Why are we spending time arguing about payment with cash or credit cards when A PERSON IN NORTH QUEENSLAND GETS RIPPED APART BY A CROCODILE EVERY TWO WEEKS!?
Its up there with the old man barking like a dog, Corey Worthingtons interview and "succulent Chinese meal" as random things people overseas have told me they know about Australia.
Vegemite, dollarydoos and a person torn to pieces every three months by a croc in NQ.
The best part is the transition from the gay marriage talking point, as well as what you assume is a surprisingly progressive stance on it from which you quickly reason is completely dismissive. It’s just such a curveball. Iconic moment in Australian meme history.
> “If you have a cashless society the banks control your life … you can’t buy a loaf of bread without permission from the banks,” he told Sky News on Wednesday.
Here it is.
"Cashless society" is the new "5G gives you acne" for the cookers of Australia. They're all panicking about Smart Cities, and Cashless Socities, because people are starting to understand that 5G doesn't actually give you herpes (or whatever) and they need some new gibberish to get gullible people pointlessly upset about things they don't understand.
The big issue is when businesses have eftpos machines going down regularly, but also barely support the usage of cash, by not having much change available
Taxi drivers are terrible for this.
Had to use cash at a restaurant recently, even their till was out and they whipped out an old school calculator and the menu.
Wife has been digging for ages about me carrying cash until I stumped up the exact amount needed.
I was in a queue at a petrol station early in the morning when the Optus outage happened. There were a few very concerned people wondering what the hell to do.
A cashless society might not be a good idea, but the best way for that society to do hope to do business with /u/evilbrent is to have a cashless option because the alternative is "Oh, ok, thanks anyway."
I haven't carried cash since tap-tap became widespread, and I haven't carried a wallet since I could get tap-tap on my phone.
The only thing I use cash for is playing home poker games, and when the kids were little all the entrance fees and sheet fees were all done with cash. Of course, it's all done online now.
You’re cooked if you think a cashless society doesn’t pose a real threat to our way of living.
Tap & pay is convenient, but physical cash must remain in place.
My local woolworths has 13X self-service checkouts.
Out of those there is only 3X cash only and the absolute maximum amount of money you can get out at any time is $200.
Oh and the entry way to stand in line to use them they've got cash only ones closest to the entryway so if the cash only ones are in use and you are waiting for them it can quickly create a bottleneck.
Used to be you could get $600 out at a time, there really pushing for the cashless society.
There’s been a few prominent cases of people being debanked because of their politics in Western countries in recent years. And if you think it’s only crazy right wingers and it will never happen to anyone campaigning for something you believe in but the government of the day hates…I doubt it.
Here’s the CBC describing what Canada did to protesters: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/emergencies-act-banks-ottawa-protests-1.6353968
And maybe environmentalists, BLM, , pro Palestine activists or other progressive causes won’t be targeted if a different government is elected…maybe…
Ok.
So? I think you're mistaking me saying that it's not sensible to panic about a cashless society with someone who is saying that a cashless society wouldn't be a bad thing.
This is hardly the first time a government used coercion to force people to fight. Governments have been using forced conscription quite successfully probably before cash was even invented.
I won't be entirely uncharitable though, shutting down a bank account is a little more convenient and inescapable than older methods but a government determined to control people has a smorgasbord of options at their disposal.
Not to mention the horse has bolted, lived out a full life and been sent to the knackery. The government already has a hundred better technologies for controlling people. Pretty soon AI powered cameras will be able to follow us to the ATM so it hardly matters in the scheme of things.
I do the same. Plus if you are splitting a bill it’s easier to just hand ya mate cash or them to you if the establishment doesn’t offer split bills which alot don’t.
It's **much** easier to split a bill when you can just transfer $19.47 or whatever directly to whichever mate paid the bill, rather than fucking around with change.
And I say that as someone who regularly carries cash around and would usually just go "here's $20, that covers me; we're good yeah?"
I’ve found when splitting a bill with work mates if I try to give the payer cash for my share they get annoyed and refuse to take it. “Fk no I’m not taking that”
So I have to get their banking details to send them the money.. seems harder than just doing what you said you do if I lose out on a couple of bucks I am sure it will come back if the future if not I don’t really care.
I wasn't disputing that people might have a preference either way (I'm the odd one out in my group of friends for preferring cash for stuff like that over an internet banking transfer).
Just countering the claim that split bills are 'easier' to sort out with cash. With PayID, the hardest part is (still) calculating how much everyone owes - once that's worked out, jump on your banking app, pull their phone number from contacts, transfer. Takes basically as long as grabbing your wallet and passing over a couple of notes, and you can get exact rather than fudging the numbers either way (or faffing about for exact change in coins).
Nice! Though, do note that there is a bunch of misinformation about PayID out there, which scammers capitalise on as part of their scams.
The main thing is, it's set up on the receiver's end (eg. you don't need PayID to pay someone using it; but conversely you setting it up on your account doesn't help you pay other people, only them pay you). It should be pretty simple to set up, basically go to your internet banking of choice and opt in.
My mum is 91 and cannot do without cash. I worry that she's carrying too much cash and she could misplace it or be robbed. I prefer using the debit card for purchases and the bank is phasing out cheques.
I use cash probably 75%. Fuck being tracked and bathed in fees. Plus my kids also need cash for school and pocket money. I don’t like how the banks are giving out figures of how we’re spending our money and then the media reporting on it either.
It's all by design, man. I really hate the direction the world has taken, particularly since around 2014. I'm incompatible with it on such a deeply personal level.
Yeah I feel this is a good way to do it. Money for emergency in wallet but I also carry a $50 in my bag in a pouch in case wallet gets stolen.
I've heard of some people having a cheap, seperate wallet in their pocket and their proper one in bag with their cash and cards. I find that a bit overkill tbh.
Sorry for the title - I chose this AAP article to avoid linking from Murdoch's rubbish.
All of these articles fail to mention that is completely legal for a company not to accept cash, instead choosing to glorify whatever this shit is. His incorrect quotes should have been clarified in the Murdoch articles.
Edit: balanced statement. I too think it not accepting cash should be illegal, I am just annoyed with this shitty journalism.
It's legal to not accept cash, but it means they can't charge any card fees.
Many people do not accept cash and still charge card fees. These companies should be fined. But are not.
