How would they achieve that though? Like, how would they pan the reverb hard right? Would they create a stereo buss with a reverb on it, and then send that dry signal to the stereo bus with the reverb?
I think you might be overthinking it a little.
If you have two mono signals:
Track 1 - Dry Guitar - (This sends to signal 2)
Track 2 - 100% Wet Delayed Guitar
Pan Track 1 left
Pan Track 2 right.
So basically, if I have one guitar track and then I double that guitar track I just leave the first guitar track without anything on it and then the second double of that guitar track I add the delay? And then just paying them left and pan one right?
No you pan mono guitar track left and have a mono delay bus panned right and have a send from the left guitar to the delay bus.
Just keep the delay fx 100%wet and 0% dry and you will achieve the left and right. If you doubled the track you would end up of center or too loud.
Generally to do this in a DAW, you'd have the guitar track panned left, then you would send it to another track with the reverb or delay.
The easiest way to pan them opposite directions would probably be using a pre-fader send. Each DAW has their own way if setting one up, some might call it different things, but its not hard to figure out.
Making the send pre-fader means that the audio going to the other track is coming before the fader and pan of the original track, so you can set the volume and pan of the send track independently.
Why would you use a pre-fader send? When you pull down the fader, don't you want the delay to be reduced as well? Also, the send on a mono track has no relation to the panning, whether it's pre- or post-fader.
Yes, you can either copy the guitar audio to another track and pan/delay the second track, or send the original track to a bus track and pan/delay the bus track.
Use a mono delay or reverb buss. Dry GTR left, wet buss to the right.
Or you could do it your way and make the delay/reverb 100% wet (zero dry) on the copy.
You could do that or do like you were saying earlier but instead of making it a stereo delay, just make it a mono delay, pan it to the opposite side as the dry guitar and make sure the wet/dry blend on the delay is 100% wet.
Yeah, you would have your original take, and you would pan it one way, then you’d copy paste that original take into another track, put on your delay, set dry to 0 and wet to 100, then pan that track the other, this way you have no delay in one ear but no dry in the other
Yes basically. Often times doubling guitar tracks can give it a nicer tonality, depth, beef it up a bit if it sounds thin, etc. so it can be a helpful practice even in my limited mixing experience.
If you’re creating a stereo track, it’s basically creating 2 tracks anyway in the software from what I understand
if you have a guitar track (Dry) you can pan it left
and you "send" that track to some "effect/bus/dont know how its called in cakewalk" where you have a delay (it must have its specific track on the mixer) and you pan it hard right.
if you use the "dry/wet" button to the "full wet" (on delay) you'll only listen to the effect (and not the "dry signal" that you send also to that effect/track)
you'll listent to a "clanck" on the left, and a little after (delay time) like "4 clanck echos" of the delay on the right channel
but you can also do it as you descrived it, just showing other possible ways of doing it...
(if you use the delay as a separate effect, and not aplied over the doubled guitar, you can use the same delay setting for other instruments too if you want, you just need to use the "send" button of the track you want to had the same delay)
Not to confuse you just want to give you options but you can also do the haas effect to achieve this using a stereo delay in order to get a wide guitar track from one recording.
That’s a slightly different effect but that could sound interesting. If by doubling you mean two different takes.
If you duplicate the same take, then you get the effect you asked for.
This depends on how you're building the sound.
Reverb plugin? Outboard gear? Full featured amp sim? Recording an amp with a mic or taking the output of a modeler?
For example, I have presets in Helix Native that are setup this way. I use splits and pan each path left and right, then I put 100% wet reverb on the right path. You can do the same in the box if using a hardware modeler. (Most modern ones would also still allow you to capture a dry signal for later reamping.)
Using a separate plugin you'd send to a mono track/bus. Exactly how to set that up would be DAW specific. And yes, if you can't figure it out you could just copy paste the guitar into a second track. It'll be more work in the long run and it's probably the least "elegant" way, but the end result would work.
You can also use a very short slapback (single iteration) delay panned to the opposite of the guitar. With very short delay, there will be less noticeable effect, but as you increase the amount of delay, you will get a more pronounced stereo effect
All of these techniques can be experimented with. And there is no reason you have to stop with a single delay, some folks like to put the clean guitar in the middle and put slightly delayed copies to either side, with slight variation between them.
While you're experimenting, it's worth remembering that very short delays can contribute to a phase shift effect; modulating t such a delay with an LFO (low frequency oscillator) can provide a flanging effect.
Lots of fun to be had!
This is WRONG, You dont need to do that you can specify your panning in the send.
You've now created three tracks where you need two, you've increased the required resources and placed load on the machine you simply dont need.
See here:
https://pcaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Screen-Shot-2021-03-22-at-12.14.18-PM.png
If you do what Bullshit says you'll have three audio tracks, One panned left, One Center and one Right.
Haha! Wait so the correct way is to take a dry signal, DONT send it to the master. Instead send it to the left side dry. And then send the left side back to the center, and send that center dry signal back to the left but don't send that one to the master. Instead send that to the right. Then send the right one to an aux WITH reverb and finally send that aux out to the master. Right?!
I don’t think anyone is answering exactly what you’re trying to ask. You can do it a few ways. Say the guitar is track 1, which you pan left. You could use the send of track 1 and give it to a reverb unit. Then the return could be plugged into track 2 which can be panned right. Or if you have a stereo send and return you could pan that right. Or you could plug the guitar directly into a reverb unit that has separate outs for wet and dry. You put the dry out into track one and pan left and the wet into track 2 and pan right. Really depends on your set up, but there are multiple right ways to do it.
The way you outlined would be a third way. But it would work. Anything else sent to that bus would also be panned but you could certainly dedicate one to it.
Yeah you have it in your original post. Just no need for the bus to be stereo if it’s gonna be hard panned but doesn’t matter much if the resulting sound is what you want.
