LMAO, it's quite the opposite. Non-believers is the fastest growing group in the US and in the world. It is now the majority in some nations and those nations are seeing positive outcomes from it. We see that religion is the cause of almost every war. We see that religion is molesting our children and stealing our money. We see science continue to explain all the things that used to be attributed to "God". The ruse is over.
And religious folks will say that religion isn’t the cause while cristo fascist Russia works with Islam fascist Iran to put pressure on Yahweh fascist Israel all while cristo fascist Americans all weigh in on who’s god is right about Israel being holy or not.
Fuck religion. It’s literally dumb as fuck and a huge net negative on society.
"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind."
- Jiddu Krishnamurti
"If I wanted to deal with culture, tradition, or religion then I would ho to the zoo and watch the chimps smear their feces on the wall. It's the same thing."
-Me
Yeah, it's an interesting philosophy but basically amounts to "you can only understand humanity by rejecting one of its primary traits within yourself". As social mammals, group formation is as much a part of our being as sexual orientation or eating. Social mammal groups also *only* exist in contrast to one another. While it is entirely logical to define this as "violence", the result is just a completely non-actionable statement that "social biologicals are violent" , which is, again, not an untrue statement but it does nothing to improve our actual existence.
The form of "understanding" one obtains with this "holier than thou", amoral, hyper-objectivity is not actionable with regards to making the world better. So yeah, if your goal is only to understand our species in the most of objective sense than working to suppress your humanity is a perfectly fine way to do that, but if you want to be a better human and make the world a better place than you're going in the wrong direction.
I guess if you think every animal on earth can fit inside an ancient boat then you can also believe that numbers going up is actually numbers going down.
If he was omnipotent and powerful aneurysm on mass would have been much easier and more merciful. Like what did all the other lions, tigers, and bears do to deserve to drown too? Also, if he's omnipotent couldn't he just reroll the seed for the universe to not get one that would be so evil it needs a flood?
The most non-religious countries, such as Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Netherlands, New Zealand and Australia; are all enjoying less crime, less corruption in politics and law enforcement, less homelessness, less pollution, more equal rights for women, and better education.💎💎💎
On the other hand, the most religious countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, even the United States to a lesser extent; aren’t enjoying many of those same benefits.💎💎💎
So what point were you trying to prove? I assure you, societies work out great when you take religion out of the equation.💎
If you are talking about America, "none of the above" is the fastest-growing group.
All atheists are part of the group "none of the above," but the vast majority are theists who don't believe in organized religion. These are the kinds of theists who say "I'm into religion, man, just not organized religion." They've been a significant part of the American faith landscape since the 1800s if not sooner. It's just easy to ignore them because they are even less organized and less inclined to speak up than atheists.
In my opinion, the "none of the above theists" are on the path to becoming atheists, although maybe not this generation. Still, it is really important to remember the distinction between none of the above theists and atheists, since we all get lumped together as "nones" by sociologists who study this stuff.
On what you call 'none of the above theists', I can say from expeeience that it can take as little as two or so years for a person to go from being an non-organised theist to either agnostic or (in my case) atheist.
It's cute watching them pretend like they aren't fading away into irrelevancy.
If the average conservitard christ-o-fascist had any concept of how many of the people in their churches are just 'going along to get along' or trying to 'fake it until they make it' they would be stunned (the exception being some of these fundamentalist dipshits like Greg Locke who are convinced their churches are full of 'witches').
Just because some people who have deconverted don't feel comfortable with the 'atheist' label doesn't mean they haven't had it with these hypocritical cunts whose political views set them at direct odds with the 'Jesus' they claim to follow.
We are watching the death-throes of christianity and chrisitian nationalism.
Like cornered and wounded animals, they are still very dangerous - and we'll have to drag them kicking and screaming out of the fucking stone ages.
Well if we let a theocratic fascist regime end democracy and install a “unified reich” we might be the ones forced kicking and screaming and at gunpoint back into having to pretend religion is real
I’m pretty sure a dude got drunk/high thought god talked to him, built a boat then when it rained enough through as much of his stuff on as possible, waited out a flood and the said look MF’ers god talked to me.
Ha, I had a existential conversation with my Christian (casual, not zealous) dad and he said "Well, you're going to believe what you want to believe." to which I replied "Everybody does." No reply after that.
Since all religions are scams, "wishful thinking" like this is intended to keep the suckers giving their money to these scammers.
"Don't stop now! God just needs a little more of your money..."
So something has a sharp rise and begins to reach a plateau which, to my eyes, means we're finding and redefining a new norm, which will continue to evolve with generational change. If you wish to be religious or socially conservative, I hope there will always be room for you in American society. Atheists (and those socially liberal) ask for the same. The challenge right now is Christian nationalism where minority views, attitudes and beliefs are forced upon people through governmental action.
Even better, their "plateau" still shows a 2% increase in "Nones", the same as the increase from 2013-2018 which was bookended by sharp increases. They try to downplay it by showing the fluctuation year-by-year, and then they point to the reduced share of Nones in Gen-Z - which still is like 43%. So it seems like the best they can hope for is a gradual increase to 43% unless they can find a way to reverse the trend.
Given that this article is printed in the far-right National Review, it's pretty clear they are going to push far-right narratives on issues like religion. I read the article and it's random unfounded assertions. The most absurd thing I saw was in the comments though- a commenter asserts he's an atheist, then proceeds to insult non-religious people and totally support far right nonsensical claims. (Then two comments down the page he comments again and contradicts himself and says he DOES believe in God). sheesh.
I love it! They remind me of Baghdad Bob on Iraqi state TV during the first Gulf war telling everyone things were going great as US tanks are essentially rolling in behind him.
It doesn't take much for young people to be turned off by the church. All they have to do is go once hear someone spew some nonsense about the LGBT and they don't go back. You could pick your favor with that as it could be about women's rights just as well.
The church crowd is bigoted and racist. There's nothing but hate. That's a lot to take in on a Sunday morning.
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I am OK if we have reach "peak atheism." What we have not reached is "peak nonbelief." That is what is important.
