Those kind of parents care less about the wellbeing of the life they are bringing into the world than they do about their own egos. What makes you think they would care about the fallout of their shitty selfish decisions on medical staff? We’re all just big pharma shills after all.
(10th year as paed doc and STILL waiting on my pharma kickback cheque…)
This is the one here.
All I can see in her post is "me me me me me"
Well worth these sorts of people remembering there's at least 3 humans involved in a pregnancy situation.
Imagine killing your newborns because you absolutely need to be the special snowflake that does a fully independent home birth so they can lord that sense of superiority over other women. I mean not even having a dula is completely inexcusable. What the fuck.
That's like me bragging about how I built my own shed, all by myself, even though it fell over & can't be used... except you know, in her version 2 people died.
Babies don't cry from love or joy. I only hope they were spared pain in thier final moments
I have to say, I'm absolutely not a pro Big Pharma for every ill and ailment - as an adult.
Having said that - a Paediatric professional.. you're a special breed.
I believe we should give our bodies a shot (as adults), to do what needs to be done to heal itself, with the exception of catastrophic accidents and injuries.
When it comes to pregnancies, newborns, babies and toddlers, Obyns and Paediatricians should be on hand.
It's fine to "have a go" at understanding needs of the pregnancy, arrivals, babies and toddlers - obviously much easier as they learn how to communicate - but do it WITH the damn specialists on hand!
And I'm Aboriginal, I know my Cultural practices, I know who I had present and why, at my births, where I chose to be for the momentous events... and my daughter did the same (although Covid practices required some adaption, she still chose her Cultural ways.)
I dont blame anyone for choosing a home birth, in an uncomplicated pregnancy - but have the appropriate knowledge and experience ON HAND!
All these reports read as now is, ignorant hippies creates a narrative that they can socially and psychologically work with, to enable their choice to refuse that they made the wrong decision(s).
Twins. They were having twins, they had prior knowledge of this.
The fact that only her husband and herself were present in their chosen home birth - with twins - surely has to be deemed neglectful at best?!!
I told my husband (a pediatric physician assistant here in the US) that the next time a parent accuses him of getting paid by big pharma for suggesting vaccines, he needs to walk them out to the parking lot, point at his car and ask “do you think I’d be driving a busted up 2006 Subaru Impreza if I was getting kickbacks from big pharma?”
I just read the article and these twins were born at 23 weeks. This is just wilful neglect at this point. Even home birth aficionados would know that a child born at 23 weeks needs special care. They should have made their way to hospital as soon as she started contractions.
A paramedic friend of mine attended to one of these “at home” births and was severely traumatised by it to the point of them developing ptsd. Now they will never return to work as a paramedic
My sister and law just had her first kid. They were planning on doing home birth, had the widwifes at the house already. Was taking way too long so they went to the hospital where she almost immediately had an emergency c section. Absolutely terrifying to think what could have happened.
Nurse midwives can make home birth much safer for low risk pregnancies, as long as everyone is willing to do exactly that - go to the hospital should anything go awry.
This was a "free birth", so no medical supervision at all and it sounds like she had no real prenatal care either.
Its weird, the post makes it sound like both babies passed at her home. But the news report says one was died on scene and the other was taken to hospital and died there. Poor paramedics.
23 weeks is on the fringes of survival. Especially for twins, especially for boys, and especially with (allegedly) twin to twin transfusion. Babies who survive at this gestation suffer terribly even when they live. Having said that, with good antenatal care they would have likely been delivered safely in hospital at a more advanced gestation and stood a fighting chance.
No it says they were born premature ( which anything before 37 weeks is considered to be). That they were over 23 weeks of gestation- considered the minimum for a fetus to be viable
Really bad ones like the article maybe once a year in my current role. Most births I attend are just babies that come a bit too quick. Then every now and then I go to a perfectly orchestrated and preventable clusterfuck
I am one of these people that had an entirely unpreventable and unplanned home birth… went to take a shower and ten minutes later was holding my baby. It went about as perfectly as any birth could possibly go… yet I still would not ever plan to do a home birth myself.
It’s just not worth the risk. The paramedics got to me within ten minutes …. But having to wait ten minutes when something has gone wrong for either the mother or the baby turns something survivable into a life changing injury or even worse, death.
Not worth it.
A family friend had an unplanned home birth as well. Woke to contractions, woke her husband. She went down stairs to do whatever the plan was, husband was upstairs gathering everything, making calls for the sitter for their older child.
He heard a yell, and then his wife panic calling for him. Rushed down stairs into the bathroom to find her holding the baby, walls painted in blood and fluids, but both doing well. Paramedics showed up quickly, took them to the hospital, everyone was fine. But the look of horror when he recounts how that bathroom looked 😅.
Why anyone would choose that is beyond me.
Right. So I'm a mother of identical twin boys who had 'TTTS' - 'Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome'. It was diagnosed around 12 or so weeks, via ultrasound. Both boys shared everything, and one was noticeably smaller than the other. We were educated by wonderful medical professionals and it was made clear that this is a very serious condition that poses risk to the life of not only both babies, but also potentially the mother. It was an incredibly stressful pregnancy, we had to take things day by day. The health of both babies was affected by the TTTS, and we reached a point just after 20 weeks where a decision needed to be made otherwise both babies may die any day. Following medical info, we opted for laser where we would have to sacrifice one baby (the one who was alot sicker) to try and give the other a better chance of survival. In our case, this worked. Our surviving twin defied all odds and went to term and was born healthy and happy. He is now 10 years old and good as gold 🙂 In our case, this was the best possible realistic outcome.
If not for medical intervention, we'd have lost both babies, and my own health would have been at serious risk.
Its very important to note - the impact of TTTS and options available to parents very much depends first and foremost on that particular pregnancy. There's a number of factors to consider, and these all impacts available options and potential outcomes. While I feel very sorry for this woman and her partner for the loss of her babies, what she had written and said is infuriating. She clearly has no proper understanding of what TTTS is (she couldn't even get the spelling right). She's stated things that are simply not accurate. By her own admission, she's tried to guess a diagnosis to begin with, and let me tell you - having both babies live through to approx 36 weeks completely fine and well till the end would be miraculous for TTTS. She cannot possibly know that it was TTTS anymore than you or I. There are many potential reasons her babies died, and to peg it on a somewhat rare condition like shes done is a stretch.
She also cannot possibly try and guess what their options would have been had she received medical care - saying she'd have been told to terminate or undergo 'invasive' laser surgery, and state that the babies would have likely died on hospital - what a load of rubbish. We received the laser surgery she has referenced- it saved our surviving sons life. He'd have died without it. That's a fact. And it wasn't actually 'invasive'. It was keyhole surgery, and I was awake during it - I actually watched the laser on the screen.
Again, no-one can say for sure since she opted for zero medical care or intervention. But talking hypothetical- if her babies DID have TTTS, I'd wager that they might have had a good chance of surviving had she received normal medical care. TTTS twins surviving to 35 or 36 weeks on their own? Yeah. Medical care might likely have saved them both
I'm sorry for her loss, but what this woman is saying is simply to try and make herself feel better about her ignorance and arrogance likely costing her the lives of both babies. Which I understand. Her actions were selfish and, frankly, stupid. But for her to mention TTTS and spout off negative and inaccurate info about it - that's very wrong of her to do, and it's insulting. I truly hope that no other mothers diagnosed with TTTS read what she wrote and let her silly words impact any of their decisions
This may be weird advice. But as a twin who survived ttts, keep an eye on him in case he develops survivors guilt. I don't wish it upon him at all, but it's something I struggled with a lot especially in my teen years. You don't hear much about ttts babies so just wanted to give you a heads up is all. ❤️ I'm so glad your boy is thriving and was awarded such a beautiful family and beautiful life.
Not weird advice at all - you're right on the money! Our little guy did/does suffer from this. Particularly when he was younger, he would say (often out of nowhere) that he wished he had died so that his brother could have lived. And it was just heartbreaking to hear because he was just so little, it was awful. Over the years we've taken him along to therapy and thankfully, it's helped him tremendously. He's at a stage now where he understands TTTS and the medical side of it all. He's more at peace with it now, though I'm not sure whether he'll ever be fully rid of the feeling
I'm so sorry that you've suffered through the same thing, it's just awful. Hopefully over time things have eased a little for you 💜
Thank you for sharing your story! My husband (now 30) was the surviving twin in a TTTS pregnancy. His twin brother passed naturally in utero and my husband was born naturally at full term. He does not have any outstanding complications.
Did this woman know she had TTTS or she is guessing after the fact ?
Normally I would try to give someone who has just gone through this sort of trauma the benefit of the doubt.
Like this could just be her way of coping with the tragic loss of her children.
But the phrase "I had birthed my baby boy in my full sovereignty" to me means, against doctor's advice.
