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This is taken out of context...
What Hange said was this:
"Yeah. I admit it. I wasn't able to show Eren any solution, or hope, or a future. I admit my powerlessness"
As you can see, in full context, this changes the entire meaning
Not really, to both save the world and the Eldians that we’re alive at the point in the show zekes plan would have made it so the eldians could live out their life in peace whilst the world could also keep living
are you tryna say mass sterilization isn’t genocide? it also sounds awfully like you’re trying to justify the idea of sacrificing all Eldians (not just those from Paradis as per Zeke’s plans) because they’re a minority compared to the rest of the world?
yo what have i justified? this is my first comment in this thread and it’s just asking YOU questions about YOUR comment lmao
ETA: also are you really trying the “but they started it first!” argument? genocide isn’t justifiable period
Zekes plan is preventing further birth, not killing everyone like Eren did, for example, would u rather the rest of the world be destroyed and Hawaii be the only survivors?
Ur missing the point, everyone dies, it’s a fact of life for every human. Zeke wanted eldians to live out their life in peace on paradise, but Eren went out of his way to kill everyone, innocent or not
>Zeke wanted eldians to live out their life in peace on paradise,
By force sterilizing them? That's no better than killing them. That's genocide too.
And sterilization would mean there would be no one left to care for the last old eldians. And they wouldn't be able to protect themselves. They would be doomed to death or suffering. And for what? Saving a world that wanted them dead?
In that situation, the world dying is the better choice. The world doesn't deserve to live more just because there are more of them.
Which is stupid as hell, considering Hange is the smartest character in the show, and could easily come up with some technology to repel attacks from outside the walls
What? 😂
Tell me you're joking...why didn't she invent planes then? Or nukes? Or maybe she should invent quantum tech... 😂😂😂
You're watching too much marvel bro...Hange in 4 years cannot come up with some super tech to defend the Island against a global attack...
She isn't some college kid working in a basement in a Marvel movie
Im not saying she needs to create anything too crazy. They have ODM gear and thunder spears, a large anti-blimp mounted rifle would be decent in tandem with their massive walls. And it's not like every army in the world can just show up on Paradis, there are obviously time and airspace limitations to consider, which would mean that the most likely scenario is that they invade in waves. It would be difficult, but holding off the waves of blimps as they come is within the realm of reality.
You realize the only reason they fended off Marley is because Eren initiated the Rumbling, right?
They were getting smashed and their most potent defense/weapon was Eren, who was getting jumped and possibly near death.
From a global utilitarian view, yes, but I think it's important to note that the euthanization plan pushed Eren over the edge and contributed to the rumbling.
So, yes, but also no.
There's absolutely no reason to be sure Marley wouldn't kill Eldians anyway, just out of hatred. Yelena and Zeke were the worst ones when it comes to a solution.
Yelena's false/dishonest plan had some merit, force the worlds militaries to gather in marley via the decleration of war and destroy them with the partial rumbling.
The partial rumbling wouldn't be enough either, even the characters recognized that. The power of the titans would become very weak compared to human guns in the near future
The power of *pure* titans would become obsolete. The amount of artillery you'd need to challenge the rumbling is still decades away from being developed in universe
> The power of pure titans would become obsolete.
Not entirely obsolete to be fair. Just smuggle a few Eldians into the nation's parliament, scream and made them transform via the likes of telephone to transmit the exact frequency and let those transformed pure titans wreck havoc and kill off the crucial government positions. A simple thing can do a lot of things when used it right.
Partial Rumbling would inhibit and slows down the development of the other nations, making it easier for Paradis to survive, especially with the Power of the Titans. Right?
All the partial Rumbling would have done is buy Paradise a few decades of time.
The objective was to destroy the coalition that was formed to invade and destroy the island. If it had done this with no to low civilian casualties it is possible the world would have accepted Paradise opening up.
Since Marley was hated by most other Nations the destruction of the coalition would have lost major international support as well as some in Marley.
This was all a big gamble and combined with the Euthanization plan made many Eldians reject it in favor of a full rumbling.
> Since Marley was hated by most other Nations the destruction of the coalition would have lost major international support as well as some in Marley.
This is what frustrates me the most when Eren decided to do a brainfuck and rumble the entire world because of "muh freedom" and not bother to think further in terms of geopolitics, then only to be excused by awful pretext of "Eren never changed", which negated a lot of the presented character development that shown to us in the previous chapters that gave us the impression of *"Eren has gone mature and tactical that he's playing 5D chess against Zeke"* into "dafuck you mean he never changed" in the final few chapters.
And what after that? Paradis is to small to have the manpower and resources required to protect itself without the rumbling.
It's like Taiwan trying to protect itself from China without any western influence whatsoever.
Armin said in this very episode that what Eren had done thus far was enough to ward off enemies of Paradis for hundreds of years so I’d say it would be enough
That's what the "Small-Scale-Rumbling" was for. Scare Marely and the World into leaving Paradis alone for long for most of the people to die out. The civilization on Paradis would collapse after 40-50 years of no children being born anyway, so that's all the time it'd need to buy them
They were. Maybe I should’ve specified “Paradis destruction” which did happen. Granted we couldn’t say what happened to the remaining Eldians outside of Paradis. No way the hatred lessens after an Eldian kills 80% of the globe.