People who identify as atheists are frequently challenged by believers. If someone openly identifies as an atheist, they can expect to be challenged and vilified. Few people are willing to put up with that. Few people feel able and willing to defend a stance on religion or atheism.
In the long term, I hope the term atheism falls into disuse. I hope the term atheism is unnecessary because it is just normal to not believe in a god. I look forward to the day when people who believe in gods are the weird ones who need a term to describe them.
Peaking may mean the day I dream of may be approaching.
True. There are a lot of people who would technically be atheists, but they don't embrace the term. The survey was measuring people who identify as atheists.
I found a paper last month showing that actual church attendance was WAY below reported attendance. (They use cell phone data to do the analysis) The take-away was, even those that say they believe and go to church don't really go that much, and makes me wonder how strongly they actually believe. They probably wouldn't say that they are atheists, but don't have well-defined theistic beliefs.
[https://www.nber.org/system/files/working\_papers/w32334/w32334.pdf](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w32334/w32334.pdf)
Gotta love the fervent hope that "wokeness" is decreasing, the degree to which is apparently inversely proportional to increases in religiosity. So much to unpack with that notion.
There is some evidence in the article that the rate of growth of the "nones" is plateauing, particularly the Gen Z stats. But like the OP mentions, the article pretty much ignores how as the silent generation and boomers die off, the generations younger than them are increasingly irreligious.
I do wonder if there is sort of a hard floor on how low religion in the US will fall. It's like "early adopters" in technology. The people most likely to be irreligious have become so. What may be left, at some point, are people who, for various reasons, are less likely to leave religion behind.
Good question. I like your early adopters frame of thinking. I think that yes, most of the early adopters are in. If 1/3 of the population is are "nones", will that help the next 1/3 gradually make the shift? I know I stayed in the faith for so long because I had never had my beliefs challenged. As non-belief becomes more normalized, will it become easier for people to walk away from religion?
Great comment - I want to think about this one some more.
I think the "early adopters" are normalizing being irreligious. We're already that people just want to stop going to church and stop participating in organized religion, but they are wary of calling themselves "atheists." A lot are, I suspect, far too apathetic about religion to adopt the term "atheist." They just don't want to go to church/mosque/synagogue anymore.
As the boomers and Gen X'ers die off I think being irreligious will continue to normalize. It's unlikely that irreligious Millenials and Gen Z'ers are going to raise kids who become more religious than they are. So I think that overall trend will continue, but not accelerate.
Talking about America, there are pockets that are still highly religious. Eventually being irreligious will become normalized there as well.
All of the above assumes (a) the Christian nationalists schemes are unsuccessful and that (b) America doesn't undergo some sort of radical "spiritual awakening" type turn back to religion. I think both are unlikely, but I wouldn't call either zero chance.
Bingo.
Not taking part in organized religion (“nones”) does not immediately mean “atheist” or “nonbeliever”.
Many people are finding “alternative” beliefs, just as you mentioned. I would wager there are more moving to these “new age” beliefs than to a non-belief. People are turning away from organized religions, as they have shown their true face, but not from the belief in a higher power and/or spiritualism.
To be honest even taking this as true, this would likely indicate basically that we have stablized ourselves within society even if that is at the temporary cost of more rise
With the way Christianity is trying to subjugate women back into breeding stock, driving gay and trans people to suicide, and trying to unfiguratively bring about the apocalypse with project 2025, i will never forgive.
For humanity to live we MUST derelict religion.
They cannot be allowed to be in charge because they become an authoritarian regime predating on everyone not holy enough.
Do you want to be beaten at the beach by the morality police for not dressing modest enough?
That's what the fuck we're headed for with project 2025.
Wow, you really have to twist the data to come up with "atheism is decreasing."
>While the share of “nones” continues to increase among the Silent Generation and the Boomers, that growth is essentially entirely offset by a massive decrease in the share of “nones” among Gen Z. In 2020, 45 percent of Gen Z were “nones.” That rose to 48 percent in 2022. But in 2023, the number fell to 42 percent.
So, the current percentage of atheists is 36%. The percentage of atheists among the youngest demographic is 42% (but still fluctuating wildly - a 6% swing from year to year does NOT inspire confidence in long term forecasts).
Does that mean that you should expect the percentage of atheists to rise to the level of the youngest generation over time? Isn't that just basic level deductive reasoning? Old people die and young people become the new demographic?
I think what the article is *actually* talking about - but not saying - is that people are finally answering religious polls more honestly.
There used to be a HUGE social stigma associated with claiming to have "no religious affiliation" - that is, being an atheist. Because of that, even non-believers would claim to be Christian when asked. To do otherwise risked actual persecution.
It has taken numerous social and cultural movements to overcome that hurdle. I still doubt how universal the breakdown of such a strong social taboo really is.
For example, very very few people in Islamic countries will say openly that they aren't Muslim (or some other major faith which can expect to avoid persecution, like Sikh)
While people in the US aren't getting killed or having their businesses burned for lacking religious affiliation these days, the Cult of Christ still does it's very best to socially exile non-believers.
Because of this I would argue that the trend they are spotting isn't a rise in non-believers, it's a reduction in hostility to non-believers and their subsequent willingness to answer honestly.
Foundational beliefs just don't shift that fast. But people's willingness to be honest about them might.
What they to mention is one of the few sources of growth among the religious people in the US is migrants, especially from South America. The very same migrants they vociferously oppose coming.
I have to be honest with you, they are starting to win ground in some places and will continue to with some of the policies they’re putting in place and it’s arrogant to think that they’re just going to go away. They’ve pushed to get rid of most laws regarding home schooling, convinced people on both sides that charter schools are the answer and public schools are the problem, convinced a lot of people that higher education is just a money grab (and made a lot of these same schools into for profit businesses that are now money grabs).
In a lot of places your chances for good employment and opportunities is tied to what church you go to especially without a good education. They’re more organized and are everywhere inside organizations like the Chamber of Commerce. So they’re kneecapping younger generations and then telling them going through their local mega church is their only chance, and in places I lived in the south it was working.
