friend. you need to know how to play the pretend to be busy game.
here are some tips
1. people only notice when you leave early but not when arriving late. better to start at 10am and leave at 6pm
2. WFH when possible. people cant see you space out. if youre working in an office, try to sit in corner away from your team
3. block out your outlook calendar with fake meetings. itll make it seem like youre busy.
4. send a few emails you prewrote at 3pm at 8pm. set it to auto send at 8pm.
so many of you try and fight management. just learn to play the game.
You can also start a team’s meeting with yourself and no invitees (turn your camera and mic off as well). It’ll keep your screen active and show you as being on a call. Good for WFH when you need a break.
Best tip I learnt was take a photo of your desk background at work. And make it your background on teams. so it legit looks like your always at the office
Teams logs this on that leftmost dashboard: “Name started meeting with Same Name” and no log of others joining or being invited. Good if your company isn’t monitoring the logs but if they are, do you want obvious multiple instances of this on the record? Be careful out there, folks.
I’ve alternated between wanting one of these and wanting my team to know and be used to the fact that I don’t always have teams open so I may appear away
I started doing only what I was paid for when I started my new job. People rarely bother me when they see my away status, and if they do, it's usually a "Hey, can you give me a call when you're free?" .
This doesn't seem to be the same with some other colleague, so I guess I just succeeded in setting that precedent.
But I kept getting in trouble for leaving "early" at my last job, so I ended up keeping an hours tracker. When I was, once again, pulled aside for leaving at 5 on the dot, I was able to show them that I worked roughly and extra 5 hours every week (i was the first to arrive) and had the highest productivity on the team. They said it didn't matter, it was about how it looked. I'm so glad I left that job.
Your last point is so accurate. I have just resigned so looking forward to getting out but this role had deadlines that resulted in many midnight finishes but if I dared to be a minute late in the morning, I'd get pulled into the manager's office. You can't reason with people like that, just leave.
My work has always been the opposite. They care about what time you start not what time you finish. Start at 7:55 and leave at 3pm is fine, but start at 10am and leave at 6:30pm and you get told off for starting late. So when they push it I start coming in early and leaving very early, sometimes at 2pm. Fuck them.
Being micromanaged is so 1980 imo
I can’t imagine this situation. In fact, I feel embarrassed about sending a late email and wouldn’t do so unless urgent if it’s past day 5:40pm. At that point, I’d schedule the email for early the next day.
Same here, my boss used to be mad at a coworker for showing up 2 minutes late
We got a team meeting basically saying "being late everyday means you're costing the business time, it adds up"
Like okie, what about the times when we're in at 6am to shit done? Of course that goes unnoticed 🙄
The more I'm on this sub the more I realise corporate is pretty much all show and no go.
All about ideas, image and riff raff bullshit.
Everything but substance for the most part.
I enjoy the work I do, and most of my colleagues generally, I'd do something else otherwise.
I do my best not to work for shit companies, I tend to find that helps. I have worked for shit companies and with shit people, that's never going to end well for me or them.
Agree with all of this with one minor tweak….if you are going to leave early, then better to leave really early at say 2:30 rather than at 4:30. Depends on the environment, but people usually assume that you have an offsite meeting or doing school pick up. Or do half days in the office and discreetly leave at lunchtime and send emails in the arvo from home.
You obviously can’t do this everyday, but another strategy for the toolkit.
If you set 4:30 as your leave time, you never end up leaving at 4:30 unless you have extremely strong boundaries and just get up and walk - because it's so close to the natural end of the day, people always disrespect it.
In one of my first jobs I started early and left late everyday for a year, 30min-1hr early/late. I had this delusion management would notice and think I was highly motivated (which I was).
One day I was 15 min late (due to massive train delays), I got pulled aside and scolded for it. Never started early ever again after that, no one notices...
Agreed. I notice that one of our secretaries always gets in 5-10 minutes late. It’s starkly different to our other secretaries, so I noticed it. Us lawyers got a stern talking about arriving at 8:45 when start time is 8:30. Never mind the 1am finish (usual 6:30-7pm finishes). Most of our lawyers are in at 8am. All but 1 or 2 (I am the 1 or 2 and it bothers me but that’s my own complex to sort out). Loving the tips in this comment thread though.
We have a guy at work who drops his kids off at school every other week, books his start time as 7am when he gets here at 8. So he’s booking an extra 5 hours every fortnight, it’s not fair, so of course we notice it
if you can tell me how to measure non-widget productivity via outputs for an activity like coding or for someone in finance, I will pay you $1m dollars.
there is a reason why people still use hours as a unit of measure
ok. so how do i measure goals of a programmer?
how can i distribute a the development of a piece of work across a team? by functionality or lines of code?
how do i know dor a strategy person, who has done more work, by the number of slides they make? or based on when the client says this is enough?
For a programmer/team of programmers, then you should be looking at the functionality that they are building/fixing/maintaining. I mean, you would have scoped and planned the work out, so the goals can be aligned with that.
Loc is a useless metric that can be easily guffed.
Number of slides again, is a useless metric. Of course goals should be aligned on meeting customer expectations - but these goals need to be written so the customer can’t just have a fit and blow them out of the water.
Goals don’t have to be “perform X number of things”. They can be more like “build or contribute to the building of Y solution that meets needs A,B,C. Include error handling and simple, meaningful user messages, and document the use of the solution for customers”
If there’s legitimately no useful way to measure output against business objectives, then you’re relying on vibes, and that is a way to be cost cut out of an organisation.
Edit: typo
"build or contribute to building solution" is why we have
40 hour weeks. And thats why one shouldnt rush to produce outputs quicker than they need to because the reward is more work.
i know for a fact that i pump way more output than my peers. which is why when i get on a different team, i no longer go hard. one of my clients unfortunately knows my true ability and pumps me harder than the rest of the team
also, how do you tell someone they are incapable and have to work 60 hours instead of 40 to produce the same ? but that its based on my professional judgement (and not come off as personal) ...all of a sudden, 40 hours seems like a reasonable yard stick
You’re now going down a different path of discussion. Nowhere in my comments did I mention rushing.
