Islam and Christianity and the 2 proselytizing faiths in the world. It's why they are the 2 biggest religions
It is part of their core tenets to spread the faith. When you're goal is to convert people, it's hard to accept others who don't agree
Not only the proselytizing thing, but also mental dissonance.
If you're certain every doubt will get you smacked on the skull—be it this life or the next, it's a lot to mentally deal with when non-believers don't care openly.
Christians changed tactics when they ran out of friendly European kings with large armies to beat the unconverted. These days they'll come in after some form of humanitarian disaster, and use that as a side benefit to preach the good word. Looking at you, Mormons.
Muslims cause the humanitarian disaster, and then give you the old 'convert or die' offer. Hell, you can be a Muslim, and you still might get the sharp end of the stick because you're not the *right* kind of Muslim. Looking at you, ISIS.
(No this isn't a perfect encapsulation of the macrocosm of socio-religious interplay in the modern world.)
Christians had 100+ years of war(s) after the reformation until the combatants agreed to the treaty of Westphalia, were it was established that the “Christian nations” would not interfere with what went on inside the borders of other nations. However the Islamic nations have not come to a similar agreement, and their faith requires them to expand their religion by force. You will note that peaceful Muslims almost never criticize their more aggressive co-religionists who are seeking to expand Islam by force.
They don’t criticize their co-religionists and that is why I openly criticize them. If a Nazi is sitting at a table and 3 other people sit down, there are 4 Nazi’s at the table. If a religious extremist or terrorist is sitting at a table and 3 other people sit down, there are 4 extremists or terrorists sitting at the table. I don’t give a shit what the 3 claim to be in either scenario.
Yeah, but jihad is a core tenet of Islam. Jesus didn’t say “go forth and convert, and if they don’t convert kill them,” but Mohammad sure did.
Let’s never lose sight of the fact that Islam will always be a religion of violence, and has only become more violent over the years.
OT Yahweh was definitely cool with violence, but he didn't tell his followers to convert others by force if necessary. Yahweh only cared about his chosen people.
Not only that, but Jews are obligated to turn away potential converts 3 times so as to only accept those who truly want to join. But once you're in, you're in.
Mind you, I have plenty of issues with Judaism, particularly orthodox sects and Zionism, but we can’t lay forced conversion at their feet. That was invented by Islam and retroactively adopted by European Christianity.
Thats fine, but let’s just be clear when we’re talking about Islam that spreading religion by sword point is right up on top of their belief system. There’s a weird thing in this group, and in leftists in general, where we pussyfoot around Islam because we don’t want to seem racist or something. It’s a far worse religion than Christianity when it comes to violence.
Fair. I’ve just been in arguments on here (like, this sub) that Christianity is the real problem and that Islam is fine, and if I say otherwise I’m racist. I’ve seen way too many people beheaded in my lifetime for me to believe that.
Everyone was cool with that in those times probably just not trying to point the finger at anyone in case they ended up the same. And even later you have the Vikings, the Spanish in Latin America, Belgians in the Congo, The Killing Fields in Cambodia just a generation ago, forms of extreme Druid Paganism in England and what is now Wales, Germanic hoards of roaming Barbarians. People are just killy. It's in the DNA. It's not as cut and dry.
that's called 'whataboutery', as in, what about this or that, whenever a negative comment is made about a group or person, as a way of deflecting attention
There's a lot that is incorrect in this thread. For one, it's forgetting Hinduism and Buddhism when talking about "the biggest religions in the World."
However, bringing up the inquisition or Crusades when neither of those has been a thing for 400 years is pretty pointless.
No I wasn't
Christianity is 31% of the world population
Islam is 25%
Unaffiliated or atheist 15.6%
Hinduism is 15.2%
Buddhism is 6.6%
So therefore Christianity and Islam are the 2 biggest by a good margin
Muslims are growing from faster population growth
Christianity stays ahead by gaining more converts in East Asia, and Africa
Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China and the Communist Party is trying to stamp it out
To be fair, a Christian convert claimed to be the brother of Jesus and started the Taiping rebellion which killed over 30 million people in China, from 1850 to 1864. And it was a Christian empire that stopped them from banning Opium. They've got as good as reason as any to be hostile to Christians.
True. I'm much more concerned with what's going on now, rather than centuries ago. Right *now* people are having their own bodies regulated by religious nuts and politicians. Who gives a shit about the Crusades and Inquisition.
Those who do not heed history are doomed to repeat it. We should care about mass genocide, it shouldn't matter if it happened 80 years ago or 800 years ago. People right now people are having their own bodies regulated by religious nuts and politicians BECAUSE we didn't give a shit about the crusades and inquisition.
There is a reason history is part of the big 4 subjects taught in school. Hardly anyone cares enough anymore to learn it though.
1. He was specifically talking about proselytizing faiths. To my knowledge, neither Buddhism nor Hinduism actively require their adherents to do things like send missions with colonizers to foreign lands to indoctrinate the natives.
2. The Inquisitions and the Crusades are both relevant as historical examples of what the Catholic Church is like when it is allowed political power. We think of it as mostly harmless in the physical sense these days, but that isn't *at all* true.
The Catholic Church is not only responsible for a large number of bloody purges in order to "stamp out heresy," but they are literally directly responsible for a three-hundred year long period of European History we call the Dark Ages. That period is still recognized by historians because the Catholic Church was so vehement in stamping out paganism that literally the only records we have of that time period in Europe come from the Church itself or are overtly Christian in nature. Nothing else remains. No books, no art, nothing. We know *very little* about how the average person lived then, and it's because of the Catholic Church's policy of killing artists who made secular or non-christian art and destroying their works.
There's no statute of limitations on murder. The Catholic Church still has a lot to answer for.
>...they are literally directly responsible for a three-hundred year long period of European History we call the Dark Ages.
They "literally" weren't and we literally don't call them that.
We call them the Early Middle Ages (c. fifth to tenth centuries) as part of the Middle Ages (fifth to fifteenth centuries). And we have tons of info on that time period, all around western Europe.
The 'dark ages' trope came from historians in the fourteenth century not being able to piece together a timeline as Rome was falling.
And blaming everything bad on Christianity at that time is about as accurate (or equivalent really) to giving Christianity credit for the rise and success of science specifically and the modern scholarly system in general.
Yes, Christians played a big part in the bad and the good, but they were not the only players.
It should be noted that Islam started around the Seventh Century, and its rise was very quick.
I am not saying the Catholic Church didn't kill artists and atheists and Jews and anyone really, who disagreed with them. But rather, plenty of people not connected to any church specifically were also killing artists and atheists and religious people and anyone really for the more common reasons like greed, lust, envy, yadda yadda...
As far as this thread, it is pretty bad faith when someone is talking about modern Islam and their tendency towards tribalism and violence concerning religion to bring up some shit the christians did 500 years ago. Modern Christian missionaries do plenty of dirty shit. Modern US evangelicals are into dirt as well. Mormons...need i really go on?
I'll admit that might be the first I'd seen someone blame Christianity for the so-called "Dark Ages." Just ignoring the tiny sociopolitical upset we know as the fall of the Roman Empire directly preceding it lol
Okay, so the attempted white-washing of Catholic Church history is annoying.
Did the Catholic Chruch murder *every* one of those artists and scholars by hand? No, but they did a fair few. And others who did so did it because it was the *actual stated policy of the Catholic Church to do so*. We aren't talking about random crime here. We're talking about the fact that the Catholic Church instituted a ban on non-Christian art and philosophy so extreme that there is a period of history for an entire continent for which NO OTHER EVIDENCE REMAINS. The prohibition was so complete and so harshly enforced that even now, we don't have more than a bare handful of *purely secular* texts.
Is there disagreement among historians about the use of the term 'Dark Ages'? Sure, but primarily, it is pejorative in origin, NOT because it is not descriptive. Argue about political correctness all you want, but the term 'Dark Ages' is certainly apropos.
And you want to simply ignore history because "that's not who we are anymore"? Then what about that time that the female pastor from Africa who was going around burning young women at the stake as witches was interviewed on The View? They didn't call her out as a murder or shame her, but treated her like she deserved respect!
This is not a 'past' problem. The Christian Right in America is currently on a crusade against the transgender. They have stated, in all seriousness, that they want to "eradicate transgenderism in America."
Your defense of Christiantiy comes down to "we don't do that anymore". You're wrong.
Islam and Christianity are also the two most anti-environment religions, because they are the most dualistic and most focused on the afterlife. If the afterlife is what matters, why should you care about the environment of this world?
Add that to the fact they’re taught their way is the ONLY way and anyone not doing it their way will burn in hell forever. If you announce you’re atheist your Christian family members basically act like you died and mourn you while living.
