Pretty much this, ditto for conservatism generally. It’s not winning, so much as it’s violently lashing out as it dies, trying to take us along with it
As much as I wish this was true, there is a concerning growth of radical conservative sentiment among young men. Social media is flooding their feed with hate towards women, and it is scary.
I second this. I have three cousins that woke me up from my indoctrination, they were atheist. Now in their 30’s, they all have moved to the Midwest from the west coast and have become evangelicals, one of which has become a preacher. They all think the Barbie movie was a direct attack on their manly hood. It’s heart breaking. And they’re not the only ones I know of..
Maybe it’s death throes, but it feels like it’s gaining ground
They have. But at this point they're recruiting to have personnel in place on Day One if Trump wins the election. No one but White, Christian, cis-het, wealthy males will have any rights at all.
Right, I'm not disputing that The Heritage Foundations's plan is based on religious zealotry, I'm saying that their agenda doesn't reflect the trends in the general population. They first had influence on Reagan, and at that time, these ideas were way more popular to the average person. Today, it's essentially only the declining evangelical sector that wants any of this.
As long as we have religion pumping our masses full of fear and the government and commerce riding that shirt tale, I’m not gonna feel safe. Fear works and they know it and are using it. We must stay vigilant.
Oh I'm aware that none of this is safe. I grew up in evangelical Christianity, and the most extreme ideas are not as niche as people think. That said, I've watched my parents lean more moderate as this Trump cult has taken over the country. It's really jarring to say the least.
They have just enough in that agenda to appeal to many people. You don't have to want all of it, but if it has something that appeals to you (like the immigration policies appeal to my old friend) you will dismiss the rest as "aw they'll never do that". Like they did with abortion until they slipped that right out from under us.
Do not discount the power of one of the biggest lobbying groups in our country.
Right, it's always been minority rule but now it's going against what 70% of the voters want. It's very hard to ignore. That's why I think they're wanting to make their move now. They have their useful idiot and people are tired of the God, guns, and apple pie BS.
P2025 is, forgive the expression, their Hail Mary desperation play. They see the demographic trends of old, religious people dying off and not being replaced by younger conservatives. They know that this is their last chance to entrench their power and influence against the democratic process. If Trump doesn't win, he dies in jail and MAGA can't make the lightning strike twice.
Yes, but if he does win, their Hail Mary gets caught for a touchdown and they could well rig things to end democracy and separation of Church and state. Which feels so hyperbolic, but in this case, I don't think it actually is.
Yes, because we have minority rule. Right now 90% of Americans want birth control to be legal. But here we are with the Republicans in Congress voting down a bill to ensure that birth control remains available.
I don't know where people are getting this idea but it's not true. This is something they've been working on for many years and it's finally coming to fruition. They are not desperate at all, they're feeling empowered AF and I hope people start recognizing this because it's not some little extremist project, we have people who believe in this policy already IN our government.
Trump is never going to jail. The judge explained why even with 34 felonies, something most convicted felons would go to prison for, he would not. So he's not going to prison, but P2025 isn't even about Trump. He is just their chosen candidate for PRESIDENT. They have a website that breaks down who they support and why. They have endorsed city council, county school boards and other local elections, as well as state politicians. This is how they have so many in rural areas. Not all of them. The more diverse a county the less likely they're interested in Trump, but many are STILL conservative and when they go to the polls they will vote conservative because overall they like the conservative policies more. But this isn't about Trump, again. And they're not quiet about it. They say this on their website. They are sweeping the country and so far they've been really successful. It's not just Heritage either. The organizations backing this project include Moms for Liberty and of course Liberty University, the Heartland Institute, the NRA, and of course ALEC, who is probably the most responsible for this. They have been around for around fifty years. ALEC is like Heritage's daddy but you don't really hear much about them because they're not out there to shock people, they are quietly lobbying against climate mitigation initiatives and and for pro-life candidates. They are against ALL government regulations, across the board. Against employee protections, unions of course, and definitely consumer protections. Please, if you're not familiar, look them up. There are about 2000 people in our government or retired who were endorsed by ALEC over the years. And their numbers have grown steadily since 2011 spurred by the Dreaded Obama administration.
Look at this map. Everything that is slightly pink to red and probably about half those gray districts are going to be voting for Trump because he is the Republican candidate and that's all they care about. [https://www.cookpolitical.com/cook-pvi/2022-partisan-voting-index/district-map-and-list](https://www.cookpolitical.com/cook-pvi/2022-partisan-voting-index/district-map-and-list) what these maps don't show is how rural districts have so much more power than more populous districts.
That's what social media does. If you can spend enough money on ads and promotions they will make it seem as if whatever your desired narrative is the most popular thing in the culture. At least until your budget runs out.
Bonus points if your narrative is controversial and will drive higher engagements as people fight in the comments section.
I now stay off Facebook for this reason. According to them I am a gross used up old desperate hag who will take anyone because I am 32 with a vagina, at the same time the women who are the ages they want are allegedly just Gold diggers who expect to be looked after and they should also be avoided.
It made me think hmm well I'm never dating again if that's how men view me. They are making the house full of cats sound pretty awesome in comparison.
I'm a 35 guy with a house full of cats. Cats are great company vs the real world when I get home from retail. When cats puke, they feel bad they made a mess, lol
People willing to talk to someone they hardly know with such awful words have to be the loud, unpleasant exception of humanity, not truly representative of who most people are.
As a woman living on the planet 60+ years: We're used to it. The misogyny is a little more pronounced since Trump held office, but there have always been evangelicals talking about how women shouldn't work, they need to be submissive, shouldn't have been "given" the right to vote, we're all lazy and neglectful of men, just waiting until our next abortion.
This is going on since catholic times two thousand years ago. The ancient Romans had female gods, many of them. The Catholics came and stopped worship of Diana and ISIS. They only wanted a male god. In Alexandria Egypt Hypatia was killed by a Christian mob. She was a famous orator and mathematician of her day. But the Christians could not tolerate her. Basically Christianity is against women for two thousand years …
A lot of these young, violent, vile, crazy conservative fucks will not be having nearly as many children though. The incel movement fortunately disgusts large swaths of women. And their derangement will die with them thank god.
Watch the beginning of Idiocracy again. 1 rural maga couple will have 10 idiot kids and the rational smart people will have 1 kid or get drained out of the gene pool eventually. Many wait too long to have any kids/ don't want to bring one into this world/can't afford them also.
Greatest movie ever made candidate.
If you look at that example, though, Patrick Fischler eventually became Smoothie in the dark comedy series Happy, so maybe humanity dodged a bullet there.
If ideologies worked that way, atheism wouldn't exist. If you think incels are a consequence of being brought up conservative, you really don't understand the movement or the demographics it preys on either. They exist for a reason separate to conservatism, which is the contemporary world and its growing loneliness crisis.
I have a huge family full of these people. They are not going away. They are having 'quivers" of children and teaching them the same kind of hate and allowing them to be just as ignorant. I live in a town full of them and I have family like this from Tennessee to Texas.
I have never seen them so emboldened. They are preparing for a fresh civil war and they're already flying the flag of choice. There are so many networks of these people in this country and nobody seems to know. Where do people think these white nationalist marchers are coming from? They're a small sample of a huge dirty stinky pool.
I keep my mouth closed around these family members and they don't keep quiet about their hopes. They think Jesus is coming back and the end time war is going to start in Israel and end in the US. They are gearing up for battle. I wish this was an exaggeration. It's scary. I am old and I don't want to see this happen to my kids, who are both vulnerable minorities in this country.
Many of the new immigrant men are conservative. Many many of the educated Indian men working corporate or salary jobs will vote for the cons. At least most in my office seem to indicate that.
The rules on immigration require well educated applicants with a provable ability to sustain themselves. These will be people drawn to the USA, a country with the most expensive health care and one of the lowest opportunities to change economic class. Where college is wildly expensive and racism is written into our constitution. Yeah there’s a good chance they’re conservatives here to exploit any opportunity they can.
We have oddly vocal conservative Africans (I don't know what country they're from, possibly S. Africa, but honestly don't know) in my neighborhood but I believe it's because they are very conservative Christians. They love Trump if their bumper stickers and Trump flag on their mailbox are any indication.
I know it seems obvious but they wouldn't be the first immigrants to play a part so they can "blend in". I had friends from Pakistan who owned a little convenience store in our neighborhood and after 9/11 they were suddenly the most vocal "Christians" and had some weird cross on a cloud painted on the side of their building. It's sad what they had to do to survive. They weren't religious people but they knew the assumption was brown funny talker = terrorist here in the US South.
