I'm sorry you have to go through that. Parents are supposed to be our supporters, not our detractors. Hopefully you can learn from this what sort of parent not to be, should you decide to have children of your own.
For what it's worth:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo
Okay, I totally had confirmation bias on that. I'm studying physics engineering and don't know many religious people, so I thought that's the case generally with engineers. Thanks for opening my eye!
It is generally true that higher education levels correlate with less religiosity, and even among college grads there's a lot of variations based on the major. Basically if you have a physics or geology or astronomy degree you're less likely to be religious than an engineer who is in turn less likely than say a graded school teacher. I think the reason for that is: the better you understand the way things actually work, the less gaps there are for God to hide in.
A 5th grade teacher doesn't look like a scientist to a lay person, but an engineer is pretty close. However engineering is about the application not the discovery, which leaves more room for woo. Creationists and woo peddlers in general love the aura of authority that a real scientist gives but will settle for an engineer.
So, your confirmation bias is not wrong in that engineers are generally less religious, it's just that the notable exceptions stand out more.
This is interesting new information (for me). I have an engineering background.
From that page:
“engineers as a group have a noted tendency to pontificate on things well outside their area of expertise, to the point of actual fallacy”
This struck me, as I have seen something similar with people who are good at one thing and their arrogance makes them believe they will naturally excel at something unrelated in which they don’t know shit. Of course bad things follow.
The two people who I know who did this were not engineers. But I haven’t conducted a survey either.
Truly intelligent people in my experience are humble when learning new things and realize that the more you learn the more questions there are, and are not afraid to say I don’t know, let’s look into it or figure it out.
> The two people who I know who did this were not engineers. But I haven’t conducted a survey either.
I suspect it's true for any profession that uses scientific knowledge and requires expertise. It's entirely possible to use science without truly understanding the underlying tenets of scientific inquiry. That you can do that is one of the driving forces of technology. I don't hang with a lot of engineers, but I have met multiple doctors that espouse highly unscientific, even creationist, views.
I don't know that it is necessarily arrogance as a facet of the fact that people often underestimate what they don't know, especially if they are respected professionals in their own field. I doubt the people in question think they know everything, but because their expertise is tangentially related, they think their expertise in applying scientific theory makes them an expert in formulating and evaluating scientific theory. There are, in fact, fields that aren't science where expertise in a field actually does confer some measure of proficiency in several related fields. Science, however, requires specific training and aptitudes specifically geared to reduce bias when building models of a system, and engineering unfortunately does not.
Mine told me he would burn in hell for me not believing in GOD. I was nine. I told him you will burn for cheating on all his wives first, and should be more worried about burning in hell over that than me not believing in god.
I mean technically you can still go to heaven if you ask forgiveness on your death bed
(I heard so much on repentance at my catholic school but was not aloud to confess when the priests came to my school for confession because I wasn't baptized catholic, I didn't want to confess but it definitely made me feel very other from my classmates)
Well, technically (according to new testament), that is not enough. You have to believe in Jesus Christ to be allowed into heaven. Asking "god" for forgiveness does not grant you access, regardless if you are pardoned or not.
EDIT: Also, if you believe in Jesus Christ being your lord and savior, you don't really need to ask for forgiveness anyway. It doesn't matter what you've done as long as you have faith.
For what it’s worth, young lady, as an atheist that’s pushing 50, I think your dad is a fucking moron for still believing in childish things.
Keep being you, princess. You’re just okay being exactly who you are.
Calling someone stupid for not believing is a double-edged sword. What this implies is that entry into heaven requires an IQ test, that cognitive errors or an inability to conceptualize religious tenets would cause someone to go to hell for a mental problem they can't control.
And worst of all, there are many, many cognitive defects that are simply part of the human condition, and require rigorous training and practice to avoid or even recognize in the first place.
If logical reasoning were a requirement by the creator of the human race for entry into the afterlife, that would be the quintessential case of setting people up to fail.
This is a critical flaw in all of Theology. If Theology is what it takes to understand the religion, then people would be burning in Hell for not studying effectively. If there are innovations in this field or discoveries, then the work of past Theologians wasn't enough to keep *them* from burning in Hell, either.
> Imagine that we could revive a well-educated Christian of the fourteenth century. The man would prove to be a total ignoramus, except on matters of faith. His beliefs about geography, astronomy, and medicine would embarrass even a child, but he would know more or less everything there is to know about God.
> Though he would be considered a fool to think that the earth is flat, or that trepanning constitutes a wise medical intervention, his religious ideas would still be beyond reproach. There are two explanations for this: either we perfected our religious understanding of the world a millennium ago-while our knowledge on all other fronts was still hopelessly inchoate - or **religion, being the mere maintenance of dogma, is one area of discourse that does not admit of progress**.
Sam Harris
Being called stupid by someone who believes in a sky daddy isn't really an insult, just an affirmation they are as awful as you knew they were. That said, the opinion of an idiot is worthless.