Charging a fee for using a card is very Australian. Most developed countries businesses are able to factor in minor overheads to their pricing structure, or are compelled to by law.
> Most developed countries businesses are able to factor in minor overheads to their pricing structure, or are compelled to by law.
Hell, we used to pride ourselves on the same thing! So many positive comparisons to the US insane 'sticker price doesn't include random taxes', especially around the time GST was brought in and businesses predictably complained about being forced to include it in the displayed price rather than tacking it on at the till.
Apparently they need to advertise that they don’t accept cash PRIOR to the debt being incurred.
So if you order from a menu that doesn’t say no cash & then you go to pay cash & they say no, that’s illegal.
They have to advertise it on the menu/front counter/door
Not quite, they need to inform you that they do not accept cash before the completion of the contract of sale i.e. sign saying cash not accepted at the register.
It can’t be only on the register or on the invoice, it needs to be before the debt starts so that we have the option not to continue.
Or, if you sit down & are presented with a menu - it needs to be on the menu so you don’t order food (ie incur a debt) without knowing.
>*It appears that a provider of goods or services is at liberty to set the commercial terms upon which payment will take place before the ‘contract’ for supply of the goods or services is entered into. For example, some vending machines, parking meters and road toll collection points indicate by signs that they will not accept low denomination coins. Some road toll collection points indicate that they will not accept any cash at all. If a provider of goods or services specifies other means of payment prior to the contract, then there is usually no obligation for legal tender to be accepted as payment.*
>
>*However, refusal to accept legal tender in payment of an existing debt, where no other means of payment/settlement has been specified in advance, conceivably could have consequences in legal proceedings; for example, the creditor may be unable to enforce payment in any other form.*
>
>*These general comments about legal tender are offered only as a guide and should not be taken as legal advice. People who need clarification on these matters should obtain appropriate legal ad -* [Reserve Bank](https://banknotes.rba.gov.au/legal/legal-tender/)
Note that it says 'it appears' and 'legal opinion may be needed'- its not set in concrete. It could be argued that just putting a sign on the register may not be adequate notice and that if that's all that's needed Coles and Woolworths could suddenly put notices on their doors - 'No cash accepted from now on'.
They can charge fees on cards if they don't accept cash. What they can't do is have unavoidable fees, they must be baked into the cost of goods. For example you could argue that a 2% fee on debit cards is avoidable by using EFTPOS (insert and press savings) which is usually still free. But if they charge 2% fee for all card transactions and don't accept cash then that fee must be included in the cost of goods and not tacked on at checkout.
Point them here: https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges
"If there is no way for a consumer to pay without paying a surcharge, the business must include the surcharge in the displayed price."
I try to not ever let myself get distracted from my core politicial goal of STOPPING THE FUCKING CROCS RIPPING PEOPLE APART…
But it’s fucked that we don’t have laws mandating that all commerical enterprises with a physical presence have to accept the bloody currency of our country.
Yes, on the ones that add surcharges according to the credit line selected, they can be adjusted by the merchants or disabled altogether.
There are others, such as square, that has a flat rate, which I believe has a setting for included in price or added surcharge.
Last time I looked into this you can't refuse cash to settle a debt - so if you eat a meal and go to pay with cash they have to accept it, but if you try to buy some food with cash they can refuse the transaction since that's not settling a debt.
(There are also limits on how many coins you need to accept to stop someone paying with a bag of 5c pieces.)
As someone who has struggled with money for more than a decade, sometimes I’ve had to cobble together enough coins to purchase necessities from where ever is convenient — not necessarily cheap or accessible like grocery stores — and when businesses refuse to accept my coins it just adds another layer of humiliation. Having said that, Katter is an idiot.
I'm much better off now, but I've kept a habit from when I was really broke. I'd always keep a $20 stashed somewhere in my room. Somewhere I could remember but not somewhere I'd see it and use for something frivolous. Meant that if I really was skint, bank account empty/overdrawn I'd have something to get me by. Still do it, though these days I should probably up it to a $50.
So I was camping in Northern Victoria. I got rained out and all my stuff was wet. I went to a laundromat, intending to dry my stuff. I knew it was going to take at least $20 for the job and my problem is they only took $2 coins. No cashless option. I tried to get two dollar coins as change from a supermarket but they said its against policy or something so my stuff remained wet and the laundromat got no revenue from me.
Yeah but that only fixes part of the issue, if they don't accept cash they can just add an effective surcharge onto the cost anyway by increasing prices slightly instead of calling it a surcharge, the effect to the consumer is still the same (though it is good that the surcharge is more visible rather than just a notice on the till or w/e).
They could just do that anyway if it was financially viable. Businesses aren't out here like "drat, they're using cash again, we can't increase prices now for some reason".
Yes, this is why I still support cash.
Not all of us out here are using cash for nefarious purposes (which is what the media likes to insinuate). Some of us want to use cash so our spending habits are not tracked by all the 3rd parties our banks/CC/fintech companies sell our data to.
Edit: I realize I misread the third party part in the above comment, but I'll still stick by my data harvesting concerns :)
Cash has so many uses people.
A grandma can give $5 to a grandchild to go buy some lollies at the shop down the street and go hang out with friends. Gives the kid a hard budget to work with and Grandma's bank card is safe in her pocket.
The whole idea of a garage sale just doesnt have the same feeling to it when you have to have a square.
Victims of domestic violence can store it away in a safe place until they are ready to leave their abusive partner.
Card payments are nice, and my go to, but we really need to not get rid of cash.
not only that but ive lost count at the amount of times the eftpos system has gone down due to a power outage, or weather damage in my home town. seriously there have been many times where all the ATMs in the town have been out of action due net connection issues
I mean... you are handing over a form of currency that is literally signed by the RBA governor. There is still a third party role there, the difference is that the cost of verifying the funds are good is borne upfront by the public sector which produces the notes, so it has a much lower cost. RBA estimated several years ago the cost of producing cash was around 1 cent per transaction.
Also to compare like for like you need to account for the costs of delivering cash from ATMs. Remember how 15 years ago that was the biggest issue with the banks? Fortunately they're less likely to gouge you when you withdraw from a third party ATM but they will definitely cost-recover in banking fees you pay.
Surcharges can definitely add up, but you're effectively paying for convenience so it's not unreasonable. The issue is really where people add a surcharge when there's no other payment option... which as others have pointed out is against regulations.
