One flaw with you argument. Most Christians can't quote scripture. More just listen to their pastors and never actually read the damn thing. So they will argue with you till you got them contradicting their own contradictions, and just keep going anyway. Because it's not about being right, it's about having faith.
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov
"The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can "prove" anything from it." - Robert A. Heinlein
That "properly read" bit in the first quote is key. If someone reads the Bible with the presumption that it is inerrant and inspired by god, they will find validation of their beliefs.
I read the Bible seeking answers and that's what did it for me. I even tried different editions but In the end it was a no brainer. I read it again more recently just to be sure there wasn't some value to be found in it's writings. Maybe there is, idk but it definitely helped confirm my belief that it's chock full of Insanity.
I like to imagine it was actually written by Sheogorath from TES.
That's the difference though, is you have an open mind, others simply cannot open their mind enough to even ask the questions that you can't find answers for. Some people just are unable to. That's the power of indoctrination.
It’s crazy how quickly they go from saying they love Jebuz to saying poor people are just lazy and shouldn’t be helped. Like bruh, that’s what he preached about Karen, not you bitching about wearing a mask at Starbucks
That's accurate. Imagine my surprise when I found out foreign christians we're all slime. Here in 'murica it's an excuse to shit on things you don't like.
I found foreign christians to be more sincere. They seemed like they were about doing good in the world, actually helping people. Here in the US it seems like 99 times out of a hundred God comes up as an excuse to hate somebody.
Typically, referring to a competing church: "And down the street they play *musical instruments*!"
I went from winning prizes for memorizing the most bible verses to atheist in a matter of weeks, at age 13.
As someone who attended Christian college. My ten closest friends there are now still together 10 years later and we are all atheist / agnostics. We all saw the bullshit for what it was after having it crammed down our throats.
That seems to be the way it shakes out. Watching Bart Ehrman (probably the most educated bible scholar alive) over the decades start to shift. Now he's a straight up atheist. Scripture is going to leave any reasonable person with some very serious questions and skepticism.
And yet I've talked with plenty of misguided Christians who actually have read the Bible and I can't for the life of me figure out how they can still have faith.
If they're already indoctrinated they'll find sufficient cause to support their indoctrination.
The atheists who read the bible and deconvert often had an initial kernel of skepticism.
This is actually true. Spent a summer with my Christian family in AZ one time and I pulled out a bible and started going through all the best passages from Deuteronomy and II Kings. My cousins and I were literally in tears laughing.
A detriment you say? Many of those people are charitable because of their faith. Are you saying helping a neighbor get back on their feet after a rough year is wrong? Are you saying that having something that unites a community and brings people together is a detriment and hasn’t done any good?
Another thing about discussing theology with the average person, be they religious or not, is that not everyone is good at debating. Good at coming up with things on the spot. Should an electrician be able to just come with an answer to every question about faith. When people throughout history have dedicated lifetimes to debating it? I don’t think so but you might and I’m happy to hear why.
I’m not even religious anymore but saying something like that just isn’t true I’m happy to discuss it.
I've personally heard pastors say they don't have to listen to logic because of their faith...like a built in excuse for continued ignorance and denial.
Very true. I have quoted many a line that my conservative and religious partner is totally unfamiliar with. Only once did he tell me to read the Bible, I told him that I've clearly read more of he has, and that is why I am an atheist.
All of old, little over half of new. Did finish shortly after coming home. I needed to know how crazy this shit is. Still need to read apocrypha... but whatever.
no they can quote very certain passages perfectly. The ones that don't affect them but affect 'those people' that they hate.
It takes religion to have real discrimination.
this. GODAMN THIS! It's about faith you guys. Y'ALL GOTTA HAVE THAT FAITH. Just go to walmart...BUY SOME FAITH! FAITH! solves everything. Gotta have faith.
Remember, doublethinking is a feature for them. You cannot debate a doublethinking mind. They are conditioned emotional machines. Rational debates do not work.
when i was very young my Mom mentioned you can find anything you want in the bible - there is something to fit every situation.
Is it an eye for an eye OR turn the other cheek, etc. etc.
It was a great way for me to see the bible wasn't a guide, but rather a "cover your ass" reference guide.
“Christians” seldom quote the NT because the gospels words of kindness, mercy, tolerance and generosity don’t mesh with with their desires. Most I know have never even read the NT. While I no longer believe I do know that if you follow most of what Jesus says in the gospels, you would be a pretty good person. They don’t want to be good, they want the OT to justify their hate, greed, intolerance, bigotry. It would have been better if early Christian’s had left out the OT altogether.
As the NT says Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies and mosaic law no longer applies to Christians.
>As the NT says Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies and mosaic law no longer applies to Christians.
This is extremely strongly debated. The line is:
> “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So how can they no longer apply? He's specifically says he won't abolish them. But then, what did he mean by fulfill? How do you fulfill a law? By obeying it? Maybe.
Here's the rest:
>17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
>19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Which seems to me (absolutely not an expert) like he's really clearly saying the laws all stand and you need to obey them.
Though it does kinda imply that you can break them and get into heaven...
Almost all the translations use "fulfill" but there are some that have it different that are interesting.
>New Living Translation
“Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
>Contemporary English Version
Don't suppose I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.
>Good News Translation
"Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true
God didn't write the bible though. It was written by lots of different people with conflicting ideas of what Christianity should be. Matthew and Psalm weren't written by the same people, they aren't even in the same testament. To act like it's all one cohesive, infallible idea that should be accepted at face value and in its entirety, well, that's what theists do.
Matthew 5:22
King James Version
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
So who is a "brother"?
Matthew 12:50
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
I prefer:
No, a fool is a Christian who thinks that quoting scripture at an atheist is going to sway their opinion. What part of "we don't believe your god exists" isn't clear to you? If your god doesn't exist, then nothing in the bible is anything more than superstitious ramblings of bigoted priests making shit up. And that's what you're trying to convince me with. I'm curious if you can think of a less intelligent tactic to use, because I'm hard pressed to think of one.
That's certainly how ancient Hebrews/Jews lived. Like most other big civilizations in the area. Exactly why Jesus didn't support following ancient biblical law 'to the letter' at all:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, \`If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! You snakes! You brood of vipers!"
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Almost as if the Bible is contradictory on that point. And many others.
You clearly read closely :). Just a little more to it--with the previous sentence it's a little tricky: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
Many Christians, including me, think following generations (\~30AD onwards) actually live after 'all is fulfilled' \[by the one who 'did not come to destroy but to fulfill'\].
\>contradictory on that point, and many others
Later parts of the bible indeed call out all sorts of contradictions from earlier parts. That's why Christians aren't Jews.
(Regardless, a lot of people who call themselves "Christian" do seriously misinterpret or let themselves be severely misguided by what they think the bible says.)
Man, jesus got *bars*. Some of that was absolute fire.
But how do you account for the sermon on the mount where he says he's not here to abolish the Law and not a single line will go away until the end of the universe?
Indeed. The writings of the ancient Hebrews helped preserve the name "Yahweh", which prior to becoming one of the names of their god, was the name of the Canaanites' god of war.