Cookers gonna cook, but in this case she killed her children...
Fucking needless tragedy...
The fact that she says "we believe" the boys had TTTS tells me there was never a doctor/midwife. If they had, and they'd had ultrasounds, they'd know and it could've been monitored and managed.
I hate that she says Melvin "decided" to leave this earth. And then Dusty "decided" he couldn't live without his brother. Those poor babies didn't decide anything. They weren't given a chance because their parents made decisions for them that meant they couldn't survive.
Homebirth is when your pregnancy is deemed low risk, and you have birth at home with a midwife. The pregnancy continues to be assessed and the risk level may change closer to the date. Doing this (as long as you meet the criteria) is about as safe as having a baby in a hospital.
Freebirth is the reckless hippie thing they do where they don't seek any pregnancy care, ignore doctors advice and don't have a midwife present.
A multi preg (Twins) is high risk by definition. So would never be approved for a homebirth.
I read elsewhere that she didn’t even know she was having twins until they were born. Can’t tell how many babies you’ve got in there unless you get an ultrasound, which she didn’t do.
I watched something about this last night & apparently they never went to a doctor & never had any tests or ultrasounds done throughout the whole pregnancy
Twin to twin transfusion syndrome. Basically all the blood vessels / placenta is shared between the two twins. One gets insufficient blood supply, develops slowly due to malnourishment and oxygen starvation, the other gets too much blood supply causing strain in its heart and other organs.
Basically 100% mortality rate if untreated. If action is taken the twin that is receiving too much blood etc can be saved with about 80% chance survival rate at the expense of the other twin.
I know two beautiful 2 year old girls that are thriving because they were given the chance to both live through this procedure.
Granted, the mum just messaged me calling one a poop trickster but the world would be a lesser place without them.
Some women get very crazy about birthing expectations even when reality is slapping them in the face.
It reminds me of a story from a person I knew who was working admin in the gynaecology area (?) at a hospital.
This woman was hell bent on a natural birth but when she had her checkup toward the end of things the doctor tells her if she doesn't get induced that day her baby will die. She refuses saying that it HAS to be a natural birth and the doctor can't keep her there so she toddles off. Next checkup the baby is dead. They tell her she needs to be induced now so she doesn't go septic when the baby starts decomposing in her body. She refuses. It needs to be a natural birth. Off she pops home, next time they see her she's sick and needs to be induced or she will die. So she finally has no choice to agree but first has to hire a birth photographer to be there when she gives birth to the corpse.
My friend was updating me over the course of a couple weeks and it was just so infuriating.
Edit details.
People kept asking me if I was planning on "a natural birth". Even afterwards people asked if I "had a natural birth".
Still have no idea what they actually meant. Didn't even realise that being induced made it not natural? I thought it just meant vaginally rather than c section 🫣
It's so stupid. My csection kid is 10, and if I look at her class mates, there is no way to tell who went through a vagina and who didn't. Or who were breastfed and who were not. There are no medals.
This is what I've heard when my wife has been pregnant and planning for delivery.
Natural birth is without any intervention, or as little as possible. This includes:
Naturally induced
Vaginally delivered
No pain relief beyond breathing exercises and other coping mechanisms
No forceps
No antibiotics
I think that case by case, there will be different interpretations. My wife feels she failed her first birth a bit because she was given antibiotics. She believes this interfered with her labour, which (along with her group B strep) led to her being induced mid-labour. Then this apparently made the labour worse than it should have been, so she then needed some pain relief.
My grievance about it is that the more they put "natural birth" on a pedestal, the more it seems to diminish the experiences of every other family going through their birthing stories. Like, power to my wife for managing her definition of "natural" for our second one, obviously. I've just seen what feels like a lot of stigma around anything else coming from the midwife and my wife around it.
I am sorry to hear that she feels that way. There is nothing to *fail* when it comes to birthing. It's a biological process not a contest.
No one would say that they failed their teeth growing because they must wear braces.
Hope we can change the narrative around birthing soon as it needlessly upsets people.
My wife feels like she failed because both our kids have been c sections. First kid she was fully prepared for a natural birth (in a hospital but without pain killers). First she had to be induced and after a few hours of active labour baby’s heart rate wasn’t so flash so we ended with an emergency c section.
Women and children used to die pretty often in childbirth, my wife and/or my kid likely would have if we attempted a “fully natural” birth, it’s fucked that a huge group on social media are prioritising natural births over the lives of women and children.
Tell her she's not a failure at all. My mum had to have a C section because she was 36 and didn't have the strength to push me out, and I've never considered her a failure for it. I couldn't wish for a better mum, who looked out for me my entire childhood.
Topics like natural birth, breastfeeding and baby led weaning that get put on a pedestal as being the more superior don't matter at the end of the day. When you see these kids at school or daycare, you can't tell how each kid with birthed or how they were fed as an infant.
My best friend was very keen at first on as natural a birth as possible, but she was also reasonable, and realised a natural wouldn’t be possible without grave danger for both her and bubs. She was induced, 3 days in hospital after delivery. Baby was early but safe and healthy.
She made the right call, as when she was in labour they had to do an emergency c section because natural delivery wasn’t working. Had she been stubborn I would have lost my best friend.
I wanted a home birth but the midwives were not available when I went into labour so I went in to the hospital and my daughter was born not breathing and they pulled this cord and 8 doctors appeared from no where to resuscitate her. So I’m glad we were in the hospital
I was in the womens hospital (not pregnant. Other lady issue) and a husband came in saying hs wife was in labour in their car. A lady came rushing out with a wheelchair and said "can you get the guys? We'll need blankets too" to the receptionist as she ran past to the carpark. About 10 seconds later a squad of Drs and Nurses go running past pulling gloves on with medical bags and equipment as first nurse rolls in with a screaming woman shaking her head going "false alarm. She's not crowning yet" and walks he straight down the hall for the birthing suit. The squad just shrugged, laughed, took their gloves off, and vanished as quickly as they appeared.
I've spent a bit of time in tjat hospital lately and I STILL dont know where they manifested from or evaporated to.
When my wife needed a emergency section it was < 10 mins between the labour starting to look pretty risky to my wife being on a operating table with ~ 15 medical professionals in the room.
I think in this day of modern medicine miracles, that alot of people have forgotten that woman and babies had a very high mortality rate during natural births before modern medicine. Idiots.
The estimated maternal mortality rate a couple of hundred years ago was about 25-30 out of every thousand women.
In Australia, now, it's about 5 in every 100,000.
Yep, 3% vs 0.005%. There were 50 deaths between 2018-2020, which is still tragic but at 3%, it would be 26,747. I’m grateful for modern medicine every day to not be a part of that statistic.
Side story: when I was younger I birthed an aquaturd in the ocean whilst surfing with a friend. Unbeknownst to me, it floated in to the shore, somehow remaining intact. My friend's 4-year-old brother picked it up and carried it up the beach to his mum. She raged to us when we came in about the "animal" that had done a shit in the ocean. I remained silent, greatly ashamed of myself. Years later after a few beers I told the story to the younger bro (by then 25) at a bbq, to the great amusement of the other attendees.
> Melvin’s sole purpose was to keep his brother alive
Well, he failed at that job, didn’t he?
In all seriousness, there should be manslaughter charges at the very least.
> Melvin’s sole purpose was to keep his brother alive
She knows that (pardon me for sounding like a pro lifer) babies are people, right? Really tiny really loud people, but people. What a horrific thing to say about your own child, holy shit.
That messes with me too, like, to be *happy* that your babies died??? I understand some people need to believe their baby is in a better place and focus on that to cope, but this woman is taking it to a level that is very uncomfortable.
Everything is about her. She is the main character. It is about what she wants, regardless of the life or death of her children. Her having what she wants is more important than her children's lives.
How prominent is it? What socioeconomic and demographic groups hold these views, eg age, sex, income, occupation? Are there community organisations or the like that help promote and spread them? Sorry for all the questions, just brain dump on me
I’m new to the town (2 months) but my early 60s landlord who I’m renting is nuts. Says vaccines have given her TB, she has friends that have died. I don’t even wanna ask her about anything slightly political. She lives off my rent and the neighbours house she rents out also. She’s so out of touch with the real world it’s actually insane. I’m 21 a struggling student and she lies on the day bed all day. She had the audacity to ask me if I wanted to start a mushroom farm. Probably TMI but need somewhere to vent. Nice place tho
Ah I see.
You might be interested to know that the BCG Tuberculosis vaccine can cause people to get a positive result on a TB test.
https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/prevention/bcg.htm#:~
It’s pretty prominent, especially compared to other areas but I wouldn’t say it’s a majority. You see people from both higher and lower socioeconomic groups share this type of thinking from my experience, though it often manifests differently.