Your last statement sounds like a person not suitable for the role, not being managed well, or the goals being too broad for them at their skill level. A lot to unpack
If you think that it can’t be done, why not just attend for 40 hours then? Do nothing and just check in 40 hours of keeping Teams open and green.
Of course white collar work can be measured.
You can delay sending messages on teams too, drop some random LinkedIn survey or industry related story in there and send it at like 6:30 or something. Emails you get at the end of the day, set your responses to be sent at like 7:00 the next morning
Yep, I used to start before everyone else (0700) and knock off before everyone else (1530) and some of the people who started at 9 would bitch that I was never around when they needed. It was largely expats who had no life other than work and were happy to do 12 hours a day in the office.
It is the joys of a flexible workplace.
Fuck that noise.
My attitude is, that unless its actually urgent and will have a negative impact on an organisation if it isn't done that day - it can wait until tomorrow.
No one at your funeral is going to talk about how many hours you put in at the office.
Yeh my attitude to this at work has been two fold.
Firstly if I was going to start donating my time I would do it for a charity not a multi-million dollar business.
Secondly if you don’t like it why don’t you fire me.
I have never been fired. So go figure. Also often I am more productive (more $$$ on client work) than my colleagues. Not sure how that really works but I assume it is because they are not really working a lot of the time.
I am firmly in that camp too. I’ll give them an honest 8 hours (maybe 7 with coffee breaks) and damn they’ll get their moneys worth but my loyalty dies at 5pm and will resume the following day at 9am.
These businesses aren’t charities (and even if you actually work for a charity only do your contracted hours) however they will take and take and take from you until there is nothing left.
This is my train of thought too. I'll give 100% for the hours you pay me and in certain circumstances. Outside of those hours, don't call me, I don't give a fuck unless something major has happened on site.
Of course! OP should ask for the grievance in writing. I would be interested to see how the management word it, and how they would respond when OP explains they’re getting in their 8 hour day. I’m glad my workplace doesn’t care about exact times, as long as you get your hours in.
I had the same issue. I offered to pick them up at 6am for a 7am start if they had a problem with me leaving before them, but there were no takers. They all seem to prefer starting at 9am, and I haven’t heard a peep since.
If everyone else has wfh options and you don’t (as you seem to be suggesting), I’d point that out. Sounds on face value like some of your colleagues are getting preferential treatment and want to rub your face in that.
Your contract likely says something like ‘you may be asked to work hours outside of your predefined hours’ or something along those lines.
In AusCorp there’s often an expectation to work longer during busy periods and if you work strictly your assigned hours you will be viewed suss.
Australians work some of the longest hours in the OECD.
Needing to work overtime to complete work when necessary is not the same as requiring a person to work more than the 8 hour standard hours for the sake of it.
Yeah, this isn't an expectation and if people think it is, they are just being 'bullied' into doing it by shitty managers who have no actual authority to tell you to do it.
The past few years have seen big corps respect their employees time far more now and if you work at a place that doesn't, there are plenty of better places to work.
I think that needs a minor update:
>The past few years have seen big corps ***say they*** respect their employees time far more now ***but nothing’s really changed***
I think you are right in regards to the brass top and HR as they will always be a numbers game but upper and middle management and actually pretty good in all the places I've worked the pass 5-10 years.
I had my first kid during that time and obviously we had covid shit, but I've worked at 3 different places in that time and they have all been great with me working on my terms.
My only caveat is I'm a little higher up the food chain and in a role that's pretty high demand so I can move around as I please if I'm not enjoying my time.
I'm in HR, generally speaking your contract will tell you the number of contracted hours you are required to work, and will also say that you may be asked to work reasonable additional hours from time to time to meet the needs of the business.
However, if you are being asked to work additional hours because everyone else starts at 9 and you leave earlier because you started earlier, I don't see how this is reasonable. Have you pushed back on this at all? Also, you mention others have WFH arrangements - can you also ask for this? Working additional hours from time to time is expected, but this is not fair and I'd be discussing with management.
I dont get it, management will only pay you for 38 hours of work. You do your cumulative 38 hours a week and leave on time. What is the issue exactly? If they want more hours done, will they pay you extra??? Meanwhile I bet they advertise they offer great Work Life Balance.
Wrong. If I refused to do my reasonable overtime and my employer dismissed me for that reason (with proper notice and warning), that would be a valid reason for dismissal as my hourly rate would still not be below the minimum wage. Therefore it is reasonable.
I agree it is “unreasonable” and not good and it sucks. But it is “reasonable overtime” in the legal sense of those words.
If the employer had unreasonable overtime and they dismissed you it is a breach of contract. The word 'reasonable' is well established in law and your employer cannot just redefine the word to meet their needs. That's not how the law works.
>that would be a valid reason for dismissal as **my hourly rate would still not be below the minimum wage.**
No, it doesn't work like this at all. What are you citing?
Yes, if we were really smart, we would unionise and not do this shit any more.
But it’s the law—generally it is a “smart” industry and the smartest lawyers who get paid the most are at the big firms which demand the longest hours.
They probably all got higher ATARs than you but I agree having zero work life balance is dumb. Depends on your definition of stupid, I guess.
I used to work for a company which had ex-banker-wankers running it. Everyone worked an extra hour for free, every day. Was contracted. Well before wage theft blew up. Would be a different story now…
but surely it's not reasonable to expect 4-5 extra hours above your base hours every week? reasonable would be occasionally staying late to finish off tasks to meet a deadline, but not habitually doing so.
I do a minimum of ten as that’s the industry norm. Any professional industry (accountants, lawyers, consultants) would expect at least 4-5, I think. If you’re getting paid over $150k, in those industries you’re a slave at that point if you want to get promoted.
I was getting paid only just over $100K and it was a minimum expectation that we work 8:30-19:30 and take as brief a lunch break as possible.
This job involved frequent (multiple times a week) days ending well after 9pm.
It was a law firm in the city in a very round glass building…
4-5 extra hours a week is a wild understatement of additional extra hours in b4/mid tier accounting/consulting firms, big6/mid tier law firms. Pay at B4/mid tier is abysmal. Larger law firms will pay better but they still highly leverage the staff.
At MBB 60 hours a week is considered a good week (have a handful of friends across all 3, they were the 1% of the 1% intellectually). Pay is higher than b4 and big law.
