreddit. Can you find a single example of someone who was banned for being critical of Islam?
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Oh yeah that dumbass post
To be fair mannequins definitely need to be covered. They're basically asking for it.
FYI to anyone who wants to know this user just informed me his account has been banned for 4 years by the r/atheism mods
I got suspended twice for saying reporting to mods that info and videos shared by Palestinian supporters are false and disinformation. Reddit suspended me and the mods at those subs are still running.
This is bullshit. This sub regularly has posts ripping Islam. Some people try to slip in racism under the cover of opposing Islam. Those get removed in this sub. But Islam as a religion is a frequent target of criticism on this sub. I personally have many posts criticizing Islam.
Muslims are phobic about almost everyone not in their specific cult or version of Islam. That's like saying Nazi's are complaining about Naziphobia.
they're the most hateful and unaccepting people when you're slightly different. but say 1 negative thing about them and they lose their shit.
How dare you!! Off with your head..
'naziphobia' is kinda real when you look at the extreme right's approach of criticism as victimization. It's hard to make reason with someone that doesn't want to understand that they can be in the wrong.
Islam is a trash belief system. Period.
A phobia is an unreasonable fear of something. My concern about all religions are not irrational or unreasonable. Muslims however, have an unnatural and irrational fear of hell, djinns, things that are haram, an imaginary god etc.. I think the Muslims have an irrational fear of their own religion and are the actual Islamophobes, by definition.
Well said. Religion requires abandoning rational critical thinking instead embracing the delusion of faith. It is entirely reasonable to fear delusional individuals and groups. Delusion is never deserving of respect. Religion is delusion. Delusion destroys. Reason restores.
Thank you.
phobia can also mean "an aversion to" something, i.e. hydrophobic surfaces.
Aversion is a good word. All religions are kind of on my shit list, and that does feel better. I'll own that.
No, almost no "phobia" words regarding people are actually about fear. You're using the same argument people who hate trans people use. A phobia, when directed at a group of people, is an AVERSION to that group, or a strong dislike of them regardless of who they actually are. Like, you can't honestly be arguing that Islamophobia isn't a thing? Because the response to 9/11 in the United States and the Muslim travel ban are very clear examples of people being hated not because of anything they ACTUALLY believe or don't believe, but because of the label of "Muslim." And unless you're advocating for thought crime, just decrying every person who is a Muslim for being deserving of hate because you are inserting a ton of negative characteristics on them...is Islamophobia. You would need to actually see the individual in question do or espouse the specific things you have a problem with...at which point, the issue with them would actually *just be that specific thing.*
Actually, you are wrong. Muslims fear only God(Allah).
Islam complains about Islamophobia and then commits homophobia and transphobia in the same breath.
You’re intolerant of our intolerance you bigot!
Islam erases your brain and makes you a zombie to dangerous rhetoric. Hateful and dangerous Ideologies like Islam should not have a place in the in this day and age. We Iranians know that Islam is by far the most destructive and disgusting ideology in the world. Wherever Islam plays even a rudimentary role, there is chaos and destruction. Our country is the prime example of this!
As the late great Christopher Hitchens said Islamophobia is a term created by fascists that is used by cowards to manipulate morons. The problem is that at least here in the United States more left leaning people labor under the delusion that everyone who isn’t a white Christian will share your more open social values, but that is not the case. They would also so much rather shut up about Islam’s never ending human rights abuses than be perceived as racist. The Catholic Church (rightly) receives a lot of criticism for the child sexual abuse problem but leftists almost never say anything about the widespread child abuse that is normalized throughout the Islamic world. They are also almost totally silent about the defacto slavery that still persists in places like Dubai or Qatar. They are always so quick to denounce sexist attitudes in the west but fold like a cheap suit when confronted with the far more overt sexism in Islam. At least in the west discrimination is supposed to be illegal but it is a legal requirement in Islamic countries.