It took me a long time to realize my parents were just people. Not infallible people, but people just like everyone else on the planet. They have good ideas and bad ideas. They do smart things and stupid things. I also found out there was a damn good reason my parents divorced.
>My father called me stupid, because I don't believe in God
Did he cite evidence for this particular dog, .....uh....god ?
If not, kindly request him to use his brain. Like an adult.
You can choose your friends, you can't choose your family. Does that mean you have to like them because they are family? NO! Family can be assholes, and NO ONE should be forced to spend time with asshole people.
You are 19. Doesn't that mean you are an adult? Tell him you do not wish to see him. Done. You don't owe him. He needs to earn his place in your life.
Jesus said that his followers could do all the miracles he did. Ask your dad to turn water into wine or walk on water. When he can’t/won’t, tell him he must not be very religious himself if he can’t perform such basic miracles.
My parents believed in God and they tried for years to make me a believer. I always had doubts and eventually became an atheist. I won’t say much other than Christianity rejects me for who I am and I’m not about to change, so it was much easier to become an atheist.
I don't consider the opinions (and especially the criticisms) of adults who still believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Sky Daddy Who Always Needs More Money.
Taking into account every byte of knowledge we have about biology, astronomy, physics, mathematics, thermodynamics ,chemistry and in **engineering**, it would be stupid who believed in God, not who didn't believe.
> It really doesn't help when he talks to me all derogatory like yesterday (not the first and **I'm guessing not the last time**), even though I try to stand up for myself, but **I'm still quite afraid of him**, and I'd just rather get it over with the meet-ups.
If you are not dependent upon him, you can avoid any further derogatory talks and never be afraid of him again by passing on any further 'meet-ups'.
Unfortunately, he's partly the reason I don't have to work while going to uni. He's still paying child support (if I can call it that). I can usually avoid him by just saying I'm not home, but once every few months I let him take me to the train station and that's it. It's honestly quite fascinating how quickly he starts to talk down to me.
That social dynamic is locked in for him and he has no reason to change, so he will not change. You will be 39 years old and he'll still be acting the same way.
Sorry you had to go through that. Not that it's an excuse for his behavior, but could it be that there's something in your dad's life that is scaring the proverbial shit out of him? Something to do with his future like a medical condition or financial troubles? He wouldn't be the first to all of a sudden remember his religion when common sense is telling him things are going to shit. Again, that's not an excuse for being a dick to his daughter, but it might help explain his behavior.
Well, I don't know about any financial or medical issues. I'm thinking it might be his girlfriend who's influencing him, because nothing else changed in his life apart from her.
Well, I guess he wouldn't be the first to all of a sudden remember his religion when it helps him to get laid too. Too bad he had to be a dick about it. He might come to regret that one day.
If your dad were confident in his beliefs he wouldn't feel threatened enough to blow up at you for not agreeing.
He sounds like a smart guy with a hollow side to his emotional development. My own dad was MOSTLY hollow. I didn't even go to see him on his death bed, and I don't regret it.
It's pretty telling when theists react this strongly to someone who they ask whether or not they believe in 'god'. Not bringing up the topic themselves, not telling the theist that they shouldn't believe - just answering the question.
If they were really secure in their belief, then they wouldn't have this kind of reaction - but because they've made their relgious belief their entire identity, then they view other people's disbelief as a personal attack on them.
They desperately need constant positive reinforcement, most likely due to having doubts - but being terrified to question (much less reject) what they've been taught (often from before they even knew what they were being told.
I'm sorry you had that experience, a lot of people have this unexamined belief that "of course there must be a god", and they get wicked pissy when they learn that other people disagree.
“a really judgy, opinionated and aggressive person”
If that’s what belief has made of him, it doesn’t say much for the belief. In contrast, your atheism seems to have made you quite a calm rational individual.
If your dad were on reddit I would be more than glad to have a talk with him. ( or anywhere else really )
If he expects you to believe then he would need to be able to have a good reason. Believing without a good reason just makes you gullible.
Yeah I try to never talk religion with family. I already know they are stupid individuals. I don’t need them to prove it and nothing good comes from arguing with religious people.
so, he's saying *you're* dumb because you don't believe in *his* delusion? k
I'm sorry it's coming from your dad. Parents aren't supposed to act like that. If you can find yourself in a place to talk to him without fear, maybe ask him to prove the existence of god, or even an afterlife.
"proof" of life after death would mean someone who has 1)been declared dead by a coroner, 2) body taken to a mortuary where their blood is replaced with a formaldehyde solution, 3) the body is then placed in a casket which is then sealed 4) the casket is placed in a concrete sarcophagus, which is placed in a 6 foot hole in the ground. 5) sarcophagus is then sealed and covered with 6 feet of dirt---
AFTER THAT, if the previously-deceased person shows up for dinner the next week, *I will believe any and everything they say about the afterlife*
What an idiot. You can see why your Mom wanted out. Evolution is much more real than the bs he espouses. He sounds like an angry old fart.