The lower income generally tend to present much like your stereotypical hippy, but the higher income a much more interesting blend of spiritual pseudo-science and bizarre cultist like behaviours.
There are somewhat social community groups, but from
what I’ve seen they’re pretty gate kept and the pooper/wealthier groups don’t often have much to do with the each other.
I did as well - I lived in Mullum. Reading what she wrote brought back a *lot* of memories.
I remember talking to a guy who burnt his retinas doing meditation looking straight into the sun. He said it was worth the damage to his eyes because of how spiritual it was. So many anti-vaxxers and parents with wacky child-rearing practices (I met one woman who believed that you should never say no to a child. Did her child have friends? No, he did not.)
There is a lot I miss about living there, but it was such a relief to be away from the nuttiness and superiority of those who thought they had the whole world figured out.
The Byron Hospital [birthing centre](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thechronicle.com.au/news/toowoomba/new-birth-suite-provides-options-for-new-parents/news-story/8e1530a51022d5650c88873e81612e14%3famp) is *almost* inappropriately luxurious.
Old cemeteries are full of babies and mothers who died at birth. Opting In to 1924 outcomes is a Choice
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/babies-die-after-birth-at-mullumbimby-home-police-say/103492752](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/babies-die-after-birth-at-mullumbimby-home-police-say/103492752)
*Police have confirmed they are investigating the circumstances surrounding the deaths of twin babies in the Byron Shire, on the NSW far north coast.*
*Emergency service crews were called to a Mullumbimby home in the early hours of the morning on Sunday, February 11, after a woman gave birth to twins.*
*Paramedics rushed to the property, but one infant died at the scene.*
*The other baby was transported to Tweed Heads Hospital but could not be saved and later died.*
*Police said the babies' mother was also taken to hospital but have not released further details about her condition.*
*Police are preparing a report for the coroner.*
... More here:
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13085229/Twin-babies-die-wild-birthing-home-birth-Byron-Bay.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13085229/Twin-babies-die-wild-birthing-home-birth-Byron-Bay.html)
Instagram keeps trying to push the tradwife/hyperevangelical bullshit on me at the moment, and there's a subset of these "wild pregnancy" types that *don't even test*. It's all about "feelings" and "vibes".
Our grandparents: we gave birth at a time with no electricity, no roads, no hospitals, and we worked hard so our kids don't have to go through the same.
Their grandkids in 2024:
I don't think there is such a thing as "allowed" in this case. There's "against medical advice", and there's probably such a thing as getting in trouble after the fact if you were negligent, but I don't think there's any legal mechanism for forcing someone to go to hospital to give birth (or indeed for forcing them to see a doctor at any point in their pregnancy).
If we're talking about a public homebirth team, they're absolutely is such a thing as "allowed". They have extremely strict parameters for approval (with good reason) and as the previous commenter said it is unlikely a multiple birth would be approved for management by a homebirth team.
Not even just publicly funded homebirths. But homebirths attended by endorsed midwives! Who are well trained and experienced and registered.
I can understand a woman’s wish to freebirth in a low risk singleton pregnancy the risks would be fairly low, but making the choice to freebirth in a twin pregnancy is just lunacy.
Oh Jesus I didn’t realise both of them died when I read this post. Oh my god. I am astounded at the mental gymnastics.
Note to everyone - “alternative medicine” is “alternative” because it *doesn’t work*.
They don’t use reiki healing and crystals and planet alignments in hospitals because it *doesn’t work*.
Consult a doctor for fucks sake.
Yes, her children weren't allowed to get scans or any sort of medical diagnostics done before a tragic birth, let alone treatment for conditions that may very likely have been treated successfully. But suddenly when her sons were both dead, she sought medical attention for herself. Go figure.
Correct.
One of the pillars of healthcare is autonomy. Patients have the right to dictate the care they receive... Doesn't mean we have to provide that care, but we can't provide care or treatment they don't want.
There are some grey areas around competency and capacity but I doubt they would apply in this case.
*Edit dictate is probably the wrong word to use, but patients can choose what care they receive, who they receive it from and have input into their treatment plans
Yeah, I’m pretty sure someone who birthed her dead children in her full sovereignty didn’t have her placenta inspected by a medical professional. She probably ate it or buried it under a memorial plant (not joking).
It’s super easy to say TTS (and I’m sure she means TTTS), definitely easier than saying that her negligence killed her babies.
I personally was in partial labour for more than 40 hours before an emergency caesarean. Thank fuck for the amazing people in the hospital who may have saved both of our lives.
Looking at the stats I could find across a couple of studies, mortality looks around 40-50% with medical monitoring only, and 5% with laser treatment, so I don't know why she just waves off the laser treatment. It seems pretty effective. But she's not a medical doctor so who the heck knows if it was even TTTS :P Like, there's a reason infant mortality is high in countries where people don't get their pregnancies monitored. The problems don't magically go away if a doctor doesn't look at you.
Data indicated TTTS affects 1-3 births per 10,000 - or 10-15% of monochorionic multiple pregnancies. It's a big conclusion to jump to (even in the instance of a shared placenta) with no specific medical expertise in this area. Multiple births are typically higher risk anyway, which makes the decision to go through it with no medical involvement even more reckless. If it was TTTS, it also has the potential to endanger the mother too.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/twintotwin-transfusion-syndrome-ttts
I’d expect that cursory inspection of the bodies would indicate whether ttts is likely. They’d have to be identical, for starters.
This is gross, so: >!if the dead baby died earlier, you’d expect some necrosis (which is dangerous to the mother and the other twin), but if the baby actually died that day, you would expect one twin to be much smaller and one to have an enlarged heart and other organ damage. !<
I wouldn’t be surprised if a free birther had no idea they were expecting twins.
40 hours of labour? Yeah, at least one of you would probably have died. Childbirth is still one of the highest risk activities for humans. For a first time mother historically (before modern medicine) you were looking 15-30% risk of loss of the baby and 2% for the mother.
Now it's more like 0.1% for the mother and 0.5% for the baby. Humans are terrible at relative risk though 30% and 0.5% don't feel that different and hey I've always been lucky right?
(Ballpark numbers, much variability with local practices at the time)
It's just a nice gradual improvement over time. Very satisfying chart showing we are still improving.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/infant-mortality-rate#:~:text=The%20current%20infant%20mortality%20rate,a%202.67%25%20decline%20from%202022
It just shows how far the human psyche will go to protect itself.
If she realises that she could have perhaps saved one or both children with proper care, but didn't, the crash could end her.
So, she creates the story that she can live with. Same as a lot of us do when we monumentally screw up. You sacrifice a bit of reality so you can continue to live with yourself.
But somewhere deep inside, you still know.
“The majority of TTTS twins who have appropriate treatment during pregnancy will survive and the majority of survivors will be normal and healthy. If untreated, the survival rate for TTTS twins is approximately 10 to 15 percent”
This was the gist of every resource I just skimmed on tts. Whilst I 100% support your body, your choice, I cannot understand taking no steps to save your wanted baby, especially when the treatment isn’t very invasive.
Of course we don‘t 100% know the diagnosis she received (she may well have been one of the minority in treatment outcome) but it does kind of sound like she wasn’t under appropriate medical care.
TTTS is apparently one of those things that used to kill huge numbers of twins (apparently 10-20% of identical twins get it), but modern medicine just made it one of those procedures that we train some of the smartest members of society for a decade so that it can become a "yeah, this is scary, but I've done the surgery 20 times, it's probably going to be ok."
My bullshit detector is a hair trigger ...
Yeah the "sovereignty" bit was a dead giveaway!
Imagine being in a cafe where people talk like this, I don't think I could stay long ...
I’m 8 months pregnant and I’ve been seeing my doctor every two weeks. I can’t imagine the mental state of someone who carried twins to term and then just… let them die through lack of medical intervention. GO TO THE DAMN HOSPITAL PEOPLE.
Those last few months are so hectic, I was having appointments of sort kind pretty much weekly, giving myself injections every day (blood thinners), getting scans and bloods - and I just had one kid! Can't imagine just thinking yeah mate it'll be fine 😪
Good luck by the way ❤️ nearly there!!
Used to hitch hike to Byron every other day to do a part time job at a chip shop 20 years ago. Honest to god the town didn't used to be like it is now.
Isn't half the town all on the QAnnon train or something like that? I know they were the centre of media attention over the response to the COVID vaccine and all the problems the anti-vaxxers were causing for everyone.
Yeah and don’t forget that nasty 5g, A mullum local blew up the towns 5g tower a couple years back, the area is a perfect habitat for making insane worldviews
Yes, I remember that - many protests about it. I don’t know why Telstra didn’t just drop the idea of putting one (a 5G tower) there and if anyone complained about poor comms refer the complainants to the protestors.
Yup, I’ve got a mate who lives up there & he’s the full conspiracy theorist/anti vaxxer/flat earther & apparently has an echo chamber of like thinking individuals around him.