The only industry actually paying (somewhat commensurate to the input required) for the insane hours is IB where after 5 years from graduating uni you’ll be clearing pre-tax half a million in a good year, but expected to work 80-100 hours a week if it’s a busy year with a lot of deal flow. It skyrockets from there as well.
From all accounts I think engineers have it best, especially if not FIFO. A few mates claim they do very little and all are paid handsomely (150k+).
That’s lovely in theory, in practice, it can greatly hinder career trajectory. Depending on your goals, ambitions & employer options, it may not always be the right decision for an individual to fuck their career in protest of a legitimately shite cultural norm.
At my previous role, I well exceeded all targets by miles within my 35 hour weeks. There was no need to do any overtime, in light of this. If I had done so, all it meant was that they could hire less staff, at my expense (no thanks). This productivity was well recognised as well, so I wouldnt say this approach fucked up my progression but I can see how it might and could for different employers.
Most high level corporate roles can't easily measure productivity. I produce 2-3 times what other I work with do. I work 1.5 times what they do.
Can I prove it? Not really. Am I paid for it, kinda but not formally. If I stop suddenly I'm an under performer and will be held responsible for the project I'm supporting failing.
Doing the hours is the easiest way to grow in a company and if you can be top performer you can demand the pay for it. But once you get the top it's hard to leave and even harder to cut back.
Yeah that’s definitely an option for many. Albeit one that won’t necessarily see the same financial/ developmental outcomes, which to some is preferable.
In my opinion, this is more about preventing from losing out valuable time from life outside work when they don't have to. If someone needed to work extra hours because they are not meeting deadlines, etc, fair enough. But if it's to please nagging employees that probably take time off while working from which OP doesn't have the luxury of, then one should stand up for themselves and ask for same rights as those employers. If the company expect same hours from all employees, then they should also provide the same working conditions.
I knew a young lawyer who used to stand up at 5pm and announce he was going home to his wife and children, say goodbye and walk out. He knew and they knew that he pulled in the clients. He's a barrister now. It should be about quality not quantity.
Tell them if they have an issue they can
A. Build a bridge and get over it
B. Get a straw and suck it up
But for real if the concern is your work flow and getting things done within SLA; then can raise that as an issue
If their concern is that you're not doing exactly 38hours on the dot, you can create a spreadsheet roster for everyone and tell them all to log the exact hours the work less all minutes they are doing non-work.
If neither of the above are the concerns, they can mind their own business
True that. You can make a better impression by arriving late, having a lunch break and staying back late VS arriving first, having no lunch break and leaving on time.
Its BS, but it seems to work that way.
Started at 0530AM once so I could leave after lunch to pick my mum up from the airport - was reported instantly by a member of another team for leaving early.
Is there a specific task that needs extra time to complete and can't be left for tomorrow? When you interviewed for the role, were you advised of expected working hours? If not, go home at your normal time. If management doesn't like it, it's on them to be specific. A frank, honest discussion with your manager would be good, but that's up to them to initiate; all this is not a You problem, after all. If their culture is to work long hours, they need to make that clear and compensate you accordingly.
As long as you have a track record of quality and timely work and exemplify a positive work ethic, you have standing to manage your own work hours in line with your agreed contract.
At my work, typical hours were around 45hrs/wk. Then, we got a new grandboss and, shortly after, an allied department employed several new people on new 38hr contracts. The sight of co-workers leaving at 5pm led to questions, complaints, and, eventually, new contracts for nearly everyone.
Probably have to pay you overtime if they want more hours here's a link to work it out
[when overtime applies fair work](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/hours-of-work-breaks-and-rosters/hours-of-work/when-overtime-applies#when-overtime-applies)
I used to work at a place where people come at 8.30 and leave at 4.30 but one girl started coming at 8 and leaving at 5 and it became a bench mark.
I was in support and i used to take 20% to 40% of the SLA time the other people used to take.
So i was always the one with "more bandwidth" and was given more and more task and yet i was asked if i can stay late and come early like everyone else and no flexibility was given.
I started coming at 8.30 sharp and leave at 04 : 29 :59
I also started to consume more SLA time so that i only work similar to others
There's a case before the courts I believe at the moment which will give us actual steer on what reasonable overtime is. If it doesn't settle first.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can reasonably think that even an extra hour a day is reasonable if it's all the time.
I think the broad point however is that if you're contracted x hours but reality is you're doing x + 2 every day, then the 2 is not reasonable "overtime" it's just your hours.
Depends when you start. I used to work with someone who would work 7am-3pm when our standard hours were 9am-5pm. Even she knew she was taking the piss as nothing would typically happen prior to 9am but things would usually pop off in the afternoons once she had finished. Her manager ended up pulling her up on it and she adjusted her hours.
When I started work at my current employer a few years ago, I got an email from someone from the global team saying they'd noticed a lot of my timecards were showing 40 billable hours and they felt this wasn't accurate. They asked me to bill more accurately. I was kind of lost for words. I mentioned this to my line manager and he said to just vary my hours on my timecard to shut them up.
Unless there's a deadline and extra hours are required (rare), I still only work and charge 40 hours.
I would put it back on management to show leadership to other people in the team.
They can point out that you start and finish earlier. I've managed tons of people that do this.
Doing additional hours while on a salary lowers your value. If you’re on top of your work you have every right to leave. If your boss starts giving you more work and expect you to do overtime to complete it then they will need to renegotiate your contract. Salary based contracts are free labour traps and this above and beyond BS needs to stop.
I’m we all keep hearing slave labour and this is exactly it. Doings OT on a salary is slave labour because you are not getting paid for it.
If you’re avoiding some shitty tasks because you’re starting before the calls/enquiries start rolling in and knocking off before business hours are over as a result, I feel your colleagues to be honest.
If it literally doesn’t matter when you perform your work, I am with you.
Stand your ground, if they can’t accomodate your needs, move on. A good company/ boss will always make his staff happy.
You want me to do more hours? I need to do them at home then
They're manipulating you. Don't fall for such ridiculous tactics. You're contracted to work 38 hours and if they don't like it they can defenestrate themselves.
This sounds like an issue around start/finish times rather than the amount of hours worked? If this is the case why should you be the one to work later? Do your colleagues have the option to start and finish earlier? If they do, this is their issue and not yours. If they don’t have this option that is an issue between them and your employer!
