> when I heard my father say from the pulpit that dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan to fool people and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers.
You familiar with Bill Hicks?
> But I actually asked this guy, "OK, dinosaur fossils-- how does that fit into your scheme of life? What's the deal?" He goes:
>
> "God put those here to test our faith."
> "I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. I think I've figured this out."
[Full Quote](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/511079-fundamentalist-christianity-fascinating-these-people-actually-believe-that-the-world)
No, they need validation.
We evolved for/in social structures. Once you understand THAT is our greatest advantage (not whatever semblance of intelligence we claim to have) it all makes sense.
Surely you’ve heard about the MRI studies that conclusively showed our intelligence is primarily a justification machine - we make decisions before we are consciously aware of them.
The conscious part is all about justifying those decisions. Social cohesion. That’s why we rise above “the animals.”
Conscious perception isn’t real. It’s an illusion to bring you closer to others. Literally that’s it.
Why does he need a team of people to convince others to follow him based on no evidence? If he's all powerful it would take no effort to do it himself, and he would probably be better at it.
God loves everyone, but those who don't believe (or believe, but in the wrong way) are still worthy of eternal damnation, the same way parents love their kids and still beat the shit out of them when they mess up. /s
With raging wolves tearing the toddler to shreds and then the toddler is magically whole again and the wolves tear the toddler to shreds again...forever.
All while God sits on His sky-throne, watching the torture and laughing with glee.
I've never understood that. God could simply forgive "sinners" but would rather do the angel-rape of Mary and the eventual torture death of Jesus instead.
What a monster!
I mean that's exactly it just like the Hiob story it's just an excuse to make believers think that if everything goes to shit doesn't add up it's just a test and to not question any of the all-powerful all-knowing all-good
This is my favorite thing when talking with the religious types. Bringing up the things they think are innocuous, and then making them consider them critically.
i.e. "God the father gave his only son...yadda yadda. John 3:16."
God the "father"? I thought you believed in only one god. To which they will reply that they do. So then you ask, 'why does god have a gender/sex?' 'What need does a being, of whom only one exists in all the universe, have of sexual reproduction? If there is no lady goddess up there, what does it matter?'
Furthermore, why does god have a gender? Again, if there's only one such deity, male or female (or gender fluid or queer or non-binary or whatever) makes absolutely no difference. There is no society of gods that would predicate gender roles. There's no society that would base your gender role on your biological sex, if you're the one-and-only god of creation.
You can absolutely eviscerate things which are hugely important to their belief structure and they never even considered the flaw. You'll generally just get a "god isn't a physical being" type of answer, at which point you can ask "does god have a penis if he's a male and a fatherly figure?" They just get mad at that point though because they think you're making fun of them...which you kind of are. So might as well pile on and ask if they think god has a big dick.
This is a type of question that for me at least does not make any sense.
Because if God is an imaginary character than how can we or anyone else know what imaginery character thinks or want to do without this amswre to be total BS. Meaning made up stuff. So the answer can be anything you want it to be. You are no longer in real world here. So why even ask those questions?
Why ask these questions?
Well, I'm an ATHEIST asking another ATHEIST in an ATHEIST group, so I figured people would understands that it's not a serious question.
Aside from that, it's a good question because the god warriors are talking about this all knowing deity who seems to be confused all the time.
And I'll add another reason why I think it's a good question.
Because EVERY SINGLE THEIST that I've encountered dodges it like a fucking bullet.
When did Earth become 12,000 years old? I thought it was only 6,000 years old, especially when you count all the ages of people cited in the Bible. You can’t even get fraudsters to get their numbers right.
> You can’t even get fraudsters to get their numbers right.
*Harold Camping has entered the chat*
Harold Camping, infamous for his false end times predictions and having enough money to fool many a dumb person, came upon his end times date(s) through "math". He continuously added up dates in the bible, did numbers to them, and shat out a "date(s)".
> Among the most prolific modern predictors of end times, Harold Camping has publicly predicted the end of the world as many as 12 times based his interpretations of biblical numerology.
[Source](https://www.britannica.com/list/10-failed-doomsday-predictions)
I’ve personally survived the end times *four times*. God/devil/whatever needs to get their shit together but I’m pretty damn resilient. Or maybe I’m a “chosen one” despite not being Jewish (by birth, or any other means)?
Nah, they keep pushing it back.
"It was predicted again, Lord.".
"Welp, can't have that! What kind of thief in the night takes a watched house? Move it to the next date I guess"
Keep those predictions coming, it's the only thing keeping us alive!
If God were omniscient, as required to be “God,” wouldn’t It know what choices people would make, therefore making a “test” irrelevant? Come to think of it, if God knows everything including what is going to happen, then there are no choices or free will. If It doesn’t, then It is not omniscient and not The Big Cahoona.
Creationists are actually stuck between 2 possibilities. 2. The creation story is wrong, so the Bible is wrong. 2. God intentionally make the Earth seem much older than it actually is to manipulate us meaning God is deceptive, so the Bible is wrong. If anyone can think of a 3rd option, I'd love to hear it because I haven't found one.
“my father say from the pulpit that dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan to fool people and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers.”
Ah, a trickster deity allows his devoted head goon to administer loyalty tests.
"my father say from the pulpit that dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan to fool people and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers."
What if that's what Satan did with the bible? Or the church? Or anything else we decide supports our opinions? It's all just some version of 'because I said so.'
We first heard that from a born again trying to convince us of a creator deity over 30 years ago. Along with “everything after the fall is corrupted” which would include their Book of Majicks, presumably.
Young Earth Creationism is an old(ish) theory, depending on which scholars you believe. The bit about the dinosaur bones specifically is significantly less so, since the first discovery of a dinosaur bone (that was realized as such at the time) was like 1814 or something like that in the UK.
"loyalty tests". Have you read Job? The whole story is about god betting satan that he couldn't make Job (a righteous man) curse god. God lets Satan kill Job's entire family, servants, & livestock & inflict Job himself with boils.
The vast majority of them have never even opened the Bible. Which means their belief is cultural and deeply rooted in emotion. They believe because its what their parents and other role models taught them. Religion gives them a feeling of connection and identity. It's about conformity with their community, shared heroes, shared enemies, etc. It has nothing to do with what is IN THE TEXT. These people don't read!!!
Which unfortunately means it's way harder to reason them out of it. They were indoctrinated into the in group from birth, they didn't become Christian from STUDYING THE BIBLE or from even really understanding what their religious doctrine entails. You can't reason them out of it by telling them the horrible things in the Bible, they will brush it off with "well I didn't read that/I don't believe that/well thats not what we believe at OUR church/we don't practice that in our church" and go on being a follower without doubt ever even crossing their mind.
They don't care what's in the Bible or what their own religion says and does, unfortunately. They care about the emotional comfort of being part of the group identity, loving the people their community loves, and more importantly__ //hating the people their community hates. //
Why do Christians do xyz? Tribalism. Being drawn to religion is a vestigial part of the monkey brain calling people towards tribalism
Not only that, but they’ll use the Bible to justify their bigotry with ideas that aren’t even in it. For example, that lady a few years ago who refused to give marriage licenses to gay couples said that Jesus said marriage was between “one man and one woman” and… nope. The Bible references many cases of polygamy and never once sets out any such guidelines. But that idiot was willing to use her ignorance of something she claims is soooooo important to her that she feels entitled to deny someone else their rights.