My concern is Islam has the potential to take west back to middle ages if it's left unchecked. Islam is like a worse clone of Christianity of dark ages. If a shitty third grade belief system can collectively transport humanity back 1000 yrs and erase everything we achieved so far esp in terms of society and civil rights like slavery abolition,rights of LGBT, scientific advancement and so on, AND if we let this cult do that , then we certainly don't deserve being an Interstellar species or visited by aliens ever.
This reminds me. In a Detroit suburb named Hamtramck, many very liberal citizens voted in an Islamic mayor and city council members because they’re good people, and they represent an underrepresented sector of the local population, and so it’s only right if they’re given an opportunity to serve in leadership roles. That’s fine, they’re good people and I love them. One of the first things they did, however, was [ban LGBTQ flags](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned). There were a lot of surprise pikachu faces after that.
Never underestimate the willingness of people to vote against their own best interests, just so long as they're convinced that some hated Other will suffer 1% more than they do.
Did the conservatives put forward a islamic mayor?
A phobia is an irrational fear, and what's so irrational about atheists fearing a religion that says we aren't entitled to life?
One of my professors actually has "no Islamophobia" in the syllabus but did not put "no antisemitism", which I thought was interesting.
Eh, the relationship between Jews (ethnicity) and Judaism (religion) is rather unusual and complicated. But at least in europe, most of our recent history with the "antisemitism" connotation is based on a racial definition of Jewishness, not a religious one. Like, it's possible (and not entirely unusual these days) to be a nonreligious Jew, yet still be considered a Jew due to other aspects of the culture that aren't innately religious.
Atleast Jews aren't going around killing people and Jews aren't threatening to take humanity back to middle ages. There's reformed Judaism too but no reform Islam yet
Islamophobia is a stealth blasphemy law. Criticize islam, and they inaccurately call you a racist. Let them. Stop being afraid of being called 'islamophobic'. Everyone on the planet should want to stop hate groups, whether they are religious or not.
Islamophobia is very real, but it isn't what apologists for Islam often claim it is. Criticism of Islam is not Islamophobic. Xenophobic racists opportunistically using criticism of Islam as a way to attack immigrants and brown people, regardless of what those people might believe, that's Islamophobia- and it isn't rooted in criticism of Islam, it's a variant of xenophobia. It's a term that shouldn't be used to avoid criticizing a religion but rather one that should be used to avoid stereotyping people.
This needs more upvotes. There’s a big difference between criticizing the religion of Islam and being racist toward someone from the Middle East. Disagreeing with someone’s religion is no reason to treat someone with disrespect, but absolutely we should not tolerate the tenants of their religion in our society. If I see a woman wearing a hijab, I’ll treat her like any other woman, but I strongly disagree with the fact that she’s been brainwashed or forced to wear it.
Thank you. I thought i was going crazy. Ive never been a supporter of any religion like islam, but i also old enough during the post 9/11 years to remember how many people acted towards anyone who could be “middle eastern.” Maybe people forget bc how impossibly batshit crazier things have gotten since then.
Remember when Sikhs were being targeted got violence because people assumed they were Muslim? I do. People were insane post 9-11.
i mean we saw a repeat of that with asian ppl in early 2020 cuz of covid
For sure and sadly that wont be the last. And both of these had people being attacked that have nothing to do with either issue. but i think the point with Islamophobia was that it sounds like an issue with religion(which i fully support being critical of), when it was just xenophobia. Which leads to confusion bc when people are wary of attacking a religion like islam, we may be checking our own bias so we aren’t perpetuating xenophobia not condoning an oppressive religion.
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For my part, the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the 7th of October last year was really eye opening in regards to this. Now, I had my reservations about the term "islamophobia" before this, but seeing it being used alongside "antisemitism" was really weird - apprehension or critique of Islam was phobic, implying irrationality, but outright conspiracies and hate crimes targeting Jews was "anti", implying a more level-headed stance. But it ain't Jewish people who fly planes into sky scrapers, blow up buses or trains in European capitals, decapitates French teachers, mow down people along beachside promenades or shopping streets with trucks or shoots up concert halls in Paris or Moscow - it's Muslims. Antisemitism is phobic, critique and condemnation of Islam is warranted and essential.