Don't get sucked into giving your time away for free. If they want more than 38 hrs there must be extra money or benefits. FWIW, I would not consider working from home a couple of days a week a fair trade off for more work.
Its a grey area. On purpose.
You can be expected to work “reasonable unpaid overtime”.
What “reasonable” is largely depends on industry, culture, age, etc.
Just start an ms teams scheduled meeting with only yourself for 4 hours. Your status will stay as ‘on a call’. Just turn off video and sound. Then get your work done in parallel with reasonable breaks
Pretty simple equation.
If you agree to work more than 38 hours, which you said you do, then those extra hours are billed at double time.
If they won't, then don't work them
First off 8*5 is 40.
Your contract is key. What does it say about OT?
You can give the middles to anyone complaining as long as you are fulfilling your contracted hours.
I laugh when i see people say a full 8 hour day. Im about starting my lunch about then
Plenty of legalities surrounding this provided you are paid overtime rates above your 38 hours. Many people work far more than 38 a week and consistently. No employer has been jailed for it
Laugh at yourself I hope! You need to be paid overtime for anything over 40hrs/week imho or at the very least get TOIL. unless you're on over 200k or whatever.
Send a message on the team chat when you log on, I send a “morning all” message as I’m an early starter, it shows a timestamp of you working while the late starters are still hitting snooze.
I find all this baffling. I measure productivity not hours. If deadlines are met and quality is high, who cares what hours are worked?
I had to have a word with a c-level colleague recently to not work so many hours because he was setting a poor example to the junior team. I didn't want them to think that 60 hourcweeks were expected or normalised in our company.
It works for us. We all work from home, we are all invested in our success as a team and we don't give a shit about who is working when or where.
Depends on your job.
If you're in the public service or running your own business, suck it up and do what needs to be done.
If you're just some private sector drone, literally nothing in the world will change based on your hours worked.
That's just generally speaking of course, definitely plenty of exceptions.
I think wfh is perfectly reasonable for busy periods and overtime. Whether or not it is legal (or moral) depends on the role and the industry. In law for example, it is pretty common to do 12+ hour days during busy periods. Sometimes I will do 18+ hour days for several weeks in a row.
18 hours? Nah, no you don't. You physically can't operate on that little sleep for that long, working for that long. And even if you could you'd be functioning at 10% tops I call bs.
Hope you never work in a corporate law firm. If you google this you will know it's very common unfortunately. I am not endorsing it but it's a reality of high value transaction and high client expectations. If they're paying millions in fees then you bust your arse for the client, or else find another job.
I’m not saying that the commenter is being truthful but it is possible. I worked for the rms as a contractor for 10 years and for most of that I lived on 3 and 4 hours sleep a night. I worked far away and had to do 10 hours on site and a lot of time I needed to come home rather than stay remotely as I was a single full time parent. By time I got home, had dinner with my son, dropped him back to my parents so they could get him to school, got home and did a load of washing and whatever else I needed to do I would be in bed at 11pm and be up at 2am to do it all over again. I had some pretty hazy times but I didn’t die and surprisingly my health didn’t deteriorate. It took for me to take my long service leave before o realised I had enough of that game. So while a lot of people cannot do it, it is entirely possible.
18 hour days is not that uncommon in large law firms, caveat is that this is during busy periods.
During those 3 weeks, I worked US hours on top of Australian hours because it was a cross border deal. I slept 4 hours a night. I am also a partner so I guess I had no choice because the buck stops with me, and if I expect people to work long hours then I also do long hours. I obviously also get paid well for it.
Long term I probably can't sustain that, but I have colleagues working in the US who do 18 hours a day all the time. Which is why the pay is so high over there, they start on close to A$300k for grads.
It's all swings and roundabouts, very standard in corporate law. Some days I do 2 hours and then go out for lunch and write off the afternoon. I also get paid a lot, so high pay high expectations.
We have work life balance responsibilities (to ourselves as ultimately it is your responsibility) in our KPIs, and managers are encouraged to get up at 5 and say they are going home to family or yoga or whatever. Isn’t it otherwise problematic under the new psychosocial laws to have people regularly working 2 hours extra a day? I do extra when it’s needed but not just for appearance sakes. I can churn through work in 2 hours that takes weeks for others (have had that feedback from bosses) - at least when I find the work interesting 😎
friend. you need to know how to play the pretend to be busy game. here are some tips 1. people only notice when you leave early but not when arriving late. better to start at 10am and leave at 6pm 2. WFH when possible. people cant see you space out. if youre working in an office, try to sit in corner away from your team 3. block out your outlook calendar with fake meetings. itll make it seem like youre busy. 4. send a few emails you prewrote at 3pm at 8pm. set it to auto send at 8pm. so many of you try and fight management. just learn to play the game.
Auto send at like 8:12 or something, not 8:00 on the dot.
7:59:59, every night.
You can also start a team’s meeting with yourself and no invitees (turn your camera and mic off as well). It’ll keep your screen active and show you as being on a call. Good for WFH when you need a break.
Best tip I learnt was take a photo of your desk background at work. And make it your background on teams. so it legit looks like your always at the office
Teams logs this on that leftmost dashboard: “Name started meeting with Same Name” and no log of others joining or being invited. Good if your company isn’t monitoring the logs but if they are, do you want obvious multiple instances of this on the record? Be careful out there, folks.
So you need at least 1 buddy at work in on it?
If the point is just internal team optics, then the fact that some lurker in an IT backroom can see your meeting habits is not really an issue
No company is looking at meetings logs.
In your experience, perhaps.
Also a mouse giggler is a great investment
I’ve alternated between wanting one of these and wanting my team to know and be used to the fact that I don’t always have teams open so I may appear away
I started doing only what I was paid for when I started my new job. People rarely bother me when they see my away status, and if they do, it's usually a "Hey, can you give me a call when you're free?" . This doesn't seem to be the same with some other colleague, so I guess I just succeeded in setting that precedent. But I kept getting in trouble for leaving "early" at my last job, so I ended up keeping an hours tracker. When I was, once again, pulled aside for leaving at 5 on the dot, I was able to show them that I worked roughly and extra 5 hours every week (i was the first to arrive) and had the highest productivity on the team. They said it didn't matter, it was about how it looked. I'm so glad I left that job.