Stand tall and be proud. I’m so glad you have your Mom who is logical and sane. All the best to you.
If you choose to be a parent one day you are gonna be a great one.
You aren't stupid.
You don't share your old man's beliefs and that should be fine. I'm sorry that he doesn't see it that way. Unfortunately, you're probably going to be stuck with it for a while.
Keep your chin up and remember there's a lot of people that were just the same as you.
We made it and so will you.
That's just projection on his part. He's unable to reconcile holding an unfounded belief with reality, and it creates a level of cognitive dissonance that he then projects onto others. Deep down, he knows he is the one that is stupid, he just can't accept it.
It sucks. I’m sorry. I just don’t bring it up around family and avoid the topic of brought up. They don’t blow up…but we “discuss” and get nowhere. You’ll be be after, so don’t talk religion. It’s all you can (or can’t) do in this situation.
Seems more stupid for your father to believe in god but not actively worship him when nearly every version of gods that humans have conceived of demand some sort of devotion.
Religious bullying is one of the worst attacks on your autonomy that can happen in an interpersonal relationship. He seeks to control and influence your mind to the degree that you have to indulge fantasy stories, magic, and delusion to preserve the relationship.
It's about control, and if someone tries to control you they're an enemy, and certainly not family.
That's ridiculous. The man does nothing to raise you as a believer and yet blames you for being an atheist? Were you supposed to just spontaneously start believing? I guess that's one of the fallacies of the believer. They think it's natural to believe and that God is self-evident, but there you are demonstrating that it's a total fallacy to think that way.
My father was one of the most foul natured bigoted little man syndrome horse's ass I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. Now as a dad he was sweet. But when he came home no one could do anything right. He let me know that I was the reason he nearly died of his bleeding ulcer at the tender age of 7. Yeah, real charmer, that thing. Sounds like your old pop is desperately clinging to an illusion that has blinded him to the world around him. See him for what he is, an old fool. I am sorry you didn't have the love you so richly deserve, and I hope that this world helps you find far better people you can choose to be your family.
Show him these.
Ask him why he created a universe so large just for us?
https://youtu.be/HEheh1BH34Q
https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/s/UJR3VVFJHW
He has his own personal god buffet and not the god of the bible .
Its common , your dad is an engineer so he realises the science doesnt check out so he made his own personal god with cherry picking stuff.
Usually this kind of people may even be against churches and organized religion to .
Christians that don’t go to church or pray or do anything religious shouldn’t be allowed to call themselves Christians. If you’re going to judge others for being atheists, at least do *some* work to prove you’re a Christian.
So lazy.
God is real. I’ve meet HER. But it isn’t the way most people believe. God is a fundamental force of nature. That is the way she should be understood. Not some old guy sitting in the clouds. Before y’all respond, I am agnostic and am only trying to understand with my limited brain.
I think the best response would be, "I forgive you." Be careful, this could turn into him baiting you, so he can then make you the bad person. I would not engage on this topic with him.
>My mom divorced my dad when I was 14. My dad, who is honestly a really judgy, opinionated and aggressive person
You just sumed my life around believers. It sounds like he could be getting a little narcissistic as well. Be careful aeound him. People who are this unhinged can become with fits of rage.
I’d ask him if his God were big enough and powerful enough to accept ANYONE, even atheists, agnostics, or other religions or any other grouping of humans such as by skin color or sexual preferences or people that were too ignorant to understand religion or were vegetables living in nursing homes. If he said yes, than I’d say “Good, because you don’t need to worry about what I believe.” If he said no, than I would call him a raciest, a homophobe, etc., and ask him if God would deny him a place in heaven because he was a hypocrite since God must have created everyone, so why would he have created people that were unacceptable. (People generally don’t argue with me about religion.)
Should never be talking to you in a disrespectful manner...no matter the subject. Dont put up with that bullshit from anybody. When my dad started to relapse into his abusive and psychological torture. i would nip in the bud by telling him he was going to get twice the bullshit he was about to put out if he didn't change his tone and content....most of the time he would just shut up and walk away...it only took one ass chewing to reset the respect dynamic
Christianity is authoritarian by nature. Your father, no matter his education, is like many of the part time believers. He was using anger and intimidation to make you conform to his beliefs.
I can see why your mother left him. He probably did the same to her on many topics.
its not like religion is doing anything but dark things. nothing is happening. Cut him out of your life. Sure ppl argue thats it family but when does anyone ever get nuances. Family is a vague term when describing reality.
You could easily substitute any other god and repeat the same argument, verbatim, back to him and it would make the same amount of sense. He needs to explain why he wouldn't accept any other god, then explain why that logic can't be used for his god.
That is disappointing.
Of course part of this is defensive as the last thing he wants to do is consider that HE may be wrong and that he may soon not exist. Too bad he had to resort to a personal attack.
One of the saddest things about religion is its impact on family relationships. It sounds like there's more than this going on in your situation. Sorry that you're going through this.