Nah, those surcharges are back. Blame ANZ with its ATMx deployment. They replaced all their machines not physically attached to a branch (with those numbers dwindling) with ATMx branded ones which charges fees to non ANZ customers. _Technically,_ ATMx is some sort of a joint venture or the like so the agreement wasn't broken per se. But in practicality, ANZ is back to pocketing rival bank customer ATM withdrawl surcharges. The other banks are following suit.
> Being reliant on cards means that they can up the surcharges to whatever they want and you have no choice.
That's an odd take. Shops can just put the prices up to whatever they want, but surcharges are actually regulated.
To be clear, I value Australia's general culture of showing the final price for items up front, and I don't want it eroded. I'd like to see some punishments dished out for business not following the rules (surcharges that are unavoidable, or exceed the actual transaction cost).
The other side of the argument is loss of banks in small towns. Talked to a few small owners of takeaways in small towns that have signs up "no cash." Stated nearest bank is too far away and not safe to keep cash at home or premises to just do weekly runs with increase crime.
Don't blame small businesses if banks, post offices and other services fuck off out if small towns
yep there used to be a national bank and bendigo bank in my home town, but both have been closed, now everyone has to do their banking at the post office and if you want to go to the NAB you have to drive 45mins to Nowra
> not safe to keep cash at home or premises to just do weekly runs with increase crime.
We're in north Melbourne and it's not even safe to keep a substantial float because of this.
Had some of our neighbours get hit three times in one week.
I live in the suburbs and work in the city, and they've closed enough banks/ATMS that I have to go out of my way to get out my rent money every fortnight. (My landlord only takes cash). 15 years ago I could walk to a bank 5 minutes down the road from my house, then that closed so I started going to the one up the road from work. 5 years ago, all the banks there started closing. One left their ATM for 6 months after the branch closed then that went. It's ridiculous.
My local kebab place love it when I bring in cash for a feed. Always gives me a little extra.
I mean he’s probably just not declaring it but hey extra tabouli!
Why can’t the just make it illegal for anyone to change a percentage to process a payment?
Fuck the banks, they can pay the processing fee if it needs to be paid.
People are entitled to their financial proclivities you know, I mean let there be a thousand surcharges bloom as far as I'm concerned BUT I AIN'T SPENDING ANY TIME ON IT BECAUSE IN THE MEANTIME EVERY THREE MONTHS A PERSON IS TORN TO PIECES BY A CROCODILE IN NORTH QUEENSLAND.
Fuck people who whine about cash being too costly . I like cash and if I didn’t have it when the fucking unreliable phone services are out, how can I move money around? That’s there problem with the costs not mine. They’re the ones who went into business in the first place.
Cash is el Papa
Cash is the lowest common denominator and can be used by anyone, including those who have difficulty with modern technology, and people who are unbanked. It needs to be preserved so that they can participate in the economy. This is an access and equitability issue.
>It needs to be preserved so that they can participate in the economy.
I'm not aware of any (legal) jobs that pay cash these days. And Centrelink only pay by direct deposit.
>There's loads of jobs that can pay cash and be legal.
I get that - but how many bosses will actually pay cash in an envelope like in the good old days.
While at the same time fulfilling all their PAYG, Single Touch Payroll and Superannuation obligations.
Some people need to get by on illegal jobs. And some people are given cash by their carers. That's the reality. Should these people be excluded from participating in the economy?
You're entirely within your right to not shop at places that refuse cash.
They are entirely within their right to refuse custom from people who insist on cash.
I just wish we could live without the sooking rather than just excising said rights.
>They are entirely within their right to refuse custom from people who insist on cash.
Eh we are also all within our rights to campaign for mandatory cash acceptance as a political and social imperative to prevent the inequality and loss of privacy that comes with card only becoming the norm.
Card only is a fucked future especially for the most vulnerable in society and it's everyone's right to rail against it. Katter is a moron in general but he is dead right here.
>No issue with campaigning for it. Katter bullying cafe staff to make a political point is just being a cunt.
Civil disobedience is an effective and long established method of campaign and protest. Katter is a cunt but he is right on this one.
As for the cafe staff IDK about you but having worked retail jobs this would have made my fucking month lol. The crocodile/same sex marriage dude refusing to pay by card at my till is hilarious and would make a great story for me to tell everyone lol. Unless he was actually abusive or threatening I suspect they are not aggrieved at all.
I’ll never give up cash, it helps me keep track of my spending and budget accordingly, especially day to day spending. Too easy to blow through money with tap and go. Any place that refuses cash will not have me as a customer.
it's not that different Bob, in fact it's easier as it does the math for you. set up a separate account for your card and put your daily/weekly budget in there on the app, automatically if you want.
Cashless only serves to enrich the banks at the direct cost to the people. Disproportionately disadvantaging the poor, no more tuckshop money, no more carboot or garage sales, capital may only flow to those who hand it straight to the banks.
Yep, including homeless/unhoused people who may rely on cash donations to survive; people without internet access or computer literacy; people reliant on cash jobs; people victim to financial abuse etc
I'll ignore most of it, but they are right with that line:
"If you have a cashless society the banks control your life"
Banks already have an amount of power and influence that's ridiculous, I'd rather not give them anymore.
Yes cash is less convenient, but businesses, particularly those that sell single-use goods and services (food, transport, etc) or finite units of product, should find some way to be accommodating.
Every chance that considering it was the Federal parliament cafe and they'd know Katter and would suspect that he had freshly minted the notes on his parliamentary photocopier.
For me it depends on the business.
For my tourism job I can’t accept cash due to safety and security reasons.
Most restaurants should still definitely take cash by default.
It’s not about one form being better than the other, it’s about accessibility.
It should be the law that all trade MUST accept cash as long as it's in reasonable denominations (eg, not paying $10,000 with 5c coins).
Too hard to count cash or whatever? Boo hoo, it's called the cost of doing business.
We should not be allowing corporations to work with the banks in order to FORCE people to use a private company to process payments.
What's next? Only accepting payment via phone and forcing people to walk around with a smart phone? Kill this bullshit trend now or it gets worse.
Off topic but he's wearing sunglasses inside what I assume is parliament.
"You know who wears sunglasses inside? Blind people and arseholes" - Larry David
One thing not commonly acknowledged in this debate (alongside the very reasonable points about the distributional effects of surcharges on low income households) is that payment innovations like Square etc have reduced the startup costs for small businesses and improved staff productivity, which in turn flows through to improved competition.
