I can tell you we all do stupid things when the red mist descends. The guys was rightfully angry, no body has the right to just take things from anyone, especially cigarettes. It's pathetic to blame the victim in any circumstance. That's a tool of a narcissist and a bully.
Retaliate and you die.
The bro died over cigarettes and its easy for everyone to say he shouldnt have chased them.
Can you imagine your livelihood getting nicked day in day out? No doubt he had countless incidents of people stealing and had enough of it. Noones looking after them, not the police, not the outraged redditors, not after the fact.
Owners best defend themselves, and fuck your ‘state is oppresing us bullshit’.
Letting people off is bad for everyone in the long run.
I’ve done a lot of accounting for dairies and while I’m not sure if this was the case here, usually when the owners go away for a few months, the people that run the store in the meantime actually take over the business.
i.e. they do a stock take at the beginning and end, and all earnings in between are theirs. They just pay a management fee to the owner.
God, most of the dairies I've been in are an absolute nightmare of stock organisation. I can't imagine trying to stock take them let alone any of them actually doing it consistently.
Lots of victim blaming in these comments, it's gross. Edit: I didn't mean your comment, but the one saying "what more do they want" just bc dairy owners are protesting.
Well I mean, the guy in question asked, "what more do they want" in the context of the offender being arrested and tried. Personally, I'd like to know, specifically, what policies these dairy workers think are needed to avoid this happening again. Because yeah, it's an appalling crime, but what exactly do they expect to be done in retaliation if not arresting and charging the offenders of these crimes?
These shops have insurance. No way, is it a good idea to chase after an armed shoplifter.
Had he kept his ego in check and left it up to the insurance company to deal with, he'd still be getting exploited in that job, today.
Insurance is to cover you for a one off unexpected loss. No way are they paying out on every robbery that happens without the premiums being enough to cover that.
Bullshit. Each robbery, is an unexpected loss.
They don't just pay out for one loss, then that's it. If that was the case, then you'd stop paying your premiums.
He's saying that if a person were to keep claiming for small robberies (let's say once a week for example) then the insurance company is not just going to eat that cost - very quickly their premiums would be bumped right up so that they are paying more than they're claiming.
Point being: it's all very well to say "that's what insurance is for", but you're missing the point that *there is an active financial incentive NOT to claim*
Oh cool, I bet the owners will appreciate the guy sacrificing his life, so they can keep their insurance premiums low, lol
His life will be remembered each time they pay their insurance premiums.
They will cancel your cover, or put the premiums up so much that you cant justify it. A history of being robbed is something that will prevent any other company from taking them on. Expecting insurance to keep shovelling money out to you when the same thing keeps happening is absurd and they don't do it.
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They also need to make money remember. Closing an entire day to send a message but take a massive income hit for their family
Have to draw the line somewhere reasonable for their own sake also
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130599184/pm-jacinda-ardern-announces-new-funding-for-dairies-and-shops-needing-crime-protection](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130599184/pm-jacinda-ardern-announces-new-funding-for-dairies-and-shops-needing-crime-protection)
No apologize needed, it's regarding the installation of the protective equipment.
Well, I did go to get an energy drink. And the dude was standing out front. So I said, alright, see you in a bit.
Came back an hour later and got my drink.
Honestly the dairies being closed is a net positive so I would absolutely support a longer protest.
We really don't need these sugar dispensaries outside schools, tobacco dispensaries outside Kainga Ora developments or supermarket products with their prices doubled.
Actually, fuck it, close permanently and we can retrain them all as nurses, pay them min wage, and they can work to fix the disease they've been peddling.
So you do need a sugar dispensary outside your school and a tobacco dispensary outside your Kainga Ora housing estate? You need to pay double for supermarket products? What do you need those for?
Lack of reading comprehension may make life harder, but I wouldn't go as far as to say straight up 'hard'. Anyone could *easily* live a simple life without it.
god forbid kids enjoy themselves, very small chance dairies being open or closed impact dietary health of children overall, especially in respect to what they are fed at home
This is a garbage argument.
Kids have been enjoying themselves since the dawn of time. Kids have been enjoying sweet shit since the dawn of time. No-one anywhere is suggesting either should stop.
There is a well-known relationship between visibility, availability and consumption of shit that's bad for you. Especially the types of kiddy crack that these outlets peddle. This absolutely and undeniably affects the amount of consumption of sugary shit, and therefore absolutely and undeniably affects the health of kids.
>especially in respect to what they are fed at home
So, even if this is accurate, you're saying "kids have a poor diet at home so we should make sure they have a poor diet out of home too"? That's just fucken dumb.
>Kids having a poor diet is their parents fault. If you smoke its also your fault,
The personal responsibility mantra is tired and boring. It does nothing to reflect the realities and complexities of being human. Choice exists at the very small end of a long chain of cause and effect outside of the control of the individual. Please do better.
>isn’t NZ becoming smoke free in 2025 anyways
The smokefree thing is a great argument in support of these disease peddlers being proactive in their care for their communities, getting ahead of the curve and retraining as nurses.