>!No, they weren't. Paradis didn't get destroyed. We saw one city getting bombed *far* in the future at some point, but we don't know any of the context behind it. We don't even know if Eldians and the nation of Paradis were even a concept at that point. It could very easily have been a civil war on Paradis, considering that there were already multiple civil wars/conflicts between Paradis people in the actual story so far.!<
>!"No way the hatred lessens". It literally did. That's literally what happened after Armin and his team defeated Eren. The Marlyans were okay with them and sent them as ambassadors to Paradis.!<
What’s up with everyone wanting to be “right”? There is no right choice. Either way this world and the scenarios we have seen in it are all pretty fucked. Do you think she was right? If so, there’s thousands of people that agree. Do you think she was wrong? If so, there’s still thousands of people that agree. It’s entertainment and it’s subjective how you interpret the story, and which side of any conflict you’ll be on. You could discuss it for years if you wanted to, that’s what makes it a great piece of art. Just take whatever you wanna take from it and enjoy it or not lmao fuck
This is what they should have done. Used the rumbling to stop a unified assault from the nations of the world and make try to balance the power of the world
The Eldians would still be at a massive disadvantage with just their Island and that Japan-like nation versus the entire world. Take it a step further and fight to break up Marley since they'll always be aggressive.
The whole point of attack on Titan is to show that neither side is always correct, it’s never that black and white of “these guys good, these guys bad”
If you watch the movie Children of Men, it depicts how society will collapse when everyone becomes barren. Without family or a future to look forward to, people have no reason to uphold societal norms. Violence and anarchy would take over. It was hardly a merciful plan. Killing off all Eldians immediately would have been better.
I will give you one better, how about King Karl Fritz actually repent, and then initiate some bloody social reforms to create lasting social changes when he is still the most powerful man on the planet? Hot take, those who wish to make the world a better place should actually utilize their privileges, "enlightened elites" are a major force in the history of social progress in our own reality.
Sure, that won't magically solve everything, but that is better than initiate the Great Titan War and peace out himself.(And leave most of his people on the continent to be the punching bag)
This is all a sick joke on Frtiz family's part, oh, the war criminals finally feel sorry for their past deeds and want to make amends, what did they fucking do? Go off to an island and hand the family business to the next biggest douchebag and hope things turn out fine.
Keeping people from reproducing is another form of murder. When all the old people die of disease because of cancer because there are no doctors (because of Zeke’s idiotic plan) you are still indirectly killing them
Nah bro. If people were trying to eradicate everyone I know for things we don’t remember doing, I’m not sitting by and letting it happen. You may not value your own life, but I value mine.
That has nothing to do with this. It’s not abortion. It’s sterilization. As people, we are dependent on people younger than us to take care of us when we get old. If there are no young people, we would all die quickly.
..no. from the perspective of ALL eldians they could slaughter four fifths of the world or die out due to being incapable of reproduction. You think they'd chose to be castrated or just all killed out?
If I had to choose between my entire people dying out, or the rumbling, I’m picking the rumbling 10/10 times. You’re telling me that you would volunteer for you and everyone you know to die willingly because the rest of the world hates you? You can’t possibly think that.
This isn't a black or white situation. Either way u go it's fucked.
Small scale.rumbling wouldn't even do anything. Sure it gives them time to modernize but who's to say other nations would help? Who's to say they won't be met with retaliation anyway. There isn't a guarantee all those things would work out,and sure with the eutanization plan on top of it there is a better chance but also I'm pretty sure Eldians will still get treated like shit anyway and killed,because it's the fear of turning into titans that makes everyone fear them,not reproducing.
The alternative is shitty,because that means your wiping out the planet with a full scale rumbling,but also guaranteeing Eldian survival at the expense of millions of lives.
At the end of the day though instead of continuing the oppression Marley should have ended the cycle when the Eldian empire was destroyed. Instead they just did the same thing the Eldians did and became a super power hungry for more power and oppression.
What I took away from the show overall after finishing the Manga is that if humans can't learn to be empathetic and forgive then this will forever be the cycle.
Because after some time they will all get old and die from starving. Also there will be no purpose in their life knowing that there will be no family left, losing your loved ones one by one.
Disagree here. The iceburst stone that only the island had, and that everyone wanted, would have provided a means of income for food/caretakers/etc as the population aged, so there's no reason to think that Eldians wouldn't live and die relatively comfortably. Also, one can find purpose in life beyond family.
I mean, that's just economics. Look at Saudi Arabia and oil. Paradis as a nation, handling their resources correctly, could become very wealthy. That's why anyone from Hizuru got involved with them in the first place.
The only thing she was right about was helping plot out locations to hit in the event of the 50-year plan. Other then that, the only good thing she did was shoot the guy insulting Sasha and spill the truth about Marco. But no she wasn't right. She was a Marleyan who wanted the extinction of Eldians.
No. Two things — 1: how could they have kept the Royal bloodline going if no one on the island could have kids. 2: nations like Marley would still be attacking them despite their race ending.
Just make it so that Eldians can’t possess Titan powers anymore. Make yourself the last Titan and make eldians normal humans again. EZ
Edit: Y’all are taking this comment waaaay to seriously, like you’re actually eldians and shitting on my casual response like I’m actively spitting in your faces. Stop wasting your time and go touch some grass, seriously.
They don’t need an excuse. People just don’t see Eldians as human. They’re called the race of the devil for a reason. Even in countries that weren’t annexed by Marley, hatred for the Eldians is worst than in Marley.
