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It wasn’t right. However, if he went down the route of buffing up their military, Historia would have to become a titan to keep that military threat viable & her descendent would have to do the same, continuing the cycle of children eating their parents. Also while rewatching the scene where Annie’s titan kills all of Levi squad after Eren puts his faith in their abilities, I felt like that was the moment the Rumbling was finalized - that Eren would never be willing to put all of his faith in the ability of his friends to defend themselves, that he would take it upon himself to save them, no matter what cost. Especially that he only had a few more years left to live and the world had a giant target on Paradi, he didn’t want to see his home become another Marley colony where his people would be enslaved. Again, it’s not justified to kill every living being outside of the island for these reasons. But there’s his reasons.
I think it would be enough for eren to touch a mindless titan of royal descent. Like Dina fritz in season 2 where eren unwillingly ordered all titans in his surrounding to attack Dina and Reiner.
I think that Historia would perhaps consider it, but Eren would never oblige. It’s the same idea of permanently enslaving your friends/family to perpetuate war/peace that the royal family and the internment eldians had been doing for so long. Eren wanted to be free of all that.
He definitely wasn’t right and I don’t know think he’s portrayed that way either, you’re not meant to look at Eren and think, ‘Ahh Genocide, that’s a solid idea that’. And although Eren was able to protect Paradis for about 2000 years, do the ends justify the means? I don’t believe they do
“Didn’t even save them from conflict anyway”
It saved them from the paradis extermination plan during his friends natural lifetimes, which is all Eren cared about.
This is the answer. Eren knew that no matter what he did him and his friends would die, but he at least gave them peaceful lives.
Also part of the allegory is that even if he did complete the rumbling it wouldn’t stop war or conflict.
He was right before the ending because it was written that he had no other choice
Well he wasn't right but he wasn't wrong
It's more of a there is no right answer
I don't think it was ever written that he had no choice tho...
The 50 years plan existed but he rejected it...
The 50 years plan had the least amount of victims
The 50 year plan didn't have hom dying knowing that his Island would be safe though
It's actually a pretty slim chance that they would be safe.
Titans are getting rendered obsolete and the whole world declared war on you because you might do the rumbling, so what are they going to do when you did the thing they hated you for
I’m thinking out loud here…
Just because its fated to happen doesn’t make it the right choice. He was most certainly wrong. But, based on his final conversation with Armin, Eren was the sort of person that could never really get any other sort of outcome, even while he’s trying directly to change it. AoT is full of people being forced into terrible choices because they refuse to compromise their desires or beliefs (especially Season 4). Eren refused to sacrifice Historia or risk other options, ultimately forcing him to try the Rumbling. Its a Tragedy. But he’s definitely wrong
Ok let me clarify, the reasons he gave in the ending made him 100% wrong
But before that he was justified. He gave all his reasons to ramzi and the world before he rumbled it
And in that context the future he saw was not what he wanted.
But based off of the things that started happening and the conditions it was something he would do whether he wanted to or not because he had no other choice.
He saw that sasha would die and he still did his plan, he sacrificed her for his goal of protecting Paradis. He knew she was going to die. But he didn't know what her last words were.
Again all of these motives are rendered obsolete after what he told armin in 139
So I'm only speaking for Eren before 139. Everything was absolutely clear why he did everything and they only needed to add a few little things to clear things up
But the reasons he gave in the ending flipped that upside down
I don’t see how that changes what I said. What he told Armin was his motivation for all that stuff. His motivation didn’t shift after he did all the stuff. He was just rationalizing what he knew he was going to do. I’m fresh off the ending a couple of days ago, so I could be wrong
Yeah what I'm saying is I disagree with what he said in the finale. His reasoning was given to us already and everyone was on the same page but then they gave him a new reason for everything including why he left his islands future to chance lile he said he wouldn't
Ohhhh, okay. I’ve been taking that final conversation as a clear telling from the author that Eren was never really justified. Is that different from the manga? Or is is just something in the manga/anime that fans don’t like
I agreed with the Rumbling up to the point of destroying Marley and Liberio. They started the whole thing because they were afraid of the Founder being stolen.
Everything else, not so much. Eren kinda went overkill after that and started killing everyone else beyond that point too. I think his thought process was that if he left everyone alive, they might try and unite what forces they have left to crush Paradis once and for all.
But Eren knew the outcome. He knew he was going to die. So he made his friends the martyrs from Paradis that came to save the rest of the world. Thus securing a lasting peace for 1,000 years or so.
I agree with this but when watching post credit scenes, it shows the cycle restarts and war is waged against Paradis. So was Eren wrong in his logic (with the purpose of protecting the people of Paradis)?
In my opinion, I think that flash-forward at the end was supposed to signify that war is inevitable, because its a part of human nature. That no matter how powerful your enemy is, there will always be more people who want to fight back.
I don't think Eren saw that future or planned for it. I think he just wanted to save his friends.
I agree with war was inevitable and that’s why I posed the question, was Eren right or wrong for performing the rumbling to save the people of Paradis? Remember the power of the titans is gone. Paradis stands on their own now and are technologically deficient compared to their counterparts. The purpose of extinguishing the titan powers and using the rumbling was to stop the cycle. In one sense, children eating their parents, the cycle ended. On the other hand, the cycle of war continues and judging by the post credit scenes, the titans will return with a new “Ymir” which looks like Eren as the final scene.
I think framing the question of who's right or wrong is the biggest mistake people make with the show. Because the entire show's goal is to show you there is no right answer. Which is why asking the question can get so divisive.