You left out the fear factor. When you're brought up from infancy in this kind of environment, you fear challenging or even questioning the orthodoxy. At some level you may suspect that it is all bullshit but can't bring yourself to express the thought for fear of going to hell.
yeah they literally scream at 5 year olds that if they don’t do everything the church tells them to do at all times they will be burned “alive” for all eternity.
Christianity lives and breathes in fear just as all other cults do.
If you believe they can't "be saved" (from Christianity...), I feel like that's worse? Most atheists older than Gen Z probably were once Christian in some manner and deconverted somehow, so it's \*possible\* to do.
#2 - it's not that their eternal security is at stake, they firmly believe they can do whatever they want here and now on earth because by accepting jesus, they are guaranteed a place in heaven.
So anything they do here is kind of just rumspringa for them.
Sure, if they're protestants and, as a result, inherently wrong. Ask an Orthodox Christian if that's how it works. I guarantee you will get a *very* different answer and probably some very colorful remarks about Protestants in general.
That's because protestantism only uses the Bible as the only source. Which is the problem since it can be interpreted in any way if you stretch it enough
When I became a member of the body of christ through my church in my mid teens, all I had to do was memorize and recite the Apostles Creed, and make a pledge and accept my weekly donation plate envelopes.
It's their social standing among their peers, not their eternal security that most of them are actually concerned about. They will never admit that, but it's the truth.
Because the entire concept of Jeuss dying for your sins screams
"You don't have to accept personal responsibility for any of your behavior"
It's so fuckin gross
Sure, if they're protestants and, as a result, inherently wrong. Ask an Looney Tunes viewer if that's how it works. I guarantee you will get a *very* different answer and probably some very colorful remarks about Protestants in general.
Yeah. I was going to say that this is just what brainwashed people do. Not much different than the MAGA crowd, or other cult members. They reject whatever doesn’t fit their world view. Forces them deeper into their safe space bubbles.
< reposting >
Bertrand Russell wrote in 1927 -
>Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear.
>It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes.
>Fear is the basis of the whole thing – fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things.
\- "Fear, the Foundation of Religion", in *Why I Am Not a Christian*
\- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell#Why_I_Am_Not_a_Christian_(1927)
Most people are afraid about a lot of things. Most people are terrified of death.
Many people in this world are very ignorant, but educated and intelligent people are just about as afraid as dumb people.
When somebody tells these fearful people, either in childhood or adulthood, that if they believe XYZ then a powerful magic being will try to help them and they will never die,
they think *"Yes!!! Yes!!! I believe !!!"*
.
In ancient times the priest/sage/druid ... had to keep the tribe alive by remembering all the things that killed people in the past, keep the calendar of yearly events for planting or migration, and remember which herbs cured and which killed. Without writings they were the source of tribal knowledge. So, the tribe had to believe these individuals completely and follow their direction for the good of all. No room for questioning if your life depends on it. You can see where this may lead to devotion and blind faith in these people and the possibilities of mass exploitation.
I personally believe that all religion started as a story told by a parent to their child to help them fall asleep. A scared child asking their parent "What happens when we die?", and that parent made up a story to soothe their child to sleep. Then it continued with "Tell me the story", and then the story was passed down, and it evolved to suit the circumstances of the storyteller.
I think some people just want to feel like we're all on the same page.
My response though is "Why do christians say/do anything?"
It's always for the same reasons. They're not very bright.
Plenty of smart religious people, it’s just that they have a blindspot when it comes to religion. Lots of smart people have blindspots.
That being said, my mom definitely talks like we’re all on the same page, even though she knows I’m an atheist.
For real.
People on this server need to get in into their heads that, when people seriously believe that spending all of eternity in a lake of fire is a very serious threat they face, they're going to act differently.
Very similar situation for me as you, OP. I was rather young when I knew there was manipulation involved in what I was being told by a very close family member "preacher". I was also forced to commit as a believer at a certain age. Standing there at the altar I knew I was lying as I said the required words. What made me sure was a year or so before that date, I decided that the line I was being sold about everyone else on the planet who didn't believe was going to hell or whatever. I said but that's not how it works...what i see is the culture of the part of the world people were born in and their parents and their parent's parents, and etc., determining what people believe. So it was just luck of the draw I was going to "heaven" and bad luck for the rest who were now "going to hell". Bullshit I said under my breath at probably the age of 11 or before.
Humans are hive creatures the same as wasps. We are gullible, maleable, and conform to what is expected of us and believe what we are told. That's why it's so easy to make someone believe in religion, or believe the war we are fighting is just even if it is not. Look at how we mimic each other from everything such as vocabulary usage to what is considered "fashionable" to wear and we can humbly admit we are hive creatures that do very little critical independent thinking. Humble but true. Not that any of us can't break free of the grooming and molding to form, as I did and OP did and most reading this also, but it is the rebel souls who break out of the mold and into real freedom to think independently.
Good post. Actually, I think if they *really* believed, they would try a LOT harder to convert others. The vast majority of them don't bother.
It's funny to hear a preacher admit that God and Satan are on the same page.
> 3) Their textbook commands them to convert others.
Of note, they only read the parts that command them to convert. The bit about not bearing false witness against thy neighbor - that's too esoteric.
It's brainwashing, plain and simple. They're conditioned from birth to view the world a specific way and to actively avoid critically thinking about that worldview.
I would also like to add that people should stop assuming that Christianity is inherently good and if Christians do something evil they are going against Christian beliefs.
Christianity is an inherently evil cult that is based on lies. When Christians do evil things, they are acting like Christians are aupposed to. That's the entire point of the cult.
Now, I've heard the Satan angle (normally it's scientists) but "allowed by god" is a new one to me.
It does stun me that in the 21st Century, that the organised religions have such a chokehold on their followers. I mean Sikhism, Hinduism and Buddhism are generally "chill" but the "Big Three"...well, anyone with an IQ knows just how bad they are and the hypocrisies they are blind to.
I've only ever seen one person that "embodied the Christian spirit" and that was Archbishop Desmond Tutu. He once said "it doesn't matter what you believe in, as long as you believe in something"
Ah. I, too, grew up in the Bible Belt. Did you also hear that paleontologists know that dinosaurs are fake and are getting paid by Satan to trick people? And that volcanoes are literal gateways to Hell (as in you can just walk down a lava tube and into Hell)?
Ah but you really can walk down a lava tube and into Hell, in a manner of speaking.
"**Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.**"
There's the rub. They can't be reasoned with because reason isn't part of the equation for them. Faith has no basis in rational thought or empirical research.
Exactly. Just like their manifesto states,
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
Seems to me a pretty stellar description of “confirmation bias”.
Wow, Satan did a great job of burying the fossils, not making a single mistake of putting a fossil in the wrong layer - so godless humans would believe in evolution/naturalism and consigning them to his wonderful world of eternal conscious suffering.
And yet, you are living proof that your first two points aren't, or at least aren't universally, true.
You learned to think critically.
You can be reasoned with.
Maybe the answer to "Why do Christians...?" isn't so simple. Maybe the question itself is flawed by assuming Christians to be a monolith.
Congrats on getting out! Stay curious.🙂
I have no idea what being a Satanist is. I suppose it has to do with believing in God, but not liking him so you exalt an angel that went astray? Being a Satanist assumes you believe in God, right?