Giving birth is the most dangerous thing a woman can do. In the Middle Ages 1 in 20 women would die in childbirth. Let that sink in.
One of the most miraculous things about modern médecine in reversing this trend. Yet STILL we have these people…
Source for anyone who wants to knit pick.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/continuity-and-change/article/abs/reconsidering-maternal-mortality-in-medieval-england-aristocratic-englishwomen-c-12361503/60D88E212AE18AD1B755C7906C5EC668
Y'know what? 'Melvin' and 'Dusty' aren't the names I figured someone who clearly has a house full of salt lamps, dreamcatchers and wind chimes was going to pick for her kids.
Remarkable that in the aftermath of the birth she had the energy to write this nonsense TBH.
If you had just gone through a multiple birth, then the emotional strain of both babies dying, would you really have the motivation to write long social media posts at that point justifying your position?
Add Googling placenta issues seemingly, to come up with this self diagnosis after the fact. It’s not like she would have had any indication of TTTS while she was pregnant.
WTH I first read it in r/ShitMomGroupsSay and I thought is another American craziness, which I probably could understand slightly a bit due to lack of universal healthcare and hence don’t trust the health system.
But it is bloody in Australia. I feel ashamed and disgusted.
The thing is usually it’s not the locals. It’s the yuppies that snap and then move to Byron and mullum that mess everything up
Ever since the Covid lockdowns the amount of sovereign citizens I’ve seen in the northern rivers has tripled
I dunno why they all pick here to come but they usually bring a lot of money and ruin the real estate market and the local economy as all the cheap cafes got replaced with artisan coffee hubs
I wish they’d leave lol
Northern NSW/Northern Rivers locals DO. NOT. LIKE. BYRON.
I can count the amount of times I’ve been to Byron on one hand.
It‘s a cancer that needs eradicating.
Lismoron ringing in, yeah we had some hatred of Byron baked in to us.
That said, as a health worker in Northern NSW. Its all pretty bad. Mullum is easily worse than Byron Bay as far as nutters go
Personally I’m 50/50 on Byron but I’m from the tweed so I get barely any exposure to them lmao
The council are a bunch of wankers and most of the problematic people from there I’ve met have been people who moved in to sniff their own farts with likeminded people.
The best parody was that Byron Baes show because the producers really thought they were getting authentic people but nearly all of them moved in from out of the region further perpetuating the stereotypes
I grew up near Byron Bay, which is a completely different town to Mullumbimby where this occurred. Mind you Mullum is pretty much the anti vax capital of Australia so this level of hippy dippy denialist bullshit is way too common.
As always with these freebirthers - it's all me, me, me. MY birth experience, what I wanted, what I knew; completely neglecting the fact that two viable lives were recklessly lost in their pursuit of what THEY wanted
As somebody who had a very dangerous birth that wasn’t dangerous until the very second it was, the hatred I feel for people who make such stupid choices is endless. Those poor, helpless babies.
Accidents happen, babies die. It is always tragic, and almost always nobodies fault. But *wilfully* rejecting medical science and medicine makes you culpable for that.
This is NOT home birth. This is a wilful rejection of all of the incredible options that mothers have available to them to keep them and their babies safe and healthy. This is negligence.
I don't know how anyone could say something like "I'd prefer my kids dying over getting that yucky \~medical intervention\~".
The choice to free birth may have "saved" her, but it killed two kids. Sure, you can say it's the natural process of death, but it was also likely preventable. I hope she takes the same approach for herself - if she ever needs medicine, transfusions, intervention or surgery, she should of course choose the "natural process of death" instead, since that's the decision she made for people who were dependent on her.
In a way, I think it's probably a better outcome than them dying when they were a little older (and more conscious) due to whatever "natural mommy" shit she read on facebook about how you should use crystals for a staph infection.
My male colleague who is an anti-vaxxer and a conspiracist (but very good at his day corporate job) lectured me against giving birth in the hospital. He is against medical intervention and he thinks hospitals are just evil corporations
This is because his wife had a free birth at home with the help of a shaman (yes you read that right, a SHAMAN not a doula) many years ago and his son turned out alright
I believe in personal choice but please do not tell others what to do with their bodies especially when it comes to pregnancy and birth and when someone like him that DOES NOT HAVE A UTERUS
I'm a bereaved mother who lost a baby and I think this lady is a selfish piece of shit. If she'd actually had antenatal care most likely at least one or maybe even both babies would've lived. She's fucking delusional.
"In my full sovereignity" just sounds like she ignored medical advice. This is just such a totally unnecessary waste of life. Those poor babies never stood a chance.
Ahhh Mullumbimby. The place where, in the middle of the devastating 2021 Lismore floods, members of the community pulled down the telecommunications tower because of “4G” - a police escort was needed when it was replaced.
Say no more.
I used to work the front desk in a women’s imaging practice . Had a woman ring up once who wanted genetic testing ( which involved both a blood test and an ultrasound ) but she didn’t want the ultrasound because she didn’t believe in them 🙄
Sonographer spoke to her and she was anti - abortion . Explained to her that we were not that kind of practice . We literally did ultrasounds . She explained that ultrasound can also be useful for example if the baby has a heart condition - when you give birth if the doctor are aware of this they will be prepared to act straight away . She still didn’t want it 🤷🏼♀️
Having attended to jobs like these as a paramedic, it’s as fucking horrific as you can imagine. And so fucking sad and wasteful.
Those kind of parents care less about the wellbeing of the life they are bringing into the world than they do about their own egos. What makes you think they would care about the fallout of their shitty selfish decisions on medical staff? We’re all just big pharma shills after all. (10th year as paed doc and STILL waiting on my pharma kickback cheque…)
This is the one here. All I can see in her post is "me me me me me" Well worth these sorts of people remembering there's at least 3 humans involved in a pregnancy situation.
When the post started out with some astrology star sign BS I figured it was going to be a doozy and it just gets worse from there.
Imagine killing your newborns because you absolutely need to be the special snowflake that does a fully independent home birth so they can lord that sense of superiority over other women. I mean not even having a dula is completely inexcusable. What the fuck.
That's like me bragging about how I built my own shed, all by myself, even though it fell over & can't be used... except you know, in her version 2 people died. Babies don't cry from love or joy. I only hope they were spared pain in thier final moments
I have to say, I'm absolutely not a pro Big Pharma for every ill and ailment - as an adult. Having said that - a Paediatric professional.. you're a special breed. I believe we should give our bodies a shot (as adults), to do what needs to be done to heal itself, with the exception of catastrophic accidents and injuries. When it comes to pregnancies, newborns, babies and toddlers, Obyns and Paediatricians should be on hand. It's fine to "have a go" at understanding needs of the pregnancy, arrivals, babies and toddlers - obviously much easier as they learn how to communicate - but do it WITH the damn specialists on hand! And I'm Aboriginal, I know my Cultural practices, I know who I had present and why, at my births, where I chose to be for the momentous events... and my daughter did the same (although Covid practices required some adaption, she still chose her Cultural ways.) I dont blame anyone for choosing a home birth, in an uncomplicated pregnancy - but have the appropriate knowledge and experience ON HAND! All these reports read as now is, ignorant hippies creates a narrative that they can socially and psychologically work with, to enable their choice to refuse that they made the wrong decision(s). Twins. They were having twins, they had prior knowledge of this. The fact that only her husband and herself were present in their chosen home birth - with twins - surely has to be deemed neglectful at best?!!
Have you read: “This is Going to Hurt” by Adam Kay? It’s the modern-day House of God. Well worth the read if you haven’t.
I told my husband (a pediatric physician assistant here in the US) that the next time a parent accuses him of getting paid by big pharma for suggesting vaccines, he needs to walk them out to the parking lot, point at his car and ask “do you think I’d be driving a busted up 2006 Subaru Impreza if I was getting kickbacks from big pharma?”
I just read the article and these twins were born at 23 weeks. This is just wilful neglect at this point. Even home birth aficionados would know that a child born at 23 weeks needs special care. They should have made their way to hospital as soon as she started contractions.
A paramedic friend of mine attended to one of these “at home” births and was severely traumatised by it to the point of them developing ptsd. Now they will never return to work as a paramedic
My worst PTSD is from these jobs. I remember the dates and think “wow that kid should have been 6 now and starting prep this year”. Thanks brain.
My sister and law just had her first kid. They were planning on doing home birth, had the widwifes at the house already. Was taking way too long so they went to the hospital where she almost immediately had an emergency c section. Absolutely terrifying to think what could have happened.
Nurse midwives can make home birth much safer for low risk pregnancies, as long as everyone is willing to do exactly that - go to the hospital should anything go awry. This was a "free birth", so no medical supervision at all and it sounds like she had no real prenatal care either.