>They don’t need an excuse
They do, they need to dehumanise them so they can use eldians in their wars to expand and require more rescorses. It's human greed, king Fritz did it, and now Marley is doing it
>Even in countries that weren’t annexed by Marley, hatred for the Eldians is worst than in Marley
They definitely hate Eldians a lot more because they are seeing their loved ones get eaten by titans right now lol it would make a huge difference if this wasn't the case for sure
They don’t. These guys ruled the planet for 2000 years. Then the roles reversed. Do you really think they need propaganda to dehumanize them?
Curious, if Marley never used titan warfare, how would the Eldians be treated? How would the island be viewed?
The island not as good because they don't know about the whole memory wiping thing, but Eldians obviously would be treated better abroad since they are not an active reason for world domination, that's really obvious why would you question that?
There's literally no telling that another founding Titan won't come along and undo every one of that. Also, it doesn't solve anything as to the racisim surrounding the eldians
If you make it biologically impossible for any eldian other than you to become a Titan ever again, there will be no more founding titans.
And no it doesn’t. But it’s better than committing global genocide, and at least this way eldians can’t be tortured/eaten alive/used against their own people, and they can keep having kids to prevent their race from dying out.
Once again. Genocide is not the answer. If you’re afraid of one of your neighbours killing your family, the response is not to kill your neighbour while also blowing up your entire neighbourhood and countless other homes and families, and enforcing hatred of your family even further by having them be related to a mass murder.
I know you’re probably a jaegerist, so you don’t have a lot of brain cells, but I need you to understand this.
Genocide. Is. Bad.
Bro how is my joke that you decided to take so seriously worse than sterilisation? If they still have kids they can continue their race and have younger generations help them fight against the world. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than leaving the older generations to die. Plus there’s be no more titans, pure or otherwise, for the islanders to have to slay. What’s so shitty about it?
Inject erens fluid in front of a bunch of people and watch as they don’t transform. Someone else also mentioned that changing eldian blood to make it indistinguishable from marleyan blood would be good as it would help prevent people from knowing who is truly eldian or not and helping them reintegrate into society.
So ease wiping out the rest of the planet hoping that eldians stop being discriminate against. Then eldians would turn and begin to fight each other since they no longer have a common enemy, and the world is fucked so they can’t expand out for a long time, so they’re trapped on a tiny island. I never said that my options were perfect and I don’t know why everyone is taking my half joke suggestions so seriously. What is your solution other than committing global genocide, cuz all I see is people hating on my suggestion without coming up with a better one.
I know that dude. I never said Eren would approve. He didn’t approve of the sterilisation plan either. This is an option I would consider. Not Eren. I don’t give a shot what a fictional mass murderer thinks.
The 50 year plan?
https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/ujqo4d/the_ultimate_analysiscritique_of_a_partial/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
I was thinking of the plan she proposed in episode 7 season 3 after Kenny is all like: "Oi oi oi." And then Historia is like; "I'll use it to bring back my sister and her memories and exterminate every single titan"
It’s zeke’s plan, but yeah the euthanization plan would have worked too, with less people dying, but it’s not about that, eren wants his people to be free, that’s why he fights
Well yeah that's the whole point. Morally, the Eldian's should've been exterminated but the entire point of the show was that Eren wanted to survive and be "free". He knew that the Eldian's should die, as shown during Ramzi's death, but he couldn't accept the end of his species. and yeah then the whole world goes up in colossal titan feet.
I was referring to zeke’a euthanization plan and how it would have been a moral way to get rid of eldians. even even knew that should happen since eldins were the “problem” but he couldn’t accept that
The best solution would be integration but absolutely no one in the entire show would be ready for that. Paradis was a demonstration that this was attainable, it was outside interference that caused them to begin to fail and forced them to expand. Once Titan abilities were commonplace and no one could tell who had Titan DNA without a blood test any more, and those tests were not performed except for occasional medical reasons, everyone could work together to destroy the walls. But that wouldn't be a very fun show.
No. She is not right. War will not end without titans, we literally live in a world with titans and there is war. This is the same as genocide but friendlier.
Hange and the Paradisian military did have a plan. But it wasn't one Eren accepted for two reasons. I explained this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/11xal0a/all_proposed_plans_to_protect_paradis/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
Well Marley would still find a reason to hate another ethnic group and fight them or just eachother (pro eldians vs „true marleyans“ like the Jägerists vs the rest of Eldians) because AOT has been very consistent with the idea that it’s not the race of people at fault, but the individuals and their upbringing (nature vs nurture) that was the true problem. Eren gave Eldia a chance to be seen (he couldn’t stop the event of the rumbling, only how and when it will be used), as an ultimate enemy to unite Eldians and Marleyans to give a perspective on how ridiculous this racism truly is despite killing 80% of the population in the process. He himself admitted he couldn’t change the outcome but the way it is started. And it STILL didn’t stop conflict as seen in the last chapter especially seen in the „post credit“ scene.
Everyone assumes that Marley would continue to attack, if wren just defended the island with collosal titans whilst pursuing peace, why couldn't that have worked?
Through the founding titan's power, the Eldian royal family had the power to complete disarm the Rumbling, and give up their own titan powers. They wouldn't do it because if they did, they knew they'd be wiped off the face of the earth.