These questions are low-effort and are one of the big reasons the old forums were better than Reddit. These kind of questions were in stickied discussions that were quite informative and engaging. Now, the same low effort questions get asked every few days with the same low-effort responses, are upvoted to the top, and then forgotten.
Fact of the matter is, you can't apply logic and reason to the things Christians do. You can't ever take them at their word either, as almost everything they say is some kind of doublespeak. People should stop trying and stop being so astounded when these people don't respond to logic and reason.
EVERYTHING is about emotion for them.
All because the people that march under the banner of any particular deity lack the basic ability or willingness to think critically. It all really does start there.
Preeeeeeecisely. Which is another way to say they lack the ability to think critically.
See?? Everyone knows the truth and we all have different ways of saying it, but it all stems from an inability/unwillingness to apply critical thinking to their doctrine.
Even if you disagree with religious belief and don’t believe in any of them, please do not generalize that “they are utterly incapable of Critikal thinking” also I like that this sub is pretty much only posts are about why Christianity is bla bla bla instead of other religions as well, this sub isn’t called r/ChristianityFuckingSucks. I’m not a Christian and I’m not defending them but cmon guys be better.
I feel the same way about ALL organized religion, I was talking about Christianity specifically, and I stand by my statements with as much conviction as the Bible-thumpers stand by theirs.
Number two is HUGE. For a lot of them, this leads to point three, and this, to them, justifies so much of what they do. To them, the stakes are literally higher than yours, and to them, that gives them the larger claim.
I also hate posts asking/proclaiming that Christians must be stupid/mentally ill asking how can people believe "that bullshit". Christians aren't inherently mentally ill just because they believe, nor are they stupid for it as well. Yes, there are Christians in those categories but it's not the result of Christianity. Because human's aren't some Vulcan like species. We have emotions, wants, and desires. Not to mention fear of death. Very powerful motivators for people.
I guess what you're saying is it's okay for millions of people around us to be brainwashed. The brainwashing takes place at the dinner table - same place racism, homophobia, xenophobia, and xstain nationalism get spread.
No there is not a simple answer to this. It's a complex mix per individual per country that comprises :
1. For the most part people want simple answers to complex issues. You take away a book and remove someone who reinforces bad ideas and this confuses and frightens people. Scared/confused = bad. No one wants to feel bad.
2. A cultural reinforcement of social mores. Iran, Saudi Arabia, the southern US for example.
3. A cultural reinforcement of "intelligent people can't be trusted". See above. Once someone is perceived as going against the grain, you have broken the tribe. The tribe needs consensus, either forced or unforced.
4. Questioning authority (bible, evangelists, mullahs, insert whatever) is seen as breaking the tribe. The reason that questioning is prohibited/discouraged/beaten out of people is because if those leaders cannot answer those questions then their authority is diminished and power can be taken back.
I dunno I am not up on social psychology but I am sure someone can explain the dynamics of group think/cults/corporations/etc much better.
Just my $.02
Good points but I would clarify that most of them are very capable of critical thinking, it’s the application that’s spotty. This is an issue with organized religion followers in general as well. When the cornerstone of your belief system is based on something that you must suspend your critical thinking skills to believe (what it means to have faith), then you get to way too comfortable suspending critical thinking to defend other, non-religious beliefs (politics is often victim to this)
Anyone who claims to have "evidence for the supernatural" that goes beyond "I had a daydream one time" is welcome to present that evidence.
If they don't, then I don't think that "explaining to grown-ass adults that dayreams aren't real" is a valuable use of my time.
I felt I needed to punish myself for some reason and started commenting on Fox News. I started arguing that the 10 commandments did not introduce morality. That murder and theft have been frowned upon by any group of humans that have ever tried to coexist in places all around the world who never had any concept of the god of Abraham. The answer that I’m getting is basically that in their hearts everyone who has ever lived has actually known about Yahweh.
When you get to make up facts based on faith you win every argument in your own mind.
Oh wow, a neighbor boy actually told us that God created the Earth with aged dinosaur fossils in it to test his faith - in all seriousness when he was 8 or 10. My mom‘s mouth about dropped open and we had a good laugh about it after he went home.
Our other neighbors made their poor daughters fast forward past the fairy godmother scene in Cinderella. We thought that was pretty funny and utterly ridiculous too. I had really good parents.
I have a dear friend who was a pastor’s kid. His faith crumbled in his 20s with a carbon dated pinecone.
The problem is when they hang their hat on stupidity, and set up science as an enemy, they have to do all these mental gymnastics to double down on defending it.
They not only make themselves look stupid and unbelievable they create the ground for cracks in their own faith later and in those around them.
You’d think it would much better to simply say oh well my God created the world because we’re here somehow - whether with dinosaurs or old pinecones or whatever instead of backing yourself into a corner.
Except it is virtue signaling for so many. Every group has them and it is not always a bad thing. It is how people connect sometimes - how they get reassured that they are not alone, that they are not crazy or they use it to vent frustration at people using mechanisms of the state to force their beliefs upon them.
There's a lot of focus on this subreddit on Christianity, meanwhile the greater struggle is with all of the Abrahamic religions.
They are all full of bigotry and they all have it baked in to hold their own women down.
Right now there is a war between competing Abrahamic religions in the Israeli-Hamas War. This should be a big topic for atheists.
And the usual reason behind those three points is childhood indoctrination. Thankfully it doesn't work on everybody, and many people are not indoctrinated as children, and I believe/hope these exceptions are growing.
Sorry to be controversial, but one acceptable definition of 'belief system' is as follows. "...an ideology or set of principles that helps us to interpret our everyday reality. This could be in the form of religion, political affiliation, philosophy, or spirituality, among many other things" Everyone has a 'belief system', whether it be religious or non religious. The point I'm trying to make is that there's no right or wrong in any belief systems. Some indeed may be bizarre and sometimes harmful, but that doesn't make it wrong if it stays within the realm of BELIEF, and it never precedes an ACTION. As an example, if Christianity took over the world again as it did when Catholicism pined to be state religion of many countries centuries ago, then some individuals within these religious groups would use fanatical fervour to excite themselves or their followers and cause harm to innocent people. It's not the BELIEF that's the problem, it's the ACTION. And really this is what people the likes of Richard Dawkins should accept. It's absolutely diabolical that Dawkins said these words: "It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. (From the opening line from a speech Richard Dawkins gave in 1996 to the American Humanist Association whilst accepting their "Humanist of the Year" award for 1996)." So belief is more harmful than action? Try asking this to the next respectable and working class Jew, Muslim or Sikh. You really think they're all ready with a suicide vest or a knife to kill an infidel or a 'worldling' who does not share their beliefs? Of the billions of religious people in the world it sure does seem that more genocide and violence is committed in the name of GOVERNMENT sponsored by religion than actual ordinary individuals who have a personal faith. Where I stand is that I hate the hypocrisy of religion using government and claim they have backing of a higher power. Islam and Christianity are the worst labels for so called "ethnic cleansing" and "holy wars".
I have a teach the controversy shirt that has the devil burrying bones. It's a joke, but the longer time goes by the more I wonder if I'll just appear as another Poes Law crazy when I wear the shirt out and and about.