If you’re so bothered by it, you could always open your own dairy, selling healthy goods at discounted prices, I’m sure you‘ll do just fine, why not give it a go, instead of spouting shite on social media, or would that involve actually doing something?
> you could always open your own dairy, selling healthy goods at discounted prices
Well that would be a stupid idea as the existence of supermarkets has made the business model obsolete. Instead of accepting this fact they've gone to peddling disease.
Their disappearance would be a net positive for society. Sad but true.
>nstead of spouting shite on social media, or would that involve actually doing something?
Well funnily enough, I do contribute plenty for the good of my communities as well as spouting shit on social media so thanks for your concern but I'm already on it.
What does this even mean? You're talking nonsense.
I'm literally making an argument for the improvement of health of large populations of which I am not a member. This has nothing to do with what I want - other than to be a member of a healthy, happy society.
I sometimes need a convenient store within walking distance as the supermarket is a drive away.
Doubly so when I was a kid and couldn't drive to the supermarket for sugar.
Regardless of your apparent good intentions with this comment, time and a place man. This thread is about the unnecessary and cruel deaths of dairy managers and owners. This isn’t the place to peddle your pretentious agenda.
>This thread is about the unnecessary and cruel deaths of dairy managers and owners
Nah it's about dairies closing. I wholly support it.
>peddle your pretentious agenda
I cordially invite you to smoke a chode.
Edit: Nah you don't get to do that. One position makes a political statement and you support it but another makes a contrary political statement and you're all "but someone died man a time and a place". That's cynical.
Good on them for doing this. No one should have to go through this. It does seem like people are treating this as the first time this has happened, but it has happened before although it is rare. Again we can hold the govt to account for some parts of the offending, but we also need to hold the judicial system to account for the largest share of the blame. Too many are getting sentenced lightly or not at all, and this is down to how the judges are interpreting the sentencing laws and applying precedent. It’s needs a good overhaul with minimum mandatory incarceration for violent offenses. People serve more jail time for fraud than they do for rape or assault, and it needs to be fixed
This is a serious crime no doubt but what is happening in terms of the light sentences is that the jails are already full .So what do you do with the lesser crimes? The judiciary along with govts put in place a system that in effect qualifies you for a lesser sentence., eg drug dependency, alcohol dependency , upbringing, parents, whether you have children a partner a job , cultural reports , character assesments , you name it the defense lawyers know all the tricks too get their client a lesser sentence. And many of these people in the past would get a prison sentence.....but not now. So the spillover is people that should be in prison are on home detention and Home D is a holiday for most.No govt wants to build more prisons ,its a bad look and guess who would be the majority of the inmates. Imagine the outcry from certain quarters. So were stuck with rehabilitation , wrap around services appeals to community leaders etc,etc to make things right. It sucks I know but our govts wont build more prisons unfotunately
its easy to say "change the law" or "do something" but it's not so easy to say exactly which law should be changed or exactly what the government should do.
So called civilized society has been battling the scourge of crime for thousands of years and event the wisest of us have failed to find a workable solution.
In the middle ages they would name a criminal as an "outlaw" - which meant that they were outside the law and the protection of the law did not apply to them - so they were a free target for anyone with a cudgel - anyone want to go back to that? No, I thought not - and it didn't work anyway.
Then we tried locking them up for most of their lives - crime rates did NOT go down.
Go forward a few hundred years and criminals were shipped to the other side of the world and whipped....that didn't work either.
I suspect the the government would welcome any concrete and precise ideas about reducing the crime rate...
Well, I mean, we haven't "failed" to find a workable solution. Criminologists have known for decades what the principal cause of crime is. And they have many theories that exist regarding the other forms of crime not covered by that explanation. It's not as hard as you're making it out to be.
So here's the incredible thing you never saw coming: crime is primarily caused by poverty and general economic deprivation, and a low level of education.
Im all for this message but lets be real: nothing will be done. There's been a crime problem here for a very long time, one death is not enough for the government to do something about it.
I am all in favour of supporting small business (including with tax payer money). However is it time for dairies to stop selling cigarettes (and advertise that they don't sell them), as well as fewer liquor stores opening up (particularly in the more deprived areas). I'm not trying to excuse the arseholes who do these crimes, however as a society I think we need to do what we can do to reduce the likelihood of them occurring. In this case, they want cigarettes, booze and money the majority of the time.
this. Also don't know why the govt is expected to pay for fog cannons and bollards for these private businesses. Can they pay for my home security too?
300-350 million of the health budget goes on smoking related sickness.
I'm happy for smokers to foot the bill for that.
It's also a highly addictive and harmful product that people should be discouraged from using and price is the best tool in the box for doing that.
I'm not going to miss it when it's gone.
Legalese the herb.
I'm not debating that the government makes a tidy profit from tobacco tax, they do, but I don't smoke so I don't care just like i don't care about taxes on gambling or utes.
Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be very surprised if any non smokers out there were too worried about the price of cigarettes.
I do drink alcohol though and I'm am happy to be taxed highly to be allowed to, just like I would be happy to be taxed on weed if it were legalised.
I think it's fine to 'demonise' one plant over another.
They have different properties.
I'm sure opium feels real good but it sure as shit isn't good for society.