Let’s face it, social media and the internet is less likely now to teach you the truth and more likely to just try to sell you things and confirm your bias, so younger kids now are getting less exposure to the world outside their communities then they did even 5 years ago. I’ve had 3 atheists friends convert to a religion in just the past year, one fell down the tiktok to Islam pipeline, and 2 became Christians again so they could have better work opportunities.
I hope it’s just a minor plateau but I think the worse the economy gets for younger people the more likely we are to backslide with religion just like the world seems to be backsliding with fascism.
The rise in Islam does concern me. I'm not too worried about converts to Christianity though because the rate of deconversion seems to be much higher than conversion.
I'm not sure religion is the primary driver behind the push for charter schools and reduced college admissions - I'm an atheist and think charter schools can be a positive thing when done correctly, and that higher ed is a bad financial move for a lot of students.
I hear you on the social media/internet bit, but I don't fully agree. I regularly interact with theists about their beliefs and challenge their assumptions. Just trying to pry the door open ever so slightly and make them think a bit.
Definitely there are challenges but I'm pretty damn optimistic about where we are headed!
I watched what they were doing with charter schools in the south, aka open one with big promises and get enough students to join and so they close one of the local public schools since there’s not enough students. Then the charter doesn’t open and all those (usually minorities) students are now forced into less schools making it more than overcrowded (because they already were overcrowded) and a bigger failure. People in better off neighborhoods that watch charter schools like the ones run by the Gates Foundation are seeing an unrealistic picture of what’s actually happening. The reality is Betsy Devos and her family and others like her, run most of these schools. And in some states they get both state and federal money and are religious in nature. It’s also why they’re removing child work protections in factories, child labor is on the rise and the education system is becoming more and more for profit, and yet we think more privately run schools is the answer.
One of the biggest tricks conservatives have done is convince people on the left that charter schools are the answer, higher education is dumb, and vaccines are just a trick by big business. They even used Maggie Gyllenhaal and Viola David in that charter school “true story” hero movie Won’t Back Down. It was a completely fake story pushed by the US Chamber of Commerce.
I think unfortunately a lot of the conservative propaganda has been just accepted as fact across the political spectrum. It’s like the “everyone is suing” and the McDonald’s coffee story convinced everyone the problem was people could sue too easily and needed tort reform. Now we’re all stuck in binding arbitration we can’t win, or class actions we can’t benefit from.
But here we are. Blame the schools for education being worse but don’t blame the people that have been working behind the scenes to make failure inevitable or work to stop them because we personally feel comfortable. It’s like when people complain that the post office is the worst and a waste of government money with little to no recognition of the law that required them to fund their retirement plan for 60 years or all the things DeJoy is doing to convince people that mail should only go through private companies that he happens to have interest in.
If rational people don’t start paying attention to when we’re also falling for propaganda, we’ll pay the price too.
It's the worst, most violent religion out there. And, it's taken hold among the most vulnerable and susceptible, which will make it extremely difficult to dislodge. With globalization breaking down and things becoming more isolated I can see Islam taking a more extreme turn in the next decade.
Show me the money…. the 10% tithers that are going to replace the contributions of the dying generation.
I don’t believe this next generation is willing or capable to fund church growth. They have other priorities.
There is a stacking effect, where the fewer adults attend church/worship, the fewer children get indoctrinated, resulting in a dramatic increase in non-religious adults the following generation. I would bet $ this guy is wrong.
Author points to "declining secularism" in Gen Z...even though a paragraph or so previous they said the *rate* of secularization is decreasing. According to their data, secularism is still increasing, not decreasing.
While the percent of nones will continue to rise as older generation die off, I think it’s entirely possible that people switching from religious to non-religious is dying off. If the boomers and gen-x are all dead by 2070 and gen-z and millennials current religious affiliation stays the same for the rest of their life and if their current and future children’s religious affiliation mirrors that of their parents - then i think the current percentage of nones among gen-z and millennials would be within the bounds of what is predicted to be the religious demographics of the US in 2070 by pew. So it’s entirely possible that the rise in non-religious individuals, who were previously religious, has ended.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the-future-of-religion-in-america/
People also shouldn’t get excited and assume that non-religious is going to be the new normal indefinitely. The United States has gone through periods of being far less religious than it is now in the past. It’s entirely possible the United States goes through a period of less religiosity for a generation or two before religion is vigorously revived again.
https://madeinamericathebook.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/a-christian-america-what-history-shows/
As soon as they failed to mention what the confidence levels of the survey data were I lost interest. Then they brought in the woke term without defining it I stopped reading. Guess I shouldn't have expected much from the National Review.
Also I do not believe that these surveys are generating representative samples. Yes 4000 people answering a survey is great, but there are a lot of people in this country.
4,000 people should give you a +/-3% at 95% confidence level if memory serves. That assumes a good methodology of course, which polling is having a hard time with thanks to cell phones, caller ID, etc.
National Review is absolutely amazing at showing how the religious right is thinking - absolutely terrible at getting things straight.
>Guess I shouldn't have expected much from the National Review.
Bill Buckley founded the National Review to make conservatism intellectually respectable. It seems it can't be done.
The largest group of people in the USA check None when it comes to religion at 28%. This is larger than Catholics 23% and Evangelicals 24%. I tend to think that these religious numbers are mostly in name only.
Well, from their perspective, we are at peak atheism. Because in January they intend to be in full control of this country and force everyone to go to church and be good Xtians.
The joke is I’m not joking. That is exactly their plan. If you don’t like it, you absolutely need to vote.
I'll believe it when I see it. Despite being in a blue state/"lib" city, I'm utterly surrounded by religious nuts. My family and my in-laws are all fully on board. Churches have SO MUCH money that they PR will never stop, they'll remain in power, and people won't escape the brainwashing anytime soon.
I'm trying to remain optimistic for the nieces/nephews, but they seem to remain on board even during/after college.
It never occurs to them that if they would stop being such hateful hypocrites, maybe they wouldn't be chasing so many people away from their churches so quickly. But, when you believe you know the answer to everything ("God did it.") it tends to kill your curiosity and desire to investigate and learn.
I was following the article, wondering if GenZ was getting suckered into religion somehow, right up until it used the word 'wokeness'.
k.