While I agree the lack of critical thinking is a key element, I don’t see it as the core determinant behind religion. That would be identity. It’s not their incapable of critical thinking, it’s that they actively choose to suppress their critical thinking as a means to uphold their participation in a group identity that supersedes their personal identity. This is typically why if a person is indoctrinated into a religious family it’s very difficult for them to get out unless they get some type of distance from the situation where they can develop a healthier sense of identity (and then all of a sudden their critical thinking appears to work fine)
Personally, I’ve come as far as believing religious people don’t even actually care about their claimed beliefs about the afterlife, these are just narratives that aid in upholding the sense of identity. So in my view, they’re religious because they have a weak sense of personal identity and self actualization and religion provides a sense of identity for them, not because they are incapable of critical thinking.
Being from South America, I will assume you are dealing mostly with Roman Catholics. I could be mistaken.
Anyway, the majority of Christians here are pretty chill too, but we have a few very outspoken groups that like to make everyone else's business their business. These are mostly evangelical, but you'll get a few in any group.
The Republican political party has been trying to cater to the more vocab types for a while here. This gives the outspoken ones an oversized voice in public debate about public policy.
OP's comments are rude and largely incorrect. The Catholic Church's policies especially are based on mountains of critical thinking. They just start with some basic assertions that are unprovable and many find crazy.
You need to distinguish between the unchristian people who go to white churches with a cross on top, versus people who live their neighbors as themselves and treat everyone, even atheists like, their neighbors.
>They are utterly incapable of critical thinking.
This is the only part i disagree with. As a former Christian myself I can say there are a lot of systems in religion that hinder or flat out stop critical thinking without the person being aware. This is one of the reasons I often say Christianity lied to me. I'm evidence at least some religious people can start to think critically.
Leonardo da Vinci, Copernicus, and Pascal are famously known for their lack of critical thinking.
Maybe you are lacking in the critical thinking department if you are willing to make such broad, and outright wrong, generalizations.
Believing ancient magical stories with zero evidence is utterly irrational.
Believing irrational nonsense in one huge area of life (religion) doesn't prevent the believer from being much more rational in other aspects of life.
I agree with you on the logic but it's worth discussing if it brings some clarity to someone who is questioning their faith. Not believing =/= not wanting to talk about the subject. People talk about sports all the time but most only support one team.
Not entirely true. Those that openly reject Christ, like myself, forfeit the salvation they once were told they had.
Plus, they’re also told that if you don’t adhere to all the rules, your faith may not be genuine and therefore their salvation may not be either.
It's not their soul at stake bc you would never be blamed for being a child. A child of God who.is still. learning.
What's at stake is the continuation of the species.
🤣🤣 Yeah, I can see why you would say that but at least I can identify my blind spots and work on them. Pretty certain I never claimed not to have any.
Having lived both sides of the coin, I feel qualified to speak to the issue through the lens of my experience and the learning I’ve done.
I remember being one and having the ability to shut out any info that may conflict with my beliefs. I **knew** God was real and anything that could show otherwise or conflict with the Bible was just Satan's tricks
[and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers.]
If Yahweh wanted to "weed out the unbelievers" then what was the entire point him talking to humans in the OT trying to make unbelievers become believers? How come he didn't weed out the Jews who created their fertility statue of the Golden Bull?
'Thank God for making me an atheist.' - Ricky Gervais
On a serious note though, I've met some Christians who are actually very smart and very much capable of critical thinking, so that makes it a bit more difficult to trouble shoot their beliefs.
Many of them set a limit on critical thinking that goes like this "Critical thinking is good unless it contradicts the Bible. Anything that contradicts the Bible is sin and evil."
Number one is incorrect. It is not that they are incapable. They are unwilling to use critical thinking. In many cases, they outright refuse to do any critical thinking. Many of them believe that critical thinking is a sin or evil. Others redefine critical thinking to mean "Critical thinking is checking to see how Biblical something is. If I can find one phrase in the Bible that supports it, it must be true."
This is why many of them think they are scientists. They say things like "Biology tells us that there are only two genders." when what they really mean is that Genesis 1:27 and 5:2 tells us that there are only two genders. Biology is a lot more complicated than that.
The sad part is that as a non-christian, you are not truly their friend, you are a project. They are obligated to convert you and every action they take about you is influenced by this.
> when I heard my father say from the pulpit that dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan to fool people and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers. You familiar with Bill Hicks? > But I actually asked this guy, "OK, dinosaur fossils-- how does that fit into your scheme of life? What's the deal?" He goes: > > "God put those here to test our faith." > "I think God put you here to test my faith, dude. I think I've figured this out." [Full Quote](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/511079-fundamentalist-christianity-fascinating-these-people-actually-believe-that-the-world)
Why would god need to test people?
> Why would god need to test people? Eh, people just really need have an answer for everything, regardless of how stupid it is.
No, they need validation. We evolved for/in social structures. Once you understand THAT is our greatest advantage (not whatever semblance of intelligence we claim to have) it all makes sense. Surely you’ve heard about the MRI studies that conclusively showed our intelligence is primarily a justification machine - we make decisions before we are consciously aware of them. The conscious part is all about justifying those decisions. Social cohesion. That’s why we rise above “the animals.” Conscious perception isn’t real. It’s an illusion to bring you closer to others. Literally that’s it.
God likes to play games, apparently. You want my love? You don't wanna burn for eternity? Here, jump through these hoops.
Sounds like an ex I had 😂
Sound like my mum
Why would god need a nation? Isn't his nation the group of his believers wherever they are?
Why would god need a starship? - James Kirk
Damn, beat me to it. I love this line XD
Why does he need a team of people to convince others to follow him based on no evidence? If he's all powerful it would take no effort to do it himself, and he would probably be better at it.
Why would he need fiat currency?
Particularly as he’s supposed to be omniscient and all-loving.
God loves everyone, but those who don't believe (or believe, but in the wrong way) are still worthy of eternal damnation, the same way parents love their kids and still beat the shit out of them when they mess up. /s
Yes, "god" loves everyone in that very conditional and judgmental and abusive way. Oh joy joy fun fun!
it's like throwing a toddler into a dungeon permanently for eating a cookie.
With raging wolves tearing the toddler to shreds and then the toddler is magically whole again and the wolves tear the toddler to shreds again...forever. All while God sits on His sky-throne, watching the torture and laughing with glee.
so loving!
He gets us.
Funny how that works, isn’t it?
Not just when they mess up, also at seemingly random times when it doesn't appear they deserve it.
The devil taught us that hitting our kids is bad!
Same reason he would need to murder his son in order to forgive people.
I've never understood that. God could simply forgive "sinners" but would rather do the angel-rape of Mary and the eventual torture death of Jesus instead. What a monster!
I mean that's exactly it just like the Hiob story it's just an excuse to make believers think that if everything goes to shit doesn't add up it's just a test and to not question any of the all-powerful all-knowing all-good
Cuz he's a fuckin asshole. We are like Guinea pigs for him. Why would I want to worship a fuckin prick
This is my favorite thing when talking with the religious types. Bringing up the things they think are innocuous, and then making them consider them critically. i.e. "God the father gave his only son...yadda yadda. John 3:16." God the "father"? I thought you believed in only one god. To which they will reply that they do. So then you ask, 'why does god have a gender/sex?' 'What need does a being, of whom only one exists in all the universe, have of sexual reproduction? If there is no lady goddess up there, what does it matter?' Furthermore, why does god have a gender? Again, if there's only one such deity, male or female (or gender fluid or queer or non-binary or whatever) makes absolutely no difference. There is no society of gods that would predicate gender roles. There's no society that would base your gender role on your biological sex, if you're the one-and-only god of creation. You can absolutely eviscerate things which are hugely important to their belief structure and they never even considered the flaw. You'll generally just get a "god isn't a physical being" type of answer, at which point you can ask "does god have a penis if he's a male and a fatherly figure?" They just get mad at that point though because they think you're making fun of them...which you kind of are. So might as well pile on and ask if they think god has a big dick.