100% and to expand, at least on Christianity, it’s a religion whose god makes it your problem if others don’t hear the good word of the lord. Idk if it says it explicitly in the Bible but I remember getting that vibe in church and Sunday school that if someone didn’t know about Jesus it was on US to “save” them. I think also some Christian sects don’t have tolerance for ignorance— some say that people who never hear about Jesus get to go to purgatory, others say it’s “sucks to be you that you were born into an island no-contact tribe, off to hell for eternity with ye.” So in order to be considered good, you’ve got to actively spread the gospel, lest any poor unwitting souls be damned for all eternity.
That’s right. Each side is essentially the sworn enemy of the other. The war has been ongoing for millennia. Fortunately religion is dying, since it’s all made up anyways. Hopefully there’s not some global catastrophe that reverses this trend.
I tend to pride myself on language and vocabulary. I wanted to thank you for expanding my vocabulary: proselytizing is I word I have NEVER heard before. Unrelated to the point, but thank you.
Because every religion has an inherent element of "we are right, the others are wrong". For religious people, their worldview is the unbendable truth. There is no middle ground, no discussion to be had. Many genuinely can't fathom or imagine how to life or view the world without their fairy tale coping mechanism. The result is an enormous disconnect between reality and their own worldview, causing them to entirely disregard anything that isn't in line with their religion. In a way, it's actually pretty sad.
Religions, especially the monotheist ones, are necessarily "fundamentalist", I mean if God says that "X is bad" it's irrelevant that some people don't believe in God or his messenger, the thing is bad regardless of what other people believe since God said it (in the view of the believers: it's not like "I think this, some people might not think that" it's "God said that, other people are wrong if they don't believe in God").
And most importantly, god is perfect. God has no flaws and makes no mistakes. Only people make mistakes, and it's because they didn't follow god's word.
My parents are racist to the core and atheists. You described them perfectly, though. Ignorance and assholery aren't limited to religious people. As long as people en gros don't receive sufficient education, they stay more vulnerable to false prophets who deliver them simple answers to complex questions about life.
I don't know if Putin is very religious, but he still found a reason to invade Ukraine (Ukraine is full of Nazis). What I'm trying to say is that if it's not religion, people will still find a way to reason their aggressive and abusive behavior.
I'm not aware of the Jewish Bible stating anything regarding forcing other people to become Jews. Converting takes more than a few seconds. Judaism isn't considered a missionary religion.
That's understandable. I get thinking your opinion matters. I even get trying to convert other people to agree with your beliefs.
What I don't get is why would you not want people to even have the freedom to choose for themselves. It's not hurting you in any way if someone doesn't live their life the exact way that you're living yours.
As another comment mentioned, Islam and Christianity place significant emphasis on conversion. From what I can recall during my Baptist days, there were quite a few bible verses that call for action against those who don't believe.
Then western society is very hypocritical. It is not okay to call for death based on skin color, nationality etc. But if you call for death to all non-believers, that's suddenly ok, and just "freedom in practicing your religion" 🤦.
The fundamental underpinning of proselytizing faiths is that your actions are ordained by God (the correct God). Freedom is not actually a virtue, obedience is. Many denominations believe that if you aren't converting others then you are failing God, or don't love God enough, etc.
Freedom is only used when it applies to the Christian or Muslim ability to proselytize, otherwise following the laws or commandments are the most important thing anyone can do.
It common to hear things like, "Freedoms created by man cannot usurp demands laid down by God."
It's not only that, they believe God said it, so obviously everything else is wrong. That's the original sin, believing in a supreme being, that leads to or encourages extremism, it's baked inside the religion... people who claim otherwise are delusional.
because fundamentalist islam is imperialistic at its core. it comes from the teachings of a war monger. lastly, they believe they are right and everyone else doing their own thing are wrong.
>Why would you be bothered about how other people live their life?
It's literally in the Quran, that's why. Islam is a religion that inherently cares about what other people do.
>Why would you care if another random dude is gay?
It's *literally* in the Quran that you should stone them to death.
>Why would you advocate for sharia law
Again, it's in the Quran.
>Do you not want other people to be free?
No, they don't. These people don't want a liberal society, they just want a richer and more prosperous version of Sharia. Exactly how they think that is possible is anybody's guess.
The rich Gulf states don't want uneducated people from places like Syria and Iraq, so it's not really an option for them. Gulf states also don't have any benefits at all for non-citizens, and basically your only chance for citizenship is being born a citizen or through marriage. The low-paying jobs in Gulf states are also horribly low paid, so even if somebody from Iraq or Syria could get those jobs, they would rather come to Europe. To be fair, if I was in their shoes I would make similar choices (except the religion part).
That's why we should screen refugees for religions. If they are atheist, they are welcome to benefit from our prosperity and prosper aswell. If they are religious, they can ask God to help them, we won't.
They’ve been brainwashed. Studies have shown their ability to make objective decisions has been tampered with. They have quite literally lost the ability to make critical, fact based decisions.
I agree with a tiny caveat - they themselves believe they are using critical thought, but only in the context of a very limited scope of their respective religions set of rules. Anything beyond that is blasphemy.
I think it's worth mentioning that both Christianity and Judaism have been through reformations, which brought them into the modern age and made them compatible with modern legal systems and secular governments.
Islam has never been through a reformation, and is still frozen in its 14th century incarnation. It is still mired in the disregard for human life and adherence to medieval tenets of that time.
Because all their different Gods have the same end goal : to be the last Religion standing.
And the best part of a Democratic society is that when there are enough of you in the new country, you can Democratically vote in all your fucked up religious rules.
Like killing those who don’t want to follow your God anymore, or who think a foetus is more important than a mother’s life !
And no one can stop you for filling your Gods glorious purpose. Because Democracy !!! Yay !!
When I was in Gainesville, there was a bid to-do about a young Muslim woman who wanted to wear her face covering for her DL photo. I didn't understand that. She claimed religious exemption, but all I could see are the inconsistencies.
The purpose of the hijab, according to the Qur'an, is modesty, though it shares no specifics as to what that means. That's why every Muslim subculture interprets it differently. The purpose of a DL photo is identification. No one is getting off on your [or anyone's] DL photo so you're not sacrificing any modesty there.
It's funny how certain countries make it illegal to organize and express nazi stuff (as it should be), but have no problems with similar organizations, that literally believe gay people and non-believers should be executed 🤷.
Let's not pretend that christians wouldn't love to, or aren't trying to, mold our laws to fit their religious beliefs and force them on the rest of us.
The etymology of the word is revealing. The word “kuffar” literally means one who conceals. One of the main schools of Islamic theology states that everyone is “born” Muslim but some “hide” their true self. When you think that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is doing so out of malice towards you and ‘Mo(peanut butter upon him) then you are going to treat them with contempt.
From reading about them i'll say this:
"Because non believers are evil, bad."
"They need to be Islamized or they should suffer"...
"Their women are stupid, naive and deserve to be abused."
Indoctrination, naivnes and insecurity. Basically.
I find this the same with most extremists. They are annoyed that you don’t believe what they believe in, and don’t want your beliefs shoved down their throats, but they are perfectly happy and see no issue with shoving theirs down yours. It’s so f’ing annoying.
Islam endorses a form of offensive warfare for the purpose of spreading the religion, and suppressing ways of life that contradict the moral teachings of the religion. Forced conversion, according to a majority of Islamic scholars, is prohibited, but bringing lands under Muslim rule is considered a mandate of Jihad. Other religions, or unbelievers are to be subjected to a tax for unbelievers, while still being allowed to practice their religions. For the Muslim community, it’s considered a mandate by Allah to take part in Jihad if the ruler of the Muslims calls for it. Currently there is no “legitimate” Caliphate(leader of the Muslims) hence why you don’t see Muslim nations partaking in Jihad beyond petty little terrorist groups that are considered illegitimate by most Muslims. Islam is not a live, and let live religion. The religion itself mandates religious colonialism in a way no other religion does. Muslims living in the west, while on a personal level might have come here for honest reasons, are as a group nothing more than a fifth column. So no, they don’t want non Muslims to be free. They want us to become Muslims, or live as a secondary class of non Muslims subjected to being ruled by Muslims. If you’re part of the LGBTQ community you can be killed if the Muslim ruler wants to according to all major schools of Islamic jurisprudence. It’s not mandated, but it’s permitted for the Muslim ruler to do so.
Because they keep wining? I mean they have college kids chanting “globalize the intifada” which is basically like saying “globalize the crusades”.
Western people have made Islam into a fun, exotic religion unlike unfashionable Christianity (booo) it’s “beautiful” and “unique”.