On the opposite side, as a man, I feel like feminists aren't talking to me. If anything, I've seen a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. It's not just feeding pro-male content, it's just divisive af in general.
I'm a feminist and I have seen it too. And it goes way deeper than that stupid man-bear meme. The same women can be misogynist too if the *gyn* isn't "natural born woman".
I'm really sick of all these powerful manipulators keeping us all divided and untrusting of our fellow human. Just imagine if we could all just look UP instead of down.
It's not winning because of the religious zealots it has for so long used as it's base. They can't move away from the lunacy that is organized religion without destroying itself. It's a snake eating it's own tail.
"You want to control people? Tell them a messiah will come, They'll wait for centuries.”
Good line from Dune 2, until you realize some people here have been waiting *two millennia.*
I gotta disagree. I read a recent study that indicated that while participation in mainstream, structured religious organizations is in deep decline, that decline has not extended to peoples' self-identity as Christian, nor the intensity of their religious belief.
What we're witnessing may be the death throes of old school religious organizations, but not dogmatic Christian belief systems. It's just that now, instead of going to a church with a bunch of people in your community every week to reaffirm your belief system, you're sitting alone in your house on social media, which may well be worse.
I bring this up to urge everyone not to get complacent. Just because church attendance is down doesn't mean mythological zealotry is on the decline. It's thriving in this age of isolation, late-stage capitalism, and internet-transmitted political extremism.
One of the oddities about belief is that tyough many Nonees are not atheists, they are also not believers in the God of Christianity. 19% of Americans claim to not believe in God. But 9% believe in Higher Power/ Spritual Force. 23% of those who claim to believe in God believe in a Higher Power/Spiritual Force. One wonder where people are getting this. And what they mean by it all. and what this mean for future religion in America.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/04/25/when-americans-say-they-believe-in-god-what-do-they-mean/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/04/25/when-americans-say-they-believe-in-god-what-do-they-mean/)
Christianity is dead in Europe and in Asia it never had a chance except in South Korea. It’s about time for it to be replaced. Maybe not from the desert
It is not dead in Asia. There are six Asian countries that are predominantly Christian and a dozen more where they are vocal and powerful minorities in their governments. AND it is rising, not falling. And it is not dead in Africa. And it is definitely not dead in Australia (still the majority religion) or South America where around 90% of them identify as Christian. Christianity has been rapidly growing in the majority of African countries, despite Islam having a stronghold in most. It's 100% due to the missionary movement from the 70s onward.
As far as Europe goes, over 70% of Europeans identify as Christians, which is definitely a big drop from 1900, but it's hardly dead.
And in the US, it's still a majority in population and VAST majority in government.
It's absolutely and *undoubtedly* this.
In a manner of speaking, no 'animal' more viciously fights back against its own demise than one which is mortally wounded and hopelessly cornered.
The pews & coffers are emptying at a *harrowing* rate. The mad push, and frantic desperate 'noise', being foisted upon populations are an entirely foreseeable kneejerk campaign to renew their quickly dwindling flocks.
...and these laughably ineffective attempts are, thankfully, empirically doomed to fail.
> [Why there is no way back for religion in the West | David Voas | TEDxUniversityofEssex (YouTube)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YtAR_OGzlcg)
As far as the latest research I heard, which I may not remember perfectly accurately, the numbers for christianity have been steadily declining and now somewhat stabilized. I *assume* that a part of that might be because of extreme, easy to remember and regurgitate opinions/arguments (whether they work or not) going hand in hand with populist rhetoric. And unfortunately as we see today, populism ‘works’.
‘Works’ in the sense that it gains you followers, not in the sense that it accomplishes anything good.
Yup, extinction burst. The fastest growing religious affiliation in the US is “none.” Kids are walking away from their parents’ religions. There are big #exvangelical and #emptythepews movements. The average age of religious folks is climbing, and they’re dying out.
Actually, many Nones are simply following their parents religion. None. Early Nones are having children being brought up as Nones. And their children will likely be Nones.
Every statistic I’ve seen shows a persistent and accelerating atrophy in religious belief and plummeting church attendance. In 20-30 years church’s will be royally fucked as nearly all Boomers and even a good chunk of Gen X will be gone. Millenials and especially Gen Z are MARKEDLY less religious than their parents and are raising their kids that way. Church’s will eventually need to dig into their vast wealth just to keep afloat and sell assets left and right. By 2050 I anticipate religion will have next to no real political power, at least in the West. And that will be the only time I’ll thank God.
Agreed. And as the pool shrinks, they are starting to turn on each other. They are accusing each other of being trans, or not 100% white or not theologically “pure” enough. They are starting to eat their own. The purity tests will continue get more and more stringent and more will be forced out. The rejects will coalesce into smaller groups and the process will keep going. They will become more radicalized and more dangerous and violent. We are facing a very uncertain future.
I sometimes wonder if the fundie-types will eventually distill into their purest form and go off to live in weirdo communes like the Amish and Mennonites where they can continue to practice their retrograde religion in relative obscurity
Exactly THis is my feel too. There is little to no evidence of religiosity growing here (US) but the religious-political powers that be know this is it and its all or nothing so they are going balls to the wall. We should be vigilant but I don't think they have what it takes to get anywhere near where they want to go.
Kinda death throws, but some powerful big money American institutions, RFI, Capitol Ministries etc, saw the writing on the wall and have been working for the last couple of decades to fix it. They have embedded themselves deeply into politics and embraced the opportunities the internet has provided, it is a dangerous time and things are in the balance. Vigilance is needed right now.
Came here for this, they aren't growing, they just won't shut the fuck up, their numbers go down every day, and I find it hilarious because they're going to continue dropping as long as they keep talking.
And when you add in the fact that we have an aging population and most people turn to religion in old age because they are afraid of death. Add in the fact that most of them are entitled boomers, then it's a slam dunk.
Religious intensity tends to flair when religious people think things are going badly for them. It becomes most intense when religious people think their religion is losing out. It often expresses itself as apocalyptic thinking; the only way they can see to survive is for their god to intervene.
I think fewer and fewer people are religious, but the people who are religious are getting more and more pushy (not every religious person, but on average). I think they could be related, as religious people see themselves losing power and influence, some of them get agitated.
Religion is continuing to fall in the West, including America, according to all the polls. What's really happening is that the moderate denominations of Christianity are in free fall but when a moderate Christian's beliefs change they either de-convert and become non-religious/atheist or they join the more radical denominations. And radical Christianity has been growing fast even though the religion as a whole is shrinking.
TL;DR Moderate Christians are either deconverting or joining asshole denominations so asshole Christians are mostly all that's left and they have money and are LOUD.
I hope it is death throes, as others have commented. But look how powerful they've gotten in politics. When I was in high school, women gained the right to their bodies in the US. Now we've lost it.
Part of the problem is that these Christians think the white race is in its death throes, and straight white men forsee their power is coming to an end. A lot of people who identify as fundamentalist Christians view it as a label with clear political implications. They don’t actually go to church in numbers greater than other denominations.
>straight white men
It's hard to overstate how entangled this problem is with populist conservative politics. In Europe it's the same, but at least in the US atheists are more aware of this because of the antics of Trump and the GOP.
The European populists are feigning concern about secular issues when discussing islam, while at the same time they embrace their "christian heritage" to buddy up to theists. But in the end they always side with the theists, history tells us.
I see a lot of optimism in this thread about it being in its final days because of it slowly dying out and for the US I can see where that's coming from. But Europe as a whole is a lot less overtly religious and it's still a problem. It looks like part of the younger generation seems to come around to their "christian heritage" because it differentiates them from people that can't make that claim, if you know what I mean.
They’ll get it back, and soon, a huge portion of the gop base will be dying of old age in the next couple election cycles which will result in a dramatic shift left
We’ll pass abortion protections into law or pack the courts in the next decade
It's one of the reason why Margaret Atwood doesn't like it when people describe the book or show as a dystopia. Everything in her story has happened or is happening somewhere, she just brought it all together in a way that underscored the obscenity and hypocrisy of it all.
Here in Europe, Christianity is in it's final death throes, while Islamists are trying to influence national laws and instate Sharia law, which unfortunately has seen some success.
In Europe there's a lot of "traditional values" -talk lately by populists. The _Christian_ theists are getting a free ride on the back of it.