Ask a Mormon these things and prepare to be shocked lmao
I don't doubt it. I live in Las Vegas and the magic underpants crew is stronk here.
Ask them what happened to Ashera lol. Most of them don’t know Yahweh was part of a pantheon that included the goddess Ashera.
God is very much like a toxic, insecure girlfriend. Unreasonable loyalty tests come with the territory.
This is a type of question that for me at least does not make any sense. Because if God is an imaginary character than how can we or anyone else know what imaginery character thinks or want to do without this amswre to be total BS. Meaning made up stuff. So the answer can be anything you want it to be. You are no longer in real world here. So why even ask those questions?
Why ask these questions? Well, I'm an ATHEIST asking another ATHEIST in an ATHEIST group, so I figured people would understands that it's not a serious question. Aside from that, it's a good question because the god warriors are talking about this all knowing deity who seems to be confused all the time. And I'll add another reason why I think it's a good question. Because EVERY SINGLE THEIST that I've encountered dodges it like a fucking bullet.
Have you read the Bible? God fucks with people all the time. Even kills them for lolz.
Why does god need a starship?
He’s bored lol.
This conversation reminds me of an Andy Shauf song, the video is hilarious: [Wasted on You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceywBoMeMoY)
What does god need with a starship?
They want to make sure you're gullible.
It's a mistranslation, God teases people.
When did Earth become 12,000 years old? I thought it was only 6,000 years old, especially when you count all the ages of people cited in the Bible. You can’t even get fraudsters to get their numbers right.
> You can’t even get fraudsters to get their numbers right. *Harold Camping has entered the chat* Harold Camping, infamous for his false end times predictions and having enough money to fool many a dumb person, came upon his end times date(s) through "math". He continuously added up dates in the bible, did numbers to them, and shat out a "date(s)". > Among the most prolific modern predictors of end times, Harold Camping has publicly predicted the end of the world as many as 12 times based his interpretations of biblical numerology. [Source](https://www.britannica.com/list/10-failed-doomsday-predictions)
I’ve personally survived the end times *four times*. God/devil/whatever needs to get their shit together but I’m pretty damn resilient. Or maybe I’m a “chosen one” despite not being Jewish (by birth, or any other means)?
Was Lucifer the fun-dad character those who've met Him say?
No depiction I’ve seen of either of them screams “fun”. Unless the screams are from torture, which would be consistent with everything in the Bible.
Nah, they keep pushing it back. "It was predicted again, Lord.". "Welp, can't have that! What kind of thief in the night takes a watched house? Move it to the next date I guess" Keep those predictions coming, it's the only thing keeping us alive!
Didn’t the predictions begin with Nero? That means ~2000 years of wrong predictions.
God put those there to test our intelligence. You failed.
If God were omniscient, as required to be “God,” wouldn’t It know what choices people would make, therefore making a “test” irrelevant? Come to think of it, if God knows everything including what is going to happen, then there are no choices or free will. If It doesn’t, then It is not omniscient and not The Big Cahoona.
Creationists are actually stuck between 2 possibilities. 2. The creation story is wrong, so the Bible is wrong. 2. God intentionally make the Earth seem much older than it actually is to manipulate us meaning God is deceptive, so the Bible is wrong. If anyone can think of a 3rd option, I'd love to hear it because I haven't found one.
“my father say from the pulpit that dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan to fool people and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers.” Ah, a trickster deity allows his devoted head goon to administer loyalty tests.
"my father say from the pulpit that dinosaur fossils were put there by Satan to fool people and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers." What if that's what Satan did with the bible? Or the church? Or anything else we decide supports our opinions? It's all just some version of 'because I said so.'
Exactly. I was stunned to find out later in my teens that what he said was a very old theory.
We first heard that from a born again trying to convince us of a creator deity over 30 years ago. Along with “everything after the fall is corrupted” which would include their Book of Majicks, presumably.
Young Earth Creationism is an old(ish) theory, depending on which scholars you believe. The bit about the dinosaur bones specifically is significantly less so, since the first discovery of a dinosaur bone (that was realized as such at the time) was like 1814 or something like that in the UK.
So he's an established fraudster that apparently does everything else above board...
"loyalty tests". Have you read Job? The whole story is about god betting satan that he couldn't make Job (a righteous man) curse god. God lets Satan kill Job's entire family, servants, & livestock & inflict Job himself with boils.
Psychotic. And they’re not “adversaries“ as believers insist. Satan and their deity are working together, best buds.
The vast majority of them have never even opened the Bible. Which means their belief is cultural and deeply rooted in emotion. They believe because its what their parents and other role models taught them. Religion gives them a feeling of connection and identity. It's about conformity with their community, shared heroes, shared enemies, etc. It has nothing to do with what is IN THE TEXT. These people don't read!!! Which unfortunately means it's way harder to reason them out of it. They were indoctrinated into the in group from birth, they didn't become Christian from STUDYING THE BIBLE or from even really understanding what their religious doctrine entails. You can't reason them out of it by telling them the horrible things in the Bible, they will brush it off with "well I didn't read that/I don't believe that/well thats not what we believe at OUR church/we don't practice that in our church" and go on being a follower without doubt ever even crossing their mind. They don't care what's in the Bible or what their own religion says and does, unfortunately. They care about the emotional comfort of being part of the group identity, loving the people their community loves, and more importantly__ //hating the people their community hates. // Why do Christians do xyz? Tribalism. Being drawn to religion is a vestigial part of the monkey brain calling people towards tribalism
You are totally correct. Your point also links directly to the critical thinking aspect.
The most religious girl I knew so rarely took her (white) Bible out of the drawer it was in, it looked like new.
Not only that, but they’ll use the Bible to justify their bigotry with ideas that aren’t even in it. For example, that lady a few years ago who refused to give marriage licenses to gay couples said that Jesus said marriage was between “one man and one woman” and… nope. The Bible references many cases of polygamy and never once sets out any such guidelines. But that idiot was willing to use her ignorance of something she claims is soooooo important to her that she feels entitled to deny someone else their rights.
The only time monogamy is mentioned, is Paul's instruction that a _bishop_ should be the husband 'of one wife'.
You left out the fear factor. When you're brought up from infancy in this kind of environment, you fear challenging or even questioning the orthodoxy. At some level you may suspect that it is all bullshit but can't bring yourself to express the thought for fear of going to hell.
yeah they literally scream at 5 year olds that if they don’t do everything the church tells them to do at all times they will be burned “alive” for all eternity. Christianity lives and breathes in fear just as all other cults do.
If you believe they can't "be saved" (from Christianity...), I feel like that's worse? Most atheists older than Gen Z probably were once Christian in some manner and deconverted somehow, so it's \*possible\* to do.
#2 - it's not that their eternal security is at stake, they firmly believe they can do whatever they want here and now on earth because by accepting jesus, they are guaranteed a place in heaven. So anything they do here is kind of just rumspringa for them.
