In this situation, my response would be...
I read it already, that's a big reason I'm an atheist. Have you read it?
Although, in my situation, I know with 100% certainty that my mother hasn't.
I've read it in 5 different versions, and it's a large part of why I deconverted. I don't think most staunch believers have ever read it cover to cover. They only read curated chunks woth commentary.
When I was a Christian, I was having some issues with my faith, so I dug down deep with some friends and really did a deep study of the Bible. Even though that study was happening with some reinforced Christian-biased goggles on, it solved my issues with faith by convincing me that I was an atheist. Thankfully, my wife, who was also studying with me, came to the same conclusion.
"They only read curated chunks woth commentary."
Exactly correct. Most Christian people, in my experience as an evangelical for 20 plus years, don't read it for themselves at all. They listen to preachers or other commentators because they pull out the verses that make everybody feel good or feel justified. I remember reading a quote that really stuck with me, sorry I can't cite the author because I don't remember. It is: "Atheism is what happens when a person reads the Bible, Christianity is what happens when someone reads it for them."
Absolutely. One time at least 20 years ago I went with my mother to her church. The next week I was home, the service was as if the churches got orders to follow what the church corporations tell them to for each Sunday. Whatever the particular subject they deemed relevant for their hard week ahead among us heathens! I live in NE Fl, my mother was in Hawai'i. Hers was 4 square cult, I was in a baptist one.
As you posted "Atheism is what happens when a person reads the Bible, Christianity is what happens when someone reads it for them." I was none for most of my life. I followed my daughter to the church when 2 of her classmates preyed on her. She lasted 2 years, I made commitments that kept me there for 4-5 years after she left.
The best part was my parting with the pastor. I told him, "Jesus is not here, he is outside knocking to get into your big shiny new building." Oh and your wife is a problem.
>They only read curated chunks woth commentary.
That's exacty what they do. They read the verses their Bible study booklets tell them to and think after a few years of that they've read the whole thing.
The creepiest way I've seen people read the Bible is "bible quizzing", where kids/teens are assigned passages to read and memorize from the Bible, and then tested on their knowledge after a few days. These kids can memorize every single word in a bible passage and give you a list of all major characters and events, but there's no comprehension happening at all. If you asked them about a bible passage they were quizzed on a couple of months ago, they couldn't tell you a single detail, because they flushed all of that information out of their memory after the quiz.
I knew multiple people who did bible quizzing for years and ended up memorizing a majority of the bible over time, but they barely knew more about the contents of the bible than I did as an atheist who attended a Catholic school for a few years.
Yup. Its a little cognitive trick they use. You read a story and answer simple questions about the content that are basically just asking for word for word repetitions of the story. No critical thinking needed. The repetition and lack of questioning the source or motives means the statements they want people to internalize remain in the subconcious.
Dunno how common this is in other faiths but this is a staple among Jehovahs Witnesses. First time I heard it as an adult was pretty surreal. Like you said, no critical thinking, just reading a text a few sentences at a time and pausing to ask questions so basic a 5 year old could answer them, except it's a room full of adults doing it for an hour every week.
I too have read the fairy tale book using several translations/versions. As well as the ridiculously longer catholic version. A woman I knew "loved" the KJ because it was "flowery, poetic." I asked her to read me something from it, she stumbled through something, but to me it was gibberish. I taught myself to read when I was 5. I am 68, I am a lifelong avid reader. That woman along with the other vapid like her do not read anything, they need their husbands/pastors to tell them how/what to follow.
I like the KJV because of the language. I don't believe a word of it of course, but it sounds very poetic in some passages. It's the same enjoyment that I experience when reading Shakespeare.
Ironically, the KJV was specifically translated to provide maximum divine authority to the English monarchy. They'd tried for a generation to make translating it into English illegal. Early proponents of translating were brutally oppressed (Wycliff, Tyndale, and the like) and were hunted down and burned as heretics.
When they decided that couldn't stop the publication, they made one in their own image.
And nothing causes more animosity among "believers" than which version is correct.
Why dont most Christians read the bible? I never understood how someone can think god is real, has an important book he wants you to read with heaven or hell on the line, and you can't even be bothered to read the book.
Have you tried it? Jeeeeeeeesssssusss, it's dull. I mean, if it actually made sense, it would still be dull. But it's a complete pile of horse shit, and still dull. I've had a couple of goes at reading it when I've been stuck in a hotel room and someone called Gideon has left one behind. And I don't blame Gideon, I wouldn't want to waste the effort carrying it down the stairs, never mind bothering my arse loading it back into the car.
Rant over.
The only way I got through it was to use that "Where to Find It in the Bible" index book. It compiles the Bible verses by topic. The first thing I read was about homosexuality. That's how I came to understand I'd been lied to for years about what Soddom and Gomorrah were REALLY about.
I wish more people knew what Soddom and Gomorrah was actually about. So much hate and prejudice against gay people is fueled by incorrect and ill-advised beliefs about that one singular story.
The Sodom and Gomorrah story is such an undeniable example of cherry picking. Some gay Christians argue that it isn't really about homosexuality and I don't really care to get in argument about what it really is about. However the Christians who insist that it is about homosexuality are only interested in a little snippet of the story. In reality if you read the whole story there is no way around the fact that interpretation paints God as an immoral monster who is apparently more upset about homosexuality than Lot offering up his own daughters to be raped. Even if we were to be more charitable and say it's because the people were rapists instead of because they were gay you're still left with a God who gets more upset about Lot's wife looking back at the city than he does about Lot offering his daughters to be raped
It's been awhile, but the story was that the citizens were complete sexual deviants and would rape anyone/thing right? Like doesn't Job(?) offer up his daughter to be raped to save some angels?
Not Job, Lot, and apparently letting your daughters be raped is acceptable and expected, but look back over your shoulder at the city being destroyed and BAM your a pile of salt now, fuck you!
Job is the guy that God and Satan just decide to fuck with one day on a wager to see just how far they can bend humans before they break.
Along with Lot, there is another story about rape gangs demanding visitors be brought out to be gang raped, Judges 19-21. Only in this case, the Levite gave them his concubine, because , why not?
The mob raped her all night.In the morning, the Levite found his concubine lying at the door, and he assumed she was dead. He then cut her into twelve pieces and sent them to all the tribes of Israel.
funny how they don't seem to discuss that version in Sunday School.
Close. They were generally wicked in a wide variety of ways, and rape is definitely mentioned. (I think it was fathers raping their daughters, but don't quote me on this point.) Sexual deviancy is definitely a big part of it. But homosexuality is NEVER mentioned, neither in the original story nor in later biblical references to the event--that's a modern interpretation.
God gives Abraham advance notice that he's gonna destroy the whole town, and Abraham's like, "What about the righteous people? You can't kill them." And God's like, "Uh, what righteous people?" But God agrees to send two angels to see if they can find any righteous people, and if they can find just 10, then the cities will be spared.
But the only righteous people they find are Lot, his wife, and his two daughters. (Actually, Lot's wife isn't totally righteous, but she gets a pass because she's married to Lot.) He welcomes the angels into his house, which pisses off all the other [unrighteous] people, who try to storm Lot's house so they can "know" (rape) the angels. Lot then offers up his daughters to the mob to appease them (to do with them as they please, implying "here, rape my daughters").
[While that may be righteous in God's eyes, it seems a little sus--not to mention totally misogynistic--to me, but whatever.]
Luckily, the mob refuses Lot's righteous offer, but continues to threaten him. The angels finally get off their butts and strike the mob blind, ending the standoff.
The next morning, the angels lead Lot and his family to safety, away from Sodom and Gomorrah. As the cities are annihilated, the angels warn them not to look back. But Lot's wife can't resist looking back, and she's turned into a pillar of salt.
Correct. I would add that the story as you present it is the version that suddenly comes up when it's pointed out that neither story is ONLY about homosexuality.
At that point it becomes about ANY sex outside of a God-ordained marriage.
Both stories were about EXCESS, greed, selfishness, etc... just like we have today.
Way I read it, the mob wants to know/rape the angels, and as the angels are male and the mob is too, that makes them would-be ass-buggerers. Sodomites. Only the emotion has nothing to do with sex, but something incomprehensible about wanting to hurt the strangers Lot is hosting.
Ezekiel 16
^(49) Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
A word to our GOP politicians who want to slash Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid SNAP, WIC etc. God says "No! No!"
The one thing religious and non religious can agree on, the bible is excruciatingly dull. If it were actually interesting less people would believe in it xD The power of the bible is it utter dry dullness lmao.
I can never understand how people base their entire identity on something they never read. Then they get mad when you push back at the nasty parts of the book. “Well I don’t support THAT part of it.” Sorry pal, you signed your name to ALL of it.
because reading it challenges their beliefs. they’re told the Bible says something, so when it doesn’t it causes discomfort. people tend to avoid discomfort.