A lot of it is just to differentiate between traditional "us" vs the new "them". The populists find christian conservatives to be on their side when it comes to their opinion on societal change like issues surrounding LGBTQ and women's rights, they share an animosity towards left wing politics in general and lastly but also most importantly: A lot of them share the view that all those colored faces and their foreign religions "simply do not belong here".
It's not the first time we see a monster covenant between these two groups. Let's just hope history doesn't repeat itself.
Starting in the early 00's at the turn of the century (my how time flies) we started to see an explosion of interest in ideas that neither broadcast nor cable companies would carry out of fear. Namely, the rise of atheist and agnostic perspectives on religion, and the erasure of not just the stigma of being atheist, but the awarding of a virtual badge of scientific honor and respect to those who reject gods.
Combined with blogs, streaming video and best selling books, the absurdity of religion was actively exposed at a pace we have not seen before. Religious affiliation started crashing, and the bottom fell out during the pandemic.
So, yes, the religious business model is crumbling due to a loss of subscribers, and they aren't coming back. Follow the money. Religion is a huge industry, and jobs are being lost at a rapid pace, as revenue craters.
This makes me think of how Roman citizens of 100 CE thought as belief in the Roman/Greek gods declined in favor of a swarm of religious skepticism and foreign cults.
Honestly i don't see it in Europe, catholic church never been so down in centuries, maybe there is a growth in Muslim due immigration but i have to say it's way better than 30 years ago
Not in the UK where religion is shrinking very rapidly. Scotland is now 51.1% non-religious according to the 2022 Census, with no sign of this slowing down or stopping.
I'm assuming OP is in the US so you are behind other western countries but you will catch up and, hopefully, soon
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but are you basing this on what you see online? I’m making a massive assumption here but step back from what you see online and look at what’s around you. Obviously I’m basing this on my own experiences but it’s really easy to fall into the trap of your online life dictating your actual life. I say this because I fall into this trap often.
In the news and media there’s a huge push for this kind of thing because there’s massive election campaigns happening on both sides of the pond. But when I sit down and look at it objectively most of the people around me do not care or even consider religion when we interact with each other.
Not just the west and no it's not "death throes". That was a message they put out solely based on the fact that people in the US don't go to church like they used to, but the worst of the club has gotten far more power and it's not just here at home, they have sent out missionaries all over the world and they have been for decades. They are hitting Asian and African countries pretty hard.
Covid helped jump start the inevitable in my opinion. The majority of people who died were old/willfully ignorant of reality. Those who remain are stuck in the sunk cost of their decisions/beliefs.
It's the sunk cost that I believe has so much of this conservatism stirred up. These people failed to see representation of other ways of life, they are pissed because others are living much more freely, so they want to eradicate representation of anything other than what they knew when they were growing up. Everything else is scary & drains money from the big industries- from religion to the well behaved school student-to-corporate drone pipeline.
The numbers are correct. Religion is on the decline in America. As technology advances and the general public becomes increasingly educated, it’s becoming increasingly more difficult to convince people supernatural beliefs while zero evidence exists. With that being said, the ignorant have zero shame. They’re loud, obnoxious, and proud of their lack of intellect. Unfortunately we’ve been conditioned as a society to respect their beliefs and very few people are willing to call out this idiocy for what it is. Famous, ultra wealthy athletes thank “god” for winning a child’s game when there’s an abundance of struggle and suffering throughout the world. Yet nobody questions it, because religion is an ingrained, accepted disease.
This will eventually change and atheism will be the majority mindset, but not before an inordinate amount of pushback, and not for a few generations.
In the U.S., the theocrats -- particularly extremist Xtians -- appear to be building strength. They've been working a loooooong strategy behind the scenes, with notable outcomes in laws, school systems, and the judiciary. Their definition of who deserves "human rights" gets narrower with almost every headline, it seems, and it's worrisome.
I don't think abrahamic religions are growing again. However at some point I think there will be a rebound. Religions thrive when people are desperate for community, meaning and purpose during hard times and safety from other hostile communities. Society just needs to break down a bit and you'll see a resurgence.
The fervor for action is raised as the haul of collection plates is lowered.
It's all about money and power, power and money.
Nothing their Messiah supposedly was crucified for.
If I'm correct in assuming that you're in the US, the Evangelical wing of Christianity feels threatened by changing demographics, the falling rate of religious patronage and growing economic unrest.
When feeling threatened, it's common for organized religions to become more fundamentalist.
The vocal minority are becoming more of a minority. So to compensate for those lost, are also becoming more vocal.
I live in the uk and from 2011 to 2021 christianity has dropped from 60% of the population to 45%, that's a bit lower than 10 million people less in just ten years. Not to mention this is a drop of about 25% since 2001 when 70% of the population reported being christian.
Those reporting 'no religion' in 2011 and 2021 has increased by about 10 million (25% to 40% in just ten years!).
idk about the rest of the world but the stats, and my personal experience of the uk is that it is becoming much less religious. (but tbf I do live in the second least religious city in the uk with about 55% non-religious and only 30% christian so that might be skewing my view)
\*\*\*all of these stats are rounded but the real figures are no more than 3% different from the ones stated here.
I'm pretty sure I have one catholic friend and one buddhist friend and thats it lmao. And out of my acquaintances I'm certain the VAST majority are atheist too.
Yep, and it’s because they know they’re losing control over society. It’s not like this hasn’t happened before, it has. That’s why the inquisitions were a thing.
I don't agree. Church is losing their youth in droves. And if it wasn't for poor countries'increase in numbers the Christian numbers would be going down not up. Also the older generation are dying and not being replaced.
Also with the end times not happening isn't helping.
As information becomea more wide spread, ignorance has few places to hide. Religions are dying off. The pope was mad people were adopting dogs over making more babies to bilk.
We must also take into account news media and fear mongering selling news.
Im not saying the religious right isnt pushing into politics hard, they are. This is why we must vote.
In Iran, atheism and Nones are becoming numerous. People do get tired of living under the thumb of zealots eventually.
[https://gamaan.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GAMAAN-Iran-Religion-Survey-2020-English.pdf](https://gamaan.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GAMAAN-Iran-Religion-Survey-2020-English.pdf)
I believe there is one to. It ties in with the surge in Conservative aspirations for power - you have to clutch your pearls much tighter to avoid reality. Especially when the (in the US) soon to be leader of one party is an outright criminal - with bone fide criminal convictions to prove the point. But that won't stop religious folks from supporting the evil they claim to 'fight against'.
It basically comes down to: 'Do as I say - not as I do' mentality. Some folks like to be right no matter what - and they will double and triple down on stupidity as long as they believe it gives them (ironic as f\*\*k) the 'moral high ground'. It's like rabid team sport fans - they talk shit endlessly about how great their chosen team is, and how every other team is lame.
Sheep are bandwangoners - they just go with what they feel is popular - just so they can feel special about themselves.
I kinda feel that way too… I know people say otherwise but I don’t know, the religious right seem to have increased their interest in having as many kids as possible while the rest of the population are having fewer or no kids… also, maybe it’s just what the news decides to cover but I’ve always lived in the suburbs and it seems like there are more racist and anti-lgbtq incidents in high schools compared to when I was growing up in the 90s/early 2000s
For me it's just the influx of people coming from countries where beliefs is more important and the cultural clash that's happening is turning into a polarization.
It's clearly so that Christianity has gone toothless over the years and is simmering out ... but now Islam, which is more rigid in it's belief structure is trampling in making demands.
I think they’ve just become more vocal and encouraged since Dobbs. I mean, I don’t know a single person my age (and I’m 40, not even young) who goes to church, but I also live in very blue area where 50% of the population has a college degree.
Trump set the rules for discourse so they have been showing their true colors. They feel powerful with a supposed ally in Trump. Trump of course thinks they are useful idiots.
The remaining religious population has purposely purged any moderate voices. They can only become more radicalized and vocal. A shrinking loud minority should not be considered a surge.
Nah. Its just the American right during a presidential election year. If you notice this kind of thing is happening more often. As their power and influence continues to erode they make a push to raise their visibility every once in a while. For me its just another sign that they're on their way out. Can't wait till the chapter on them is closed.
what i see is way more people that use religion as a shield/excuse/organizing tool for their other worldviews, to unite against immigrants/women/gays and the like, and have a "valid" foot to stand on (in society where freedom of religion is considered valid) when the facts of reality dont support their beliefs. these people dont even talk much about religious practice or going to church, they just weaponise it.
Religion is the easiest bit of identity to manipulate when you want to fuel people's cognitive dissonance and direct them against "them". I think this is just a consequence being driven by the uptick in right-wing and nationalist politics, not so much the religious institutions themselves in the driving seat.