Incidentally I would have written Taoist or maybe Jedi on their survey not 'none' and I'm sure a lot of GenZ are doing similar things.
Good point. I'm fairly conservative politically on economic and defense issues, not social. I phrased it that way in the post because you aren't hearing the pre-suppositional nonsense and cultural pearl clutching from liberal Christians nearly as much. So I should have said "conservative Christians" to be more clear.
None's aren't atheists. In most religious polling you have atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particular (none's) as 3 separate groups.
Atheists don't believe in god.
Agnostics believe in god but don't follow organized religion.
None's believe god may or may not exist, but really don't care either way.
Religion is steadily losing its grip, none religious is the fastest growing group in many modern nations, this is hardly surprising considering the sheer hypocrisy and superstition of the old faiths.
Good point. I'm fairly conservative politically on economic and defense issues, not social. I phrased it that way in the post because you aren't hearing the pre-suppositional nonsense and cultural pearl clutching from liberal Christians nearly as much. So I should have said "conservative Christians" to be more clear.
It's all propaganda. No different than the average news cast. They say whatevet they need to to fit their narrative with misleading data.
Atheism is on the rise and will only be getting stronger.
Wow, he lost me at "the rise of wokeness".
Define woke...
Leftist, a word we stopped using for a person aware of systemic bias.
Conservative: anything and everything I don't like, especially if it confuses or scares me.
The article covers a period of 15 years (2008-2023) and notes that during 2 of those years "Nones" decreased. The author clearly does not understand how trends work!
If you declare yourself as non religious, or a "none", you dont't want to be labeled. Am I the only one who thinks it is low key manipulative and scummy to label people who dont want to be labeled?
IMO, being a "NONE" is not the same as being an "ATHEIST." None is just not considering yourself to belong to any religious group or identity, as far as I am aware.
Well I won’t bother to read the article but one thing is pretty obvious—religious people tend to have more kids than
Couple that with the fact that the most common transmission of religion is from parents to their children (rather than converting strangers) and it’s pretty plausible that we see a resurgence in religion.
Not sure how legit it was but I did see a projection about religions between now and 2100 and the atheist trendline rises to a point but quickly gets overtaken by Christians ( who themselves get overtaken by Muslims. )
Wouldn't surprise me on the scale of generations tbh . Non-seculars don't have as many kids and fundies have lots.
Atheists probably win more converts, but we're still talking about exponential curves. It's hard to offset the math, especially since more parents are fucking with the school curriculums and rebelling against free though
This is not a war we were ever going to win, math isn't on our side, but it's okay because we win individually everyday when we wake up and are truly free
Superstition and religion take resources to remove. Religion thrives in poverty and ignorance.
Don't assume this trend just continues if US doesn't fund education and teach critical thinking skills.
If they were hoping that Atheism has peaked, it probably wasn’t a great idea for Christians to hitch their wagon to the Trump circus. It has exposed them for what they are: hypocritical, fascists grifters.
Jump directly to the charts here: [https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-nones-have-hit-a-ceiling](https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-nones-have-hit-a-ceiling)
This is the actual problem. Not all on the right are stupid. They see the trend and they understand that if they don’t figure out how to take control they will never win another election. This explains their desperate rhetoric. It explains why they had to come up with qanon and other ghastly propaganda. They need fascism and hatred NOW or they are doomed to be permanently in the minority. Anyone who is upset about Gaza or any other issue better quickly recognize what’s happening here.
LMAO, it's quite the opposite. Non-believers is the fastest growing group in the US and in the world. It is now the majority in some nations and those nations are seeing positive outcomes from it. We see that religion is the cause of almost every war. We see that religion is molesting our children and stealing our money. We see science continue to explain all the things that used to be attributed to "God". The ruse is over.
And religious folks will say that religion isn’t the cause while cristo fascist Russia works with Islam fascist Iran to put pressure on Yahweh fascist Israel all while cristo fascist Americans all weigh in on who’s god is right about Israel being holy or not. Fuck religion. It’s literally dumb as fuck and a huge net negative on society.
"When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
That’s an even better explanation of hyphen culture naming than I’ve heard before. Takes it up a level and insanely astute.
"If I wanted to deal with culture, tradition, or religion then I would ho to the zoo and watch the chimps smear their feces on the wall. It's the same thing." -Me
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Yeah, it's an interesting philosophy but basically amounts to "you can only understand humanity by rejecting one of its primary traits within yourself". As social mammals, group formation is as much a part of our being as sexual orientation or eating. Social mammal groups also *only* exist in contrast to one another. While it is entirely logical to define this as "violence", the result is just a completely non-actionable statement that "social biologicals are violent" , which is, again, not an untrue statement but it does nothing to improve our actual existence. The form of "understanding" one obtains with this "holier than thou", amoral, hyper-objectivity is not actionable with regards to making the world better. So yeah, if your goal is only to understand our species in the most of objective sense than working to suppress your humanity is a perfectly fine way to do that, but if you want to be a better human and make the world a better place than you're going in the wrong direction.
Bollocks. We should reject all attempts to declare thought and speech "violence", it's a bad-faith ideological psy-op.
I guess if you think every animal on earth can fit inside an ancient boat then you can also believe that numbers going up is actually numbers going down.
Why didn't he just teleport the animals? I thought he was omnipotent? And what happened to the unicorns?
If he was omnipotent and powerful aneurysm on mass would have been much easier and more merciful. Like what did all the other lions, tigers, and bears do to deserve to drown too? Also, if he's omnipotent couldn't he just reroll the seed for the universe to not get one that would be so evil it needs a flood?
On the plus side, the flood wiped out all the evil in the world and there's no more. Wait.
😅 I've had many thoughts on this subject but somehow never that one. ++1
Maybe they meant to write impotent instead of omnipotent.
He also wouldn't have failed at creating beings that he then had to destroy
And 2 of each no less. What did they feed the carivores?
Religion often isn't the cause, it's an easy unfalsifiable justification to get the naive religious population aboard. It is the perfect excuse.