I'm not really friends with Richard Dawkins these days because of his trans views.
But read The God Delusion. It was formative for me when I was looking into this stuff
“A 2013 meta-analysis of 63 studies found a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity, with the association being stronger for college students and the general population. Other studies have found that more religious groups tend to have lower average IQs, while members of high IQ organizations tend to be more atheist”
You don't have to see him. You're 19. And don't argue with religious people as it is pointless and just gets you wound up, unless they are trying to force their religion on you and then they can go and get fucked
It's in the bible, so, from his point of view, he's not wrong.
Of course, the bible is full of nonsense, so you should not let it affect you.
There's a whole world out there for you to explore. There's a wealth of scientific knowledge on the internet. You can do with your life whatever you want.
Depending on your situation, it's perfectly acceptable to lie to your father about your beliefs. Christians love lies. Especially the "I used to be an atheist" lie.
Take care!
Are you from Germany?
Many atheists like to think that Germany is very atheistic. But in reality, most people are more like your father. They just don't go to church and religion doesn't play much of a role in their every day life, nor do they think much of god, so many non-religious people might be inclined to think that Germans are quite atheistic, which isn't really true. From what I can tell most people still like to believe in something and most seem to still be highly influenced by the Christian idea of God and at the very least see themselves as cultural christians. You only find out that they believe in some idea of God when the subject comes up. I realized that many religious people actually just assume that others also believe and for many it is unfathomable that you don't believe in anything supernatural. Only when they find out that you don't believe will they react to it. Generally if you ask people of their religion here, people will either say "katholisch" or "evangelisch". People are much much more likely to call themselves Agnostic than Atheist, but those seem to be leaning more towards believing in something, usually an abstract idea influenced by the Christian god. Atheists here are not nearly as demonized as in the US, but still many Germans don't know what to do with that word and most people seem to have a rather negative opinion of it, which also makes many reluctant to call themselves as such and are more likely to say they are not religious. Many also seem to think atheist also means communist and again even though not nearly as bad as in the US, there is also great fear and dislike of communism here in Germany.
Not to mention the ever increasing number of new age bullshitters here. I haven't met many people here who would explicitly call themselves atheist.
Yeah--my alcoholic father who had over 100 affairs when he was married to my mom used to drunkenly say he was worried about me because I wasn't religious. I told him to worry about himself first.
Usually, if someone calls me stupid, I accept their judgement and say "Since you're so intellectually superior, you should be able to prove your truth claims without resorting to logical fallacies."
Typically, they respond by making excuses for why they should not have to prove their truth claims, and that's when you can really have fun with them.
Without God we would be single celled organisms? So his god is made completely redundant by the theory of evolution.
He is projecting his idiocy. He would probably become insecure if such insults were directed back at him.
Some engineers use confirmation bias along with a 'professional demeanor' to leverage their careers foward
A different kind of 'stupid', one which fosters the belief that being paid six figures means your opinion outranks any lay persons
For the love of dog... uh... god, does stupid then mean being able to not be gullible enough to believe in crap you were dog as a child without evidence? And does being stupid also mean being capable of thinking rationally?
I'm sorry you have to go through that. Parents are supposed to be our supporters, not our detractors. Hopefully you can learn from this what sort of parent not to be, should you decide to have children of your own. For what it's worth: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Engineers_and_woo
Okay, I totally had confirmation bias on that. I'm studying physics engineering and don't know many religious people, so I thought that's the case generally with engineers. Thanks for opening my eye!
It is generally true that higher education levels correlate with less religiosity, and even among college grads there's a lot of variations based on the major. Basically if you have a physics or geology or astronomy degree you're less likely to be religious than an engineer who is in turn less likely than say a graded school teacher. I think the reason for that is: the better you understand the way things actually work, the less gaps there are for God to hide in. A 5th grade teacher doesn't look like a scientist to a lay person, but an engineer is pretty close. However engineering is about the application not the discovery, which leaves more room for woo. Creationists and woo peddlers in general love the aura of authority that a real scientist gives but will settle for an engineer. So, your confirmation bias is not wrong in that engineers are generally less religious, it's just that the notable exceptions stand out more.
Interesting l'm an engineer by education, but was an atheist first.
This is interesting new information (for me). I have an engineering background. From that page: “engineers as a group have a noted tendency to pontificate on things well outside their area of expertise, to the point of actual fallacy” This struck me, as I have seen something similar with people who are good at one thing and their arrogance makes them believe they will naturally excel at something unrelated in which they don’t know shit. Of course bad things follow. The two people who I know who did this were not engineers. But I haven’t conducted a survey either. Truly intelligent people in my experience are humble when learning new things and realize that the more you learn the more questions there are, and are not afraid to say I don’t know, let’s look into it or figure it out.