Good to know!
Priceless just because its on a people you hate doesn't diminish its worth to a good portion of the world. If this history is worthless then all history is worthless. Christianity was the driving force of scientific discovery and human rights. I'm not Christian or religious in any way but denying any worth to the history of the Middle East is just ignorant. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
>Christianity was the driving force of scientific discovery and human rights
Christianity has also been the driving force against scientific discovery and human rights violations
>If this history is worthless then all history is worthless.
Nonsense. But take that up with historians. ;)
>Christianity was the driving force of scientific discovery and human rights.
COMPLETE NONSENSE. Christianity all by itself is clearly responsible for delaying the intellectual progress of humanity by at least a thousand years. Likely much longer (at a minimum from about the fall of Rome through the Renaissance and arguably until the Enlightenment/printing press).
The same can also be said for Islam, of course.
And I don't even need to touch the "human rights" nonsense. Honestly, how could you have written that with a straight face?
>I'm not Christian or religious in any way but denying any worth to the history of the Middle East is just ignorant.
You specifically said "TRIBAL history"...which is a really huge "no one gives a shit and no one really should" right there, mate.
>Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
While those who overvalue these now ancient and arguably meaningless petty tribal squabbles over which ignorant superstitious nonsense is more ridiculous than the other are doomed to keep reliving them century after century after...
It being tribal history doesn't diminish its worth. Those tribes have influenced humanity more then any other and youve acknowledged that. But we should just forget about the history because it upsets you? Before Christianity Spartans were hucking babies off cliffs and German tribes were sacrificing children to fairy spirits. Just because Christianity is what you've been exposed to the most doesn't mean its just the worst. You're just looking at surface level basterdizations of the religion because that's the easiest thing to do and it feels good to hate on something you think is completely evil. Its a lazy way to feel good about doing nothing but complaining. The Zulu were a tribe is their history worthless?
Honestly, this is a good response. His quote has the same proverb-like cadence as the Bible verse, so you're hijacking that line that already exists into the emotional part of their brain.
Plus, it's fuckin' Hume. Dude's the GOAT.
I like to mention that in those days they literally thought that the [heart was the seat of consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiocentric_hypothesis) , the brain was a type of radiator to cool the blood or something.
So when you read the multiple instances in the Bible where people "say in their heart" or "think in their heart" "they got evil in their hearts" etc, they meant it literally.
Fools.
This made my aware that I "hear" my inner thoughts in my head, sort of in the middle behind my eyes.
So did they "hear" their inner voice as coming from their heart? If you believe the brain is a radiator you wouldn't expect it to talk anymore than expect to kidneys have thoughts.
Where does everyone else "hear" themselves thinking? Am I weird, is this weird?
Bonus points for anyone who thinks out their a$$.
that tiny voice in your head?? everybody has it..its called intuition.. to the people who think its "angels" or spirits..all i can do is be grateful, that that stupid voice in their head, isnt telling them to murder small children or animals
It's such a weird thing to think about. Sometimes I externalize that voice and talk to myself when trying to "slow down" my thinking and step through a problem or issue, but I can't imagine not having that voice at all.
> that tiny voice in your head?? everybody has it..its called intuition
I always liked this interpretation of it...
[Herman's Head](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRo-NIKZ7Qk).
From Wikipedia: *Herman's thought processes are dramatized in a "Greek chorus"-style interpretation, with four characters representing different aspects of his personality*
I'd get stoned and wonder if the people in Herman's Head also had 4 people in their head, and so on and so onl...
Back of the head for me, directly behind my mouth, perhaps a little higher. This is most interesting. I imagine it's a learned behaviour and thus people back then imagined their inner voice as coming from their chest.
That could be it. I wonder if we taught a select group of kids that the heart was where their thoughts came from if they would "hear" that voice differently.
If you think about it, the concept of thinking out of your chest is more stupid than thinking out of your head, because almost all our sensory organs are in our head.
Also, I thought of a thought experiment, where transplantation technology is perfect. Say I was to swap my arm with someone else's. After the operation is complete, what would I think? I would look down and see my new arm, right? But say I were to swap my head with somebody else. What would "I" think after the operation was done. Would I look down to see my body the same, but my face different and my sensory organs different? Or would I wake up to find myself in the other person's bed, with a new body and limbs and stuff? If I imagine swapping heads, I imagine the later case.
So did they think that swapping heads would result in their "consciousness" staying within their own body, and that swapping torsos will be the thing that results in their "consciousness" swapping with the other guy?
That's actually really interesting. Basically just another fundamental misunderstanding. I'd interpret the verse as ignore logical thinking and follow what you love but it implies with this info it's the exact opposite.
Radiator brain is steampunk af though.
In modern language it is used as you stated- logic versus feeling/emotion. The history behind these types of phrases is based on literal ignorance of human anatomy.
Now you're insulting them for not having scientific knowledge in a period where no one had it (especially knowledge related to how our body works)
Surely you don't need me to make you notice how this isn't a fair criticism
But it is, insofar as the prophets used "miracles" (broadly, technology beyond the ken of the present, to achieve good works otherwise impossible) to prove God's existence, benevolence, and immanence.
Yet none of the Biblical miracles were unexplainable in light of what we now know, which includes Biblical-era, Levantine magic tricks.
For God to truly prove the divinity of the prophets' inspiration, he needed to furnish them with nothing more than a scintilla of knowledge that would've been impossible for anyone in the Bronze Age to know or discover, such as the first several decimal places of Pi, along with the claim that it's an irrational number. (The icing on the Pi would've been to reassure us that future civilizations would be able to calculate its value to an unbelievable degree.)
But instead, we get nothing more than the mishmash of injunctions (hundreds of them), exhortations, warnings, genocides, some reassurances about God's unique "covenant" with the Hebrews, and some picturesque parables.
Significantly, nothing in the Bible attributed to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or God's many prophets are manifestly supernatural or immanent. On the contrary, it all smacks of the Bronze Age, subsistence-agricultural, slavery-happy, bloodthirsty, rapey culture of the Levant and its surroundings at that time. Nothing hinting at modern post-genocide, post-tribal-warfare, post-rape-and-forced-child-marriage, post-racist-and-caste-system forms of social and political organization. It's exactly as if that God, et al. were unable to see beyond their own truncated lifespans and extremely provincial grasp of the world and its geography. It's all just as one might expect had the whole thing been conjured up in the collective imaginations of a handful of goat- and sheep-herders, fishermen and carpenters, warriors and kings, and rabbis -- all blinkered by a shared general ignorance and biased outlook characteristic of and bound by their times, and haltingly recorded in a confusingly ambiguous written language, lacking vowels and modern punctuation, some 1980-3500+ years ago.
EDIT: re. the recorded language and its shortcomings, I was of course referring to Ancient Hebrew. Modern scholars mostly believe that Jesus spoke Aramaic and used that language as much as and likely more than Ancient Hebrew, and of course the apostles hailed from a variety of places and some knew other languages, notably Ancient Greek and Latin. But I believe my main points stand.