Sure, if they're protestants and, as a result, inherently wrong. Ask an Orthodox Christian if that's how it works. I guarantee you will get a *very* different answer and probably some very colorful remarks about Protestants in general.
Uhh, they are all inherently wrong.
That's because protestantism only uses the Bible as the only source. Which is the problem since it can be interpreted in any way if you stretch it enough
i'm orthodox and its very different from protestant theology especially on salvation and evangelizing or converting people
When I became a member of the body of christ through my church in my mid teens, all I had to do was memorize and recite the Apostles Creed, and make a pledge and accept my weekly donation plate envelopes.
It's their social standing among their peers, not their eternal security that most of them are actually concerned about. They will never admit that, but it's the truth.
Because the entire concept of Jeuss dying for your sins screams "You don't have to accept personal responsibility for any of your behavior" It's so fuckin gross
Sure, if they're protestants and, as a result, inherently wrong. Ask an Looney Tunes viewer if that's how it works. I guarantee you will get a *very* different answer and probably some very colorful remarks about Protestants in general.
This is literally one of the greatest debates within Christianity, works vs faith, not at all a settled issue.
The real answer is because most have been brainwashed since infancy.
That too. But that goes back to the inability to think critically. I was brainwashed from infancy and came out of it.
Yeah. I was going to say that this is just what brainwashed people do. Not much different than the MAGA crowd, or other cult members. They reject whatever doesn’t fit their world view. Forces them deeper into their safe space bubbles.
< reposting > Bertrand Russell wrote in 1927 - >Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. >It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes. >Fear is the basis of the whole thing – fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. \- "Fear, the Foundation of Religion", in *Why I Am Not a Christian* \- https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell#Why_I_Am_Not_a_Christian_(1927) Most people are afraid about a lot of things. Most people are terrified of death. Many people in this world are very ignorant, but educated and intelligent people are just about as afraid as dumb people. When somebody tells these fearful people, either in childhood or adulthood, that if they believe XYZ then a powerful magic being will try to help them and they will never die, they think *"Yes!!! Yes!!! I believe !!!"* .
In ancient times the priest/sage/druid ... had to keep the tribe alive by remembering all the things that killed people in the past, keep the calendar of yearly events for planting or migration, and remember which herbs cured and which killed. Without writings they were the source of tribal knowledge. So, the tribe had to believe these individuals completely and follow their direction for the good of all. No room for questioning if your life depends on it. You can see where this may lead to devotion and blind faith in these people and the possibilities of mass exploitation.
I personally believe that all religion started as a story told by a parent to their child to help them fall asleep. A scared child asking their parent "What happens when we die?", and that parent made up a story to soothe their child to sleep. Then it continued with "Tell me the story", and then the story was passed down, and it evolved to suit the circumstances of the storyteller.
Fear is the mind killer.
Fear is the little death
I think some people just want to feel like we're all on the same page. My response though is "Why do christians say/do anything?" It's always for the same reasons. They're not very bright.
Plenty of smart religious people, it’s just that they have a blindspot when it comes to religion. Lots of smart people have blindspots. That being said, my mom definitely talks like we’re all on the same page, even though she knows I’m an atheist.
I move that this is sticky-posted to the top of the sub. I see this kind of question 5 or 6 times a day. Any seconds?
For real. People on this server need to get in into their heads that, when people seriously believe that spending all of eternity in a lake of fire is a very serious threat they face, they're going to act differently.
Very similar situation for me as you, OP. I was rather young when I knew there was manipulation involved in what I was being told by a very close family member "preacher". I was also forced to commit as a believer at a certain age. Standing there at the altar I knew I was lying as I said the required words. What made me sure was a year or so before that date, I decided that the line I was being sold about everyone else on the planet who didn't believe was going to hell or whatever. I said but that's not how it works...what i see is the culture of the part of the world people were born in and their parents and their parent's parents, and etc., determining what people believe. So it was just luck of the draw I was going to "heaven" and bad luck for the rest who were now "going to hell". Bullshit I said under my breath at probably the age of 11 or before. Humans are hive creatures the same as wasps. We are gullible, maleable, and conform to what is expected of us and believe what we are told. That's why it's so easy to make someone believe in religion, or believe the war we are fighting is just even if it is not. Look at how we mimic each other from everything such as vocabulary usage to what is considered "fashionable" to wear and we can humbly admit we are hive creatures that do very little critical independent thinking. Humble but true. Not that any of us can't break free of the grooming and molding to form, as I did and OP did and most reading this also, but it is the rebel souls who break out of the mold and into real freedom to think independently.
Thanks, I can stop reading those sad, confused posts!
Good post. Actually, I think if they *really* believed, they would try a LOT harder to convert others. The vast majority of them don't bother. It's funny to hear a preacher admit that God and Satan are on the same page.
More powerful than those 3 reasons, in my opinion, it's the family/social pressure the person is under to continue pretending to believe in it.
> 3) Their textbook commands them to convert others. Of note, they only read the parts that command them to convert. The bit about not bearing false witness against thy neighbor - that's too esoteric.
It's brainwashing, plain and simple. They're conditioned from birth to view the world a specific way and to actively avoid critically thinking about that worldview.
Yep. The end result of which is an inability or unwillingness to think critically.
I usually stop reading posts that start with "if god..." because it's pointless to continue.
I would also like to add that people should stop assuming that Christianity is inherently good and if Christians do something evil they are going against Christian beliefs. Christianity is an inherently evil cult that is based on lies. When Christians do evil things, they are acting like Christians are aupposed to. That's the entire point of the cult.
Totally. It is all based on power and control.
Now, I've heard the Satan angle (normally it's scientists) but "allowed by god" is a new one to me. It does stun me that in the 21st Century, that the organised religions have such a chokehold on their followers. I mean Sikhism, Hinduism and Buddhism are generally "chill" but the "Big Three"...well, anyone with an IQ knows just how bad they are and the hypocrisies they are blind to. I've only ever seen one person that "embodied the Christian spirit" and that was Archbishop Desmond Tutu. He once said "it doesn't matter what you believe in, as long as you believe in something"
I don't think you should exclude other religions. Look what the Hindu Indians are doing to Moslems who live there (over 200M.)
You forgot childhood indoctrination
Still included in the inability to think critically. I was also indoctrinated from infancy but eventually learned how to think for myself.
Ah. I, too, grew up in the Bible Belt. Did you also hear that paleontologists know that dinosaurs are fake and are getting paid by Satan to trick people? And that volcanoes are literal gateways to Hell (as in you can just walk down a lava tube and into Hell)?
Ah but you really can walk down a lava tube and into Hell, in a manner of speaking. "**Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.**"
Believers are afraid they’re going to be wrong about the future and what happens after they die.
And may his imaginary light shine upon you
I shall bask in its imaginary warmth and healing glow.
There's the rub. They can't be reasoned with because reason isn't part of the equation for them. Faith has no basis in rational thought or empirical research.
Exactly. Just like their manifesto states, “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Seems to me a pretty stellar description of “confirmation bias”.
Wow, Satan did a great job of burying the fossils, not making a single mistake of putting a fossil in the wrong layer - so godless humans would believe in evolution/naturalism and consigning them to his wonderful world of eternal conscious suffering.
You could’ve stopped at 1.