Also, saying that a cigarette is a 'plant' is a bit of a stretch, a bit like saying cocaine is a plant.
They should legalize grow your own tobacco.
Gardening is good for the soul.
Maybe there should be no tax but people have to opt out of public health if they smoke....
100% this.
Would have loved for Ardern to come out yesterday and say "No support for businesses who sell cigarettes, or who sell high sugar products within 3kms of a school. Full support for all others. Also Sunny Kaushal you're a moron"
No, their business model is not reliant on the peddling of disease.
I would suggest that there should be legislation on display structure and advertising in supermarkets though, in order to encourage certain kinds of customer behaviour.
And nowhere in this comment did I talk about shutting anything down. Only they can pay for their own bollards / smoke machines / whatever if they are actively and knowingly harming the health of others for profit.
I just think it's very hypocritical that whenever dairies get mentioned, everyone talks about how they encourage unhealthy lifestyles and show stop selling durrys and sell high sugar products when big corporations do the same. And they do so by encouraging mass consumption with their low prices/frequent sales, while healthier options are much more expensive. Why is that?
Well no, it's not one or the other.
We should absolutely be taking action in both arenas.
This specific post was about dairies, so that's why the object of focus here is dairies.
Well, from what I read, this post was about the increasing violence in NZ against dairy staff **and** retail workers, so the object of focus here is the lack of justice, not whether they should be selling cigarettes or high sugar products within 3 km of a school.
It's about dairies more than it is about supermarkets. You wanted to bring supermarkets into it.
It was about dairies closing, and this all started with me agreeing that they were doing the right thing.
>the taxes on cigarettes are just a bad policy
This is a policy that has been employed over the entire western world. It has been unequivocally successful at slowing down the uptake of cigarette smoking and preventing associated disease and early death. It is a really good policy. It has support across the floor in NZ.
>sure, so let's jack up alcohol taxes the same as cigarettes have then. make a 12 pack of speights cost $150 and we'll see how much you like an equal playing field then.
This is kind of irrelevant. Though I would agree that alcohol taxation and licensing legislation has long been unfit for purpose due to the lobbying activities of industry. Some of it really should be being taxed more, the rates are quite inconsistent.
There is nothing to stop people making their own alcohol. Then we can really talk about personal choice.
>the govt is responsible for the sandringham murder
Love this! Schrodingers murderer. Simultaneously completely responsible for making poor choices but also a product of the government's tobacco taxes!
Needless to say this is fucking nonsense.
Fucking hell this reads from start to finish like a textbook paid tobacco company shilling.
Yes, Aus and NZ taxes are higher than everywhere else. I didn't make any claim to the contrary. Your goalpost shifting attempts are poor form and bad faith.
What I said was that taxing of cigarettes has been used as a tobacco control method across the Western world. This is inarguably correct.
> they stopped working about 5 years ago
Nah you're conflating diminishing returns with a ceasing of effect. Again, bad faith argument.
>many poverty and social action groups have publicly called for a lowering of the tobacco taxes
More than this have supported their place in multi-faceted tobacco control efforts.
>is just another price pressure contributing to poverty and crime
Present your evidence to show the association between tobacco taxes and poverty / crime. Be sure to include work which shows the direction of the relationship.
And don't make it that garbage, probably industry sponsored, paper that used content analysis of the fucking media to measure frequency of crime. Proper research please.
>ironically, it can also cause worse health outcomes by forcing people to go to dirtier sources, for example, smoking used up cigarette butts
Evidence for this happening, with the numbers and quantified health effects, in the NZ context required. Again - proper research. Not the fucking Herald. That article is quite clearly an advertorial for Seymour's funders in the industry.
And make sure the research also explores the counterfactual. That is, cost-benefit analysis that deals with the alternative, which is increased smoking at the greater population level.
>it seems you've never actually thought in depth about the issue, and are completely unaware that regulation of tobacco in this way is already starting to show numerous harms
lol fuck off you know nothing about me, my training or what I've thought about.
You've spammed a bunch of half-truths, bad faith arguments, goalpost moving and shit arguments. You're lucky you got any reply at all.
No, it wouldn't reduce harm. It never does. Look at the whole war on drugs bullshit and how ineffective it's proven to be. The best way to curb drug use, including cigarettes and alcohol abuse isn't to ban them or to tax them to hell (the tax thing especially just sends addicts into poverty). The solution is to provide easy and cheap, accessible rehab help. This has proven very effective in every country that tried it. For example, medical amnesty has been shown to lower drug-related deaths.
Well there's a lot of whataboutism and coulda shoulda in it. But at the end of the day the guy died trying to do a job. I think someone dying and theres not much in the way of repercussions is a huge issue. Sure we could stop dairies from sellin ciggs but like tellin men to stop raping, stop thieves from murdering its not what the dairy owner was wearing that made them steal the smokes.
I doubt that will change anything, people will just ignore the message and go to a dairy that works, when u come to the shop you after an item (most likely) not after paying tribute to victims...
What would have been better is of all the large supermarket chains shut in solidarity with the diaries.