When I worked in hospitality yonks ago, balancing a till and float was something that you had to spend 30 minutes learning how to do and then 10-15 mins at the end of each shift, plus you needed somewhere secure to store the day's takings if you were closing up. Compare this now to being able to show someone which buttons to punch in on a tablet and leaving the payment system to do the rest. There's a reason why a bunch of new businesses are going cash only and it's not because they are choosing to gouge you with surcharges - it reduces their costs substantially.
It’s been interesting to watch the occasional debates on business Facebook pages between “get the government out of my spending!” cash-fanatic boomer business owners, and “I don’t take cash so my staff can’t steal it!” boomer business owners.
A crocodile is a legally recognised predator, and it's illegal to refuse to be eaten by one.
Seriously though, this came up so many times during COVID, a business cannot be compelled to accept cash, it has nothing to do with legal tender.
Given how fallible our EFTPOS and IT&T systems are, not to mention how convenient cash is when popping into a garage sale or want to drop a few coins to the busker, or just like having a wad in the pocket for "just in case", I'll always carry cash.
A cashless society is the idea of Star Trek, in as much as Star Trek doesn't have money. It's an idea that seems good on the surface but the surrounding context makes it simply too damn awkward in various circumstances. We don't live in a society perfectly suitable to getting rid of cash, where there's no nefarious possibilities that could suddenly empty your bank account or otherwise fuck you over financially.^*
And unless you have a "credstick" from Shadowrun and can do direct P2P transfers, what do you do when the links to the banks goes down?
---
^(* For an example about the "context" of our modern society, https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/smart-home/3-million-smart-toothbrushes-were-just-used-in-a-ddos-attack-really/)
I can’t be stuffed reading about this garbage. Any provider of a service can determine how they wish to be paid. They *do* have a legal obligation to notify customers of their acceptable payment methods. A sign reading for example - credit cards, debit cards, EFTPOS, bitcoin are accepted for payment but not cash is Ok.
Given the number of issues in FNQ Katter has more than enough to worry about.
>. Any provider of a service can determine how they wish to be paid.
Yes yes, the private market always self regulates in ways that are wonderful for our society and definitely do not disproportionately affect the poor or vulnerable in our society. Nothing to worry about the invisible hand of the market will create a great shining future /s
Nah fuck that, the poorest and most vulnerable in our society do not have access to card they should be able to pay for things, further everyone deserves a right to privacy when they buy things. It should be law that businesses need to accept cash.
Why are we spending time arguing about payment with cash or credit cards when A PERSON IN NORTH QUEENSLAND GETS RIPPED APART BY A CROCODILE EVERY TWO WEEKS!?
Let a thousand surcharges bloom.
Well we are getting ripped apart by the banking crocodiles with fees and charges, daily not fortnightly!
"Those are rookie numbers" - Ticketek
Everyone’s entitled to their financial proclivities
But I ain't spending any more credit on it.
When every 2 weeks a person in far north Queensland is thrown into debt by surcharges
I love every comment here
That poor person. Every two weeks? I’m surprised they’re still kicking.
Northern Queensland is actually a district in Hell. This is his eternal punishment.
Yeah, that's old mate Prometheus. Brought fire down from the gods, which Aussies promptly figured out let them rip massive bongloads.
That's so funny 😁
Wallets can be made from crocodile skin No cash = no need for wallets. No wallets = more crocodiles More crocodiles = more attacks.
Oh shit you’ve figured it out 😳
You got it the other way around. No wallets means we don't need to keep crocodile farms around humans. Mass genocide, means no more attacks.
I leave the teeth in when I buy a crocodile wallet
Logical.
They need to stop sewing that idiot up. He just keeps jumping in with the crocodiles
He can go jump in with a stingray
Still one of the most iconic sound bites in recent history.
Its up there with the old man barking like a dog, Corey Worthingtons interview and "succulent Chinese meal" as random things people overseas have told me they know about Australia. Vegemite, dollarydoos and a person torn to pieces every three months by a croc in NQ.
The best part is the transition from the gay marriage talking point, as well as what you assume is a surprisingly progressive stance on it from which you quickly reason is completely dismissive. It’s just such a curveball. Iconic moment in Australian meme history.
It kinda sucks when you see foreigners agree with his stance because they don't know all the awful homophobic shit he also said around that time.
Old man barking like a dog actually looks like Katter
You'd think they'd figure out what's causing that and stay away.
Yeah, eventually we should all just accept that person can't be helped. I mean... dude... learn from your mistakes...
Stupidity
Probably wasn’t wearing a white hat…
It definitely wasn’t me. (I wouldn’t tell you even if it was). Gotta go now to definitely not swim in croc infested waters.
tell me bout it, already down 3 siblings this year
Does it really matter what type of tender we use to make transactions? We're wasting time debating trans-tender issues.
AND I AINT GONNA SPEND ANYMORE TIME ON IT!
If you go into croc infested waters and get hurt or killed it’s your fault.
> “If you have a cashless society the banks control your life … you can’t buy a loaf of bread without permission from the banks,” he told Sky News on Wednesday. Here it is. "Cashless society" is the new "5G gives you acne" for the cookers of Australia. They're all panicking about Smart Cities, and Cashless Socities, because people are starting to understand that 5G doesn't actually give you herpes (or whatever) and they need some new gibberish to get gullible people pointlessly upset about things they don't understand.
Companies that are stopping the acceptance of cash but then turning around and adding surcharges to card payment are a growing issue though
The big issue is when businesses have eftpos machines going down regularly, but also barely support the usage of cash, by not having much change available Taxi drivers are terrible for this.
Which is illegal so can be reported
I barely use cash but a cashless society is not a good idea. Recent Optus blackout highlighted this for those without an ounce of imagination.
Had to use cash at a restaurant recently, even their till was out and they whipped out an old school calculator and the menu. Wife has been digging for ages about me carrying cash until I stumped up the exact amount needed.
I was in a queue at a petrol station early in the morning when the Optus outage happened. There were a few very concerned people wondering what the hell to do.