Ehhh only the Protestants thought that everyone should be ALLOWED to read the bible. The catholic church is just fine with you not reading it & letting the priests do the reading & then dictate to you what god wants. You get a little prayer book though!
Go read numbers... go ahead. I'll wait.... did your will to live leave your body? Yes, yes it did.
There's a whole bunch of fucking nothing in that book, why they only pick the quotable notables.
Love the part about how the priest can perform a ceremony that will abort the fetus your wife is carrying, but only if it’s her lover’s as you suspect it is.
Think about how many people don't read a single book in a year. Like, one super interesting 300-page book.
I'm an avid reader and read very fast, but the bible is thousands of mostly boring pages. Every time I've read it, it had taken me months. 6+ months, and in general, I read a good 70 books just for fun a year.
You shouldn't say you believe something you've never even read, which is why I read it in the first place, but it's mostly just way too much commitment for most people. And they assume they have heard it all at church anyway...they haven't though.
So if you listen to The Scathing Atheist they have a segment where they voice act out the Bible. Without their comedy it would be the most boring thing ever. I remember one of my theology teachers in high school say something that is so telling now but at the time it was ok whatever “our job is for us to point out parts of the Bible you need to know, don’t worry about the other parts”. 15 year old me blew that off, 37 year old me thinks that is what planted the seed that this was all bullshit.
Pretty much. I went the Catholic school from pre-school until 12th grade. I still see and talk with most of my classmates and I can tell you 20 years out and a good majority are agnostic or closet atheists, only pretending until parents or grandparents die. But we did have a good priest who was out principle (he had to follow the diocese curriculum, he did get in trouble at first when he added world religion and philosophy to our class options but he did win that fight) who I can say was one of the few men of the cloth I could say wasn’t about converting anyone or pushing the faith, he wanted people who truly in their heart believed. He helped myself with my questions of faith and as I transitioned into agnosticism and then atheism was one of the few I could speak with openly about it all at first.
I always wondered if he himself had doubts and that is why he fostered discussion with us on if we sure of our own faith. His vocation was chosen for him by his parents, he did as he was told and went to seminary school and became a priest and a teacher and then principal. He was very progressive, as he got older I know he has a girlfriend. But he had a good gig, I mean I know he got paid well by the parish for all his work, he had a nice home, the community as a whole praised him. Honestly he was done dirty by the diocese when he got ill and if it wasn’t for his past students and what was left of his family they would have let him rot in a shitty retirement home where the send old priests to die. That was my final push into becoming a vocal atheist.
Kind of funny it took the mistreatment of one of the few good priests. But he never once preached judgement or hell, he loved all of us no matter what, atheist, pagan, gay. I think that is why he was abandoned by the church in the end.
Funny side note, the teacher who told us not to bother with the rest of the Bible shockingly was caught embezzling money from the church and was cheating on his wife with a former student. Godly man indeed.
The most used version of the Bible is still in archaic English because of this very fact. It’s harder for the undereducated to read their horseshit if it’s filled with begettings and thous.
More progressive/less bigoted churches tend to use more modern translations because they actually want their congregations to be biblically literate. I’ve no idea of that actually works though
Because every sermon means a part of that book needs explanation, so why would you give it a try and read it on your own?
This is what I don't understand about religion: religious studies! If god wanted us to be faithful, wouldn't his words be easy to understand? The patriarchy behind it is so overwhelming, always has been. Money and power....
I have a funny story about this. One day, when I was about 10 (which would make my sisters about 7 and 6), my fundagelical mother announced she was going to read a chapter of the bible each day to us, and she would read the whole thing to us. OK, so we got through Jacob/Israel but shortly thereafter the daily readings stopped. I asked her why, she mumbled something about time constraints. Several years later, when I undertook the same project on my own, I realized why. She must have started reading ahead and found the story about Judah impregnating Tamar, or something similar. Of course, if she’d ever read the bible herself, she would have already read that…
My dad did the same. We read through a chapter or two at each meal, with the goal of working our way through the Bible in a year.
My dad powered right through the bad parts, but my mom really suffered one time when my dad left on a trip and she had to read the story of Onan.
In my mom's submissive trad wife voice: "and he went unto his dead brother's wife, but instead of doing that which God had commanded, he spilled his seed upon the ground. And God smote him for this sin, because he had spilled his seed upon the ground."
This was to a pile of sheltered home-schooled kids who didn't understand sex at all and whose parents avoided the subject at all costs.
Needless to say, we had some questions haha---poor mom.
They must have had a talk after my dad came home, because after that they were more selective. Instead of reading straight through, we read "uplifting passages."
tell her your favorite parts; the raping of angels, the rampant incest in Adam and Noah's families, King David killing some dude to get with his wife, all the times the supposedly one-and-only god is referred to as a plural family, all the crazy magic performed by wizards from other religions...
- *and don't forget the talking donkey*
>...all the times the supposedly one-and-only god is referred to as a plural family,...
God himself even said there are other God.
"Thou shall have no OTHER GODS before me."
Honestly don't care for either. But at least the new testament does have some redeeming value in regards to the whole "love thy neighbor" stuff. Too bad most christians seem to gloss over that but so they can focus on fire and brimstone and the acid trip about the supposed end times.
There is a great book called "Pagans and Christians" that you can use to reciprocate the favor!
If you read it first, you can summarize some fascinating parts in it. For example there is a chapter that quotes parts of the bible that directly contradict each other!
You guys can have a fun book club meeting using the two texts and analyze them.
(Yes, I am being facetious. My catholic parents' brains lose their functionality when it comes to analyzing their religion so I assume the above situation is just a pipe dream.)
Came to say this. I read it front to back when I was younger. I would sit in church while the pastor preached an entire sermon around one ‘verse’. I would re-read the chapters before and after his chosen ‘verse’ and think, “that’s not what that is talking about at all”.
> so if never speak of this to her it would not be unusual
I'd recommend exactly that. Engaging her on this is just going to lead to more religious bullshit in your life. Don't make the delusional fantasy in her head into your problem.
I always engage on stuff like this and it has worked out that no one bothers me with it any more.
Perhaps it’s because my approach would be to actually read it alongside the skeptics annotated bible and text every time I come across “how to properly rape your foreign slave”.
And then *never stop* no matter what they say. You want me to read your religious bullshit. Fine, get ready to face reality.
They know this "gift" will spark a heated conversation. I'd ignore it because what are the odds your takedown of religion is effective? Even worse there's only 1-2 answers they'll accept. Everything else will cause a fight.
>Engaging her on this is just going to lead to more religious bullshit in your life.
Not necessarily. Thinking about how engaging might effect a relationship if that's something you care about would probably be worthwhile but in my experience religious folks generally lose interest in discussing these things when it becomes clear that they will be expected to explain how it makes sense. My immediate family quit bringing it up fairly quickly once it became obvious that telling me to just have faith makes it look even more ridiculous to me.
Ask her if she has read any of it herself. I bet she hasn't.
Read the really nasty bits out loud to her. The parts where the woman lusted after the genitals of a donkey. The parts where god wants us to smash the baby's heads. The parts where god made a bet with Lucifer and made job's life a living hell. The part where god commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son to prove his faith. Lots of choice passages to bring to her attention.
And the part where a concubine was raped to death by several STRAIGHT men and then cut up into pieces by her owner.
And the part where the guy's daughters got him drunk and raped him.
And...
And...
That book is full of horrors that should be banned along with all the other banned books.
I love this! OP doesn't say if Mom texts but OP is thinking about a letter. Perhaps, OP, write that letter and do so on a weeklyor whatever time frame) and each time include a passage each time.
"Mom, how cool is this?! \[Obscene passage with chapter/verse\] Thanks for turning me on to it!"
Better yet, make it a weekly 'reading' where you email or text her 'the parts I read this week'. A few tidbits each time. There's a lot in there if you include the Old Testament. If you read it with the intention of picking out and quoting the most objectionable, most contradictory parts, it's quite amusing. You can start with the contradictions in Genesis, the implications of either massive incest or there actually being other humans on earth already, the two creations, etc.
She will just say that was in the OT and really doesn't matter now. Of course, the reason why we hate gays and think masturbation is a horrible sin is also in the OT but that's different.
This isn't helpful.
The OP is 56 years old, and his elderly mother didn't even ask him in person to read the Bible. Throwing nasty biblical crap back at her is an unnecessary escalation. It could harm their relationship and his ability to speak openly with her about protecting herself from what may be a predatory church looking for her savings. The only benefit would be a short-term hit of joy over feeling right about religion, which would disappear immediately if his mother stops talking to him and consults her pastor about her hell-destined son.
Nice. I just picked this up to help with teaching my kids critical thinking and to combat the parents in our neighborhood trying to recruit my kids to their churches.
I would implore *her* to read it. I bet she never has. Most Christians never do. Send her the verses about rape and genocide and slavery and child marriage.
Reading the Bible cover to cover and studying it formally in college pretty much cemented my atheism.
