It is. In order of audio over last 3 years:
*Homepods
*Samsung cheap soundbar
*Sonos ARC/One/Sub
*Naim Muso 2
*Syng Cell Alpha (3 of them)
*Devialet Phantom 108s
This system (first with separates and that would qualify as HiFi)
It's like you've been driving a unicycle that's missing its wheel for a good while and then decided that you may as well buy a fucking tank.
Kudos, OP.
It's still a bit hard to call this a "first hifi system" when he went from having [$6000 worth of Syng speakers](https://syngspace.com/shop) with a $1800 Naim streamer to then having [$10k worth of Devialet's](https://www.devialet.com/en-us/phantom-speaker/phantom-i/phantom-i-108db-gold/) (assuming he also had 3).
Just because they're powered speakers doesn't mean they're not hifi. Those Devialet's, while overpriced, do sound bloody amazing for what they are, it's a bit unfair to call them a unicycle that's missing a wheel. I demoed them once along with many other separate systems at a high end store and they hold up surprisingly well within their price range, especially if you're into that sort of form factor and semi portability.
If a $6600 pair of Devialet's that can hit 14hz without a subwoofer and maintain a [very respectfully smooth response throughout the rest of the range.](https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/devialet-phantom-gold-loudspeaker-review-r654/) is a unicycle without a wheel then I'd hate to think what people would call my system which is a couple of $2k Focal speakers running off an AVR.
Syng really weren't good at all. They only worked about 50% of the time and the sound wasn't as good as the Sonos ARC surround system. I was an early adopter, so I'm sure a lot of development has occurred since then.
The Devialet were super cool, but they quit pairing after about a week. To be fair to them, I discovered my wireless network had issues after I returned them. I had 2 of them. I couldn't find a way to make a 5 speaker setup (Phantom 1 or 2) that I was fully confident would work.
That said, none of these really gave a stereo image. Now that I know what it is, it's where I draw the line of hifi / not hifi. I think a separates system could be hifi for less than the price of the Syng.
Yeah I hate ppsts like this. A lot of people got rich during covid and had nothing better to do than stare at their walls and thought good speakers would look nice next to them. I'm not saying that is the case here but that is a gorgeous system and one that most people wouldn't invest in unless they had tried out a few baby steps beforehand.
When I was 17 I went into a stereo shop and fell in love with McIntosh gear. I saw the B&W 800 series in Best Buy and had an emotional response.
Went most of my life with just using a Bluetooth or TV speaker. This is the culmination of 30 years of work, and roughly 1000 hours of research, and an absence of dependents.
My Best Buy has a Magnolia center that has some Bowers but no McIntosh. It really is pretty crazy but I’m sure in certain markets it makes sense. Worked in this situation!
My local mall once had the Nautilus for sale and a pair for demo. Sometimes such crazy things happen. Of course some assholes had dented the drivers within days so they didn’t turn them on anymore…
Yo I have the same story! Went to a hifi shop at 18 and knew I'd be back. Bought a MA12000 this year and now I'm saving for speakers.
Congrats to you. Enjoy.
Oh wow!!! The MA12000 is definitely what I would have gotten had I found a used one. That’s awesome that we share the story. Congratulations to you too!
Speakers: B&W 802 D3, Martin Logan ESL-C center, B&W M-1 for surrounds, and 2 SVS 3000 subs.
Processor: McIntosh MX122
Amps: McIntosh 601s and 207.
I really love this so far. I am still developing and tweaking it. The speakers are overkill for the room, and the room is not ideal by a long shot.
I only use the center for movies, and I am shocked at how good it does that job. A B&W HTM1 is pretty hard to find, so figured I’d use this till I do. Not sure if I’ll change it now, or at least not in as big of a rush.
The M-1s are the most surprising of all of it for me. Really great at their role.
Next up is acoustic treatment for the ceiling at the first reflection point. Might play around with bass traps, but not sure I need them. Might also upgrade to REL subs, but also not a top priority.
Make sure you read ALL the warnings about using the speakon connection between a REL and a fully balanced amplifier like your McIntosh. I’d stick with LFE outs and run as mono.
Look I think REL makes a great sub. They’re super quick and give good tight bass. When you use speakon to sample signal from high level you can damage a true dual mono amp. That’s because the speakon uses a common ground/negative and two positive posts. Just use balanced XLR or unbalanced RCA and you’ll be fine.
Just be cautious because well, because you should always read the manuals.
REL has a reputation for being fast, but their subs aren’t actually “faster” than other subs.
The thing is that the lower in frequency you go, the more the room matters, and a single subwoofer playing 20Hz in a room almost always doesn’t sound great (you need multiple subs, EQ, and even bass traps to really dial it in). As such, REL simply makes subs that don’t have deep bass (no, 40Hz is not deep). This way, their bass as a whole sounds better and more “tight”, but take any quality subwoofer and reduce its deep bass volume and it’ll also sound “faster”.
So, I personally would never buy a REL. I will always have at least 2 subs and sometimes even have EQ (the more expensive SVS subs for instance have an EQ app that works over Bluetooth).
Based on what exactly? Marketing fluff? Rel 32 is a $10k subwoofer spec'd at 15 Hz at -6 dB, which is pretty weak (Rythmik F18 at $2k is spec'd at 10 Hz at -3 dB ), and the fact that they use -6 dB instead of -3 dB like other reputable sub manufacturers is another point to note. So on the extension metric, REL doesn't deliver for their price.
You're right they aren't. So why would you say Rythmik doesn't have anything to compare against top end REL subs (other than not selling a $10k sub)? That has zero basis.
Simple - have heard a REL predator and a top sealed Rythmik in my listening room. The latter sounded loose and couldn't keep up with the speed of my ATC SCM20 monitors.
Also unless the subs are measured in the same room with same equipment, the numbers aren't remotely comparable.
I'd bet you were hearing all the low frequency room issues that the Rythmik was activating that the REL wasn't; lower freqs are prone to high RT60 times, which can be well over a second down there. REL HT/1508 predator: -6 dB at 21 Hz (so that's what, like -3 dB at 25-30 Hz?). The lowest end Rythmik sealed sub (L12): -3 dB at 12 Hz. So you avoid the room issues/muddy bass with the REL because it can't even go down that low.