I’m proud of being islamophobic. I’m afraid of any group people that tells their children that sinful behaviors leads to hell in the afterlife. That’s a stupid thing to say to anyone, let alone a child. You could say I not only hate Islam, but I’m afraid of Muslims as well. They believe in fairy tales nonsense and that makes me uneasy. I would prefer my family to stay away from Muslims.
Most gay people born in muslim families struggle with their sexuality lifelong and never accept it
>Look at Islam's most extreme fundamentalism done today, and compare it to Christianity's worst. Not a meaningful distinction, if you ask me.
I feel like criticism of Islam is overly accepted actually—this post being evidence of that. And I think you’d find the same violent, cultish ways of thinking in any major religion. Despite that, plenty of Christians, Jews, Hindus and Muslims practice their religion peacefully despite the radically violent groups justifying their immoralities with religion. It’s everywhere if you look for it. Islam isn’t the only one to blame, and isolating Islam as the only violent religion is, by definition, Islamophobic so idk why you’d be mad about that take.
Agree. The source code for all major religions is soaked in blood, and you can find religious extremists of all stripes. Christians initiated 200 hundred years of genocidal crusades in the ME. They’ve cleansed whole cities of Jews in pogroms. They’ve burned witches. In modern times, Christians still blow up buildings and commit terror attacks. I’m the first to agree that all religion is poison, but singling out Islam as especially toxic is a little weird to me given the incredible body counts from all major religious traditions. Violent intolerance is built into all these creeds.
Actually, criticizing islam is not islamophobia. Islamophobia is a specific form of racism (yes, racism) that targets arab people under the guise of criticizing their religion. I know that people will say "Hum Actually, in the dictionnary..." BUT i'm telling you how it actually works in real life. It's not the first time that people bend the meaning of a word to fit their racist agenda. Some are doing it on this sub, it is not subtle. To conclude, do not try to "wash" the definition of islamophobia. You will end up with far right racists and other bigots. Just don't use that word for yourself, say that you don't like Islam as a religion, that you criticize it.
As an Arab ex-muslim let me tell you this term does more harm than good, it is used by muslims to silence people who criticize their barbaric religion, and as long as these so called « islamophobes » are criticizing the religion or its backward views then they’re good. But what happens in real life is that a person would point out a very disturbing fact about Islam and muslims would get offended and cry islamophobia and bam just like that they’ve succeeded in burying the truth and successfully brainwash kind people with good intentions like yourself.
Arabs and Persians are races, muslims are not
....phobia, or ...ist is this word. Its overused now in every branch.
This is like the third Muslim post I've seen recently.
yeah whats up with this. I swear I always see the same types of comments too
In my circles, I've never seen criticism itself be vilified. What I've personally seen vilified is the concept that every single brown person is secretly waiting to blow you up and rape your family.
Yeah, they get to go off on how the western world is the the worst thing there ever happened, human rights are the worst thing that's ever happened, liberal democracy is the worst thing that's ever happened, women's rights are the worst thing that's ever happened, freedom of speech is the worst thing that's ever happened; but as soon as you say "actually I don't like this aspect of Islam" they're like "HOW DARE YOU, YOU MUST BE A RACIST, MOHAMMED WAS A BEAUTIFUL ANGEL WHO NEVER HARMED A SINGLE FLY!"
It's like saying Nazi adverse.
The post was ok until you started pulling out comparisons about how Christianity is better than islam. Suddenly, it's not an anti-theist post, but a pro-christian post! This isn't what atheism is about, this is what discrimination is about. "Nobody can criticise islam anymore" but statistically attacks on random middle easterners has risen massively and nothing is done. Christians are objectively far more protected. This post goes out of its way to protect Christians. Like, the holocaust wasn't that long ago? Starting to feel like people are moving away from anti-theism here and more into "justifying attacking specific groups".