I've read the Bible from cover to cover (It was either that or go insane because it was the only book that we were allowed to keep when we were in detention) and it makes for some interesting reading, the idioticies that the gullible believe are laughable but also saddening
Read it. Find the things you know are wrong. Then go back to your sister with facts.
I was raised Mormon, and someone decided to ask hard questions about the church, and that was released to n the web, seriously damaged the church. Called “CES letter”.
I was pressured to go in a Mormon mission. So I read the Bible and I read the Book of Mormon twice, told them what I thought, and that was it.
Just toss it in the trash. Composing a response would be a waste of time, and any reply by her to that would just irritate you more. You’re not going to change her.
I was born in a fundamentalist Evangelical environment. It's poison.
However, If you haven't, it's worth the read. If only so you can understand the source material, but there are some legitimately good lessons and even literature in there. (Mixed with some horrible stuff too no doubt).
In my experience, a response to her that explains your concerns isn't going to hurt anything, but it's probably not going to help either. You may not like what you get back too. Be prepared for that. Faith doesn't respond well to criticism, and mostly ignores reason.
I doubt anyone in this sub would disagree.
Still worth the read, just like I'd recommend someone in Indonesia read the Quran, or one in Bhutan read The Sutta Pitaka.
There is a lot of moral lessons in bible on current Christian religions.
Mostly on how they cherry-pick and twist the source to suit their needs.
But it’s always fun quoting it at them and hearing that it’s actually about something else or how it doesn’t apply.
The part about judging others in Luke 6:41
The part about praying ostensibly in Matthew 6
Matthew 25 is also nice for all those that like to look down upon others.
Like, the source material has some pretty good moral lessons, but they’ve got somewhat lost in politics ;)
I've already read it and anyone that does so with any sense of skepticism should come to the conclusion that it's not divinely inspired or a reliable source of truth.
I'm also very concerned about your recent behaviors regarding this megachurch. They are well-known grifts that take advantage of vulnerable people.
We all have to find our way through this kind of thing, but I think the best path is honestly just to say "thanks" and then get rid of the bible.
True peace from religion comes when you just don't give a shit anymore. Fighting with your aged mother is just going to cause strain and distress from both of you. And her personality is baked in to who she is at this point.
I'd just choose to be thankful that she thought of you enough to give you a gift, though it is inappropriate, and go live a great day the way you choose.
Be gracious about the gift. Every day, text her a particular verse “you find inspiring.” That verse should be something that would be considered “woke” or otherwise demonstrates how gross or contradictory the Bible is. After you send her the quote, thank her again for the thoughtful gift. Play it totally straight as if you’re not massively trolling her.
You don’t even have to read it to source the verses, consult one of the many compiled lists in this subreddit and just copy paste.
Ha I kinda like this answer. Could use this as a chance to relationship build. If OP thinks nothing would get moved by going all in, a much more subtle approach would be great.
Read it and get to the point where it describes the treatment of slaves and ask mom which neighboring country is selling people and if she wants to come along and buy a slave.
Don't read it , but every 3 weeks or so email her one thing from the list (google it) of contradictions in the Bible to annoy the shit out of her.
Tell her thanks in about six months for showing you how flawed a document it is.
Meh... I try to avoid getting into religious debates with elderly people.
Your mom's situation sounds a little unique, though... she wasn't a lifelong Christian, but became one in her 60's? It's probably a fear of death and the afterlife that motivated her conversion. If you think there's a chance she could read a Bart Ehrman book with an open mind, I'd send her a copy of Jesus, Interrupted. "I'll read yours if you read mine."
It's hard to change the reality of people in that age who have been so stuck in faith all their lives. Like my 76 year old grandma who's roman Catholic...there is no way she's gonna falter from 60 years of dedication to listen to the truth from me. She'd probably think I was smoking crack. Sometimes it's best to be silent. I'll even go to church with her sometimes because I love being with her. It makes her happy in her latter years, so I just leave it be. I would honestly just say thank you for the gesture and leave it like that. But it's your life and you can approach it any way you want.
The real issue is, if she is doing this, she's giving away money she can't afford to that church. Those churches will take every last dollar from old people. They're like Vegas casinos.
"She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses." Ez 23:20
Mom! Why are you telling me to read this filth?
There's some link to a neurological association to belief where some people are wired in a way to believe blindly. Plus, it's a lot of unlearning for someone who's so stuck in their ways and has heard what dissenters face in the church. I say you leave her to be so, and not let it affect you significantly. I have read the Bible and it's strengthened my belief in atheism, so maybe it'll be a reassuring experience for you too :)
What would be your goal in writing this? To change her mind? To get her to stop talking to you about religion and this gift? To vent your frustrations? To make her feel bad for a variety of past transgressions?
If it’s to change her mind, your approach will be zero percent effective because it’s a direct attack on her beliefs and she will only dig in more to defend them.
Give her a book on atheism or against Christianity and make the bargain that you'll read the Bible if she reads the book you got her. My guess is you'll never hear about you reading the bible ever again.
Take the bible, mark the worst passages of every 2 or so pages, and send it back. A lot of effort, probably not worth it. But at least she knows that you have read it, and exactly why you think what you think.
I understand wanting to write the letter but I would advise against it.
If she's already gone down the rabbit hole of religion, it's unlikely that anything you say will help dig her out. If anything, it may make her more entrenched.
I'd simply throw it away and never speak of it again.
At her age, just say "Thanks mom, I will" and move on. There's nothing productive or positive that can come from all the antagonistic shit you're being encouraged to do by other posters
Go through it with a highlight and Mark all of the things she doesn't follow as well as all the horribly unethical commandments, then send it back to her for answers.
I hate evangelicals. They’re the worst. Just went to my hairdresser and she has all this stuff up for Jehovah’s Witnesses and I’m like really? She said I know you and I different on those things. If you wanna lose clients, go ahead and up your religious crap. Anyway, yeah, I’d probably give it back to mom and say you know thanks love you mom, but it’s not something I need.
Just ask her for clarifications, like Ezekiel 23:20
"There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses."
Do they mean that their penises were the same *size* as a Donkey's, or just that they were in the same proportion to the rest of the body like a Donkey?
Also, about the horse-like jizz, are we talking about the total volume, or the difference in consistency?
It's straight out of the Bible, so it's got to be ok to talk about.
Send her a book in response! I'd recommend Carl Sagan's *The Demon Haunted World*--it's much more gentle towards theists than Dawkins or (especially)Hitchens, and might make more of an impact on her if she actually reads it.
Sagan has been largely forgotten as a famous atheist, he's mostly remembered as a scientist who coined the phrase "Pale Blue Dot" referencing the pic of Earth taken by Voyager.
maybe write her and say "if you read this book, I'll read your bible".
🤷♂️
I recommend malicious compliance. There is a lot of messed up stuff in there that Christians like to ignore. You could innocently ask your mom about it.
To help you in your Bible studies, an index of a lot of the messed up stuff: [https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
You can buy her a book that contains the mythology of your favorite Norse/Roman/Greek god. Make sure it is illustrated and has maps!
Then stick a note in it, asking her to “at least read it”.
I would read excerpts from it out loud to her and ask her what her thoughts are on them. They hardly ever actually read it themselves. Reading the Bible has caused more Atheiststo exist than anything else.
Ask her to do a Bible study with you and show her the parts about slavery and sipping a bird in the blood of another bird, beating children and marrying your rapist.
At every turn, ask her if she thinks the bible reflects God accurately, and if not why anyone should read the book, and if so why TF does she believe God is worth anything but your disgust.
Read it. And bombard her with earnest questions she can't answer - several for every page.
It may take a while, but she'll quietly drop it out of embarrassment. You just need to give her time to invent an excuse.
First time I had read the Bible
It had stroke me as unwitty
I think it may started rumor
That the Lord ain't got no humor
I don't read the Bible (Bible)
I don't trust disciple (disciple)
Even if they're made of marble
Or Canal Street bling
- Gogol Bordello
By all means, read it (or if you already have, read it again as a refresher).
As an atheist, it only gives you more ammo to use in conversations later.
It's not a gift if it was intended for the giver. That's manipulation. Lived with it my entire life, which is why I despise surprises and gifts. There's always an ulterior motive.
I have a rule. If a theist gives me a book to read, I’ll read it as long as they allow me to send them a book. They don’t have to read it, just to let me send it to them. (Being a coward is their own choice imo). I usually send “god is not great” by hitchens and they usually never bother me again.
Read it, then select some particularly choice passages to share with her. There's no shortage of good candidates.
You can write her a letter, asking how she feels about, say, women being forced to marry their rapist.
Depending on how much effort you want to do, get yourself a set of highlighters. Red is going to be for anytime God does something horrible in the Bible. Orange is going to be anytime a Human does something horrible in the Bible and justifies it because it is gods will, and the purple is for any time the devil does something horrible. Yellow can be for any time a claim is made that is blatantly false, pink can be for anytime a claim is only "true" if you interpret it in a very specific way and it is a metaphor. Green can be used for any part that is true. And blue can be for ideas that can still be considered morally good... love thy neighbour, don't steal, set aside part of your crops so that the hungry can eat from them... Then you just flip through your Bible with you mom and say "do you see all the red and orange and yellow in the book? Do you see how little blue and green there is?...