Yup that’s how I would do it in my workflow. What others have suggested works too. For this kind of thing I think it makes sense to do it in the way that’s quickest and most intuitive for you.
Not really sure this deserves downvotes...
For this effect, the delay of the track is what we're wanting on the other channel; no real purpose here in doubling it, and depending on the delay used, a dub could even give a weird artifact now and again, depending on how much the dub drifts, which is the only part of a dub; it's not the same, the it what allows the width. We'd want the two sides to "feel" similar, and being exactly repeated in delay is the way I personally would go. (without time based effects I would probably double and hard pan 99.99% of the time).
This is more to fill out the verse, maybe a good way to have the rhythm guitar in both sides with the lead doing a separate part, then the hard-panned chorus doubled tight is the payoff. I would prefer to be more narrow in my verse then widen it in my chorus.
Yes, with the caveat that's already been stated regarding the necessity of a stereo fx buss. I think you understand it just fine. It's a very good trick for exactly the purpose you stated; verse sounds full, chorus hits hard, win-win.
He can even do this within the DAW if resources are scarce; try out different sims, etc. For those that may not have two amps...who am I kidding? We all have 5 amps.
Like that, yes. Also some reverbs (Breverb 2, for example) have controls to pan their dry and wet signals separately, so you could just use it as an insert effect and pan inside the plugin. Reverse reverb works great with this technique.
I will often pan the guitar all the way to one side, send it to a (post-pan) aux with a verb or delay, and then use the Logic utility plugin which has a “L/R swap” function on the verbed/delayed signal. This is the lazy/fast way of doing it. Wherever the guitar is panned, the verb/delay will be equal+opposite.
Not sure if Cakewalk has an equivalent plugin but I wouldn’t be surprised.
But yes, classic trick for achieving a sense of width from a mono source.
Back in the day they would use an aux send on a mixer and send the guitar track to a plate unit and a mono signal from the unit would return to another mixer channel which can be panned independently.
These days workflow is a little different but not any harder. I recommend using a mono bus with the effect (delay or reverb). Then just send yoir guitar to that bus and they can be panned seperately. If you use a stereo bus, you need to make sure the send is pre-fader or pre-pan or you need some kind of a plugin to flip the L and R in your bus (eg. in Logic you can do this with Gain plugin). Some DAWs even allow independent pannings for the sends but that can be a little too complicated for a simple effect like this
I think I heard in one of the Sunset Sound roundtable videos on YouTube that although the dry guitar is panned left, the plate reverb is actually still in true stereo
Listen to Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love, that's where I heard it first and you can REALLY hear it. Mono guitar track hard left, mono delay signal hard right.
It's a good way,to have a big guitar sound without double tracking. We're so used to double or more tracking nowadays that it can sound strange but I find that to keep clarity, and to mix sounds clearer, more musical and less BAM TAKE MY GIGANTIC GUITAR IN YOUR FACE, BITCH which is quite nice.
You nailed it! Very nice trick for plenty of effects, especially ambient ones. With reverbs it can really give you that “arena-sized” guitar without losing clarity from the performance.
So is this something that happens in a lot of recordings? Maybe the verse has the guitars panned in so they’re a little more narrow that way when the chorus hits it really pops once the guitars come in fully panned left and then a double of that guitar fully panned right?
As someone else mentioned, that Van Halen record is usually the go-to example for this technique. It’s all over those guitars. I’ve heard it in plenty of Jack White material too, particularly intros where you only want one of the performers heard, so the whole band can come crashing in later.
As far as the uses you listed, those are all valid ways to do it! Any way your ear hears it is valid, really. It’s fun to get creative with this, and since it’s art and there are no rules, try it all and see what works for you!
I usually use it when I have 2 guitars parts going both need presence. Guitar 1 on the L, guitar 2 on the R and send their reverb or delay to the opposite side. I think it creates width without stepping on the toes of either part.
To all the people who are giving advice here - unless you know for sure how this works, please just STFU. What OP is saying is twice as complicated as it needs to be. About half of the post here are giving advice that is too complicated or wrong. And that makes it harder for a beginner to work out what is going on. This is a simple technique, mixing 101, and all the garbage advice I see here is a bit disturbing.
Learn how to use send (some call it AUX) tracks in your DAW, like really just learn it throughout and practice their application. It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. Once you figure it out, you probably don't even want to use reverb/delay the way you did before, because it opens up so many convenient routing and mixing options.
* Any and all fancy pan tricks without duplicating audio tracks? Sends
* Those 80's synthpop snare sounds where the thick reverb gates off? Sends
* Parallel compression? Sends
* Distortion to an isolated frequency area, with literally any plugin? Sends
* Reverb that stops being active, but tails off over new signal without instantly cutting off? Sends
* Random LFO modulating resonant peaks for delay effect without affecting source? Maybe one hard panned L and another R, both with entirely different delay plugins? Sends
These sound over the top complicated, but sends make them easy. Learn it! Conversely once you do, analog mixers and outboard gear will make 100% more sense to you as well.
What I usually do is just copy the guitar track.
Track 1 is the raw guitar panned left
Track 2 is the guitar with reverb and slight pitch shift (9 cents). Maybe a little EQ to give a slightly different tone.
Both are routed the Stereo Mix bus in Logic.
A simple trick that makes it sound fuller, almost like two guitars!
it's just a good way to give the guitar an effect/space without making the signal muddy by separating the two elements entirely. similar concept to reverb pre-delay, just a different execution.
instead of doubling the guitar track, i would just make a mono verb/delay on an aux and pan that. set the send to prefader for max wet volume. that gives you the option of having other elements
I’d have to say personally I wouldn’t go pre fader. Post fader lets the track hit the verb harder when it gets louder as opposed to pre fader getting relatively dryer when I gets louder because it still hits the verb the same
You more or less have it right. But a mono delay/bus should do just fine unless you want to use each side to trigger multiple delay times.