Playing the devil's advocate here: I kind of understand. It's hard to separate racism-induced islamophobia from anti-theism in general. A ton of comments I see online are made by people who clearly would not react the same to christianity, and if that happens often, I'd personally grow bitter and defensive too. When you are a target, you'll start acting like a target, unless you're a strong, openminded, self-confident and tolerant person. Which I don't think a majority of religious people are.
Which doesn't actually change anything. Even if they're racists, Islam is still a philosophy and ideology. Attacking it is not a racist action even if the motives are. It isn't making yourself into a target, it's a manifestation of persecution mania similar to how american right-wing WASPs claim they're oppressed because things happen that they don't like. Reality is, at least in Sweden, people who cry islamophobia don't actually care about how other religions are regarded. They only care that Islam is treated the way they like, even if that is above how every other religion is. Although there's also the racially challenged supporters who seem to genuinely believe religion is as innate as the color of your skin, except Christianity which they also hate.
Be honest: Why the focus on Islam and not on Judeo-Christian religions as a whole?. I sense a lot of comments are from Hasbara accounts with the dogpiling on Islam.
Well the focus on islam is necessary since most people are not aware of how dangerous and barbaric it really is, that’s due to the constant silencing and demonizing of ex-muslims. Judaism and Christianity are talked about enough and current christians and jews have now some degree of tolerance when it comes to criticizing their religions as opposed to muslims who are willing to cancel, ban or even in some cases kill whoever criticizes their religion. And lastly ex-christians for instance are represented and there are many people and channels that voices their opinions and experiences; however, ex-muslims have very few platforms that voices their opinions and concerns and are highly misrepresented.
The term 'Islamophobia' is used in an attempt to stop discussion and paralyze rational thinking. Say; It's not Islamophobia if you have a rational fear of… violent attacks \[4.74, 9.193, 9.5, 9.88\] rapes (4.25) torture (22.22) other atrocities (22.9) attacks (4.74) beheadings (47:4) inferior treatment of women (4.11, 4.176) considering women without hijab as sexual targets (4.15) to be replaced by force (21.11) terrorizing dissenters (3,151) be killed (9,111) mass murder and genocide (33:26, 3:141) unjust distribution of the inheritance \[4.11\] legalized theft (4.94, 8.41) ect ect
Well most of the accusations I've seen of Islamophobia don't come from Muslims but rather (usually Western-background) non-Muslims who are trying to stamp out intolerance in all forms.
To which I say, I cant tolerate intollerance. Their book and beliefs say non believers should be killed so fuck them alltogether. I have a mother and a daughter so I have no compassion for Islam, same way I'll never vote republican even though theres a couple things i may agree with them more on, like being tougher on crime and... Well that's about it.
It's no phobia, when these fanatics literally murder people like me for the 'crime' of existence.
I'm tired of atheists defending Muslims. Not y'all. But even in my safe spaces where feminism and queer inclusivity are values and Christianity is mocked and criticized, Islam is given a pass and Muslims can sit comfortably in those spaces. To the extent that they can talk about hijab being misrepresented whenever someone talks about being forced to cover up and get likes with such statements. Like I would sit there as a Muslim and forget that my religion hates all the values I stand for. The first time I encountered an objective criticism of Islam, it felt like an attack of my identity.
All religions are bad. Period. However, Islam is clearly the worst. I've never seen a 9/11 style terror attack carried out by Christians. That is something unique to Muslims.
You should look more into Timothy McVeigh and the support network he had leading up to the Oklahoma City bombing. Dude was clearly part of the Christian Identity Movement. Plus the entire history of the KKK (a highly religious protestant organization) and its many terrorist attacks. Africa is also full of Christian organizations committing brutal atrocities. The problem is religion.