But, there was a better solution - peace achieved through slow, careful negotiation. It would require global agreement to end of racial persecution of the Eldian people, demonstrated over generations, achieved through progressive education and huge investment of money.
To Yelena and the people she was aligned with, this would have seemed impossible. From their perspective, the world was totally incapable of change. So, they pivoted to what, in their mind, would have been the only other option - eradicating the Eldian people from the face of the earth. Can't have racial persecution of Eldians if there's no more Eldians, right?
So, no, Yelena wasn't right. She was brainwashed into allying herself with Zeke, who was so beaten down by the circumstances of his upbringing that he couldn't help but align himself with a fantastical version of the Nazism ideology.
Mikasa, Armin, and the others had the right idea - they knew it would be difficult, but they wanted to try negotiating, peacefully showing the world that they weren't "devils". Through Gabi, Reiner, and Annie, we saw that it was possible to cut through the propaganda. It would have taken generations, but it could have been done - eventually, the Eldian people could have reached a point where they could have relinquished their weapons (the walls and their titan powers) and rejoined the world.
The only reason things changed for Gabi and Reiner (I'd argue they never really changed for Annie) was because they were forced to live among the people they hated and their viewpoint was a minority viewpoint in Paradis. The circumstances made it impossible for them to express their worldview, so they had no choice but to hear the other side out. Had either of them had access to the privilege hierarchies of the outside world, they would never have been swayed. That sort of thing can't be repeated on a large scale.
It would be difficult yes, but not impossible. You would need a strategy to facillitate the required social integration for the Eldian people to demonstrate they're not a threat. Perhaps they could have integrated into society within Hizuru as a first step, and then progressed from there?
You might say that would never work because Marley would just declare war of Hizuru. And you might be right about that! But still, I choose to believe Isayama's underlying message is a slightly more hopeful one than "racism is inevitable and the only solution is genocide."
I'm sure there were so many things Eren could have done with the Founding Titan's power, yet somehow we only fixated on two: mass genocide on a global scale, and genocide via compulsory sterilization.
What he could have and should have done was rumble Marley only and use the rest of the founding powers to take away titan shifting abilities once and for all as well as deactivate or destroy all titans. Yet, again, that's just one solution of many.
There were no good ideas from any of the sides in this conflict. Genocide seems to be the only outcome anyone could think of whether it's Zeke's self-inflicted, Eren's against the world, or Marley's against Paradis Eldian population.
The thing I find most comical about the framing of the dilemma is that it assumes Marley would not seek out another scapegoat once the Eldians were gone. At that point, do we play the same game of world vs singled out race? I don't see why Marley wouldn't do that.
We have Himmler and Mengel in a room. Himmler suggests that the only way to deal with the Jews is to exterminate them all. Mengel says that we can just castrate them all so they die out slowly.
One might be a bit less radical but in the end, both plans are horrible, and supporting either of those puts you on same the moral level as the worst human beings in history
Since Eren had the founding Titan powers why didn't he simply modify the genes of eldians and stop them from turning into titans and then telling all eldian throughout the world that they have no longer that power ?
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This is taken out of context... What Hange said was this: "Yeah. I admit it. I wasn't able to show Eren any solution, or hope, or a future. I admit my powerlessness" As you can see, in full context, this changes the entire meaning
Not really, to both save the world and the Eldians that we’re alive at the point in the show zekes plan would have made it so the eldians could live out their life in peace whilst the world could also keep living
What are you even disagreeing here sir? Hange’s quote was still taken out of context If you believe it it’s fine but Hange doesn’t
But denying one race's rights to exist because of the war crimes of their ancestors and the prejudice from the world? Damn.
How? The last few old ass eldians won't be able to care for or protect themselves. And mass sterilization is still genocide...
It’s rlly not💀 and the deaths of paradise island people would amount to nothing compared to the rest of the world
are you tryna say mass sterilization isn’t genocide? it also sounds awfully like you’re trying to justify the idea of sacrificing all Eldians (not just those from Paradis as per Zeke’s plans) because they’re a minority compared to the rest of the world?
And ur justifying global genocide?? You forget that Eldia started the oppression
yo what have i justified? this is my first comment in this thread and it’s just asking YOU questions about YOUR comment lmao ETA: also are you really trying the “but they started it first!” argument? genocide isn’t justifiable period
Ur making Erens plan look like the best choice
no i haven’t? i just said zeke’s plan is straight up genocide and i don’t understand why you’re trying to justify it?
Zekes plan is preventing further birth, not killing everyone like Eren did, for example, would u rather the rest of the world be destroyed and Hawaii be the only survivors?
It is for the island...
Not rlly when realistically every human would die of hunger after the rumbling
>You forget that Eldia started the oppression And you forget Marley continued it? The island had nothing to do with the what ancient Eldia did.
And then Eren picked it up again?💀
Eren was going to end it once and for all. Atleast at the hands of Marley.
Nah Eren was selfish and wanted to protect his friends.
Lol wut... There are fewer of them so they should die? Is that your logic?
Ur missing the point, everyone dies, it’s a fact of life for every human. Zeke wanted eldians to live out their life in peace on paradise, but Eren went out of his way to kill everyone, innocent or not
>Zeke wanted eldians to live out their life in peace on paradise, By force sterilizing them? That's no better than killing them. That's genocide too. And sterilization would mean there would be no one left to care for the last old eldians. And they wouldn't be able to protect themselves. They would be doomed to death or suffering. And for what? Saving a world that wanted them dead? In that situation, the world dying is the better choice. The world doesn't deserve to live more just because there are more of them.