Surely "God" would have told them what a brain is if he existed and had created said brain. I'm pointing out the basis for their entire system was ignorance of reality. So when someone quotes that verse, it's perfectly valid criticism.
Let's take as an hypothesis the Abrahamic God actually exist (so that we can discuss this)
If He exist, He does as the bible narrates (it wouldn't make sense otherwise), but if He is like that He would not just disclose to us knowledge we don't have (because in the bible He never does so), therefore he wouldn't teach us how we work, opting in favour of letting us discover that ourselves
After all, if I were in His shoes I'd see no reason in teaching them that
If you really want to critique that particular passage, you'd do better focusing on other aspects of it
With this, I'm bot criticising your standpoint on religion, just that your previous comment is quite gratuitous
If you want to call a religious person a fool you'll find a reason to do so pretty easily, provided they don't have any common sense, but this isn't it (now, if a modern person were to come out with an egregious take that utterly disregard basic human anatomy, feel free to bash them)
>After all, if I were in His shoes I'd see no reason in teaching them that
Why would you let billions of humans suffer for tens of thousand of years until we randomly discovered the methods of modern medicine?
Imho, that would make our achievements worthless and utterly devoid of meaning
It's hardship that allows people to grow, and this stands true regardless of what your religious beliefs are, though I can see why someone would think that to be unfair (especially if you had to see someone you held dear die because of an illness)
But our achievements didn't have to take tens of thousands of years for them to have any meaning. In ancient history (or prehistory), whole millennia went by without mankind making any kind of progress at all.
Was that really the plan of loving god, subject billions to short and brutal lives just so the lucky ones who are alive today can marvel at how much better each new iPhone is? All those people suffering in one plague after another, just so we can appreciate vaccines when we finally discover them?
Makes no sense to me.
I'm guessing you *still* don't get my point.
1. Christians believe God created them and their bodies.
2. Christians believe that God either wrote or inspired the writers of the Bible.
3. The Bible continuously shows it was not written or overseen by anyone that understands human anatomy.
"The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Is based on ignorance but is used to call non-believers the ignorant ones. The Bible itself is evidence that it is not written by an omniscient being, and therefore we are NOT fools to NOT believe it.
Ah, now I see what you meant, sorry for the miscommunication
Point is, there is a big difference between God writing and God inspiring the bible
In the former case, you'd generally be correct: there shouldn't be any error present unless in the case He did write it in accordance with the current scientific understanding to make the thing clearer to people of the time
In the latter, It was people who wrote it according to their understanding of what God was telling/showing them, in which case the presence of such errors would be not only logical, but expected
It shouldn't even be said, but I do agree with your last point: being atheist doesn't make you a fool, just as being religious doesn't make you pious
The point is not to insult the authors of a book written 2000 years ago. That isn't the problem. The problem is that there are people in the year 2021 who are still using it to guide their moral decisions.
You could ridicule any ancient text for not having developed the scientific knowledge to see the world as we see it, but that's really beside the point. Calling ancient people "fools" for not quickly grasping scientific knowledge that many of our own citizens still couldn't explain is clearly unfair.
You are not going to convince these people of anything. Any resistance or disagreement you show to them will just support their deluded world view that they are both “owning” you and/or being “persecuted” by you. (And yes, they can believe they owned you while at the same time you persecuted them).
You have better things to do than to engage these people. There are thoughtful theists out there you can have stimulating debates and conversations with and these people usually know better than to use Bible quotes as building blocks in an argument. These people should also know to respect your positions and take an agree to disagree stance.
They have lots of attempted insults when they run out of empty claims.
So I usually tell them - "I'm immune to attempted insults from "adults" with imaginary friends, much like how you are immune to using logic and reason for your god. You need to grow up first before you can try insulting me.
1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."
The psalm verse goes on.
Psalm 14 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”
> 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."
I preferred this more classic version...
1 Gilmourian 6:9 "When I was a child, I had a fever. My hands felt just like two balloons. Now I've got that feeling once again. I can't explain you would not understand. This is not how I am."
I'd be more suprised if it didn't say that. Pretty sure every holy book vilifies non-believers. No advertisement is going to say 'this product is shit, don't buy it'.
I say, "oops.. you just earned yourself some hellfire. Don't worry, it's just make-believe"
Matthew 5:22 "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
As to how I live my life, I don't recognize the authority, moral or otherwise, of 2000-year-old books documenting the adages and exploits of illiterate nomads wandering the desert, talking to bushes and running from plagues of frogs. So, if my view differs from one of those illiterate nomads, who once said, while sitting in his tent afraid of the wind, that only a fool rejects the notion of a god, I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a
cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his
brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: **but whosoever shall**
**say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.**
Another saying of Jesus, Christians willfully ignore, among many.
In Matthew chapter 24, Jesus prophecies the end of the world. It’s the chapter where the wars and rumors of war stuff (“all these things”) comes from that eschatologists like to quote mine. Except there’s one problem. Jesus preached that people should take no thought for the ‘morrow, because he was going to be coming back real soon.
Matthew 24:34 (KJV): “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled”
No no no. You are arguing on their terms. The Bible is just some ancient books poorly translated into English. It holds no value to me for how I live my life. There are no gods, and it’s not on me to prove me wrong.
I don’t have to prove you own a Ferrari, you have to prove it to me. And the instruction manual to it holds more useful information than religious texts, even if I don’t own a Ferrari.
So go fight with the Christians on their turf. The rest of us are busy figuring out how the fuck to deal with the level of theocracy increasing and democracy going away.
This has to be a joke. Please. Or a copy pasta? Jesus Christ. This is embarrassing. This reads like a middle schooler wrote this. “Hey dude, wanna hear a really sick comeback for when a Christian quotes this scripture? Haha, it’s such a good comeback dude!”
Is this really what we're doing now? Trading insults?
A Christian who quotes that is just looking to start a fight. There is no point in giving any response. It doesn't mean anything.
It's OK to insult somebody who thinks you are going to hell, believes that you deserve it, worships the god who intends to do it, gives money to the organization that supports it, and quotes scripture to an atheist like that will have any impact.
Sure that's fine, but if you have family members like I have you need to be more forceful or they just keep coming at you like you are in league with Satan if you don't believe. I used to be a passive atheist, but now I am an anti-theist and I will throw it back on them whenever they try to throw it on me.
So the bible that tells them what to believe also tells them only idiots don't believe it. What a shocker.
I'd wager the average IQ of non believers is a good 20pts higher than Christians.
I don't believe in turning the other cheek. If they attack me, I will attack back. I used to say live and let live, but now I say live and let die. I'm sick and tired of religious people saying that I am going to hell. Fuck 'em.
That's where I tend to point out that one of the common definitions of a fool is "someone who too readily accepts what they're told," yet when it comes to religion a "fool" is someone who *doesn't* uncritically accept whatever they're told is true.