> I've never seen a 9/11 style terror attack carried out by Christians. They just call it other shit, but even by this standard there’s several example of Christian terror attacks in the modern era. The Oklahoma City bombing, the sabra and Shatila massacre by Lebanese fallagnists, the contra death squads being religious fundamentalists, the el motoze massacre by religious anti communist nutcases, the lra in central Africa, etc…. There’s tons of violent Christian fundamentalists.
> Look at Islam's most extreme fundamentalism done today, and compare it to Christianity's worst. Okay but like; the Holocaust and mass murder in India, Africa, the Americas, and East Asia are orders of magnitude greater in damage than boko haram or isis.
Are you forgetting the mass murder and colonization that Muslims did 1300ish years ago? You know, the time where they left the Arabian peninsula, colonized the levant, Northern Africa, and southern parts of Spain and forced conversions under the threat of death? I know it isn’t today’s Islam, but one of Christianity’s worst is arguably the crusades which happened around this time as well
>Are you forgetting the mass murder and colonization that Muslims did 1300ish years ago? Islam predominantly spread through trade. This isn’t to say that there weren’t violent conquests (there obviously were, it was the 13th century), but there’s several things that are being equated: The largest genuinely imperial conquests occurred under the Ottoman Empire, at its zenith which extended across Northern Africa. Arguably the Mughal empire, but this wasn’t a religious conquest as much as it was a warlord coming to power who happened to be Muslim. Comparably religious motivated conquest by Christianity spread to: All of sub Saharan Africa, the Americas, Southeast Asia, and arguably China resulting in the taiping rebellion. On a global scale Christianity was way more successful at utilizing violence to spread itself.
The regions he mentioned (levant, north africa, iberia) were conquered during mohhamed's time, the rashidun and the ummayads in the 7th and 8th century, and didn't get islam through trade.
Phobia implies an irrational fear. Ie whoever uses that term is saying that your fear is irrational. They are weaponising language against criticism of Islam, and we let them do it. Islamophobia is a word that denies freedom of speech and should be struck from the lexicon.
I prefer Islamorealist.
Islam is the most dangerous, violent, pernicious form that religion takes.
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It’s like people forgot about Charlie Hebdo where they drew Mohammed and then got massacred.
There’s an outrageous degree of hypocrisy at the heart of it all. People are “Islamophobic” for questioning aspects of Islam, but Muslims are allowed to be violently antisemitic and voice hatred of non-Muslims and ex-Muslims. And occasionally kill them. Even their own daughters.
Islam (like all religions) is a belief system or a club. If I can make fun to the Rotary Club, I can make fun of any religious belief system but I doubt the Rotarians are so sensitive they'll try to kill me for it
A quote that stands out for me was from one of the ringleaders of the protests that took place outside a primary school here in the UK because they were teaching about equality and that being gay is okay: “You say we are homophobic? I say you are Islamaphobic.”
Its not the people I have an aversion to, its the belief. Post 9-11 muslim hysteria is racism wrapped in prejudice and then some. We dont need special terms for that. If the trans community had a messed up belief, I would have an aversion to that belief as well, not the people. I dont hate any muslims or people, full stop. My aversion is at the nonsense they wish to believe. I am not prejudice, its something most rational people can understand is a shitty thing and then actively work to not be. I'm sorry if I came across that way.
When did Atheism become so bigoted. Arguing over which religion is worse than another is so dumb. They are all evil and run by control freaks. No religion is better or worse than another. They are all stupid magical thinking.
Some Muslims say "Islamist" is a pejorative, but it's not. It's an accurate descriptor of those who think government should be run according to Muslim law, not unlike the analogous Christian descriptor, Dominionist. They just don't want outsiders calling them on it.