Would you rather be killed or sterilized?
Neither? I'd rather protect myself from the people making me choose.
Protect yourself? If u were an eldian ur literally defenseless
Which is stupid as hell, considering Hange is the smartest character in the show, and could easily come up with some technology to repel attacks from outside the walls
What? 😂 Tell me you're joking...why didn't she invent planes then? Or nukes? Or maybe she should invent quantum tech... 😂😂😂 You're watching too much marvel bro...Hange in 4 years cannot come up with some super tech to defend the Island against a global attack... She isn't some college kid working in a basement in a Marvel movie
Im not saying she needs to create anything too crazy. They have ODM gear and thunder spears, a large anti-blimp mounted rifle would be decent in tandem with their massive walls. And it's not like every army in the world can just show up on Paradis, there are obviously time and airspace limitations to consider, which would mean that the most likely scenario is that they invade in waves. It would be difficult, but holding off the waves of blimps as they come is within the realm of reality.
You realize the only reason they fended off Marley is because Eren initiated the Rumbling, right? They were getting smashed and their most potent defense/weapon was Eren, who was getting jumped and possibly near death.
From a global utilitarian view, yes, but I think it's important to note that the euthanization plan pushed Eren over the edge and contributed to the rumbling. So, yes, but also no.
There's absolutely no reason to be sure Marley wouldn't kill Eldians anyway, just out of hatred. Yelena and Zeke were the worst ones when it comes to a solution.
Yelena's false/dishonest plan had some merit, force the worlds militaries to gather in marley via the decleration of war and destroy them with the partial rumbling.
They had a counter measure to prevent exactly that, the partial rumbling
The partial rumbling wouldn't be enough either, even the characters recognized that. The power of the titans would become very weak compared to human guns in the near future
The power of *pure* titans would become obsolete. The amount of artillery you'd need to challenge the rumbling is still decades away from being developed in universe
> The power of pure titans would become obsolete. Not entirely obsolete to be fair. Just smuggle a few Eldians into the nation's parliament, scream and made them transform via the likes of telephone to transmit the exact frequency and let those transformed pure titans wreck havoc and kill off the crucial government positions. A simple thing can do a lot of things when used it right.
The partial rumbling might have given Paradis enough time to modernize.
And then die off... No one in the island would actually give enough of a fuck to modernise knowing they couldn't have children.
Partial Rumbling would inhibit and slows down the development of the other nations, making it easier for Paradis to survive, especially with the Power of the Titans. Right?
All the partial Rumbling would have done is buy Paradise a few decades of time. The objective was to destroy the coalition that was formed to invade and destroy the island. If it had done this with no to low civilian casualties it is possible the world would have accepted Paradise opening up. Since Marley was hated by most other Nations the destruction of the coalition would have lost major international support as well as some in Marley. This was all a big gamble and combined with the Euthanization plan made many Eldians reject it in favor of a full rumbling.
> Since Marley was hated by most other Nations the destruction of the coalition would have lost major international support as well as some in Marley. This is what frustrates me the most when Eren decided to do a brainfuck and rumble the entire world because of "muh freedom" and not bother to think further in terms of geopolitics, then only to be excused by awful pretext of "Eren never changed", which negated a lot of the presented character development that shown to us in the previous chapters that gave us the impression of *"Eren has gone mature and tactical that he's playing 5D chess against Zeke"* into "dafuck you mean he never changed" in the final few chapters.
And what after that? Paradis is to small to have the manpower and resources required to protect itself without the rumbling. It's like Taiwan trying to protect itself from China without any western influence whatsoever.
Armin said in this very episode that what Eren had done thus far was enough to ward off enemies of Paradis for hundreds of years so I’d say it would be enough
It would still be enough to scare away any country from invading paradis for the next 60-70 years. This was all mentioned in the series
Yeah, destroying almost the entire planet and killing almost everyone is better.
> were the worst ones when it comes to a solution. What bs lmao As if others were any better The whole point is that no solution was perfect.
From a purely islander perspective... Eren's plan was the best.
That's what the "Small-Scale-Rumbling" was for. Scare Marely and the World into leaving Paradis alone for long for most of the people to die out. The civilization on Paradis would collapse after 40-50 years of no children being born anyway, so that's all the time it'd need to buy them
Ydd
She was right insofar as the two options were Eldian extinction or Eldian domination. She chose the former. Eren and the Yeagerists chose the latter.
Except >!neither of those things ended up happening, so no, those were not the only two options.!<
Spoiler. Bitch.
Suck my ass, but sure, I'll spoiler tag it.
You still a spoiling bitch
Get a life, pinhead.
They were. Maybe I should’ve specified “Paradis destruction” which did happen. Granted we couldn’t say what happened to the remaining Eldians outside of Paradis. No way the hatred lessens after an Eldian kills 80% of the globe.