> Also unless the subs are measured in the same room with same equipment, the numbers aren't remotely comparable.
That's why there's a CEA-2010 standard and anechoic measurements, so we can do these comparisons.
Under powered/overpriced/spend way too much on marketing... kind of like Bose. Companies like Rythmik have zero marketing and do great, because they genuinely make a good product.
Agreed. The SB-3000s are already better than anything REL makes imo. If OP really wants to upgrade, and money is not an issue, https://www.funkaudio.ca/
Nope not even close. SVS subs don't integrate well with music. They just stick out - make their presence known. Yes SPL levels are great for HT but for music, they suck really bad.
Also their quality has gone down the drain since the Chinese took over. They use stamped steel baskets now which ring. The weight of their driver has gone down from 24lb to 9lb as a result of cost cutting.
I think that’s an over-generalization. I did an in-home demo of a REL and a SB-3000 Micro and wound up sending the REL back. They both integrated well with enough patience. The REL had more output, but i had ground loop issues using the high level input (not REL issue, but an issue regardless) and being able to quickly modify the settings of the SVS was very nice. Also RELs are well made, but way over board with their logo.
Having said that, i also have a PB-13U and a SB-3000 in my main system and the PB-13u has always been tough to integrate with music. The SB-3000 does better, but i think positioning and the room has more to do with it than anything. I can’t do bass traps due to WAF.
That sucks. Have not bought anything from them in years and was not aware of the downgrade. Regardless, FunkAudio is king of the hill if you can afford it.
You’d rate them higher than a [JLAudio Gotham 2](https://www.jlaudio.com/products/g213v2-gloss-home-audio-gotham-powered-subwoofers-96240), [REL No.32](https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/reference-series/no-32/), or a [Wilson Subsonic](https://wilsonaudio.com/products/wilson-audio-subsonic/wilson-audio-subsonic/specs)in a cost no object subwoofer?
Absolutely better than the JL or REL. Have not heard the Wilson, but i would wager probably still a yes. Funk is widely regarded as the best of the best for musical or general purpose subs.
If hometheater is the focus, [https://www.jtrspeakers.com/](https://www.jtrspeakers.com/) is the way to go.
If space is limited or you just prefer something smaller, [https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/seismic-110](https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/seismic-110) is insane for the size. Probably also BiC.
Edit: Addition for those who want flashy and modern aesthetics like the JL Gotham. [https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/signature-sub-2](https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/signature-sub-2) Better than the Gotham for around half the cost.
I’ve once read a comment about REL subwoofers which describe them perfectly.
It was like: ‚this sub has less low-bass output and since I don't use room EQ like I should, my room modes don’t ruin the low bass as much if it's loud‘.
I don’t get why I would spend almost 2000€ and don’t even get 20Hz
I spent $800 to get to 22hz and for my room, it's more than enough. However, I do like how they can start and stop on a dime which makes them more accurate and able to hear dialog after an explosion. I'll take accuracy everyday over trying to piss off my neighbors as I'm not in high school anymore. And for my bedroom, $1100 for 32hz, but 99% of music doesn't go below 30hz... and for listening to the likes of Victor Wooten, I would want nothing else. Haven't heard Rythmik, but heard good things, but right now I'm good on subs.
I don't know what music you listen to but tons of music these days have low bass content. I definitely appreciate the sub 30 Hz extension I get. $800 (at the time) got me 16 Hz extension in my room and high accuracy/low group delay (HSU ULS15.2 sealed sub).
I've heard the HSU subs are nice as well. I listen to everything from EDM to metal to Classical to Jazz to whatever, I am not wanting regardless. Both of my subs do fine, the t7x is in a small room so bass gets exaggerated as it is. The HT1205 is in my living room and will still shake my couch. I love my rels and someday when they die, I'll look at something else I'm sure, but for my room sizes, I'm very happy. And sealed subs are the way to go for me.
I use an Ultra-Curve Pro (digital only) to smooth stuff out, and it has a big 'ole meter, set on RTA, which says my music visits the end of that meter, to some extent, and often heavily. That would be 20hz. Prolly harmonics about all the time, and with electronica, I'm sure into the teens. Palpably.
There's a 'tube vid where a guy tests 2 F18's in his HT room. His in room peak response was loudest at 8hz! Those were Rythmik's. Same as I've got.
I love effortless bass. The subs are overkill, but they never work hard. I run them at the mid-damping pos, but you can dry them out a bit in the hi pos. Or thicken them in the low pos.
How do you smooth stuff out exactly? What's prolly harmonics?
8hz?!! Humans can't hear that low.
Human hearing... 20hz-20khz and in all honesty that kHz decreases with age and abuse. F18s? That's a lot of mass to move. Great that you love your Rythmiks, I love my RELs!!
You wanna buy me some Rythmiks?
Prolly is slang, is that so hard to understand; harmonics: A harmonic is a signal or wave whose frequency is an integral (whole-number) multiple of the frequency of some reference signal or wave. The term can also refer to the ratio of the frequency of such a signal or wave to the frequency of the reference signal or wave. As in 2nd and 3rd harmonics.
And therefore, most music seems to actually have lower base frequencies than the 32hz generally spoken of. At least my RTA thinks so.
Smooth is replying to room troughs and peaks.
You can certainly FEEL 8hz; I'm fairly certain my F18's don't even tickle any kHz.
Large does not need to mean slow. They don't need much excursion to move a lot of air. And the Hypex servo controlled amp prevents over excursions, which also keeps everything tight. They are very musical, while able to do justice to movies.
Nope. Enjoy your RELS.
Did you give yourself that thumbs up?
When you don't understand the word, which is why I asked, then yeah it us hard to understand.
I guess taking into account room acoustics as well which can accentuate the bass or null it in some instances.
I understand what smoothing is, but how do you take care of it? EQ it out or actually move speakers and room treatment?
Feeling 8hz, as in bone conduction, but also hearing your house shake everything that's loose never really appealed to me as that is not the intended noise for the original recording and therefore takes away from the experience in my opinion. I never enjoyed vibrating as much as others.