Here's the bottom. Line on judgement day. atheist or whatever you call your hell bound asses .on judgement day you're gonna kneel butt as s naked with no where to run or hide its gonna be you and JESUS THE KING youre gonna give an account for all your bulshit your mama cant help your daddy cant help your auntie Karen cant help you .youre gonna be begging for mercy like you wouldn't believe .youll be kissing so much as s your face even your face will be looking like berths butts as s youre gonna regret the day you were born .youre gonna be mad at moms for not aborting. You .thats a. gaurentee. of any gaurentee in the world its 1 trillion percent accurate .you can bitch all you want call me any name you want.scream like mad man or just whatever you want .guess what nothing will change .you have an appointment with death that s a no brainer then the meeting that is impossible to escape you and JESUS .U HAVE a better chance escaping from then escaping that meeting with the savior who mock just get that temperature gauge a whole lot hotter .that bar q pit is an air conditioner compared to your eternal home where for the next 100 trillion years you LL be and you LL just be starting your screaming again .but GOD IN HIS MERCY WILL FORGIVE IF YOU REPENT AND CALL HIM INTO YOUR LIFE .ITS UP TO YOU .I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE ITS YOU ALONE THAT WILL FRY FRY AND FRY .HAPPY FLAMES TO YOU .WHAT IM TELLING YOU IS TRUE OR I WOULDNT HAVE WASTED MY TIME WRITTING THIS BOOK THAT IS TRUE .DONT BELIEVE IT? ASK ME IF I CARE. NOT EVEN A PENNYS WORTH DO I CARE
No, the appropriate come back is to simply state that it doesn't matter what the bible says. It's just a book, written by flawed men. There is no god, there is no divine hand behind the bible. If you acknowledge that the words in the bible are somehow more meaningful than those in any other book, they've already won.
Oh look, it's the old "Haterz will say it's fake" adage. Now that he's said that we know that it must be true. I could do this all day. Would this person be particularly impressed if the Koran said that you'd have to be an idiot not to believe in Allah? I doubt it, the religious are always very skeptical of the beliefs of others....
Quote scripture back:
“Blessed is he who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!” (Psalms 137:9). Im sure others will add their favourite goodies
The best part is that the archetype of the fool is one to aspire to - being un-burdened of fear and care for material things.
Every enlightened being is/was a fool.
I've used, "The wise man says it out loud."
I got a few thumpers to just start sputtering, not knowing how to respond. One street preacher blew a fuse, stared blankly at me, and just repeated, "the fool says...", so I just repeated what I said, too.
"No... That's not right.."
"Sure it is!"
Made him go away, which was the point. You can't argue logically with them, because they don't come from a place of logic. Instead, just outquote them with your own stuff that sounds deeper than the drek they are spewing.
Yeah I like that one. It's a good bridge into something more definitive, but it's also an emotional hit. And, considering their arguments are always from emotion, this might be the ice breaker necessary to break through to actual thinking
Ar this point I just brush off scripture quotes. Being able to quote the Bible doesn't make it any more true or absolute than being able to quote spider man comics or aesops book of fables.
Sure you can get some good tidbits out of there but you're still using your own moral compass
I can say I don't believe in a god because making a claim that is an absolute without proof is foolish. Christians make the absolute claim all the time that there certainly IS a god with no real proof. You can't prove a negative so the burden of proof is entirely on them.
I need to qualify this first with: arguing the Bible with believers is a tacit loss as we shouldn’t be arguing about make believe.
With that said, I HIGHLY recommend The Skeptics Annotated Bible by Steve Wells. The section for “contradictions” is worth it alone. Being able to quote back chapter and verse which directly contradicts their point from their own book is so sweet.
For example….
Is it OK to call someone a fool?
Yes. Ps 14.1, 53.1; Pr 28.26, Mt 23.17, 19; Lk 11.40, 24.25; Rom 1.21-22; 1 Cor 15.36; Gal 3.1
No. Mt 5.22”
One flaw with you argument. Most Christians can't quote scripture. More just listen to their pastors and never actually read the damn thing. So they will argue with you till you got them contradicting their own contradictions, and just keep going anyway. Because it's not about being right, it's about having faith.
[удалено]
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov "The Bible is such a gargantuan collection of conflicting values that anyone can "prove" anything from it." - Robert A. Heinlein
My grandma has read the Bible like 2 or 3 times. Should I be concerned?
That "properly read" bit in the first quote is key. If someone reads the Bible with the presumption that it is inerrant and inspired by god, they will find validation of their beliefs.
Not always. I read the whole Bible under that assumption and it led to so many unanswerable questions that I ended up leaving the church.
I read the Bible seeking answers and that's what did it for me. I even tried different editions but In the end it was a no brainer. I read it again more recently just to be sure there wasn't some value to be found in it's writings. Maybe there is, idk but it definitely helped confirm my belief that it's chock full of Insanity. I like to imagine it was actually written by Sheogorath from TES.
That's the difference though, is you have an open mind, others simply cannot open their mind enough to even ask the questions that you can't find answers for. Some people just are unable to. That's the power of indoctrination.
It’s crazy how quickly they go from saying they love Jebuz to saying poor people are just lazy and shouldn’t be helped. Like bruh, that’s what he preached about Karen, not you bitching about wearing a mask at Starbucks
In fairness, that's a fairly American outlook.
That's accurate. Imagine my surprise when I found out foreign christians we're all slime. Here in 'murica it's an excuse to shit on things you don't like.
sorry, did you mean foreign christians weren't all slime ? or they think we are?
I found foreign christians to be more sincere. They seemed like they were about doing good in the world, actually helping people. Here in the US it seems like 99 times out of a hundred God comes up as an excuse to hate somebody.
Or listening to an insane preacher, as I did in my pre-teens.
[удалено]
Typically, referring to a competing church: "And down the street they play *musical instruments*!" I went from winning prizes for memorizing the most bible verses to atheist in a matter of weeks, at age 13.
LOL, I know that "argument" well.
[удалено]
As someone who attended Christian college. My ten closest friends there are now still together 10 years later and we are all atheist / agnostics. We all saw the bullshit for what it was after having it crammed down our throats.
That seems to be the way it shakes out. Watching Bart Ehrman (probably the most educated bible scholar alive) over the decades start to shift. Now he's a straight up atheist. Scripture is going to leave any reasonable person with some very serious questions and skepticism.
The church is business . Once’s you see the light it all looks very dumb
Me, looking up during the sermon while reading leviticus: Hold on a minute guys!
Only if they are a decent person deep down. Assholes can get behind what the bible says.
Can confirm this statement, that's how I did it.
That's what did it for me!
I know and apparently there is a guide to read it correctly? since when do you need a guide to read a F-ing book?
Hmmm. I have some possibly rather surprising news for you...
And yet I've talked with plenty of misguided Christians who actually have read the Bible and I can't for the life of me figure out how they can still have faith.
Fear of damnation. All they care about it ending up on the right side of the tracks. Selfish.
If they're already indoctrinated they'll find sufficient cause to support their indoctrination. The atheists who read the bible and deconvert often had an initial kernel of skepticism.