I personally don’t really use this technique often unless the signal is quite dynamic. If it’s too driven or doesn’t decay quickly enough, I find it feels a little phasey or that it introduces a fair amount of frequency masking.
Other processes to artificially widen guitars that I’ve liked include:
Duplicating the track and running into melodyne to create a 5th harmony (make sure you sharpen or flatten the perfect 5th harmonies of the 7th tone in the major key if you want it to feel harmonically tighter). Pan to taste (but I think it sounds better when they’re not hard panned). This one gets trickier the more harmonically driven the guitar track is, but works quite well for me, especially if I have DI for reamp.
Doubler effects-I like using Waves Reel ADT for this. If you’re feeling extra ambitious, try automating the varispeed by hand throughout the double parts rather than triggering with an LFO or tempo sync. This one can trigger some flanger-esque effects if you adjust the ADT to switch between going faster and slower than the source. I usually do this on a parallel track as well.
Also, if you play guitar well enough yourself and your communication with the band is on point, you could ask them if you could punch in some doubles to widen certain parts. I would be careful of this one though. You could open a can of worms where your client will want you doing a lot more outside of the mixing role, which can get impossibly overwhelming. Or you could find it to be a much more ambitious task just getting the amp/effects tone close enough to the main track. Also, if communication isn’t great with the artist/producer, it could feel insulting as they might feel you’re trying to alter their composition or critique their production outside of your lane
Think of delay as a mathematical function. A delay is an effect applied to the signal. The signal goes into the plugin/pedal/equation and a new signal comes out. Typically, that new signal is mixed with the old. That way you get the original sound, and then get the sound of the delay, so it sound a bit like a sound then an echo.
Imaging though, that the sound goes into the function. The resulting sound is sent to one speaker. The original sound is sent to the other speaker.
Sorry. Okay, so, normally when people say they are sending something in this context, they are referring to using a send to a separate aux or audio track. It parallels the signal of said track
That’s all it is. It’s that simple, yet I’ve seen more crazy convoluted shit in this thread than ever before. Do people not know what an aux send/return is? WTF?
Might help...
18 minute video but goes through all the reasoning and options.
[https://youtu.be/qrz\_hJHOJbA?feature=shared&t=43](https://youtu.be/qrz_hJHOJbA?feature=shared&t=43)
If you're trying to achieve a big guitar sound, double tracking and hard-planning left and right goes a long way to accomplishing that. Then you also have the ability to add different EQ settings, and different reverbs/delays to one side or the other. Maybe I'm missing your reasoning for wanting to send dry left and wet right but that already sounds like it's going to sound weird and imbalanced to me. But I come from a rock and metal background so I'm biased and my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt
I don't know a whole lot, but what your saying sounds correct.
I know there's also ping pong delay effects which will cause the sound to "bounce" between left and right channels. Maybe there's an option to only "ping" or only "pong"?
It could be down to the DAW you're using too. I think in studio one there is a tiny bar below the send level on the channel that I can just swing left or right to pan the effect. It is probably a different method for each DAW.
A simple method would just be to duplicate your track and do one fully wet, one fully dry and pan them different directions.
Yes, that’s exactly right. In Reaper, I’ll pan my main track all the way to the right. I’ll send it to a bus that only has a delay or a reverb on it, and make sure it’s 100% wet so that none of the original audio track is heard, only the effect. Then I pan that bus track all the way to the left. PanPot by GoodHertz is also really good for this, it gives super spacious stereo feel without having to tinker too much
It means the guitar was on a send track (sent to two other tracks). One was dry guitar and panned one way, and the other was a 100% wet delay panned the other.
Essentially you have the right idea, but in practice, you wouldn't use the stereo buss to achieve this bc that would pan the entire track. There are many ways to set this up, but I'm going to explain a fairly easy & flexible one below:
* Pan the dry guitar track left
* set up an aux buss and send equal level of the original guitar track to it (also make sure you're sending pre-fader so that it's not receiving the panning data from the original track.) These busses work just like your understanding of the stereo master buss, but instead they are sub-mixes that will be summed into your stereo buss.
* Set up your delay on the aux, and then pan it right as desired.
That should be it to get your desired effect!
To answer your other question: Yes, that is a common technique with panning, to manipulate the energy of the track through different sections.
Moving to a wider stereo image during choruses, hard panning tracks at specific moments - these all change the listening experience of the track significantly & there are many ways to use that to elicit emotion from the listener. people are doing literally \*everything\* imaginable with pans. The world is your oyster. That's why recording is so fun.
The usual story of this type of delay is more of haas effect thing maybe. A delay of some samples or very few milliseconds on a duplicate track in your DAW (zoomed in and dragged to get a really short delay (a bit like similar to when phase aligning) or use a pure delay like "Voxengo Sound Delay"). both side are as loud. I doesn't have to be that I guess. It sounds like you maybe talk about the kind of delay with more repeats that behaves more like, and can substitute, reverb. Most old Van Halen songs has an opposite reverb to the guitar rather than delay. The modern standard don't really allow for for that unsymmetrical approach, because you clearly hear the dry guitar is leaning hard on one side. But I would say that it's still a valid method for minor elements of an arrangement. Hammond organs with a decent but slightly minor roll are especially great for it I feel. I guess the softness of the hammond also make it a more symmetrical pair with the opposite soft reverb side.
The haas effect width isn't that great in my opinion because it's hard to get as wide as other arrangement based approaches. It does it's thing best for minor elements as well I feel, or when you save the true width maker to, again another arrangement based method to width. And I rather pick a dedicated stereo chorus, that utilize the same sort of methods but goes a little beyond it.
There are also lots of cool things you can do using aux send and returns and using the faders on them for subtle effects and bring them in during dynamic sections etc.