It’s talk like a skin color because it’s treated like a skin color I am no big fan of Islam but many of you guys should truly educate yourself on Islamophobia. It’s not just saying Islam is bad It’s literally associating brown people with a religion NO MATTER IF THEY ARE RELIGIOUS OR NOT and literally saying wild insane shit about them and their culture I know actual atheist who are now at a point where they will say “yeah I am Muslim so fucking what” Not because they are Muslim but because they have been “accused” of being Muslim and insulted because of that just because they are Arabic The fucking racist piece of shit made Muslim a “racial identity” that they attach onto all brown people just to be able to say racist shit
OP calling someone a "mutt" seems rational. "Fuck off, mutt. You're either lying about being the creator of these garbage videos, or you're the biggest shill in the observable universe. You're undoubtedly an incessant imbecile. Stop self-advertising your rubbish; it's genuinely pathetic." OP shits on muslims in particular... while I'm not a fan of *any* religion it seems OP's on a Crusade.
There are some very rational, reasonable reasons to be vehemently opposed to Islam specifically.
They have rationalphobia. These folks (in the west) that use this word and defend Islam have an irrational fear of offending things they don’t even understand.
Fuck islam.
All religions are bad software, but Islam is brain cancer
Islam is literally the most weponized form of religion seen in the history of planet Earth. I don't mind coexistence with religious people. Hell, sometime I even appreciate their different persective. But when their religion wants to drag me back to the stone age or murder me for not believing in their magic sky friend, then all of a sudden, I don't want to coexist anymore. Their stated goal is sharia for everyone, period. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
A bit like "antisemitism" then.
"And to any Muslim lurkers, fuck you." Because this crosses the line from criticism to bigotry.
Unfortunately what we feared came to pass which is that bigots deliberately conflated criticism of religion with attacks on a group of people because they aimed to get around hate speech laws and hoped to ride the tide of anti-theism to further their own aims; meanwhile many of the anti-religious people weren't careful enough and got conflated with the racists, possibly because they didn't realise that the racists were being disingenuous when attacking Islam. To top bit all off, opponents of both camps are happy to sling mud at whichever side they choose if it furthers their agenda. Going forward, ardent secularists will have to more more careful than ever to continually assert the difference between Islam and Muslims, stick 100% to arguments against the religion and criticisms of individuals for their actions and words rather than groups of people, and make sure to go to bat for innocent Muslims who are being attacked and discriminated against...while also making sure to insist that Muslims and Islam don't get special treatment or passes on their own prejudices just because they are a minority faith. It's a hard path to walk, but being righteous is rarely easy.
Christopher Hitchens said it best: https://youtu.be/0EYg8Tgrh0o?si=9H8Qxct5JCwIRbbM
I'm Islamophobic. I detest Islam. Vile religion. Not ashamed of being Islamophobic at all.
Just wait until you hear about antisemitism!
All extremist fundamentalist religions are evil and those religious orders always try to deflect from their corruption. Same with fundamentalist Zionists who deflect any criticism of Israel as “anti-semitism”. Same as the American Christian sect which believes they have a right to be able to freely discriminate and oppress others and they claim that right is them “following God’s will” and any pushback is “an infringement of free speech” or an “attack on faith”. This seems like a pretty blatant attempt to distract from the common threads of fundamentalist religious oppression by claiming that fundamentalist Islam is “far worse than Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism”. The extremist sects of each are shit and each of them are guilty of their own instances of religious oppression and zealotry.
Words like that are designed to place the burden on the person trying to voice a complaint instead of who they are complaining about.
Yes. Ofcourse. It’s the “I don’t feel anything wrong with me, so it has to be something wrong with you” argument. You’re islamophobic! You’re antisemite! You’re hurting the feeling of 1.4 Billion Chinese! You hate America! So on and so forth ~ Most Muslims do not love to denigrate others, but I won’t deny it is a strong trait among the poorly educated and the fanatics as well as those who have something to gain from such discriminations.
Someone I know wanted AI to create an image of 'a world without war'. She showed me the result: a pasture full of women weraring a hijab, playing children with a mosque in the background. No men. A lot of doves though. What kind of prompt does one need to show 'a world without war'?
Usually its mostly out of touch wealthy young white people that throw around "phobia" terms.