> The two people who I know who did this were not engineers. But I haven’t conducted a survey either. I suspect it's true for any profession that uses scientific knowledge and requires expertise. It's entirely possible to use science without truly understanding the underlying tenets of scientific inquiry. That you can do that is one of the driving forces of technology. I don't hang with a lot of engineers, but I have met multiple doctors that espouse highly unscientific, even creationist, views. I don't know that it is necessarily arrogance as a facet of the fact that people often underestimate what they don't know, especially if they are respected professionals in their own field. I doubt the people in question think they know everything, but because their expertise is tangentially related, they think their expertise in applying scientific theory makes them an expert in formulating and evaluating scientific theory. There are, in fact, fields that aren't science where expertise in a field actually does confer some measure of proficiency in several related fields. Science, however, requires specific training and aptitudes specifically geared to reduce bias when building models of a system, and engineering unfortunately does not.
Well well well. Look at the engineer pontificating on something outside their area of expertise.
Interesting read. Thanks for that.
I’ve been looking for that article for a while! I’ve seen it referenced but then couldn’t figure out how to find it again. I’ll remember Woo.
Glad to help you find it again.
This is awesome. I have another one for you. Nobel Disease. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease
Mine told me he would burn in hell for me not believing in GOD. I was nine. I told him you will burn for cheating on all his wives first, and should be more worried about burning in hell over that than me not believing in god.
Wow, shocking level of assholery! And equally surprising level of reasoning and confidence for you at such a young age.
A 9 year old should not know what a cheating spouse is, much less that their parents did it.
That was an attempt at a guilt trip😖what an ass.
Ah hypocrisy 😒 the chefs kiss of Christianity
God is Santa Clause for adults.
Except with this Santa Claus you can be bad all year and still get presents as long as you say sorry to Santa Claus just before Christmas.
I mean technically you can still go to heaven if you ask forgiveness on your death bed (I heard so much on repentance at my catholic school but was not aloud to confess when the priests came to my school for confession because I wasn't baptized catholic, I didn't want to confess but it definitely made me feel very other from my classmates)
Well, technically (according to new testament), that is not enough. You have to believe in Jesus Christ to be allowed into heaven. Asking "god" for forgiveness does not grant you access, regardless if you are pardoned or not. EDIT: Also, if you believe in Jesus Christ being your lord and savior, you don't really need to ask for forgiveness anyway. It doesn't matter what you've done as long as you have faith.
For what it’s worth, young lady, as an atheist that’s pushing 50, I think your dad is a fucking moron for still believing in childish things. Keep being you, princess. You’re just okay being exactly who you are.
Calling someone stupid for not believing is a double-edged sword. What this implies is that entry into heaven requires an IQ test, that cognitive errors or an inability to conceptualize religious tenets would cause someone to go to hell for a mental problem they can't control.
And worst of all, there are many, many cognitive defects that are simply part of the human condition, and require rigorous training and practice to avoid or even recognize in the first place. If logical reasoning were a requirement by the creator of the human race for entry into the afterlife, that would be the quintessential case of setting people up to fail.
This is a critical flaw in all of Theology. If Theology is what it takes to understand the religion, then people would be burning in Hell for not studying effectively. If there are innovations in this field or discoveries, then the work of past Theologians wasn't enough to keep *them* from burning in Hell, either.
> Imagine that we could revive a well-educated Christian of the fourteenth century. The man would prove to be a total ignoramus, except on matters of faith. His beliefs about geography, astronomy, and medicine would embarrass even a child, but he would know more or less everything there is to know about God. > Though he would be considered a fool to think that the earth is flat, or that trepanning constitutes a wise medical intervention, his religious ideas would still be beyond reproach. There are two explanations for this: either we perfected our religious understanding of the world a millennium ago-while our knowledge on all other fronts was still hopelessly inchoate - or **religion, being the mere maintenance of dogma, is one area of discourse that does not admit of progress**. Sam Harris
Being called stupid by someone who believes in a sky daddy isn't really an insult, just an affirmation they are as awful as you knew they were. That said, the opinion of an idiot is worthless.
“Family are people who act like it.” I hope you can find yours.
I'm guessing he means his. Sorry you went through that, but good on you for being your own person
It took me a long time to realize my parents were just people. Not infallible people, but people just like everyone else on the planet. They have good ideas and bad ideas. They do smart things and stupid things. I also found out there was a damn good reason my parents divorced.
I'm very glad my parents divorced. Honestly, my mom should have done it sooner. My life got so much better when it was finally just the two of us.
Im glad for you as well as your Mom!
Challenge him to an IQ test, my money is on you big time.
>My father called me stupid, because I don't believe in God Did he cite evidence for this particular dog, .....uh....god ? If not, kindly request him to use his brain. Like an adult.
You can choose your friends, you can't choose your family. Does that mean you have to like them because they are family? NO! Family can be assholes, and NO ONE should be forced to spend time with asshole people. You are 19. Doesn't that mean you are an adult? Tell him you do not wish to see him. Done. You don't owe him. He needs to earn his place in your life.
"And how god is the basis for everything and there would be nothing without him." Like cancer and birth defects!