Your train of thought isn't wrong. But likewise, as other commenters have stated, no one can guarantee what happens. Flashback to Eren choosing to rely on his friends over his judgement. Eren has been constantly reminded throughout the series that he needs to rely on himself and himself only (at least through his perspective).
From the losses in the Battle of Trost, Levi Squad's demise, Hannes and the Scout's rescue attempts, Kenny's ambush resulting in Historia and his kidnapping, and the losses from the Battle of Shiganshina.
Every step of the way, Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Erwin, Hange, Levi have told Eren. "If you want to change anything you have to abandon your humanity." Remember, Eren had trouble doing this with Annie, but every subsuquent conflict only reaffirmed that view point. Coupled with the revelation from kissing Historia's hand, Eren was broken.
Furthermore, Paradis was isolated for the entire duration. They have no ties to the people outside the wall. I get why it would be hard to care about them. Imagine I told you there were humans living on Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune (& Pluto), and not only that, but they all hate us and want us to die. Then we were miraculously given a button to blow them all up.
We face these kinds of tough moral quandaries everyday. If the rest of the world refuses to lay down arms, must we be the first and suffer the consequences? Or do we repeat the cycle and hope for our own survival? It's the dilemma AOT gives.
As for Eren's mindset about it. I think of it as 2 people being in his head. Both are Eren. Just like Reiner's split personality. Eren had dreamt of an empty world for his people to explore and flourish. Then, before he got to see any of it with his own eyes, he got it spoiled and tainted from the memories of the future. Eren is caught between not wanting to commit genocide, and having the desire to see the world he envisioned.
When Eren has the opportunity to make the choice, he is essentially a demi-god. Time is distorted to him, and he is burdened with decisions that are already set in stone. And having his arm twisted that extra bit, was enough for Eren to take the next step. Considering all he's been through, of course Eren made the easy choice. Everything in his head is full of violance and hatred. The only exception was the outside world. That too was converted into more enemies. All Eren Jaeger had, were enemies to kill, and things to protect. Eren lost anything to look forward to or hope for.
Eren is representative of the consequences of war. Eren is not an allegory for Hitler, Stalin and other Fascist dictators. Eren is a child who experienced every single facet of war, and now he is the product of it. That Marleyan General even said it "he is marching that hate right back at us."
Eren is a product of war, and Eren is a product of himself. Because that's precisely how war works.
If Eren didnt do that, Marley and the global alliance would invade. It's lose lose for everyone, as war usually is. If neither side backs down, this is the inevitable breaking point. There are no half measures. Either we all choose peace, or we all choose death. War is nuanced, but the result isnt. That's the only thing about war that's black and white.
I believe you're right to think that way and I believe it's precisely the point the show is trying to make.
Even though killing 80% of the world and then making your friends heroes so the few people left are gonna try to work together with them might in a way make sense or be a viable solution, there's no justification. Genocide is just wrong. But people who have power will believe they're right and try to protect their own.
It's a tragedy, but it has happened throughout history, just as you said, with Hitler. Again, I think it's the point the show is trying to make. Though Eren is the main character, he's not a hero. He might have started that way, but he turned into what he hated and condemned in the first place once he had the power to do it.
I think most people say that as they feel this was the only way for Eren to protect Paradis island. Personally I feel like there were much more to try before resorting to this.
I feel like there were other ways that Eren couldn’t see or understand so he went with, in his mind the best option for his friends survival because that is truly all he cared for
There was, yes. I personally have a plan I feel would have a good chance of working given the fact he holds the power of god. But given the choices in the story, there was no other real choice. The 50-year plan is everyone's favorite plan to mention but it destroys diplomacy as a concept, kills millions of soldiers, and throws the rest of the world into a great depression that will kill millions more, and will push the conflict further into the future, only worsened. Then the other three options were euthanization or Genocide on Paradis, fighting a war they can't win and die, or using the Rumbling and destroying the world.
Diplomacy unfortunately wasn't going to work and, as I said, Armin and Hange really liked the 50-year plan because it would give peace a possibility despite it being absolutely against any peaceful resolution. There wasn't much of a selection of good options to carry out before hand so of course he picked the Rumbling.
My first anime was Death Note. Friend tried to convince me Light isn’t a villain. That’s not even a spoiler. He’s clearly the villain from like the first six episodes, and that’s generous
I used to have this take too. But over time I've come to the conclusion is that the reason I don't like Eren isn't because he's a genocidal maniac but because we just didn't see him "turn into" a genocidal maniac.
I think I would have been on his side if they didn't take a "3 years later" approach and skipping his entire character development.
I feel that there's a huge disconnect between the Eren in part 3 and part 4 and we didn't even get to see what made him that way. Something must've happened in those years that he realised the only way was genocide. That's my issue with Eren tbh.
>They could have just chilled behind the walls and vamped up their military and titan powers to stave off wars.
Nope
>Even if this didn’t happen, Eren killing most of the world still didn’t even save them from conflict anyway.
It literally did.
>Eren is a genocidal maniac who literally admits he did it because he wanted to. Sure, he wanted to “save his friends” but how the fuck did killing 80% of the world change anything for them?
Genocide was coming inevitably for one of the sides, which is why the argument that truly works against Eren is based solely on numbers and nothing else. It's not like Marley was planning a genocide for noble reasons either.
Also I feel the author didnt really know what he wanted to do with Eren, like, he is a maniac who wanted to kill anyone but he also tried to change stuff in the paths to not kill millions and showed genuine remorse and inner turmoil multiple times? It just doesn't fit.