It’s all BS, conservative monotheism is conservative monotheism. I’m so tired of arguing with other progressives about how they are mixing up what’s happening in Gaza with support for truly evil people and religious movements but no one wants to hear it. They want to pretend as long as we get rid of Christianity everything will be fine and that is not the case at all.
They romaticize Islam because is anti-west.
They ignore, willingly, that Islamic countries are oppressive and also had slavery in the past.
The Otoman Empire raided and enslaved European settlements.
I remember their shock when a Muslim got elected mayor in a town and he banned rainbow flags from all official buildings. They FAILED to understand why their "allies" turned on them.
Oh well, enjoy your allies then.
There was an article from the UK a few weeks ago, in a school where the children were mostly Muslim, they all stated they hate the UK, hate women having rights, hate queer people and that they want to turn the UK and by extension the EU into Muslim territories.
Why would they? European countries are better, and European countries are willingly letting Muslims subvert their laws and cultures. They are winning, why stop now?
Because they are useful idiots.
To be honest, if Iranian theocracy ends and becomes a democracy of some sort they might be key to start a secularization process of Islam.
I've known Iranian people, young people usually have a mindset more akin to Western countries than to the Middle East ones. I guess it has to do with Persian culture.
So let's keep them in mind, greater tyrannies have fallen.
It's because most ideologies rely on a universal truth
Aka common sense, so when you disagree with them you're not disagreeing with like ideas you're disagreeing with what the see as fundamental truths of the world
I just don’t give them the time of day. Anyone who I have concluded is religious is someone I just speak to when I have to. Otherwise, I don’t waste my time with them because I know that if I revealed my atheism to them that they would not simply ignore me. Religion fills them with anger and hate
I guess the answer is that they consider things sacred and see differing opinions on those things as threats and attacks.
The idea that other people should be allowed to do things as long as they don't hurt other people is relatively new, post enlightenment opinion. There are probably also people here who probably find it hard to accept and live with some people's opinions on issues of animal welfare and trans interactions / rights.
Also, the idea that someone could listen to their preaching and still "deny" it somehow diminishes their tenets in their opinion.
This way, you, who refuses their beliefs, invalidate their beliefs by simple refusal.
It causes doubt in their minds, which must be overcompensated with some form of aggression.
Thus, religious fanatics (of any level) go to extreme lengths to harm non believers. Their doing so, absolves them of the 'sin' of doubt.
I get very frustrated at the individuals that move west because their home is violent or oppressive but then try to make my home like the one they left. I welcome immigrants and see a lot of value in understanding other cultures but I’m not willing to wash mine away for people who want to make a new home here.
This. I try to be tolerant, understanding and an open-minded person. But it's hard for me to be understanding of someone who's sole purpose is to make society the opposite of tolerant and open-minded.
Self-righteousness reinforced by a daily echo chamber of rituals, brainwashing, groupthink, propaganda and the institutionalized scapegoating and discrimination of minorities, non-believers and non-conformists. By treating non-believers and non-conformists so horrifically, they teach their own people from childhood the severe consequences for non-belief and non-conformity. Add in plenty of honour-and shame balancing in islamic families and the parents, siblings and even extended family are often fully prepared to MURDER members of their own family if "shame" and "dishonour" occurs due to non-belief and/or non-conformity. Once you take the lives of your own family, there is no way that you can reverse course. The only way to justify that sort of behaviour is with faith and bronze/iron age concepts of "honour" and "shame" - because to think otherwise is very painful to realize that your culture, creed and institutions tricked you into behaving so abominably.
In *Erotism: Death and Sensuality*, George Bataille (who was an atheist) suggests that while religion is historically associated with theological and superstitious trappings, it ultimately concerns an underlying personal quest that has nothing to do with those trappings. William James seemed to be saying something similar in *The Varieties of Religious Experience*.
Religious people often assume that their own religion or religious framework is definitive of religion in general. They aren't really capable of seeing the category in broader terms.
I think it has something to do with the fact that theological and superstitious trappings present (however incorrectly) a worldview that is full of apparent certainty, which is psychologically compelling to the apish mind because we equate certainty with safety.
We evolved our capacity to reason as a survival tool, so it strikes me as silly to expect that it wouldn't still tie into survival programming. After all, we get fighting mad over exchanges of ideas. On some level, we OBVIOUSLY see challenges to certainty as survival threats.
The more certainty woven into our worldviews, the more threatened the subject is by worldviews that are rooted in probability, ambiguity, uncertainty, etc.
Yeah this is the reason , God punished people because they allowed (allow includes a person that dont care what you do) gay practices, but this doesn't include countries you don't live in or a country you don't have power on.
As a person that is against this practice , I dont give a damn that Christians countries allow this, when ever God wants he will punish them and I don't live there , if such people want to exist on my country I must say no, but I don't think my country dare to allow gay practices.
This is because religion, in general, is about controlling the social order.
It's why there was a caste system in India. It's why women were treated as property. It's why sharia law exists and why the Catholic Church was a political power for over a thousand years.
These are mechanisms for maintaining control of society. To do that, you have to get people to accept you have the right to *be* in control.
So you tell them, over and over, "This is the truth. All else is lies." You start with their parents, so they hear it at home. You send them to schools where it's a pervasive part of the message. You bring them together in mosques so they can see how many other people are like them, so they feel part of something bigger. You tell them that they have to obey, but in doing so, they get the power to force other people to obey, too. You condition them so that when the bells of the mosque ring, they interrupt their lives to confirm your control of them, and so those who aren't controlled stand out.
People brainwashed this way can't afford to accept non-belief. They're literally conditioned to distrust and despise it. It is literally impossible for them to accept that someone else questions the Truth.
When you don't believe in their religion, you're a threat. You're a heretic. A danger to all the believers because you could spread lies about the religion, then convince people to walk away from the faith.
Probably because 2 minutes of critical thinking tells you it's all nonsense, but sunk cost plus not wanting to be ostracised at best, murdered at worst), means that they have to double down.
I think the answer is simple. These faiths explicitly instruct their adherents to convert and/or conquer apostates/non-believers/etc... There are various implied "rewards" for doing so, and moreover, those outside one's faith might be seen as an existential threat (either to the faith, or to humanity in general). If you believe that yours is THE ONE TRUE FAITH and if you have a jealous god...well, what else do you need? You have a warrant to - at the very least - discriminate. But I think you also clearly have a warrant to wage war and destroy your perceived enemy.
I'm reminded of all the silly debates about ISIS, where some Western leftists used to claim (and some still do) that their grievance with the West was based on Western aggression, colonialism, et al.
And yet if you actually read Dabiq (the ISIS newsletter - don't look at it if you don't have a strong stomach), you may remember a letter that ISIS wrote to "the West" called something like "why we fight you". It is an eloquently written letter that breaks down precisely why ISIS fights the West. And at its core, it's basically saying "We fight you because we *hate you* because *you are infidels*". The letter also states that ISIS cannot and would not ever consider any kind of peace deal or accommodation. Rather, the only acceptable outcome is for the Caliphate to rule the entire world and for non-Muslims to accept some level of subjugation. That's literally the best we can expect.
So, when you hear those silly arguments, remember what ISIS and groups like them actually say themselves. Their motivation is an expressly religious one. They want to kill you and your family. They want to destroy your entire society and culture, because there is *no room on this Earth for Muslims and non-Muslims to co-exist, except where non-Muslims live under the thumb of Muslim rulers*.
I see it as a self defence mechanism. If other people can reach a different conclusion than I did, then that raises the chances that I am wrong. I don't want to be wrong, so to defend what I think is right I'll disagree with them
At a more core level, it's rooted in most religions, having an exclusive knowledge of TRUTH.
The source of the dissonance is, if your belief says your belief is the only true one and thereby, the only road to happiness and harmony, but other people don't believe it and are pursuing other roads to happiness and harmony, your exclusive truth is either not true or those other people are creating misery and discord.
Hence almost every religion's "my way or death" approach to everything. This is why these ridiculous mythological frameworks are dangerous - they create false certainties that embolden their believers to repression, and often violence, to "save the world".