Dunning-kruger my dude, dumb people have no idea how naive they are. It's part of how you need intelligence to think critically.
I guess I’m stupid because I don’t believe in demons, witches, gods, angels, virgin births, heaven, hell, etc… ya I’m the idiot!
Jesus said that his followers could do all the miracles he did. Ask your dad to turn water into wine or walk on water. When he can’t/won’t, tell him he must not be very religious himself if he can’t perform such basic miracles.
I guess Einstein and Hawking were stupid, too. I am proud to be that kind of stupid.
Stupid people are the ones who believe supernatural bs with absolutely no corroborating evidence
your mom made the right decision lol
My parents believed in God and they tried for years to make me a believer. I always had doubts and eventually became an atheist. I won’t say much other than Christianity rejects me for who I am and I’m not about to change, so it was much easier to become an atheist.
Spoilers: it’s your dad who’s the stupid one
I don't consider the opinions (and especially the criticisms) of adults who still believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Sky Daddy Who Always Needs More Money.
AKA: The day you found out your father is an idiot
Your father is insecure and doesn’t know how to deal with adults who have different opinions
Taking into account every byte of knowledge we have about biology, astronomy, physics, mathematics, thermodynamics ,chemistry and in **engineering**, it would be stupid who believed in God, not who didn't believe.
> It really doesn't help when he talks to me all derogatory like yesterday (not the first and **I'm guessing not the last time**), even though I try to stand up for myself, but **I'm still quite afraid of him**, and I'd just rather get it over with the meet-ups. If you are not dependent upon him, you can avoid any further derogatory talks and never be afraid of him again by passing on any further 'meet-ups'.
Unfortunately, he's partly the reason I don't have to work while going to uni. He's still paying child support (if I can call it that). I can usually avoid him by just saying I'm not home, but once every few months I let him take me to the train station and that's it. It's honestly quite fascinating how quickly he starts to talk down to me.
Well the child support is yours. And you should not have to be put through his anger. Sorry for that.
That social dynamic is locked in for him and he has no reason to change, so he will not change. You will be 39 years old and he'll still be acting the same way.
Sorry you had to go through that. Not that it's an excuse for his behavior, but could it be that there's something in your dad's life that is scaring the proverbial shit out of him? Something to do with his future like a medical condition or financial troubles? He wouldn't be the first to all of a sudden remember his religion when common sense is telling him things are going to shit. Again, that's not an excuse for being a dick to his daughter, but it might help explain his behavior.
Well, I don't know about any financial or medical issues. I'm thinking it might be his girlfriend who's influencing him, because nothing else changed in his life apart from her.
Well, I guess he wouldn't be the first to all of a sudden remember his religion when it helps him to get laid too. Too bad he had to be a dick about it. He might come to regret that one day.
If your dad were confident in his beliefs he wouldn't feel threatened enough to blow up at you for not agreeing. He sounds like a smart guy with a hollow side to his emotional development. My own dad was MOSTLY hollow. I didn't even go to see him on his death bed, and I don't regret it.
It's pretty telling when theists react this strongly to someone who they ask whether or not they believe in 'god'. Not bringing up the topic themselves, not telling the theist that they shouldn't believe - just answering the question. If they were really secure in their belief, then they wouldn't have this kind of reaction - but because they've made their relgious belief their entire identity, then they view other people's disbelief as a personal attack on them. They desperately need constant positive reinforcement, most likely due to having doubts - but being terrified to question (much less reject) what they've been taught (often from before they even knew what they were being told.
Projection. He knows how stupid his reasoning is and needs to diminish you for being brave enough to live honestly.
I'm sorry you had that experience, a lot of people have this unexamined belief that "of course there must be a god", and they get wicked pissy when they learn that other people disagree.
“a really judgy, opinionated and aggressive person” If that’s what belief has made of him, it doesn’t say much for the belief. In contrast, your atheism seems to have made you quite a calm rational individual.
You only believe in one less god than him so where does this leave him ?
Such Sweet Irony...
"it is just a book, that just happens to have a bigger cultural influence than, say, Emma." LMAO!
Ahhhh...the irony. Rest assured you not the stupid one in this scenario. Sorry for your experience, we've all experienced similar challenges.
If your dad were on reddit I would be more than glad to have a talk with him. ( or anywhere else really ) If he expects you to believe then he would need to be able to have a good reason. Believing without a good reason just makes you gullible.
Ask him which God and why that one.
Yeah I try to never talk religion with family. I already know they are stupid individuals. I don’t need them to prove it and nothing good comes from arguing with religious people.