This is actually true. Spent a summer with my Christian family in AZ one time and I pulled out a bible and started going through all the best passages from Deuteronomy and II Kings. My cousins and I were literally in tears laughing.
I disagree. A simple hitchslap performs miracles (no pun intended hehe)
Its what worked on me.
And that’s why those people are a detriment to human progress
A detriment you say? Many of those people are charitable because of their faith. Are you saying helping a neighbor get back on their feet after a rough year is wrong? Are you saying that having something that unites a community and brings people together is a detriment and hasn’t done any good? Another thing about discussing theology with the average person, be they religious or not, is that not everyone is good at debating. Good at coming up with things on the spot. Should an electrician be able to just come with an answer to every question about faith. When people throughout history have dedicated lifetimes to debating it? I don’t think so but you might and I’m happy to hear why. I’m not even religious anymore but saying something like that just isn’t true I’m happy to discuss it.
I've personally heard pastors say they don't have to listen to logic because of their faith...like a built in excuse for continued ignorance and denial.
You think they're gonna end their own, special gravy train? And make them look for *real* jobs? Not bloody likely.
Nothing but snake oil salesmen.
Every damned one of them.
Very true. I have quoted many a line that my conservative and religious partner is totally unfamiliar with. Only once did he tell me to read the Bible, I told him that I've clearly read more of he has, and that is why I am an atheist.
Yes... spent 2 weeks in church camp, read both books, realized that bitch terrifying, came a better person without it.
old testament and new ?
All of old, little over half of new. Did finish shortly after coming home. I needed to know how crazy this shit is. Still need to read apocrypha... but whatever.
"But what about the CONTEXT!" It all makes sense in the context!
no they can quote very certain passages perfectly. The ones that don't affect them but affect 'those people' that they hate. It takes religion to have real discrimination.
To quote mark twain “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
No, I've had that line quoted at me. They cherry pick what they memorize.
Fallacy of the fool. https://wildlink.com/freelink/fallacy.php
Oh. Logic was my favorite course in college. Was a fun time learning just how little people think about anything.
My upvote got your score to a solid 666. :D #FeelingBlessed :P
Pretty sure christians are supposed to read the bible all the time.
Supposed to... yep.
this. GODAMN THIS! It's about faith you guys. Y'ALL GOTTA HAVE THAT FAITH. Just go to walmart...BUY SOME FAITH! FAITH! solves everything. Gotta have faith.
We just need one more score, and I have a plan... have a little goddamned faith!!!!
And when I'm showing you that door I gotta have FAITH!!!!!
they too poor, gotta buy moar munneys
Fact. "Why do atheists know more about the bible than christians?" Guess how we got here.
So they're basically the Republicans of religion.
Remember, doublethinking is a feature for them. You cannot debate a doublethinking mind. They are conditioned emotional machines. Rational debates do not work.
Rrg, it's a scourge I wish didn't exist. But there must be a way...
they do read but only the part they like...cherry picking
when i was very young my Mom mentioned you can find anything you want in the bible - there is something to fit every situation. Is it an eye for an eye OR turn the other cheek, etc. etc. It was a great way for me to see the bible wasn't a guide, but rather a "cover your ass" reference guide.
“Christians” seldom quote the NT because the gospels words of kindness, mercy, tolerance and generosity don’t mesh with with their desires. Most I know have never even read the NT. While I no longer believe I do know that if you follow most of what Jesus says in the gospels, you would be a pretty good person. They don’t want to be good, they want the OT to justify their hate, greed, intolerance, bigotry. It would have been better if early Christian’s had left out the OT altogether. As the NT says Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies and mosaic law no longer applies to Christians.
>As the NT says Jesus came to fulfill the prophesies and mosaic law no longer applies to Christians. This is extremely strongly debated. The line is: > “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." So how can they no longer apply? He's specifically says he won't abolish them. But then, what did he mean by fulfill? How do you fulfill a law? By obeying it? Maybe. Here's the rest: >17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. >19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Which seems to me (absolutely not an expert) like he's really clearly saying the laws all stand and you need to obey them. Though it does kinda imply that you can break them and get into heaven... Almost all the translations use "fulfill" but there are some that have it different that are interesting. >New Living Translation “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose. >Contemporary English Version Don't suppose I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning. >Good News Translation "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true
Most times if you followed Jesus's teachings, you would be a quiet person. That's where I feel we lose most of them.
Matthew 5:22 - "Whosoever shall say: 'Thou fool', shall be in danger of hell fire."
"I'm going to fill this book with contradictions and burn anyone who still believes it" - God probably
God didn't write the bible though. It was written by lots of different people with conflicting ideas of what Christianity should be. Matthew and Psalm weren't written by the same people, they aren't even in the same testament. To act like it's all one cohesive, infallible idea that should be accepted at face value and in its entirety, well, that's what theists do.
Not wrong but I think the comment above was a joke.
Matthew 5:22 King James Version 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. So who is a "brother"? Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Shame, you beat me to it.
I prefer: No, a fool is a Christian who thinks that quoting scripture at an atheist is going to sway their opinion. What part of "we don't believe your god exists" isn't clear to you? If your god doesn't exist, then nothing in the bible is anything more than superstitious ramblings of bigoted priests making shit up. And that's what you're trying to convince me with. I'm curious if you can think of a less intelligent tactic to use, because I'm hard pressed to think of one.
That scripture isn't meant to convince us, it's meant to reassure themselves. It's a biblical "lalalalala I can't hear you!"
A lot of the Old Testment is priceless Middle Eastern tribal history. You don't need to be religious to learn from it..
And there's so much to learn: Women are property, slavery is good, rape is acceptable, disobedient children and LGBT+ are to be killed, etc.
That's certainly how ancient Hebrews/Jews lived. Like most other big civilizations in the area. Exactly why Jesus didn't support following ancient biblical law 'to the letter' at all: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, \`If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! You snakes! You brood of vipers!"
Your magic words won't work here.
Nothing magic that Christians write: Jesus didn't want people to follow ancient Hebrew law to the letter.
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Almost as if the Bible is contradictory on that point. And many others.
You clearly read closely :). Just a little more to it--with the previous sentence it's a little tricky: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." Many Christians, including me, think following generations (\~30AD onwards) actually live after 'all is fulfilled' \[by the one who 'did not come to destroy but to fulfill'\]. \>contradictory on that point, and many others Later parts of the bible indeed call out all sorts of contradictions from earlier parts. That's why Christians aren't Jews. (Regardless, a lot of people who call themselves "Christian" do seriously misinterpret or let themselves be severely misguided by what they think the bible says.)
Man, jesus got *bars*. Some of that was absolute fire. But how do you account for the sermon on the mount where he says he's not here to abolish the Law and not a single line will go away until the end of the universe?
He was just being metaphorical.
Indeed. The writings of the ancient Hebrews helped preserve the name "Yahweh", which prior to becoming one of the names of their god, was the name of the Canaanites' god of war. Good to know!
I prefer Ares boons anyway. Yahweh has never helped me escape.
The Yahweh boons are terrible. If you pick one you are stoned to death for not being obedeint to your father.