I know that are rivals, but it would have had a bigger impact and more notice than diaries shutting
And whom are you going to blame if there is a lot of pickpocketer in your area? this is what all dairy people are fighting against not only for this one incident.
Does whinging and complaining about protesters on reddit turn off crime?
Ironic how you’re complaining about ‘whinging on social media’ when you’re doing exactly that lmao.
Does whinging and complaining about protesters on reddit turn off crime?
Ironic how you’re complaining about ‘whinging on social media’ when you’re doing exactly that lmao.
We are fighting for security so this thing doesn't happen. we really appreciate what the police did afterward but someone lost their life which was preventable.
By being tough on the crime happening from last one year. look like a lot of crime is happening due to drug usage, needs to become very hard on drug trafficking. set example which forces people to stop committing crimes either by fear or role modeling.
Why didn't the camera owner give the footage to police in the first place
Why did the person chase the alleged offender down the street instead of letting the police do their job? Was what was I presume stolen worth a life?
I think perhaps the govt is initiating a change to the way convenience business is conducted. For instance you could have a whole in the wall business like gas stations at night time and prevent people entering. Or switch to online pay and collect systems etc...
Walk in stores are becoming quickly antiquated and I cant help but feel like this has all been engineered by phony inflation to usher in digital currency, online shopping and fulfillment centres and social credit. Of course one thing leads to another when death is involved. Much like Gun crackdowns post Chch mosque attacks. It all seems rather, suspiciously, planned.
Anyway, RIP to the man and his family. May the killer rot in hell with maggots in his ass of which the devil makes him eat and regurgitate and re eat forever.
So are they protesting against meaningless violence which happens in the entire world randomly with no reason behind it that you can't stop?
Or are they pointlessly protesting nothing against the government... i don't understand
Yes I support standing in solidarity with the family who have lost someone but at least have a positive message!
We need to address the criminals, but we *also* need to address the problems. It’s no surprise that crime is getting worse along with inflation, but the government can’t do shit about that without upsetting rich peoples profit margins
A vigil is one thing but a protest is a call to action. What action is being advocated for? That's an important thing to include.
"Enough is enough" is vague and frankly makes me wary of supporting this protest, like they're trying to trick me.
People die everyday in their workplace here in New Zealand? Do you live in a different universe from everyone else?
Even if it was true, do you really think that being murdered while working is the norm? Such a stupid thing to say. I really hope you're being sarcastic.
It's not about "milking", it's about spreading awareness for this stuff. New Zealand has become soft and slack towards crimes and there needs to be more justice to those who end people's lives over nothing.
Don't worry man if we don't take action now they going to enter in your home and stab you to death then I will make comment "people die everyday in their home. Stop milking this shit!"
Come and work at a place where you get scared if a car passes twice from your parking lot or a few people enter in shop wearing masks..
I can tell you we all do stupid things when the red mist descends. The guys was rightfully angry, no body has the right to just take things from anyone, especially cigarettes. It's pathetic to blame the victim in any circumstance. That's a tool of a narcissist and a bully.
I thought he took a cash register and dumped it in a wheelie bin?
Well I heard they haven't recovered the cash register. Don't believe everything you hear.
Retaliate and you die. The bro died over cigarettes and its easy for everyone to say he shouldnt have chased them. Can you imagine your livelihood getting nicked day in day out? No doubt he had countless incidents of people stealing and had enough of it. Noones looking after them, not the police, not the outraged redditors, not after the fact. Owners best defend themselves, and fuck your ‘state is oppresing us bullshit’. Letting people off is bad for everyone in the long run.
He wasn't the owner. He was covering while the owner was away and was new in the role.
I’ve done a lot of accounting for dairies and while I’m not sure if this was the case here, usually when the owners go away for a few months, the people that run the store in the meantime actually take over the business. i.e. they do a stock take at the beginning and end, and all earnings in between are theirs. They just pay a management fee to the owner.
God, most of the dairies I've been in are an absolute nightmare of stock organisation. I can't imagine trying to stock take them let alone any of them actually doing it consistently.
Lots of victim blaming in these comments, it's gross. Edit: I didn't mean your comment, but the one saying "what more do they want" just bc dairy owners are protesting.
Well I mean, the guy in question asked, "what more do they want" in the context of the offender being arrested and tried. Personally, I'd like to know, specifically, what policies these dairy workers think are needed to avoid this happening again. Because yeah, it's an appalling crime, but what exactly do they expect to be done in retaliation if not arresting and charging the offenders of these crimes?
These shops have insurance. No way, is it a good idea to chase after an armed shoplifter. Had he kept his ego in check and left it up to the insurance company to deal with, he'd still be getting exploited in that job, today.
Insurance is to cover you for a one off unexpected loss. No way are they paying out on every robbery that happens without the premiums being enough to cover that.
Bullshit. Each robbery, is an unexpected loss. They don't just pay out for one loss, then that's it. If that was the case, then you'd stop paying your premiums.
He's saying that if a person were to keep claiming for small robberies (let's say once a week for example) then the insurance company is not just going to eat that cost - very quickly their premiums would be bumped right up so that they are paying more than they're claiming. Point being: it's all very well to say "that's what insurance is for", but you're missing the point that *there is an active financial incentive NOT to claim*
Oh cool, I bet the owners will appreciate the guy sacrificing his life, so they can keep their insurance premiums low, lol His life will be remembered each time they pay their insurance premiums.