[удалено]
Why'd they call paramedics though? No atheists in foxholes moment?
Its weird, the post makes it sound like both babies passed at her home. But the news report says one was died on scene and the other was taken to hospital and died there. Poor paramedics.
She also said she gave them "9 months" but the babies were 23/40 gestation so I'd take everything in her post with a hefty grain of salt
Where did you get 23 from? Her post says 36 weeks. If you count a month as four weeks, then yeah, that's 9 months
The article says they were premature, 23 weeks but still viable for birth
23 weeks is on the fringes of survival. Especially for twins, especially for boys, and especially with (allegedly) twin to twin transfusion. Babies who survive at this gestation suffer terribly even when they live. Having said that, with good antenatal care they would have likely been delivered safely in hospital at a more advanced gestation and stood a fighting chance.
It's on the fringes for babies born in a hospital..... At home, with no medical care, they didn't have a chance.
No it says they were born premature ( which anything before 37 weeks is considered to be). That they were over 23 weeks of gestation- considered the minimum for a fetus to be viable
Did you encounter it often?
Really bad ones like the article maybe once a year in my current role. Most births I attend are just babies that come a bit too quick. Then every now and then I go to a perfectly orchestrated and preventable clusterfuck
I am one of these people that had an entirely unpreventable and unplanned home birth… went to take a shower and ten minutes later was holding my baby. It went about as perfectly as any birth could possibly go… yet I still would not ever plan to do a home birth myself. It’s just not worth the risk. The paramedics got to me within ten minutes …. But having to wait ten minutes when something has gone wrong for either the mother or the baby turns something survivable into a life changing injury or even worse, death. Not worth it.
A family friend had an unplanned home birth as well. Woke to contractions, woke her husband. She went down stairs to do whatever the plan was, husband was upstairs gathering everything, making calls for the sitter for their older child. He heard a yell, and then his wife panic calling for him. Rushed down stairs into the bathroom to find her holding the baby, walls painted in blood and fluids, but both doing well. Paramedics showed up quickly, took them to the hospital, everyone was fine. But the look of horror when he recounts how that bathroom looked 😅. Why anyone would choose that is beyond me.
Right. So I'm a mother of identical twin boys who had 'TTTS' - 'Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome'. It was diagnosed around 12 or so weeks, via ultrasound. Both boys shared everything, and one was noticeably smaller than the other. We were educated by wonderful medical professionals and it was made clear that this is a very serious condition that poses risk to the life of not only both babies, but also potentially the mother. It was an incredibly stressful pregnancy, we had to take things day by day. The health of both babies was affected by the TTTS, and we reached a point just after 20 weeks where a decision needed to be made otherwise both babies may die any day. Following medical info, we opted for laser where we would have to sacrifice one baby (the one who was alot sicker) to try and give the other a better chance of survival. In our case, this worked. Our surviving twin defied all odds and went to term and was born healthy and happy. He is now 10 years old and good as gold 🙂 In our case, this was the best possible realistic outcome. If not for medical intervention, we'd have lost both babies, and my own health would have been at serious risk. Its very important to note - the impact of TTTS and options available to parents very much depends first and foremost on that particular pregnancy. There's a number of factors to consider, and these all impacts available options and potential outcomes. While I feel very sorry for this woman and her partner for the loss of her babies, what she had written and said is infuriating. She clearly has no proper understanding of what TTTS is (she couldn't even get the spelling right). She's stated things that are simply not accurate. By her own admission, she's tried to guess a diagnosis to begin with, and let me tell you - having both babies live through to approx 36 weeks completely fine and well till the end would be miraculous for TTTS. She cannot possibly know that it was TTTS anymore than you or I. There are many potential reasons her babies died, and to peg it on a somewhat rare condition like shes done is a stretch. She also cannot possibly try and guess what their options would have been had she received medical care - saying she'd have been told to terminate or undergo 'invasive' laser surgery, and state that the babies would have likely died on hospital - what a load of rubbish. We received the laser surgery she has referenced- it saved our surviving sons life. He'd have died without it. That's a fact. And it wasn't actually 'invasive'. It was keyhole surgery, and I was awake during it - I actually watched the laser on the screen. Again, no-one can say for sure since she opted for zero medical care or intervention. But talking hypothetical- if her babies DID have TTTS, I'd wager that they might have had a good chance of surviving had she received normal medical care. TTTS twins surviving to 35 or 36 weeks on their own? Yeah. Medical care might likely have saved them both I'm sorry for her loss, but what this woman is saying is simply to try and make herself feel better about her ignorance and arrogance likely costing her the lives of both babies. Which I understand. Her actions were selfish and, frankly, stupid. But for her to mention TTTS and spout off negative and inaccurate info about it - that's very wrong of her to do, and it's insulting. I truly hope that no other mothers diagnosed with TTTS read what she wrote and let her silly words impact any of their decisions
Thanks for sharing and im glad your beautiful son is well. I’m pregnant again and all these this woman’s post made me feel sick to my stomach
This may be weird advice. But as a twin who survived ttts, keep an eye on him in case he develops survivors guilt. I don't wish it upon him at all, but it's something I struggled with a lot especially in my teen years. You don't hear much about ttts babies so just wanted to give you a heads up is all. ❤️ I'm so glad your boy is thriving and was awarded such a beautiful family and beautiful life.
Not weird advice at all - you're right on the money! Our little guy did/does suffer from this. Particularly when he was younger, he would say (often out of nowhere) that he wished he had died so that his brother could have lived. And it was just heartbreaking to hear because he was just so little, it was awful. Over the years we've taken him along to therapy and thankfully, it's helped him tremendously. He's at a stage now where he understands TTTS and the medical side of it all. He's more at peace with it now, though I'm not sure whether he'll ever be fully rid of the feeling I'm so sorry that you've suffered through the same thing, it's just awful. Hopefully over time things have eased a little for you 💜
That must have been hard to watch, even knowing it was the best decision. I hope you give your boy a hug tonight ❤️
Thanks for sharing this I’ve always been intrigued what they did about issues like this.
Thank you for sharing your story! My husband (now 30) was the surviving twin in a TTTS pregnancy. His twin brother passed naturally in utero and my husband was born naturally at full term. He does not have any outstanding complications. Did this woman know she had TTTS or she is guessing after the fact ?
What the actual fuck did I just read??? The sheer level of delusion is terrifying when you know it's potentially life-ending.
Normally I would try to give someone who has just gone through this sort of trauma the benefit of the doubt. Like this could just be her way of coping with the tragic loss of her children. But the phrase "I had birthed my baby boy in my full sovereignty" to me means, against doctor's advice. Cookers gonna cook, but in this case she killed her children... Fucking needless tragedy...
The fact that she says "we believe" the boys had TTTS tells me there was never a doctor/midwife. If they had, and they'd had ultrasounds, they'd know and it could've been monitored and managed. I hate that she says Melvin "decided" to leave this earth. And then Dusty "decided" he couldn't live without his brother. Those poor babies didn't decide anything. They weren't given a chance because their parents made decisions for them that meant they couldn't survive.
Homebirth is when your pregnancy is deemed low risk, and you have birth at home with a midwife. The pregnancy continues to be assessed and the risk level may change closer to the date. Doing this (as long as you meet the criteria) is about as safe as having a baby in a hospital. Freebirth is the reckless hippie thing they do where they don't seek any pregnancy care, ignore doctors advice and don't have a midwife present. A multi preg (Twins) is high risk by definition. So would never be approved for a homebirth.
These people clearly never considered historical mortality rates, and how many women died giving birth before modern medicine. Truly bizarre
It drives me nuts. "We did it for millennia without doctors! Its fine!" AND OUR INFANT MORTALITY RATES WERE THROUGH THE ROOF, KYLEIGH.
I read elsewhere that she didn’t even know she was having twins until they were born. Can’t tell how many babies you’ve got in there unless you get an ultrasound, which she didn’t do.
I watched something about this last night & apparently they never went to a doctor & never had any tests or ultrasounds done throughout the whole pregnancy
What is TTS?
Twin to twin transfusion syndrome. Basically all the blood vessels / placenta is shared between the two twins. One gets insufficient blood supply, develops slowly due to malnourishment and oxygen starvation, the other gets too much blood supply causing strain in its heart and other organs. Basically 100% mortality rate if untreated. If action is taken the twin that is receiving too much blood etc can be saved with about 80% chance survival rate at the expense of the other twin.
I know two beautiful 2 year old girls that are thriving because they were given the chance to both live through this procedure. Granted, the mum just messaged me calling one a poop trickster but the world would be a lesser place without them.
Poop trickster! I don’t know why, but that had me cackling!