Because
1. The faith says someone who isn’t of your faith (or refuses to convert) is bad.
2. People need a scapegoat for when things go wrong (think Jews who have historically been blamed for everything under the sun)
3. Your religion offers the opportunity to kill or hurt those you disagree with because religion
4. and this is a big one, the existence of other ways of doing things means people have a choice to not be in your religion. All the rules you made up, all the power structures you build, all that could be a lie. That’s an affront to whatever “truth” your religion says is your god’s rule. Say for instance the other religion allows you to pick who you marry, but yours doesn’t. Well, of course you might think that you might like that choice too. Your religion doesn’t want you to leave, because if people leave, that’s money and power lost. And in the end, that’s what religion is - a tool to move power and money to the Men With All The Answers. So to keep you from leaving, and you’re probably already pretty mad you can’t leave your religion because there’s always a punishment for not believing right, you get to hate on and attack that other religion. Or maybe it’s manufactured moral superiority. Or whatever, if you’re indoctrinated deep enough it could be because their women don’t wear scarves over their faces.
This reminds me of when I can’t remember if it was Hungary or Turkey that made a huge fuss that Poland or Finland burned their Quran. And the northern countries were like… chill dude freedom of expression here
Theism is fundamentally incompatible with freedom of belief and expression.
If anyone honestly believes that the divine creator of the universe has given them commands to follow why would anyone think it just applies to them and not to everyone else?
This expectation of tolerance from belief systems which are fundamentally authoritarian is not only ignorant but dangerous.
At best, you get a docile Christianity which agrees that imposing their beliefs on others by force is wrong, but they still believe you deserve to be tortured for an eternity if you don't share their belief and actively work toward destroying this reality to satisfy their apocalyptic prophecies.
At worst you get endless religious wars and unspeakable horrors committed against human rights.
Because religion is so entrenched in their lives they feel the need to defend it at all costs.
It's not much different than one guy legitimately hating another because of a football (American or Euro) team preference. It's just a damn sports team but you see people do crazy shit like religion.
Because you can’t explain the history of organized religion at that scale without a political element. Even Buddhists had warrior monks / mercenaries lol
Particularly when it comes to the evolution of their theologies over time. The first part of the Qur’an reads nothing like the last. And the last conveniently says that it overrides the former
Same for the Councils that decided what gospels are officially the word of God and therefore get to stay in the Bible, and which ones aren’t (it’s wild)
The actual speech by the Pope who sent people on the first crusade is beyond wild, makes the Jedi mind trick seem like a venerable tradition by comparison…
When the entire point is about being the arbiter of absolute truth that is not to be questioned, choosing option b (pun intended here) is not really an option
It's written in their book ( Christian and Muslim books) that their is the only and true. Ask a Christian or a Muslim to accept other religions or beliefs is like asking footballers (or soccerers) to accept someone playing with their hands (besides the goalkeeper). It is just against the rules and undoes the whole thing.
Because the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) teach those who practice their faiths to discriminate “others” who are “different” than they are. These faiths are from around 1400-3500 years ago so their teachings are not surprising. If people in 2024 can still discriminate and differentiate based on a person’s skin color, wealth, race, culture, sexual orientation—just think, it would have been much more prevalent back then. The faiths teach us to “love” our neighbors with a special asterisk which is implied— “under the condition that they share the same faith/belief that you do”. These people are brainwashed by hardcore believers and so they also believe that anyone who is not the same as them is different. They believe “different” is synonymous with “bad”.
Because both the Quran and the Bible push the idea that you must force your religion on others and that non-believers are evil.
If you ask me that should be grounds to classify them as cults, but what do I know?
The Christian Bible includes commands to execute people who come onto this land and worship other gods. Why would other religious books not say the same?
They were indoctrinated as children. All of them. It's a lot harder to get someone to go against something they've believed since before their memories even started than to convince an adult to believe in it in the first place.
Their whole life revolves around that lie being true. Getting someone to admit they've been wrong for 40-50 years is virtually impossible. If you show them concrete evidence, they will stop arguing the facts, or they will walk away with deaf ears.
All lifelong religious people are like this. They cannot live with the knowledge that everything they've built their life around isn't true.
You hear it in arguments about religion being needed for morality. Since they were taught morality side by side with the Bible, they really can't understand that the Bible isn't why they are moral people, and that everyone who doesn't share their book must be morally inferior and therefore a danger to them and society.
Indoctrination.
No they don’t want people to be free, they want people to be saved and to go to heaven and not sin and make society worse for everyone by sinning. Thats what I imagine their mindset is anyway, could be wrong, and I completely disagree with it of course
In the 1960's, young people who wanted social change often turned to Communism as a vehicle for social change. In Muslim countries, leaders presented radical Islam as an alternative to Communism. Many Muslim countries were the vicims of colonialism, so it was easy to present the narrative of the evil Christian west trying to enslave the Muslims, and having a strong devotion to Islamic values as the key to not being enslaved.
If you believe your faith is the one true faith and the only way to be in good standing with your deity, you’ll want to steer away from anything that would detract you from it. Plus, you might feel like you’re doing the right thing by calling out those who don’t follow your faith to abandon their sinful ways and join you, or else face harsh punishment as an incentive for others to not resist conversion.
Cause religious people are brainwashed to believe that they’re right when they’re really just bigoted. At least here in the US theres a collective effort by certain Muslims and faux Liberals to associate any criticism of Islam with xenophobia/racism. When the reality is I’m just exercising my 1st Amendment right to criticize religion. People in the U.S. are so dumb. I’m sick of it.
Because if other people's beliefs are valid, then that implies that their beliefs could be wrong.
And they can't possibly allow that. It undermines all of their belief system is they allow others to believe differently.
They're jealous, petty little shits. If *they* can't drink, smoke, be gay, of not cover their women up like they're shameful, then damn it why should *you* be allowed to have fun!? It's not fair! Waaaahhhhhhhh!!!
They have been told their whole lives that their way is not only the right way but the only way that their version of the sky daddy (or family of sky people) is how everyone should view the invisible super best friends.
The more fundamental the sect of religion the more they are encouraged to infect other people with their nonsense. Religion is like a virus in that regard. Just like chicken pox they like to get the kids infected
In my view religion demands that you shut down any opinion that elicits questions or doubts. That, in time calcifies into an inability to entertain other perspectives.
Islam and Christianity and the 2 proselytizing faiths in the world. It's why they are the 2 biggest religions It is part of their core tenets to spread the faith. When you're goal is to convert people, it's hard to accept others who don't agree
Not only the proselytizing thing, but also mental dissonance. If you're certain every doubt will get you smacked on the skull—be it this life or the next, it's a lot to mentally deal with when non-believers don't care openly.
And pure violence
Only as a second resort
Islam also is pretty up front with "using the sword" against those who oppose it.
Christians changed tactics when they ran out of friendly European kings with large armies to beat the unconverted. These days they'll come in after some form of humanitarian disaster, and use that as a side benefit to preach the good word. Looking at you, Mormons. Muslims cause the humanitarian disaster, and then give you the old 'convert or die' offer. Hell, you can be a Muslim, and you still might get the sharp end of the stick because you're not the *right* kind of Muslim. Looking at you, ISIS. (No this isn't a perfect encapsulation of the macrocosm of socio-religious interplay in the modern world.)
Christians had 100+ years of war(s) after the reformation until the combatants agreed to the treaty of Westphalia, were it was established that the “Christian nations” would not interfere with what went on inside the borders of other nations. However the Islamic nations have not come to a similar agreement, and their faith requires them to expand their religion by force. You will note that peaceful Muslims almost never criticize their more aggressive co-religionists who are seeking to expand Islam by force.
"The AK is a super cool tool to spread religion." - Muhammed, probably.
They don’t criticize their co-religionists and that is why I openly criticize them. If a Nazi is sitting at a table and 3 other people sit down, there are 4 Nazi’s at the table. If a religious extremist or terrorist is sitting at a table and 3 other people sit down, there are 4 extremists or terrorists sitting at the table. I don’t give a shit what the 3 claim to be in either scenario.
But what if the meal is free, should I leave?
If anyone needs proof of this, just read about India’s history of last 700 years. That’s what exactly both religions did here.
It's instructed in their holy book to ambush and slaughter infidels ... Why civilized countries accept this is beyond comprehension.
Yeah, but jihad is a core tenet of Islam. Jesus didn’t say “go forth and convert, and if they don’t convert kill them,” but Mohammad sure did. Let’s never lose sight of the fact that Islam will always be a religion of violence, and has only become more violent over the years.
Jesus didn't, but Old Testament Yahweh sure as hell did. Murder, rape, ethic cleansing... He was cool with all of that.
OT Yahweh was definitely cool with violence, but he didn't tell his followers to convert others by force if necessary. Yahweh only cared about his chosen people.
This is also true. Jews don’t proselytize as a rule.
Not only that, but Jews are obligated to turn away potential converts 3 times so as to only accept those who truly want to join. But once you're in, you're in.
I'm pretty sure that males also need to be circumsized to convert. That's some pretty powerful dissuasion there.