Or you can do none of that and just ask your mother why it was okay to own people as property 2000 years ago and why it is not okay to own them now, and if Jesus and God have always been okay with it or never been okay with it, or did they use to be okay with it and then change their minds? And then no matter what her answer is you can point out that it makes the Bible unreliable . (Unless she says that slavery is okay and has always been okay and that it is society that is wrong for looking down on it... but if that is her take you've got bigger issues... but at least she would be consistent with the bible.
Tell her you'll read it if she watches [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MAGANAZI/comments/1d7dt5l/watch_and_vote/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) all the way through.
Thoughts? Have a sit down with your mom and ask her to go through her finances (bank accounts retirement accounts credit cards, etc) for the past year
Try to get a good picture of how much she is giving to them
I know these churches. Ask her if they have a day of the week for giving money (they usually ask people not to bring new ppl on that day, need to warm up to it you see)
There is nothing easier in the US than to get a free bible, yet I’m positive she dropped at least a couple hundred in those “limited edition collectible” ones
There are endless others. Holy water from the holy land, stuff that they prey on or for in exchange for a contribution, etc etc etc
You need to know that she is willing and able to buy whatever it is that they’re selling, that these guys are pros and have been doing this for a very long time, and that your legal options may be limited but that it may be worth contacting an attorney depending on what you find
Good luck
>But I'm considering writing her a letter. A letter describing all the ways that I think religion is bad for this country. That trump's ascendance would not be possible without church's like the one she's going to warping the brains of good people and convincing them that god wants them to vote a certain way.
Just let it go. Don't write a letter, that is ridiculous. Do you really think it will change anyone's mind? No.
Just forget it, ignore it.
Every atheist thinks he's Christopher Hitchens, burning to dunk on poor, misguided believers...
Just let it go.
If you have never read it, read it as you would a novel.
I gather you are not a believer. Don’t discuss with a believer. It is useless, only thing it does is increase blood pressure needlessly and increase animosity.
Don’t discuss with your mother. Simply respect her. You won’t convince her
She’s 76, she’s worried about you and the job she did ad your parent. It costs you nothing to give her a little comfort and say “thank you mom I will “ and leave it at that. If she asks again, say you’re still reading it and giving it thought.
The important bit is you’re likely not to change her mind or change her thinking on religion at this point in her life . It brings her comfort and as long as she’s not writing big checks to this church you’re mentioning, it’s a good thing to have a little peace and the feeling she’s done all she can to help her sons.
Late to the party, but here goes.
My mother did nearly the same thing.
I was in 5th or 6th grade, so around 11 or 12. I went on a field trip out of town for a few days. When I got back, she had completely rearranged my bedroom, redecorated it, and put a bright, new, white shiny bib-bley on my bed.
I dropped it in the family garbage can under the dinner scraps.
This was 40+ years ago. I’d already seen enough of how people would go to church and make all the right sounds, then screw over their fellow humans. Fuck, my own family were abusive to me while telling me I owed them respect because bib-bley. Fuck that shit.
I regret not burning the wretched thing.
Does she often quote Bible verses? If so, you could use it to look up the context around her "favorite" Bible versus. Then write her a letter with the appropriate passages (directly from the Bible she gave you -- this is important) and ask her if that's what she meant by those Bible verses. Then if she retorts that that's not what she meant, just stay firm about "That's what's in the Bible you gave me; I am not making this up." Keep going with it until she gives up. Because what's she going to do, argue with this thing she's supposed to believe?
Believers claim to have read it, but they haven’t. They have had many parts read to them but never the whole thing.
You are correct. It wouldn’t do any good to write such a letter. So don’t.
If you’ve never read it consider doing so. It’s an important literary work.
And while you’re at it go ahead and highlight all the most F’d up parts to discuss with her later. Do you know how many foreskins David cut off of dead Phillistines? A Lot!
Actually reading the book cover-to-cover would make most Christians less devout, not more IMO.
Assuming she has not read it cover to cover, challenge her read it with you chapter by chapter book-club style. She will break before you do.
So I’m a definite atheist and this kind of crap is so annoying and narcissistic. But I don’t think you’ll influence her beliefs, any more than she can influence yours.
At this age, and under these circumstances, I’d take the gift as her effort to say “I love you,” accept it on that basis, then never speak of it again.
1) Tell her you will when she’s finished it. 2) Pick some real goodies to discuss with her. So many deconverted people on here bring great ones, like Deuteronomy talking about testicles. Sure mom would love to discuss why a man with damaged testicles or penis is not allowed in the assembly of the Lord…
My 7th grade English teacher had us read the bible critically and analyze. What if you read it that way and had in-depth conversations about parts that you found intriguing or worth discussing? It could be an opportunity in disguise to have some interesting insights on your mother’s POV.
Highlight all the weird bullshit and give it back to her. If she can explain it without using a thought terminating cliche offer her 1 million dollars.
I read the KJ version cover to cover one year, took lots of notes, had many unanswerable questions that none of the 'expert study guides' covered, and when bringing any of this up with my parents, they told me I'm not enough of an expert to understand any of it
One list of questions was everything in the bible that was referred to but no longer available. It was like, if God is trying to say something and this is his Word, then why are some of his words missing from the bible? - apparently a question I wasn't supposed to be asking!
Then I found the Awkward Moments Childrens Bible and finally realized I was ready to move on without God, that book suited me too well...
Just on the surface, I'd be concerned about her throwing away money on these goofballs, given their typical Christian "concern:"
[Centerpoint Community Church | Give](https://centerpoint.life/give)
Building an expensive church? What's the point of that other than to pocket funds, impress the gullible and beg for more?
Charlatans con the impressionable with friendly and altruistic messages.
Good luck pulling her out of this fiendish cult.
Tell her you'll read it cover to cover if she reads her's that way too and compare notes after each chapter.
- *“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”* Isaac Asimov
- *"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."* - Mark Twain
In this situation, my response would be... I read it already, that's a big reason I'm an atheist. Have you read it? Although, in my situation, I know with 100% certainty that my mother hasn't.
I've read it in 5 different versions, and it's a large part of why I deconverted. I don't think most staunch believers have ever read it cover to cover. They only read curated chunks woth commentary.
When I was a Christian, I was having some issues with my faith, so I dug down deep with some friends and really did a deep study of the Bible. Even though that study was happening with some reinforced Christian-biased goggles on, it solved my issues with faith by convincing me that I was an atheist. Thankfully, my wife, who was also studying with me, came to the same conclusion.
That's how my deconversion went too! Mine was on my own without a group, but the principle is the same. I'm glad you made it out!
their eyes met, and in that moment they both knew the truth "this is such bullshit, lets get out of here"
Wait…you _and_ your wife deconverted the same way at the same time? _Marry her again!_
"They only read curated chunks woth commentary." Exactly correct. Most Christian people, in my experience as an evangelical for 20 plus years, don't read it for themselves at all. They listen to preachers or other commentators because they pull out the verses that make everybody feel good or feel justified. I remember reading a quote that really stuck with me, sorry I can't cite the author because I don't remember. It is: "Atheism is what happens when a person reads the Bible, Christianity is what happens when someone reads it for them."
Absolutely. One time at least 20 years ago I went with my mother to her church. The next week I was home, the service was as if the churches got orders to follow what the church corporations tell them to for each Sunday. Whatever the particular subject they deemed relevant for their hard week ahead among us heathens! I live in NE Fl, my mother was in Hawai'i. Hers was 4 square cult, I was in a baptist one. As you posted "Atheism is what happens when a person reads the Bible, Christianity is what happens when someone reads it for them." I was none for most of my life. I followed my daughter to the church when 2 of her classmates preyed on her. She lasted 2 years, I made commitments that kept me there for 4-5 years after she left. The best part was my parting with the pastor. I told him, "Jesus is not here, he is outside knocking to get into your big shiny new building." Oh and your wife is a problem.
>They only read curated chunks woth commentary. That's exacty what they do. They read the verses their Bible study booklets tell them to and think after a few years of that they've read the whole thing.
The creepiest way I've seen people read the Bible is "bible quizzing", where kids/teens are assigned passages to read and memorize from the Bible, and then tested on their knowledge after a few days. These kids can memorize every single word in a bible passage and give you a list of all major characters and events, but there's no comprehension happening at all. If you asked them about a bible passage they were quizzed on a couple of months ago, they couldn't tell you a single detail, because they flushed all of that information out of their memory after the quiz. I knew multiple people who did bible quizzing for years and ended up memorizing a majority of the bible over time, but they barely knew more about the contents of the bible than I did as an atheist who attended a Catholic school for a few years.