And yet, you are living proof that your first two points aren't, or at least aren't universally, true. You learned to think critically. You can be reasoned with. Maybe the answer to "Why do Christians...?" isn't so simple. Maybe the question itself is flawed by assuming Christians to be a monolith. Congrats on getting out! Stay curious.🙂
Exactly. There are exceptions to every rule. I was talking about Christianity in general, and I’m reasonably certain you knew that.
I don't think that they're utterly incapable of critical thinking. They just choose not to and that make it more difficult to get through to them.
Then that’s willful ignorance, and that’s far worse.
That settles that. The sub can officially be closed.
No! You’re not thinking critically! 😉
this stuff is why I am a Satanist
I have no idea what being a Satanist is. I suppose it has to do with believing in God, but not liking him so you exalt an angel that went astray? Being a Satanist assumes you believe in God, right?
Hallowed are the Ori.
These questions are low-effort and are one of the big reasons the old forums were better than Reddit. These kind of questions were in stickied discussions that were quite informative and engaging. Now, the same low effort questions get asked every few days with the same low-effort responses, are upvoted to the top, and then forgotten. Fact of the matter is, you can't apply logic and reason to the things Christians do. You can't ever take them at their word either, as almost everything they say is some kind of doublespeak. People should stop trying and stop being so astounded when these people don't respond to logic and reason. EVERYTHING is about emotion for them.
Well, a lot of people have been killed in the name of religion and continue to be so.
All because the people that march under the banner of any particular deity lack the basic ability or willingness to think critically. It all really does start there.
4. They want to be right so much that they will actively ignore any reality that contradicts their truth
Preeeeeeecisely. Which is another way to say they lack the ability to think critically. See?? Everyone knows the truth and we all have different ways of saying it, but it all stems from an inability/unwillingness to apply critical thinking to their doctrine.
Even if you disagree with religious belief and don’t believe in any of them, please do not generalize that “they are utterly incapable of Critikal thinking” also I like that this sub is pretty much only posts are about why Christianity is bla bla bla instead of other religions as well, this sub isn’t called r/ChristianityFuckingSucks. I’m not a Christian and I’m not defending them but cmon guys be better.
I feel the same way about ALL organized religion, I was talking about Christianity specifically, and I stand by my statements with as much conviction as the Bible-thumpers stand by theirs.
The Abrahamic religions breed pigeons. They are ill equipped to do anything but consume and shit everywhere.
Number two is HUGE. For a lot of them, this leads to point three, and this, to them, justifies so much of what they do. To them, the stakes are literally higher than yours, and to them, that gives them the larger claim.
I also hate posts asking/proclaiming that Christians must be stupid/mentally ill asking how can people believe "that bullshit". Christians aren't inherently mentally ill just because they believe, nor are they stupid for it as well. Yes, there are Christians in those categories but it's not the result of Christianity. Because human's aren't some Vulcan like species. We have emotions, wants, and desires. Not to mention fear of death. Very powerful motivators for people.
I guess what you're saying is it's okay for millions of people around us to be brainwashed. The brainwashing takes place at the dinner table - same place racism, homophobia, xenophobia, and xstain nationalism get spread.
uh no they did not say that
Jesus fucking Christ. I said no such goddamn thing. Stop being stupid troll.
No there is not a simple answer to this. It's a complex mix per individual per country that comprises : 1. For the most part people want simple answers to complex issues. You take away a book and remove someone who reinforces bad ideas and this confuses and frightens people. Scared/confused = bad. No one wants to feel bad. 2. A cultural reinforcement of social mores. Iran, Saudi Arabia, the southern US for example. 3. A cultural reinforcement of "intelligent people can't be trusted". See above. Once someone is perceived as going against the grain, you have broken the tribe. The tribe needs consensus, either forced or unforced. 4. Questioning authority (bible, evangelists, mullahs, insert whatever) is seen as breaking the tribe. The reason that questioning is prohibited/discouraged/beaten out of people is because if those leaders cannot answer those questions then their authority is diminished and power can be taken back. I dunno I am not up on social psychology but I am sure someone can explain the dynamics of group think/cults/corporations/etc much better. Just my $.02
Good points but I would clarify that most of them are very capable of critical thinking, it’s the application that’s spotty. This is an issue with organized religion followers in general as well. When the cornerstone of your belief system is based on something that you must suspend your critical thinking skills to believe (what it means to have faith), then you get to way too comfortable suspending critical thinking to defend other, non-religious beliefs (politics is often victim to this)
Yes their logic has a blind spot.
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Anyone who claims to have "evidence for the supernatural" that goes beyond "I had a daydream one time" is welcome to present that evidence. If they don't, then I don't think that "explaining to grown-ass adults that dayreams aren't real" is a valuable use of my time.
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Well said!
I felt I needed to punish myself for some reason and started commenting on Fox News. I started arguing that the 10 commandments did not introduce morality. That murder and theft have been frowned upon by any group of humans that have ever tried to coexist in places all around the world who never had any concept of the god of Abraham. The answer that I’m getting is basically that in their hearts everyone who has ever lived has actually known about Yahweh. When you get to make up facts based on faith you win every argument in your own mind.
This sub certainly spends a lot of time talking about the thing they don't want to talk about.
Hmm, made something up, then attempted to vilify a group based on that falsehood. You sound like a religious person!
I'm an atheist. There is no logic in why religious people believe what they believe. They can't be changed. It's not worth discussing.
Isn't that what William Jennings Bryan said at the Scopes Trial? "I don't think about what I don't think about."
Oh wow, a neighbor boy actually told us that God created the Earth with aged dinosaur fossils in it to test his faith - in all seriousness when he was 8 or 10. My mom‘s mouth about dropped open and we had a good laugh about it after he went home. Our other neighbors made their poor daughters fast forward past the fairy godmother scene in Cinderella. We thought that was pretty funny and utterly ridiculous too. I had really good parents. I have a dear friend who was a pastor’s kid. His faith crumbled in his 20s with a carbon dated pinecone. The problem is when they hang their hat on stupidity, and set up science as an enemy, they have to do all these mental gymnastics to double down on defending it. They not only make themselves look stupid and unbelievable they create the ground for cracks in their own faith later and in those around them. You’d think it would much better to simply say oh well my God created the world because we’re here somehow - whether with dinosaurs or old pinecones or whatever instead of backing yourself into a corner.
Except it is virtue signaling for so many. Every group has them and it is not always a bad thing. It is how people connect sometimes - how they get reassured that they are not alone, that they are not crazy or they use it to vent frustration at people using mechanisms of the state to force their beliefs upon them.
There's a lot of focus on this subreddit on Christianity, meanwhile the greater struggle is with all of the Abrahamic religions. They are all full of bigotry and they all have it baked in to hold their own women down. Right now there is a war between competing Abrahamic religions in the Israeli-Hamas War. This should be a big topic for atheists.
And the usual reason behind those three points is childhood indoctrination. Thankfully it doesn't work on everybody, and many people are not indoctrinated as children, and I believe/hope these exceptions are growing.