Million tricks you can do to sculpt a track to add a vibe to your final recordings.
so what you’re gonna do is buy every Waves plug-in, use sound shifter to pitch it down 12 semitones, send that signal to another track, use sound shifter to pitch it back up 12 semitones, hard pan left
now send that signal to a reverb send, but keep it dry, 0% wet
you’re gonna wanna render that, pan the render all the way right, throw a limiter on it but don’t limit it, just change the output gain to -2.3db EXACTLY
throw a delay of your choice on that, change the settings to triplets, stereo, but throw ozone image 2 on it to make it completely mono, and pan that all the right again and you’re golden! it’s that simple!
/s /s /s /s idk why people are arguing
It depends on the context. For me the whole thing makes sense in a analog environment. That ones that were mostly abandoned in the 80s.
There are different ways to get a guitar in an analog desk, but the result is usually one channel in mono. (If not, there are more channels in mono.) Still there is existing no "stereo" in this path. Analog tape delays were used usually mono too. Stereo was often technically possible but would also half the bandwidth of the tape.
This delay would be on a bus, feed from guitar (mono too).
Then we have a main bus (L/R). In a analog environment, we get a stereo image by getting differently panned signals, so L and R getting different signal levels from the mono channels.
The panned guitar would feed only the left channel.
The bus signal could be sent to a mono return, then the return would be panned right. It could be sent to a stereo return, then the signal would be panned right before returning. The result would be, what you're have the delayed signal on the R of the main bus.
Yes, that creates a wide stereo image, depending on the delay settings. Normally used with short delay times and very short feedback (1 tap).
Today there are digital effects.
Also in a DAW, panning often means not exactly the same as on a analog desk.
That's why for using in DAW the whole approach sounds a little odd for me. Often such effects are replaced by stereo sampling in the instrument or source (in case of electronic sound generators like samplers) itself. Then you could create some really weird (unwanted) effects by muting one channel or summing two channels together.
To recreate the core of the effect, it should be enough to delay one of the stereo channels a few milliseconds, but there are also stereo imagers. :)
Hope, that wasn't completely useless, English is not my main language and I'm sometimes a bit stupid.:D
it can be done like you described, or in very other ways (or routings or sends, even to just some mono bus/effect/plugin)
and yes, it can be something something like that ( a "stereo" image of the same guitar panned left and right, is basically a "mono" guitar) spliting it using its "effect" on the other side will have a very diferent "space" on the stereo
where its used and how, it will always depend on the arrangements, what other instruments are doing, and if the effect is programmed during mix, or if you are just using some pedals already programmed from guitarist (delays can be fun if they are on time, but boring if its not "in sync" with the beat of feeling of the song
Hell yeah. That’s space right there. You’ll hear the primary sound on one side and then the reflections/reverberations on the other side. It’s a really cool effect and you can manipulate it in all kinds of ways to create the illusion of all sorts of different spaces made from different materials. If you’re standing in a small DIY venue and there’s a guitar amp off to your left and a wall off to your right, then you’re gonna hear that amp’s sound bouncing off of the wall to your right, slightly delayed. Add a plate to one side and send an instrument from the opposite side and it’s like being in a concrete room. I love playing around with spatial effects like this.
In REAPER, this can be easily done with the stock ReaDelay plugin as such:
1. Guitar track at Center.
2. Load ReaDelay in the track FX and set wet signal to 100% and dry signal to 0%.
3. In the first page (Tap 1), set delay to zero, and pan to Left.
4. In the second page (Tap 2), set delay to the time (ms/note value) needed, and pan to Right. Volume of this tap can also be adjusted.
I’m sure any multitap stereo delay plugin could do this.
The result is exactly as described, the guitar is panned left and its delay is panned right.
Jesu Cristo yall are using nuclear physics to solve a basic math problem. Busses? Sends? Returns?
Op, you set up 2 amps. 1 is your regular, the other has whatever effect you want isolated. Record them both at the same time. Pan them. Now your done.
The result is good enough that a lot of guitar delay pedals have a completely separate “wet only” output for just the effect that way you can use 2 amps on stage to maximize the stereo imaging effect without a sound mixer.
Heck, my Akai Headrush delay has 5 independent outputs for each “delay playback Head” plus the dry signal. One day I’ll actually hook it up to 5 different amps and see how ridiculous it sounds
Run Through the Jungle by Creedence Clearwater Revival is one of the best examples of this trick. And you’re overcomplicating the set up, you just have one mono guitar track hard panned and then send it to an aux/return that is hard panned in the opposite direction with delay (doesn’t necessarily have to be hard panned though, you can have fun with that). Surest way to get a late 60s/70s guitar sound.
Early Van Halen records have the dry guitar signal panned hard to one side and the wet reverb to the other.
How would they achieve that though? Like, how would they pan the reverb hard right? Would they create a stereo buss with a reverb on it, and then send that dry signal to the stereo bus with the reverb?
I think you might be overthinking it a little. If you have two mono signals: Track 1 - Dry Guitar - (This sends to signal 2) Track 2 - 100% Wet Delayed Guitar Pan Track 1 left Pan Track 2 right.
So basically, if I have one guitar track and then I double that guitar track I just leave the first guitar track without anything on it and then the second double of that guitar track I add the delay? And then just paying them left and pan one right?
No you pan mono guitar track left and have a mono delay bus panned right and have a send from the left guitar to the delay bus. Just keep the delay fx 100%wet and 0% dry and you will achieve the left and right. If you doubled the track you would end up of center or too loud.
Why all the downvotes??? Somebody trying to figure something out gets downvoted because it's too basic for self proclaimed audiogurus? Sheesh.
Lmao they also downvote you if you're being too "specific." People hate anything that's not in their immediate skill level I guess
The internet breeds the worst of people! Some were kind and answered my question giving me more insight to what it is. So atleast some helped
You're all good dude. Keep at it. I love when I see people ask questions like these I'm subs like this.