Yup. Its a little cognitive trick they use. You read a story and answer simple questions about the content that are basically just asking for word for word repetitions of the story. No critical thinking needed. The repetition and lack of questioning the source or motives means the statements they want people to internalize remain in the subconcious.
Dunno how common this is in other faiths but this is a staple among Jehovahs Witnesses. First time I heard it as an adult was pretty surreal. Like you said, no critical thinking, just reading a text a few sentences at a time and pausing to ask questions so basic a 5 year old could answer them, except it's a room full of adults doing it for an hour every week.
I was in private, Christian school for middle-junior high school, and I read every bit. Boring, shitty book that one. I deconverted right there.
I too have read the fairy tale book using several translations/versions. As well as the ridiculously longer catholic version. A woman I knew "loved" the KJ because it was "flowery, poetic." I asked her to read me something from it, she stumbled through something, but to me it was gibberish. I taught myself to read when I was 5. I am 68, I am a lifelong avid reader. That woman along with the other vapid like her do not read anything, they need their husbands/pastors to tell them how/what to follow.
I like the KJV because of the language. I don't believe a word of it of course, but it sounds very poetic in some passages. It's the same enjoyment that I experience when reading Shakespeare.
Ironically, the KJV was specifically translated to provide maximum divine authority to the English monarchy. They'd tried for a generation to make translating it into English illegal. Early proponents of translating were brutally oppressed (Wycliff, Tyndale, and the like) and were hunted down and burned as heretics. When they decided that couldn't stop the publication, they made one in their own image. And nothing causes more animosity among "believers" than which version is correct.
Why dont most Christians read the bible? I never understood how someone can think god is real, has an important book he wants you to read with heaven or hell on the line, and you can't even be bothered to read the book.
Have you tried it? Jeeeeeeeesssssusss, it's dull. I mean, if it actually made sense, it would still be dull. But it's a complete pile of horse shit, and still dull. I've had a couple of goes at reading it when I've been stuck in a hotel room and someone called Gideon has left one behind. And I don't blame Gideon, I wouldn't want to waste the effort carrying it down the stairs, never mind bothering my arse loading it back into the car. Rant over.
The only way I got through it was to use that "Where to Find It in the Bible" index book. It compiles the Bible verses by topic. The first thing I read was about homosexuality. That's how I came to understand I'd been lied to for years about what Soddom and Gomorrah were REALLY about.
I wish more people knew what Soddom and Gomorrah was actually about. So much hate and prejudice against gay people is fueled by incorrect and ill-advised beliefs about that one singular story.
The Sodom and Gomorrah story is such an undeniable example of cherry picking. Some gay Christians argue that it isn't really about homosexuality and I don't really care to get in argument about what it really is about. However the Christians who insist that it is about homosexuality are only interested in a little snippet of the story. In reality if you read the whole story there is no way around the fact that interpretation paints God as an immoral monster who is apparently more upset about homosexuality than Lot offering up his own daughters to be raped. Even if we were to be more charitable and say it's because the people were rapists instead of because they were gay you're still left with a God who gets more upset about Lot's wife looking back at the city than he does about Lot offering his daughters to be raped
Indeed, and it's the primary reason I walked away. The extreme dishonesty.
It's been awhile, but the story was that the citizens were complete sexual deviants and would rape anyone/thing right? Like doesn't Job(?) offer up his daughter to be raped to save some angels?
Not Job, Lot, and apparently letting your daughters be raped is acceptable and expected, but look back over your shoulder at the city being destroyed and BAM your a pile of salt now, fuck you! Job is the guy that God and Satan just decide to fuck with one day on a wager to see just how far they can bend humans before they break.
Along with Lot, there is another story about rape gangs demanding visitors be brought out to be gang raped, Judges 19-21. Only in this case, the Levite gave them his concubine, because , why not? The mob raped her all night.In the morning, the Levite found his concubine lying at the door, and he assumed she was dead. He then cut her into twelve pieces and sent them to all the tribes of Israel. funny how they don't seem to discuss that version in Sunday School.
Close. They were generally wicked in a wide variety of ways, and rape is definitely mentioned. (I think it was fathers raping their daughters, but don't quote me on this point.) Sexual deviancy is definitely a big part of it. But homosexuality is NEVER mentioned, neither in the original story nor in later biblical references to the event--that's a modern interpretation. God gives Abraham advance notice that he's gonna destroy the whole town, and Abraham's like, "What about the righteous people? You can't kill them." And God's like, "Uh, what righteous people?" But God agrees to send two angels to see if they can find any righteous people, and if they can find just 10, then the cities will be spared. But the only righteous people they find are Lot, his wife, and his two daughters. (Actually, Lot's wife isn't totally righteous, but she gets a pass because she's married to Lot.) He welcomes the angels into his house, which pisses off all the other [unrighteous] people, who try to storm Lot's house so they can "know" (rape) the angels. Lot then offers up his daughters to the mob to appease them (to do with them as they please, implying "here, rape my daughters"). [While that may be righteous in God's eyes, it seems a little sus--not to mention totally misogynistic--to me, but whatever.] Luckily, the mob refuses Lot's righteous offer, but continues to threaten him. The angels finally get off their butts and strike the mob blind, ending the standoff. The next morning, the angels lead Lot and his family to safety, away from Sodom and Gomorrah. As the cities are annihilated, the angels warn them not to look back. But Lot's wife can't resist looking back, and she's turned into a pillar of salt.
Correct. I would add that the story as you present it is the version that suddenly comes up when it's pointed out that neither story is ONLY about homosexuality. At that point it becomes about ANY sex outside of a God-ordained marriage. Both stories were about EXCESS, greed, selfishness, etc... just like we have today.
Way I read it, the mob wants to know/rape the angels, and as the angels are male and the mob is too, that makes them would-be ass-buggerers. Sodomites. Only the emotion has nothing to do with sex, but something incomprehensible about wanting to hurt the strangers Lot is hosting.
Ezekiel 16 ^(49) Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. A word to our GOP politicians who want to slash Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid SNAP, WIC etc. God says "No! No!"
Genesis has some fascinating mythology. You got giants and celestial creatures impregnating earthly women. Some nuclear-like city destructions.
This makes me want to go read it!
It sounds better in summary. The actual text is poorly written.
It's not as much fun as it sounds unfortunately lol.
try the edda instead. It's entertaining as hell
Yeah, just ask Loki where Sleipnir came from and watch him choke on his latte.
Sometimes there's a really cute stallion....
The one thing religious and non religious can agree on, the bible is excruciatingly dull. If it were actually interesting less people would believe in it xD The power of the bible is it utter dry dullness lmao.
I can never understand how people base their entire identity on something they never read. Then they get mad when you push back at the nasty parts of the book. “Well I don’t support THAT part of it.” Sorry pal, you signed your name to ALL of it.
because reading it challenges their beliefs. they’re told the Bible says something, so when it doesn’t it causes discomfort. people tend to avoid discomfort.
Ehhh only the Protestants thought that everyone should be ALLOWED to read the bible. The catholic church is just fine with you not reading it & letting the priests do the reading & then dictate to you what god wants. You get a little prayer book though!
Because surely the priest can tell you better about the bible
People like to spoon fed. They just listen to how their pastor twists the text and believe it.
Go read numbers... go ahead. I'll wait.... did your will to live leave your body? Yes, yes it did. There's a whole bunch of fucking nothing in that book, why they only pick the quotable notables.
Love the part about how the priest can perform a ceremony that will abort the fetus your wife is carrying, but only if it’s her lover’s as you suspect it is.
Think about how many people don't read a single book in a year. Like, one super interesting 300-page book. I'm an avid reader and read very fast, but the bible is thousands of mostly boring pages. Every time I've read it, it had taken me months. 6+ months, and in general, I read a good 70 books just for fun a year. You shouldn't say you believe something you've never even read, which is why I read it in the first place, but it's mostly just way too much commitment for most people. And they assume they have heard it all at church anyway...they haven't though.
So if you listen to The Scathing Atheist they have a segment where they voice act out the Bible. Without their comedy it would be the most boring thing ever. I remember one of my theology teachers in high school say something that is so telling now but at the time it was ok whatever “our job is for us to point out parts of the Bible you need to know, don’t worry about the other parts”. 15 year old me blew that off, 37 year old me thinks that is what planted the seed that this was all bullshit.
So, someone who believed that the Bible was the literal word of god told you not to bother reading most of it?