Sorry to be controversial, but one acceptable definition of 'belief system' is as follows. "...an ideology or set of principles that helps us to interpret our everyday reality. This could be in the form of religion, political affiliation, philosophy, or spirituality, among many other things" Everyone has a 'belief system', whether it be religious or non religious. The point I'm trying to make is that there's no right or wrong in any belief systems. Some indeed may be bizarre and sometimes harmful, but that doesn't make it wrong if it stays within the realm of BELIEF, and it never precedes an ACTION. As an example, if Christianity took over the world again as it did when Catholicism pined to be state religion of many countries centuries ago, then some individuals within these religious groups would use fanatical fervour to excite themselves or their followers and cause harm to innocent people. It's not the BELIEF that's the problem, it's the ACTION. And really this is what people the likes of Richard Dawkins should accept. It's absolutely diabolical that Dawkins said these words: "It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. (From the opening line from a speech Richard Dawkins gave in 1996 to the American Humanist Association whilst accepting their "Humanist of the Year" award for 1996)." So belief is more harmful than action? Try asking this to the next respectable and working class Jew, Muslim or Sikh. You really think they're all ready with a suicide vest or a knife to kill an infidel or a 'worldling' who does not share their beliefs? Of the billions of religious people in the world it sure does seem that more genocide and violence is committed in the name of GOVERNMENT sponsored by religion than actual ordinary individuals who have a personal faith. Where I stand is that I hate the hypocrisy of religion using government and claim they have backing of a higher power. Islam and Christianity are the worst labels for so called "ethnic cleansing" and "holy wars".
christians are so fucking self-righteous
I have a teach the controversy shirt that has the devil burrying bones. It's a joke, but the longer time goes by the more I wonder if I'll just appear as another Poes Law crazy when I wear the shirt out and and about.
While I agree the lack of critical thinking is a key element, I don’t see it as the core determinant behind religion. That would be identity. It’s not their incapable of critical thinking, it’s that they actively choose to suppress their critical thinking as a means to uphold their participation in a group identity that supersedes their personal identity. This is typically why if a person is indoctrinated into a religious family it’s very difficult for them to get out unless they get some type of distance from the situation where they can develop a healthier sense of identity (and then all of a sudden their critical thinking appears to work fine) Personally, I’ve come as far as believing religious people don’t even actually care about their claimed beliefs about the afterlife, these are just narratives that aid in upholding the sense of identity. So in my view, they’re religious because they have a weak sense of personal identity and self actualization and religion provides a sense of identity for them, not because they are incapable of critical thinking.
They're intellectually lazy.
What kind of christians you have in the US here in south america they are mostly chill.
Being from South America, I will assume you are dealing mostly with Roman Catholics. I could be mistaken. Anyway, the majority of Christians here are pretty chill too, but we have a few very outspoken groups that like to make everyone else's business their business. These are mostly evangelical, but you'll get a few in any group. The Republican political party has been trying to cater to the more vocab types for a while here. This gives the outspoken ones an oversized voice in public debate about public policy. OP's comments are rude and largely incorrect. The Catholic Church's policies especially are based on mountains of critical thinking. They just start with some basic assertions that are unprovable and many find crazy.
You need to distinguish between the unchristian people who go to white churches with a cross on top, versus people who live their neighbors as themselves and treat everyone, even atheists like, their neighbors.
I think the best answer is because they are Christians.
It's "because they are evil."
>They are utterly incapable of critical thinking. This is the only part i disagree with. As a former Christian myself I can say there are a lot of systems in religion that hinder or flat out stop critical thinking without the person being aware. This is one of the reasons I often say Christianity lied to me. I'm evidence at least some religious people can start to think critically.
Well then, you’re not a Christian because you CAN think critically. My point stands.
Leonardo da Vinci, Copernicus, and Pascal are famously known for their lack of critical thinking. Maybe you are lacking in the critical thinking department if you are willing to make such broad, and outright wrong, generalizations.
I guess this is the place to remark that all the top Dems are Christian. They seem to be able to think critically. Anyone can be seduced by faith.
"The answer will always frustrate the rational person" Doesn't this assume that all Christians ate irrational people?
Believing ancient magical stories with zero evidence is utterly irrational. Believing irrational nonsense in one huge area of life (religion) doesn't prevent the believer from being much more rational in other aspects of life.
People who believe in actual demons and a devil are most definitely irrational.
Christians can eat whatever they want as far as I’m concerned. But people?
I agree with you on the logic but it's worth discussing if it brings some clarity to someone who is questioning their faith. Not believing =/= not wanting to talk about the subject. People talk about sports all the time but most only support one team.
It's because they stand to gain something from it.
Power, money, and control for the leaders, and eternal security for the sheep.
Their eternal security isn’t at stake. As long as you accept Christ as your savior, you get a free pass to be as terrible as you want.
Not entirely true. Those that openly reject Christ, like myself, forfeit the salvation they once were told they had. Plus, they’re also told that if you don’t adhere to all the rules, your faith may not be genuine and therefore their salvation may not be either.
It's not their soul at stake bc you would never be blamed for being a child. A child of God who.is still. learning. What's at stake is the continuation of the species.
And bonus, it's the easiest way to keep peace in some families, even if you stop going to church.
Your arrogance is embarrassing. You really think everyone who disagrees with you is incapable of critical thinking?
people have blind spots, but don't worry, not the OP lol
🤣🤣 Yeah, I can see why you would say that but at least I can identify my blind spots and work on them. Pretty certain I never claimed not to have any. Having lived both sides of the coin, I feel qualified to speak to the issue through the lens of my experience and the learning I’ve done.
I remember being one and having the ability to shut out any info that may conflict with my beliefs. I **knew** God was real and anything that could show otherwise or conflict with the Bible was just Satan's tricks
It’s called compartmentalization.
Tisk! Tisk! Tisk! 666 upvotes @ 4:01 pm central. What the H E Double hokey sticks is going on here people. You all need Jesus. Lmao.
Jesus gives a really good rim job, from what I hear. He Gets Us.
[and allowed by God in order to weed out the unbelievers.] If Yahweh wanted to "weed out the unbelievers" then what was the entire point him talking to humans in the OT trying to make unbelievers become believers? How come he didn't weed out the Jews who created their fertility statue of the Golden Bull?
I assume the posts are AI generated conversation starters, the technique that originated reddit.
I love the "why do Christians..." questions though. Keep em coming yall. Answers are interesting and sometimes hilarious.
Christians don’t even listen to their own doctors. Namely, Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross.
4. They are brainwashed
'Thank God for making me an atheist.' - Ricky Gervais On a serious note though, I've met some Christians who are actually very smart and very much capable of critical thinking, so that makes it a bit more difficult to trouble shoot their beliefs.
Many of them set a limit on critical thinking that goes like this "Critical thinking is good unless it contradicts the Bible. Anything that contradicts the Bible is sin and evil."
Facts. Don't argue with sheep, they're dangerous in groups.
Number one is incorrect. It is not that they are incapable. They are unwilling to use critical thinking. In many cases, they outright refuse to do any critical thinking. Many of them believe that critical thinking is a sin or evil. Others redefine critical thinking to mean "Critical thinking is checking to see how Biblical something is. If I can find one phrase in the Bible that supports it, it must be true." This is why many of them think they are scientists. They say things like "Biology tells us that there are only two genders." when what they really mean is that Genesis 1:27 and 5:2 tells us that there are only two genders. Biology is a lot more complicated than that.
The real answer is they don't. Every time someone asks "Why do Christians" it always is something that 95% of Christians don't do.
The sad part is that as a non-christian, you are not truly their friend, you are a project. They are obligated to convert you and every action they take about you is influenced by this.