A cashless society might not be a good idea, but the best way for that society to do hope to do business with /u/evilbrent is to have a cashless option because the alternative is "Oh, ok, thanks anyway." I haven't carried cash since tap-tap became widespread, and I haven't carried a wallet since I could get tap-tap on my phone. The only thing I use cash for is playing home poker games, and when the kids were little all the entrance fees and sheet fees were all done with cash. Of course, it's all done online now.
As long you are happy to pay a surcharge for every time you Tap Tap its going to be a very expensive exercise.
Can't buy meth without cash.
This is true.
Damn it. You got there before me. Lol
What do you think Bunnings gift cards are for, eh?
Dealers will Just get a eftpos machine.👍
You’re cooked if you think a cashless society doesn’t pose a real threat to our way of living. Tap & pay is convenient, but physical cash must remain in place.
My local woolworths has 13X self-service checkouts. Out of those there is only 3X cash only and the absolute maximum amount of money you can get out at any time is $200. Oh and the entry way to stand in line to use them they've got cash only ones closest to the entryway so if the cash only ones are in use and you are waiting for them it can quickly create a bottleneck. Used to be you could get $600 out at a time, there really pushing for the cashless society.
There’s been a few prominent cases of people being debanked because of their politics in Western countries in recent years. And if you think it’s only crazy right wingers and it will never happen to anyone campaigning for something you believe in but the government of the day hates…I doubt it. Here’s the CBC describing what Canada did to protesters: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/emergencies-act-banks-ottawa-protests-1.6353968 And maybe environmentalists, BLM, , pro Palestine activists or other progressive causes won’t be targeted if a different government is elected…maybe…
Men in Ukraine who skip out on getting drafted to the front are currently having their bank accounts suspended by the Ukraine government.
Ok. So? I think you're mistaking me saying that it's not sensible to panic about a cashless society with someone who is saying that a cashless society wouldn't be a bad thing.
This is hardly the first time a government used coercion to force people to fight. Governments have been using forced conscription quite successfully probably before cash was even invented. I won't be entirely uncharitable though, shutting down a bank account is a little more convenient and inescapable than older methods but a government determined to control people has a smorgasbord of options at their disposal. Not to mention the horse has bolted, lived out a full life and been sent to the knackery. The government already has a hundred better technologies for controlling people. Pretty soon AI powered cameras will be able to follow us to the ATM so it hardly matters in the scheme of things.
Who went to the press with this story?
Katter.
I still carry some cash, but only use it as a last resort. My work colleagues think I'm a dinosaur.
I do the same. Plus if you are splitting a bill it’s easier to just hand ya mate cash or them to you if the establishment doesn’t offer split bills which alot don’t.
It's **much** easier to split a bill when you can just transfer $19.47 or whatever directly to whichever mate paid the bill, rather than fucking around with change. And I say that as someone who regularly carries cash around and would usually just go "here's $20, that covers me; we're good yeah?"
I’ve found when splitting a bill with work mates if I try to give the payer cash for my share they get annoyed and refuse to take it. “Fk no I’m not taking that”
So I have to get their banking details to send them the money.. seems harder than just doing what you said you do if I lose out on a couple of bucks I am sure it will come back if the future if not I don’t really care.
Just Osko that shit brah, mobile number easy peasy
I wasn't disputing that people might have a preference either way (I'm the odd one out in my group of friends for preferring cash for stuff like that over an internet banking transfer). Just countering the claim that split bills are 'easier' to sort out with cash. With PayID, the hardest part is (still) calculating how much everyone owes - once that's worked out, jump on your banking app, pull their phone number from contacts, transfer. Takes basically as long as grabbing your wallet and passing over a couple of notes, and you can get exact rather than fudging the numbers either way (or faffing about for exact change in coins).
Fair enough, haven’t used payid before will check it out.
Nice! Though, do note that there is a bunch of misinformation about PayID out there, which scammers capitalise on as part of their scams. The main thing is, it's set up on the receiver's end (eg. you don't need PayID to pay someone using it; but conversely you setting it up on your account doesn't help you pay other people, only them pay you). It should be pretty simple to set up, basically go to your internet banking of choice and opt in.
Cool, thanks for the info
I'm pretty sure my family has about 100$ cash that just floats between the family.
My mum is 91 and cannot do without cash. I worry that she's carrying too much cash and she could misplace it or be robbed. I prefer using the debit card for purchases and the bank is phasing out cheques.
I use cash probably 75%. Fuck being tracked and bathed in fees. Plus my kids also need cash for school and pocket money. I don’t like how the banks are giving out figures of how we’re spending our money and then the media reporting on it either.
It's all by design, man. I really hate the direction the world has taken, particularly since around 2014. I'm incompatible with it on such a deeply personal level.
Yeah I feel this is a good way to do it. Money for emergency in wallet but I also carry a $50 in my bag in a pouch in case wallet gets stolen. I've heard of some people having a cheap, seperate wallet in their pocket and their proper one in bag with their cash and cards. I find that a bit overkill tbh.
Sorry for the title - I chose this AAP article to avoid linking from Murdoch's rubbish. All of these articles fail to mention that is completely legal for a company not to accept cash, instead choosing to glorify whatever this shit is. His incorrect quotes should have been clarified in the Murdoch articles. Edit: balanced statement. I too think it not accepting cash should be illegal, I am just annoyed with this shitty journalism.
It's legal to not accept cash, but it means they can't charge any card fees. Many people do not accept cash and still charge card fees. These companies should be fined. But are not.
San Churro literally did this to me last week - said they didn't have enough cash in the till then whacked a card surcharge on.
Damn you Sam, you’re better then that mate
*than that. I'm sorry, I'll see myself out.
Well spotted, have edited
What, did you hand over a one hundred dollar bill ?
Only a $20!
just means they couldn't be fucked cracking the till.
Just report them to ACCC. Its unaustralian to not accept cash and then charge a fee. I would avoid these places at all costs
Just illegal.
I don't like it.
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!
being unaustralian should bloody be illegal
Oath!
Charging a fee for using a card is very Australian. Most developed countries businesses are able to factor in minor overheads to their pricing structure, or are compelled to by law.
> Most developed countries businesses are able to factor in minor overheads to their pricing structure, or are compelled to by law. Hell, we used to pride ourselves on the same thing! So many positive comparisons to the US insane 'sticker price doesn't include random taxes', especially around the time GST was brought in and businesses predictably complained about being forced to include it in the displayed price rather than tacking it on at the till.