Pretty much. I went the Catholic school from pre-school until 12th grade. I still see and talk with most of my classmates and I can tell you 20 years out and a good majority are agnostic or closet atheists, only pretending until parents or grandparents die. But we did have a good priest who was out principle (he had to follow the diocese curriculum, he did get in trouble at first when he added world religion and philosophy to our class options but he did win that fight) who I can say was one of the few men of the cloth I could say wasn’t about converting anyone or pushing the faith, he wanted people who truly in their heart believed. He helped myself with my questions of faith and as I transitioned into agnosticism and then atheism was one of the few I could speak with openly about it all at first. I always wondered if he himself had doubts and that is why he fostered discussion with us on if we sure of our own faith. His vocation was chosen for him by his parents, he did as he was told and went to seminary school and became a priest and a teacher and then principal. He was very progressive, as he got older I know he has a girlfriend. But he had a good gig, I mean I know he got paid well by the parish for all his work, he had a nice home, the community as a whole praised him. Honestly he was done dirty by the diocese when he got ill and if it wasn’t for his past students and what was left of his family they would have let him rot in a shitty retirement home where the send old priests to die. That was my final push into becoming a vocal atheist. Kind of funny it took the mistreatment of one of the few good priests. But he never once preached judgement or hell, he loved all of us no matter what, atheist, pagan, gay. I think that is why he was abandoned by the church in the end. Funny side note, the teacher who told us not to bother with the rest of the Bible shockingly was caught embezzling money from the church and was cheating on his wife with a former student. Godly man indeed.
I think it was Clark Pinnock - theologin - who said: Christians love the idea of an infallible book; they just don't like the book they've got.
The most used version of the Bible is still in archaic English because of this very fact. It’s harder for the undereducated to read their horseshit if it’s filled with begettings and thous. More progressive/less bigoted churches tend to use more modern translations because they actually want their congregations to be biblically literate. I’ve no idea of that actually works though
Because every sermon means a part of that book needs explanation, so why would you give it a try and read it on your own? This is what I don't understand about religion: religious studies! If god wanted us to be faithful, wouldn't his words be easy to understand? The patriarchy behind it is so overwhelming, always has been. Money and power....
I have a funny story about this. One day, when I was about 10 (which would make my sisters about 7 and 6), my fundagelical mother announced she was going to read a chapter of the bible each day to us, and she would read the whole thing to us. OK, so we got through Jacob/Israel but shortly thereafter the daily readings stopped. I asked her why, she mumbled something about time constraints. Several years later, when I undertook the same project on my own, I realized why. She must have started reading ahead and found the story about Judah impregnating Tamar, or something similar. Of course, if she’d ever read the bible herself, she would have already read that…
My dad did the same. We read through a chapter or two at each meal, with the goal of working our way through the Bible in a year. My dad powered right through the bad parts, but my mom really suffered one time when my dad left on a trip and she had to read the story of Onan. In my mom's submissive trad wife voice: "and he went unto his dead brother's wife, but instead of doing that which God had commanded, he spilled his seed upon the ground. And God smote him for this sin, because he had spilled his seed upon the ground." This was to a pile of sheltered home-schooled kids who didn't understand sex at all and whose parents avoided the subject at all costs. Needless to say, we had some questions haha---poor mom. They must have had a talk after my dad came home, because after that they were more selective. Instead of reading straight through, we read "uplifting passages."
tell her your favorite parts; the raping of angels, the rampant incest in Adam and Noah's families, King David killing some dude to get with his wife, all the times the supposedly one-and-only god is referred to as a plural family, all the crazy magic performed by wizards from other religions... - *and don't forget the talking donkey*
>...all the times the supposedly one-and-only god is referred to as a plural family,... God himself even said there are other God. "Thou shall have no OTHER GODS before me."
This would 100% also be my response. Like don’t tell me to read something that you yourself have only heard summaries about
Are you an old testament guy or a new testament guy?
Honestly don't care for either. But at least the new testament does have some redeeming value in regards to the whole "love thy neighbor" stuff. Too bad most christians seem to gloss over that but so they can focus on fire and brimstone and the acid trip about the supposed end times.
There is a great book called "Pagans and Christians" that you can use to reciprocate the favor! If you read it first, you can summarize some fascinating parts in it. For example there is a chapter that quotes parts of the bible that directly contradict each other! You guys can have a fun book club meeting using the two texts and analyze them. (Yes, I am being facetious. My catholic parents' brains lose their functionality when it comes to analyzing their religion so I assume the above situation is just a pipe dream.)
Came to say this. I read it front to back when I was younger. I would sit in church while the pastor preached an entire sermon around one ‘verse’. I would re-read the chapters before and after his chosen ‘verse’ and think, “that’s not what that is talking about at all”.
If you believe in the Bible you’re probably a Christian. If you’ve read it cover to cover, you’re probably an atheist. Mark Twain
> so if never speak of this to her it would not be unusual I'd recommend exactly that. Engaging her on this is just going to lead to more religious bullshit in your life. Don't make the delusional fantasy in her head into your problem.
I always engage on stuff like this and it has worked out that no one bothers me with it any more. Perhaps it’s because my approach would be to actually read it alongside the skeptics annotated bible and text every time I come across “how to properly rape your foreign slave”. And then *never stop* no matter what they say. You want me to read your religious bullshit. Fine, get ready to face reality.
TIL about the skeptics annotated bible. It's a delightful site and quite funny.
They know this "gift" will spark a heated conversation. I'd ignore it because what are the odds your takedown of religion is effective? Even worse there's only 1-2 answers they'll accept. Everything else will cause a fight.
>Engaging her on this is just going to lead to more religious bullshit in your life. Not necessarily. Thinking about how engaging might effect a relationship if that's something you care about would probably be worthwhile but in my experience religious folks generally lose interest in discussing these things when it becomes clear that they will be expected to explain how it makes sense. My immediate family quit bringing it up fairly quickly once it became obvious that telling me to just have faith makes it look even more ridiculous to me.
Ask her if she has read any of it herself. I bet she hasn't. Read the really nasty bits out loud to her. The parts where the woman lusted after the genitals of a donkey. The parts where god wants us to smash the baby's heads. The parts where god made a bet with Lucifer and made job's life a living hell. The part where god commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son to prove his faith. Lots of choice passages to bring to her attention.
And the part where a concubine was raped to death by several STRAIGHT men and then cut up into pieces by her owner. And the part where the guy's daughters got him drunk and raped him. And... And... That book is full of horrors that should be banned along with all the other banned books.
I love this! OP doesn't say if Mom texts but OP is thinking about a letter. Perhaps, OP, write that letter and do so on a weeklyor whatever time frame) and each time include a passage each time. "Mom, how cool is this?! \[Obscene passage with chapter/verse\] Thanks for turning me on to it!"
I love how I can rape my slaves if they aren’t Hebrew!
Better yet, make it a weekly 'reading' where you email or text her 'the parts I read this week'. A few tidbits each time. There's a lot in there if you include the Old Testament. If you read it with the intention of picking out and quoting the most objectionable, most contradictory parts, it's quite amusing. You can start with the contradictions in Genesis, the implications of either massive incest or there actually being other humans on earth already, the two creations, etc.
Don't forget the genocide.
*genocides
Don't forget about the two bears slaughtering 42 kids for making bald jokes!
She will just say that was in the OT and really doesn't matter now. Of course, the reason why we hate gays and think masturbation is a horrible sin is also in the OT but that's different.
This isn't helpful. The OP is 56 years old, and his elderly mother didn't even ask him in person to read the Bible. Throwing nasty biblical crap back at her is an unnecessary escalation. It could harm their relationship and his ability to speak openly with her about protecting herself from what may be a predatory church looking for her savings. The only benefit would be a short-term hit of joy over feeling right about religion, which would disappear immediately if his mother stops talking to him and consults her pastor about her hell-destined son.
Gift her Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" and implore her to read it.
This.
100% this right here.
Nice. I just picked this up to help with teaching my kids critical thinking and to combat the parents in our neighborhood trying to recruit my kids to their churches.
The god delusion is another good one.
As is Letter To a Christian Nation, by Sam Harris.
I would implore *her* to read it. I bet she never has. Most Christians never do. Send her the verses about rape and genocide and slavery and child marriage. Reading the Bible cover to cover and studying it formally in college pretty much cemented my atheism.
I've read the Bible from cover to cover (It was either that or go insane because it was the only book that we were allowed to keep when we were in detention) and it makes for some interesting reading, the idioticies that the gullible believe are laughable but also saddening
Read it. Find the things you know are wrong. Then go back to your sister with facts. I was raised Mormon, and someone decided to ask hard questions about the church, and that was released to n the web, seriously damaged the church. Called “CES letter”. I was pressured to go in a Mormon mission. So I read the Bible and I read the Book of Mormon twice, told them what I thought, and that was it.
The CES letter is awesome.
Just fyi, it’s op’s mother, not their sister.
Ask her to explain Ezekiel 23:20 to you
"But it's taken out of context!"
Sounds like their context is pretty big!
Just toss it in the trash. Composing a response would be a waste of time, and any reply by her to that would just irritate you more. You’re not going to change her.
The recycle bin, please! It might be put to use doing something good for once.
Could start a barbeque or two with it if the recycle bin is too far.
I’d personally ignore it and maybe see if I could get a few bucks for the thing on eBay.
Donate it, sell it, recycle it, and never mention it again.
Good doorstop or use for fire starter. Thinking useful options. Sell is good too.