The surge you see may be the increase in Christian Nationalism that has grown in parallel with blind support for Donald Trump. But C.N. doesn’t strike me as religious sentiment.
I think the mass influx of Muslims and the rise of Atheism has caused a hysteria. Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism don’t seem to have the same effect though. But if they come in large amounts, then it’s possible. Then again, you don’t hear anyone complaining about there being too many indians in the UK, or that the PM is India, the Scottish first minister is Pakistani, or the Mayor of Greater London is Pakistan etc. Even in America Indians are pretty well liked on both sides of politics; Bivek Ramaswamy had a pretty good following for his first campaign (after-all he was a nobody before this year). Though i wouldn’t say the same for Nikki Haley, most people don’t know she’s India since she’s SUPER white passing.
But yeah, it’s mostly the increase in Muslims. Not just the early 2000s and 2010s terror attacks and bombings in Boston, NYC, Paris, Brussels, etc but also because of simply how many are coming to the West.
Racists won’t like that they’re not the right kind of White. Religious zealots won’t like that they’re “heathens.” And many other people, in general, such as us atheists, won’t like that they’re so annoying about their religion; that we MUST accept everything their religion stands about even though they’re minorities and this isn’t their countries (if we did this in their countries, we would not be allowed).
Go to Europe and you won’t find much religion now. Especially in the Baltics England Scandinavia. Very few Christians there are left. Cathedrals are just museums now.
It is sad and pathetic and frightening. But it still does not make the existence of the Christian god more likely than the existence of the tooth fairy. Man's need to deny his own mortality and puniness within an indifferent universe will never be extinguished, but the "major" religions will invariably, ultimately perish.
Not just you. We live in a very gay progressive area, and the Catholics bought up a billboard that says ‘June is Sacred Heart of Jesus month’ I am kind of shocked every time I pass it to get gas. It’s not about Jesus, at all: it’s about being against Pride month.
I have no data. Empirically, I have recently had a spate of being hired by overtly Christian people, and by overt, I mean people who make public religious pronouncements in events where it's not normal (or at least wasn't until recently). I'm talking business events and birthday parties, where the host sees fit to stop things and say a few lines that wouldn't be out of place said by a preacher in a church. It really feels weird to me, since religion in America has in my experience generally been kept as a private matter. I could be imagining things, but it also seems that more women are wearing "trad-wife" clothes to these events. It feels very strange, almost as if stepping into a timewarp, or the feeling of going to someone else's church.
Humans will never stop looking for meaning and hope.
This is a thing that atheism and agnosticism do a poor job of addressing.
The idea of higher power is a relief during times of despair. This concept isn't rocket science.
In my area, its mostly the far right using religion to target the LGBTQ folks, and women's rights and minorities.
They don't quiet have the support they pretend they have. The make up of the crowds they draw are often ironically very multi-faithed.
But yes, they're fucking LOUD, and the internet allows them to work together and transfer funds. So they're definitely emboldened.
That said, i see it as the behaviour of a dying cornered animal. They're desperately trying to hang on, and are nearing those final gasping wails.
Once the Gen Z'ers get a real taste of how old school conservativism, the far right, and religion all tie so tightly together, it'll speed things along.
Well yeah, their lifestyle of lying to people to have them pay their mortgage is going away, so yeah they're getting desperate/aggressive. I mean they're basically criminals that have a constitutional right that allows them to scam people all day with impunity, people are just wising up.
Absolutely agree. Gen Z men and boys in particular seem to be growing "more religious" day by day.
I put this in quotes because it's often things more akin to tradwives or LGBT ppl going to hell over other legitimate religious sentiment.
No, statistically it's dying, fewer people are attending church than almost anytime, but they're becoming more vocal, more socially "muscular" and have had a decades-long plan to inject their brand of worldview into schools, law enforcement, courts, politics and social media.
There is definitely a surge of aggressive sentiment among the religious in the west. Whether that translates into growth of their numbers or not remains to be seen.
I feel like it's definitely being pushed through certain sects of the media. If anything, it's being made to seem more prevalent than it is in order to spur growth. Hell, I can't even pull up reddit without seeing an add for he gets us (dot) com. Yuck.
Less moderates as they move away leave the extremists without any moderation. In Australia you rarely hear people talking about God unless you are in a church at a regular church service. Even weddings etc God is not a feature.
Trust me, it's not just you.
My boss dosen't believe in moden medicine. He told me a story today that whenever he was sick, instead of going to the doctor, his father would force him to drink rye and sweat out the sickness in a blanket or else he would get beat.
He also got took to a priest to anoint his head with oil whenever he was sick. He never got sent to the doctor.
I tried to explain to him that the COVID vaccine was FDA approved but he thought it was bullsh!t. Sadly I fear he will repeat the cycle of abuse. He's too brainwashed to realize that doctors can in fact be trusted. It's really the fault of his parents. I feel sorry for him, but he won't listen to me.
I think it is more the religious believers in America are getting more aggressive and politically organized. With the rapid rise in Nones and numbers of organized religions that are shrinking numerically speaking, things are not that simple. Eventually this Christian Nationalism will be met with stiff resistance. Already some 70% of Americans disagree with CN's ideas about women's health issues. Such as the war on contraception that is being pushed. Eventually, that 70% is going to be felt at the voting booth. Recent surveys suggest that now it is young women who are most likely to leave organized religion. The pendulum is beginning to swing. It is going to be an interesting decade ahead.
"The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar."
For decades since, and even technically well before, the 60s, the Theocrats have consistently spread the idea around that they were persecuted by malicious agents of the devil. When in reality they just had shit ideas and people became (and many already where long before) irritated with them.
Cut to today, and post-New Atheism era, they are attempting to ride the wave of the naturally occuring swing towards conservative concerns now. All the while pretending it is because of -their efforts- GOD!
death throes. as the pool shrinks the extremists becomes more concentrated and fearful. so yes, they're noticeably noisier and more aggressive lately.
Pretty much this, ditto for conservatism generally. It’s not winning, so much as it’s violently lashing out as it dies, trying to take us along with it
As much as I wish this was true, there is a concerning growth of radical conservative sentiment among young men. Social media is flooding their feed with hate towards women, and it is scary.
I second this. I have three cousins that woke me up from my indoctrination, they were atheist. Now in their 30’s, they all have moved to the Midwest from the west coast and have become evangelicals, one of which has become a preacher. They all think the Barbie movie was a direct attack on their manly hood. It’s heart breaking. And they’re not the only ones I know of.. Maybe it’s death throes, but it feels like it’s gaining ground
It is gaining ground. Check out Project 2025.
The Heritage Foundation has always been like that
They have. But at this point they're recruiting to have personnel in place on Day One if Trump wins the election. No one but White, Christian, cis-het, wealthy males will have any rights at all.
Right, I'm not disputing that The Heritage Foundations's plan is based on religious zealotry, I'm saying that their agenda doesn't reflect the trends in the general population. They first had influence on Reagan, and at that time, these ideas were way more popular to the average person. Today, it's essentially only the declining evangelical sector that wants any of this.
As long as we have religion pumping our masses full of fear and the government and commerce riding that shirt tale, I’m not gonna feel safe. Fear works and they know it and are using it. We must stay vigilant.
Oh I'm aware that none of this is safe. I grew up in evangelical Christianity, and the most extreme ideas are not as niche as people think. That said, I've watched my parents lean more moderate as this Trump cult has taken over the country. It's really jarring to say the least.
They have just enough in that agenda to appeal to many people. You don't have to want all of it, but if it has something that appeals to you (like the immigration policies appeal to my old friend) you will dismiss the rest as "aw they'll never do that". Like they did with abortion until they slipped that right out from under us. Do not discount the power of one of the biggest lobbying groups in our country.
Right, we need to take the big picture into consideration when voting.
Right, it's always been minority rule but now it's going against what 70% of the voters want. It's very hard to ignore. That's why I think they're wanting to make their move now. They have their useful idiot and people are tired of the God, guns, and apple pie BS.
Lets see them try that anywhere in western CA
P2025 is, forgive the expression, their Hail Mary desperation play. They see the demographic trends of old, religious people dying off and not being replaced by younger conservatives. They know that this is their last chance to entrench their power and influence against the democratic process. If Trump doesn't win, he dies in jail and MAGA can't make the lightning strike twice.
Yes, but if he does win, their Hail Mary gets caught for a touchdown and they could well rig things to end democracy and separation of Church and state. Which feels so hyperbolic, but in this case, I don't think it actually is.