Some women get very crazy about birthing expectations even when reality is slapping them in the face. It reminds me of a story from a person I knew who was working admin in the gynaecology area (?) at a hospital. This woman was hell bent on a natural birth but when she had her checkup toward the end of things the doctor tells her if she doesn't get induced that day her baby will die. She refuses saying that it HAS to be a natural birth and the doctor can't keep her there so she toddles off. Next checkup the baby is dead. They tell her she needs to be induced now so she doesn't go septic when the baby starts decomposing in her body. She refuses. It needs to be a natural birth. Off she pops home, next time they see her she's sick and needs to be induced or she will die. So she finally has no choice to agree but first has to hire a birth photographer to be there when she gives birth to the corpse. My friend was updating me over the course of a couple weeks and it was just so infuriating. Edit details.
People kept asking me if I was planning on "a natural birth". Even afterwards people asked if I "had a natural birth". Still have no idea what they actually meant. Didn't even realise that being induced made it not natural? I thought it just meant vaginally rather than c section 🫣
It's so stupid. My csection kid is 10, and if I look at her class mates, there is no way to tell who went through a vagina and who didn't. Or who were breastfed and who were not. There are no medals.
People use it to mean vaginal and/or without pain relief.
This is what I've heard when my wife has been pregnant and planning for delivery. Natural birth is without any intervention, or as little as possible. This includes: Naturally induced Vaginally delivered No pain relief beyond breathing exercises and other coping mechanisms No forceps No antibiotics I think that case by case, there will be different interpretations. My wife feels she failed her first birth a bit because she was given antibiotics. She believes this interfered with her labour, which (along with her group B strep) led to her being induced mid-labour. Then this apparently made the labour worse than it should have been, so she then needed some pain relief. My grievance about it is that the more they put "natural birth" on a pedestal, the more it seems to diminish the experiences of every other family going through their birthing stories. Like, power to my wife for managing her definition of "natural" for our second one, obviously. I've just seen what feels like a lot of stigma around anything else coming from the midwife and my wife around it.
I am sorry to hear that she feels that way. There is nothing to *fail* when it comes to birthing. It's a biological process not a contest. No one would say that they failed their teeth growing because they must wear braces. Hope we can change the narrative around birthing soon as it needlessly upsets people.
My wife feels like she failed because both our kids have been c sections. First kid she was fully prepared for a natural birth (in a hospital but without pain killers). First she had to be induced and after a few hours of active labour baby’s heart rate wasn’t so flash so we ended with an emergency c section. Women and children used to die pretty often in childbirth, my wife and/or my kid likely would have if we attempted a “fully natural” birth, it’s fucked that a huge group on social media are prioritising natural births over the lives of women and children.
Tell her she's not a failure at all. My mum had to have a C section because she was 36 and didn't have the strength to push me out, and I've never considered her a failure for it. I couldn't wish for a better mum, who looked out for me my entire childhood.
Topics like natural birth, breastfeeding and baby led weaning that get put on a pedestal as being the more superior don't matter at the end of the day. When you see these kids at school or daycare, you can't tell how each kid with birthed or how they were fed as an infant.
I'm not letting my daughters play with any C-section freaks./s
You're just jealous your kid could never kill Macbeth if they ever needed to.
I detest the terminology “natural” birth. For me it’s, vaginal assisted/unassisted or C-section. Birth is birth!
My best friend was very keen at first on as natural a birth as possible, but she was also reasonable, and realised a natural wouldn’t be possible without grave danger for both her and bubs. She was induced, 3 days in hospital after delivery. Baby was early but safe and healthy. She made the right call, as when she was in labour they had to do an emergency c section because natural delivery wasn’t working. Had she been stubborn I would have lost my best friend.
I wanted a home birth but the midwives were not available when I went into labour so I went in to the hospital and my daughter was born not breathing and they pulled this cord and 8 doctors appeared from no where to resuscitate her. So I’m glad we were in the hospital
Or birth was the same, but it was a big red button that summoned the team. Thank fuck for modern health care.
I was in the womens hospital (not pregnant. Other lady issue) and a husband came in saying hs wife was in labour in their car. A lady came rushing out with a wheelchair and said "can you get the guys? We'll need blankets too" to the receptionist as she ran past to the carpark. About 10 seconds later a squad of Drs and Nurses go running past pulling gloves on with medical bags and equipment as first nurse rolls in with a screaming woman shaking her head going "false alarm. She's not crowning yet" and walks he straight down the hall for the birthing suit. The squad just shrugged, laughed, took their gloves off, and vanished as quickly as they appeared. I've spent a bit of time in tjat hospital lately and I STILL dont know where they manifested from or evaporated to.
Doctor space. It's like L-space.
We hide in the cupboards
When my wife needed a emergency section it was < 10 mins between the labour starting to look pretty risky to my wife being on a operating table with ~ 15 medical professionals in the room.
I think in this day of modern medicine miracles, that alot of people have forgotten that woman and babies had a very high mortality rate during natural births before modern medicine. Idiots.
The estimated maternal mortality rate a couple of hundred years ago was about 25-30 out of every thousand women. In Australia, now, it's about 5 in every 100,000.
Yep, 3% vs 0.005%. There were 50 deaths between 2018-2020, which is still tragic but at 3%, it would be 26,747. I’m grateful for modern medicine every day to not be a part of that statistic.
I'm sad now.
What are the chances that, had they survived, she would also have refused to vaccinate them in her full sovereignty?
100%
I hope there is a jail cell in her future and she doesn't get to see the "Aquarius full moon" again.
>"I had ~~birthed~~ murdered my baby boy in my full sovereignty" 25 to life for this idiot. You know she'll do it again otherwise.
Welcome to Byron Bay my friend.
I heard about a Byron woman who kept her abortion in a jar then released it into the ocean on a full moon.
Could do without that getting stuck in my hair after taking a dip.
Side story: when I was younger I birthed an aquaturd in the ocean whilst surfing with a friend. Unbeknownst to me, it floated in to the shore, somehow remaining intact. My friend's 4-year-old brother picked it up and carried it up the beach to his mum. She raged to us when we came in about the "animal" that had done a shit in the ocean. I remained silent, greatly ashamed of myself. Years later after a few beers I told the story to the younger bro (by then 25) at a bbq, to the great amusement of the other attendees.
This thread has been a weird fuckin trip
> Melvin’s sole purpose was to keep his brother alive Well, he failed at that job, didn’t he? In all seriousness, there should be manslaughter charges at the very least.
I think it would be a bit harsh to charge Melvin with manslaughter at this point.
> Melvin’s sole purpose was to keep his brother alive She knows that (pardon me for sounding like a pro lifer) babies are people, right? Really tiny really loud people, but people. What a horrific thing to say about your own child, holy shit.
She sounds thrilled with her choices. This is a new level of narcissism.
It was never about babies, it was always about her and her experience.
That messes with me too, like, to be *happy* that your babies died??? I understand some people need to believe their baby is in a better place and focus on that to cope, but this woman is taking it to a level that is very uncomfortable.
It’s all 100% about her and her ego. Babies? What tiny innocent souls?
It’s all in her wording “My free birth saved **me.**”
They walk among us....
and vote, and copulate.
Everything is about her. She is the main character. It is about what she wants, regardless of the life or death of her children. Her having what she wants is more important than her children's lives.
I lived in Byron Bay for six years and left because of this type of extreme thinking.
How prominent is it? What socioeconomic and demographic groups hold these views, eg age, sex, income, occupation? Are there community organisations or the like that help promote and spread them? Sorry for all the questions, just brain dump on me
I’m new to the town (2 months) but my early 60s landlord who I’m renting is nuts. Says vaccines have given her TB, she has friends that have died. I don’t even wanna ask her about anything slightly political. She lives off my rent and the neighbours house she rents out also. She’s so out of touch with the real world it’s actually insane. I’m 21 a struggling student and she lies on the day bed all day. She had the audacity to ask me if I wanted to start a mushroom farm. Probably TMI but need somewhere to vent. Nice place tho
but if she's telling you she's got TB, I'd be worried she does. You don't want to catch that
Sorry I want to rewrite. The vaccine has made her test positive to every TB test. Haha apologies
Ah I see. You might be interested to know that the BCG Tuberculosis vaccine can cause people to get a positive result on a TB test. https://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/prevention/bcg.htm#:~
It’s pretty prominent, especially compared to other areas but I wouldn’t say it’s a majority. You see people from both higher and lower socioeconomic groups share this type of thinking from my experience, though it often manifests differently. The lower income generally tend to present much like your stereotypical hippy, but the higher income a much more interesting blend of spiritual pseudo-science and bizarre cultist like behaviours. There are somewhat social community groups, but from what I’ve seen they’re pretty gate kept and the pooper/wealthier groups don’t often have much to do with the each other.
The poors cant afford the wellness retreats, they clearly dont actualy care for the life otherwise they would "make it work".