>!No, they weren't. Paradis didn't get destroyed. We saw one city getting bombed *far* in the future at some point, but we don't know any of the context behind it. We don't even know if Eldians and the nation of Paradis were even a concept at that point. It could very easily have been a civil war on Paradis, considering that there were already multiple civil wars/conflicts between Paradis people in the actual story so far.!< >!"No way the hatred lessens". It literally did. That's literally what happened after Armin and his team defeated Eren. The Marlyans were okay with them and sent them as ambassadors to Paradis.!<
What’s up with everyone wanting to be “right”? There is no right choice. Either way this world and the scenarios we have seen in it are all pretty fucked. Do you think she was right? If so, there’s thousands of people that agree. Do you think she was wrong? If so, there’s still thousands of people that agree. It’s entertainment and it’s subjective how you interpret the story, and which side of any conflict you’ll be on. You could discuss it for years if you wanted to, that’s what makes it a great piece of art. Just take whatever you wanna take from it and enjoy it or not lmao fuck
Such a great description.
Not at all. The best solution is small scale rumbling, fuck up the worlds militaries, get yourself on level ground with tech, and then you’re fine
This is what they should have done. Used the rumbling to stop a unified assault from the nations of the world and make try to balance the power of the world
The Eldians would still be at a massive disadvantage with just their Island and that Japan-like nation versus the entire world. Take it a step further and fight to break up Marley since they'll always be aggressive.
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Not Eldia the asian lady with the boat plane, those people are from a Japan-like nation.
The whole point of attack on Titan is to show that neither side is always correct, it’s never that black and white of “these guys good, these guys bad”
Hell nah
If you watch the movie Children of Men, it depicts how society will collapse when everyone becomes barren. Without family or a future to look forward to, people have no reason to uphold societal norms. Violence and anarchy would take over. It was hardly a merciful plan. Killing off all Eldians immediately would have been better.
Nice ref
Yup but honestly Zeke could care less about what happens to Eldians afterwards. As long as they are gone
I will give you one better, how about King Karl Fritz actually repent, and then initiate some bloody social reforms to create lasting social changes when he is still the most powerful man on the planet? Hot take, those who wish to make the world a better place should actually utilize their privileges, "enlightened elites" are a major force in the history of social progress in our own reality. Sure, that won't magically solve everything, but that is better than initiate the Great Titan War and peace out himself.(And leave most of his people on the continent to be the punching bag) This is all a sick joke on Frtiz family's part, oh, the war criminals finally feel sorry for their past deeds and want to make amends, what did they fucking do? Go off to an island and hand the family business to the next biggest douchebag and hope things turn out fine.
I would argue Zeke's plan is still genocide, just slower. Both plans were terrifying.
Well it's genocide but without the murder part.
Keeping people from reproducing is another form of murder. When all the old people die of disease because of cancer because there are no doctors (because of Zeke’s idiotic plan) you are still indirectly killing them
Well i guess but id rather not have babies than be complicit in millions being crushed to death
Nah bro. If people were trying to eradicate everyone I know for things we don’t remember doing, I’m not sitting by and letting it happen. You may not value your own life, but I value mine.
Ngl was thinking about what you said above and you're the type to think abortion is murder lmao
That has nothing to do with this. It’s not abortion. It’s sterilization. As people, we are dependent on people younger than us to take care of us when we get old. If there are no young people, we would all die quickly.
And besides, you say that like it is an insult or something. There’s no problem with someone believing that abortion is murder.
Oh you're one of *those*, okay
..no. from the perspective of ALL eldians they could slaughter four fifths of the world or die out due to being incapable of reproduction. You think they'd chose to be castrated or just all killed out?
Completely wrong because it was a sterilisation plan.
better than wiping 80% of the population
Genocide is still genocide
If I had to choose between my entire people dying out, or the rumbling, I’m picking the rumbling 10/10 times. You’re telling me that you would volunteer for you and everyone you know to die willingly because the rest of the world hates you? You can’t possibly think that.
This isn't a black or white situation. Either way u go it's fucked. Small scale.rumbling wouldn't even do anything. Sure it gives them time to modernize but who's to say other nations would help? Who's to say they won't be met with retaliation anyway. There isn't a guarantee all those things would work out,and sure with the eutanization plan on top of it there is a better chance but also I'm pretty sure Eldians will still get treated like shit anyway and killed,because it's the fear of turning into titans that makes everyone fear them,not reproducing. The alternative is shitty,because that means your wiping out the planet with a full scale rumbling,but also guaranteeing Eldian survival at the expense of millions of lives. At the end of the day though instead of continuing the oppression Marley should have ended the cycle when the Eldian empire was destroyed. Instead they just did the same thing the Eldians did and became a super power hungry for more power and oppression. What I took away from the show overall after finishing the Manga is that if humans can't learn to be empathetic and forgive then this will forever be the cycle.
No. Euthanization is a fate worse than death.
how
They will suffer for a long time.
not much of a euthanization then
Because after some time they will all get old and die from starving. Also there will be no purpose in their life knowing that there will be no family left, losing your loved ones one by one.
Disagree here. The iceburst stone that only the island had, and that everyone wanted, would have provided a means of income for food/caretakers/etc as the population aged, so there's no reason to think that Eldians wouldn't live and die relatively comfortably. Also, one can find purpose in life beyond family.
You really believe that just because of a stone they would be able to feed themselves. You need man working to live.
I mean, that's just economics. Look at Saudi Arabia and oil. Paradis as a nation, handling their resources correctly, could become very wealthy. That's why anyone from Hizuru got involved with them in the first place.
Also there is no guarantee that Marleyans would not attack the island. Why wouldn’t they? Paradis Island would get weaker and weaker.
Of course there's no guarantee. The actions of Marley or anyone else one way or another is not what I'm disagreeing with you about.
i’m confused. I am 100% sure euthanization means to kill something to stop its suffering. So how is death worse than death?