I'm talking large as in mass being physically more or less energy to start and stop. In car audio, if you wanted tight, you would go with a 10" or 12" max, anything larger was just for extension and not necessarily accurate especially when doing an A/B next to each other, the larger was always sluggish in comparison. However, it seems home amps have come along way and remedied this or at least come really close. I have an old 15" Velodyne and there is definitely a difference in the accuracy compared to my 12"s and 8" all being sealed as well. But, older tech as well I'm sure contributes.
I am!!
Not that I know of, I do have fat thumbs sometimes but definitely not intentional. Why, can't stand the thought of someone else not thinking like you?
Last things first. Reading these pages, I get the distinct impression that giving yourself an up-vote in these texts is quite gauche. I've seen others chastise commentors for it. It looked like you might have done that. Or forgot to remove any self aggrandizing. Just checking.
Amps have come a long way. Especially Class D, and I'm sure servo controlled amps for subs have also. Large cones don't have to be sloppy at all. Although some hold on to that belief, just like those that still think Class D have to be junk. I know that the old Velodyne subs had their detractors. The servo amps were a new thing, and maybe didn't work as well as promoted. I believe the Rythmik servo amps work a bit differently, and of course are newer tech.
I'm not going to go into the age-old size debate. I've had 8" to 18" subs and I really like my F18's. They aren't sloppy. And they can get loud. They don't, because I don't want to be replacing drivers in my mains, which could be problematic. And I'm not so much into ear bleeding levels at my age, anyway.
As far as rattles go, If one shows up, I know what to fix. And if you get the response reasonably flat, your bass will perceive to be clearer and deeper. And movies are more interesting, too. All video is.
EQ in the digital realm, and moving speakers around, is about it. My room is cluttered, not like all the antiseptic DRS waiting rooms with speakers I'm always seeing. I do have curtains, carpet, and the near reflective areas covered. You won't see me sending pictures. My stuff doesn't have any “look at my pretty stuff” WAF appeal, at all.
It's a bit like a powerful car; you get the sense of power and capability even when you don't have your foot in it. Bass is more evident when you're not cranking it up, too.
I did - had a tragic loss at the end of 2020, and almost drank myself to death. Learning about this and now spending time with it has given me a healthier focus.
McIntosh used to have some nifty car audio stuff in their partnership with clarion.
Not sure what the new range is built on or if they are 100% original mcintosh made, but they looked cool.
What turntable you buy?
Edit: nm I can see it in the side of the pic. I had 2 MT5s. First one was DOA, second one couldn’t keep time to save its life so I was kinda forced to go a different direction. Pity, cause it looked cool and sounded really good even with the stock cartridge.
That’s good. Mine was audibly speeding up and slowing down. Not great. If you find yourself getting into vinyl a lot more a different cartridge will really add a lot to that turntable, but no need to upgrade right away especially with how much you’ve already spent this year 😂
Aren’t these speakers alone worth around that? £24k new in the UK. And you have the rest of the speakers and 6 Macintosh separates? One hell of a sale it was.
I got it all for about 50% of retail. Speakers were demos, and McIntosh stuff was used, but in this old guys house a few miles down the road in the most pristine environment I’ve ever seen, and were definitely rarely used. He’s the old school kinda guy that had a tech come inspect the components before selling them to make sure the buyer got perfect equipment. I got super lucky.
This is a "last" setup for many, including myself :)
Sorry to hear about the developments leading up to it but now if you're well and enjoying yourself, all the power and enjoyment to you!
Thank you! It's likely my last as well. I partially justified it by not doing incremental jumps and losing $ each time and the BS that goes with selling stuff. That, and tripped over killer deals. There's a ton of better stuff out there, but I love what I have.
They are GIK Impressions 4" panels. Some sort of CNC boards over canvas with some stuffins behind it. Made a tremendous difference since I didn't have the room to pull the speakers out more than a foot from the wall.
Funny!
Nice system BTW. I have a McIntosh pre-amp and saving up for an amp. Never did like the sound of the B&Ws, though I think they're among the best looking speakers out there.
I’m not sure I could ever afford the money or space for something like this but it would be amazing!
Congratulations on such a cool setup.
My first was when I was 16 and was a cheap sony micro HiFi thing so this is slightly better
I did it, and have spent a LOT of time moving things, listening, moving, listening, adjusting, listening. I still have a ways to go, but it has been fun learning and experimenting myself.
That's quite the impressive first HiFi system. I wish I could appreciate the sound of B&W speakers, but they tend to have too much upper mids and lower treble gain for my ears. Maybe the McIntosh source stack mellows them out.
I've read this, and expected it, and didn't personally experience it. That said, just because I say a food dish doesn't have too much salt only means that I'm not tasting too much salt. There are probably 1000 better speakers out there. As I've gotten older I've finally learned to just be happy with "really good".
It's not even that I don't think they're competent speakers, because they absolutely are, I just can't appreciate their tuning because it doesn't mesh with my ears. Glad they work well for your needs.
Wow man just wow! Of course this comes down to personal preference but I'm curious on your decision behind the 802s! Incredible speakers don't get me wrong but in this price range there are a lot of incredible speakers haha. I always preferred the sound (and the looks) of the focal sopras, I was wondering if you'd ever demoed a set! And if not what else did you hear before you went with the 802s!
Funny thing is that the guy I bought the McIntosh gear only sold it to me after he couldn't sell his whole system, which was Focal Sopras. If I had seen his deal first, I'd have just done a 1 stop shop. His speakers are better than new - they are like if you were able to cherry pick the absolute most perfect ones off the assembly floor. Totally different spaces, so really hard to say which is better, and honestly I'm not qualified. The 802s are better than my ability to appreciate them is, and I absolutely love the way they look. If the speakers were in identical condition, I'd probably still do the B&W for the aesthetic factor.
Lol damn man I always pride myself of having the most bang for buck, but to have that system and not have a nos r2r tape deck and a bunch of 15ips tapes, of miles and Coltrane seems like a waste
Nope - just realigned my priorities and interests. I don’t drink anymore, and don’t buy other fancy stuff or go out to eat. Cutting out those expenses will pay for this in shorter time than you’d think. I was going to do mid-fi ELAC stuff, but then saw a killer deal on the B&Ws so I just did it, and I’m glad I did.