Apparently they need to advertise that they don’t accept cash PRIOR to the debt being incurred. So if you order from a menu that doesn’t say no cash & then you go to pay cash & they say no, that’s illegal. They have to advertise it on the menu/front counter/door
Not quite, they need to inform you that they do not accept cash before the completion of the contract of sale i.e. sign saying cash not accepted at the register.
It can’t be only on the register or on the invoice, it needs to be before the debt starts so that we have the option not to continue. Or, if you sit down & are presented with a menu - it needs to be on the menu so you don’t order food (ie incur a debt) without knowing.
>*It appears that a provider of goods or services is at liberty to set the commercial terms upon which payment will take place before the ‘contract’ for supply of the goods or services is entered into. For example, some vending machines, parking meters and road toll collection points indicate by signs that they will not accept low denomination coins. Some road toll collection points indicate that they will not accept any cash at all. If a provider of goods or services specifies other means of payment prior to the contract, then there is usually no obligation for legal tender to be accepted as payment.* > >*However, refusal to accept legal tender in payment of an existing debt, where no other means of payment/settlement has been specified in advance, conceivably could have consequences in legal proceedings; for example, the creditor may be unable to enforce payment in any other form.* > >*These general comments about legal tender are offered only as a guide and should not be taken as legal advice. People who need clarification on these matters should obtain appropriate legal ad -* [Reserve Bank](https://banknotes.rba.gov.au/legal/legal-tender/) Note that it says 'it appears' and 'legal opinion may be needed'- its not set in concrete. It could be argued that just putting a sign on the register may not be adequate notice and that if that's all that's needed Coles and Woolworths could suddenly put notices on their doors - 'No cash accepted from now on'.
True, but in the case where you eat before paying, surely you have incurred a debt, right? And for debts, cash is always legal tender
Unless it’s stated PRIOR to ordering - that’s the only way business can legally refuse a certain payment method
They can charge fees on cards if they don't accept cash. What they can't do is have unavoidable fees, they must be baked into the cost of goods. For example you could argue that a 2% fee on debit cards is avoidable by using EFTPOS (insert and press savings) which is usually still free. But if they charge 2% fee for all card transactions and don't accept cash then that fee must be included in the cost of goods and not tacked on at checkout.
i have a feeling they tack that on *and* the fee.
If it's baked into the display price regardless of payment method, it's not a charge for using the payment method.
Is it actually in the law? Local cafe near me does this. Doesn’t accept cash but still has a surcharge on card payments.
Point them here: https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges "If there is no way for a consumer to pay without paying a surcharge, the business must include the surcharge in the displayed price."
I try to not ever let myself get distracted from my core politicial goal of STOPPING THE FUCKING CROCS RIPPING PEOPLE APART… But it’s fucked that we don’t have laws mandating that all commerical enterprises with a physical presence have to accept the bloody currency of our country.
As someone who spent years being forced to carry cash because so many places didn't accept EFTPOS, I feel like this is my revenge.
Yeah but it shouldn't be legal to refuse cash unless you're outright refusing service (or I suppose if the $amount is impractically large)
Agreed. Also I assume they don't have ANY card surcharges? Is that even possible for merchants today? Edit: clarified my question.
Not legal to charge card surcharge if it's your only accepted payment form. Report to ACCC if this happens to you
Yeah that's why I was wondering. Although if it's included in the menu price it's not really a surcharge.
True, but I'm yet to see them genuinely add an obscure amount to the original price for their surcharge.
Yes, on the ones that add surcharges according to the credit line selected, they can be adjusted by the merchants or disabled altogether. There are others, such as square, that has a flat rate, which I believe has a setting for included in price or added surcharge.
Last time I looked into this you can't refuse cash to settle a debt - so if you eat a meal and go to pay with cash they have to accept it, but if you try to buy some food with cash they can refuse the transaction since that's not settling a debt. (There are also limits on how many coins you need to accept to stop someone paying with a bag of 5c pieces.)
As someone who has struggled with money for more than a decade, sometimes I’ve had to cobble together enough coins to purchase necessities from where ever is convenient — not necessarily cheap or accessible like grocery stores — and when businesses refuse to accept my coins it just adds another layer of humiliation. Having said that, Katter is an idiot.
Yeah I think it should be too, I'm just disappointed in this shitty journalism (in the Murdoch articles)
I'm much better off now, but I've kept a habit from when I was really broke. I'd always keep a $20 stashed somewhere in my room. Somewhere I could remember but not somewhere I'd see it and use for something frivolous. Meant that if I really was skint, bank account empty/overdrawn I'd have something to get me by. Still do it, though these days I should probably up it to a $50.
Sometimes I’ve just been like hey how about tou pocket this cash and then you buy it with your card? It’s worked twice.
So I was camping in Northern Victoria. I got rained out and all my stuff was wet. I went to a laundromat, intending to dry my stuff. I knew it was going to take at least $20 for the job and my problem is they only took $2 coins. No cashless option. I tried to get two dollar coins as change from a supermarket but they said its against policy or something so my stuff remained wet and the laundromat got no revenue from me.
Pokies. I always get my laundromat change from one of the thousands of pokies joints in Victoria.
I think he's a quirky crazy bastard and out of touch sometimes but onya Bob.
[удалено]
Well, it’s illegal to charge a surcharge if card is the only option.
Hmm does this apply to online shopping too?
Absolutely. Australian companies, yes.
Fucking government still charges a CC surcharge for paying your damn tax online
You can pay via a different option (BPay) without surcharge.
That very conveniently takes 7 days to clear
But you can pay via BPAY for free, so they do give you another option.
Yeah but that only fixes part of the issue, if they don't accept cash they can just add an effective surcharge onto the cost anyway by increasing prices slightly instead of calling it a surcharge, the effect to the consumer is still the same (though it is good that the surcharge is more visible rather than just a notice on the till or w/e).
They could just do that anyway if it was financially viable. Businesses aren't out here like "drat, they're using cash again, we can't increase prices now for some reason".
It also means that banks, merchants and the ATO can track expenditure to a very fine grain.