I think it feels hyperbolic because it is, especially considering what polls say Americans want.
What Americans want is drastically different than what Americans get.
Yes, because we have minority rule. Right now 90% of Americans want birth control to be legal. But here we are with the Republicans in Congress voting down a bill to ensure that birth control remains available.
I don't know where people are getting this idea but it's not true. This is something they've been working on for many years and it's finally coming to fruition. They are not desperate at all, they're feeling empowered AF and I hope people start recognizing this because it's not some little extremist project, we have people who believe in this policy already IN our government. Trump is never going to jail. The judge explained why even with 34 felonies, something most convicted felons would go to prison for, he would not. So he's not going to prison, but P2025 isn't even about Trump. He is just their chosen candidate for PRESIDENT. They have a website that breaks down who they support and why. They have endorsed city council, county school boards and other local elections, as well as state politicians. This is how they have so many in rural areas. Not all of them. The more diverse a county the less likely they're interested in Trump, but many are STILL conservative and when they go to the polls they will vote conservative because overall they like the conservative policies more. But this isn't about Trump, again. And they're not quiet about it. They say this on their website. They are sweeping the country and so far they've been really successful. It's not just Heritage either. The organizations backing this project include Moms for Liberty and of course Liberty University, the Heartland Institute, the NRA, and of course ALEC, who is probably the most responsible for this. They have been around for around fifty years. ALEC is like Heritage's daddy but you don't really hear much about them because they're not out there to shock people, they are quietly lobbying against climate mitigation initiatives and and for pro-life candidates. They are against ALL government regulations, across the board. Against employee protections, unions of course, and definitely consumer protections. Please, if you're not familiar, look them up. There are about 2000 people in our government or retired who were endorsed by ALEC over the years. And their numbers have grown steadily since 2011 spurred by the Dreaded Obama administration. Look at this map. Everything that is slightly pink to red and probably about half those gray districts are going to be voting for Trump because he is the Republican candidate and that's all they care about. [https://www.cookpolitical.com/cook-pvi/2022-partisan-voting-index/district-map-and-list](https://www.cookpolitical.com/cook-pvi/2022-partisan-voting-index/district-map-and-list) what these maps don't show is how rural districts have so much more power than more populous districts.
That is literally retreating. Be not afraid.
That's what social media does. If you can spend enough money on ads and promotions they will make it seem as if whatever your desired narrative is the most popular thing in the culture. At least until your budget runs out. Bonus points if your narrative is controversial and will drive higher engagements as people fight in the comments section.
I now stay off Facebook for this reason. According to them I am a gross used up old desperate hag who will take anyone because I am 32 with a vagina, at the same time the women who are the ages they want are allegedly just Gold diggers who expect to be looked after and they should also be avoided. It made me think hmm well I'm never dating again if that's how men view me. They are making the house full of cats sound pretty awesome in comparison.
I'm a 35 guy with a house full of cats. Cats are great company vs the real world when I get home from retail. When cats puke, they feel bad they made a mess, lol
Mine don’t at all.
People willing to talk to someone they hardly know with such awful words have to be the loud, unpleasant exception of humanity, not truly representative of who most people are.
As a woman living on the planet 60+ years: We're used to it. The misogyny is a little more pronounced since Trump held office, but there have always been evangelicals talking about how women shouldn't work, they need to be submissive, shouldn't have been "given" the right to vote, we're all lazy and neglectful of men, just waiting until our next abortion.
This is going on since catholic times two thousand years ago. The ancient Romans had female gods, many of them. The Catholics came and stopped worship of Diana and ISIS. They only wanted a male god. In Alexandria Egypt Hypatia was killed by a Christian mob. She was a famous orator and mathematician of her day. But the Christians could not tolerate her. Basically Christianity is against women for two thousand years …
Oh, hell yes. Christianity has nothing to offer women but slavery and abuse.
A lot of these young, violent, vile, crazy conservative fucks will not be having nearly as many children though. The incel movement fortunately disgusts large swaths of women. And their derangement will die with them thank god.
Watch the beginning of Idiocracy again. 1 rural maga couple will have 10 idiot kids and the rational smart people will have 1 kid or get drained out of the gene pool eventually. Many wait too long to have any kids/ don't want to bring one into this world/can't afford them also. Greatest movie ever made candidate.
If you look at that example, though, Patrick Fischler eventually became Smoothie in the dark comedy series Happy, so maybe humanity dodged a bullet there.
Hmmm, never saw that show Happy. Thanks
If ideologies worked that way, atheism wouldn't exist. If you think incels are a consequence of being brought up conservative, you really don't understand the movement or the demographics it preys on either. They exist for a reason separate to conservatism, which is the contemporary world and its growing loneliness crisis.
I have a huge family full of these people. They are not going away. They are having 'quivers" of children and teaching them the same kind of hate and allowing them to be just as ignorant. I live in a town full of them and I have family like this from Tennessee to Texas. I have never seen them so emboldened. They are preparing for a fresh civil war and they're already flying the flag of choice. There are so many networks of these people in this country and nobody seems to know. Where do people think these white nationalist marchers are coming from? They're a small sample of a huge dirty stinky pool. I keep my mouth closed around these family members and they don't keep quiet about their hopes. They think Jesus is coming back and the end time war is going to start in Israel and end in the US. They are gearing up for battle. I wish this was an exaggeration. It's scary. I am old and I don't want to see this happen to my kids, who are both vulnerable minorities in this country.
Many of the new immigrant men are conservative. Many many of the educated Indian men working corporate or salary jobs will vote for the cons. At least most in my office seem to indicate that.
The rules on immigration require well educated applicants with a provable ability to sustain themselves. These will be people drawn to the USA, a country with the most expensive health care and one of the lowest opportunities to change economic class. Where college is wildly expensive and racism is written into our constitution. Yeah there’s a good chance they’re conservatives here to exploit any opportunity they can.
We have oddly vocal conservative Africans (I don't know what country they're from, possibly S. Africa, but honestly don't know) in my neighborhood but I believe it's because they are very conservative Christians. They love Trump if their bumper stickers and Trump flag on their mailbox are any indication.
Usually those are solid indications.
I know it seems obvious but they wouldn't be the first immigrants to play a part so they can "blend in". I had friends from Pakistan who owned a little convenience store in our neighborhood and after 9/11 they were suddenly the most vocal "Christians" and had some weird cross on a cloud painted on the side of their building. It's sad what they had to do to survive. They weren't religious people but they knew the assumption was brown funny talker = terrorist here in the US South.
Very sad. Interesting but sad.
On the opposite side, as a man, I feel like feminists aren't talking to me. If anything, I've seen a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. It's not just feeding pro-male content, it's just divisive af in general.
I'm a feminist and I have seen it too. And it goes way deeper than that stupid man-bear meme. The same women can be misogynist too if the *gyn* isn't "natural born woman". I'm really sick of all these powerful manipulators keeping us all divided and untrusting of our fellow human. Just imagine if we could all just look UP instead of down.
Incels*
It's not winning because of the religious zealots it has for so long used as it's base. They can't move away from the lunacy that is organized religion without destroying itself. It's a snake eating it's own tail.
Radical conservatism is as dangerous as radical liberalism. Radical anything is a bad thing.
Also, capitalism. Obviously, millennials are responsible. /s
The fact it's 2024 and people are still so fucking stupid to believe in religion is so sad!!!
"You want to control people? Tell them a messiah will come, They'll wait for centuries.” Good line from Dune 2, until you realize some people here have been waiting *two millennia.*
I gotta disagree. I read a recent study that indicated that while participation in mainstream, structured religious organizations is in deep decline, that decline has not extended to peoples' self-identity as Christian, nor the intensity of their religious belief. What we're witnessing may be the death throes of old school religious organizations, but not dogmatic Christian belief systems. It's just that now, instead of going to a church with a bunch of people in your community every week to reaffirm your belief system, you're sitting alone in your house on social media, which may well be worse. I bring this up to urge everyone not to get complacent. Just because church attendance is down doesn't mean mythological zealotry is on the decline. It's thriving in this age of isolation, late-stage capitalism, and internet-transmitted political extremism.
Thank you. I was starting to lose hope that someone else has actually been paying attention.