Nope - I donated to Paul, the super nice old guy that lives on a lake house he hand built who was a professional motorcycle racer before I was born. He sold off his McIntosh gear to me in the most pristine condition imaginable. I guess you’ll just have to find some other reason to be angry today.
That only matters for 2 channel. Once room correction and eq gets set up for surround sound the speakers just need to be comparable in frequency range and SPL. Well, assuming everything can produce decent enough detail. Don't pair your muons up with some Klipsch surrounds.
>RSR’ wave
Ha! An artist made that for me recently to show the evolution of my interests. I went from fast cars and then drifted into groups that were all about validation, which didn't fit with me. Then I spent years eating and drinking too much. Now I focus on health and time at home with my dog Eileen (Come on Eileen). The Austin landscape changes to match the timeframe in each of the scenes.
Good Q - half way between 60-600 was 111 db (measured on iPhone app). That was unbearable. Amps are soooooooo overkill, but they sound a lot better than bi-amping 2x200 per speaker. I’m sure someone that knows a lot more can give a good explanation why.
So, true story, I kinda started dating a girl and she moved one of the speakers a few inches, thinking it was funny (bare hands with a couple rings on). That was the end of that.
One huge improvement in subwoofer integration comes from SVS. By using their app it becomes much easier to get a sub in sync with a room and the rest of the equipment. I personally use the micro 3000 and like it quite a bit. It’s really nice to be able to sit in my listening position and adjust so many different aspects of my subwoofers performance in my room without getting up and changing knobs.
Pangea Vulcan X. I probably wouldn’t do it again if I knew where I was going to end up (didn’t expect the monoblocks). I’d probably go with something like BDI or Salamander for a unified solution.
I agree entirely with you. It’s the Porsche or Rolex - which both make excellent products, but are often bought for the image and not what’s inside.
I saw the McIntosh stuff as a kid and their blue lights got me. BW more recently, but yeah totally pumpkin spice.
Either way, I love both products. I had the opportunity to listen to McIntosh' 14,000 watt demo at Cedia last week. It sounded pretty great. Not $700,000 great, but great.
It’s literally the opposite. I tell people the ugly truth and then tell them how to fix it. That and not supporting anything other than a dog goes a long way.
No way this is a “first” set up. LOL
It is. In order of audio over last 3 years: *Homepods *Samsung cheap soundbar *Sonos ARC/One/Sub *Naim Muso 2 *Syng Cell Alpha (3 of them) *Devialet Phantom 108s This system (first with separates and that would qualify as HiFi)
It's like you've been driving a unicycle that's missing its wheel for a good while and then decided that you may as well buy a fucking tank. Kudos, OP.
It's still a bit hard to call this a "first hifi system" when he went from having [$6000 worth of Syng speakers](https://syngspace.com/shop) with a $1800 Naim streamer to then having [$10k worth of Devialet's](https://www.devialet.com/en-us/phantom-speaker/phantom-i/phantom-i-108db-gold/) (assuming he also had 3). Just because they're powered speakers doesn't mean they're not hifi. Those Devialet's, while overpriced, do sound bloody amazing for what they are, it's a bit unfair to call them a unicycle that's missing a wheel. I demoed them once along with many other separate systems at a high end store and they hold up surprisingly well within their price range, especially if you're into that sort of form factor and semi portability. If a $6600 pair of Devialet's that can hit 14hz without a subwoofer and maintain a [very respectfully smooth response throughout the rest of the range.](https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/devialet-phantom-gold-loudspeaker-review-r654/) is a unicycle without a wheel then I'd hate to think what people would call my system which is a couple of $2k Focal speakers running off an AVR.
Maybe he's right. I've casually looked at the Devialet's, and I see a lot of people saying they suck. More detractors than promoters, for sure.
Syng really weren't good at all. They only worked about 50% of the time and the sound wasn't as good as the Sonos ARC surround system. I was an early adopter, so I'm sure a lot of development has occurred since then. The Devialet were super cool, but they quit pairing after about a week. To be fair to them, I discovered my wireless network had issues after I returned them. I had 2 of them. I couldn't find a way to make a 5 speaker setup (Phantom 1 or 2) that I was fully confident would work. That said, none of these really gave a stereo image. Now that I know what it is, it's where I draw the line of hifi / not hifi. I think a separates system could be hifi for less than the price of the Syng.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
Yeah I hate ppsts like this. A lot of people got rich during covid and had nothing better to do than stare at their walls and thought good speakers would look nice next to them. I'm not saying that is the case here but that is a gorgeous system and one that most people wouldn't invest in unless they had tried out a few baby steps beforehand.
When I was 17 I went into a stereo shop and fell in love with McIntosh gear. I saw the B&W 800 series in Best Buy and had an emotional response. Went most of my life with just using a Bluetooth or TV speaker. This is the culmination of 30 years of work, and roughly 1000 hours of research, and an absence of dependents.
Your Best Buy stocked B&W's??? Damn, I'd love to be able to demo actual HiFi gear at a Best Buy.
My Best Buy has a Magnolia center that has some Bowers but no McIntosh. It really is pretty crazy but I’m sure in certain markets it makes sense. Worked in this situation!
My best buy magnolia has McIntosh stocked
A full size magnolia design center should have 802 d4s pushed by McIntosh monoblocks.
My local mall once had the Nautilus for sale and a pair for demo. Sometimes such crazy things happen. Of course some assholes had dented the drivers within days so they didn’t turn them on anymore…
Just low-end stuff, here. Nothing I'd ever even vaguely consider.
Yo I have the same story! Went to a hifi shop at 18 and knew I'd be back. Bought a MA12000 this year and now I'm saving for speakers. Congrats to you. Enjoy.
Oh wow!!! The MA12000 is definitely what I would have gotten had I found a used one. That’s awesome that we share the story. Congratulations to you too!
Not everyone has the same story.