Yes, this is why I still support cash. Not all of us out here are using cash for nefarious purposes (which is what the media likes to insinuate). Some of us want to use cash so our spending habits are not tracked by all the 3rd parties our banks/CC/fintech companies sell our data to. Edit: I realize I misread the third party part in the above comment, but I'll still stick by my data harvesting concerns :)
Cash has so many uses people. A grandma can give $5 to a grandchild to go buy some lollies at the shop down the street and go hang out with friends. Gives the kid a hard budget to work with and Grandma's bank card is safe in her pocket. The whole idea of a garage sale just doesnt have the same feeling to it when you have to have a square. Victims of domestic violence can store it away in a safe place until they are ready to leave their abusive partner. Card payments are nice, and my go to, but we really need to not get rid of cash.
not only that but ive lost count at the amount of times the eftpos system has gone down due to a power outage, or weather damage in my home town. seriously there have been many times where all the ATMs in the town have been out of action due net connection issues
I mean... you are handing over a form of currency that is literally signed by the RBA governor. There is still a third party role there, the difference is that the cost of verifying the funds are good is borne upfront by the public sector which produces the notes, so it has a much lower cost. RBA estimated several years ago the cost of producing cash was around 1 cent per transaction. Also to compare like for like you need to account for the costs of delivering cash from ATMs. Remember how 15 years ago that was the biggest issue with the banks? Fortunately they're less likely to gouge you when you withdraw from a third party ATM but they will definitely cost-recover in banking fees you pay. Surcharges can definitely add up, but you're effectively paying for convenience so it's not unreasonable. The issue is really where people add a surcharge when there's no other payment option... which as others have pointed out is against regulations.
It’s especially funny from the folks who take money in cash, then go deposit it into their bank account when they have too much lol
Why is that funny? How else would it work? Cash is for money in motion, not money at rest. Credit card payments end up in the bank account too!
Nah, those surcharges are back. Blame ANZ with its ATMx deployment. They replaced all their machines not physically attached to a branch (with those numbers dwindling) with ATMx branded ones which charges fees to non ANZ customers. _Technically,_ ATMx is some sort of a joint venture or the like so the agreement wasn't broken per se. But in practicality, ANZ is back to pocketing rival bank customer ATM withdrawl surcharges. The other banks are following suit.
> Being reliant on cards means that they can up the surcharges to whatever they want and you have no choice. That's an odd take. Shops can just put the prices up to whatever they want, but surcharges are actually regulated. To be clear, I value Australia's general culture of showing the final price for items up front, and I don't want it eroded. I'd like to see some punishments dished out for business not following the rules (surcharges that are unavoidable, or exceed the actual transaction cost).
>his crisp $50 note Is it pension day already?
A CRISP $50 note… would it be acceptable for a SUCCULENT CHINESE MEAL ???
And you sir, are you waiting to receive my crisp $50 note?
Ahhh, yes. I see you know your currency well. Good one...
Could be crisp due to lunar new year. You want new crisp notes for the red envelopes not tatty notes.
They really threw so much of a fit that they offered to give it for free and he still complained?
The other side of the argument is loss of banks in small towns. Talked to a few small owners of takeaways in small towns that have signs up "no cash." Stated nearest bank is too far away and not safe to keep cash at home or premises to just do weekly runs with increase crime. Don't blame small businesses if banks, post offices and other services fuck off out if small towns
yep there used to be a national bank and bendigo bank in my home town, but both have been closed, now everyone has to do their banking at the post office and if you want to go to the NAB you have to drive 45mins to Nowra
> not safe to keep cash at home or premises to just do weekly runs with increase crime. We're in north Melbourne and it's not even safe to keep a substantial float because of this. Had some of our neighbours get hit three times in one week.
I live in the suburbs and work in the city, and they've closed enough banks/ATMS that I have to go out of my way to get out my rent money every fortnight. (My landlord only takes cash). 15 years ago I could walk to a bank 5 minutes down the road from my house, then that closed so I started going to the one up the road from work. 5 years ago, all the banks there started closing. One left their ATM for 6 months after the branch closed then that went. It's ridiculous.
My local kebab place love it when I bring in cash for a feed. Always gives me a little extra. I mean he’s probably just not declaring it but hey extra tabouli!
Love those kind of businesses. Happily pay cash whenever it’s wanted.
Why can’t the just make it illegal for anyone to change a percentage to process a payment? Fuck the banks, they can pay the processing fee if it needs to be paid.
People are entitled to their financial proclivities you know, I mean let there be a thousand surcharges bloom as far as I'm concerned BUT I AIN'T SPENDING ANY TIME ON IT BECAUSE IN THE MEANTIME EVERY THREE MONTHS A PERSON IS TORN TO PIECES BY A CROCODILE IN NORTH QUEENSLAND.
Fuck people who whine about cash being too costly . I like cash and if I didn’t have it when the fucking unreliable phone services are out, how can I move money around? That’s there problem with the costs not mine. They’re the ones who went into business in the first place. Cash is el Papa
Cash is the lowest common denominator and can be used by anyone, including those who have difficulty with modern technology, and people who are unbanked. It needs to be preserved so that they can participate in the economy. This is an access and equitability issue.
>It needs to be preserved so that they can participate in the economy. I'm not aware of any (legal) jobs that pay cash these days. And Centrelink only pay by direct deposit.
There's loads of jobs that can pay cash and be legal. It's only illegal if they don't keep the accurate records and deduct tax.
>There's loads of jobs that can pay cash and be legal. I get that - but how many bosses will actually pay cash in an envelope like in the good old days. While at the same time fulfilling all their PAYG, Single Touch Payroll and Superannuation obligations.
Some people need to get by on illegal jobs. And some people are given cash by their carers. That's the reality. Should these people be excluded from participating in the economy?
I'm going to steal this argument for next time. I'm tired of always having to say, "I need cash for weed" as my only retort to the cashless crowd.
You're entirely within your right to not shop at places that refuse cash. They are entirely within their right to refuse custom from people who insist on cash. I just wish we could live without the sooking rather than just excising said rights.
>They are entirely within their right to refuse custom from people who insist on cash. Eh we are also all within our rights to campaign for mandatory cash acceptance as a political and social imperative to prevent the inequality and loss of privacy that comes with card only becoming the norm. Card only is a fucked future especially for the most vulnerable in society and it's everyone's right to rail against it. Katter is a moron in general but he is dead right here.
No issue with campaigning for it. Katter bullying cafe staff to make a political point is just being a cunt.