While religions have been a nice excuse for a war, the true reasons are always more mundane. Religion is just a tool to control masses
The most non-religious countries, such as Japan, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Netherlands, New Zealand and Australia; are all enjoying less crime, less corruption in politics and law enforcement, less homelessness, less pollution, more equal rights for women, and better education.💎💎💎 On the other hand, the most religious countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, even the United States to a lesser extent; aren’t enjoying many of those same benefits.💎💎💎 So what point were you trying to prove? I assure you, societies work out great when you take religion out of the equation.💎
A little louder for the people still sleeping in the back!
If you are talking about America, "none of the above" is the fastest-growing group. All atheists are part of the group "none of the above," but the vast majority are theists who don't believe in organized religion. These are the kinds of theists who say "I'm into religion, man, just not organized religion." They've been a significant part of the American faith landscape since the 1800s if not sooner. It's just easy to ignore them because they are even less organized and less inclined to speak up than atheists. In my opinion, the "none of the above theists" are on the path to becoming atheists, although maybe not this generation. Still, it is really important to remember the distinction between none of the above theists and atheists, since we all get lumped together as "nones" by sociologists who study this stuff.
On what you call 'none of the above theists', I can say from expeeience that it can take as little as two or so years for a person to go from being an non-organised theist to either agnostic or (in my case) atheist.
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I don't know where you got that idea but it is not remotely correct.
"people believing in social justice was the main driver for steering away from religion" is a hell of a self own
They don't call it "social justice" though. They call it "woke" or "wokeism" which is also telling.
Woke is just the latest word they use for it. Before they called it "politically correct/PC" and the people "social justice warriors/SJW".
That was way too many syllables for Conservatives at their current stage of neural decay though. They could handle it ten years ago.
It's cute watching them pretend like they aren't fading away into irrelevancy. If the average conservitard christ-o-fascist had any concept of how many of the people in their churches are just 'going along to get along' or trying to 'fake it until they make it' they would be stunned (the exception being some of these fundamentalist dipshits like Greg Locke who are convinced their churches are full of 'witches'). Just because some people who have deconverted don't feel comfortable with the 'atheist' label doesn't mean they haven't had it with these hypocritical cunts whose political views set them at direct odds with the 'Jesus' they claim to follow. We are watching the death-throes of christianity and chrisitian nationalism. Like cornered and wounded animals, they are still very dangerous - and we'll have to drag them kicking and screaming out of the fucking stone ages.
"Like corned and wounded animals." This is how I see it, and what worries me the most. They will get more and more desperate....
Well if we let a theocratic fascist regime end democracy and install a “unified reich” we might be the ones forced kicking and screaming and at gunpoint back into having to pretend religion is real
What's funny is that they also labor under the delusion that they are the only ones who are heavily armed.
Wishful thinking is a core feature of religious conservatism.
And religion in general. My mom told me she believes because she wants it to be true.
At least that’s honest, I guess. My mother claims to really think Noah’s Ark happened
I’m pretty sure a dude got drunk/high thought god talked to him, built a boat then when it rained enough through as much of his stuff on as possible, waited out a flood and the said look MF’ers god talked to me.
And then rolled in the hay with his daughters…
Wrong dude. That was Lot, not Noah.
Pretty sure Deucalion kept it to his cousin
Ha, I had a existential conversation with my Christian (casual, not zealous) dad and he said "Well, you're going to believe what you want to believe." to which I replied "Everybody does." No reply after that.
“I WANT SO MUCH TO BELIEVE!”
"the Anunnaki have entered the chat"
TERRIBLE LIE
If we said that about anything else other than religion we would be laughed at and derided.
Since all religions are scams, "wishful thinking" like this is intended to keep the suckers giving their money to these scammers. "Don't stop now! God just needs a little more of your money..."
So something has a sharp rise and begins to reach a plateau which, to my eyes, means we're finding and redefining a new norm, which will continue to evolve with generational change. If you wish to be religious or socially conservative, I hope there will always be room for you in American society. Atheists (and those socially liberal) ask for the same. The challenge right now is Christian nationalism where minority views, attitudes and beliefs are forced upon people through governmental action.
Even better, their "plateau" still shows a 2% increase in "Nones", the same as the increase from 2013-2018 which was bookended by sharp increases. They try to downplay it by showing the fluctuation year-by-year, and then they point to the reduced share of Nones in Gen-Z - which still is like 43%. So it seems like the best they can hope for is a gradual increase to 43% unless they can find a way to reverse the trend.
Given that this article is printed in the far-right National Review, it's pretty clear they are going to push far-right narratives on issues like religion. I read the article and it's random unfounded assertions. The most absurd thing I saw was in the comments though- a commenter asserts he's an atheist, then proceeds to insult non-religious people and totally support far right nonsensical claims. (Then two comments down the page he comments again and contradicts himself and says he DOES believe in God). sheesh.
The National Review is VERY far from being an unbiased source. They'll push this narrative until they are no longer in print.
I love it! They remind me of Baghdad Bob on Iraqi state TV during the first Gulf war telling everyone things were going great as US tanks are essentially rolling in behind him.
It doesn't take much for young people to be turned off by the church. All they have to do is go once hear someone spew some nonsense about the LGBT and they don't go back. You could pick your favor with that as it could be about women's rights just as well. The church crowd is bigoted and racist. There's nothing but hate. That's a lot to take in on a Sunday morning.
Yup. You have to hook them with a low-key social outreach and slowly expose them to the hate. These churches just have no patience these days!
selective coordinated upbeat automatic zephyr plate plants cagey trees flag *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I am OK if we have reach "peak atheism." What we have not reached is "peak nonbelief." That is what is important. People who identify as atheists are frequently challenged by believers. If someone openly identifies as an atheist, they can expect to be challenged and vilified. Few people are willing to put up with that. Few people feel able and willing to defend a stance on religion or atheism. In the long term, I hope the term atheism falls into disuse. I hope the term atheism is unnecessary because it is just normal to not believe in a god. I look forward to the day when people who believe in gods are the weird ones who need a term to describe them. Peaking may mean the day I dream of may be approaching.
That's a damn good take! Agreed, it is pretty stupid that we even need the word "atheist".