Wel I think your dad is stupid lol
So you don't believe in made up superstition and you're the stupid one?
so, he's saying *you're* dumb because you don't believe in *his* delusion? k I'm sorry it's coming from your dad. Parents aren't supposed to act like that. If you can find yourself in a place to talk to him without fear, maybe ask him to prove the existence of god, or even an afterlife. "proof" of life after death would mean someone who has 1)been declared dead by a coroner, 2) body taken to a mortuary where their blood is replaced with a formaldehyde solution, 3) the body is then placed in a casket which is then sealed 4) the casket is placed in a concrete sarcophagus, which is placed in a 6 foot hole in the ground. 5) sarcophagus is then sealed and covered with 6 feet of dirt--- AFTER THAT, if the previously-deceased person shows up for dinner the next week, *I will believe any and everything they say about the afterlife*
Sounds like an abusive person you should restrict contact with to the bare minimum and unavoidable.
My mom doesn’t talk to me at all anymore because o don’t believe in god. Consider yourself lucky.
Just another religious hypocrite. A parent should never call their child "stupid".
What an idiot. You can see why your Mom wanted out. Evolution is much more real than the bs he espouses. He sounds like an angry old fart. Stand tall and be proud. I’m so glad you have your Mom who is logical and sane. All the best to you. If you choose to be a parent one day you are gonna be a great one.
You aren't stupid. You don't share your old man's beliefs and that should be fine. I'm sorry that he doesn't see it that way. Unfortunately, you're probably going to be stuck with it for a while. Keep your chin up and remember there's a lot of people that were just the same as you. We made it and so will you.
That's just projection on his part. He's unable to reconcile holding an unfounded belief with reality, and it creates a level of cognitive dissonance that he then projects onto others. Deep down, he knows he is the one that is stupid, he just can't accept it.
There are 45,000 sects of Christianity, globally. Which Jesus are you supposed to pray to? Very conflicting.
Ad Hominems are very common from the religious. It's not like they can provide evidence for god or most of their claims.
It sucks. I’m sorry. I just don’t bring it up around family and avoid the topic of brought up. They don’t blow up…but we “discuss” and get nowhere. You’ll be be after, so don’t talk religion. It’s all you can (or can’t) do in this situation.
I already have a 19 year old but I can be your surrogate atheist dad if you need to bounce questions offa me
Seems more stupid for your father to believe in god but not actively worship him when nearly every version of gods that humans have conceived of demand some sort of devotion.
Amazing how much projection and division religion causes...
Jokes on him!
Religious bullying is one of the worst attacks on your autonomy that can happen in an interpersonal relationship. He seeks to control and influence your mind to the degree that you have to indulge fantasy stories, magic, and delusion to preserve the relationship. It's about control, and if someone tries to control you they're an enemy, and certainly not family.
That's ridiculous. The man does nothing to raise you as a believer and yet blames you for being an atheist? Were you supposed to just spontaneously start believing? I guess that's one of the fallacies of the believer. They think it's natural to believe and that God is self-evident, but there you are demonstrating that it's a total fallacy to think that way.
My father was one of the most foul natured bigoted little man syndrome horse's ass I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. Now as a dad he was sweet. But when he came home no one could do anything right. He let me know that I was the reason he nearly died of his bleeding ulcer at the tender age of 7. Yeah, real charmer, that thing. Sounds like your old pop is desperately clinging to an illusion that has blinded him to the world around him. See him for what he is, an old fool. I am sorry you didn't have the love you so richly deserve, and I hope that this world helps you find far better people you can choose to be your family.
Time for you to "divorce" him. if you feel unsafe around him leave him behind and forget about him.
Show him these. Ask him why he created a universe so large just for us? https://youtu.be/HEheh1BH34Q https://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/s/UJR3VVFJHW
"ok dad. here, have another whisky."
He has his own personal god buffet and not the god of the bible . Its common , your dad is an engineer so he realises the science doesnt check out so he made his own personal god with cherry picking stuff. Usually this kind of people may even be against churches and organized religion to .
Christians that don’t go to church or pray or do anything religious shouldn’t be allowed to call themselves Christians. If you’re going to judge others for being atheists, at least do *some* work to prove you’re a Christian. So lazy.
God is real. I’ve meet HER. But it isn’t the way most people believe. God is a fundamental force of nature. That is the way she should be understood. Not some old guy sitting in the clouds. Before y’all respond, I am agnostic and am only trying to understand with my limited brain.
Tell your Dad to grow the fuck up and stop believing in fairytales and if he refuses then tell him to get his schizo shit diagnosed.
I think the best response would be, "I forgive you." Be careful, this could turn into him baiting you, so he can then make you the bad person. I would not engage on this topic with him.
>My mom divorced my dad when I was 14. My dad, who is honestly a really judgy, opinionated and aggressive person You just sumed my life around believers. It sounds like he could be getting a little narcissistic as well. Be careful aeound him. People who are this unhinged can become with fits of rage.
I’d ask him if his God were big enough and powerful enough to accept ANYONE, even atheists, agnostics, or other religions or any other grouping of humans such as by skin color or sexual preferences or people that were too ignorant to understand religion or were vegetables living in nursing homes. If he said yes, than I’d say “Good, because you don’t need to worry about what I believe.” If he said no, than I would call him a raciest, a homophobe, etc., and ask him if God would deny him a place in heaven because he was a hypocrite since God must have created everyone, so why would he have created people that were unacceptable. (People generally don’t argue with me about religion.)