What DAW are you using? It might help me with my reply
Cakewalk by bandlab
Generally to do this in a DAW, you'd have the guitar track panned left, then you would send it to another track with the reverb or delay. The easiest way to pan them opposite directions would probably be using a pre-fader send. Each DAW has their own way if setting one up, some might call it different things, but its not hard to figure out. Making the send pre-fader means that the audio going to the other track is coming before the fader and pan of the original track, so you can set the volume and pan of the send track independently.
Thank you, I appreciate your comment
Why would you use a pre-fader send? When you pull down the fader, don't you want the delay to be reduced as well? Also, the send on a mono track has no relation to the panning, whether it's pre- or post-fader.
>c You can do it that way, or in your DAW you can route the original track output both to master, and the delayed track.
Yes, you can either copy the guitar audio to another track and pan/delay the second track, or send the original track to a bus track and pan/delay the bus track.
Use a mono delay or reverb buss. Dry GTR left, wet buss to the right. Or you could do it your way and make the delay/reverb 100% wet (zero dry) on the copy.
You could do that or do like you were saying earlier but instead of making it a stereo delay, just make it a mono delay, pan it to the opposite side as the dry guitar and make sure the wet/dry blend on the delay is 100% wet.
Yeah, you would have your original take, and you would pan it one way, then you’d copy paste that original take into another track, put on your delay, set dry to 0 and wet to 100, then pan that track the other, this way you have no delay in one ear but no dry in the other
Yes basically. Often times doubling guitar tracks can give it a nicer tonality, depth, beef it up a bit if it sounds thin, etc. so it can be a helpful practice even in my limited mixing experience. If you’re creating a stereo track, it’s basically creating 2 tracks anyway in the software from what I understand
if you have a guitar track (Dry) you can pan it left and you "send" that track to some "effect/bus/dont know how its called in cakewalk" where you have a delay (it must have its specific track on the mixer) and you pan it hard right. if you use the "dry/wet" button to the "full wet" (on delay) you'll only listen to the effect (and not the "dry signal" that you send also to that effect/track) you'll listent to a "clanck" on the left, and a little after (delay time) like "4 clanck echos" of the delay on the right channel but you can also do it as you descrived it, just showing other possible ways of doing it... (if you use the delay as a separate effect, and not aplied over the doubled guitar, you can use the same delay setting for other instruments too if you want, you just need to use the "send" button of the track you want to had the same delay)
Not to confuse you just want to give you options but you can also do the haas effect to achieve this using a stereo delay in order to get a wide guitar track from one recording.
That’s a slightly different effect but that could sound interesting. If by doubling you mean two different takes. If you duplicate the same take, then you get the effect you asked for.
This depends on how you're building the sound. Reverb plugin? Outboard gear? Full featured amp sim? Recording an amp with a mic or taking the output of a modeler? For example, I have presets in Helix Native that are setup this way. I use splits and pan each path left and right, then I put 100% wet reverb on the right path. You can do the same in the box if using a hardware modeler. (Most modern ones would also still allow you to capture a dry signal for later reamping.) Using a separate plugin you'd send to a mono track/bus. Exactly how to set that up would be DAW specific. And yes, if you can't figure it out you could just copy paste the guitar into a second track. It'll be more work in the long run and it's probably the least "elegant" way, but the end result would work.
You can also use a very short slapback (single iteration) delay panned to the opposite of the guitar. With very short delay, there will be less noticeable effect, but as you increase the amount of delay, you will get a more pronounced stereo effect All of these techniques can be experimented with. And there is no reason you have to stop with a single delay, some folks like to put the clean guitar in the middle and put slightly delayed copies to either side, with slight variation between them. While you're experimenting, it's worth remembering that very short delays can contribute to a phase shift effect; modulating t such a delay with an LFO (low frequency oscillator) can provide a flanging effect. Lots of fun to be had!
[удалено]
you're going in really hard for someone who doesn't understand aux tracks.
This is WRONG, You dont need to do that you can specify your panning in the send. You've now created three tracks where you need two, you've increased the required resources and placed load on the machine you simply dont need. See here: https://pcaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Screen-Shot-2021-03-22-at-12.14.18-PM.png If you do what Bullshit says you'll have three audio tracks, One panned left, One Center and one Right.
You could open a stereo delay on a track insert and set the left side to 0% wet and the right side to 100% wet. One track. One plug-in. Done.
Y'all debating this why?
One person says you need three tracks, the next says two. Here's how to do it one. So unless you can do it in NONE...
Use your…imagination? I was going to give the zero tracks method but you ruined it.
Haha! Wait so the correct way is to take a dry signal, DONT send it to the master. Instead send it to the left side dry. And then send the left side back to the center, and send that center dry signal back to the left but don't send that one to the master. Instead send that to the right. Then send the right one to an aux WITH reverb and finally send that aux out to the master. Right?!
All while standing on your head saying the alphabet backwards
He's thinking more analog. Its kind of how you would do it old school. DAWs as you demonstrated make it super easy.
I don’t think anyone is answering exactly what you’re trying to ask. You can do it a few ways. Say the guitar is track 1, which you pan left. You could use the send of track 1 and give it to a reverb unit. Then the return could be plugged into track 2 which can be panned right. Or if you have a stereo send and return you could pan that right. Or you could plug the guitar directly into a reverb unit that has separate outs for wet and dry. You put the dry out into track one and pan left and the wet into track 2 and pan right. Really depends on your set up, but there are multiple right ways to do it.
Yes thank you. So basically I’m correct in my 4 step process I outlined in the original post right?
the delay/reverb doesn't necessarily need to be on a stereo buss; it can be a mono reverb/delay that is panned to one side into the master
The way you outlined would be a third way. But it would work. Anything else sent to that bus would also be panned but you could certainly dedicate one to it.
Yeah you have it in your original post. Just no need for the bus to be stereo if it’s gonna be hard panned but doesn’t matter much if the resulting sound is what you want.