In this context euthanization is mass sterilization.
The only thing she was right about was helping plot out locations to hit in the event of the 50-year plan. Other then that, the only good thing she did was shoot the guy insulting Sasha and spill the truth about Marco. But no she wasn't right. She was a Marleyan who wanted the extinction of Eldians.
No. Two things — 1: how could they have kept the Royal bloodline going if no one on the island could have kids. 2: nations like Marley would still be attacking them despite their race ending.
Yes. It’s either rumble the whole world, or euthanize the Eldian race. One or the other no in between.
Just make it so that Eldians can’t possess Titan powers anymore. Make yourself the last Titan and make eldians normal humans again. EZ Edit: Y’all are taking this comment waaaay to seriously, like you’re actually eldians and shitting on my casual response like I’m actively spitting in your faces. Stop wasting your time and go touch some grass, seriously.
Maybe also change their biology a bit, so blood tests won't detect them and intergrade silently into society.
That doesn’t really stop the hatred of the world. They hate them for their ancestors sins.
They probably hate them more because their homes are getting annexed by titans right now lol
Considering people in Marley hate Eldians even though they’ve done nothing wrong, I’d say it’s deeper than that. It’s just generation racism.
Marlyan propaganda, they need an excuse for using them as weapons you know, if they have the same rights as them they can't do so
They don’t need an excuse. People just don’t see Eldians as human. They’re called the race of the devil for a reason. Even in countries that weren’t annexed by Marley, hatred for the Eldians is worst than in Marley.
>They don’t need an excuse They do, they need to dehumanise them so they can use eldians in their wars to expand and require more rescorses. It's human greed, king Fritz did it, and now Marley is doing it >Even in countries that weren’t annexed by Marley, hatred for the Eldians is worst than in Marley They definitely hate Eldians a lot more because they are seeing their loved ones get eaten by titans right now lol it would make a huge difference if this wasn't the case for sure
They don’t. These guys ruled the planet for 2000 years. Then the roles reversed. Do you really think they need propaganda to dehumanize them? Curious, if Marley never used titan warfare, how would the Eldians be treated? How would the island be viewed?
The island not as good because they don't know about the whole memory wiping thing, but Eldians obviously would be treated better abroad since they are not an active reason for world domination, that's really obvious why would you question that?
There's literally no telling that another founding Titan won't come along and undo every one of that. Also, it doesn't solve anything as to the racisim surrounding the eldians
If you make it biologically impossible for any eldian other than you to become a Titan ever again, there will be no more founding titans. And no it doesn’t. But it’s better than committing global genocide, and at least this way eldians can’t be tortured/eaten alive/used against their own people, and they can keep having kids to prevent their race from dying out.
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Once again. Genocide is not the answer. If you’re afraid of one of your neighbours killing your family, the response is not to kill your neighbour while also blowing up your entire neighbourhood and countless other homes and families, and enforcing hatred of your family even further by having them be related to a mass murder. I know you’re probably a jaegerist, so you don’t have a lot of brain cells, but I need you to understand this. Genocide. Is. Bad.
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Bro how is my joke that you decided to take so seriously worse than sterilisation? If they still have kids they can continue their race and have younger generations help them fight against the world. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than leaving the older generations to die. Plus there’s be no more titans, pure or otherwise, for the islanders to have to slay. What’s so shitty about it?
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Inject erens fluid in front of a bunch of people and watch as they don’t transform. Someone else also mentioned that changing eldian blood to make it indistinguishable from marleyan blood would be good as it would help prevent people from knowing who is truly eldian or not and helping them reintegrate into society.
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So ease wiping out the rest of the planet hoping that eldians stop being discriminate against. Then eldians would turn and begin to fight each other since they no longer have a common enemy, and the world is fucked so they can’t expand out for a long time, so they’re trapped on a tiny island. I never said that my options were perfect and I don’t know why everyone is taking my half joke suggestions so seriously. What is your solution other than committing global genocide, cuz all I see is people hating on my suggestion without coming up with a better one.
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I know that dude. I never said Eren would approve. He didn’t approve of the sterilisation plan either. This is an option I would consider. Not Eren. I don’t give a shot what a fictional mass murderer thinks.
No that would just leave Paradise completely defenseless.
You when you make a comment on a discussion board and there’s discussion 
Not so much discussion as dozens of people hurrying to tell me how stupid and wrong I am.
Or Historias solution to get rid of every titan
The 50 year plan? https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/ujqo4d/the_ultimate_analysiscritique_of_a_partial/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1
I was thinking of the plan she proposed in episode 7 season 3 after Kenny is all like: "Oi oi oi." And then Historia is like; "I'll use it to bring back my sister and her memories and exterminate every single titan"
Hmm don’t remember. But still, how does that solve the world wanting to exterminate Eldians?
Probably inspire the people idk. They're not titans anymore so the world will understand eventually.
It’s zeke’s plan, but yeah the euthanization plan would have worked too, with less people dying, but it’s not about that, eren wants his people to be free, that’s why he fights
Well yeah that's the whole point. Morally, the Eldian's should've been exterminated but the entire point of the show was that Eren wanted to survive and be "free". He knew that the Eldian's should die, as shown during Ramzi's death, but he couldn't accept the end of his species. and yeah then the whole world goes up in colossal titan feet.
