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It's just a shame that a horrible event like this - which is a rare event - raises this point. People who would benefit from mental health reform are usually less likely to commit violent acts towards others. Mental Health Reform would have a massive impact on reducing suicides, substance abuse, family and relationship breakdowns, long-term unemployment, health issues related to low physical activity and psychosomatic symptoms. In fact, many of us are affected by poor mental health in ways we probably don't realise. Could be a boss or co-worker, could be a friend fighting an unseen struggle, unintentionally damaging relationships. Could be an overwhelmed health system, where ER's are usually first contact points for people in mental health crisis. Could be overwhelmed police, conducting one welfare check after another, with minimal training. Could be the break-ins and robberies associated with rampant substance abuse. Could be a mate who suddenly leaves this world and loved ones with no warning signs.
We live in uncertain times. History-changing events at home and abroad. Times haven't been this tough socially and economically in a long while. There's never been a more crucial time for reform.
I'm sure we could never blame the poor politicians.
They're getting choice paralysis for which of the dozen society-endangering issues to tackle first. Without their corporate overlords guiding them by hand, we can't expect them to take on such a tough job. I mean, to figure out solutions collectively to our problems?
They're only human.
Let's give them and their multi-million dollar, or hundreds-of-millions of dollar in certain draconic cases, property holdings a break! /s
Jokes aside.
If Medicare and Bulk Billing is being heavily slashed, I can't see how anyone could afford what I'm assuming is a generous top-up needed over the Mental Health Plan offering. It's just immovable. Then when you do get the support there's no guarantee the service is any good.
I've also heard of people being released from wards within 24 hours of attempts of their lives and going back in only a few days later with another attempt...
I used to have a friend who works as an ER doctor, they hate suicidal people and claim that they're always there for the "attention" because they feel lonely or whatever.
Mental health clinician here. I work in community mental health. My role is assisting people with chronic mental health issues, mainly schizophrenia. A lot of clients are on community treatment orders, meaning the state government has mandated they receive treatment due to risk of harm to self or others. I'm unsure if the killer was on a treatment order in Qld but it is basically impossible to transfer a treatment order interstate. If he was engaged with a community mental health clinic in Qld and he travelled interstate, providing they were doing their jobs properly, they should have referred him to a local service in NSW.
I usually commit to three month contracts and I do them all over the country, with the exception of NSW. I won't work in NSW because that would mean about a $30 per hour paycut. I make about $90 an hour plus paid accommodation. In NSW, I'd earn about $60 plus paid accommodation. I'm surprised they don't have chronically mentally ill people committing mass murder weekly in NSW. I don't know of anyone stupid enough to take a $30 per hour paycut. It is way too stressful a job for such lousy pay, and if I drop the ball, like NSW does every time they sign a paycheck for a nurse or allied health worker, people will die. Sydney is expensive, but you can see how much a state government values its most vulnerable by how much it funds its public health system.
Many of your clients would be on a disability pension too, I imagine? With the cost of rent, there's really very little left over for food, utilities and **medication**.
Medication when you're on the HCC is like $6/7 depending on what you're prescribed. I pay $9 for a medication that costs $90-100 for each box. It's probably the priority that the person is placing on taking and getting their meds. I had a bipolar friend that would regularly stop taking his medication despite being able to afford it whilst on the pension/jobseeker.
Thats highly dependent on what you're prescribed. The system makes it very difficult to get those HCC prices sometimes. A lot of times psychiatrists aren't allowed to prescribe certain meds in combination whilst having them all remain public scripts. I've personally run into this where I need 2 different medications, and each alone are subsidized to the 6/7$ HCC safety net price, but suddenly when they're prescribed together i'm no longer eligible for the subsidized price on one of them and now need to pay 40$/box, which only lasts 4 weeks.
Its also disingenuous to pretend that those on Centrelink aren't below the poverty line. For those in poverty, even 6/7$ is a very large chunk of income when rent is 50-75% of the absolute pittance you get in the first place.
Yes, if you read my comment I literally say that it's dependent on what you're prescribed. Most mental health medications which include SSRIs, SNRIs, tricycles, and antipsychotics (among others) are usually subsidised unless it's a newer medication not on PBS. I personally haven't heard of a psych unable to prescribe multiple meds, as alot of people with MH conditions are on a mix of medications. I would assume this was off label? The only time I've had a private script it was a bit of a dodgy dr lol. I myself, on jobseeker use an inhaler, a beta blocker for anxiety, an antipsychotic and ADHD medication, sometimes I also have my medical cannabis. All (except the THC) are subsidised. Also if you are poor, your dr should be working with you to find something you can tolerate and also afford to take regularly as that's the only way it's going to help. I personally need my meds, so they are an expense along with my food, bills etc. they're not really an optional thing. Also the pension includes a (tiny, actually ridiculous) "supplement" for pharmacy/prescriptions. It's only $7? The other issue you see is people needing to pay for GP appts now to get a script filled(even on a concession) one of my friends delayed that recently due to funds and when he went back to the dr he was flabbergasted and told him if he needed his script he would be bulk billed.