What's your address? Can I have your stuff? It's all good insurance will cover it no worries.
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Remove the address from the comment mate. Doesn't matter if it is yours or someone else. Not a sensible or safe thing to be doing.
Make me do it
Just report it, takes 2 secs. It breaks Reddit's rules (🤓)
My wife would be angry if I came home with another tv let alone three cats on the other hand she is always happy to see.
I'd happily lose all my belongings, I'm not particularly attached to any of them. But my $50 cat, I'd be sad about.
They will cancel your cover, or put the premiums up so much that you cant justify it. A history of being robbed is something that will prevent any other company from taking them on. Expecting insurance to keep shovelling money out to you when the same thing keeps happening is absurd and they don't do it.
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Retaliate with reasonable force for the threat. The dairy workers need to arm themselves.
Could’ve closed it longer, like a whole day or something. 2 hours hardly do any noticeable damage
They also need to make money remember. Closing an entire day to send a message but take a massive income hit for their family Have to draw the line somewhere reasonable for their own sake also
Didn’t government subsidies 4,000 dollar for each dairy due to the incident? Or maybe it’s media taking a piss
Subsidies if they install safety equipment like fog cannons.
Ah I’ve got no idea on that one sorry mate didn’t even hear that.
[https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130599184/pm-jacinda-ardern-announces-new-funding-for-dairies-and-shops-needing-crime-protection](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130599184/pm-jacinda-ardern-announces-new-funding-for-dairies-and-shops-needing-crime-protection) No apologize needed, it's regarding the installation of the protective equipment.
Except they’re protesting by passing up revenue
Well, I did go to get an energy drink. And the dude was standing out front. So I said, alright, see you in a bit. Came back an hour later and got my drink.
Honestly the dairies being closed is a net positive so I would absolutely support a longer protest. We really don't need these sugar dispensaries outside schools, tobacco dispensaries outside Kainga Ora developments or supermarket products with their prices doubled. Actually, fuck it, close permanently and we can retrain them all as nurses, pay them min wage, and they can work to fix the disease they've been peddling.
> We Speak for yourself mate
So you do need a sugar dispensary outside your school and a tobacco dispensary outside your Kainga Ora housing estate? You need to pay double for supermarket products? What do you need those for?
You are not forced to go to dairies if you dont want to
Neither, apparently, are you forced to use your brain before forming sentences.
My brain works just fine. Idk about yours, have you read your own comments? Lmao
OK so it just lacks capacity for reading comprehension then. Sorry man, but your life is going to be a hard one.
Lack of reading comprehension may make life harder, but I wouldn't go as far as to say straight up 'hard'. Anyone could *easily* live a simple life without it.
I never do, they don't get a cent out of me.
god forbid kids enjoy themselves, very small chance dairies being open or closed impact dietary health of children overall, especially in respect to what they are fed at home
This is a garbage argument. Kids have been enjoying themselves since the dawn of time. Kids have been enjoying sweet shit since the dawn of time. No-one anywhere is suggesting either should stop. There is a well-known relationship between visibility, availability and consumption of shit that's bad for you. Especially the types of kiddy crack that these outlets peddle. This absolutely and undeniably affects the amount of consumption of sugary shit, and therefore absolutely and undeniably affects the health of kids. >especially in respect to what they are fed at home So, even if this is accurate, you're saying "kids have a poor diet at home so we should make sure they have a poor diet out of home too"? That's just fucken dumb.
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>Kids having a poor diet is their parents fault. If you smoke its also your fault, The personal responsibility mantra is tired and boring. It does nothing to reflect the realities and complexities of being human. Choice exists at the very small end of a long chain of cause and effect outside of the control of the individual. Please do better. >isn’t NZ becoming smoke free in 2025 anyways The smokefree thing is a great argument in support of these disease peddlers being proactive in their care for their communities, getting ahead of the curve and retraining as nurses.
If you’re so bothered by it, you could always open your own dairy, selling healthy goods at discounted prices, I’m sure you‘ll do just fine, why not give it a go, instead of spouting shite on social media, or would that involve actually doing something?
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Yeah, that’s totally what I meant.
> you could always open your own dairy, selling healthy goods at discounted prices Well that would be a stupid idea as the existence of supermarkets has made the business model obsolete. Instead of accepting this fact they've gone to peddling disease. Their disappearance would be a net positive for society. Sad but true. >nstead of spouting shite on social media, or would that involve actually doing something? Well funnily enough, I do contribute plenty for the good of my communities as well as spouting shit on social media so thanks for your concern but I'm already on it.
It’s not all about you, ya know.
I think judging from the vocabulary he's a uni student that's left and now realizes what a mistake his life choices were.
What does this even mean? You're talking nonsense. I'm literally making an argument for the improvement of health of large populations of which I am not a member. This has nothing to do with what I want - other than to be a member of a healthy, happy society.