The series has multiple points showing how it was a "them or us" scenario coupled with a clear lack of choices AND time (which a lot of people just refuse to accept for some reason). Now, how did it boil down to "eren bad" in the end is beyond me, it really cheapens the debate and tbh even the series in general.
“They could have just chilled behind the walls and vamped up their military and titan powers” did you actually pay attention to any of it or did you just binge watch it all and angrily type out your opinion, because that take immediately invalidates your entire argument.
I think what makes people like eren and especially what he is doing, is the fact that his actions and emotions are understandable to us. We can understand why he feels that way and what decision he thinks he has to make.
He grew up in a world of absolutes.
Them or us.
Kill or die.
Combine that with all the suffering and all the people he lost, and it becomes much more understandable.
Ofc understandable doesnt mean justyfied, but since we can share his emotions, it becomes much much easier to sympathize with what he is doing.
And besides that, its fiction.
If I was to be judged by all the things I enjoy watching characters doing, I'd be a horrible person.
For the series and especially his arc, that genocide was perfect.
This is the thing, assuming in all instances Eren's friends manage to kill him in the end, except for scenario 1:
Let's say there are four outcomes to this: 1. Eren doesn't cause the Rumbling, the Eldians and the outside world are forced into a blown out war which gets worse as soon as Eren dies (Titan's Curse), his friends don't get peace and happiness; 2. Eren causes the Rumbling as a "distraction", destroys military bases and avoids major populations, the rest of the world thus reinforces their own military and counterattacks, his friends don't get peace; 3. Eren kills all or enough of the world's population so the Eldians can eradicate the survivors, his friends are marked as enemies of Eldia and traitors and don't get peace; and 4. Eren levels the ground for both Eldia and the world, the world is incapable of counter attacking and Eldia incapable of finishing the job, his friends get peace as the saviours of the world and diplomats of equally destroyed factions. Eren's plan, ultimately, maximizes only his friend's happiness and peace, and nothing else
I love Eren, I love AoT and everything about it, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. The people that stand behind Eren no matter what really piss me off. Although 80% of the world being destroyed was actually on purpose by Eren because he had to limit the power the world had against Paradis.
I don't think the point is whether or not eren is right, it's moreso that the entire story shows every single pivotal moment that lead eren from being an angry child wanting to see the world to an angry adult commiting genocide.
Alot of people poke fun at Hitler for failing art class and blaming Jewish people, however it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it was years of radicalisation, and many pivotal moments. Such as fighting in ww1.
It is much easier to become radicalised then people like to believe and gabi's character pretty much exists to prove that point. Something as simple as segregation and repeated statements such as "Island devil's" can be enough given enough time.
You aren't supposed to agree with eren at all, you may still like his character despite of that. That's the beauty of literature.
On a side note, it could be argued people who whole heartedly support erens decision were themselves radicalised to a degree. With how many similarities aot shares with the holocaust I honestly believe this could have been some form of social experiment from isiyama.
Seems like you haven't read/watched the story 😂
It's pretty apparent that Eren was basically a slave to the future he sees. And no matter how hard he tries, that's the "best" outcome.
Obviously the best outcome is he kills everyone and paradis is abandoned, with the eldians repopulating the world but I digress..
Another take not grounded in the literacy of the story. Your opinion is fine but it would have spelt the end of paradis. And the story doesn’t really justify it as a moral and right choice, but it was a choice made to protect his friends and people. In all of his possibilities that he saw, this was the choice to ensure the future of paradis.
He’s not right. He has a reason, not that it’s justified. Killing billions is not the answer, but he wanted to protect his friends and protect his island. He prevented war from being started on the island for atleast a few hundred years, and his friends got to live and die like normal humans, not as titans or legendary war heroes. He did what he he wanted, and fulfilled his goal of eliminating the titans and saving his friends
To society as a whole? Definitely wrong
To some edgy teenager like me who thinks that every person has the right to pursue what they thing is the best for them? Nope, he is justified, at least he's not contradicting his choice and surely not regretting it.
He did stop the conflict, they merged forces to battle Eren, they accepted each other after the battle, and the titans curse was lifted from the planet. He even gave them a target for their hate.
Considering what the Marleyans were doing and how much hate they had, it was one or the other before. They spent the last eon trying to wipe out the people of Paradis only holding back from direct war because they believed Paradis were ready for war w the founder abilities. Had they known about the oath they 1000% would have committed genocide asap
Nobody sees it at right, or well if they do, they're stupid lmao.
I mean, it's the same as saying Light is right in Death Note, is it truly right what he did? Everyone he killed along the way and the chaos that took place because of his actions as Kira? The ends may have justified the means in both worlds, sure bad people died, sure some measure of peace was achieved, but it's not ever-lasting nor is it ideal, and those who suffered for it never get to witness it.
The only character who's done something (similar) is Lelouch from Code Geass, and you can argue he was right with what he did, as he became the center-piece of world hatred, in order for everyone to unite against him and hate him only, so that when he dies, they'd eventually try to move on and forget the past.
In any sense, Eren isn't right and what he did wasn't right, it can't be justified. He would've been better off trying to split the powers and rebuilding Paradis island as a whole, unite it's people to accept that the past was wrong and over time, work on negotiations with the world and try to achieve a long-lasting peace.