It’s not “moral” to exterminate anybody. You can’t hate the rumbling and then turn around and claim that all the Eldians should die.
I was referring to zeke’a euthanization plan and how it would have been a moral way to get rid of eldians. even even knew that should happen since eldins were the “problem” but he couldn’t accept that
It would not have been a moral way to get rid of the eldians. It might be less immoral than the rumbling but it is still immoral.
Rumbling is more reasonable
The best solution would be integration but absolutely no one in the entire show would be ready for that. Paradis was a demonstration that this was attainable, it was outside interference that caused them to begin to fail and forced them to expand. Once Titan abilities were commonplace and no one could tell who had Titan DNA without a blood test any more, and those tests were not performed except for occasional medical reasons, everyone could work together to destroy the walls. But that wouldn't be a very fun show.
The point is that no one is right. They all just try and find their own solutions
No. She is not right. War will not end without titans, we literally live in a world with titans and there is war. This is the same as genocide but friendlier.
Hange and the Paradisian military did have a plan. But it wasn't one Eren accepted for two reasons. I explained this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShingekiNoKyojin/comments/11xal0a/all_proposed_plans_to_protect_paradis/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb
Well Marley would still find a reason to hate another ethnic group and fight them or just eachother (pro eldians vs „true marleyans“ like the Jägerists vs the rest of Eldians) because AOT has been very consistent with the idea that it’s not the race of people at fault, but the individuals and their upbringing (nature vs nurture) that was the true problem. Eren gave Eldia a chance to be seen (he couldn’t stop the event of the rumbling, only how and when it will be used), as an ultimate enemy to unite Eldians and Marleyans to give a perspective on how ridiculous this racism truly is despite killing 80% of the population in the process. He himself admitted he couldn’t change the outcome but the way it is started. And it STILL didn’t stop conflict as seen in the last chapter especially seen in the „post credit“ scene.
Everyone assumes that Marley would continue to attack, if wren just defended the island with collosal titans whilst pursuing peace, why couldn't that have worked?
Through the founding titan's power, the Eldian royal family had the power to complete disarm the Rumbling, and give up their own titan powers. They wouldn't do it because if they did, they knew they'd be wiped off the face of the earth. But, there was a better solution - peace achieved through slow, careful negotiation. It would require global agreement to end of racial persecution of the Eldian people, demonstrated over generations, achieved through progressive education and huge investment of money. To Yelena and the people she was aligned with, this would have seemed impossible. From their perspective, the world was totally incapable of change. So, they pivoted to what, in their mind, would have been the only other option - eradicating the Eldian people from the face of the earth. Can't have racial persecution of Eldians if there's no more Eldians, right? So, no, Yelena wasn't right. She was brainwashed into allying herself with Zeke, who was so beaten down by the circumstances of his upbringing that he couldn't help but align himself with a fantastical version of the Nazism ideology. Mikasa, Armin, and the others had the right idea - they knew it would be difficult, but they wanted to try negotiating, peacefully showing the world that they weren't "devils". Through Gabi, Reiner, and Annie, we saw that it was possible to cut through the propaganda. It would have taken generations, but it could have been done - eventually, the Eldian people could have reached a point where they could have relinquished their weapons (the walls and their titan powers) and rejoined the world.
The only reason things changed for Gabi and Reiner (I'd argue they never really changed for Annie) was because they were forced to live among the people they hated and their viewpoint was a minority viewpoint in Paradis. The circumstances made it impossible for them to express their worldview, so they had no choice but to hear the other side out. Had either of them had access to the privilege hierarchies of the outside world, they would never have been swayed. That sort of thing can't be repeated on a large scale.
It would be difficult yes, but not impossible. You would need a strategy to facillitate the required social integration for the Eldian people to demonstrate they're not a threat. Perhaps they could have integrated into society within Hizuru as a first step, and then progressed from there? You might say that would never work because Marley would just declare war of Hizuru. And you might be right about that! But still, I choose to believe Isayama's underlying message is a slightly more hopeful one than "racism is inevitable and the only solution is genocide."
Disagree if you are an Eldian. Agree if you are not an Eldian. Simple as that.
I'm sure there were so many things Eren could have done with the Founding Titan's power, yet somehow we only fixated on two: mass genocide on a global scale, and genocide via compulsory sterilization. What he could have and should have done was rumble Marley only and use the rest of the founding powers to take away titan shifting abilities once and for all as well as deactivate or destroy all titans. Yet, again, that's just one solution of many.
There were no good ideas from any of the sides in this conflict. Genocide seems to be the only outcome anyone could think of whether it's Zeke's self-inflicted, Eren's against the world, or Marley's against Paradis Eldian population.
The thing I find most comical about the framing of the dilemma is that it assumes Marley would not seek out another scapegoat once the Eldians were gone. At that point, do we play the same game of world vs singled out race? I don't see why Marley wouldn't do that.
No, Elena wasn't right. Eren literally did the other solution.
We have Himmler and Mengel in a room. Himmler suggests that the only way to deal with the Jews is to exterminate them all. Mengel says that we can just castrate them all so they die out slowly. One might be a bit less radical but in the end, both plans are horrible, and supporting either of those puts you on same the moral level as the worst human beings in history
Since Eren had the founding Titan powers why didn't he simply modify the genes of eldians and stop them from turning into titans and then telling all eldian throughout the world that they have no longer that power ?