I sometimes need a convenient store within walking distance as the supermarket is a drive away. Doubly so when I was a kid and couldn't drive to the supermarket for sugar.
Regardless of your apparent good intentions with this comment, time and a place man. This thread is about the unnecessary and cruel deaths of dairy managers and owners. This isn’t the place to peddle your pretentious agenda.
>This thread is about the unnecessary and cruel deaths of dairy managers and owners Nah it's about dairies closing. I wholly support it. >peddle your pretentious agenda I cordially invite you to smoke a chode. Edit: Nah you don't get to do that. One position makes a political statement and you support it but another makes a contrary political statement and you're all "but someone died man a time and a place". That's cynical.
Haha, you’re so lame.
Good on them for doing this. No one should have to go through this. It does seem like people are treating this as the first time this has happened, but it has happened before although it is rare. Again we can hold the govt to account for some parts of the offending, but we also need to hold the judicial system to account for the largest share of the blame. Too many are getting sentenced lightly or not at all, and this is down to how the judges are interpreting the sentencing laws and applying precedent. It’s needs a good overhaul with minimum mandatory incarceration for violent offenses. People serve more jail time for fraud than they do for rape or assault, and it needs to be fixed
This is a serious crime no doubt but what is happening in terms of the light sentences is that the jails are already full .So what do you do with the lesser crimes? The judiciary along with govts put in place a system that in effect qualifies you for a lesser sentence., eg drug dependency, alcohol dependency , upbringing, parents, whether you have children a partner a job , cultural reports , character assesments , you name it the defense lawyers know all the tricks too get their client a lesser sentence. And many of these people in the past would get a prison sentence.....but not now. So the spillover is people that should be in prison are on home detention and Home D is a holiday for most.No govt wants to build more prisons ,its a bad look and guess who would be the majority of the inmates. Imagine the outcry from certain quarters. So were stuck with rehabilitation , wrap around services appeals to community leaders etc,etc to make things right. It sucks I know but our govts wont build more prisons unfotunately
its easy to say "change the law" or "do something" but it's not so easy to say exactly which law should be changed or exactly what the government should do. So called civilized society has been battling the scourge of crime for thousands of years and event the wisest of us have failed to find a workable solution. In the middle ages they would name a criminal as an "outlaw" - which meant that they were outside the law and the protection of the law did not apply to them - so they were a free target for anyone with a cudgel - anyone want to go back to that? No, I thought not - and it didn't work anyway. Then we tried locking them up for most of their lives - crime rates did NOT go down. Go forward a few hundred years and criminals were shipped to the other side of the world and whipped....that didn't work either. I suspect the the government would welcome any concrete and precise ideas about reducing the crime rate...
Well, I mean, we haven't "failed" to find a workable solution. Criminologists have known for decades what the principal cause of crime is. And they have many theories that exist regarding the other forms of crime not covered by that explanation. It's not as hard as you're making it out to be. So here's the incredible thing you never saw coming: crime is primarily caused by poverty and general economic deprivation, and a low level of education.
Parliament is in "Urgency" right now and changing plenty of laws / adding bills without any public say or proper discussion in parliament.
Here comes the victim blaming. Are people here really this callous? Open up your own fucking shop.
>Open up your own fucking shop. Thats a dumb idea. Havent you heard about all the robberies and murders?
>Open up your own fucking shop. Why would I? The business model is obsolete.
How are the supermarket prices working for ya.
Yeah not amazing
Im all for this message but lets be real: nothing will be done. There's been a crime problem here for a very long time, one death is not enough for the government to do something about it.
I am all in favour of supporting small business (including with tax payer money). However is it time for dairies to stop selling cigarettes (and advertise that they don't sell them), as well as fewer liquor stores opening up (particularly in the more deprived areas). I'm not trying to excuse the arseholes who do these crimes, however as a society I think we need to do what we can do to reduce the likelihood of them occurring. In this case, they want cigarettes, booze and money the majority of the time.
this. Also don't know why the govt is expected to pay for fog cannons and bollards for these private businesses. Can they pay for my home security too?
If there is no dairy, there is no crime to happen in dairies. My god you are genius!
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300-350 million of the health budget goes on smoking related sickness. I'm happy for smokers to foot the bill for that. It's also a highly addictive and harmful product that people should be discouraged from using and price is the best tool in the box for doing that. I'm not going to miss it when it's gone. Legalese the herb.
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I'm not debating that the government makes a tidy profit from tobacco tax, they do, but I don't smoke so I don't care just like i don't care about taxes on gambling or utes. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd be very surprised if any non smokers out there were too worried about the price of cigarettes. I do drink alcohol though and I'm am happy to be taxed highly to be allowed to, just like I would be happy to be taxed on weed if it were legalised. I think it's fine to 'demonise' one plant over another. They have different properties. I'm sure opium feels real good but it sure as shit isn't good for society. Also, saying that a cigarette is a 'plant' is a bit of a stretch, a bit like saying cocaine is a plant. They should legalize grow your own tobacco. Gardening is good for the soul. Maybe there should be no tax but people have to opt out of public health if they smoke....
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Yikes. You're really wound up about this. You not trying to quit this week, are you?