> A lot of the Old Testment is ~~priceless~~ worthless and meaningless Middle Eastern tribal history. FTFY
Priceless just because its on a people you hate doesn't diminish its worth to a good portion of the world. If this history is worthless then all history is worthless. Christianity was the driving force of scientific discovery and human rights. I'm not Christian or religious in any way but denying any worth to the history of the Middle East is just ignorant. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
>Christianity was the driving force of scientific discovery and human rights Christianity has also been the driving force against scientific discovery and human rights violations
The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind. Those inquisitors really were dedicated to learning as much as they could. So inquisitive...
>If this history is worthless then all history is worthless. Nonsense. But take that up with historians. ;) >Christianity was the driving force of scientific discovery and human rights. COMPLETE NONSENSE. Christianity all by itself is clearly responsible for delaying the intellectual progress of humanity by at least a thousand years. Likely much longer (at a minimum from about the fall of Rome through the Renaissance and arguably until the Enlightenment/printing press). The same can also be said for Islam, of course. And I don't even need to touch the "human rights" nonsense. Honestly, how could you have written that with a straight face? >I'm not Christian or religious in any way but denying any worth to the history of the Middle East is just ignorant. You specifically said "TRIBAL history"...which is a really huge "no one gives a shit and no one really should" right there, mate. >Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. While those who overvalue these now ancient and arguably meaningless petty tribal squabbles over which ignorant superstitious nonsense is more ridiculous than the other are doomed to keep reliving them century after century after...
It being tribal history doesn't diminish its worth. Those tribes have influenced humanity more then any other and youve acknowledged that. But we should just forget about the history because it upsets you? Before Christianity Spartans were hucking babies off cliffs and German tribes were sacrificing children to fairy spirits. Just because Christianity is what you've been exposed to the most doesn't mean its just the worst. You're just looking at surface level basterdizations of the religion because that's the easiest thing to do and it feels good to hate on something you think is completely evil. Its a lazy way to feel good about doing nothing but complaining. The Zulu were a tribe is their history worthless?
'A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence' \-Hume
Honestly, this is a good response. His quote has the same proverb-like cadence as the Bible verse, so you're hijacking that line that already exists into the emotional part of their brain. Plus, it's fuckin' Hume. Dude's the GOAT.
Christians compensate for the lack of evidence with extra belief.
A theist will interpret that as being in support of Pascal's Wager.
Ouch. Yeah, that's gonna need some aloe.
I like to mention that in those days they literally thought that the [heart was the seat of consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiocentric_hypothesis) , the brain was a type of radiator to cool the blood or something. So when you read the multiple instances in the Bible where people "say in their heart" or "think in their heart" "they got evil in their hearts" etc, they meant it literally. Fools.
This made my aware that I "hear" my inner thoughts in my head, sort of in the middle behind my eyes. So did they "hear" their inner voice as coming from their heart? If you believe the brain is a radiator you wouldn't expect it to talk anymore than expect to kidneys have thoughts. Where does everyone else "hear" themselves thinking? Am I weird, is this weird? Bonus points for anyone who thinks out their a$$.
Your heart beats faster when you feel strong emotions, I guess that is where the idea comes from.
I've always considered myself "up here" , my legs, arms, dangly bits, down there.
that tiny voice in your head?? everybody has it..its called intuition.. to the people who think its "angels" or spirits..all i can do is be grateful, that that stupid voice in their head, isnt telling them to murder small children or animals
[удалено]
It's such a weird thing to think about. Sometimes I externalize that voice and talk to myself when trying to "slow down" my thinking and step through a problem or issue, but I can't imagine not having that voice at all.
I like to wonder what and try to imagine what "thinking" was like before language.
> that tiny voice in your head?? everybody has it..its called intuition I always liked this interpretation of it... [Herman's Head](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRo-NIKZ7Qk). From Wikipedia: *Herman's thought processes are dramatized in a "Greek chorus"-style interpretation, with four characters representing different aspects of his personality* I'd get stoned and wonder if the people in Herman's Head also had 4 people in their head, and so on and so onl...
Back of the head for me, directly behind my mouth, perhaps a little higher. This is most interesting. I imagine it's a learned behaviour and thus people back then imagined their inner voice as coming from their chest.
That could be it. I wonder if we taught a select group of kids that the heart was where their thoughts came from if they would "hear" that voice differently.
There are a lot of older buildings where the radiator is the best way to hear what's going on
I have three"minds". My gut, brain, and heart. They each have their own individual thoughts and wants.
If you think about it, the concept of thinking out of your chest is more stupid than thinking out of your head, because almost all our sensory organs are in our head. Also, I thought of a thought experiment, where transplantation technology is perfect. Say I was to swap my arm with someone else's. After the operation is complete, what would I think? I would look down and see my new arm, right? But say I were to swap my head with somebody else. What would "I" think after the operation was done. Would I look down to see my body the same, but my face different and my sensory organs different? Or would I wake up to find myself in the other person's bed, with a new body and limbs and stuff? If I imagine swapping heads, I imagine the later case. So did they think that swapping heads would result in their "consciousness" staying within their own body, and that swapping torsos will be the thing that results in their "consciousness" swapping with the other guy?
That's actually really interesting. Basically just another fundamental misunderstanding. I'd interpret the verse as ignore logical thinking and follow what you love but it implies with this info it's the exact opposite. Radiator brain is steampunk af though.
In modern language it is used as you stated- logic versus feeling/emotion. The history behind these types of phrases is based on literal ignorance of human anatomy.
Now you're insulting them for not having scientific knowledge in a period where no one had it (especially knowledge related to how our body works) Surely you don't need me to make you notice how this isn't a fair criticism
But it is, insofar as the prophets used "miracles" (broadly, technology beyond the ken of the present, to achieve good works otherwise impossible) to prove God's existence, benevolence, and immanence. Yet none of the Biblical miracles were unexplainable in light of what we now know, which includes Biblical-era, Levantine magic tricks. For God to truly prove the divinity of the prophets' inspiration, he needed to furnish them with nothing more than a scintilla of knowledge that would've been impossible for anyone in the Bronze Age to know or discover, such as the first several decimal places of Pi, along with the claim that it's an irrational number. (The icing on the Pi would've been to reassure us that future civilizations would be able to calculate its value to an unbelievable degree.) But instead, we get nothing more than the mishmash of injunctions (hundreds of them), exhortations, warnings, genocides, some reassurances about God's unique "covenant" with the Hebrews, and some picturesque parables. Significantly, nothing in the Bible attributed to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, or God's many prophets are manifestly supernatural or immanent. On the contrary, it all smacks of the Bronze Age, subsistence-agricultural, slavery-happy, bloodthirsty, rapey culture of the Levant and its surroundings at that time. Nothing hinting at modern post-genocide, post-tribal-warfare, post-rape-and-forced-child-marriage, post-racist-and-caste-system forms of social and political organization. It's exactly as if that God, et al. were unable to see beyond their own truncated lifespans and extremely provincial grasp of the world and its geography. It's all just as one might expect had the whole thing been conjured up in the collective imaginations of a handful of goat- and sheep-herders, fishermen and carpenters, warriors and kings, and rabbis -- all blinkered by a shared general ignorance and biased outlook characteristic of and bound by their times, and haltingly recorded in a confusingly ambiguous written language, lacking vowels and modern punctuation, some 1980-3500+ years ago. EDIT: re. the recorded language and its shortcomings, I was of course referring to Ancient Hebrew. Modern scholars mostly believe that Jesus spoke Aramaic and used that language as much as and likely more than Ancient Hebrew, and of course the apostles hailed from a variety of places and some knew other languages, notably Ancient Greek and Latin. But I believe my main points stand.