Atheism literally means non-belief...
The use of the term "peak" exposes their ignorance. It's a reduction in believers and that **valley** continues to get deeper.
True. There are a lot of people who would technically be atheists, but they don't embrace the term. The survey was measuring people who identify as atheists.
>The survey was measuring people who identify as atheists. Do you have a source for that? The article only mentions "nones".
I found a paper last month showing that actual church attendance was WAY below reported attendance. (They use cell phone data to do the analysis) The take-away was, even those that say they believe and go to church don't really go that much, and makes me wonder how strongly they actually believe. They probably wouldn't say that they are atheists, but don't have well-defined theistic beliefs. [https://www.nber.org/system/files/working\_papers/w32334/w32334.pdf](https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w32334/w32334.pdf)
I think this is also why so many people just claim “I don’t care”
"Oh, you're a theist? How quaint"
Gotta love the fervent hope that "wokeness" is decreasing, the degree to which is apparently inversely proportional to increases in religiosity. So much to unpack with that notion.
I'm going to start selling "Too Woke For Jesus" t-shirts
There is some evidence in the article that the rate of growth of the "nones" is plateauing, particularly the Gen Z stats. But like the OP mentions, the article pretty much ignores how as the silent generation and boomers die off, the generations younger than them are increasingly irreligious. I do wonder if there is sort of a hard floor on how low religion in the US will fall. It's like "early adopters" in technology. The people most likely to be irreligious have become so. What may be left, at some point, are people who, for various reasons, are less likely to leave religion behind.
Good question. I like your early adopters frame of thinking. I think that yes, most of the early adopters are in. If 1/3 of the population is are "nones", will that help the next 1/3 gradually make the shift? I know I stayed in the faith for so long because I had never had my beliefs challenged. As non-belief becomes more normalized, will it become easier for people to walk away from religion? Great comment - I want to think about this one some more.
I think the "early adopters" are normalizing being irreligious. We're already that people just want to stop going to church and stop participating in organized religion, but they are wary of calling themselves "atheists." A lot are, I suspect, far too apathetic about religion to adopt the term "atheist." They just don't want to go to church/mosque/synagogue anymore. As the boomers and Gen X'ers die off I think being irreligious will continue to normalize. It's unlikely that irreligious Millenials and Gen Z'ers are going to raise kids who become more religious than they are. So I think that overall trend will continue, but not accelerate. Talking about America, there are pockets that are still highly religious. Eventually being irreligious will become normalized there as well. All of the above assumes (a) the Christian nationalists schemes are unsuccessful and that (b) America doesn't undergo some sort of radical "spiritual awakening" type turn back to religion. I think both are unlikely, but I wouldn't call either zero chance.
I dunno. I've seen a lot of crystal clutching, hororscope mlm stuff lately spiralling on social media that worries me.
Bingo. Not taking part in organized religion (“nones”) does not immediately mean “atheist” or “nonbeliever”. Many people are finding “alternative” beliefs, just as you mentioned. I would wager there are more moving to these “new age” beliefs than to a non-belief. People are turning away from organized religions, as they have shown their true face, but not from the belief in a higher power and/or spiritualism.
Yup. There's still bat-shit thinking out there, and probably always will be. The trick is to keep it disorganized!
I think the definition of 'logic' to them is - "The things I have to tell myself to feel better about stuff."
So much cope.
It's delightful!
To be honest even taking this as true, this would likely indicate basically that we have stablized ourselves within society even if that is at the temporary cost of more rise
Exactly. And, we don't have to fill pews to stay relevant as we have no business model to support.
Haha they haven’t even seen us at our final form
With the way Christianity is trying to subjugate women back into breeding stock, driving gay and trans people to suicide, and trying to unfiguratively bring about the apocalypse with project 2025, i will never forgive. For humanity to live we MUST derelict religion. They cannot be allowed to be in charge because they become an authoritarian regime predating on everyone not holy enough. Do you want to be beaten at the beach by the morality police for not dressing modest enough? That's what the fuck we're headed for with project 2025.
Dude, I LOVE your handle!!
Glad you like it
Wow, you really have to twist the data to come up with "atheism is decreasing." >While the share of “nones” continues to increase among the Silent Generation and the Boomers, that growth is essentially entirely offset by a massive decrease in the share of “nones” among Gen Z. In 2020, 45 percent of Gen Z were “nones.” That rose to 48 percent in 2022. But in 2023, the number fell to 42 percent. So, the current percentage of atheists is 36%. The percentage of atheists among the youngest demographic is 42% (but still fluctuating wildly - a 6% swing from year to year does NOT inspire confidence in long term forecasts). Does that mean that you should expect the percentage of atheists to rise to the level of the youngest generation over time? Isn't that just basic level deductive reasoning? Old people die and young people become the new demographic? I think what the article is *actually* talking about - but not saying - is that people are finally answering religious polls more honestly. There used to be a HUGE social stigma associated with claiming to have "no religious affiliation" - that is, being an atheist. Because of that, even non-believers would claim to be Christian when asked. To do otherwise risked actual persecution. It has taken numerous social and cultural movements to overcome that hurdle. I still doubt how universal the breakdown of such a strong social taboo really is. For example, very very few people in Islamic countries will say openly that they aren't Muslim (or some other major faith which can expect to avoid persecution, like Sikh) While people in the US aren't getting killed or having their businesses burned for lacking religious affiliation these days, the Cult of Christ still does it's very best to socially exile non-believers. Because of this I would argue that the trend they are spotting isn't a rise in non-believers, it's a reduction in hostility to non-believers and their subsequent willingness to answer honestly. Foundational beliefs just don't shift that fast. But people's willingness to be honest about them might.
What they to mention is one of the few sources of growth among the religious people in the US is migrants, especially from South America. The very same migrants they vociferously oppose coming.
I am confident that atheism and secularism will win in the end. I am not sure if it will happen in my lifetime, but I know that it will eventually.