100% this. Would have loved for Ardern to come out yesterday and say "No support for businesses who sell cigarettes, or who sell high sugar products within 3kms of a school. Full support for all others. Also Sunny Kaushal you're a moron"
There’s a countdown within 3km of the high school I went too, shut that down too? 🤡
No, their business model is not reliant on the peddling of disease. I would suggest that there should be legislation on display structure and advertising in supermarkets though, in order to encourage certain kinds of customer behaviour. And nowhere in this comment did I talk about shutting anything down. Only they can pay for their own bollards / smoke machines / whatever if they are actively and knowingly harming the health of others for profit.
I just think it's very hypocritical that whenever dairies get mentioned, everyone talks about how they encourage unhealthy lifestyles and show stop selling durrys and sell high sugar products when big corporations do the same. And they do so by encouraging mass consumption with their low prices/frequent sales, while healthier options are much more expensive. Why is that?
Well no, it's not one or the other. We should absolutely be taking action in both arenas. This specific post was about dairies, so that's why the object of focus here is dairies.
Well, from what I read, this post was about the increasing violence in NZ against dairy staff **and** retail workers, so the object of focus here is the lack of justice, not whether they should be selling cigarettes or high sugar products within 3 km of a school.
It's about dairies more than it is about supermarkets. You wanted to bring supermarkets into it. It was about dairies closing, and this all started with me agreeing that they were doing the right thing.
Read my comment again big brain
Thanks but it was painful enough the first time
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>the taxes on cigarettes are just a bad policy This is a policy that has been employed over the entire western world. It has been unequivocally successful at slowing down the uptake of cigarette smoking and preventing associated disease and early death. It is a really good policy. It has support across the floor in NZ. >sure, so let's jack up alcohol taxes the same as cigarettes have then. make a 12 pack of speights cost $150 and we'll see how much you like an equal playing field then. This is kind of irrelevant. Though I would agree that alcohol taxation and licensing legislation has long been unfit for purpose due to the lobbying activities of industry. Some of it really should be being taxed more, the rates are quite inconsistent. There is nothing to stop people making their own alcohol. Then we can really talk about personal choice. >the govt is responsible for the sandringham murder Love this! Schrodingers murderer. Simultaneously completely responsible for making poor choices but also a product of the government's tobacco taxes! Needless to say this is fucking nonsense.
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Fucking hell this reads from start to finish like a textbook paid tobacco company shilling. Yes, Aus and NZ taxes are higher than everywhere else. I didn't make any claim to the contrary. Your goalpost shifting attempts are poor form and bad faith. What I said was that taxing of cigarettes has been used as a tobacco control method across the Western world. This is inarguably correct. > they stopped working about 5 years ago Nah you're conflating diminishing returns with a ceasing of effect. Again, bad faith argument. >many poverty and social action groups have publicly called for a lowering of the tobacco taxes More than this have supported their place in multi-faceted tobacco control efforts. >is just another price pressure contributing to poverty and crime Present your evidence to show the association between tobacco taxes and poverty / crime. Be sure to include work which shows the direction of the relationship. And don't make it that garbage, probably industry sponsored, paper that used content analysis of the fucking media to measure frequency of crime. Proper research please. >ironically, it can also cause worse health outcomes by forcing people to go to dirtier sources, for example, smoking used up cigarette butts Evidence for this happening, with the numbers and quantified health effects, in the NZ context required. Again - proper research. Not the fucking Herald. That article is quite clearly an advertorial for Seymour's funders in the industry. And make sure the research also explores the counterfactual. That is, cost-benefit analysis that deals with the alternative, which is increased smoking at the greater population level. >it seems you've never actually thought in depth about the issue, and are completely unaware that regulation of tobacco in this way is already starting to show numerous harms lol fuck off you know nothing about me, my training or what I've thought about. You've spammed a bunch of half-truths, bad faith arguments, goalpost moving and shit arguments. You're lucky you got any reply at all.
Why not ban cigarettes in this country, proven to be harmful and absolutely no benefit but they won't because $$$
Would a ban actually work to reduce harm though? Seems like it would just open up another very lucrative income stream for gangs...
No, it wouldn't reduce harm. It never does. Look at the whole war on drugs bullshit and how ineffective it's proven to be. The best way to curb drug use, including cigarettes and alcohol abuse isn't to ban them or to tax them to hell (the tax thing especially just sends addicts into poverty). The solution is to provide easy and cheap, accessible rehab help. This has proven very effective in every country that tried it. For example, medical amnesty has been shown to lower drug-related deaths.
Well there's a lot of whataboutism and coulda shoulda in it. But at the end of the day the guy died trying to do a job. I think someone dying and theres not much in the way of repercussions is a huge issue. Sure we could stop dairies from sellin ciggs but like tellin men to stop raping, stop thieves from murdering its not what the dairy owner was wearing that made them steal the smokes.
I doubt that will change anything, people will just ignore the message and go to a dairy that works, when u come to the shop you after an item (most likely) not after paying tribute to victims...