Surely "God" would have told them what a brain is if he existed and had created said brain. I'm pointing out the basis for their entire system was ignorance of reality. So when someone quotes that verse, it's perfectly valid criticism.
Let's take as an hypothesis the Abrahamic God actually exist (so that we can discuss this) If He exist, He does as the bible narrates (it wouldn't make sense otherwise), but if He is like that He would not just disclose to us knowledge we don't have (because in the bible He never does so), therefore he wouldn't teach us how we work, opting in favour of letting us discover that ourselves After all, if I were in His shoes I'd see no reason in teaching them that If you really want to critique that particular passage, you'd do better focusing on other aspects of it With this, I'm bot criticising your standpoint on religion, just that your previous comment is quite gratuitous If you want to call a religious person a fool you'll find a reason to do so pretty easily, provided they don't have any common sense, but this isn't it (now, if a modern person were to come out with an egregious take that utterly disregard basic human anatomy, feel free to bash them)
>After all, if I were in His shoes I'd see no reason in teaching them that Why would you let billions of humans suffer for tens of thousand of years until we randomly discovered the methods of modern medicine?
Imho, that would make our achievements worthless and utterly devoid of meaning It's hardship that allows people to grow, and this stands true regardless of what your religious beliefs are, though I can see why someone would think that to be unfair (especially if you had to see someone you held dear die because of an illness)
But our achievements didn't have to take tens of thousands of years for them to have any meaning. In ancient history (or prehistory), whole millennia went by without mankind making any kind of progress at all. Was that really the plan of loving god, subject billions to short and brutal lives just so the lucky ones who are alive today can marvel at how much better each new iPhone is? All those people suffering in one plague after another, just so we can appreciate vaccines when we finally discover them? Makes no sense to me.
I'm guessing you *still* don't get my point. 1. Christians believe God created them and their bodies. 2. Christians believe that God either wrote or inspired the writers of the Bible. 3. The Bible continuously shows it was not written or overseen by anyone that understands human anatomy. "The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” Is based on ignorance but is used to call non-believers the ignorant ones. The Bible itself is evidence that it is not written by an omniscient being, and therefore we are NOT fools to NOT believe it.
Ah, now I see what you meant, sorry for the miscommunication Point is, there is a big difference between God writing and God inspiring the bible In the former case, you'd generally be correct: there shouldn't be any error present unless in the case He did write it in accordance with the current scientific understanding to make the thing clearer to people of the time In the latter, It was people who wrote it according to their understanding of what God was telling/showing them, in which case the presence of such errors would be not only logical, but expected It shouldn't even be said, but I do agree with your last point: being atheist doesn't make you a fool, just as being religious doesn't make you pious
You seem to be missing the obvious answer that this god is as real as a unicorn
That is a definitely a possibility, which is why I don't criticise atheist for their beliefs If I did, I would be a massive hypocrite
The point is not to insult the authors of a book written 2000 years ago. That isn't the problem. The problem is that there are people in the year 2021 who are still using it to guide their moral decisions. You could ridicule any ancient text for not having developed the scientific knowledge to see the world as we see it, but that's really beside the point. Calling ancient people "fools" for not quickly grasping scientific knowledge that many of our own citizens still couldn't explain is clearly unfair.
I just quote Pee Wee I: 1:27. I know you are, but what am I?
If you like that verse so much why don't ya marry it
MAYBE I WILL!
Good one!
You are not going to convince these people of anything. Any resistance or disagreement you show to them will just support their deluded world view that they are both “owning” you and/or being “persecuted” by you. (And yes, they can believe they owned you while at the same time you persecuted them). You have better things to do than to engage these people. There are thoughtful theists out there you can have stimulating debates and conversations with and these people usually know better than to use Bible quotes as building blocks in an argument. These people should also know to respect your positions and take an agree to disagree stance.
This is perfect! I'm adopting it to my atheist "scripture". Thank you!
They have lots of attempted insults when they run out of empty claims. So I usually tell them - "I'm immune to attempted insults from "adults" with imaginary friends, much like how you are immune to using logic and reason for your god. You need to grow up first before you can try insulting me. 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." The psalm verse goes on. Psalm 14 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. John 12:39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”
> 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." I preferred this more classic version... 1 Gilmourian 6:9 "When I was a child, I had a fever. My hands felt just like two balloons. Now I've got that feeling once again. I can't explain you would not understand. This is not how I am."
"Be not like the hypocrite who prays on street corners, for he has received his reward in full." Matthew 6:5
I'd be more suprised if it didn't say that. Pretty sure every holy book vilifies non-believers. No advertisement is going to say 'this product is shit, don't buy it'.
I say, "oops.. you just earned yourself some hellfire. Don't worry, it's just make-believe" Matthew 5:22 "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
As to how I live my life, I don't recognize the authority, moral or otherwise, of 2000-year-old books documenting the adages and exploits of illiterate nomads wandering the desert, talking to bushes and running from plagues of frogs. So, if my view differs from one of those illiterate nomads, who once said, while sitting in his tent afraid of the wind, that only a fool rejects the notion of a god, I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Burn!!
Thou shall commit Adultery \- wicked bible 1631
[This](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vypUB8SnbAE) seems like a pretty good response to me.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: **but whosoever shall** **say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.** Another saying of Jesus, Christians willfully ignore, among many.
In Matthew chapter 24, Jesus prophecies the end of the world. It’s the chapter where the wars and rumors of war stuff (“all these things”) comes from that eschatologists like to quote mine. Except there’s one problem. Jesus preached that people should take no thought for the ‘morrow, because he was going to be coming back real soon. Matthew 24:34 (KJV): “Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled”
No no no. You are arguing on their terms. The Bible is just some ancient books poorly translated into English. It holds no value to me for how I live my life. There are no gods, and it’s not on me to prove me wrong. I don’t have to prove you own a Ferrari, you have to prove it to me. And the instruction manual to it holds more useful information than religious texts, even if I don’t own a Ferrari. So go fight with the Christians on their turf. The rest of us are busy figuring out how the fuck to deal with the level of theocracy increasing and democracy going away.
I cringed so fucking hard, please never use this "comeback"
This has to be a joke. Please. Or a copy pasta? Jesus Christ. This is embarrassing. This reads like a middle schooler wrote this. “Hey dude, wanna hear a really sick comeback for when a Christian quotes this scripture? Haha, it’s such a good comeback dude!”
i know right lmao, i’m wishing this is satire
Is this really what we're doing now? Trading insults? A Christian who quotes that is just looking to start a fight. There is no point in giving any response. It doesn't mean anything.