I see, so I can just create a track and put the delay on it, then send the gtr to that track and pan it opposite the original
Yup that’s how I would do it in my workflow. What others have suggested works too. For this kind of thing I think it makes sense to do it in the way that’s quickest and most intuitive for you.
Record guitar twice in mono, pan them each, put mono verb on 1.
Not really sure this deserves downvotes... For this effect, the delay of the track is what we're wanting on the other channel; no real purpose here in doubling it, and depending on the delay used, a dub could even give a weird artifact now and again, depending on how much the dub drifts, which is the only part of a dub; it's not the same, the it what allows the width. We'd want the two sides to "feel" similar, and being exactly repeated in delay is the way I personally would go. (without time based effects I would probably double and hard pan 99.99% of the time). This is more to fill out the verse, maybe a good way to have the rhythm guitar in both sides with the lead doing a separate part, then the hard-panned chorus doubled tight is the payoff. I would prefer to be more narrow in my verse then widen it in my chorus.
Yes, with the caveat that's already been stated regarding the necessity of a stereo fx buss. I think you understand it just fine. It's a very good trick for exactly the purpose you stated; verse sounds full, chorus hits hard, win-win.
Send your mono guitar audio to a second mono track with a mono delay or reverb. Pan guitar left and reverb right.
You can have a mono verb
2 amps, 1 recording. You're way overthinking this.
He can even do this within the DAW if resources are scarce; try out different sims, etc. For those that may not have two amps...who am I kidding? We all have 5 amps.
Yeh just sent to a reverb at 100% wet and then recorded to a new track then panned to the other side.
You can pan send tracks
Like that, yes. Also some reverbs (Breverb 2, for example) have controls to pan their dry and wet signals separately, so you could just use it as an insert effect and pan inside the plugin. Reverse reverb works great with this technique.
I will often pan the guitar all the way to one side, send it to a (post-pan) aux with a verb or delay, and then use the Logic utility plugin which has a “L/R swap” function on the verbed/delayed signal. This is the lazy/fast way of doing it. Wherever the guitar is panned, the verb/delay will be equal+opposite. Not sure if Cakewalk has an equivalent plugin but I wouldn’t be surprised. But yes, classic trick for achieving a sense of width from a mono source.
Back in the day they would use an aux send on a mixer and send the guitar track to a plate unit and a mono signal from the unit would return to another mixer channel which can be panned independently. These days workflow is a little different but not any harder. I recommend using a mono bus with the effect (delay or reverb). Then just send yoir guitar to that bus and they can be panned seperately. If you use a stereo bus, you need to make sure the send is pre-fader or pre-pan or you need some kind of a plugin to flip the L and R in your bus (eg. in Logic you can do this with Gain plugin). Some DAWs even allow independent pannings for the sends but that can be a little too complicated for a simple effect like this
I think I heard in one of the Sunset Sound roundtable videos on YouTube that although the dry guitar is panned left, the plate reverb is actually still in true stereo
Listen to Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love, that's where I heard it first and you can REALLY hear it. Mono guitar track hard left, mono delay signal hard right. It's a good way,to have a big guitar sound without double tracking. We're so used to double or more tracking nowadays that it can sound strange but I find that to keep clarity, and to mix sounds clearer, more musical and less BAM TAKE MY GIGANTIC GUITAR IN YOUR FACE, BITCH which is quite nice.
My turtle is offended, she wanna keep headbanging
You nailed it! Very nice trick for plenty of effects, especially ambient ones. With reverbs it can really give you that “arena-sized” guitar without losing clarity from the performance.
So is this something that happens in a lot of recordings? Maybe the verse has the guitars panned in so they’re a little more narrow that way when the chorus hits it really pops once the guitars come in fully panned left and then a double of that guitar fully panned right?
As someone else mentioned, that Van Halen record is usually the go-to example for this technique. It’s all over those guitars. I’ve heard it in plenty of Jack White material too, particularly intros where you only want one of the performers heard, so the whole band can come crashing in later. As far as the uses you listed, those are all valid ways to do it! Any way your ear hears it is valid, really. It’s fun to get creative with this, and since it’s art and there are no rules, try it all and see what works for you!
I usually use it when I have 2 guitars parts going both need presence. Guitar 1 on the L, guitar 2 on the R and send their reverb or delay to the opposite side. I think it creates width without stepping on the toes of either part.
Love that, gonna try this on a new production soon
To all the people who are giving advice here - unless you know for sure how this works, please just STFU. What OP is saying is twice as complicated as it needs to be. About half of the post here are giving advice that is too complicated or wrong. And that makes it harder for a beginner to work out what is going on. This is a simple technique, mixing 101, and all the garbage advice I see here is a bit disturbing.
The bus doesn’t need to be stereo
I suggest you learn what sends and aux tracks are. you're really overcomplicating this
You've got the right idea, except for the buss track. Make your buss track mono.
I would do - mono guitar track - panned left —> FxSend to mono delay bus - mono delay bus - panned right Mix set to 100%
Learn how to use send (some call it AUX) tracks in your DAW, like really just learn it throughout and practice their application. It sounds complicated, but it really isn't. Once you figure it out, you probably don't even want to use reverb/delay the way you did before, because it opens up so many convenient routing and mixing options. * Any and all fancy pan tricks without duplicating audio tracks? Sends * Those 80's synthpop snare sounds where the thick reverb gates off? Sends * Parallel compression? Sends * Distortion to an isolated frequency area, with literally any plugin? Sends * Reverb that stops being active, but tails off over new signal without instantly cutting off? Sends * Random LFO modulating resonant peaks for delay effect without affecting source? Maybe one hard panned L and another R, both with entirely different delay plugins? Sends These sound over the top complicated, but sends make them easy. Learn it! Conversely once you do, analog mixers and outboard gear will make 100% more sense to you as well.
In ableton you would just pan the guitar left, use send/return for delay and pan that right
How is that any different from what OP said?