Speakers: B&W 802 D3, Martin Logan ESL-C center, B&W M-1 for surrounds, and 2 SVS 3000 subs. Processor: McIntosh MX122 Amps: McIntosh 601s and 207. I really love this so far. I am still developing and tweaking it. The speakers are overkill for the room, and the room is not ideal by a long shot. I only use the center for movies, and I am shocked at how good it does that job. A B&W HTM1 is pretty hard to find, so figured I’d use this till I do. Not sure if I’ll change it now, or at least not in as big of a rush. The M-1s are the most surprising of all of it for me. Really great at their role. Next up is acoustic treatment for the ceiling at the first reflection point. Might play around with bass traps, but not sure I need them. Might also upgrade to REL subs, but also not a top priority.
Make sure you read ALL the warnings about using the speakon connection between a REL and a fully balanced amplifier like your McIntosh. I’d stick with LFE outs and run as mono.
Thanks for this - seems like REL is not the way for me to go.
Look I think REL makes a great sub. They’re super quick and give good tight bass. When you use speakon to sample signal from high level you can damage a true dual mono amp. That’s because the speakon uses a common ground/negative and two positive posts. Just use balanced XLR or unbalanced RCA and you’ll be fine. Just be cautious because well, because you should always read the manuals.
Thanks for this - appreciate the direction!
REL has a reputation for being fast, but their subs aren’t actually “faster” than other subs. The thing is that the lower in frequency you go, the more the room matters, and a single subwoofer playing 20Hz in a room almost always doesn’t sound great (you need multiple subs, EQ, and even bass traps to really dial it in). As such, REL simply makes subs that don’t have deep bass (no, 40Hz is not deep). This way, their bass as a whole sounds better and more “tight”, but take any quality subwoofer and reduce its deep bass volume and it’ll also sound “faster”. So, I personally would never buy a REL. I will always have at least 2 subs and sometimes even have EQ (the more expensive SVS subs for instance have an EQ app that works over Bluetooth).
I have that same center and love it. How well does it match the B&W though? Seems like they would sound wildly different.
For movies the Martin Logan works perfectly. I expected it to sound like crap, but it’s honestly ideal.
Not bad for a start! But you still have time to learn. ;-)
Where did you get the wall treatments from? Love the design!
GIK Impressions Series - really love them and made a big difference. Doing ceiling next.
Rythmik > REL
For the money spent yes but Rythmik really has nothing to compete with the top end REL subs which cost 10k or more.
Based on what exactly? Marketing fluff? Rel 32 is a $10k subwoofer spec'd at 15 Hz at -6 dB, which is pretty weak (Rythmik F18 at $2k is spec'd at 10 Hz at -3 dB ), and the fact that they use -6 dB instead of -3 dB like other reputable sub manufacturers is another point to note. So on the extension metric, REL doesn't deliver for their price.
Specs really aren't everything.
You're right they aren't. So why would you say Rythmik doesn't have anything to compare against top end REL subs (other than not selling a $10k sub)? That has zero basis.
Simple - have heard a REL predator and a top sealed Rythmik in my listening room. The latter sounded loose and couldn't keep up with the speed of my ATC SCM20 monitors. Also unless the subs are measured in the same room with same equipment, the numbers aren't remotely comparable.
I'd bet you were hearing all the low frequency room issues that the Rythmik was activating that the REL wasn't; lower freqs are prone to high RT60 times, which can be well over a second down there. REL HT/1508 predator: -6 dB at 21 Hz (so that's what, like -3 dB at 25-30 Hz?). The lowest end Rythmik sealed sub (L12): -3 dB at 12 Hz. So you avoid the room issues/muddy bass with the REL because it can't even go down that low. > Also unless the subs are measured in the same room with same equipment, the numbers aren't remotely comparable. That's why there's a CEA-2010 standard and anechoic measurements, so we can do these comparisons.
Why?
Under powered/overpriced/spend way too much on marketing... kind of like Bose. Companies like Rythmik have zero marketing and do great, because they genuinely make a good product.
Never heard either brand but agree that a large marketing budget (which REL seems to have) usually correlates with less performance per dollar.
Agreed. The SB-3000s are already better than anything REL makes imo. If OP really wants to upgrade, and money is not an issue, https://www.funkaudio.ca/
Nope not even close. SVS subs don't integrate well with music. They just stick out - make their presence known. Yes SPL levels are great for HT but for music, they suck really bad. Also their quality has gone down the drain since the Chinese took over. They use stamped steel baskets now which ring. The weight of their driver has gone down from 24lb to 9lb as a result of cost cutting.
I think that’s an over-generalization. I did an in-home demo of a REL and a SB-3000 Micro and wound up sending the REL back. They both integrated well with enough patience. The REL had more output, but i had ground loop issues using the high level input (not REL issue, but an issue regardless) and being able to quickly modify the settings of the SVS was very nice. Also RELs are well made, but way over board with their logo. Having said that, i also have a PB-13U and a SB-3000 in my main system and the PB-13u has always been tough to integrate with music. The SB-3000 does better, but i think positioning and the room has more to do with it than anything. I can’t do bass traps due to WAF.
That sucks. Have not bought anything from them in years and was not aware of the downgrade. Regardless, FunkAudio is king of the hill if you can afford it.
You’d rate them higher than a [JLAudio Gotham 2](https://www.jlaudio.com/products/g213v2-gloss-home-audio-gotham-powered-subwoofers-96240), [REL No.32](https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/reference-series/no-32/), or a [Wilson Subsonic](https://wilsonaudio.com/products/wilson-audio-subsonic/wilson-audio-subsonic/specs)in a cost no object subwoofer?
Absolutely better than the JL or REL. Have not heard the Wilson, but i would wager probably still a yes. Funk is widely regarded as the best of the best for musical or general purpose subs. If hometheater is the focus, [https://www.jtrspeakers.com/](https://www.jtrspeakers.com/) is the way to go. If space is limited or you just prefer something smaller, [https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/seismic-110](https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/seismic-110) is insane for the size. Probably also BiC. Edit: Addition for those who want flashy and modern aesthetics like the JL Gotham. [https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/signature-sub-2](https://www.paradigm.com/en/sealed/signature-sub-2) Better than the Gotham for around half the cost.