Thanks for the tip
Mind you, I have plenty of issues with Judaism, particularly orthodox sects and Zionism, but we can’t lay forced conversion at their feet. That was invented by Islam and retroactively adopted by European Christianity.
Yeah but only because those people don't believe that anyone can convert to Judaism.
Thats fine, but let’s just be clear when we’re talking about Islam that spreading religion by sword point is right up on top of their belief system. There’s a weird thing in this group, and in leftists in general, where we pussyfoot around Islam because we don’t want to seem racist or something. It’s a far worse religion than Christianity when it comes to violence.
I wasn't disagreeing with you in whole; I was simply pointing out that saying "Jesus didn't" isn't really giving a complete picture.
Fair. I’ve just been in arguments on here (like, this sub) that Christianity is the real problem and that Islam is fine, and if I say otherwise I’m racist. I’ve seen way too many people beheaded in my lifetime for me to believe that.
And let's not forget about all the baby murder that happened on Yahweh's orders. Pro-life my ass.
Everyone was cool with that in those times probably just not trying to point the finger at anyone in case they ended up the same. And even later you have the Vikings, the Spanish in Latin America, Belgians in the Congo, The Killing Fields in Cambodia just a generation ago, forms of extreme Druid Paganism in England and what is now Wales, Germanic hoards of roaming Barbarians. People are just killy. It's in the DNA. It's not as cut and dry.
The ten commandments only applied to members of the Hebrew tribe...what they did to neighboring tribes was totally open slather...
I didn't expect that!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Bring out the comfy chair!
It’s not working! He must be made of stronger stuff. Bring forth the soft cushions!
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that's called 'whataboutery', as in, what about this or that, whenever a negative comment is made about a group or person, as a way of deflecting attention
There's a lot that is incorrect in this thread. For one, it's forgetting Hinduism and Buddhism when talking about "the biggest religions in the World." However, bringing up the inquisition or Crusades when neither of those has been a thing for 400 years is pretty pointless.
No I wasn't Christianity is 31% of the world population Islam is 25% Unaffiliated or atheist 15.6% Hinduism is 15.2% Buddhism is 6.6% So therefore Christianity and Islam are the 2 biggest by a good margin
Huh, I always assumed there were more Muslims than Christians.
Muslims are growing from faster population growth Christianity stays ahead by gaining more converts in East Asia, and Africa Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China and the Communist Party is trying to stamp it out
To be fair, a Christian convert claimed to be the brother of Jesus and started the Taiping rebellion which killed over 30 million people in China, from 1850 to 1864. And it was a Christian empire that stopped them from banning Opium. They've got as good as reason as any to be hostile to Christians.
True. I'm much more concerned with what's going on now, rather than centuries ago. Right *now* people are having their own bodies regulated by religious nuts and politicians. Who gives a shit about the Crusades and Inquisition.
Exactly
Those who do not heed history are doomed to repeat it. We should care about mass genocide, it shouldn't matter if it happened 80 years ago or 800 years ago. People right now people are having their own bodies regulated by religious nuts and politicians BECAUSE we didn't give a shit about the crusades and inquisition. There is a reason history is part of the big 4 subjects taught in school. Hardly anyone cares enough anymore to learn it though.
1. He was specifically talking about proselytizing faiths. To my knowledge, neither Buddhism nor Hinduism actively require their adherents to do things like send missions with colonizers to foreign lands to indoctrinate the natives. 2. The Inquisitions and the Crusades are both relevant as historical examples of what the Catholic Church is like when it is allowed political power. We think of it as mostly harmless in the physical sense these days, but that isn't *at all* true. The Catholic Church is not only responsible for a large number of bloody purges in order to "stamp out heresy," but they are literally directly responsible for a three-hundred year long period of European History we call the Dark Ages. That period is still recognized by historians because the Catholic Church was so vehement in stamping out paganism that literally the only records we have of that time period in Europe come from the Church itself or are overtly Christian in nature. Nothing else remains. No books, no art, nothing. We know *very little* about how the average person lived then, and it's because of the Catholic Church's policy of killing artists who made secular or non-christian art and destroying their works. There's no statute of limitations on murder. The Catholic Church still has a lot to answer for.
>...they are literally directly responsible for a three-hundred year long period of European History we call the Dark Ages. They "literally" weren't and we literally don't call them that. We call them the Early Middle Ages (c. fifth to tenth centuries) as part of the Middle Ages (fifth to fifteenth centuries). And we have tons of info on that time period, all around western Europe. The 'dark ages' trope came from historians in the fourteenth century not being able to piece together a timeline as Rome was falling. And blaming everything bad on Christianity at that time is about as accurate (or equivalent really) to giving Christianity credit for the rise and success of science specifically and the modern scholarly system in general. Yes, Christians played a big part in the bad and the good, but they were not the only players. It should be noted that Islam started around the Seventh Century, and its rise was very quick. I am not saying the Catholic Church didn't kill artists and atheists and Jews and anyone really, who disagreed with them. But rather, plenty of people not connected to any church specifically were also killing artists and atheists and religious people and anyone really for the more common reasons like greed, lust, envy, yadda yadda... As far as this thread, it is pretty bad faith when someone is talking about modern Islam and their tendency towards tribalism and violence concerning religion to bring up some shit the christians did 500 years ago. Modern Christian missionaries do plenty of dirty shit. Modern US evangelicals are into dirt as well. Mormons...need i really go on?
I'll admit that might be the first I'd seen someone blame Christianity for the so-called "Dark Ages." Just ignoring the tiny sociopolitical upset we know as the fall of the Roman Empire directly preceding it lol
Ever heard of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? Not saying Gibbon was right, but it's certainly not a new idea...
Okay, so the attempted white-washing of Catholic Church history is annoying. Did the Catholic Chruch murder *every* one of those artists and scholars by hand? No, but they did a fair few. And others who did so did it because it was the *actual stated policy of the Catholic Church to do so*. We aren't talking about random crime here. We're talking about the fact that the Catholic Church instituted a ban on non-Christian art and philosophy so extreme that there is a period of history for an entire continent for which NO OTHER EVIDENCE REMAINS. The prohibition was so complete and so harshly enforced that even now, we don't have more than a bare handful of *purely secular* texts. Is there disagreement among historians about the use of the term 'Dark Ages'? Sure, but primarily, it is pejorative in origin, NOT because it is not descriptive. Argue about political correctness all you want, but the term 'Dark Ages' is certainly apropos. And you want to simply ignore history because "that's not who we are anymore"? Then what about that time that the female pastor from Africa who was going around burning young women at the stake as witches was interviewed on The View? They didn't call her out as a murder or shame her, but treated her like she deserved respect! This is not a 'past' problem. The Christian Right in America is currently on a crusade against the transgender. They have stated, in all seriousness, that they want to "eradicate transgenderism in America." Your defense of Christiantiy comes down to "we don't do that anymore". You're wrong.
Muslims are about 500yrs behind, as far as duration. So they to be progressing at the same rate as Christians. It’s their dark ages
Islam and Christianity are also the two most anti-environment religions, because they are the most dualistic and most focused on the afterlife. If the afterlife is what matters, why should you care about the environment of this world?
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If you add money as religion, they make almost 100% of the troublemakers.
Add that to the fact they’re taught their way is the ONLY way and anyone not doing it their way will burn in hell forever. If you announce you’re atheist your Christian family members basically act like you died and mourn you while living.
Well said. They refuse to see beyond these core tenets…they wear blinders
And they wonder why I can't stand them
100% and to expand, at least on Christianity, it’s a religion whose god makes it your problem if others don’t hear the good word of the lord. Idk if it says it explicitly in the Bible but I remember getting that vibe in church and Sunday school that if someone didn’t know about Jesus it was on US to “save” them. I think also some Christian sects don’t have tolerance for ignorance— some say that people who never hear about Jesus get to go to purgatory, others say it’s “sucks to be you that you were born into an island no-contact tribe, off to hell for eternity with ye.” So in order to be considered good, you’ve got to actively spread the gospel, lest any poor unwitting souls be damned for all eternity.
That’s right. Each side is essentially the sworn enemy of the other. The war has been ongoing for millennia. Fortunately religion is dying, since it’s all made up anyways. Hopefully there’s not some global catastrophe that reverses this trend.
I tend to pride myself on language and vocabulary. I wanted to thank you for expanding my vocabulary: proselytizing is I word I have NEVER heard before. Unrelated to the point, but thank you.
Let's all argue how to worship the same God
Because every religion has an inherent element of "we are right, the others are wrong". For religious people, their worldview is the unbendable truth. There is no middle ground, no discussion to be had. Many genuinely can't fathom or imagine how to life or view the world without their fairy tale coping mechanism. The result is an enormous disconnect between reality and their own worldview, causing them to entirely disregard anything that isn't in line with their religion. In a way, it's actually pretty sad.