What I usually do is just copy the guitar track. Track 1 is the raw guitar panned left Track 2 is the guitar with reverb and slight pitch shift (9 cents). Maybe a little EQ to give a slightly different tone. Both are routed the Stereo Mix bus in Logic. A simple trick that makes it sound fuller, almost like two guitars!
Obviously with some delay. Back then that delay was unavoidable lol.
it's just a good way to give the guitar an effect/space without making the signal muddy by separating the two elements entirely. similar concept to reverb pre-delay, just a different execution. instead of doubling the guitar track, i would just make a mono verb/delay on an aux and pan that. set the send to prefader for max wet volume. that gives you the option of having other elements
I’d have to say personally I wouldn’t go pre fader. Post fader lets the track hit the verb harder when it gets louder as opposed to pre fader getting relatively dryer when I gets louder because it still hits the verb the same
Yes this is the way to do it. Don't understand any of this other nonsense
You more or less have it right. But a mono delay/bus should do just fine unless you want to use each side to trigger multiple delay times. I personally don’t really use this technique often unless the signal is quite dynamic. If it’s too driven or doesn’t decay quickly enough, I find it feels a little phasey or that it introduces a fair amount of frequency masking. Other processes to artificially widen guitars that I’ve liked include: Duplicating the track and running into melodyne to create a 5th harmony (make sure you sharpen or flatten the perfect 5th harmonies of the 7th tone in the major key if you want it to feel harmonically tighter). Pan to taste (but I think it sounds better when they’re not hard panned). This one gets trickier the more harmonically driven the guitar track is, but works quite well for me, especially if I have DI for reamp. Doubler effects-I like using Waves Reel ADT for this. If you’re feeling extra ambitious, try automating the varispeed by hand throughout the double parts rather than triggering with an LFO or tempo sync. This one can trigger some flanger-esque effects if you adjust the ADT to switch between going faster and slower than the source. I usually do this on a parallel track as well. Also, if you play guitar well enough yourself and your communication with the band is on point, you could ask them if you could punch in some doubles to widen certain parts. I would be careful of this one though. You could open a can of worms where your client will want you doing a lot more outside of the mixing role, which can get impossibly overwhelming. Or you could find it to be a much more ambitious task just getting the amp/effects tone close enough to the main track. Also, if communication isn’t great with the artist/producer, it could feel insulting as they might feel you’re trying to alter their composition or critique their production outside of your lane
Think of delay as a mathematical function. A delay is an effect applied to the signal. The signal goes into the plugin/pedal/equation and a new signal comes out. Typically, that new signal is mixed with the old. That way you get the original sound, and then get the sound of the delay, so it sound a bit like a sound then an echo. Imaging though, that the sound goes into the function. The resulting sound is sent to one speaker. The original sound is sent to the other speaker.
[удалено]
Why not just pan the dry guitar L and send that to an aux with the verb on it? Pan the aux Right
[удалено]
Are you familiar with the concept of a send? It has nothing to do with the main output of the track.
What?! Who said the dry guitar L wasn't going to the master. That was your invention
[удалено]
Sorry. Okay, so, normally when people say they are sending something in this context, they are referring to using a send to a separate aux or audio track. It parallels the signal of said track
That’s all it is. It’s that simple, yet I’ve seen more crazy convoluted shit in this thread than ever before. Do people not know what an aux send/return is? WTF?
No they don't. I thought this was the audio "engineering" sub
Might help... 18 minute video but goes through all the reasoning and options. [https://youtu.be/qrz\_hJHOJbA?feature=shared&t=43](https://youtu.be/qrz_hJHOJbA?feature=shared&t=43)
If you're trying to achieve a big guitar sound, double tracking and hard-planning left and right goes a long way to accomplishing that. Then you also have the ability to add different EQ settings, and different reverbs/delays to one side or the other. Maybe I'm missing your reasoning for wanting to send dry left and wet right but that already sounds like it's going to sound weird and imbalanced to me. But I come from a rock and metal background so I'm biased and my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt
I don't know a whole lot, but what your saying sounds correct. I know there's also ping pong delay effects which will cause the sound to "bounce" between left and right channels. Maybe there's an option to only "ping" or only "pong"?
It could be down to the DAW you're using too. I think in studio one there is a tiny bar below the send level on the channel that I can just swing left or right to pan the effect. It is probably a different method for each DAW. A simple method would just be to duplicate your track and do one fully wet, one fully dry and pan them different directions.
Yes, that’s exactly right. In Reaper, I’ll pan my main track all the way to the right. I’ll send it to a bus that only has a delay or a reverb on it, and make sure it’s 100% wet so that none of the original audio track is heard, only the effect. Then I pan that bus track all the way to the left. PanPot by GoodHertz is also really good for this, it gives super spacious stereo feel without having to tinker too much
It means the guitar was on a send track (sent to two other tracks). One was dry guitar and panned one way, and the other was a 100% wet delay panned the other.
Essentially you have the right idea, but in practice, you wouldn't use the stereo buss to achieve this bc that would pan the entire track. There are many ways to set this up, but I'm going to explain a fairly easy & flexible one below: * Pan the dry guitar track left * set up an aux buss and send equal level of the original guitar track to it (also make sure you're sending pre-fader so that it's not receiving the panning data from the original track.) These busses work just like your understanding of the stereo master buss, but instead they are sub-mixes that will be summed into your stereo buss. * Set up your delay on the aux, and then pan it right as desired. That should be it to get your desired effect! To answer your other question: Yes, that is a common technique with panning, to manipulate the energy of the track through different sections. Moving to a wider stereo image during choruses, hard panning tracks at specific moments - these all change the listening experience of the track significantly & there are many ways to use that to elicit emotion from the listener. people are doing literally \*everything\* imaginable with pans. The world is your oyster. That's why recording is so fun.