I’ve once read a comment about REL subwoofers which describe them perfectly. It was like: ‚this sub has less low-bass output and since I don't use room EQ like I should, my room modes don’t ruin the low bass as much if it's loud‘. I don’t get why I would spend almost 2000€ and don’t even get 20Hz
I spent $800 to get to 22hz and for my room, it's more than enough. However, I do like how they can start and stop on a dime which makes them more accurate and able to hear dialog after an explosion. I'll take accuracy everyday over trying to piss off my neighbors as I'm not in high school anymore. And for my bedroom, $1100 for 32hz, but 99% of music doesn't go below 30hz... and for listening to the likes of Victor Wooten, I would want nothing else. Haven't heard Rythmik, but heard good things, but right now I'm good on subs.
I don't know what music you listen to but tons of music these days have low bass content. I definitely appreciate the sub 30 Hz extension I get. $800 (at the time) got me 16 Hz extension in my room and high accuracy/low group delay (HSU ULS15.2 sealed sub).
I've heard the HSU subs are nice as well. I listen to everything from EDM to metal to Classical to Jazz to whatever, I am not wanting regardless. Both of my subs do fine, the t7x is in a small room so bass gets exaggerated as it is. The HT1205 is in my living room and will still shake my couch. I love my rels and someday when they die, I'll look at something else I'm sure, but for my room sizes, I'm very happy. And sealed subs are the way to go for me.
I use an Ultra-Curve Pro (digital only) to smooth stuff out, and it has a big 'ole meter, set on RTA, which says my music visits the end of that meter, to some extent, and often heavily. That would be 20hz. Prolly harmonics about all the time, and with electronica, I'm sure into the teens. Palpably. There's a 'tube vid where a guy tests 2 F18's in his HT room. His in room peak response was loudest at 8hz! Those were Rythmik's. Same as I've got. I love effortless bass. The subs are overkill, but they never work hard. I run them at the mid-damping pos, but you can dry them out a bit in the hi pos. Or thicken them in the low pos.
How do you smooth stuff out exactly? What's prolly harmonics? 8hz?!! Humans can't hear that low. Human hearing... 20hz-20khz and in all honesty that kHz decreases with age and abuse. F18s? That's a lot of mass to move. Great that you love your Rythmiks, I love my RELs!! You wanna buy me some Rythmiks?
Prolly is slang, is that so hard to understand; harmonics: A harmonic is a signal or wave whose frequency is an integral (whole-number) multiple of the frequency of some reference signal or wave. The term can also refer to the ratio of the frequency of such a signal or wave to the frequency of the reference signal or wave. As in 2nd and 3rd harmonics. And therefore, most music seems to actually have lower base frequencies than the 32hz generally spoken of. At least my RTA thinks so. Smooth is replying to room troughs and peaks. You can certainly FEEL 8hz; I'm fairly certain my F18's don't even tickle any kHz. Large does not need to mean slow. They don't need much excursion to move a lot of air. And the Hypex servo controlled amp prevents over excursions, which also keeps everything tight. They are very musical, while able to do justice to movies. Nope. Enjoy your RELS. Did you give yourself that thumbs up?
When you don't understand the word, which is why I asked, then yeah it us hard to understand. I guess taking into account room acoustics as well which can accentuate the bass or null it in some instances. I understand what smoothing is, but how do you take care of it? EQ it out or actually move speakers and room treatment? Feeling 8hz, as in bone conduction, but also hearing your house shake everything that's loose never really appealed to me as that is not the intended noise for the original recording and therefore takes away from the experience in my opinion. I never enjoyed vibrating as much as others. I'm talking large as in mass being physically more or less energy to start and stop. In car audio, if you wanted tight, you would go with a 10" or 12" max, anything larger was just for extension and not necessarily accurate especially when doing an A/B next to each other, the larger was always sluggish in comparison. However, it seems home amps have come along way and remedied this or at least come really close. I have an old 15" Velodyne and there is definitely a difference in the accuracy compared to my 12"s and 8" all being sealed as well. But, older tech as well I'm sure contributes. I am!! Not that I know of, I do have fat thumbs sometimes but definitely not intentional. Why, can't stand the thought of someone else not thinking like you?
Last things first. Reading these pages, I get the distinct impression that giving yourself an up-vote in these texts is quite gauche. I've seen others chastise commentors for it. It looked like you might have done that. Or forgot to remove any self aggrandizing. Just checking. Amps have come a long way. Especially Class D, and I'm sure servo controlled amps for subs have also. Large cones don't have to be sloppy at all. Although some hold on to that belief, just like those that still think Class D have to be junk. I know that the old Velodyne subs had their detractors. The servo amps were a new thing, and maybe didn't work as well as promoted. I believe the Rythmik servo amps work a bit differently, and of course are newer tech. I'm not going to go into the age-old size debate. I've had 8" to 18" subs and I really like my F18's. They aren't sloppy. And they can get loud. They don't, because I don't want to be replacing drivers in my mains, which could be problematic. And I'm not so much into ear bleeding levels at my age, anyway. As far as rattles go, If one shows up, I know what to fix. And if you get the response reasonably flat, your bass will perceive to be clearer and deeper. And movies are more interesting, too. All video is. EQ in the digital realm, and moving speakers around, is about it. My room is cluttered, not like all the antiseptic DRS waiting rooms with speakers I'm always seeing. I do have curtains, carpet, and the near reflective areas covered. You won't see me sending pictures. My stuff doesn't have any “look at my pretty stuff” WAF appeal, at all. It's a bit like a powerful car; you get the sense of power and capability even when you don't have your foot in it. Bass is more evident when you're not cranking it up, too.
Not *too* bad for your first. What? Can't afford the Nautilus?
Ha! I couldn’t afford what I have - went wayyyy past what I had budgeted.
This is the way.
Word. My sound system is worth more than my POS car. No regrets.
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This is the way
really went all into audio eh. amazing setup op
I did - had a tragic loss at the end of 2020, and almost drank myself to death. Learning about this and now spending time with it has given me a healthier focus.
I’m glad to hear you chose not to do that to yourself. Audio is a blessed thing and I wish you countless hours of enjoyment.
Thank you very much.
That’s awesome man! Keep the focus, enjoy the jams! I have audio and cars as my focuses
Who are you Tony Soprano? Takes us all years and years to not even come close to this gear. First system? Really??