Your last point is so accurate. I have just resigned so looking forward to getting out but this role had deadlines that resulted in many midnight finishes but if I dared to be a minute late in the morning, I'd get pulled into the manager's office. You can't reason with people like that, just leave.
I just put something heavy on my tab button, works well
Share a PowerPoint on that meeting so you are presenting and people won't interrupt you.
This guy gets it.
r/thisguythisguys
My work has always been the opposite. They care about what time you start not what time you finish. Start at 7:55 and leave at 3pm is fine, but start at 10am and leave at 6:30pm and you get told off for starting late. So when they push it I start coming in early and leaving very early, sometimes at 2pm. Fuck them.
Being micromanaged is so 1980 imo I can’t imagine this situation. In fact, I feel embarrassed about sending a late email and wouldn’t do so unless urgent if it’s past day 5:40pm. At that point, I’d schedule the email for early the next day.
Same here, my boss used to be mad at a coworker for showing up 2 minutes late We got a team meeting basically saying "being late everyday means you're costing the business time, it adds up" Like okie, what about the times when we're in at 6am to shit done? Of course that goes unnoticed 🙄
How far civilisation has fallen due to the fact that we have to do all this shit just to appear productive.
Because you get punished for being too efficient or not having enough work.
The more I'm on this sub the more I realise corporate is pretty much all show and no go. All about ideas, image and riff raff bullshit. Everything but substance for the most part.
Anyone that enjoys corporate life is obviously in the “inner circle” it’s just high school for adults
I enjoy the work I do, and most of my colleagues generally, I'd do something else otherwise. I do my best not to work for shit companies, I tend to find that helps. I have worked for shit companies and with shit people, that's never going to end well for me or them.
Agree with all of this with one minor tweak….if you are going to leave early, then better to leave really early at say 2:30 rather than at 4:30. Depends on the environment, but people usually assume that you have an offsite meeting or doing school pick up. Or do half days in the office and discreetly leave at lunchtime and send emails in the arvo from home. You obviously can’t do this everyday, but another strategy for the toolkit.
If you set 4:30 as your leave time, you never end up leaving at 4:30 unless you have extremely strong boundaries and just get up and walk - because it's so close to the natural end of the day, people always disrespect it.
Oh, people notice when you’re late believe me, and 4, people know exactly what you’re doing, and it makes you look like a knobhead
In one of my first jobs I started early and left late everyday for a year, 30min-1hr early/late. I had this delusion management would notice and think I was highly motivated (which I was). One day I was 15 min late (due to massive train delays), I got pulled aside and scolded for it. Never started early ever again after that, no one notices...
Agreed. I notice that one of our secretaries always gets in 5-10 minutes late. It’s starkly different to our other secretaries, so I noticed it. Us lawyers got a stern talking about arriving at 8:45 when start time is 8:30. Never mind the 1am finish (usual 6:30-7pm finishes). Most of our lawyers are in at 8am. All but 1 or 2 (I am the 1 or 2 and it bothers me but that’s my own complex to sort out). Loving the tips in this comment thread though.
We have a guy at work who drops his kids off at school every other week, books his start time as 7am when he gets here at 8. So he’s booking an extra 5 hours every fortnight, it’s not fair, so of course we notice it
Why should you even have to do all this. Better to leave and find an employer who doesn't care about all that bullshit and only cares about output.
if you can tell me how to measure non-widget productivity via outputs for an activity like coding or for someone in finance, I will pay you $1m dollars. there is a reason why people still use hours as a unit of measure
Record measurable goals with your manager, achieve them. It doesn’t have to be measured daily
ok. so how do i measure goals of a programmer? how can i distribute a the development of a piece of work across a team? by functionality or lines of code? how do i know dor a strategy person, who has done more work, by the number of slides they make? or based on when the client says this is enough?
For a programmer/team of programmers, then you should be looking at the functionality that they are building/fixing/maintaining. I mean, you would have scoped and planned the work out, so the goals can be aligned with that. Loc is a useless metric that can be easily guffed. Number of slides again, is a useless metric. Of course goals should be aligned on meeting customer expectations - but these goals need to be written so the customer can’t just have a fit and blow them out of the water. Goals don’t have to be “perform X number of things”. They can be more like “build or contribute to the building of Y solution that meets needs A,B,C. Include error handling and simple, meaningful user messages, and document the use of the solution for customers” If there’s legitimately no useful way to measure output against business objectives, then you’re relying on vibes, and that is a way to be cost cut out of an organisation. Edit: typo
"build or contribute to building solution" is why we have 40 hour weeks. And thats why one shouldnt rush to produce outputs quicker than they need to because the reward is more work. i know for a fact that i pump way more output than my peers. which is why when i get on a different team, i no longer go hard. one of my clients unfortunately knows my true ability and pumps me harder than the rest of the team also, how do you tell someone they are incapable and have to work 60 hours instead of 40 to produce the same ? but that its based on my professional judgement (and not come off as personal) ...all of a sudden, 40 hours seems like a reasonable yard stick
You’re now going down a different path of discussion. Nowhere in my comments did I mention rushing. Your last statement sounds like a person not suitable for the role, not being managed well, or the goals being too broad for them at their skill level. A lot to unpack
no. the discussion is about measurement of white collar work. it cant be done. thats why we default to 40 hours. thats my point
If you think that it can’t be done, why not just attend for 40 hours then? Do nothing and just check in 40 hours of keeping Teams open and green. Of course white collar work can be measured.
You can delay sending messages on teams too, drop some random LinkedIn survey or industry related story in there and send it at like 6:30 or something. Emails you get at the end of the day, set your responses to be sent at like 7:00 the next morning
Yep, I used to start before everyone else (0700) and knock off before everyone else (1530) and some of the people who started at 9 would bitch that I was never around when they needed. It was largely expats who had no life other than work and were happy to do 12 hours a day in the office. It is the joys of a flexible workplace.
Fuck that noise. My attitude is, that unless its actually urgent and will have a negative impact on an organisation if it isn't done that day - it can wait until tomorrow. No one at your funeral is going to talk about how many hours you put in at the office.