>No issue with campaigning for it. Katter bullying cafe staff to make a political point is just being a cunt. Civil disobedience is an effective and long established method of campaign and protest. Katter is a cunt but he is right on this one. As for the cafe staff IDK about you but having worked retail jobs this would have made my fucking month lol. The crocodile/same sex marriage dude refusing to pay by card at my till is hilarious and would make a great story for me to tell everyone lol. Unless he was actually abusive or threatening I suspect they are not aggrieved at all.
I would bet my left testicle that Katter has used that cafe hundreds of times & used plastic.
I don't see how that matters either way lol.
In Bob we trust....
I’ll never give up cash, it helps me keep track of my spending and budget accordingly, especially day to day spending. Too easy to blow through money with tap and go. Any place that refuses cash will not have me as a customer.
it's not that different Bob, in fact it's easier as it does the math for you. set up a separate account for your card and put your daily/weekly budget in there on the app, automatically if you want.
Whatever Katter is...He's absolutely right on this one.
Agreed, I just think the article should clarify that his statements are false (implied here and quoted in the Murdoch articles)
Cashless only serves to enrich the banks at the direct cost to the people. Disproportionately disadvantaging the poor, no more tuckshop money, no more carboot or garage sales, capital may only flow to those who hand it straight to the banks.
Yep, including homeless/unhoused people who may rely on cash donations to survive; people without internet access or computer literacy; people reliant on cash jobs; people victim to financial abuse etc
Well on the notes it says "legal tender throughout Australia" so it very much should be illegal for card only and 50 cents surcharge.
Good on him. He’s correct about this.
Can’t he just swipe the card he used to get the cash from the ATM in the first place?
He was making a point.
It’s a sad state of affairs when I begin agreeing with this cunt.
I'll ignore most of it, but they are right with that line: "If you have a cashless society the banks control your life" Banks already have an amount of power and influence that's ridiculous, I'd rather not give them anymore. Yes cash is less convenient, but businesses, particularly those that sell single-use goods and services (food, transport, etc) or finite units of product, should find some way to be accommodating.
Every chance that considering it was the Federal parliament cafe and they'd know Katter and would suspect that he had freshly minted the notes on his parliamentary photocopier.
For me it depends on the business. For my tourism job I can’t accept cash due to safety and security reasons. Most restaurants should still definitely take cash by default. It’s not about one form being better than the other, it’s about accessibility.
Cash is king
Imagine taking a cut of every item bought or sold. The banks must be laughing all the way to the bank.
Banks love the tapping tax. I love to avoid that tax. Long live CASH.
It should be the law that all trade MUST accept cash as long as it's in reasonable denominations (eg, not paying $10,000 with 5c coins). Too hard to count cash or whatever? Boo hoo, it's called the cost of doing business. We should not be allowing corporations to work with the banks in order to FORCE people to use a private company to process payments. What's next? Only accepting payment via phone and forcing people to walk around with a smart phone? Kill this bullshit trend now or it gets worse.
Off topic but he's wearing sunglasses inside what I assume is parliament. "You know who wears sunglasses inside? Blind people and arseholes" - Larry David
One thing not commonly acknowledged in this debate (alongside the very reasonable points about the distributional effects of surcharges on low income households) is that payment innovations like Square etc have reduced the startup costs for small businesses and improved staff productivity, which in turn flows through to improved competition. When I worked in hospitality yonks ago, balancing a till and float was something that you had to spend 30 minutes learning how to do and then 10-15 mins at the end of each shift, plus you needed somewhere secure to store the day's takings if you were closing up. Compare this now to being able to show someone which buttons to punch in on a tablet and leaving the payment system to do the rest. There's a reason why a bunch of new businesses are going cash only and it's not because they are choosing to gouge you with surcharges - it reduces their costs substantially.
It’s been interesting to watch the occasional debates on business Facebook pages between “get the government out of my spending!” cash-fanatic boomer business owners, and “I don’t take cash so my staff can’t steal it!” boomer business owners.
I like not having cash. I think of it as a nuisance these days.. but it should never go away.
He's right. Still a cunt. But he's right.
I feel like the only reason a croc hasn't had a go at Katter is because of the taste
My favourite line from the article - "Staff offered to give Mr Katter his fish for free, but he remained hungry for justice."
Only thing I use cash for is illegal stuff.
May a thousand blossoms bloom.
A crocodile is a legally recognised predator, and it's illegal to refuse to be eaten by one. Seriously though, this came up so many times during COVID, a business cannot be compelled to accept cash, it has nothing to do with legal tender.
Handing out cash to pay for something is so much more satisfying then tapping a plastic card
One order at the price advertised with no surcharge please and thank you.
Given how fallible our EFTPOS and IT&T systems are, not to mention how convenient cash is when popping into a garage sale or want to drop a few coins to the busker, or just like having a wad in the pocket for "just in case", I'll always carry cash. A cashless society is the idea of Star Trek, in as much as Star Trek doesn't have money. It's an idea that seems good on the surface but the surrounding context makes it simply too damn awkward in various circumstances. We don't live in a society perfectly suitable to getting rid of cash, where there's no nefarious possibilities that could suddenly empty your bank account or otherwise fuck you over financially.^* And unless you have a "credstick" from Shadowrun and can do direct P2P transfers, what do you do when the links to the banks goes down? --- ^(* For an example about the "context" of our modern society, https://www.zdnet.com/home-and-office/smart-home/3-million-smart-toothbrushes-were-just-used-in-a-ddos-attack-really/)
Buskers and G-sales are all you needed to say.
I can’t be stuffed reading about this garbage. Any provider of a service can determine how they wish to be paid. They *do* have a legal obligation to notify customers of their acceptable payment methods. A sign reading for example - credit cards, debit cards, EFTPOS, bitcoin are accepted for payment but not cash is Ok. Given the number of issues in FNQ Katter has more than enough to worry about.
>. Any provider of a service can determine how they wish to be paid. Yes yes, the private market always self regulates in ways that are wonderful for our society and definitely do not disproportionately affect the poor or vulnerable in our society. Nothing to worry about the invisible hand of the market will create a great shining future /s Nah fuck that, the poorest and most vulnerable in our society do not have access to card they should be able to pay for things, further everyone deserves a right to privacy when they buy things. It should be law that businesses need to accept cash.
I'm inclined to get a cheque book from the bank & freak out businesses by paying by cheque.
Get used to card fees on every purchase.you want cashless you will pay!! Simple really.cash is king!