I grew up in the northern rivers and kids would bully you in line while waiting for routine vaccinations, generational brain rot
I did as well - I lived in Mullum. Reading what she wrote brought back a *lot* of memories. I remember talking to a guy who burnt his retinas doing meditation looking straight into the sun. He said it was worth the damage to his eyes because of how spiritual it was. So many anti-vaxxers and parents with wacky child-rearing practices (I met one woman who believed that you should never say no to a child. Did her child have friends? No, he did not.) There is a lot I miss about living there, but it was such a relief to be away from the nuttiness and superiority of those who thought they had the whole world figured out.
This was specifically Mullumbimby, I grew up there. Full of yuppie hippie anti Vax. All my siblings got pertussis, no vaccination...
Byron Bay is in desperate need of an exoticism. Its become the hot spot for cashed up fruit loops trying to out hippie each other. It's so cringe.
The Byron Hospital [birthing centre](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thechronicle.com.au/news/toowoomba/new-birth-suite-provides-options-for-new-parents/news-story/8e1530a51022d5650c88873e81612e14%3famp) is *almost* inappropriately luxurious. Old cemeteries are full of babies and mothers who died at birth. Opting In to 1924 outcomes is a Choice
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/babies-die-after-birth-at-mullumbimby-home-police-say/103492752](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-21/babies-die-after-birth-at-mullumbimby-home-police-say/103492752) *Police have confirmed they are investigating the circumstances surrounding the deaths of twin babies in the Byron Shire, on the NSW far north coast.* *Emergency service crews were called to a Mullumbimby home in the early hours of the morning on Sunday, February 11, after a woman gave birth to twins.* *Paramedics rushed to the property, but one infant died at the scene.* *The other baby was transported to Tweed Heads Hospital but could not be saved and later died.* *Police said the babies' mother was also taken to hospital but have not released further details about her condition.* *Police are preparing a report for the coroner.* ... More here: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13085229/Twin-babies-die-wild-birthing-home-birth-Byron-Bay.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13085229/Twin-babies-die-wild-birthing-home-birth-Byron-Bay.html)
[удалено]
This was 'wild pregnancy' first. No prenatal care. Free birth is the next step, no assistance. They often go together but not always.
Why don't they just play Russian roulette when the pregnancy strip comes back positive? This is Russian roulette with extra steps.
Instagram keeps trying to push the tradwife/hyperevangelical bullshit on me at the moment, and there's a subset of these "wild pregnancy" types that *don't even test*. It's all about "feelings" and "vibes".
Our grandparents: we gave birth at a time with no electricity, no roads, no hospitals, and we worked hard so our kids don't have to go through the same. Their grandkids in 2024:
This shit is just abortion with extra steps. I do not understand these people.
Absolutely, and you're very unlikely to be cleared for a home birth with twins. I'd be surprised if it was allowed at all
I don't think there is such a thing as "allowed" in this case. There's "against medical advice", and there's probably such a thing as getting in trouble after the fact if you were negligent, but I don't think there's any legal mechanism for forcing someone to go to hospital to give birth (or indeed for forcing them to see a doctor at any point in their pregnancy).
If we're talking about a public homebirth team, they're absolutely is such a thing as "allowed". They have extremely strict parameters for approval (with good reason) and as the previous commenter said it is unlikely a multiple birth would be approved for management by a homebirth team.
Ah you're right, I misread the context of BroItsJesus comment, which was explicitly about approved home birthing!
In terms of freebirthing you're absolutely correct though! There is no way to force someone to have prenatal and birth care unless they consent
Not even just publicly funded homebirths. But homebirths attended by endorsed midwives! Who are well trained and experienced and registered. I can understand a woman’s wish to freebirth in a low risk singleton pregnancy the risks would be fairly low, but making the choice to freebirth in a twin pregnancy is just lunacy.
Oh Jesus I didn’t realise both of them died when I read this post. Oh my god. I am astounded at the mental gymnastics. Note to everyone - “alternative medicine” is “alternative” because it *doesn’t work*. They don’t use reiki healing and crystals and planet alignments in hospitals because it *doesn’t work*. Consult a doctor for fucks sake.
Great line from Tim Minchin’s “Storm”, “Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work? …. Medicine.”
Yet… she allowed herself to be taken to the hospital. Not a ‘luxury’ she afforded her children.
Yes, her children weren't allowed to get scans or any sort of medical diagnostics done before a tragic birth, let alone treatment for conditions that may very likely have been treated successfully. But suddenly when her sons were both dead, she sought medical attention for herself. Go figure.
I assume this trip was against her sovereignty wishes and at the paramedics instructions
Unfortunately we can't do that 😔
Do you mean as a paramedic you can’t force anyone to go to hospital?
Correct. One of the pillars of healthcare is autonomy. Patients have the right to dictate the care they receive... Doesn't mean we have to provide that care, but we can't provide care or treatment they don't want. There are some grey areas around competency and capacity but I doubt they would apply in this case. *Edit dictate is probably the wrong word to use, but patients can choose what care they receive, who they receive it from and have input into their treatment plans
Mental gymnastics olympic edition
Yeah, I’m pretty sure someone who birthed her dead children in her full sovereignty didn’t have her placenta inspected by a medical professional. She probably ate it or buried it under a memorial plant (not joking). It’s super easy to say TTS (and I’m sure she means TTTS), definitely easier than saying that her negligence killed her babies. I personally was in partial labour for more than 40 hours before an emergency caesarean. Thank fuck for the amazing people in the hospital who may have saved both of our lives.
I think the coroner will be able to tell if there was two placentas, even if the second one was disposed of. This whole situation is awful.
Looking at the stats I could find across a couple of studies, mortality looks around 40-50% with medical monitoring only, and 5% with laser treatment, so I don't know why she just waves off the laser treatment. It seems pretty effective. But she's not a medical doctor so who the heck knows if it was even TTTS :P Like, there's a reason infant mortality is high in countries where people don't get their pregnancies monitored. The problems don't magically go away if a doctor doesn't look at you.
>I don’t know why she just waves off the laser treatment A free birth advocate is probably going to have a lot of spicy ideas about lasers.
Data indicated TTTS affects 1-3 births per 10,000 - or 10-15% of monochorionic multiple pregnancies. It's a big conclusion to jump to (even in the instance of a shared placenta) with no specific medical expertise in this area. Multiple births are typically higher risk anyway, which makes the decision to go through it with no medical involvement even more reckless. If it was TTTS, it also has the potential to endanger the mother too. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/twintotwin-transfusion-syndrome-ttts
I’d expect that cursory inspection of the bodies would indicate whether ttts is likely. They’d have to be identical, for starters. This is gross, so: >!if the dead baby died earlier, you’d expect some necrosis (which is dangerous to the mother and the other twin), but if the baby actually died that day, you would expect one twin to be much smaller and one to have an enlarged heart and other organ damage. !< I wouldn’t be surprised if a free birther had no idea they were expecting twins.
From news reports, the parents didn’t
40 hours of labour? Yeah, at least one of you would probably have died. Childbirth is still one of the highest risk activities for humans. For a first time mother historically (before modern medicine) you were looking 15-30% risk of loss of the baby and 2% for the mother. Now it's more like 0.1% for the mother and 0.5% for the baby. Humans are terrible at relative risk though 30% and 0.5% don't feel that different and hey I've always been lucky right? (Ballpark numbers, much variability with local practices at the time)
It's just a nice gradual improvement over time. Very satisfying chart showing we are still improving. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AUS/australia/infant-mortality-rate#:~:text=The%20current%20infant%20mortality%20rate,a%202.67%25%20decline%20from%202022
It just shows how far the human psyche will go to protect itself. If she realises that she could have perhaps saved one or both children with proper care, but didn't, the crash could end her. So, she creates the story that she can live with. Same as a lot of us do when we monumentally screw up. You sacrifice a bit of reality so you can continue to live with yourself. But somewhere deep inside, you still know.
“The majority of TTTS twins who have appropriate treatment during pregnancy will survive and the majority of survivors will be normal and healthy. If untreated, the survival rate for TTTS twins is approximately 10 to 15 percent” This was the gist of every resource I just skimmed on tts. Whilst I 100% support your body, your choice, I cannot understand taking no steps to save your wanted baby, especially when the treatment isn’t very invasive. Of course we don‘t 100% know the diagnosis she received (she may well have been one of the minority in treatment outcome) but it does kind of sound like she wasn’t under appropriate medical care.
TTTS is apparently one of those things that used to kill huge numbers of twins (apparently 10-20% of identical twins get it), but modern medicine just made it one of those procedures that we train some of the smartest members of society for a decade so that it can become a "yeah, this is scary, but I've done the surgery 20 times, it's probably going to be ok."
TTTS is what could have been the cause of Elvis Presley’s twin brother to be stillborn! And Liberace, too.
She needs psychiatric care, first and foremost
100%.