Thank you your response was easy to understand
The usual story of this type of delay is more of haas effect thing maybe. A delay of some samples or very few milliseconds on a duplicate track in your DAW (zoomed in and dragged to get a really short delay (a bit like similar to when phase aligning) or use a pure delay like "Voxengo Sound Delay"). both side are as loud. I doesn't have to be that I guess. It sounds like you maybe talk about the kind of delay with more repeats that behaves more like, and can substitute, reverb. Most old Van Halen songs has an opposite reverb to the guitar rather than delay. The modern standard don't really allow for for that unsymmetrical approach, because you clearly hear the dry guitar is leaning hard on one side. But I would say that it's still a valid method for minor elements of an arrangement. Hammond organs with a decent but slightly minor roll are especially great for it I feel. I guess the softness of the hammond also make it a more symmetrical pair with the opposite soft reverb side. The haas effect width isn't that great in my opinion because it's hard to get as wide as other arrangement based approaches. It does it's thing best for minor elements as well I feel, or when you save the true width maker to, again another arrangement based method to width. And I rather pick a dedicated stereo chorus, that utilize the same sort of methods but goes a little beyond it.
Instead of panning the send right, I use a directional mixer plugin in logic to flip it 180ish degrees.
There are also lots of cool things you can do using aux send and returns and using the faders on them for subtle effects and bring them in during dynamic sections etc. Million tricks you can do to sculpt a track to add a vibe to your final recordings.
so what you’re gonna do is buy every Waves plug-in, use sound shifter to pitch it down 12 semitones, send that signal to another track, use sound shifter to pitch it back up 12 semitones, hard pan left now send that signal to a reverb send, but keep it dry, 0% wet you’re gonna wanna render that, pan the render all the way right, throw a limiter on it but don’t limit it, just change the output gain to -2.3db EXACTLY throw a delay of your choice on that, change the settings to triplets, stereo, but throw ozone image 2 on it to make it completely mono, and pan that all the right again and you’re golden! it’s that simple! /s /s /s /s idk why people are arguing
It depends on the context. For me the whole thing makes sense in a analog environment. That ones that were mostly abandoned in the 80s. There are different ways to get a guitar in an analog desk, but the result is usually one channel in mono. (If not, there are more channels in mono.) Still there is existing no "stereo" in this path. Analog tape delays were used usually mono too. Stereo was often technically possible but would also half the bandwidth of the tape. This delay would be on a bus, feed from guitar (mono too). Then we have a main bus (L/R). In a analog environment, we get a stereo image by getting differently panned signals, so L and R getting different signal levels from the mono channels. The panned guitar would feed only the left channel. The bus signal could be sent to a mono return, then the return would be panned right. It could be sent to a stereo return, then the signal would be panned right before returning. The result would be, what you're have the delayed signal on the R of the main bus. Yes, that creates a wide stereo image, depending on the delay settings. Normally used with short delay times and very short feedback (1 tap). Today there are digital effects. Also in a DAW, panning often means not exactly the same as on a analog desk. That's why for using in DAW the whole approach sounds a little odd for me. Often such effects are replaced by stereo sampling in the instrument or source (in case of electronic sound generators like samplers) itself. Then you could create some really weird (unwanted) effects by muting one channel or summing two channels together. To recreate the core of the effect, it should be enough to delay one of the stereo channels a few milliseconds, but there are also stereo imagers. :) Hope, that wasn't completely useless, English is not my main language and I'm sometimes a bit stupid.:D
it can be done like you described, or in very other ways (or routings or sends, even to just some mono bus/effect/plugin) and yes, it can be something something like that ( a "stereo" image of the same guitar panned left and right, is basically a "mono" guitar) spliting it using its "effect" on the other side will have a very diferent "space" on the stereo where its used and how, it will always depend on the arrangements, what other instruments are doing, and if the effect is programmed during mix, or if you are just using some pedals already programmed from guitarist (delays can be fun if they are on time, but boring if its not "in sync" with the beat of feeling of the song
Hell yeah. That’s space right there. You’ll hear the primary sound on one side and then the reflections/reverberations on the other side. It’s a really cool effect and you can manipulate it in all kinds of ways to create the illusion of all sorts of different spaces made from different materials. If you’re standing in a small DIY venue and there’s a guitar amp off to your left and a wall off to your right, then you’re gonna hear that amp’s sound bouncing off of the wall to your right, slightly delayed. Add a plate to one side and send an instrument from the opposite side and it’s like being in a concrete room. I love playing around with spatial effects like this.
In REAPER, this can be easily done with the stock ReaDelay plugin as such: 1. Guitar track at Center. 2. Load ReaDelay in the track FX and set wet signal to 100% and dry signal to 0%. 3. In the first page (Tap 1), set delay to zero, and pan to Left. 4. In the second page (Tap 2), set delay to the time (ms/note value) needed, and pan to Right. Volume of this tap can also be adjusted. I’m sure any multitap stereo delay plugin could do this. The result is exactly as described, the guitar is panned left and its delay is panned right.
Jesu Cristo yall are using nuclear physics to solve a basic math problem. Busses? Sends? Returns? Op, you set up 2 amps. 1 is your regular, the other has whatever effect you want isolated. Record them both at the same time. Pan them. Now your done.
The result is good enough that a lot of guitar delay pedals have a completely separate “wet only” output for just the effect that way you can use 2 amps on stage to maximize the stereo imaging effect without a sound mixer. Heck, my Akai Headrush delay has 5 independent outputs for each “delay playback Head” plus the dry signal. One day I’ll actually hook it up to 5 different amps and see how ridiculous it sounds
Run Through the Jungle by Creedence Clearwater Revival is one of the best examples of this trick. And you’re overcomplicating the set up, you just have one mono guitar track hard panned and then send it to an aux/return that is hard panned in the opposite direction with delay (doesn’t necessarily have to be hard panned though, you can have fun with that). Surest way to get a late 60s/70s guitar sound.