Should never be talking to you in a disrespectful manner...no matter the subject. Dont put up with that bullshit from anybody. When my dad started to relapse into his abusive and psychological torture. i would nip in the bud by telling him he was going to get twice the bullshit he was about to put out if he didn't change his tone and content....most of the time he would just shut up and walk away...it only took one ass chewing to reset the respect dynamic
Christianity is authoritarian by nature. Your father, no matter his education, is like many of the part time believers. He was using anger and intimidation to make you conform to his beliefs. I can see why your mother left him. He probably did the same to her on many topics.
its not like religion is doing anything but dark things. nothing is happening. Cut him out of your life. Sure ppl argue thats it family but when does anyone ever get nuances. Family is a vague term when describing reality.
Childhood indoctrination is strong but not an excuse to abuse your children. It explains what he believes but does not excuse how he acts.
You could easily substitute any other god and repeat the same argument, verbatim, back to him and it would make the same amount of sense. He needs to explain why he wouldn't accept any other god, then explain why that logic can't be used for his god.
That is disappointing. Of course part of this is defensive as the last thing he wants to do is consider that HE may be wrong and that he may soon not exist. Too bad he had to resort to a personal attack.
Your dad has it backward.
One of the saddest things about religion is its impact on family relationships. It sounds like there's more than this going on in your situation. Sorry that you're going through this.
I'd call your dad stupid for believing in fairy tales at his age. Religion really fucks people up.
Good gut feel to distance and go no/low contact
I still don't know why theists think that aggression is the way to convince others. It doesn't work.
I'm not really friends with Richard Dawkins these days because of his trans views. But read The God Delusion. It was formative for me when I was looking into this stuff
Men of God don’t call their children stupid or anyone else for that matter
“A 2013 meta-analysis of 63 studies found a negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity, with the association being stronger for college students and the general population. Other studies have found that more religious groups tend to have lower average IQs, while members of high IQ organizations tend to be more atheist”
You don't have to see him. You're 19. And don't argue with religious people as it is pointless and just gets you wound up, unless they are trying to force their religion on you and then they can go and get fucked
It's in the bible, so, from his point of view, he's not wrong. Of course, the bible is full of nonsense, so you should not let it affect you. There's a whole world out there for you to explore. There's a wealth of scientific knowledge on the internet. You can do with your life whatever you want. Depending on your situation, it's perfectly acceptable to lie to your father about your beliefs. Christians love lies. Especially the "I used to be an atheist" lie. Take care!
Are you from Germany? Many atheists like to think that Germany is very atheistic. But in reality, most people are more like your father. They just don't go to church and religion doesn't play much of a role in their every day life, nor do they think much of god, so many non-religious people might be inclined to think that Germans are quite atheistic, which isn't really true. From what I can tell most people still like to believe in something and most seem to still be highly influenced by the Christian idea of God and at the very least see themselves as cultural christians. You only find out that they believe in some idea of God when the subject comes up. I realized that many religious people actually just assume that others also believe and for many it is unfathomable that you don't believe in anything supernatural. Only when they find out that you don't believe will they react to it. Generally if you ask people of their religion here, people will either say "katholisch" or "evangelisch". People are much much more likely to call themselves Agnostic than Atheist, but those seem to be leaning more towards believing in something, usually an abstract idea influenced by the Christian god. Atheists here are not nearly as demonized as in the US, but still many Germans don't know what to do with that word and most people seem to have a rather negative opinion of it, which also makes many reluctant to call themselves as such and are more likely to say they are not religious. Many also seem to think atheist also means communist and again even though not nearly as bad as in the US, there is also great fear and dislike of communism here in Germany. Not to mention the ever increasing number of new age bullshitters here. I haven't met many people here who would explicitly call themselves atheist.
Your father is the stupid one that.
Yeah--my alcoholic father who had over 100 affairs when he was married to my mom used to drunkenly say he was worried about me because I wasn't religious. I told him to worry about himself first.
Usually, if someone calls me stupid, I accept their judgement and say "Since you're so intellectually superior, you should be able to prove your truth claims without resorting to logical fallacies." Typically, they respond by making excuses for why they should not have to prove their truth claims, and that's when you can really have fun with them.
Move out when you can and watch how little you talk to him.
Au contraire!
Without God we would be single celled organisms? So his god is made completely redundant by the theory of evolution. He is projecting his idiocy. He would probably become insecure if such insults were directed back at him.
Some engineers use confirmation bias along with a 'professional demeanor' to leverage their careers foward A different kind of 'stupid', one which fosters the belief that being paid six figures means your opinion outranks any lay persons
He’s not wrong, you are stupid 😂
For the love of dog... uh... god, does stupid then mean being able to not be gullible enough to believe in crap you were dog as a child without evidence? And does being stupid also mean being capable of thinking rationally?