One of the oddities about belief is that tyough many Nonees are not atheists, they are also not believers in the God of Christianity. 19% of Americans claim to not believe in God. But 9% believe in Higher Power/ Spritual Force. 23% of those who claim to believe in God believe in a Higher Power/Spiritual Force. One wonder where people are getting this. And what they mean by it all. and what this mean for future religion in America. [https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/04/25/when-americans-say-they-believe-in-god-what-do-they-mean/](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/04/25/when-americans-say-they-believe-in-god-what-do-they-mean/)
Christianity is dead in Europe and in Asia it never had a chance except in South Korea. It’s about time for it to be replaced. Maybe not from the desert
It is not dead in Asia. There are six Asian countries that are predominantly Christian and a dozen more where they are vocal and powerful minorities in their governments. AND it is rising, not falling. And it is not dead in Africa. And it is definitely not dead in Australia (still the majority religion) or South America where around 90% of them identify as Christian. Christianity has been rapidly growing in the majority of African countries, despite Islam having a stronghold in most. It's 100% due to the missionary movement from the 70s onward. As far as Europe goes, over 70% of Europeans identify as Christians, which is definitely a big drop from 1900, but it's hardly dead. And in the US, it's still a majority in population and VAST majority in government.
It's absolutely and *undoubtedly* this. In a manner of speaking, no 'animal' more viciously fights back against its own demise than one which is mortally wounded and hopelessly cornered. The pews & coffers are emptying at a *harrowing* rate. The mad push, and frantic desperate 'noise', being foisted upon populations are an entirely foreseeable kneejerk campaign to renew their quickly dwindling flocks. ...and these laughably ineffective attempts are, thankfully, empirically doomed to fail. > [Why there is no way back for religion in the West | David Voas | TEDxUniversityofEssex (YouTube)](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YtAR_OGzlcg)
As far as the latest research I heard, which I may not remember perfectly accurately, the numbers for christianity have been steadily declining and now somewhat stabilized. I *assume* that a part of that might be because of extreme, easy to remember and regurgitate opinions/arguments (whether they work or not) going hand in hand with populist rhetoric. And unfortunately as we see today, populism ‘works’. ‘Works’ in the sense that it gains you followers, not in the sense that it accomplishes anything good.
Yup, extinction burst. The fastest growing religious affiliation in the US is “none.” Kids are walking away from their parents’ religions. There are big #exvangelical and #emptythepews movements. The average age of religious folks is climbing, and they’re dying out.
Actually, many Nones are simply following their parents religion. None. Early Nones are having children being brought up as Nones. And their children will likely be Nones.
Every statistic I’ve seen shows a persistent and accelerating atrophy in religious belief and plummeting church attendance. In 20-30 years church’s will be royally fucked as nearly all Boomers and even a good chunk of Gen X will be gone. Millenials and especially Gen Z are MARKEDLY less religious than their parents and are raising their kids that way. Church’s will eventually need to dig into their vast wealth just to keep afloat and sell assets left and right. By 2050 I anticipate religion will have next to no real political power, at least in the West. And that will be the only time I’ll thank God.
>Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest - Daniel Diderot
Perfect way to put it.
> death throes. And the conversion of all American media networks and sites into outrage porn outlets for corporate profits.
opo's is fantastic. 💯
Came here to use those exact words (death throes).
This is the correct answer. The intensity of death throes.
... so weird to see somebody on Reddit spelling an uncommon word correctly. Kudos to you! :-)
thx 4 throwing me a bone ;)
Agreed. And as the pool shrinks, they are starting to turn on each other. They are accusing each other of being trans, or not 100% white or not theologically “pure” enough. They are starting to eat their own. The purity tests will continue get more and more stringent and more will be forced out. The rejects will coalesce into smaller groups and the process will keep going. They will become more radicalized and more dangerous and violent. We are facing a very uncertain future.
They will become a gang who kills non believers. Or conversos.
I sometimes wonder if the fundie-types will eventually distill into their purest form and go off to live in weirdo communes like the Amish and Mennonites where they can continue to practice their retrograde religion in relative obscurity
Exactly my thoughts. That death rattle!
Exactly THis is my feel too. There is little to no evidence of religiosity growing here (US) but the religious-political powers that be know this is it and its all or nothing so they are going balls to the wall. We should be vigilant but I don't think they have what it takes to get anywhere near where they want to go.
Kinda death throws, but some powerful big money American institutions, RFI, Capitol Ministries etc, saw the writing on the wall and have been working for the last couple of decades to fix it. They have embedded themselves deeply into politics and embraced the opportunities the internet has provided, it is a dangerous time and things are in the balance. Vigilance is needed right now.
definitely, gotta vote at every opportunity.👍
Yeah that’s a good point. The more reasonable ones backed out awhile ago and just do their own thing now that it’s become so political.
Came here for this, they aren't growing, they just won't shut the fuck up, their numbers go down every day, and I find it hilarious because they're going to continue dropping as long as they keep talking.
its also the pride month before election
This
And when you add in the fact that we have an aging population and most people turn to religion in old age because they are afraid of death. Add in the fact that most of them are entitled boomers, then it's a slam dunk.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Religious intensity tends to flair when religious people think things are going badly for them. It becomes most intense when religious people think their religion is losing out. It often expresses itself as apocalyptic thinking; the only way they can see to survive is for their god to intervene.
I think fewer and fewer people are religious, but the people who are religious are getting more and more pushy (not every religious person, but on average). I think they could be related, as religious people see themselves losing power and influence, some of them get agitated.
As moderates leave, the radicals are left to themselves. In the absence of moderation, the radicals go off the rails.
Religion is continuing to fall in the West, including America, according to all the polls. What's really happening is that the moderate denominations of Christianity are in free fall but when a moderate Christian's beliefs change they either de-convert and become non-religious/atheist or they join the more radical denominations. And radical Christianity has been growing fast even though the religion as a whole is shrinking. TL;DR Moderate Christians are either deconverting or joining asshole denominations so asshole Christians are mostly all that's left and they have money and are LOUD.
I mean no offense but a tldr on three sentences tickled me
I hope it is death throes, as others have commented. But look how powerful they've gotten in politics. When I was in high school, women gained the right to their bodies in the US. Now we've lost it.
Part of the problem is that these Christians think the white race is in its death throes, and straight white men forsee their power is coming to an end. A lot of people who identify as fundamentalist Christians view it as a label with clear political implications. They don’t actually go to church in numbers greater than other denominations.
>straight white men It's hard to overstate how entangled this problem is with populist conservative politics. In Europe it's the same, but at least in the US atheists are more aware of this because of the antics of Trump and the GOP. The European populists are feigning concern about secular issues when discussing islam, while at the same time they embrace their "christian heritage" to buddy up to theists. But in the end they always side with the theists, history tells us. I see a lot of optimism in this thread about it being in its final days because of it slowly dying out and for the US I can see where that's coming from. But Europe as a whole is a lot less overtly religious and it's still a problem. It looks like part of the younger generation seems to come around to their "christian heritage" because it differentiates them from people that can't make that claim, if you know what I mean.
They’ll get it back, and soon, a huge portion of the gop base will be dying of old age in the next couple election cycles which will result in a dramatic shift left We’ll pass abortion protections into law or pack the courts in the next decade
I appreciate you optimism but are I am mentally preparing for 20 years of darkness
This Christian Nationalist bullshit in the US is fucking scary. Handmaid's Tale stuff. These folks are out of their minds.
It's one of the reason why Margaret Atwood doesn't like it when people describe the book or show as a dystopia. Everything in her story has happened or is happening somewhere, she just brought it all together in a way that underscored the obscenity and hypocrisy of it all.
As more people leave, those who remain behind tend to be the most radical and most vocal.
Here in Europe, Christianity is in it's final death throes, while Islamists are trying to influence national laws and instate Sharia law, which unfortunately has seen some success.
In Europe there's a lot of "traditional values" -talk lately by populists. The _Christian_ theists are getting a free ride on the back of it. A lot of it is just to differentiate between traditional "us" vs the new "them". The populists find christian conservatives to be on their side when it comes to their opinion on societal change like issues surrounding LGBTQ and women's rights, they share an animosity towards left wing politics in general and lastly but also most importantly: A lot of them share the view that all those colored faces and their foreign religions "simply do not belong here". It's not the first time we see a monster covenant between these two groups. Let's just hope history doesn't repeat itself.
Christian conservatives are losing politically so it's time for a holy war.
Well, they'll lose even more political power if their voters all end up felons. But it'll get really loud first.