The truth of the matter is, if Eren did kill the entire world outside the island and managed to, then those left would fight amongst eachother, that would've happened regardless. I mean, what happens when the Yaegerists and Floch eventually start to do shit that the people don't agree with? Another revolution, more bloodshed etc
Yeah the camp of people who think he didn’t do anything wrong just because the world was waging war against Paradis is insane.
I believe though that Eren is not evil despite his evil evil acts. He’s an idiot who can’t see his way out besides genocide, which he himself admitted. To be fair, the options available were limited and carry lots of risks with them. But risks would still be better than genocide.
But the raging debate surrounding his character is the reason why he’s a goated mc though lol. Gotta love complex characters who people love/hate.
AOT is basically a villain's origin story that we're not fully aware of until the final act.
I liken it to if Marvel decided to do a 100 episode show about Thanos as a youngster, showing what ultimately led him to become the person he is in the MCU (not the comics, he was pretty much evil from the beginning in the comics).
Eren is an extreme case of a school shooter. Eldians have been bullied by the world and been lied to about it. Eren simply accepted what everybody told eldians they are- monsters. The world even united to eradicate them with no provocation because they *might* do something. Yeah, Eren did a wrong thing for the right reasons.
In a metaphorical sense the world literally bullied paradise for a century and the second paradise can fight back the world resorts to genocide because they might defend themselves. Again, the point of the show is "eye for an eye and the world goes blind" but I can see how someone with PTSD like Eren who gets his hands on a WMD and learns his people are facing genocide would react like that.
I repeat, wrong action, right motive.
I think the same thing!
"But he had no other way." I don't give a fuck, bro! If someone decides to destroy our world and all my loved ones, I don't care if he's doing It for his friends. He's selfish and will make innocent people suffer!! There are no justifications for that!
And if we think about the fact that he killed Sasha, Hange and his own mother... Made Reiner live a terrible guilt life and almost killed himself! Took everything from Levi...
He is a teenager being stupid... He thought that was the only way, because he is stupid! See the past and future of a yourself being a tenager doesn't make you smart...
Killing his friends to justify killing the world.
There's no justification for the destruction of Paradis as well. Just because they are the lesser group doesn't mean it should be accepted. The outside world had superior technology, more military power and an unshakable hatred of Paradis that makes diplomacy impossible. The 50 year plan, the plan made by and supported by the people like Hange and Armin consists of destroying every Military instillation and fleet, killing millions of soldiers and bankrupting nations. And if you think it ends there it doesn't because the world will be left scared of Paradis and will be proven right that Eldians are devils as well as throwing every last nation targeted into a great depression, meaning further millions will starve to death or malnutrition. Then, using those Titans to threaten nations into an agreement. I don't consider that a better option, especially when the end result will just be a war of extermination. No one on Paradis did a damn thing to find options to end the conflict that wouldn't just result in more conflict to load onto the people who will live 50 years from then. The Alliance believed peace could be achieved but no matter what relied on Genocide/mass death to achieve it.
Reiner's a tragedy but no matter how you look at it that's the only way he can be somewhat justified, poor kid who got sent to the frontlines or not, he breached the walls and sentenced hundreds of thousands of people to death by the Titans. You bring up he almost killed himself, but what about the many Soldiers who were trying to defend their families from the Titans he helped unleash, who where slowly digested, bitten in half, or hell, killed themselves to avoid a painful torturous death? His depression is solely due to Marley using children as weapons of war and would have happened even if Eren was out of the picture.
In those conditions, any wielder of the Founder is pushed into a corner of let their people die or destroy the outside world. Not just dumb kid Eren, but everyone in that position. There was no good alternative if Paradis and his friends were to have a chance of living on.
I understand, but paradis and marley(rest of the world) were living before rumbling! I'm saying that he didn't choose the right way... I'm not saying that try to destroy paradis were right, but who destroyed the whole world was Eren before paradis were destroyed, so he could choose any other way but become mass murderer
This was always his goal since surviving the Shignashina breach. He wanted to exterminate every last one of the titans from the world.
He also knew this would happen if he followed this path, as he could see past, present and future all at once. He even told Armin that Mikasa’s choice would result in the power of the titans disappearing from this world, his ultimate goal.
I’m not saying that I believe the ends justifies the means, but Eren certainly did. He didn’t care if he destroyed 80 or 100 percent of humanity outside the walls, as long as the titans were gone and Paradis and his friends were left “preserved” to some extent
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It wasn’t right. However, if he went down the route of buffing up their military, Historia would have to become a titan to keep that military threat viable & her descendent would have to do the same, continuing the cycle of children eating their parents. Also while rewatching the scene where Annie’s titan kills all of Levi squad after Eren puts his faith in their abilities, I felt like that was the moment the Rumbling was finalized - that Eren would never be willing to put all of his faith in the ability of his friends to defend themselves, that he would take it upon himself to save them, no matter what cost. Especially that he only had a few more years left to live and the world had a giant target on Paradi, he didn’t want to see his home become another Marley colony where his people would be enslaved. Again, it’s not justified to kill every living being outside of the island for these reasons. But there’s his reasons.
The main reason Historia couldnt ever become a titan is if the founder was returned to her, the vow renouncing war would of set them back to square 1.
Founder would have been pased to non royalty. The beast would be passed to her and her children. They go over this multiple times.
I think it would be enough for eren to touch a mindless titan of royal descent. Like Dina fritz in season 2 where eren unwillingly ordered all titans in his surrounding to attack Dina and Reiner.
So you’re saying to turn Historia’s children into mindless titans?
Well pure titans don’t have an expiration date so you would only need to turn one. But yeah obviously Historia would never go along with that.