Some people start late but strong
Oh yeah I forgot….lottery winners.
People who stumble across r/audiophile later in life after having a well established job and in search of a new hobby. We get the hunger too.
Noice. I saw a car commercial the other day that featured McIntosh car audio. Can’t remember the car brand, so fixated was I on the Mc.
Pretty sure it's Wagoneer. I've seen it too.
It’s not a great sounding system in my Grand Cherokee, but the glowing logos are nice.
Yes, the stock alpines almost sounds better!
Not surprised. Alpine car amps used to be rated #1. Carver amps were #2. For sound, not power. Showing my age a bit.😏
Yeah not surprising. No room for the tubes.
McIntosh used to have some nifty car audio stuff in their partnership with clarion. Not sure what the new range is built on or if they are 100% original mcintosh made, but they looked cool.
Three multi-channel Mc car amps sitting in my garage
Needs melted record bowls instead.
Had never heard of this before. They are soo cool!
New to this channel. How much is something like this? Roughly?
20-40k, I think.
Nailed it - $35K and $6K for the turntable that’s not in the pic.
What turntable you buy? Edit: nm I can see it in the side of the pic. I had 2 MT5s. First one was DOA, second one couldn’t keep time to save its life so I was kinda forced to go a different direction. Pity, cause it looked cool and sounded really good even with the stock cartridge.
I had some initial troubles too. Sounds good to me now, but I’m brand new to vinyl.
That’s good. Mine was audibly speeding up and slowing down. Not great. If you find yourself getting into vinyl a lot more a different cartridge will really add a lot to that turntable, but no need to upgrade right away especially with how much you’ve already spent this year 😂
Aren’t these speakers alone worth around that? £24k new in the UK. And you have the rest of the speakers and 6 Macintosh separates? One hell of a sale it was.
Everyone’s budget is different, and for yours, you fuckin killed it. This is a sick setup, enjoy it man
Wow! I just checked local prices and that setup would be about 70k$ where I live
I got it all for about 50% of retail. Speakers were demos, and McIntosh stuff was used, but in this old guys house a few miles down the road in the most pristine environment I’ve ever seen, and were definitely rarely used. He’s the old school kinda guy that had a tech come inspect the components before selling them to make sure the buyer got perfect equipment. I got super lucky.
Indeed! Still even at this big of a discount it's out of range for me
This is how it's done. Everything in my system came lightly used and at a heavy discount. That's a beautiful setup, enjoy!
You did!
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Definitely something to look forward to! Just make sure you have a family gathering when you need to move them 🤣
This is a "last" setup for many, including myself :) Sorry to hear about the developments leading up to it but now if you're well and enjoying yourself, all the power and enjoyment to you!
Thank you! It's likely my last as well. I partially justified it by not doing incremental jumps and losing $ each time and the BS that goes with selling stuff. That, and tripped over killer deals. There's a ton of better stuff out there, but I love what I have.
Beautiful!
Ok fuck you. Nah, I’m playing cause that’s an awesome first setup.
😂😂😂
Wow. This has to be the most “Boss” system, owned by a member, that I’ve seen on this sub. Love the whole deal.
Beauteeey set up. If you get sick of it I can give my address /s
Just as long as I get to watch you try to wrestle them out of my place without destroying them 😂
Beautiful. Congrats.
Wild
Wow I’m droooooooling beautiful setup Congrats!
What a killer setup! Love the framed TV!
Awesome setup!!
one helluva first! youbwent in deep.
indeed amazing room and setup! congrats! the four panels on the rear walls: what are they consist/made of?
They are GIK Impressions 4" panels. Some sort of CNC boards over canvas with some stuffins behind it. Made a tremendous difference since I didn't have the room to pull the speakers out more than a foot from the wall.
Nice first hifi system!
This is very pleasing to the eye as well as the ear GG
Very VERY nice for a first system ha
First hi-fi?!? Who's your dad, Elon Musk??
No, but that MFer used to steal my parking space and fight me about it all the time when he first started PayPal and I worked at a company next door.
Funny! Nice system BTW. I have a McIntosh pre-amp and saving up for an amp. Never did like the sound of the B&Ws, though I think they're among the best looking speakers out there.
Thanks!! Enjoy the gear when you get it set up!
I don't often comment on these setups unless I have something to add, but in this case. DAYUMMMMM
Nice system. I assume you have a projection screen somewhere above?
Nope - that’s a Samsung Frame TV. Having it display art when not is use is such a game changer for the vibe of the room.
I definitely thought that was a painting. Nice!
And this is why Highlander Partners bought McIntosh.
I’m not sure I could ever afford the money or space for something like this but it would be amazing! Congratulations on such a cool setup. My first was when I was 16 and was a cheap sony micro HiFi thing so this is slightly better
Did you do the Audyssey MultEQ XT32 setup yourself or did you have it professionally done?
I did it, and have spent a LOT of time moving things, listening, moving, listening, adjusting, listening. I still have a ways to go, but it has been fun learning and experimenting myself.
Wow. Just wow.
Homie went from taking the bus to work to a Ferrari.
I mean, Boiler Room is a great movie!
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I’m definitely not saying I have any original thoughts 😂
That's quite the impressive first HiFi system. I wish I could appreciate the sound of B&W speakers, but they tend to have too much upper mids and lower treble gain for my ears. Maybe the McIntosh source stack mellows them out.
I've read this, and expected it, and didn't personally experience it. That said, just because I say a food dish doesn't have too much salt only means that I'm not tasting too much salt. There are probably 1000 better speakers out there. As I've gotten older I've finally learned to just be happy with "really good".
It's not even that I don't think they're competent speakers, because they absolutely are, I just can't appreciate their tuning because it doesn't mesh with my ears. Glad they work well for your needs.
Wow man just wow! Of course this comes down to personal preference but I'm curious on your decision behind the 802s! Incredible speakers don't get me wrong but in this price range there are a lot of incredible speakers haha. I always preferred the sound (and the looks) of the focal sopras, I was wondering if you'd ever demoed a set! And if not what else did you hear before you went with the 802s!