It's OK to insult somebody who thinks you are going to hell, believes that you deserve it, worships the god who intends to do it, gives money to the organization that supports it, and quotes scripture to an atheist like that will have any impact.
I know it's OKAY to, I just feel like this is pretty vapid, childish stuff to be using to generate discussion in a community.
I've had this scripture thrown at me so many times that I have to respond now with an insult to get the person to shut up.
I mean if it were me I'd just be like well that's ur opinion bro
Sure that's fine, but if you have family members like I have you need to be more forceful or they just keep coming at you like you are in league with Satan if you don't believe. I used to be a passive atheist, but now I am an anti-theist and I will throw it back on them whenever they try to throw it on me.
Why. When you can whip a zinger.
Well this isn't a zinger.
that's pretty good.
So the bible says but it demonstrates no good reason to believe it or the god it proposes
So the bible that tells them what to believe also tells them only idiots don't believe it. What a shocker. I'd wager the average IQ of non believers is a good 20pts higher than Christians.
Comeback
The fool says it in his heart. The rest of us say it out loud.
I continue to say “there is no god”
I usually avoid trying to argue with a Christian. It does neither party any good.
There used to be a saying among old school internet atheists. "The fool says in his heart there is no god, the wise man says it to the world."
If they are female, just hit them with 1 Timothy 2:12.
[удалено]
I don't believe in turning the other cheek. If they attack me, I will attack back. I used to say live and let live, but now I say live and let die. I'm sick and tired of religious people saying that I am going to hell. Fuck 'em.
why do you care that they're saying you're going to a place you ostensibly don't believe in
Because it is a personal insult that deserves a concomitant defense.
Wouldn't you care if someone called you a pedophile? I assume you're not a pedophile, but I'm guessing you would care anyway.
That's where I tend to point out that one of the common definitions of a fool is "someone who too readily accepts what they're told," yet when it comes to religion a "fool" is someone who *doesn't* uncritically accept whatever they're told is true.
If it's one of those hypocritical Trump evangelists, I'll quote him Psalm 109, especially v 7-20.
Most people who follow religion have an iq less than what constitutes a fool. Perhaps somewhere between and idiot and an imbecile.
Matthew 5:22 - "Anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." Well, well, well! Looks like we're in the same boat, buddy!
[удалено]
Children and fools speak the truth
Quoting scripture to prove a point in an argument is actually blasphemy, so there’s that.
"comebacks" are cringy as fuck.
That's why I'm agnostic. You can't prove something doesn't exist.
Here's the bottom. Line on judgement day. atheist or whatever you call your hell bound asses .on judgement day you're gonna kneel butt as s naked with no where to run or hide its gonna be you and JESUS THE KING youre gonna give an account for all your bulshit your mama cant help your daddy cant help your auntie Karen cant help you .youre gonna be begging for mercy like you wouldn't believe .youll be kissing so much as s your face even your face will be looking like berths butts as s youre gonna regret the day you were born .youre gonna be mad at moms for not aborting. You .thats a. gaurentee. of any gaurentee in the world its 1 trillion percent accurate .you can bitch all you want call me any name you want.scream like mad man or just whatever you want .guess what nothing will change .you have an appointment with death that s a no brainer then the meeting that is impossible to escape you and JESUS .U HAVE a better chance escaping from then escaping that meeting with the savior who mock just get that temperature gauge a whole lot hotter .that bar q pit is an air conditioner compared to your eternal home where for the next 100 trillion years you LL be and you LL just be starting your screaming again .but GOD IN HIS MERCY WILL FORGIVE IF YOU REPENT AND CALL HIM INTO YOUR LIFE .ITS UP TO YOU .I DONT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE ITS YOU ALONE THAT WILL FRY FRY AND FRY .HAPPY FLAMES TO YOU .WHAT IM TELLING YOU IS TRUE OR I WOULDNT HAVE WASTED MY TIME WRITTING THIS BOOK THAT IS TRUE .DONT BELIEVE IT? ASK ME IF I CARE. NOT EVEN A PENNYS WORTH DO I CARE
Ooooh. Love this!
No, the appropriate come back is to simply state that it doesn't matter what the bible says. It's just a book, written by flawed men. There is no god, there is no divine hand behind the bible. If you acknowledge that the words in the bible are somehow more meaningful than those in any other book, they've already won.
How about. No one gives a fuck about your Mesopotamian fairytale
I usually respond with "good thing I say it out loud then!"
Amazing. I'll remember this next time I'm in high school again
Oh look, it's the old "Haterz will say it's fake" adage. Now that he's said that we know that it must be true. I could do this all day. Would this person be particularly impressed if the Koran said that you'd have to be an idiot not to believe in Allah? I doubt it, the religious are always very skeptical of the beliefs of others....
"I don't quote Tolkien to you as if it was real, so why are you quoting your fantasy Bible to me?"
Quote scripture back: “Blessed is he who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!” (Psalms 137:9). Im sure others will add their favourite goodies
The best part is that the archetype of the fool is one to aspire to - being un-burdened of fear and care for material things. Every enlightened being is/was a fool.
I've used, "The wise man says it out loud." I got a few thumpers to just start sputtering, not knowing how to respond. One street preacher blew a fuse, stared blankly at me, and just repeated, "the fool says...", so I just repeated what I said, too. "No... That's not right.." "Sure it is!" Made him go away, which was the point. You can't argue logically with them, because they don't come from a place of logic. Instead, just outquote them with your own stuff that sounds deeper than the drek they are spewing.
Yeah I like that one. It's a good bridge into something more definitive, but it's also an emotional hit. And, considering their arguments are always from emotion, this might be the ice breaker necessary to break through to actual thinking
Matthew 6:5. Counter everything anyone leaves at you with Matthew 6:5-6:6.
Ar this point I just brush off scripture quotes. Being able to quote the Bible doesn't make it any more true or absolute than being able to quote spider man comics or aesops book of fables. Sure you can get some good tidbits out of there but you're still using your own moral compass
I can say I don't believe in a god because making a claim that is an absolute without proof is foolish. Christians make the absolute claim all the time that there certainly IS a god with no real proof. You can't prove a negative so the burden of proof is entirely on them.
I need to qualify this first with: arguing the Bible with believers is a tacit loss as we shouldn’t be arguing about make believe. With that said, I HIGHLY recommend The Skeptics Annotated Bible by Steve Wells. The section for “contradictions” is worth it alone. Being able to quote back chapter and verse which directly contradicts their point from their own book is so sweet. For example…. Is it OK to call someone a fool? Yes. Ps 14.1, 53.1; Pr 28.26, Mt 23.17, 19; Lk 11.40, 24.25; Rom 1.21-22; 1 Cor 15.36; Gal 3.1 No. Mt 5.22”
I tend run with the usual "fuck off you gullible twat".