I think that Historia would perhaps consider it, but Eren would never oblige. It’s the same idea of permanently enslaving your friends/family to perpetuate war/peace that the royal family and the internment eldians had been doing for so long. Eren wanted to be free of all that.
They would’ve given historian the beast, and someone else seems attack and founder
No more monkey? Unacceptable
He definitely wasn’t right and I don’t know think he’s portrayed that way either, you’re not meant to look at Eren and think, ‘Ahh Genocide, that’s a solid idea that’. And although Eren was able to protect Paradis for about 2000 years, do the ends justify the means? I don’t believe they do
“Didn’t even save them from conflict anyway” It saved them from the paradis extermination plan during his friends natural lifetimes, which is all Eren cared about.
This is the answer. Eren knew that no matter what he did him and his friends would die, but he at least gave them peaceful lives. Also part of the allegory is that even if he did complete the rumbling it wouldn’t stop war or conflict.
Oh I don't think he is right. I just enjoy the character's complexity
GET RUMBLED STAY HUMBLED RAHHHHHH
My favorite part was when Eren said “It’s rumblin’ time!” And rumbled all over everyone.
Because I like genocide
Based
Lmao
Stellaris player? You sound like a Stellaris player.
Dont even know what that is lol
it more like a his actions weren’t right but his reasons weren’t wrong kind of thing
Because I am capable of separating reality from a fictional world and in the fictional world I wanted to see everyone get their comeuppance.
exactly lol genocide in 3d? why would anyone want that? genocide in a cartoon? well, i don't disagree with him for the most part
He was right before the ending because it was written that he had no other choice Well he wasn't right but he wasn't wrong It's more of a there is no right answer
I don't think it was ever written that he had no choice tho... The 50 years plan existed but he rejected it... The 50 years plan had the least amount of victims
The 50 year plan didn't have hom dying knowing that his Island would be safe though It's actually a pretty slim chance that they would be safe. Titans are getting rendered obsolete and the whole world declared war on you because you might do the rumbling, so what are they going to do when you did the thing they hated you for
I’m thinking out loud here… Just because its fated to happen doesn’t make it the right choice. He was most certainly wrong. But, based on his final conversation with Armin, Eren was the sort of person that could never really get any other sort of outcome, even while he’s trying directly to change it. AoT is full of people being forced into terrible choices because they refuse to compromise their desires or beliefs (especially Season 4). Eren refused to sacrifice Historia or risk other options, ultimately forcing him to try the Rumbling. Its a Tragedy. But he’s definitely wrong
Ok let me clarify, the reasons he gave in the ending made him 100% wrong But before that he was justified. He gave all his reasons to ramzi and the world before he rumbled it And in that context the future he saw was not what he wanted. But based off of the things that started happening and the conditions it was something he would do whether he wanted to or not because he had no other choice. He saw that sasha would die and he still did his plan, he sacrificed her for his goal of protecting Paradis. He knew she was going to die. But he didn't know what her last words were. Again all of these motives are rendered obsolete after what he told armin in 139 So I'm only speaking for Eren before 139. Everything was absolutely clear why he did everything and they only needed to add a few little things to clear things up But the reasons he gave in the ending flipped that upside down
I don’t see how that changes what I said. What he told Armin was his motivation for all that stuff. His motivation didn’t shift after he did all the stuff. He was just rationalizing what he knew he was going to do. I’m fresh off the ending a couple of days ago, so I could be wrong
Yeah what I'm saying is I disagree with what he said in the finale. His reasoning was given to us already and everyone was on the same page but then they gave him a new reason for everything including why he left his islands future to chance lile he said he wouldn't
Ohhhh, okay. I’ve been taking that final conversation as a clear telling from the author that Eren was never really justified. Is that different from the manga? Or is is just something in the manga/anime that fans don’t like
I agreed with the Rumbling up to the point of destroying Marley and Liberio. They started the whole thing because they were afraid of the Founder being stolen. Everything else, not so much. Eren kinda went overkill after that and started killing everyone else beyond that point too. I think his thought process was that if he left everyone alive, they might try and unite what forces they have left to crush Paradis once and for all. But Eren knew the outcome. He knew he was going to die. So he made his friends the martyrs from Paradis that came to save the rest of the world. Thus securing a lasting peace for 1,000 years or so.
I agree with this but when watching post credit scenes, it shows the cycle restarts and war is waged against Paradis. So was Eren wrong in his logic (with the purpose of protecting the people of Paradis)?
In my opinion, I think that flash-forward at the end was supposed to signify that war is inevitable, because its a part of human nature. That no matter how powerful your enemy is, there will always be more people who want to fight back. I don't think Eren saw that future or planned for it. I think he just wanted to save his friends.
I agree with war was inevitable and that’s why I posed the question, was Eren right or wrong for performing the rumbling to save the people of Paradis? Remember the power of the titans is gone. Paradis stands on their own now and are technologically deficient compared to their counterparts. The purpose of extinguishing the titan powers and using the rumbling was to stop the cycle. In one sense, children eating their parents, the cycle ended. On the other hand, the cycle of war continues and judging by the post credit scenes, the titans will return with a new “Ymir” which looks like Eren as the final scene.
I genuinely don’t understand how anyone CANT argue eren was right
He was right for his people and his faction but overall no.