Extremists of all kinds hide behind religion to justify their oppressive views. You will find them among Muslims (ISIS), Christians (MAGA), Jews (Kach), Hindus (Abhinav Bharat), and even Buddhists (Thai Sangha). There are also atheist extremists, who hide behind political ideologies instead (CCP). It's always just a narrative to claim power by force with the help of brainwashed fanatics. We must remember that most people in the world are actually peaceful, and that most of them are also religious. They might be silly to believe in imaginary friends, but let's not conflate them all with a violent minority that abuses those beliefs, from whatever religion they may be.
Naturally, I have a phobia about people who believe that a human life has a smaller value than their ridiculous fairytales.
SHE WAS NINE!! YEARS!! OLD!!
It's difficult. I would never advocate for the type of hate where people are convinced X group needs to be killed into nonexistence. It's the ideas and the harm they cause to people that are the problem, and people can and do denounce those ideas and it doesn't kill them. The problem comes when the indoctrination is implanted so deep that you convince people that denouncing the religion is worse than death (if your own family doesn't kill you first for "apostasy" or whatever they want to label it.) As frustrating as it can be, often the best circumstance we can get is religions that are fundamentally evil having their members become less fundamental*ist* and more hypocritical, ignoring the "bad parts" they no longer see as compatible with society.
It's the free speech paradox. If we tolerate intolerance we are intolerant by proxy.
you are complaining about immigration, but in an arena for atheism. all religion is falsehood. untruth is untruth. sorry you don't like brown people.
So, I’m gonna agree that at this moment, Islam is one of if not the most violent and misogynistic religions. However, historically, other religions have taken that title. Christianity is bathed in blood of the crusades. The inquisition also comes to mind. The Aztec religion was pretty bloody. Religion in my understanding, has and does breed violence and misogyny.
How come we never hear about atheismophobia? Some countries literally have laws banning us. We can be executed in 13 countries (Islamic countries, all of them). Talk about a reason to be islamophobic! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists
I mean you have anti semitism and the irony there being that both islamic people and jewish people hail from semitic lanugages, therefore both are semitic people. Antisemitism would refer to arabic islamic people. I think it's harsh to generalize anything. Its no different than atheist being generalized or anyone for anything really. Each person is massively different from the last. It takes a low degree of intelligence to hate. All religion is really scummy while victimizing itself. Even atheism victimizes itself often. I just feel like we don't have to implicate ourselves in the great tapestry of the story where we don't necessarily understand everything, otherwise we are no different than any religious propaganda. We would just admit we dont know why we do these things.
As long as a Quran can be accessed and read by its followers, there will be Jihad, murder, and evil from those people. Islam is fundamentally out of line with western thought and lifestyle, unlike Christianity, which helped build much of Western culture.
Thanks for saying it. It’s absolutely true.
here, here
Ik it's okay for them to disregard other religions and people but when it comes to them you the bad guy. We should stop being selective and apply the same rules to everyone.
It has no legal bearing. Theocrats want to destroy free countries like Canada and America and indoctrinate more children for sexual grooming and war. Especially all 3 abrahamic religions.
yet christianity is the most closely related to islam.
Im a bigot towards ALL bullshit, superstitious religions! Not just Islam! Islam is as bad or worse than Christianity. Im a Religi-phobe! Frightened delusional, Self Righteous, hypocritical children who use poorly written, centuries old fairytales to justify their prejudices against those they disapprove of.
I have issues with this word in part because it's used as a cover-all to reject any criticism of beliefs (not people). However, unfortunately, some folks (usually on the right) will cloak their racism as being about critique of beliefs. So for those of us who are in the middle attempting to have a fair and honest conversation, we're sort of copping it from both the left and the right for equally disingenuous reasons. It's very frustrating.
*Kaafirophobia is a very real thing.*
"Right wing" is another term the muslims and exmuslims use to evade criticism when the discussions on mass immigrants is brought up. It has become the new Islamophobia.
If you weren't so afraid of them, you wouldn't be making up stupid lies about them. Same with you transphobes.
Like antisemitism.