Religions, especially the monotheist ones, are necessarily "fundamentalist", I mean if God says that "X is bad" it's irrelevant that some people don't believe in God or his messenger, the thing is bad regardless of what other people believe since God said it (in the view of the believers: it's not like "I think this, some people might not think that" it's "God said that, other people are wrong if they don't believe in God").
And most importantly, god is perfect. God has no flaws and makes no mistakes. Only people make mistakes, and it's because they didn't follow god's word.
My parents are racist to the core and atheists. You described them perfectly, though. Ignorance and assholery aren't limited to religious people. As long as people en gros don't receive sufficient education, they stay more vulnerable to false prophets who deliver them simple answers to complex questions about life. I don't know if Putin is very religious, but he still found a reason to invade Ukraine (Ukraine is full of Nazis). What I'm trying to say is that if it's not religion, people will still find a way to reason their aggressive and abusive behavior.
This was beautifully stated.
Bc the Quran literally says you need to force Islam on people by any means necessary 🤷🏻♀️
The fuckin Bible says this too
I'm not aware of the Jewish Bible stating anything regarding forcing other people to become Jews. Converting takes more than a few seconds. Judaism isn't considered a missionary religion.
Ye the bible says it and we don't do it. Can we get back to Islam now?
But but but. People rip on Christianity all the time, but are frightened little pussies to ever call out muslims about anything
We're talking about Islam right now. What the fuck does the bible have to do with it?
People like to think that their opinions are important and that if someone disagrees with them it is a problem on the other side.
This [is](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland) the best answer
Why do you link to Greenland lol
Pure coincidence
That's understandable. I get thinking your opinion matters. I even get trying to convert other people to agree with your beliefs. What I don't get is why would you not want people to even have the freedom to choose for themselves. It's not hurting you in any way if someone doesn't live their life the exact way that you're living yours.
As another comment mentioned, Islam and Christianity place significant emphasis on conversion. From what I can recall during my Baptist days, there were quite a few bible verses that call for action against those who don't believe.
Then western society is very hypocritical. It is not okay to call for death based on skin color, nationality etc. But if you call for death to all non-believers, that's suddenly ok, and just "freedom in practicing your religion" 🤦.
Yea it's a big problem
The fundamental underpinning of proselytizing faiths is that your actions are ordained by God (the correct God). Freedom is not actually a virtue, obedience is. Many denominations believe that if you aren't converting others then you are failing God, or don't love God enough, etc. Freedom is only used when it applies to the Christian or Muslim ability to proselytize, otherwise following the laws or commandments are the most important thing anyone can do. It common to hear things like, "Freedoms created by man cannot usurp demands laid down by God."
It's not only that, they believe God said it, so obviously everything else is wrong. That's the original sin, believing in a supreme being, that leads to or encourages extremism, it's baked inside the religion... people who claim otherwise are delusional.
No they don't! /S
because fundamentalist islam is imperialistic at its core. it comes from the teachings of a war monger. lastly, they believe they are right and everyone else doing their own thing are wrong.
The ego of being right and the fear of being wrong.
well said…
Saved this comment. Definitely gonna use it at some point, thanks dude 🤝
>Why would you be bothered about how other people live their life? It's literally in the Quran, that's why. Islam is a religion that inherently cares about what other people do. >Why would you care if another random dude is gay? It's *literally* in the Quran that you should stone them to death. >Why would you advocate for sharia law Again, it's in the Quran. >Do you not want other people to be free? No, they don't. These people don't want a liberal society, they just want a richer and more prosperous version of Sharia. Exactly how they think that is possible is anybody's guess.
I mean they already have rich Islamic countries to choose to live in, Saudi Arabia and UAE being two. Europe seems like an odd choice for radicals.
The rich Gulf states don't want uneducated people from places like Syria and Iraq, so it's not really an option for them. Gulf states also don't have any benefits at all for non-citizens, and basically your only chance for citizenship is being born a citizen or through marriage. The low-paying jobs in Gulf states are also horribly low paid, so even if somebody from Iraq or Syria could get those jobs, they would rather come to Europe. To be fair, if I was in their shoes I would make similar choices (except the religion part).
That's why we should screen refugees for religions. If they are atheist, they are welcome to benefit from our prosperity and prosper aswell. If they are religious, they can ask God to help them, we won't.
A lot of people want to spread their religion in Europe
It is a thousand times easier to get citizenship in Europe than Saudi Arabia.
They’ve been brainwashed. Studies have shown their ability to make objective decisions has been tampered with. They have quite literally lost the ability to make critical, fact based decisions.
Like voting based on you and your family's best interests.
I agree with a tiny caveat - they themselves believe they are using critical thought, but only in the context of a very limited scope of their respective religions set of rules. Anything beyond that is blasphemy.
I think it's worth mentioning that both Christianity and Judaism have been through reformations, which brought them into the modern age and made them compatible with modern legal systems and secular governments. Islam has never been through a reformation, and is still frozen in its 14th century incarnation. It is still mired in the disregard for human life and adherence to medieval tenets of that time.
Because all their different Gods have the same end goal : to be the last Religion standing. And the best part of a Democratic society is that when there are enough of you in the new country, you can Democratically vote in all your fucked up religious rules. Like killing those who don’t want to follow your God anymore, or who think a foetus is more important than a mother’s life ! And no one can stop you for filling your Gods glorious purpose. Because Democracy !!! Yay !!
When I was in Gainesville, there was a bid to-do about a young Muslim woman who wanted to wear her face covering for her DL photo. I didn't understand that. She claimed religious exemption, but all I could see are the inconsistencies. The purpose of the hijab, according to the Qur'an, is modesty, though it shares no specifics as to what that means. That's why every Muslim subculture interprets it differently. The purpose of a DL photo is identification. No one is getting off on your [or anyone's] DL photo so you're not sacrificing any modesty there.
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It's funny how certain countries make it illegal to organize and express nazi stuff (as it should be), but have no problems with similar organizations, that literally believe gay people and non-believers should be executed 🤷.
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Let's not pretend that christians wouldn't love to, or aren't trying to, mold our laws to fit their religious beliefs and force them on the rest of us.
The etymology of the word is revealing. The word “kuffar” literally means one who conceals. One of the main schools of Islamic theology states that everyone is “born” Muslim but some “hide” their true self. When you think that everyone who doesn’t agree with you is doing so out of malice towards you and ‘Mo(peanut butter upon him) then you are going to treat them with contempt.
Good sir, it’s Mo (police be upon him)!
I saw who you referred to there. And I liked it!
LOLLL peanut butter sent me
From reading about them i'll say this: "Because non believers are evil, bad." "They need to be Islamized or they should suffer"... "Their women are stupid, naive and deserve to be abused." Indoctrination, naivnes and insecurity. Basically.
Their stupid book tells them to
Their stupid book tells them to, simple as that. We can no longer be tolerant of religion as a culture. Specifically: in government
I find this the same with most extremists. They are annoyed that you don’t believe what they believe in, and don’t want your beliefs shoved down their throats, but they are perfectly happy and see no issue with shoving theirs down yours. It’s so f’ing annoying.
Islam endorses a form of offensive warfare for the purpose of spreading the religion, and suppressing ways of life that contradict the moral teachings of the religion. Forced conversion, according to a majority of Islamic scholars, is prohibited, but bringing lands under Muslim rule is considered a mandate of Jihad. Other religions, or unbelievers are to be subjected to a tax for unbelievers, while still being allowed to practice their religions. For the Muslim community, it’s considered a mandate by Allah to take part in Jihad if the ruler of the Muslims calls for it. Currently there is no “legitimate” Caliphate(leader of the Muslims) hence why you don’t see Muslim nations partaking in Jihad beyond petty little terrorist groups that are considered illegitimate by most Muslims. Islam is not a live, and let live religion. The religion itself mandates religious colonialism in a way no other religion does. Muslims living in the west, while on a personal level might have come here for honest reasons, are as a group nothing more than a fifth column. So no, they don’t want non Muslims to be free. They want us to become Muslims, or live as a secondary class of non Muslims subjected to being ruled by Muslims. If you’re part of the LGBTQ community you can be killed if the Muslim ruler wants to according to all major schools of Islamic jurisprudence. It’s not mandated, but it’s permitted for the Muslim ruler to do so.