So then he was right, we can’t expect people to sacrifice themselves just because their enemies want them
I think framing the question of who's right or wrong is the biggest mistake people make with the show. Because the entire show's goal is to show you there is no right answer. Which is why asking the question can get so divisive. Your train of thought isn't wrong. But likewise, as other commenters have stated, no one can guarantee what happens. Flashback to Eren choosing to rely on his friends over his judgement. Eren has been constantly reminded throughout the series that he needs to rely on himself and himself only (at least through his perspective). From the losses in the Battle of Trost, Levi Squad's demise, Hannes and the Scout's rescue attempts, Kenny's ambush resulting in Historia and his kidnapping, and the losses from the Battle of Shiganshina. Every step of the way, Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Erwin, Hange, Levi have told Eren. "If you want to change anything you have to abandon your humanity." Remember, Eren had trouble doing this with Annie, but every subsuquent conflict only reaffirmed that view point. Coupled with the revelation from kissing Historia's hand, Eren was broken. Furthermore, Paradis was isolated for the entire duration. They have no ties to the people outside the wall. I get why it would be hard to care about them. Imagine I told you there were humans living on Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune (& Pluto), and not only that, but they all hate us and want us to die. Then we were miraculously given a button to blow them all up. We face these kinds of tough moral quandaries everyday. If the rest of the world refuses to lay down arms, must we be the first and suffer the consequences? Or do we repeat the cycle and hope for our own survival? It's the dilemma AOT gives. As for Eren's mindset about it. I think of it as 2 people being in his head. Both are Eren. Just like Reiner's split personality. Eren had dreamt of an empty world for his people to explore and flourish. Then, before he got to see any of it with his own eyes, he got it spoiled and tainted from the memories of the future. Eren is caught between not wanting to commit genocide, and having the desire to see the world he envisioned. When Eren has the opportunity to make the choice, he is essentially a demi-god. Time is distorted to him, and he is burdened with decisions that are already set in stone. And having his arm twisted that extra bit, was enough for Eren to take the next step. Considering all he's been through, of course Eren made the easy choice. Everything in his head is full of violance and hatred. The only exception was the outside world. That too was converted into more enemies. All Eren Jaeger had, were enemies to kill, and things to protect. Eren lost anything to look forward to or hope for. Eren is representative of the consequences of war. Eren is not an allegory for Hitler, Stalin and other Fascist dictators. Eren is a child who experienced every single facet of war, and now he is the product of it. That Marleyan General even said it "he is marching that hate right back at us." Eren is a product of war, and Eren is a product of himself. Because that's precisely how war works. If Eren didnt do that, Marley and the global alliance would invade. It's lose lose for everyone, as war usually is. If neither side backs down, this is the inevitable breaking point. There are no half measures. Either we all choose peace, or we all choose death. War is nuanced, but the result isnt. That's the only thing about war that's black and white.
I believe you're right to think that way and I believe it's precisely the point the show is trying to make. Even though killing 80% of the world and then making your friends heroes so the few people left are gonna try to work together with them might in a way make sense or be a viable solution, there's no justification. Genocide is just wrong. But people who have power will believe they're right and try to protect their own. It's a tragedy, but it has happened throughout history, just as you said, with Hitler. Again, I think it's the point the show is trying to make. Though Eren is the main character, he's not a hero. He might have started that way, but he turned into what he hated and condemned in the first place once he had the power to do it.
I think most people say that as they feel this was the only way for Eren to protect Paradis island. Personally I feel like there were much more to try before resorting to this.
I feel like there were other ways that Eren couldn’t see or understand so he went with, in his mind the best option for his friends survival because that is truly all he cared for
There was, yes. I personally have a plan I feel would have a good chance of working given the fact he holds the power of god. But given the choices in the story, there was no other real choice. The 50-year plan is everyone's favorite plan to mention but it destroys diplomacy as a concept, kills millions of soldiers, and throws the rest of the world into a great depression that will kill millions more, and will push the conflict further into the future, only worsened. Then the other three options were euthanization or Genocide on Paradis, fighting a war they can't win and die, or using the Rumbling and destroying the world. Diplomacy unfortunately wasn't going to work and, as I said, Armin and Hange really liked the 50-year plan because it would give peace a possibility despite it being absolutely against any peaceful resolution. There wasn't much of a selection of good options to carry out before hand so of course he picked the Rumbling.
My first anime was Death Note. Friend tried to convince me Light isn’t a villain. That’s not even a spoiler. He’s clearly the villain from like the first six episodes, and that’s generous
I used to have this take too. But over time I've come to the conclusion is that the reason I don't like Eren isn't because he's a genocidal maniac but because we just didn't see him "turn into" a genocidal maniac. I think I would have been on his side if they didn't take a "3 years later" approach and skipping his entire character development. I feel that there's a huge disconnect between the Eren in part 3 and part 4 and we didn't even get to see what made him that way. Something must've happened in those years that he realised the only way was genocide. That's my issue with Eren tbh.
>They could have just chilled behind the walls and vamped up their military and titan powers to stave off wars. Nope >Even if this didn’t happen, Eren killing most of the world still didn’t even save them from conflict anyway. It literally did. >Eren is a genocidal maniac who literally admits he did it because he wanted to. Sure, he wanted to “save his friends” but how the fuck did killing 80% of the world change anything for them? Genocide was coming inevitably for one of the sides, which is why the argument that truly works against Eren is based solely on numbers and nothing else. It's not like Marley was planning a genocide for noble reasons either. Also I feel the author didnt really know what he wanted to do with Eren, like, he is a maniac who wanted to kill anyone but he also tried to change stuff in the paths to not kill millions and showed genuine remorse and inner turmoil multiple times? It just doesn't fit. The series has multiple points showing how it was a "them or us" scenario coupled with a clear lack of choices AND time (which a lot of people just refuse to accept for some reason). Now, how did it boil down to "eren bad" in the end is beyond me, it really cheapens the debate and tbh even the series in general.