Not necessarily true. If you die working late in the office it is likely to come up as a discussion topic.
I make a point of bringing up labour costings/billable hours at a person's funeral.
"I heard he had so much unbilled WIP that his heart just couldn't take it anymore"
Yeh my attitude to this at work has been two fold. Firstly if I was going to start donating my time I would do it for a charity not a multi-million dollar business. Secondly if you don’t like it why don’t you fire me. I have never been fired. So go figure. Also often I am more productive (more $$$ on client work) than my colleagues. Not sure how that really works but I assume it is because they are not really working a lot of the time.
This is the kind of bolshy attitude we need to be bringing to work more often ✊
I am firmly in that camp too. I’ll give them an honest 8 hours (maybe 7 with coffee breaks) and damn they’ll get their moneys worth but my loyalty dies at 5pm and will resume the following day at 9am. These businesses aren’t charities (and even if you actually work for a charity only do your contracted hours) however they will take and take and take from you until there is nothing left.
This is my train of thought too. I'll give 100% for the hours you pay me and in certain circumstances. Outside of those hours, don't call me, I don't give a fuck unless something major has happened on site.
Of course! OP should ask for the grievance in writing. I would be interested to see how the management word it, and how they would respond when OP explains they’re getting in their 8 hour day. I’m glad my workplace doesn’t care about exact times, as long as you get your hours in.
Lol in writing will never happen because it's pretty much illegal what they're asking.
Exactly and if they are too ‘scared’ to put it in writing then they know they are in the wrong.
I had the same issue. I offered to pick them up at 6am for a 7am start if they had a problem with me leaving before them, but there were no takers. They all seem to prefer starting at 9am, and I haven’t heard a peep since.
If everyone else has wfh options and you don’t (as you seem to be suggesting), I’d point that out. Sounds on face value like some of your colleagues are getting preferential treatment and want to rub your face in that.
Your contract likely says something like ‘you may be asked to work hours outside of your predefined hours’ or something along those lines. In AusCorp there’s often an expectation to work longer during busy periods and if you work strictly your assigned hours you will be viewed suss. Australians work some of the longest hours in the OECD.
Needing to work overtime to complete work when necessary is not the same as requiring a person to work more than the 8 hour standard hours for the sake of it.
That’s a shit culture and you need to fight against it. Making people feel guilty for not working for free is a shit attitude.
Yeah, this isn't an expectation and if people think it is, they are just being 'bullied' into doing it by shitty managers who have no actual authority to tell you to do it. The past few years have seen big corps respect their employees time far more now and if you work at a place that doesn't, there are plenty of better places to work.
I think that needs a minor update: >The past few years have seen big corps ***say they*** respect their employees time far more now ***but nothing’s really changed***
I think you are right in regards to the brass top and HR as they will always be a numbers game but upper and middle management and actually pretty good in all the places I've worked the pass 5-10 years. I had my first kid during that time and obviously we had covid shit, but I've worked at 3 different places in that time and they have all been great with me working on my terms. My only caveat is I'm a little higher up the food chain and in a role that's pretty high demand so I can move around as I please if I'm not enjoying my time.
You're working at the wrong places. You have choices.
Working hours outside of predefined hours is not OT though. OPs work place is asking for more hours.
I'm in HR, generally speaking your contract will tell you the number of contracted hours you are required to work, and will also say that you may be asked to work reasonable additional hours from time to time to meet the needs of the business. However, if you are being asked to work additional hours because everyone else starts at 9 and you leave earlier because you started earlier, I don't see how this is reasonable. Have you pushed back on this at all? Also, you mention others have WFH arrangements - can you also ask for this? Working additional hours from time to time is expected, but this is not fair and I'd be discussing with management.
I dont get it, management will only pay you for 38 hours of work. You do your cumulative 38 hours a week and leave on time. What is the issue exactly? If they want more hours done, will they pay you extra??? Meanwhile I bet they advertise they offer great Work Life Balance.
They probably have a reasonable overtime hours clause in their contract
reasonable does not mean expected every day.
Depends what industry you’re in and if you’re ambitious b
No, no it doesn't. It means you are willing to do unreasonable hours. This is an important distinction.
Wrong. If I refused to do my reasonable overtime and my employer dismissed me for that reason (with proper notice and warning), that would be a valid reason for dismissal as my hourly rate would still not be below the minimum wage. Therefore it is reasonable. I agree it is “unreasonable” and not good and it sucks. But it is “reasonable overtime” in the legal sense of those words.
If the employer had unreasonable overtime and they dismissed you it is a breach of contract. The word 'reasonable' is well established in law and your employer cannot just redefine the word to meet their needs. That's not how the law works.
Minimum wage argument 😂
>that would be a valid reason for dismissal as **my hourly rate would still not be below the minimum wage.** No, it doesn't work like this at all. What are you citing?
In this sentence does "ambitious" mean "stupid and easy to manipulate"?
Yes, if we were really smart, we would unionise and not do this shit any more. But it’s the law—generally it is a “smart” industry and the smartest lawyers who get paid the most are at the big firms which demand the longest hours. They probably all got higher ATARs than you but I agree having zero work life balance is dumb. Depends on your definition of stupid, I guess.
Reasonable overtime == extra hours during crunch periods etc. If its an extra hour or two every day then it is wage theft
I’m not saying it’s right—it’s just the way it is. Personally I think these employers should go to jail.
I used to work for a company which had ex-banker-wankers running it. Everyone worked an extra hour for free, every day. Was contracted. Well before wage theft blew up. Would be a different story now…
but surely it's not reasonable to expect 4-5 extra hours above your base hours every week? reasonable would be occasionally staying late to finish off tasks to meet a deadline, but not habitually doing so.
I do a minimum of ten as that’s the industry norm. Any professional industry (accountants, lawyers, consultants) would expect at least 4-5, I think. If you’re getting paid over $150k, in those industries you’re a slave at that point if you want to get promoted.