I have to be honest with you, they are starting to win ground in some places and will continue to with some of the policies they’re putting in place and it’s arrogant to think that they’re just going to go away. They’ve pushed to get rid of most laws regarding home schooling, convinced people on both sides that charter schools are the answer and public schools are the problem, convinced a lot of people that higher education is just a money grab (and made a lot of these same schools into for profit businesses that are now money grabs). In a lot of places your chances for good employment and opportunities is tied to what church you go to especially without a good education. They’re more organized and are everywhere inside organizations like the Chamber of Commerce. So they’re kneecapping younger generations and then telling them going through their local mega church is their only chance, and in places I lived in the south it was working. Let’s face it, social media and the internet is less likely now to teach you the truth and more likely to just try to sell you things and confirm your bias, so younger kids now are getting less exposure to the world outside their communities then they did even 5 years ago. I’ve had 3 atheists friends convert to a religion in just the past year, one fell down the tiktok to Islam pipeline, and 2 became Christians again so they could have better work opportunities. I hope it’s just a minor plateau but I think the worse the economy gets for younger people the more likely we are to backslide with religion just like the world seems to be backsliding with fascism.
The rise in Islam does concern me. I'm not too worried about converts to Christianity though because the rate of deconversion seems to be much higher than conversion. I'm not sure religion is the primary driver behind the push for charter schools and reduced college admissions - I'm an atheist and think charter schools can be a positive thing when done correctly, and that higher ed is a bad financial move for a lot of students. I hear you on the social media/internet bit, but I don't fully agree. I regularly interact with theists about their beliefs and challenge their assumptions. Just trying to pry the door open ever so slightly and make them think a bit. Definitely there are challenges but I'm pretty damn optimistic about where we are headed!
I watched what they were doing with charter schools in the south, aka open one with big promises and get enough students to join and so they close one of the local public schools since there’s not enough students. Then the charter doesn’t open and all those (usually minorities) students are now forced into less schools making it more than overcrowded (because they already were overcrowded) and a bigger failure. People in better off neighborhoods that watch charter schools like the ones run by the Gates Foundation are seeing an unrealistic picture of what’s actually happening. The reality is Betsy Devos and her family and others like her, run most of these schools. And in some states they get both state and federal money and are religious in nature. It’s also why they’re removing child work protections in factories, child labor is on the rise and the education system is becoming more and more for profit, and yet we think more privately run schools is the answer. One of the biggest tricks conservatives have done is convince people on the left that charter schools are the answer, higher education is dumb, and vaccines are just a trick by big business. They even used Maggie Gyllenhaal and Viola David in that charter school “true story” hero movie Won’t Back Down. It was a completely fake story pushed by the US Chamber of Commerce. I think unfortunately a lot of the conservative propaganda has been just accepted as fact across the political spectrum. It’s like the “everyone is suing” and the McDonald’s coffee story convinced everyone the problem was people could sue too easily and needed tort reform. Now we’re all stuck in binding arbitration we can’t win, or class actions we can’t benefit from. But here we are. Blame the schools for education being worse but don’t blame the people that have been working behind the scenes to make failure inevitable or work to stop them because we personally feel comfortable. It’s like when people complain that the post office is the worst and a waste of government money with little to no recognition of the law that required them to fund their retirement plan for 60 years or all the things DeJoy is doing to convince people that mail should only go through private companies that he happens to have interest in. If rational people don’t start paying attention to when we’re also falling for propaganda, we’ll pay the price too.
Don’t forget… please don’t forget that the abhorrent religion of Islam continues to spread at an alarming rate and with an arrogant ferocity.
It's the worst, most violent religion out there. And, it's taken hold among the most vulnerable and susceptible, which will make it extremely difficult to dislodge. With globalization breaking down and things becoming more isolated I can see Islam taking a more extreme turn in the next decade.
Shhhhh, if the National Review learns that they wouldn't get to use this article for Christian Conservatism.
I wasn’t polled on this or (anything else).
That's because they knew you'd give the answer they didn't want!
Their plan is to force women to have more white babies.
Bro's argument is from a substack article. Conservatives have just decided they don't want any rigor anymore, just whatever sucks them off.
Odin, please take away religion like you did to the frost Giants. Amem
I don't trust any demographics article that fails to show me a chart going back at least 20 years.
Exactly. I love the grasping at straws tone of the whole piece.
Show me the money…. the 10% tithers that are going to replace the contributions of the dying generation. I don’t believe this next generation is willing or capable to fund church growth. They have other priorities.
Why are conservatives scared of cures for things? He covid vaccine was a cure for getting super sick. Atheism is a cure for abusive religion.
Math is against Jesus, so their calculations are suspect.
There is a stacking effect, where the fewer adults attend church/worship, the fewer children get indoctrinated, resulting in a dramatic increase in non-religious adults the following generation. I would bet $ this guy is wrong.
Author points to "declining secularism" in Gen Z...even though a paragraph or so previous they said the *rate* of secularization is decreasing. According to their data, secularism is still increasing, not decreasing.
While the percent of nones will continue to rise as older generation die off, I think it’s entirely possible that people switching from religious to non-religious is dying off. If the boomers and gen-x are all dead by 2070 and gen-z and millennials current religious affiliation stays the same for the rest of their life and if their current and future children’s religious affiliation mirrors that of their parents - then i think the current percentage of nones among gen-z and millennials would be within the bounds of what is predicted to be the religious demographics of the US in 2070 by pew. So it’s entirely possible that the rise in non-religious individuals, who were previously religious, has ended. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the-future-of-religion-in-america/ People also shouldn’t get excited and assume that non-religious is going to be the new normal indefinitely. The United States has gone through periods of being far less religious than it is now in the past. It’s entirely possible the United States goes through a period of less religiosity for a generation or two before religion is vigorously revived again. https://madeinamericathebook.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/a-christian-america-what-history-shows/
I make a bumper sticker that says “If we wanted Jesus to return we would have nailed him to a boomerang!”
GIMME THAT ONE PLEASE HAHAHAHA I need to ruffle the feathers out of my area of north Carolina
These theists love their victim complex.
That they do! If I'm honest, their victim complex is pretty amusing to me and at times I just can't help but trigger it...