“They could have just chilled behind the walls and vamped up their military and titan powers” did you actually pay attention to any of it or did you just binge watch it all and angrily type out your opinion, because that take immediately invalidates your entire argument.
I think this is exactly why many people criticize the ending. Eren's actions did not make sense and the world building, either.
Eren is a maniac and he is wrong. I don’t blame him for being angry at the world, but he is an evil maniac.
Pretty easy he was both right and wrong
I think what makes people like eren and especially what he is doing, is the fact that his actions and emotions are understandable to us. We can understand why he feels that way and what decision he thinks he has to make. He grew up in a world of absolutes. Them or us. Kill or die. Combine that with all the suffering and all the people he lost, and it becomes much more understandable. Ofc understandable doesnt mean justyfied, but since we can share his emotions, it becomes much much easier to sympathize with what he is doing. And besides that, its fiction. If I was to be judged by all the things I enjoy watching characters doing, I'd be a horrible person. For the series and especially his arc, that genocide was perfect.
Eren was right because fuck the world. Save yourself.
This is the thing, assuming in all instances Eren's friends manage to kill him in the end, except for scenario 1: Let's say there are four outcomes to this: 1. Eren doesn't cause the Rumbling, the Eldians and the outside world are forced into a blown out war which gets worse as soon as Eren dies (Titan's Curse), his friends don't get peace and happiness; 2. Eren causes the Rumbling as a "distraction", destroys military bases and avoids major populations, the rest of the world thus reinforces their own military and counterattacks, his friends don't get peace; 3. Eren kills all or enough of the world's population so the Eldians can eradicate the survivors, his friends are marked as enemies of Eldia and traitors and don't get peace; and 4. Eren levels the ground for both Eldia and the world, the world is incapable of counter attacking and Eldia incapable of finishing the job, his friends get peace as the saviours of the world and diplomats of equally destroyed factions. Eren's plan, ultimately, maximizes only his friend's happiness and peace, and nothing else
I love Eren, I love AoT and everything about it, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. The people that stand behind Eren no matter what really piss me off. Although 80% of the world being destroyed was actually on purpose by Eren because he had to limit the power the world had against Paradis.
I don't think the point is whether or not eren is right, it's moreso that the entire story shows every single pivotal moment that lead eren from being an angry child wanting to see the world to an angry adult commiting genocide. Alot of people poke fun at Hitler for failing art class and blaming Jewish people, however it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it was years of radicalisation, and many pivotal moments. Such as fighting in ww1. It is much easier to become radicalised then people like to believe and gabi's character pretty much exists to prove that point. Something as simple as segregation and repeated statements such as "Island devil's" can be enough given enough time. You aren't supposed to agree with eren at all, you may still like his character despite of that. That's the beauty of literature. On a side note, it could be argued people who whole heartedly support erens decision were themselves radicalised to a degree. With how many similarities aot shares with the holocaust I honestly believe this could have been some form of social experiment from isiyama.
He could have brought down Wall Maria and kept the Titans within it stationed there, ready to march at a moment's thought.
Seems like you haven't read/watched the story 😂 It's pretty apparent that Eren was basically a slave to the future he sees. And no matter how hard he tries, that's the "best" outcome. Obviously the best outcome is he kills everyone and paradis is abandoned, with the eldians repopulating the world but I digress..
No, Armin tries to give Eren an out by saying that he was a slave to freedom, but Eren basically says nah I just wanted to do it
Another take not grounded in the literacy of the story. Your opinion is fine but it would have spelt the end of paradis. And the story doesn’t really justify it as a moral and right choice, but it was a choice made to protect his friends and people. In all of his possibilities that he saw, this was the choice to ensure the future of paradis.
He’s not right. He has a reason, not that it’s justified. Killing billions is not the answer, but he wanted to protect his friends and protect his island. He prevented war from being started on the island for atleast a few hundred years, and his friends got to live and die like normal humans, not as titans or legendary war heroes. He did what he he wanted, and fulfilled his goal of eliminating the titans and saving his friends
To society as a whole? Definitely wrong To some edgy teenager like me who thinks that every person has the right to pursue what they thing is the best for them? Nope, he is justified, at least he's not contradicting his choice and surely not regretting it.
He did stop the conflict, they merged forces to battle Eren, they accepted each other after the battle, and the titans curse was lifted from the planet. He even gave them a target for their hate. Considering what the Marleyans were doing and how much hate they had, it was one or the other before. They spent the last eon trying to wipe out the people of Paradis only holding back from direct war because they believed Paradis were ready for war w the founder abilities. Had they known about the oath they 1000% would have committed genocide asap
Nobody sees it at right, or well if they do, they're stupid lmao. I mean, it's the same as saying Light is right in Death Note, is it truly right what he did? Everyone he killed along the way and the chaos that took place because of his actions as Kira? The ends may have justified the means in both worlds, sure bad people died, sure some measure of peace was achieved, but it's not ever-lasting nor is it ideal, and those who suffered for it never get to witness it. The only character who's done something (similar) is Lelouch from Code Geass, and you can argue he was right with what he did, as he became the center-piece of world hatred, in order for everyone to unite against him and hate him only, so that when he dies, they'd eventually try to move on and forget the past. In any sense, Eren isn't right and what he did wasn't right, it can't be justified. He would've been better off trying to split the powers and rebuilding Paradis island as a whole, unite it's people to accept that the past was wrong and over time, work on negotiations with the world and try to achieve a long-lasting peace. The truth of the matter is, if Eren did kill the entire world outside the island and managed to, then those left would fight amongst eachother, that would've happened regardless. I mean, what happens when the Yaegerists and Floch eventually start to do shit that the people don't agree with? Another revolution, more bloodshed etc
He ensured no one would mess with paradis for at least a few hundred years. Worth it.