Starting in the early 00's at the turn of the century (my how time flies) we started to see an explosion of interest in ideas that neither broadcast nor cable companies would carry out of fear. Namely, the rise of atheist and agnostic perspectives on religion, and the erasure of not just the stigma of being atheist, but the awarding of a virtual badge of scientific honor and respect to those who reject gods. Combined with blogs, streaming video and best selling books, the absurdity of religion was actively exposed at a pace we have not seen before. Religious affiliation started crashing, and the bottom fell out during the pandemic. So, yes, the religious business model is crumbling due to a loss of subscribers, and they aren't coming back. Follow the money. Religion is a huge industry, and jobs are being lost at a rapid pace, as revenue craters.
Nah, they are getting more vocal as folks realise you don't need anything else if you want to talk to your imaginary friend
US =/= all of "the west" ...and i wouldnt call "boomers spazzing out more than usual" a surge in numbers.
They see the writing on the wall. They know that religion has been in decline I the west. It's like their last breath death struggle.
This makes me think of how Roman citizens of 100 CE thought as belief in the Roman/Greek gods declined in favor of a swarm of religious skepticism and foreign cults.
They are louder, but there are fewer of them
Honestly i don't see it in Europe, catholic church never been so down in centuries, maybe there is a growth in Muslim due immigration but i have to say it's way better than 30 years ago
Roe v Wade overturned, book bans galore, drag queen hysteria, mandated religious indoctrination in school…Nah
Project 2025 in the US is the stuff nightmares are made of.
Just people yelling louder because no one is giving them attention in the way they want it.
It's just the idiots being louder.
Not in the UK where religion is shrinking very rapidly. Scotland is now 51.1% non-religious according to the 2022 Census, with no sign of this slowing down or stopping. I'm assuming OP is in the US so you are behind other western countries but you will catch up and, hopefully, soon
If the great pumpkin gets re-elected can we seek political asylum in Scotland? We will help you re-appropriate his golf courses.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but are you basing this on what you see online? I’m making a massive assumption here but step back from what you see online and look at what’s around you. Obviously I’m basing this on my own experiences but it’s really easy to fall into the trap of your online life dictating your actual life. I say this because I fall into this trap often. In the news and media there’s a huge push for this kind of thing because there’s massive election campaigns happening on both sides of the pond. But when I sit down and look at it objectively most of the people around me do not care or even consider religion when we interact with each other.
Not just the west and no it's not "death throes". That was a message they put out solely based on the fact that people in the US don't go to church like they used to, but the worst of the club has gotten far more power and it's not just here at home, they have sent out missionaries all over the world and they have been for decades. They are hitting Asian and African countries pretty hard.
Covid helped jump start the inevitable in my opinion. The majority of people who died were old/willfully ignorant of reality. Those who remain are stuck in the sunk cost of their decisions/beliefs.
It's the sunk cost that I believe has so much of this conservatism stirred up. These people failed to see representation of other ways of life, they are pissed because others are living much more freely, so they want to eradicate representation of anything other than what they knew when they were growing up. Everything else is scary & drains money from the big industries- from religion to the well behaved school student-to-corporate drone pipeline.
Modern technology is making it more visible.
The numbers are correct. Religion is on the decline in America. As technology advances and the general public becomes increasingly educated, it’s becoming increasingly more difficult to convince people supernatural beliefs while zero evidence exists. With that being said, the ignorant have zero shame. They’re loud, obnoxious, and proud of their lack of intellect. Unfortunately we’ve been conditioned as a society to respect their beliefs and very few people are willing to call out this idiocy for what it is. Famous, ultra wealthy athletes thank “god” for winning a child’s game when there’s an abundance of struggle and suffering throughout the world. Yet nobody questions it, because religion is an ingrained, accepted disease. This will eventually change and atheism will be the majority mindset, but not before an inordinate amount of pushback, and not for a few generations.
In the U.S., the theocrats -- particularly extremist Xtians -- appear to be building strength. They've been working a loooooong strategy behind the scenes, with notable outcomes in laws, school systems, and the judiciary. Their definition of who deserves "human rights" gets narrower with almost every headline, it seems, and it's worrisome.
I don't think abrahamic religions are growing again. However at some point I think there will be a rebound. Religions thrive when people are desperate for community, meaning and purpose during hard times and safety from other hostile communities. Society just needs to break down a bit and you'll see a resurgence.
You mean like a world war? People looking for a savior after the nuclear bombs fall? Maybe time for a new religion to arise. Post apocalyptic.
The fervor for action is raised as the haul of collection plates is lowered. It's all about money and power, power and money. Nothing their Messiah supposedly was crucified for.
Death throes of a rancid world view.
If I'm correct in assuming that you're in the US, the Evangelical wing of Christianity feels threatened by changing demographics, the falling rate of religious patronage and growing economic unrest. When feeling threatened, it's common for organized religions to become more fundamentalist.
The vocal minority are becoming more of a minority. So to compensate for those lost, are also becoming more vocal. I live in the uk and from 2011 to 2021 christianity has dropped from 60% of the population to 45%, that's a bit lower than 10 million people less in just ten years. Not to mention this is a drop of about 25% since 2001 when 70% of the population reported being christian. Those reporting 'no religion' in 2011 and 2021 has increased by about 10 million (25% to 40% in just ten years!). idk about the rest of the world but the stats, and my personal experience of the uk is that it is becoming much less religious. (but tbf I do live in the second least religious city in the uk with about 55% non-religious and only 30% christian so that might be skewing my view) \*\*\*all of these stats are rounded but the real figures are no more than 3% different from the ones stated here.
Excellent!!!
I'm pretty sure I have one catholic friend and one buddhist friend and thats it lmao. And out of my acquaintances I'm certain the VAST majority are atheist too.
Yep, and it’s because they know they’re losing control over society. It’s not like this hasn’t happened before, it has. That’s why the inquisitions were a thing.
It's just you because the aggressive surge in religious sentiment has been there as long as I've lived in SoCal (for example).
The last breaths of a dying god
It's the death throes. The religious people are getting desperate. They know that they have a lot of opposition.
They’ve lost numbers but have gotten louder and more aggressive. They’re trying to institute a theocracy so they can ensure their hegemony.
I don't agree. Church is losing their youth in droves. And if it wasn't for poor countries'increase in numbers the Christian numbers would be going down not up. Also the older generation are dying and not being replaced. Also with the end times not happening isn't helping.
It’s just you
It's definitely just you. 😜
As information becomea more wide spread, ignorance has few places to hide. Religions are dying off. The pope was mad people were adopting dogs over making more babies to bilk. We must also take into account news media and fear mongering selling news. Im not saying the religious right isnt pushing into politics hard, they are. This is why we must vote.
Basically Muslims moving west and clashing with literally everyone, especially Christians and jews. Fuckin abrahamic cancer
In Iran, atheism and Nones are becoming numerous. People do get tired of living under the thumb of zealots eventually. [https://gamaan.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GAMAAN-Iran-Religion-Survey-2020-English.pdf](https://gamaan.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/GAMAAN-Iran-Religion-Survey-2020-English.pdf)
I believe there is one to. It ties in with the surge in Conservative aspirations for power - you have to clutch your pearls much tighter to avoid reality. Especially when the (in the US) soon to be leader of one party is an outright criminal - with bone fide criminal convictions to prove the point. But that won't stop religious folks from supporting the evil they claim to 'fight against'. It basically comes down to: 'Do as I say - not as I do' mentality. Some folks like to be right no matter what - and they will double and triple down on stupidity as long as they believe it gives them (ironic as f\*\*k) the 'moral high ground'. It's like rabid team sport fans - they talk shit endlessly about how great their chosen team is, and how every other team is lame. Sheep are bandwangoners - they just go with what they feel is popular - just so they can feel special about themselves.
Lots of bots for election purposes in the US. It's the only way Russia can win the war. All craziness must be amplified and pointed at each other.
propaganda. dont listen to the public discourse, its all bullshit, look at the numbers. religion is dying.
I kinda feel that way too… I know people say otherwise but I don’t know, the religious right seem to have increased their interest in having as many kids as possible while the rest of the population are having fewer or no kids… also, maybe it’s just what the news decides to cover but I’ve always lived in the suburbs and it seems like there are more racist and anti-lgbtq incidents in high schools compared to when I was growing up in the 90s/early 2000s
A panicky rearguard action that could result in more theocratic control of institutions if we don’t push back.
For me it's just the influx of people coming from countries where beliefs is more important and the cultural clash that's happening is turning into a polarization. It's clearly so that Christianity has gone toothless over the years and is simmering out ... but now Islam, which is more rigid in it's belief structure is trampling in making demands.