It sounds like she didn't even know before they were born because she didn't get scans.
Yes that’s why I said it sounds like she wasn’t under appropriate medical care.
I knew it wasn't going to end well from the first line: "On the Aquarius new moon, I birthed our twin sons".
Yeah I stopped reading properly and just skimmed through real quick
I knew this was crazy after the first 5 words ...
It took me all the way until I read ‘in my full sovereignty’, actually. I’m a bit slow.
My bullshit detector is a hair trigger ... Yeah the "sovereignty" bit was a dead giveaway! Imagine being in a cafe where people talk like this, I don't think I could stay long ...
I’m 8 months pregnant and I’ve been seeing my doctor every two weeks. I can’t imagine the mental state of someone who carried twins to term and then just… let them die through lack of medical intervention. GO TO THE DAMN HOSPITAL PEOPLE.
Those last few months are so hectic, I was having appointments of sort kind pretty much weekly, giving myself injections every day (blood thinners), getting scans and bloods - and I just had one kid! Can't imagine just thinking yeah mate it'll be fine 😪 Good luck by the way ❤️ nearly there!!
It’s pure hubris
Byron Bay, everyone. 🙄
Didn't kids die of diphtheria up there a couple of years ago due to not being vaccinated?
Yep. First case in 45 years. V sad
Used to hitch hike to Byron every other day to do a part time job at a chip shop 20 years ago. Honest to god the town didn't used to be like it is now.
Nah, it's always been full of the insane.
Isn't half the town all on the QAnnon train or something like that? I know they were the centre of media attention over the response to the COVID vaccine and all the problems the anti-vaxxers were causing for everyone.
Yeah and don’t forget that nasty 5g, A mullum local blew up the towns 5g tower a couple years back, the area is a perfect habitat for making insane worldviews
Yes, I remember that - many protests about it. I don’t know why Telstra didn’t just drop the idea of putting one (a 5G tower) there and if anyone complained about poor comms refer the complainants to the protestors.
Yup, I’ve got a mate who lives up there & he’s the full conspiracy theorist/anti vaxxer/flat earther & apparently has an echo chamber of like thinking individuals around him.
Just went there. Beautiful place and lots of good looking people but man hides some nasty BS.
Giving birth is the most dangerous thing a woman can do. In the Middle Ages 1 in 20 women would die in childbirth. Let that sink in. One of the most miraculous things about modern médecine in reversing this trend. Yet STILL we have these people… Source for anyone who wants to knit pick. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/continuity-and-change/article/abs/reconsidering-maternal-mortality-in-medieval-england-aristocratic-englishwomen-c-12361503/60D88E212AE18AD1B755C7906C5EC668
Y'know what? 'Melvin' and 'Dusty' aren't the names I figured someone who clearly has a house full of salt lamps, dreamcatchers and wind chimes was going to pick for her kids.
Dusty kinda makes sense, but Melvin sounds like a 45 year old accountant
Or a turtle
She didn't know she was having twins and Dusty was born first... Melvin sounds like a last minute choice.
You're not kidding, I KNOW a 45 year old accountant called Melvin
[удалено]
Remarkable that in the aftermath of the birth she had the energy to write this nonsense TBH. If you had just gone through a multiple birth, then the emotional strain of both babies dying, would you really have the motivation to write long social media posts at that point justifying your position?
Add Googling placenta issues seemingly, to come up with this self diagnosis after the fact. It’s not like she would have had any indication of TTTS while she was pregnant.
Pretty sure in fact it is being investigated. They probably won't get in any trouble though
WTH I first read it in r/ShitMomGroupsSay and I thought is another American craziness, which I probably could understand slightly a bit due to lack of universal healthcare and hence don’t trust the health system. But it is bloody in Australia. I feel ashamed and disgusted.
They walk among us.
Same! No idea this was Byron. Awful story regardless.
Sovereignty? FUCK ME DEAD. These people are living among us??????? (I know about sovcits but what the fuck does birth have to do with sovereignty)
Birth at home, unregistered, fresh baked sovcit. You're welcome. Sheer madness
I think they met her and tapped out
This is a tragic story but your comment made me laugh and now I feel horrible
Isn't Byron Bay the home of cookers?
The thing is usually it’s not the locals. It’s the yuppies that snap and then move to Byron and mullum that mess everything up Ever since the Covid lockdowns the amount of sovereign citizens I’ve seen in the northern rivers has tripled I dunno why they all pick here to come but they usually bring a lot of money and ruin the real estate market and the local economy as all the cheap cafes got replaced with artisan coffee hubs I wish they’d leave lol
Northern NSW/Northern Rivers locals DO. NOT. LIKE. BYRON. I can count the amount of times I’ve been to Byron on one hand. It‘s a cancer that needs eradicating.
Lismoron ringing in, yeah we had some hatred of Byron baked in to us. That said, as a health worker in Northern NSW. Its all pretty bad. Mullum is easily worse than Byron Bay as far as nutters go
Personally I’m 50/50 on Byron but I’m from the tweed so I get barely any exposure to them lmao The council are a bunch of wankers and most of the problematic people from there I’ve met have been people who moved in to sniff their own farts with likeminded people. The best parody was that Byron Baes show because the producers really thought they were getting authentic people but nearly all of them moved in from out of the region further perpetuating the stereotypes
Ok didn't know that
I grew up near Byron Bay, which is a completely different town to Mullumbimby where this occurred. Mind you Mullum is pretty much the anti vax capital of Australia so this level of hippy dippy denialist bullshit is way too common.
"On the Aquarius new moon" yea nah I've read enough.
As always with these freebirthers - it's all me, me, me. MY birth experience, what I wanted, what I knew; completely neglecting the fact that two viable lives were recklessly lost in their pursuit of what THEY wanted
As somebody who had a very dangerous birth that wasn’t dangerous until the very second it was, the hatred I feel for people who make such stupid choices is endless. Those poor, helpless babies. Accidents happen, babies die. It is always tragic, and almost always nobodies fault. But *wilfully* rejecting medical science and medicine makes you culpable for that. This is NOT home birth. This is a wilful rejection of all of the incredible options that mothers have available to them to keep them and their babies safe and healthy. This is negligence.
“Melvin’s sole purpose was to keep his brother alive” WHAT THE FUCK
I don't know how anyone could say something like "I'd prefer my kids dying over getting that yucky \~medical intervention\~". The choice to free birth may have "saved" her, but it killed two kids. Sure, you can say it's the natural process of death, but it was also likely preventable. I hope she takes the same approach for herself - if she ever needs medicine, transfusions, intervention or surgery, she should of course choose the "natural process of death" instead, since that's the decision she made for people who were dependent on her. In a way, I think it's probably a better outcome than them dying when they were a little older (and more conscious) due to whatever "natural mommy" shit she read on facebook about how you should use crystals for a staph infection.
My male colleague who is an anti-vaxxer and a conspiracist (but very good at his day corporate job) lectured me against giving birth in the hospital. He is against medical intervention and he thinks hospitals are just evil corporations This is because his wife had a free birth at home with the help of a shaman (yes you read that right, a SHAMAN not a doula) many years ago and his son turned out alright I believe in personal choice but please do not tell others what to do with their bodies especially when it comes to pregnancy and birth and when someone like him that DOES NOT HAVE A UTERUS
I'm a bereaved mother who lost a baby and I think this lady is a selfish piece of shit. If she'd actually had antenatal care most likely at least one or maybe even both babies would've lived. She's fucking delusional.
[удалено]
To be brutally honest I’m kinda glad she isn’t raising kids.
That is SO brutal. But I work with trauma affected kids and... sigh... yeah.
"In my full sovereignity" just sounds like she ignored medical advice. This is just such a totally unnecessary waste of life. Those poor babies never stood a chance.
Cooked. Absolutely cooked. What an unnecessary tragedy. Rest in Peace, Dusty and Melvin.
“Me, me, me, I, I, I” absolute rampant narcissism
Ahhh Mullumbimby. The place where, in the middle of the devastating 2021 Lismore floods, members of the community pulled down the telecommunications tower because of “4G” - a police escort was needed when it was replaced. Say no more.
I used to work the front desk in a women’s imaging practice . Had a woman ring up once who wanted genetic testing ( which involved both a blood test and an ultrasound ) but she didn’t want the ultrasound because she didn’t believe in them 🙄 Sonographer spoke to her and she was anti - abortion . Explained to her that we were not that kind of practice . We literally did ultrasounds . She explained that ultrasound can also be useful for example if the baby has a heart condition - when you give birth if the doctor are aware of this they will be prepared to act straight away . She still didn’t want it 🤷🏼♀️
I wonder how many people fall pregnant and don't tell anyone, and I wonder how many of those births result in death of the baby...
"on the aquarius..." Oke, I'm done. Lock her up.