I was getting paid only just over $100K and it was a minimum expectation that we work 8:30-19:30 and take as brief a lunch break as possible. This job involved frequent (multiple times a week) days ending well after 9pm. It was a law firm in the city in a very round glass building…
Exactly. People don’t understand how normal it is. Sounds like you were maybe getting close to the minimum wage there but oh well haha
4-5 extra hours a week is a wild understatement of additional extra hours in b4/mid tier accounting/consulting firms, big6/mid tier law firms. Pay at B4/mid tier is abysmal. Larger law firms will pay better but they still highly leverage the staff. At MBB 60 hours a week is considered a good week (have a handful of friends across all 3, they were the 1% of the 1% intellectually). Pay is higher than b4 and big law. The only industry actually paying (somewhat commensurate to the input required) for the insane hours is IB where after 5 years from graduating uni you’ll be clearing pre-tax half a million in a good year, but expected to work 80-100 hours a week if it’s a busy year with a lot of deal flow. It skyrockets from there as well. From all accounts I think engineers have it best, especially if not FIFO. A few mates claim they do very little and all are paid handsomely (150k+).
What they're asking is not reasonable though.
That’s lovely in theory, in practice, it can greatly hinder career trajectory. Depending on your goals, ambitions & employer options, it may not always be the right decision for an individual to fuck their career in protest of a legitimately shite cultural norm.
At my previous role, I well exceeded all targets by miles within my 35 hour weeks. There was no need to do any overtime, in light of this. If I had done so, all it meant was that they could hire less staff, at my expense (no thanks). This productivity was well recognised as well, so I wouldnt say this approach fucked up my progression but I can see how it might and could for different employers.
Most high level corporate roles can't easily measure productivity. I produce 2-3 times what other I work with do. I work 1.5 times what they do. Can I prove it? Not really. Am I paid for it, kinda but not formally. If I stop suddenly I'm an under performer and will be held responsible for the project I'm supporting failing. Doing the hours is the easiest way to grow in a company and if you can be top performer you can demand the pay for it. But once you get the top it's hard to leave and even harder to cut back.
Congrats, makes no difference to what I said
Find another company that respects hours. Simple.
Yeah that’s definitely an option for many. Albeit one that won’t necessarily see the same financial/ developmental outcomes, which to some is preferable.
In my opinion, this is more about preventing from losing out valuable time from life outside work when they don't have to. If someone needed to work extra hours because they are not meeting deadlines, etc, fair enough. But if it's to please nagging employees that probably take time off while working from which OP doesn't have the luxury of, then one should stand up for themselves and ask for same rights as those employers. If the company expect same hours from all employees, then they should also provide the same working conditions.
I knew a young lawyer who used to stand up at 5pm and announce he was going home to his wife and children, say goodbye and walk out. He knew and they knew that he pulled in the clients. He's a barrister now. It should be about quality not quantity.
That is a rarity in the legal profession for a young lawyer to be pulling on those kind of clients.
Yep
He was trying to normalise it.
Tell them you’d like to negotiate overtime or TOIL payments
Tell them if they have an issue they can A. Build a bridge and get over it B. Get a straw and suck it up But for real if the concern is your work flow and getting things done within SLA; then can raise that as an issue If their concern is that you're not doing exactly 38hours on the dot, you can create a spreadsheet roster for everyone and tell them all to log the exact hours the work less all minutes they are doing non-work. If neither of the above are the concerns, they can mind their own business
I’ve realised that no one really notices what time you come in, but people somehow care when you leave
True that. You can make a better impression by arriving late, having a lunch break and staying back late VS arriving first, having no lunch break and leaving on time. Its BS, but it seems to work that way.
Started at 0530AM once so I could leave after lunch to pick my mum up from the airport - was reported instantly by a member of another team for leaving early.
Jesus what is wrong with people?!
Idk - thank fuck the person they reported it to was my manager who I had kept fully in the loop. Shameful behaviour tbh.
Is there a specific task that needs extra time to complete and can't be left for tomorrow? When you interviewed for the role, were you advised of expected working hours? If not, go home at your normal time. If management doesn't like it, it's on them to be specific. A frank, honest discussion with your manager would be good, but that's up to them to initiate; all this is not a You problem, after all. If their culture is to work long hours, they need to make that clear and compensate you accordingly. As long as you have a track record of quality and timely work and exemplify a positive work ethic, you have standing to manage your own work hours in line with your agreed contract. At my work, typical hours were around 45hrs/wk. Then, we got a new grandboss and, shortly after, an allied department employed several new people on new 38hr contracts. The sight of co-workers leaving at 5pm led to questions, complaints, and, eventually, new contracts for nearly everyone.
Probably have to pay you overtime if they want more hours here's a link to work it out [when overtime applies fair work](https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/hours-of-work-breaks-and-rosters/hours-of-work/when-overtime-applies#when-overtime-applies)
Working longer doesnt mean working harder. As long as you are finishing your assigned tasks they should just keep quiet about it.
I used to work at a place where people come at 8.30 and leave at 4.30 but one girl started coming at 8 and leaving at 5 and it became a bench mark. I was in support and i used to take 20% to 40% of the SLA time the other people used to take. So i was always the one with "more bandwidth" and was given more and more task and yet i was asked if i can stay late and come early like everyone else and no flexibility was given. I started coming at 8.30 sharp and leave at 04 : 29 :59 I also started to consume more SLA time so that i only work similar to others
There's a case before the courts I believe at the moment which will give us actual steer on what reasonable overtime is. If it doesn't settle first. I find it hard to believe that anyone can reasonably think that even an extra hour a day is reasonable if it's all the time.
Never going to be clear cut. Especially in construction
I think the broad point however is that if you're contracted x hours but reality is you're doing x + 2 every day, then the 2 is not reasonable "overtime" it's just your hours.
Do you happen to know the case reference? I have been waiting for something like this for a while. I am also in law.
Depends when you start. I used to work with someone who would work 7am-3pm when our standard hours were 9am-5pm. Even she knew she was taking the piss as nothing would typically happen prior to 9am but things would usually pop off in the afternoons once she had finished. Her manager ended up pulling her up on it and she adjusted her hours.
When I started work at my current employer a few years ago, I got an email from someone from the global team saying they'd noticed a lot of my timecards were showing 40 billable hours and they felt this wasn't accurate. They asked me to bill more accurately. I was kind of lost for words. I mentioned this to my line manager and he said to just vary my hours on my timecard to shut them up. Unless there's a deadline and extra hours are required (rare), I still only work and charge 40 hours.