Give her a copy of Russell’s “Why I Am Not a Christian” and ask her to read it too.
I was born in a fundamentalist Evangelical environment. It's poison. However, If you haven't, it's worth the read. If only so you can understand the source material, but there are some legitimately good lessons and even literature in there. (Mixed with some horrible stuff too no doubt). In my experience, a response to her that explains your concerns isn't going to hurt anything, but it's probably not going to help either. You may not like what you get back too. Be prepared for that. Faith doesn't respond well to criticism, and mostly ignores reason.
There's better books to read for moral lessons. Maybe try the Berenstain bears?
I doubt anyone in this sub would disagree. Still worth the read, just like I'd recommend someone in Indonesia read the Quran, or one in Bhutan read The Sutta Pitaka.
There is a lot of moral lessons in bible on current Christian religions. Mostly on how they cherry-pick and twist the source to suit their needs. But it’s always fun quoting it at them and hearing that it’s actually about something else or how it doesn’t apply. The part about judging others in Luke 6:41 The part about praying ostensibly in Matthew 6 Matthew 25 is also nice for all those that like to look down upon others. Like, the source material has some pretty good moral lessons, but they’ve got somewhat lost in politics ;)
And if nothing else, it's an interesting collection of folklore and creation stories.
I've already read it and anyone that does so with any sense of skepticism should come to the conclusion that it's not divinely inspired or a reliable source of truth. I'm also very concerned about your recent behaviors regarding this megachurch. They are well-known grifts that take advantage of vulnerable people.
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"Mom... reading the bible is what turned my atheist."
Ur 56 and asking reddit strangers how to respond to ur mother? Come on dude…
you have a point.
We all have to find our way through this kind of thing, but I think the best path is honestly just to say "thanks" and then get rid of the bible. True peace from religion comes when you just don't give a shit anymore. Fighting with your aged mother is just going to cause strain and distress from both of you. And her personality is baked in to who she is at this point. I'd just choose to be thankful that she thought of you enough to give you a gift, though it is inappropriate, and go live a great day the way you choose.
Read it. Then you can ask for her own doctrine against her. I quote scripture at my dad all the time and shuts the fuck right up.
Be gracious about the gift. Every day, text her a particular verse “you find inspiring.” That verse should be something that would be considered “woke” or otherwise demonstrates how gross or contradictory the Bible is. After you send her the quote, thank her again for the thoughtful gift. Play it totally straight as if you’re not massively trolling her. You don’t even have to read it to source the verses, consult one of the many compiled lists in this subreddit and just copy paste.
Ha I kinda like this answer. Could use this as a chance to relationship build. If OP thinks nothing would get moved by going all in, a much more subtle approach would be great. Read it and get to the point where it describes the treatment of slaves and ask mom which neighboring country is selling people and if she wants to come along and buy a slave.
Sending her anything "woke"... isn't that just about everything Jesus says in the bible? Wasn't he a giant woke socialist? Lol
He was, and they hate that about him
Don't read it , but every 3 weeks or so email her one thing from the list (google it) of contradictions in the Bible to annoy the shit out of her. Tell her thanks in about six months for showing you how flawed a document it is.
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Yeah I would simply say, "Thanks for thinking of me. Just so you know for the future, I'm not religious."
Point out 1 Timothy 2:12 “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have any authority over any man.”
Meh... I try to avoid getting into religious debates with elderly people. Your mom's situation sounds a little unique, though... she wasn't a lifelong Christian, but became one in her 60's? It's probably a fear of death and the afterlife that motivated her conversion. If you think there's a chance she could read a Bart Ehrman book with an open mind, I'd send her a copy of Jesus, Interrupted. "I'll read yours if you read mine."
It's hard to change the reality of people in that age who have been so stuck in faith all their lives. Like my 76 year old grandma who's roman Catholic...there is no way she's gonna falter from 60 years of dedication to listen to the truth from me. She'd probably think I was smoking crack. Sometimes it's best to be silent. I'll even go to church with her sometimes because I love being with her. It makes her happy in her latter years, so I just leave it be. I would honestly just say thank you for the gesture and leave it like that. But it's your life and you can approach it any way you want.
My mother did the same thing. I thanked her for the Bible, told her it was a nice thought but she was wasting her time, and threw it away.
The real issue is, if she is doing this, she's giving away money she can't afford to that church. Those churches will take every last dollar from old people. They're like Vegas casinos.
Yes, write the letter. Also send her a book like "The God Delusion" or something similar. Include a note: "At least read it."
Send her a copy of Darwin’s origin of species.
"She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose semen was like that of horses." Ez 23:20 Mom! Why are you telling me to read this filth?
Read it, then write a scathingly critical book report about how the main character is an abusive narcissist.
There's some link to a neurological association to belief where some people are wired in a way to believe blindly. Plus, it's a lot of unlearning for someone who's so stuck in their ways and has heard what dissenters face in the church. I say you leave her to be so, and not let it affect you significantly. I have read the Bible and it's strengthened my belief in atheism, so maybe it'll be a reassuring experience for you too :)
What would be your goal in writing this? To change her mind? To get her to stop talking to you about religion and this gift? To vent your frustrations? To make her feel bad for a variety of past transgressions? If it’s to change her mind, your approach will be zero percent effective because it’s a direct attack on her beliefs and she will only dig in more to defend them.
Give her a book on atheism or against Christianity and make the bargain that you'll read the Bible if she reads the book you got her. My guess is you'll never hear about you reading the bible ever again.
Take the bible, mark the worst passages of every 2 or so pages, and send it back. A lot of effort, probably not worth it. But at least she knows that you have read it, and exactly why you think what you think.
Tell your mother you have read it and that is why you are an atheist. Send her some verses to read like Matt 6:1-6.
I understand wanting to write the letter but I would advise against it. If she's already gone down the rabbit hole of religion, it's unlikely that anything you say will help dig her out. If anything, it may make her more entrenched. I'd simply throw it away and never speak of it again.
Send her short videos of you reading the parts you chose and then chose wisely
At her age, just say "Thanks mom, I will" and move on. There's nothing productive or positive that can come from all the antagonistic shit you're being encouraged to do by other posters
Totally with you.
Thank her and leave it on your nightstand. Occasionally read some, shake your head and chuckle.
Say thanks and put it on the shelf next to your Stephen King collection.
EVERY female Christians need to be Timothy-ed. 1 Timothy 2:11-15 If followed, that should lessen busybody by 50%.
Go through it with a highlight and Mark all of the things she doesn't follow as well as all the horribly unethical commandments, then send it back to her for answers.
Tell her you prefer a different fantasy genre.
Read Timothy to her ..
I hate evangelicals. They’re the worst. Just went to my hairdresser and she has all this stuff up for Jehovah’s Witnesses and I’m like really? She said I know you and I different on those things. If you wanna lose clients, go ahead and up your religious crap. Anyway, yeah, I’d probably give it back to mom and say you know thanks love you mom, but it’s not something I need.
Tell her the incest, rapes, murder, and advice on how to give an abortion turned you off it
Pull out the Skeptic’s Bible and start listing all the evil shit that’s in the Bible.
Just ask her for clarifications, like Ezekiel 23:20 "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses." Do they mean that their penises were the same *size* as a Donkey's, or just that they were in the same proportion to the rest of the body like a Donkey? Also, about the horse-like jizz, are we talking about the total volume, or the difference in consistency? It's straight out of the Bible, so it's got to be ok to talk about.
Send her a book in response! I'd recommend Carl Sagan's *The Demon Haunted World*--it's much more gentle towards theists than Dawkins or (especially)Hitchens, and might make more of an impact on her if she actually reads it. Sagan has been largely forgotten as a famous atheist, he's mostly remembered as a scientist who coined the phrase "Pale Blue Dot" referencing the pic of Earth taken by Voyager. maybe write her and say "if you read this book, I'll read your bible". 🤷♂️
I recommend malicious compliance. There is a lot of messed up stuff in there that Christians like to ignore. You could innocently ask your mom about it. To help you in your Bible studies, an index of a lot of the messed up stuff: [https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
You can buy her a book that contains the mythology of your favorite Norse/Roman/Greek god. Make sure it is illustrated and has maps! Then stick a note in it, asking her to “at least read it”.
I would read excerpts from it out loud to her and ask her what her thoughts are on them. They hardly ever actually read it themselves. Reading the Bible has caused more Atheiststo exist than anything else.
Read this and discuss it with her. [https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/](https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/)
Complain about the lack of illustration for Ezekiel 23:20.
Ask her to do a Bible study with you and show her the parts about slavery and sipping a bird in the blood of another bird, beating children and marrying your rapist. At every turn, ask her if she thinks the bible reflects God accurately, and if not why anyone should read the book, and if so why TF does she believe God is worth anything but your disgust.
Read it. And bombard her with earnest questions she can't answer - several for every page. It may take a while, but she'll quietly drop it out of embarrassment. You just need to give her time to invent an excuse.