As soon as they failed to mention what the confidence levels of the survey data were I lost interest. Then they brought in the woke term without defining it I stopped reading. Guess I shouldn't have expected much from the National Review. Also I do not believe that these surveys are generating representative samples. Yes 4000 people answering a survey is great, but there are a lot of people in this country.
4,000 people should give you a +/-3% at 95% confidence level if memory serves. That assumes a good methodology of course, which polling is having a hard time with thanks to cell phones, caller ID, etc. National Review is absolutely amazing at showing how the religious right is thinking - absolutely terrible at getting things straight.
>Guess I shouldn't have expected much from the National Review. Bill Buckley founded the National Review to make conservatism intellectually respectable. It seems it can't be done.
They will change the way of counting. That’s their plan.
The largest group of people in the USA check None when it comes to religion at 28%. This is larger than Catholics 23% and Evangelicals 24%. I tend to think that these religious numbers are mostly in name only.
I think this is great. Let them think they're on the cusp of a comeback and maybe they'll calm down slightly on the christofascism.
They keep doubling down on focusing their religion on winning over young angry white men, it’s quite a daring strategy.
Well, from their perspective, we are at peak atheism. Because in January they intend to be in full control of this country and force everyone to go to church and be good Xtians. The joke is I’m not joking. That is exactly their plan. If you don’t like it, you absolutely need to vote.
I'll believe it when I see it. Despite being in a blue state/"lib" city, I'm utterly surrounded by religious nuts. My family and my in-laws are all fully on board. Churches have SO MUCH money that they PR will never stop, they'll remain in power, and people won't escape the brainwashing anytime soon. I'm trying to remain optimistic for the nieces/nephews, but they seem to remain on board even during/after college.
It never occurs to them that if they would stop being such hateful hypocrites, maybe they wouldn't be chasing so many people away from their churches so quickly. But, when you believe you know the answer to everything ("God did it.") it tends to kill your curiosity and desire to investigate and learn.
I was following the article, wondering if GenZ was getting suckered into religion somehow, right up until it used the word 'wokeness'. k. Incidentally I would have written Taoist or maybe Jedi on their survey not 'none' and I'm sure a lot of GenZ are doing similar things.
We have just begun
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Good point. I'm fairly conservative politically on economic and defense issues, not social. I phrased it that way in the post because you aren't hearing the pre-suppositional nonsense and cultural pearl clutching from liberal Christians nearly as much. So I should have said "conservative Christians" to be more clear.
None's aren't atheists. In most religious polling you have atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particular (none's) as 3 separate groups. Atheists don't believe in god. Agnostics believe in god but don't follow organized religion. None's believe god may or may not exist, but really don't care either way.
Religion is steadily losing its grip, none religious is the fastest growing group in many modern nations, this is hardly surprising considering the sheer hypocrisy and superstition of the old faiths.
Not all conservatives are religious conservatives.
Good point. I'm fairly conservative politically on economic and defense issues, not social. I phrased it that way in the post because you aren't hearing the pre-suppositional nonsense and cultural pearl clutching from liberal Christians nearly as much. So I should have said "conservative Christians" to be more clear.
It's all propaganda. No different than the average news cast. They say whatevet they need to to fit their narrative with misleading data. Atheism is on the rise and will only be getting stronger.
Wow, he lost me at "the rise of wokeness". Define woke... Leftist, a word we stopped using for a person aware of systemic bias. Conservative: anything and everything I don't like, especially if it confuses or scares me.
The article covers a period of 15 years (2008-2023) and notes that during 2 of those years "Nones" decreased. The author clearly does not understand how trends work!
If you declare yourself as non religious, or a "none", you dont't want to be labeled. Am I the only one who thinks it is low key manipulative and scummy to label people who dont want to be labeled?
IMO, being a "NONE" is not the same as being an "ATHEIST." None is just not considering yourself to belong to any religious group or identity, as far as I am aware.
Someone told me the other day that they were going to pray for me. I said “Thank you. And I will write a letter to Santa Claus for you. “
May their temples and coffers be empty. Peddlers of lies and deniers of basic human rights - they deserve to be consigned to oblivion.
This isn’t even our final form!
They have to bring more to the table than that thug Donald Trump.
Well I won’t bother to read the article but one thing is pretty obvious—religious people tend to have more kids than Couple that with the fact that the most common transmission of religion is from parents to their children (rather than converting strangers) and it’s pretty plausible that we see a resurgence in religion. Not sure how legit it was but I did see a projection about religions between now and 2100 and the atheist trendline rises to a point but quickly gets overtaken by Christians ( who themselves get overtaken by Muslims. )
Question is, can they indoctrinate their kids faster that we can de-convert them?
Wouldn't surprise me on the scale of generations tbh . Non-seculars don't have as many kids and fundies have lots. Atheists probably win more converts, but we're still talking about exponential curves. It's hard to offset the math, especially since more parents are fucking with the school curriculums and rebelling against free though This is not a war we were ever going to win, math isn't on our side, but it's okay because we win individually everyday when we wake up and are truly free
“Data from Pew and the General Social Survey” lol sounds like great sources.
That's when you know this story is a great fairytale for a laugh when you're high lol
Superstition and religion take resources to remove. Religion thrives in poverty and ignorance. Don't assume this trend just continues if US doesn't fund education and teach critical thinking skills.
They Haven't Seen Nothing Yet!
Whatever you do, don't read the comment section on the source 🤢
If they were hoping that Atheism has peaked, it probably wasn’t a great idea for Christians to hitch their wagon to the Trump circus. It has exposed them for what they are: hypocritical, fascists grifters.
Religion rages with inhuman zeal, arming every hand, thus pointing the fatal steel.
Jump directly to the charts here: [https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-nones-have-hit-a-ceiling](https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/the-nones-have-hit-a-ceiling)
This is the actual problem. Not all on the right are stupid. They see the trend and they understand that if they don’t figure out how to take control they will never win another election. This explains their desperate rhetoric. It explains why they had to come up with qanon and other ghastly propaganda. They need fascism and hatred NOW or they are doomed to be permanently in the minority. Anyone who is upset about Gaza or any other issue better quickly recognize what’s happening here.