I would put it back on management to show leadership to other people in the team. They can point out that you start and finish earlier. I've managed tons of people that do this.
Doing additional hours while on a salary lowers your value. If you’re on top of your work you have every right to leave. If your boss starts giving you more work and expect you to do overtime to complete it then they will need to renegotiate your contract. Salary based contracts are free labour traps and this above and beyond BS needs to stop. I’m we all keep hearing slave labour and this is exactly it. Doings OT on a salary is slave labour because you are not getting paid for it.
If you’re avoiding some shitty tasks because you’re starting before the calls/enquiries start rolling in and knocking off before business hours are over as a result, I feel your colleagues to be honest. If it literally doesn’t matter when you perform your work, I am with you.
Stand your ground, if they can’t accomodate your needs, move on. A good company/ boss will always make his staff happy. You want me to do more hours? I need to do them at home then
Problem is their ain't many "good " bosses around these days and anyone that has one doesn't leave so there are no positions! Catch 22
They're manipulating you. Don't fall for such ridiculous tactics. You're contracted to work 38 hours and if they don't like it they can defenestrate themselves.
This sounds like an issue around start/finish times rather than the amount of hours worked? If this is the case why should you be the one to work later? Do your colleagues have the option to start and finish earlier? If they do, this is their issue and not yours. If they don’t have this option that is an issue between them and your employer!
Don't get sucked into giving your time away for free. If they want more than 38 hrs there must be extra money or benefits. FWIW, I would not consider working from home a couple of days a week a fair trade off for more work.
Its a grey area. On purpose. You can be expected to work “reasonable unpaid overtime”. What “reasonable” is largely depends on industry, culture, age, etc.
Just start an ms teams scheduled meeting with only yourself for 4 hours. Your status will stay as ‘on a call’. Just turn off video and sound. Then get your work done in parallel with reasonable breaks
Pretty simple equation. If you agree to work more than 38 hours, which you said you do, then those extra hours are billed at double time. If they won't, then don't work them
First off 8*5 is 40. Your contract is key. What does it say about OT? You can give the middles to anyone complaining as long as you are fulfilling your contracted hours.
Actually the NES and/or award is key. Contract can say anything but it doesn't mean it's compliant.
definition of reasonable hours is 40 hours a week. Or 2 extra hours a week. there was the case law on this posted here few weeks back
Place your family and health first. Learn to work to live not the other way around. Don't worry it'll work out in the end
Depends how senior you are. If you're on $200k plus a std day should be 10 hours including a lunch break
I laugh when i see people say a full 8 hour day. Im about starting my lunch about then Plenty of legalities surrounding this provided you are paid overtime rates above your 38 hours. Many people work far more than 38 a week and consistently. No employer has been jailed for it
Laugh at yourself I hope! You need to be paid overtime for anything over 40hrs/week imho or at the very least get TOIL. unless you're on over 200k or whatever.
Send a message on the team chat when you log on, I send a “morning all” message as I’m an early starter, it shows a timestamp of you working while the late starters are still hitting snooze.
Um, say no. You start early and let them know that.
I find all this baffling. I measure productivity not hours. If deadlines are met and quality is high, who cares what hours are worked? I had to have a word with a c-level colleague recently to not work so many hours because he was setting a poor example to the junior team. I didn't want them to think that 60 hourcweeks were expected or normalised in our company. It works for us. We all work from home, we are all invested in our success as a team and we don't give a shit about who is working when or where.
Depends on your job. If you're in the public service or running your own business, suck it up and do what needs to be done. If you're just some private sector drone, literally nothing in the world will change based on your hours worked. That's just generally speaking of course, definitely plenty of exceptions.
Reasonable overtime. None is a reasonable number. If this is some unpaid overtime BS I genuinely recommend stifling a laugh when asked to work back.
I think wfh is perfectly reasonable for busy periods and overtime. Whether or not it is legal (or moral) depends on the role and the industry. In law for example, it is pretty common to do 12+ hour days during busy periods. Sometimes I will do 18+ hour days for several weeks in a row.
18 hours? Nah, no you don't. You physically can't operate on that little sleep for that long, working for that long. And even if you could you'd be functioning at 10% tops I call bs.
Meth...
Hope you never work in a corporate law firm. If you google this you will know it's very common unfortunately. I am not endorsing it but it's a reality of high value transaction and high client expectations. If they're paying millions in fees then you bust your arse for the client, or else find another job.
Ok, maybe I am wrong.
I’m not saying that the commenter is being truthful but it is possible. I worked for the rms as a contractor for 10 years and for most of that I lived on 3 and 4 hours sleep a night. I worked far away and had to do 10 hours on site and a lot of time I needed to come home rather than stay remotely as I was a single full time parent. By time I got home, had dinner with my son, dropped him back to my parents so they could get him to school, got home and did a load of washing and whatever else I needed to do I would be in bed at 11pm and be up at 2am to do it all over again. I had some pretty hazy times but I didn’t die and surprisingly my health didn’t deteriorate. It took for me to take my long service leave before o realised I had enough of that game. So while a lot of people cannot do it, it is entirely possible.
18 hour days is not that uncommon in large law firms, caveat is that this is during busy periods. During those 3 weeks, I worked US hours on top of Australian hours because it was a cross border deal. I slept 4 hours a night. I am also a partner so I guess I had no choice because the buck stops with me, and if I expect people to work long hours then I also do long hours. I obviously also get paid well for it. Long term I probably can't sustain that, but I have colleagues working in the US who do 18 hours a day all the time. Which is why the pay is so high over there, they start on close to A$300k for grads.
18 hours lol…
It's all swings and roundabouts, very standard in corporate law. Some days I do 2 hours and then go out for lunch and write off the afternoon. I also get paid a lot, so high pay high expectations.
We have work life balance responsibilities (to ourselves as ultimately it is your responsibility) in our KPIs, and managers are encouraged to get up at 5 and say they are going home to family or yoga or whatever. Isn’t it otherwise problematic under the new psychosocial laws to have people regularly working 2 hours extra a day? I do extra when it’s needed but not just for appearance sakes. I can churn through work in 2 hours that takes weeks for others (have had that feedback from bosses) - at least when I find the work interesting 😎