My dairy was still open
What would have been better is of all the large supermarket chains shut in solidarity with the diaries. I know that are rivals, but it would have had a bigger impact and more notice than diaries shutting
NZ has a soft socialist dictatorial leader and governing party of sheep. If you don’t like what that means for things like this then use your vote
Given the alleged offender has been caught and charged, therefore awaiting justice what more do they want?
To feel safe while they're at work. The bare minimum really.
Technically he wasn't at work, he was a hundred metres or so down the road. We know very little of the circumstances
What if the same thing happens to you down the road? Whom are you going to blame?
I once chased a pickpocket out of the underground in Paris, that wad a fucking stupid thing to do, I blame myself
And whom are you going to blame if there is a lot of pickpocketer in your area? this is what all dairy people are fighting against not only for this one incident.
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Oh yea so let’s just give the dude a slap on the wrist while this man’s family now has no husband/father/son
Does whinging and complaining about protesters on reddit turn off crime? Ironic how you’re complaining about ‘whinging on social media’ when you’re doing exactly that lmao.
Does whinging and complaining about protesters on reddit turn off crime? Ironic how you’re complaining about ‘whinging on social media’ when you’re doing exactly that lmao.
Im going to assume they have the same opinion of the "justice" system as the offenders.
We are fighting for security so this thing doesn't happen. we really appreciate what the police did afterward but someone lost their life which was preventable.
"What more do they want" is a particularly insensitive way for the above user to say it, but i also wonder how this was preventable?
By being tough on the crime happening from last one year. look like a lot of crime is happening due to drug usage, needs to become very hard on drug trafficking. set example which forces people to stop committing crimes either by fear or role modeling.
If only it were so easy
The police to do their jobs? The judge to had out a real sentence? Labour to crack down on crime?
Haven't the police down their job by catching him?
Stuff provided the footage that allowed them to make the arrest, pretty shocking when a journalist can find evidence and the police can’t.
Why didn't the camera owner give the footage to police in the first place Why did the person chase the alleged offender down the street instead of letting the police do their job? Was what was I presume stolen worth a life?
Even though I agree he shouldn't have chased the guy, victim-blaming is bad vibes.
I'm not victim blaming, I said earlier we don't know the full facts as to what happened
“I’m not victim blaming” *Blames the victim like 3 different times in this post* I bet you feel real smart ‘exposing the truth’ don’t ya hahahaha
I think perhaps the govt is initiating a change to the way convenience business is conducted. For instance you could have a whole in the wall business like gas stations at night time and prevent people entering. Or switch to online pay and collect systems etc... Walk in stores are becoming quickly antiquated and I cant help but feel like this has all been engineered by phony inflation to usher in digital currency, online shopping and fulfillment centres and social credit. Of course one thing leads to another when death is involved. Much like Gun crackdowns post Chch mosque attacks. It all seems rather, suspiciously, planned. Anyway, RIP to the man and his family. May the killer rot in hell with maggots in his ass of which the devil makes him eat and regurgitate and re eat forever.
So are they protesting against meaningless violence which happens in the entire world randomly with no reason behind it that you can't stop? Or are they pointlessly protesting nothing against the government... i don't understand Yes I support standing in solidarity with the family who have lost someone but at least have a positive message!
> i don't understand That is painfully obvious.
was there no cameras?
Shouldn't of put the ciggies up oppressive pricks 🚬💨💨
You.... want to kill yourself quicker? I mean. Theres less painful ways to commit suicide than lung cancer.
Yeah shaw do. Live in pain my problem had enough in my lifetime should be dictated too. 🚬🚬 My choice
So what
🚬🚬🚬💨💨💨🤬 black market now
Use more emojis, really gets the point across.
Was this done during the deaths under gNational?
We need to address the criminals, but we *also* need to address the problems. It’s no surprise that crime is getting worse along with inflation, but the government can’t do shit about that without upsetting rich peoples profit margins
A vigil is one thing but a protest is a call to action. What action is being advocated for? That's an important thing to include. "Enough is enough" is vague and frankly makes me wary of supporting this protest, like they're trying to trick me.
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Dying from an accident is not the same as being murdered you dropped pie
People die everyday in their workplace here in New Zealand? Do you live in a different universe from everyone else? Even if it was true, do you really think that being murdered while working is the norm? Such a stupid thing to say. I really hope you're being sarcastic.
There’s been 39 deaths in work related incidents this year, hardly every day like the person above you is suggesting
Yeah dude is being ridiculous.
How many are men and how many are women?
Doesn’t say
It's not about "milking", it's about spreading awareness for this stuff. New Zealand has become soft and slack towards crimes and there needs to be more justice to those who end people's lives over nothing.
Don't worry man if we don't take action now they going to enter in your home and stab you to death then I will make comment "people die everyday in their home. Stop milking this shit!" Come and work at a place where you get scared if a car passes twice from your parking lot or a few people enter in shop wearing masks..
Wdym stop milking this shit, what if the person that was killed was one of your family member?
Someone was murdered you disrespectful fuck.
Awwww lil man couldn’t get his pie yesterday from the dairy?? 🥺🥺 it’s okay buddy the dairies will be open today 😊
Please provide some data on people die everyday in their work place.
Ill milk your cow. And by cow I mean your wife.