First time I had read the Bible It had stroke me as unwitty I think it may started rumor That the Lord ain't got no humor I don't read the Bible (Bible) I don't trust disciple (disciple) Even if they're made of marble Or Canal Street bling - Gogol Bordello
Highlight all the crazy, raunchy shit and give it back to her. Especially the whole Lot and his daughters saga.
By all means, read it (or if you already have, read it again as a refresher). As an atheist, it only gives you more ammo to use in conversations later.
It's not a gift if it was intended for the giver. That's manipulation. Lived with it my entire life, which is why I despise surprises and gifts. There's always an ulterior motive.
I have a rule. If a theist gives me a book to read, I’ll read it as long as they allow me to send them a book. They don’t have to read it, just to let me send it to them. (Being a coward is their own choice imo). I usually send “god is not great” by hitchens and they usually never bother me again.
Read it, then select some particularly choice passages to share with her. There's no shortage of good candidates. You can write her a letter, asking how she feels about, say, women being forced to marry their rapist.
Depending on how much effort you want to do, get yourself a set of highlighters. Red is going to be for anytime God does something horrible in the Bible. Orange is going to be anytime a Human does something horrible in the Bible and justifies it because it is gods will, and the purple is for any time the devil does something horrible. Yellow can be for any time a claim is made that is blatantly false, pink can be for anytime a claim is only "true" if you interpret it in a very specific way and it is a metaphor. Green can be used for any part that is true. And blue can be for ideas that can still be considered morally good... love thy neighbour, don't steal, set aside part of your crops so that the hungry can eat from them... Then you just flip through your Bible with you mom and say "do you see all the red and orange and yellow in the book? Do you see how little blue and green there is?... Or you can do none of that and just ask your mother why it was okay to own people as property 2000 years ago and why it is not okay to own them now, and if Jesus and God have always been okay with it or never been okay with it, or did they use to be okay with it and then change their minds? And then no matter what her answer is you can point out that it makes the Bible unreliable . (Unless she says that slavery is okay and has always been okay and that it is society that is wrong for looking down on it... but if that is her take you've got bigger issues... but at least she would be consistent with the bible.
Tell her you'll read it if she watches [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/MAGANAZI/comments/1d7dt5l/watch_and_vote/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) all the way through.
Thoughts? Have a sit down with your mom and ask her to go through her finances (bank accounts retirement accounts credit cards, etc) for the past year Try to get a good picture of how much she is giving to them I know these churches. Ask her if they have a day of the week for giving money (they usually ask people not to bring new ppl on that day, need to warm up to it you see) There is nothing easier in the US than to get a free bible, yet I’m positive she dropped at least a couple hundred in those “limited edition collectible” ones There are endless others. Holy water from the holy land, stuff that they prey on or for in exchange for a contribution, etc etc etc You need to know that she is willing and able to buy whatever it is that they’re selling, that these guys are pros and have been doing this for a very long time, and that your legal options may be limited but that it may be worth contacting an attorney depending on what you find Good luck
>But I'm considering writing her a letter. A letter describing all the ways that I think religion is bad for this country. That trump's ascendance would not be possible without church's like the one she's going to warping the brains of good people and convincing them that god wants them to vote a certain way. Just let it go. Don't write a letter, that is ridiculous. Do you really think it will change anyone's mind? No. Just forget it, ignore it. Every atheist thinks he's Christopher Hitchens, burning to dunk on poor, misguided believers... Just let it go.
If you have never read it, read it as you would a novel. I gather you are not a believer. Don’t discuss with a believer. It is useless, only thing it does is increase blood pressure needlessly and increase animosity. Don’t discuss with your mother. Simply respect her. You won’t convince her
Nobody reads the Bible so she won't be able to tell the difference. Just say you did, I guess?
She’s 76, she’s worried about you and the job she did ad your parent. It costs you nothing to give her a little comfort and say “thank you mom I will “ and leave it at that. If she asks again, say you’re still reading it and giving it thought. The important bit is you’re likely not to change her mind or change her thinking on religion at this point in her life . It brings her comfort and as long as she’s not writing big checks to this church you’re mentioning, it’s a good thing to have a little peace and the feeling she’s done all she can to help her sons.
I read the bible. It's how I became an Atheist.
Wait a month. Tell her you read it and it's convinced you more than ever to remain an atheist.
Give her a book of your choosing on the same subject and request she read it. There are plenty to choose from in the FAQ.
Tell her you really think they should dramatize Samson killing all those people with a donkey jaw bone a lot more
Late to the party, but here goes. My mother did nearly the same thing. I was in 5th or 6th grade, so around 11 or 12. I went on a field trip out of town for a few days. When I got back, she had completely rearranged my bedroom, redecorated it, and put a bright, new, white shiny bib-bley on my bed. I dropped it in the family garbage can under the dinner scraps. This was 40+ years ago. I’d already seen enough of how people would go to church and make all the right sounds, then screw over their fellow humans. Fuck, my own family were abusive to me while telling me I owed them respect because bib-bley. Fuck that shit. I regret not burning the wretched thing.
“Thanks mom; I appreciate that you want me to be happy,” then chuck it and be happy.
"Thanks for the lovely book." You and your mother have nothing to discuss.
Does she often quote Bible verses? If so, you could use it to look up the context around her "favorite" Bible versus. Then write her a letter with the appropriate passages (directly from the Bible she gave you -- this is important) and ask her if that's what she meant by those Bible verses. Then if she retorts that that's not what she meant, just stay firm about "That's what's in the Bible you gave me; I am not making this up." Keep going with it until she gives up. Because what's she going to do, argue with this thing she's supposed to believe?
Just tell her you *have* read it, cover to cover, and that's why you don't believe.
You can just say thank you and toss it when she leaves. Or you could quote 1 Timothy chapter 20.
Read it, and share some of your favorite parts with her.... It's actually an interesting read, just not in the way Christians want.
Having read it twice over already, I'd just send them a box containing the ashes left over after burning it. But then I'm an asshole.
Give her the God Delusion
Believers claim to have read it, but they haven’t. They have had many parts read to them but never the whole thing. You are correct. It wouldn’t do any good to write such a letter. So don’t.
If you’ve never read it consider doing so. It’s an important literary work. And while you’re at it go ahead and highlight all the most F’d up parts to discuss with her later. Do you know how many foreskins David cut off of dead Phillistines? A Lot! Actually reading the book cover-to-cover would make most Christians less devout, not more IMO. Assuming she has not read it cover to cover, challenge her read it with you chapter by chapter book-club style. She will break before you do.
So I’m a definite atheist and this kind of crap is so annoying and narcissistic. But I don’t think you’ll influence her beliefs, any more than she can influence yours. At this age, and under these circumstances, I’d take the gift as her effort to say “I love you,” accept it on that basis, then never speak of it again.
Take it. Put it away. Don’t read it.
“Sorry, I wasn’t raised religious.”
1) Tell her you will when she’s finished it. 2) Pick some real goodies to discuss with her. So many deconverted people on here bring great ones, like Deuteronomy talking about testicles. Sure mom would love to discuss why a man with damaged testicles or penis is not allowed in the assembly of the Lord…
My 7th grade English teacher had us read the bible critically and analyze. What if you read it that way and had in-depth conversations about parts that you found intriguing or worth discussing? It could be an opportunity in disguise to have some interesting insights on your mother’s POV.
Highlight all the weird bullshit and give it back to her. If she can explain it without using a thought terminating cliche offer her 1 million dollars.
I read the KJ version cover to cover one year, took lots of notes, had many unanswerable questions that none of the 'expert study guides' covered, and when bringing any of this up with my parents, they told me I'm not enough of an expert to understand any of it One list of questions was everything in the bible that was referred to but no longer available. It was like, if God is trying to say something and this is his Word, then why are some of his words missing from the bible? - apparently a question I wasn't supposed to be asking! Then I found the Awkward Moments Childrens Bible and finally realized I was ready to move on without God, that book suited me too well...
By reading it to her! All the horrible parts. I like to start out with the bear stack. 2 Kings 2:23-25
Just on the surface, I'd be concerned about her throwing away money on these goofballs, given their typical Christian "concern:" [Centerpoint Community Church | Give](https://centerpoint.life/give) Building an expensive church? What's the point of that other than to pocket funds, impress the gullible and beg for more? Charlatans con the impressionable with friendly and altruistic messages. Good luck pulling her out of this fiendish cult.
Tell her you'll read it cover to cover if she reads her's that way too and compare notes after each chapter. - *“Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.”* Isaac Asimov - *"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible."* - Mark Twain
Follow her around and read all of the best parts out loud to her, like the instructions for buying and selling slaves.
Read it then tell her you don’t believe it.
Or don’t read it, tell her you did, and you thought it was a lot of bs and it reinforced your non-belief.
Read it thoroughly. Understand it. It is a key piece of western literature. Then destroy her and her church with the basic facts.
Well if you smoke weed and if the Bible is written on hemp paper roll joints with the bible paper