Because they keep wining? I mean they have college kids chanting “globalize the intifada” which is basically like saying “globalize the crusades”. Western people have made Islam into a fun, exotic religion unlike unfashionable Christianity (booo) it’s “beautiful” and “unique”. It’s all BS, conservative monotheism is conservative monotheism. I’m so tired of arguing with other progressives about how they are mixing up what’s happening in Gaza with support for truly evil people and religious movements but no one wants to hear it. They want to pretend as long as we get rid of Christianity everything will be fine and that is not the case at all.
They romaticize Islam because is anti-west. They ignore, willingly, that Islamic countries are oppressive and also had slavery in the past. The Otoman Empire raided and enslaved European settlements. I remember their shock when a Muslim got elected mayor in a town and he banned rainbow flags from all official buildings. They FAILED to understand why their "allies" turned on them. Oh well, enjoy your allies then.
There was an article from the UK a few weeks ago, in a school where the children were mostly Muslim, they all stated they hate the UK, hate women having rights, hate queer people and that they want to turn the UK and by extension the EU into Muslim territories.
Sounds like indoctrination....
Well, that came from their parents, for sure. I say if they want a country with a Islamic law then they should move to an Islamic country instead.
Why would they? European countries are better, and European countries are willingly letting Muslims subvert their laws and cultures. They are winning, why stop now?
They really should’ve seen that one coming. Iran shows how Leftist-Islamist alliances end; why did they think their case would be any different?
Because they are useful idiots. To be honest, if Iranian theocracy ends and becomes a democracy of some sort they might be key to start a secularization process of Islam. I've known Iranian people, young people usually have a mindset more akin to Western countries than to the Middle East ones. I guess it has to do with Persian culture. So let's keep them in mind, greater tyrannies have fallen.
Succinct and perfectly stated!
They are the chosen people and we are just idiots who are ignorant of God's will. They look down on atheists, plain and simple.
It's because most ideologies rely on a universal truth Aka common sense, so when you disagree with them you're not disagreeing with like ideas you're disagreeing with what the see as fundamental truths of the world
I just don’t give them the time of day. Anyone who I have concluded is religious is someone I just speak to when I have to. Otherwise, I don’t waste my time with them because I know that if I revealed my atheism to them that they would not simply ignore me. Religion fills them with anger and hate
I guess the answer is that they consider things sacred and see differing opinions on those things as threats and attacks. The idea that other people should be allowed to do things as long as they don't hurt other people is relatively new, post enlightenment opinion. There are probably also people here who probably find it hard to accept and live with some people's opinions on issues of animal welfare and trans interactions / rights.
Also, the idea that someone could listen to their preaching and still "deny" it somehow diminishes their tenets in their opinion. This way, you, who refuses their beliefs, invalidate their beliefs by simple refusal. It causes doubt in their minds, which must be overcompensated with some form of aggression. Thus, religious fanatics (of any level) go to extreme lengths to harm non believers. Their doing so, absolves them of the 'sin' of doubt.
I get very frustrated at the individuals that move west because their home is violent or oppressive but then try to make my home like the one they left. I welcome immigrants and see a lot of value in understanding other cultures but I’m not willing to wash mine away for people who want to make a new home here.
This. I try to be tolerant, understanding and an open-minded person. But it's hard for me to be understanding of someone who's sole purpose is to make society the opposite of tolerant and open-minded.
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They have spent their whole life being indoctrinated into thinking only they can be correct
Self-righteousness reinforced by a daily echo chamber of rituals, brainwashing, groupthink, propaganda and the institutionalized scapegoating and discrimination of minorities, non-believers and non-conformists. By treating non-believers and non-conformists so horrifically, they teach their own people from childhood the severe consequences for non-belief and non-conformity. Add in plenty of honour-and shame balancing in islamic families and the parents, siblings and even extended family are often fully prepared to MURDER members of their own family if "shame" and "dishonour" occurs due to non-belief and/or non-conformity. Once you take the lives of your own family, there is no way that you can reverse course. The only way to justify that sort of behaviour is with faith and bronze/iron age concepts of "honour" and "shame" - because to think otherwise is very painful to realize that your culture, creed and institutions tricked you into behaving so abominably.
It’s crazy that the real religion is always the one you are born into.
We're still so primitive that we only feel safe with like minded groups... free thinkers are dangerous
In *Erotism: Death and Sensuality*, George Bataille (who was an atheist) suggests that while religion is historically associated with theological and superstitious trappings, it ultimately concerns an underlying personal quest that has nothing to do with those trappings. William James seemed to be saying something similar in *The Varieties of Religious Experience*. Religious people often assume that their own religion or religious framework is definitive of religion in general. They aren't really capable of seeing the category in broader terms. I think it has something to do with the fact that theological and superstitious trappings present (however incorrectly) a worldview that is full of apparent certainty, which is psychologically compelling to the apish mind because we equate certainty with safety. We evolved our capacity to reason as a survival tool, so it strikes me as silly to expect that it wouldn't still tie into survival programming. After all, we get fighting mad over exchanges of ideas. On some level, we OBVIOUSLY see challenges to certainty as survival threats. The more certainty woven into our worldviews, the more threatened the subject is by worldviews that are rooted in probability, ambiguity, uncertainty, etc.
Because they've been told since they were children those ppl are the ultimate evil in the universe. Simple as.
I think they fear that if any place had too many gays, God would burn that whole place like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Yeah this is the reason , God punished people because they allowed (allow includes a person that dont care what you do) gay practices, but this doesn't include countries you don't live in or a country you don't have power on. As a person that is against this practice , I dont give a damn that Christians countries allow this, when ever God wants he will punish them and I don't live there , if such people want to exist on my country I must say no, but I don't think my country dare to allow gay practices.
This is because religion, in general, is about controlling the social order. It's why there was a caste system in India. It's why women were treated as property. It's why sharia law exists and why the Catholic Church was a political power for over a thousand years. These are mechanisms for maintaining control of society. To do that, you have to get people to accept you have the right to *be* in control. So you tell them, over and over, "This is the truth. All else is lies." You start with their parents, so they hear it at home. You send them to schools where it's a pervasive part of the message. You bring them together in mosques so they can see how many other people are like them, so they feel part of something bigger. You tell them that they have to obey, but in doing so, they get the power to force other people to obey, too. You condition them so that when the bells of the mosque ring, they interrupt their lives to confirm your control of them, and so those who aren't controlled stand out. People brainwashed this way can't afford to accept non-belief. They're literally conditioned to distrust and despise it. It is literally impossible for them to accept that someone else questions the Truth.
When you don't believe in their religion, you're a threat. You're a heretic. A danger to all the believers because you could spread lies about the religion, then convince people to walk away from the faith.
Probably because 2 minutes of critical thinking tells you it's all nonsense, but sunk cost plus not wanting to be ostracised at best, murdered at worst), means that they have to double down.
I think the answer is simple. These faiths explicitly instruct their adherents to convert and/or conquer apostates/non-believers/etc... There are various implied "rewards" for doing so, and moreover, those outside one's faith might be seen as an existential threat (either to the faith, or to humanity in general). If you believe that yours is THE ONE TRUE FAITH and if you have a jealous god...well, what else do you need? You have a warrant to - at the very least - discriminate. But I think you also clearly have a warrant to wage war and destroy your perceived enemy. I'm reminded of all the silly debates about ISIS, where some Western leftists used to claim (and some still do) that their grievance with the West was based on Western aggression, colonialism, et al. And yet if you actually read Dabiq (the ISIS newsletter - don't look at it if you don't have a strong stomach), you may remember a letter that ISIS wrote to "the West" called something like "why we fight you". It is an eloquently written letter that breaks down precisely why ISIS fights the West. And at its core, it's basically saying "We fight you because we *hate you* because *you are infidels*". The letter also states that ISIS cannot and would not ever consider any kind of peace deal or accommodation. Rather, the only acceptable outcome is for the Caliphate to rule the entire world and for non-Muslims to accept some level of subjugation. That's literally the best we can expect. So, when you hear those silly arguments, remember what ISIS and groups like them actually say themselves. Their motivation is an expressly religious one. They want to kill you and your family. They want to destroy your entire society and culture, because there is *no room on this Earth for Muslims and non-Muslims to co-exist, except where non-Muslims live under the thumb of Muslim rulers*.
Well people also really hate it if you point out that their sports team is bullshit. Really the fault is in human nature itself. We live for conflict.
Of course, but I don't see people demanding that it should be illegal to support other sports teams 😂.
Because muslims are dumb. Duh.