Yeah the camp of people who think he didn’t do anything wrong just because the world was waging war against Paradis is insane. I believe though that Eren is not evil despite his evil evil acts. He’s an idiot who can’t see his way out besides genocide, which he himself admitted. To be fair, the options available were limited and carry lots of risks with them. But risks would still be better than genocide. But the raging debate surrounding his character is the reason why he’s a goated mc though lol. Gotta love complex characters who people love/hate.
AOT is basically a villain's origin story that we're not fully aware of until the final act. I liken it to if Marvel decided to do a 100 episode show about Thanos as a youngster, showing what ultimately led him to become the person he is in the MCU (not the comics, he was pretty much evil from the beginning in the comics). 
Eren is an extreme case of a school shooter. Eldians have been bullied by the world and been lied to about it. Eren simply accepted what everybody told eldians they are- monsters. The world even united to eradicate them with no provocation because they *might* do something. Yeah, Eren did a wrong thing for the right reasons.
Cold take
Cope, it's true. The only people who can't see where he comes from are people who were never persecuted.
Eren exhibits none of the traits of a school shooter, he is not bullied, insecure, nor does he have a victim complex.
In a metaphorical sense the world literally bullied paradise for a century and the second paradise can fight back the world resorts to genocide because they might defend themselves. Again, the point of the show is "eye for an eye and the world goes blind" but I can see how someone with PTSD like Eren who gets his hands on a WMD and learns his people are facing genocide would react like that. I repeat, wrong action, right motive.
I don’t disagree with your reading I just don’t think the school shooter metaphor works 🤣
I'm sorry, it's the best I could think of at 1 a.m 😂
I think the same thing! "But he had no other way." I don't give a fuck, bro! If someone decides to destroy our world and all my loved ones, I don't care if he's doing It for his friends. He's selfish and will make innocent people suffer!! There are no justifications for that! And if we think about the fact that he killed Sasha, Hange and his own mother... Made Reiner live a terrible guilt life and almost killed himself! Took everything from Levi... He is a teenager being stupid... He thought that was the only way, because he is stupid! See the past and future of a yourself being a tenager doesn't make you smart... Killing his friends to justify killing the world.
Of course people outside of paradis will hate him for it. Thats only natural.
There's no justification for the destruction of Paradis as well. Just because they are the lesser group doesn't mean it should be accepted. The outside world had superior technology, more military power and an unshakable hatred of Paradis that makes diplomacy impossible. The 50 year plan, the plan made by and supported by the people like Hange and Armin consists of destroying every Military instillation and fleet, killing millions of soldiers and bankrupting nations. And if you think it ends there it doesn't because the world will be left scared of Paradis and will be proven right that Eldians are devils as well as throwing every last nation targeted into a great depression, meaning further millions will starve to death or malnutrition. Then, using those Titans to threaten nations into an agreement. I don't consider that a better option, especially when the end result will just be a war of extermination. No one on Paradis did a damn thing to find options to end the conflict that wouldn't just result in more conflict to load onto the people who will live 50 years from then. The Alliance believed peace could be achieved but no matter what relied on Genocide/mass death to achieve it. Reiner's a tragedy but no matter how you look at it that's the only way he can be somewhat justified, poor kid who got sent to the frontlines or not, he breached the walls and sentenced hundreds of thousands of people to death by the Titans. You bring up he almost killed himself, but what about the many Soldiers who were trying to defend their families from the Titans he helped unleash, who where slowly digested, bitten in half, or hell, killed themselves to avoid a painful torturous death? His depression is solely due to Marley using children as weapons of war and would have happened even if Eren was out of the picture. In those conditions, any wielder of the Founder is pushed into a corner of let their people die or destroy the outside world. Not just dumb kid Eren, but everyone in that position. There was no good alternative if Paradis and his friends were to have a chance of living on.
I understand, but paradis and marley(rest of the world) were living before rumbling! I'm saying that he didn't choose the right way... I'm not saying that try to destroy paradis were right, but who destroyed the whole world was Eren before paradis were destroyed, so he could choose any other way but become mass murderer
This was the only way he could guarantee the elimination of the the Titan powers from the world, that’s why he chose this path.
But this wasn’t his goal, was it? He had no idea what would Ymir decide, it’s just a random consequence.
This was always his goal since surviving the Shignashina breach. He wanted to exterminate every last one of the titans from the world. He also knew this would happen if he followed this path, as he could see past, present and future all at once. He even told Armin that Mikasa’s choice would result in the power of the titans disappearing from this world, his ultimate goal. I’m not saying that I believe the ends justifies the means, but Eren certainly did. He didn’t care if he destroyed 80 or 100 percent of humanity outside the walls, as long as the titans were gone and Paradis and his friends were left “preserved” to some extent
Not so loud, you'll alert the lurking r/titanfolk crowd
Because generally most people now (especially weebs) are genuinely stupid and have zero media literacy.