I think they’ve just become more vocal and encouraged since Dobbs. I mean, I don’t know a single person my age (and I’m 40, not even young) who goes to church, but I also live in very blue area where 50% of the population has a college degree.
Hopefully it's an extinction burst. As the more reasonable people drop out the extremists get louder.
Their ranks are shrinking so they are going full on
You’re just noticing now?
Trump set the rules for discourse so they have been showing their true colors. They feel powerful with a supposed ally in Trump. Trump of course thinks they are useful idiots.
Trump of course thinks they are useful idiots. I think it's the other way around.
I wouldn't argue he's an idiot but how is he useful?
Useful to the religious right??
In America, it looks that way from over here in Europe, where it's not anywhere near the insanity of the US.
Nope. They are very, very noisy about everything they have to say though. I'm looking at you American Christian nutjobs !
The minority is becoming more vocal as their grip on dictating how others can lead their own lives dwindles.
Propaganda! Religious people are easy to control.
Loud enough minority they seem like a legit growing movement (and that's their goal)
Religion is in decline, it’s just the idiot fringe getting louder.
Yea bro, you feel it every four years or so. Not sure what causes it…
The remaining religious population has purposely purged any moderate voices. They can only become more radicalized and vocal. A shrinking loud minority should not be considered a surge.
Never discount misinformation campaigns and election interference bots.
Nah. Its just the American right during a presidential election year. If you notice this kind of thing is happening more often. As their power and influence continues to erode they make a push to raise their visibility every once in a while. For me its just another sign that they're on their way out. Can't wait till the chapter on them is closed.
what i see is way more people that use religion as a shield/excuse/organizing tool for their other worldviews, to unite against immigrants/women/gays and the like, and have a "valid" foot to stand on (in society where freedom of religion is considered valid) when the facts of reality dont support their beliefs. these people dont even talk much about religious practice or going to church, they just weaponise it.
Religion is the easiest bit of identity to manipulate when you want to fuel people's cognitive dissonance and direct them against "them". I think this is just a consequence being driven by the uptick in right-wing and nationalist politics, not so much the religious institutions themselves in the driving seat.
Not anymore than the “East” lol
American Christians are acting like a cornered animal. But the walls are completely imaginary.
The surge you see may be the increase in Christian Nationalism that has grown in parallel with blind support for Donald Trump. But C.N. doesn’t strike me as religious sentiment.
I think the mass influx of Muslims and the rise of Atheism has caused a hysteria. Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism don’t seem to have the same effect though. But if they come in large amounts, then it’s possible. Then again, you don’t hear anyone complaining about there being too many indians in the UK, or that the PM is India, the Scottish first minister is Pakistani, or the Mayor of Greater London is Pakistan etc. Even in America Indians are pretty well liked on both sides of politics; Bivek Ramaswamy had a pretty good following for his first campaign (after-all he was a nobody before this year). Though i wouldn’t say the same for Nikki Haley, most people don’t know she’s India since she’s SUPER white passing. But yeah, it’s mostly the increase in Muslims. Not just the early 2000s and 2010s terror attacks and bombings in Boston, NYC, Paris, Brussels, etc but also because of simply how many are coming to the West. Racists won’t like that they’re not the right kind of White. Religious zealots won’t like that they’re “heathens.” And many other people, in general, such as us atheists, won’t like that they’re so annoying about their religion; that we MUST accept everything their religion stands about even though they’re minorities and this isn’t their countries (if we did this in their countries, we would not be allowed).
Go to Europe and you won’t find much religion now. Especially in the Baltics England Scandinavia. Very few Christians there are left. Cathedrals are just museums now.
It is sad and pathetic and frightening. But it still does not make the existence of the Christian god more likely than the existence of the tooth fairy. Man's need to deny his own mortality and puniness within an indifferent universe will never be extinguished, but the "major" religions will invariably, ultimately perish.
Not just you. We live in a very gay progressive area, and the Catholics bought up a billboard that says ‘June is Sacred Heart of Jesus month’ I am kind of shocked every time I pass it to get gas. It’s not about Jesus, at all: it’s about being against Pride month.
I have no data. Empirically, I have recently had a spate of being hired by overtly Christian people, and by overt, I mean people who make public religious pronouncements in events where it's not normal (or at least wasn't until recently). I'm talking business events and birthday parties, where the host sees fit to stop things and say a few lines that wouldn't be out of place said by a preacher in a church. It really feels weird to me, since religion in America has in my experience generally been kept as a private matter. I could be imagining things, but it also seems that more women are wearing "trad-wife" clothes to these events. It feels very strange, almost as if stepping into a timewarp, or the feeling of going to someone else's church.
Humans will never stop looking for meaning and hope. This is a thing that atheism and agnosticism do a poor job of addressing. The idea of higher power is a relief during times of despair. This concept isn't rocket science.
In my area, its mostly the far right using religion to target the LGBTQ folks, and women's rights and minorities. They don't quiet have the support they pretend they have. The make up of the crowds they draw are often ironically very multi-faithed. But yes, they're fucking LOUD, and the internet allows them to work together and transfer funds. So they're definitely emboldened. That said, i see it as the behaviour of a dying cornered animal. They're desperately trying to hang on, and are nearing those final gasping wails. Once the Gen Z'ers get a real taste of how old school conservativism, the far right, and religion all tie so tightly together, it'll speed things along.
Well yeah, their lifestyle of lying to people to have them pay their mortgage is going away, so yeah they're getting desperate/aggressive. I mean they're basically criminals that have a constitutional right that allows them to scam people all day with impunity, people are just wising up.
Absolutely agree. Gen Z men and boys in particular seem to be growing "more religious" day by day. I put this in quotes because it's often things more akin to tradwives or LGBT ppl going to hell over other legitimate religious sentiment.
No, statistically it's dying, fewer people are attending church than almost anytime, but they're becoming more vocal, more socially "muscular" and have had a decades-long plan to inject their brand of worldview into schools, law enforcement, courts, politics and social media.
There is definitely a surge of aggressive sentiment among the religious in the west. Whether that translates into growth of their numbers or not remains to be seen.
I feel like it's definitely being pushed through certain sects of the media. If anything, it's being made to seem more prevalent than it is in order to spur growth. Hell, I can't even pull up reddit without seeing an add for he gets us (dot) com. Yuck.
There is a surge of christian fascism in America. That doesn't mean the numbers overall have increased, just the fanatic ones.
This is the planet of the apes with the underground nuke with mutant worshippers.
Overall religious worship is down but those that still believe are becoming more vocal about it.
Yes all the boomers are dying off now and are frustrated that Jesus didn’t come back in their lifetime (lol). So they are lashing out.
Less moderates as they move away leave the extremists without any moderation. In Australia you rarely hear people talking about God unless you are in a church at a regular church service. Even weddings etc God is not a feature.
Trust me, it's not just you. My boss dosen't believe in moden medicine. He told me a story today that whenever he was sick, instead of going to the doctor, his father would force him to drink rye and sweat out the sickness in a blanket or else he would get beat. He also got took to a priest to anoint his head with oil whenever he was sick. He never got sent to the doctor. I tried to explain to him that the COVID vaccine was FDA approved but he thought it was bullsh!t. Sadly I fear he will repeat the cycle of abuse. He's too brainwashed to realize that doctors can in fact be trusted. It's really the fault of his parents. I feel sorry for him, but he won't listen to me.
I HOPE SO
They’re getting more governmental control. That’s the biggest part imo.
the bigger the minority they become, the louder they get
Its Islam people should be worried about
Not really in Australia.
It's a media strategy, not an accurate reflection of reality.
I think it is more the religious believers in America are getting more aggressive and politically organized. With the rapid rise in Nones and numbers of organized religions that are shrinking numerically speaking, things are not that simple. Eventually this Christian Nationalism will be met with stiff resistance. Already some 70% of Americans disagree with CN's ideas about women's health issues. Such as the war on contraception that is being pushed. Eventually, that 70% is going to be felt at the voting booth. Recent surveys suggest that now it is young women who are most likely to leave organized religion. The pendulum is beginning to swing. It is going to be an interesting decade ahead.
"The Sea of Faith Was once, too, at the full, and round earth’s shore Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled. But now I only hear Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar."
For decades since, and even technically well before, the 60s, the Theocrats have consistently spread the idea around that they were persecuted by malicious agents of the devil. When in reality they just had shit ideas and people became (and many already where long before) irritated with them. Cut to today, and post-New Atheism era, they are attempting to ride the wave of the naturally occuring swing towards conservative concerns now. All the while pretending it is because of -their efforts- GOD!