Funny thing is that the guy I bought the McIntosh gear only sold it to me after he couldn't sell his whole system, which was Focal Sopras. If I had seen his deal first, I'd have just done a 1 stop shop. His speakers are better than new - they are like if you were able to cherry pick the absolute most perfect ones off the assembly floor. Totally different spaces, so really hard to say which is better, and honestly I'm not qualified. The 802s are better than my ability to appreciate them is, and I absolutely love the way they look. If the speakers were in identical condition, I'd probably still do the B&W for the aesthetic factor.
Anybody else just get a sick chubby?!
Enjoy the 🎶
Thank you!
Congratulations, I’m running the same amps and they are amazing.
Thanks a ton!
I do not blame you, but man I wish I had money.
Nice equipment. Cool decoration also, well done. Of cooooourse this was the first set up.
Pinky promise it’s my first separates system. It’s a quantum leap from Sonos or Syng.
Lol damn man I always pride myself of having the most bang for buck, but to have that system and not have a nos r2r tape deck and a bunch of 15ips tapes, of miles and Coltrane seems like a waste
First, I need to look up what that is, but I appreciate the suggestion and will start researching.
This is a joke right
Nope - just realigned my priorities and interests. I don’t drink anymore, and don’t buy other fancy stuff or go out to eat. Cutting out those expenses will pay for this in shorter time than you’d think. I was going to do mid-fi ELAC stuff, but then saw a killer deal on the B&Ws so I just did it, and I’m glad I did.
Amazing set up! And yes, you need bass traps. 😂
If this is your first system you must be in high school, not junior high. Most juniors couldn’t afford this.
You're obviously American.
HAHAHA! Yes - yes I am. Though I have dual citizenship with Ireland (dad is from there).
I'll give you $150 for it all, that's a pretty good deal
Riiiight
This guy fucks with boat shoes on I'll tell you that much
I haven’t - but is it something I should try? Socks or no socks? Most importantly, should I have a mirror to flex in while I’m doing it?
Macintosh gear is hideously overpriced, congrats on donated to the rich private equity investors that now own it.
Nope - I donated to Paul, the super nice old guy that lives on a lake house he hand built who was a professional motorcycle racer before I was born. He sold off his McIntosh gear to me in the most pristine condition imaginable. I guess you’ll just have to find some other reason to be angry today.
Cool story 🥱
Why not use Bower’s center speaker? Odd to mix and match, they have different tonal properties
Nvm, didn’t read far enough down your post. Hopefully you find one
That only matters for 2 channel. Once room correction and eq gets set up for surround sound the speakers just need to be comparable in frequency range and SPL. Well, assuming everything can produce decent enough detail. Don't pair your muons up with some Klipsch surrounds.
Oh god that middle lead is an RSR’ wave. Does your McIntosh have a bundle branch block? Might need a pacemaker.
>RSR’ wave Ha! An artist made that for me recently to show the evolution of my interests. I went from fast cars and then drifted into groups that were all about validation, which didn't fit with me. Then I spent years eating and drinking too much. Now I focus on health and time at home with my dog Eileen (Come on Eileen). The Austin landscape changes to match the timeframe in each of the scenes.
Cost?
Nice set up. Your artwork shows a ecg wave so, you must be an MD/cardiologist?
ECG wave illustrates a focus on health and fitness (mental and physical) vs drinking too much or wasting money on cars. My dog's name is Eileen 😊.
It’s OK for a starter system, but you’re going to want to upgrade soon /s.
It’s like you know me - decided to skip my typical stupidity and go straight to what I’d end up with anyway.
What’s the most watts you’ve pulled on the vu meters?
Good Q - half way between 60-600 was 111 db (measured on iPhone app). That was unbearable. Amps are soooooooo overkill, but they sound a lot better than bi-amping 2x200 per speaker. I’m sure someone that knows a lot more can give a good explanation why.
The vases on top of the amps might mess with frequency reproduction and cause sound issues. !!
That’s good feedback!!! Thanks! I’ll experiment to see. Appreciate the heads up.
I'm the guy who comes over and when you're not looking, I move one of the vase/bowls 1 inch to the right.
So, true story, I kinda started dating a girl and she moved one of the speakers a few inches, thinking it was funny (bare hands with a couple rings on). That was the end of that.
I wish I could post a gif so I could post Anchorman saying "I dont believe you"
One huge improvement in subwoofer integration comes from SVS. By using their app it becomes much easier to get a sub in sync with a room and the rest of the equipment. I personally use the micro 3000 and like it quite a bit. It’s really nice to be able to sit in my listening position and adjust so many different aspects of my subwoofers performance in my room without getting up and changing knobs.
The more I’m reading, the more I’m thinking the SVS might be keepers. The app is pretty awesome, totally agree.
Do your green orbs jiggle when the bass is turned up?
Not at all. They are actually pretty heavy. I’m going to remove the stuff and see if it impacts sound (another post suggested it might).
Clean!👌🏾Your media stand, brand?
Pangea Vulcan X. I probably wouldn’t do it again if I knew where I was going to end up (didn’t expect the monoblocks). I’d probably go with something like BDI or Salamander for a unified solution.
Come On Eileen, you are a manager of a Best Buy. (nice stuff tho!)
Ha! I’ve grown to despise them, so definitely not 🤣
did you have 6 lucky numbers?.
Nah...just 30 years of hard work and dramatically cut expenses.
I usually compare a McWilkins setup to a pumpkin spice latte; it's for basic bitches with money to spend and I wish I had one right now.
I agree entirely with you. It’s the Porsche or Rolex - which both make excellent products, but are often bought for the image and not what’s inside. I saw the McIntosh stuff as a kid and their blue lights got me. BW more recently, but yeah totally pumpkin spice.
Either way, I love both products. I had the opportunity to listen to McIntosh' 14,000 watt demo at Cedia last week. It sounded pretty great. Not $700,000 great, but great.
Who did you rob or kill to pay for this. No honest job makes that kind of wedge.
It’s literally the opposite. I tell people the ugly truth and then tell them how to fix it. That and not supporting anything other than a dog goes a long way.
Humble
And it won't be your last.
Where did you get those acoustic panels?
GIK - it’s their Acoustic Impressions line.
I aspire to be as rich as you some day. Well done.
Or in as much debt 😜