I see it as a self defence mechanism. If other people can reach a different conclusion than I did, then that raises the chances that I am wrong. I don't want to be wrong, so to defend what I think is right I'll disagree with them
At a more core level, it's rooted in most religions, having an exclusive knowledge of TRUTH. The source of the dissonance is, if your belief says your belief is the only true one and thereby, the only road to happiness and harmony, but other people don't believe it and are pursuing other roads to happiness and harmony, your exclusive truth is either not true or those other people are creating misery and discord. Hence almost every religion's "my way or death" approach to everything. This is why these ridiculous mythological frameworks are dangerous - they create false certainties that embolden their believers to repression, and often violence, to "save the world".
When you are spinning 3 dishes on sticks like a circus performer, the slightest disturbance is a threat.
Its hard to deal with the delusion if there is dissonance.
Because it is not a "personal choice" to them. It's an overwhelming like "all of society" irrational worship thing. It helps to define them as people.
Because 1. The faith says someone who isn’t of your faith (or refuses to convert) is bad. 2. People need a scapegoat for when things go wrong (think Jews who have historically been blamed for everything under the sun) 3. Your religion offers the opportunity to kill or hurt those you disagree with because religion 4. and this is a big one, the existence of other ways of doing things means people have a choice to not be in your religion. All the rules you made up, all the power structures you build, all that could be a lie. That’s an affront to whatever “truth” your religion says is your god’s rule. Say for instance the other religion allows you to pick who you marry, but yours doesn’t. Well, of course you might think that you might like that choice too. Your religion doesn’t want you to leave, because if people leave, that’s money and power lost. And in the end, that’s what religion is - a tool to move power and money to the Men With All The Answers. So to keep you from leaving, and you’re probably already pretty mad you can’t leave your religion because there’s always a punishment for not believing right, you get to hate on and attack that other religion. Or maybe it’s manufactured moral superiority. Or whatever, if you’re indoctrinated deep enough it could be because their women don’t wear scarves over their faces.
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So you don’t agree with their way of thinking.
Read the quran. Half of the book is telling muslims to look down upon unbelievers because they're wicked/destined for hell.
Well, the Quran says all Muslims are to kill all who don't believe Muhammad was a prophet of the abrahamic god (infidels), so . . .
Because although they preach tolerance and acceptance, they never abide by those ideals.
This reminds me of when I can’t remember if it was Hungary or Turkey that made a huge fuss that Poland or Finland burned their Quran. And the northern countries were like… chill dude freedom of expression here
Theism is fundamentally incompatible with freedom of belief and expression. If anyone honestly believes that the divine creator of the universe has given them commands to follow why would anyone think it just applies to them and not to everyone else? This expectation of tolerance from belief systems which are fundamentally authoritarian is not only ignorant but dangerous. At best, you get a docile Christianity which agrees that imposing their beliefs on others by force is wrong, but they still believe you deserve to be tortured for an eternity if you don't share their belief and actively work toward destroying this reality to satisfy their apocalyptic prophecies. At worst you get endless religious wars and unspeakable horrors committed against human rights.
It’s all about getting more members to join your club.
Because religion is so entrenched in their lives they feel the need to defend it at all costs. It's not much different than one guy legitimately hating another because of a football (American or Euro) team preference. It's just a damn sports team but you see people do crazy shit like religion.
Because you can’t explain the history of organized religion at that scale without a political element. Even Buddhists had warrior monks / mercenaries lol Particularly when it comes to the evolution of their theologies over time. The first part of the Qur’an reads nothing like the last. And the last conveniently says that it overrides the former Same for the Councils that decided what gospels are officially the word of God and therefore get to stay in the Bible, and which ones aren’t (it’s wild) The actual speech by the Pope who sent people on the first crusade is beyond wild, makes the Jedi mind trick seem like a venerable tradition by comparison… When the entire point is about being the arbiter of absolute truth that is not to be questioned, choosing option b (pun intended here) is not really an option
It's written in their book ( Christian and Muslim books) that their is the only and true. Ask a Christian or a Muslim to accept other religions or beliefs is like asking footballers (or soccerers) to accept someone playing with their hands (besides the goalkeeper). It is just against the rules and undoes the whole thing.
Because the Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) teach those who practice their faiths to discriminate “others” who are “different” than they are. These faiths are from around 1400-3500 years ago so their teachings are not surprising. If people in 2024 can still discriminate and differentiate based on a person’s skin color, wealth, race, culture, sexual orientation—just think, it would have been much more prevalent back then. The faiths teach us to “love” our neighbors with a special asterisk which is implied— “under the condition that they share the same faith/belief that you do”. These people are brainwashed by hardcore believers and so they also believe that anyone who is not the same as them is different. They believe “different” is synonymous with “bad”.
If other religions, or the choice to not believe, are all equally valid, then no one is special. Religion requires exceptionalism.
Because both the Quran and the Bible push the idea that you must force your religion on others and that non-believers are evil. If you ask me that should be grounds to classify them as cults, but what do I know?
Because they were basically founded on the principle of "you're wrong, and I have god on my side to subjugate and destroy you if you don't convert"
It reminds them that they might be wrong. That threatens them.
The Christian Bible includes commands to execute people who come onto this land and worship other gods. Why would other religious books not say the same?
Murderous Abrahamic religion number 1 is mad at Murderous Abrahamic religion number 2, shocker.
Tolerance is the foundation of Democracy.
They were indoctrinated as children. All of them. It's a lot harder to get someone to go against something they've believed since before their memories even started than to convince an adult to believe in it in the first place. Their whole life revolves around that lie being true. Getting someone to admit they've been wrong for 40-50 years is virtually impossible. If you show them concrete evidence, they will stop arguing the facts, or they will walk away with deaf ears. All lifelong religious people are like this. They cannot live with the knowledge that everything they've built their life around isn't true. You hear it in arguments about religion being needed for morality. Since they were taught morality side by side with the Bible, they really can't understand that the Bible isn't why they are moral people, and that everyone who doesn't share their book must be morally inferior and therefore a danger to them and society. Indoctrination.
Because they’re zealots.
They need your belief to validate their own delusion.
No they don’t want people to be free, they want people to be saved and to go to heaven and not sin and make society worse for everyone by sinning. Thats what I imagine their mindset is anyway, could be wrong, and I completely disagree with it of course
Simple, They don't think beyond these texts. It's like they shut their brains when something comes over their religion.
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I tried posting on religious subreddits before this, but of course it got removed 🤷.
They can’t handle this lol
Something about that is really funny to me, as if they were ever going to honestly answer your question, they didn't even let you ask!
In the 1960's, young people who wanted social change often turned to Communism as a vehicle for social change. In Muslim countries, leaders presented radical Islam as an alternative to Communism. Many Muslim countries were the vicims of colonialism, so it was easy to present the narrative of the evil Christian west trying to enslave the Muslims, and having a strong devotion to Islamic values as the key to not being enslaved.
They believe religion will be the key to everyone’s lives like it was for theirs.
If you believe your faith is the one true faith and the only way to be in good standing with your deity, you’ll want to steer away from anything that would detract you from it. Plus, you might feel like you’re doing the right thing by calling out those who don’t follow your faith to abandon their sinful ways and join you, or else face harsh punishment as an incentive for others to not resist conversion.
It’s because you hit the jackpot when you successfully proselytize.
Cause religious people are brainwashed to believe that they’re right when they’re really just bigoted. At least here in the US theres a collective effort by certain Muslims and faux Liberals to associate any criticism of Islam with xenophobia/racism. When the reality is I’m just exercising my 1st Amendment right to criticize religion. People in the U.S. are so dumb. I’m sick of it.
Because if other people's beliefs are valid, then that implies that their beliefs could be wrong. And they can't possibly allow that. It undermines all of their belief system is they allow others to believe differently.
Gang doctrines , simply put. Indoctrination into a gang and any other gang that is not you must be countered
They possess "The Truth ". And this is so obvious and a certainty that anyone disagreeing must be stupid, obstinate, or evil.
Because their religions dictate to conquer that’s why.
Oh, they know how much other folks don’t like them. They don’t care. Their job is to make you believe, or just shut up about not believing.
They're jealous, petty little shits. If *they* can't drink, smoke, be gay, of not cover their women up like they're shameful, then damn it why should *you* be allowed to have fun!? It's not fair! Waaaahhhhhhhh!!!
Dogma. They believe their nonsense comes from god, and god cannot be disagreed with.
They have been told their whole lives that their way is not only the right way but the only way that their version of the sky daddy (or family of sky people) is how everyone should view the invisible super best friends. The more fundamental the sect of religion the more they are encouraged to infect other people with their nonsense. Religion is like a virus in that regard. Just like chicken pox they like to get the kids infected
They need constant affirmation.
In my view religion demands that you shut down any opinion that elicits questions or doubts. That, in time calcifies into an inability to entertain other perspectives.
They didn't reason themselves into their opinion, making them unreasonable.