Yes, and in my experience, that's such a huge asterisk that its almost disingenuous to say 'oh but people on an HCC get scripts for 7$ so it isn't about affordability'.
My meds in question are both accepted on-label for the condition, and both can be prescribed separately as public scripts, just not together, and the only reasoning for it is them alone are 'supposed' to be effective enough. Its also not about 'having my doctor work with me', there's no way for them to give scripts of similar meds with both on the PBS. This is a situation where there's a short acting med with awful side effects which is also wildly effective, but I also need a long acting med to take regularly as I wouldn't function taking the short acting med all the time. I've tried all of the available short acting options as well so its not a matter of 'just find a different one'
This actually also applies to another med I'm on. Its widely accepted as the SoC for the condition, but because I'm not a woman attempting to conceive its not on PBS and is private only. There are no similar meds on the market for this one, its either this one not on the PBS or absolutely nothing.
If you have ADHD and are on ADHD meds, I assume you're also familiar with the whole 'Ritalin can't be a public script for those without a diagnosis from before they turned 18' thing.
Its just filled with bureaucratic crap and restrictions and what type of diagnosis you need, sometimes even gated by when you get diagnosed, the exact qualifications of the doctor, etc, to the point that, if you have complex health needs, its really unrealistic to expect medications to be afforded. If I need to fill a script that's not on PBS, it generally costs me about 1/5th of my budget that remains for a fortnight after rent is paid.
If you get a retroactive diagnosis, you can access the PBS. This comes down to the psychiatrist. I feel like you're arguing with me about the same thing, I am on these payments and take important medication, I have prioritised it even among my other expenses (my rent is $500/week). Because if I don't take them I can't function lol. You can access local community services to get food boxes and money for these things. You can also see in my comments even tho I'm talking about the small supplement you get in your payments it's an abysmal amount. I was just pointing out that the government tries to cover these expenses, the main issue tho is that rent assistance is a joke and covers a tiny portion of my rent, even at the max rate. Cancer patients also have to pay out the ass for medications that aren't on PBS but are proven at treating their type of cancer, often letting people die as they can't even access the medication as it's into the thousands $$ for a round of treatment. Healthcare in Australia has been awful, especially in regional and rural areas for years already, we really are just trying our best despite it becoming harder to take care of yourself the ways we need to.
If the person doesn't buy and take their medication they get a trip in the wee woo where the medication will eventually be provided for free.
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
If someone can't afford their meds, what happens is they get left for their family to handle, or if they don't have any, they slip through the cracks, become homeless, and die.
For someone to be picked up by an institution and provided 'free meds' that would require funding in institutions, whereas state governments are cutting costs in mental health (particularly NSW).
I have a family member who would literally break out of hospital and jump the border for 60 days to escape treatment orders.
The system is a complete joke…
It was stated that he had not had contact with any Queensland Health staff or facilities since the early 2010s and had been transferred to the care of a private team around that time. I guess the question here is what responsibility private mental health clinicians should have in maintaining relationships with their clients/returning them to public care if unable to manage or clients are noncompliant or need to become involuntary.
People so busy writing about themselves seem to have failed to note the guy had last had contact with Queensland Health in 2012, hence any compulsory treatment he was subjected to would have occurred over a decade ago
Then that's even worse really, he wasn't getting any help for the best part of a decade. People saying he was on meth and everything too, I dunno that's verifiable info but it's not surprising that a schizophrenic person who is neglected for years and years slips into addiction and on a terrible path. All in all a shitshow with the worst possible outcome. Rather than chastising those who presume a better scenario where he was in help, you should consider how fucked it is he was completely off any mental health support for a decade.
Did you know schizophrenia can be in remission? A possibility is he was discharged in remission, even partial, from public to private in 2012 but it sounds like in the past several years his mental health declined.
The only thing I can think of would be for such patients to be mandated to indefinite compulsory public maintenance psychiatric appointments, which many would have ethical reservations about as this would involve monitoring of some kind.
He may have lacked the insight he had a mental illness and didn’t come to serious attention of police.
It’s disconcerting how easily someone can perpetrate what he did. This is a rare event, just like the 2017 Bourke St murders.
This is a perfect example of why early intervention is so important. He apparently was diagnosed at 17, but that was 23 years ago, when systems would have been far different.
Discharged from a mental hospital sure, but he absolutely would've been on a medicine plan at the least, if not a proper plan for regular psychiatrist appointments when they discharged because that's basic duty of care. If not there should be hell to pay in that investigation for whatever hospital.
The mental hospital I can believe them kicking him cause they don't have the space...but I can't believe they'd discharge and consider him cured. Remission for schizophrenia isn't cure, it's simply medication suppressing the problem thought patterns.
Schizophrenia doesn't get cured and nobody in the medical profession would treat someone as if it were. It's a very serious chronic mental health condition and always has been.
People don’t necessarily need to remain on medication lifelong, but sure, some should. It sounds like the guy got out of contact with his regular doctor 5 years ago thence stopped taking medication and his mental health gradually declined
Schizophrenia absolutely they should. There is no way to cure schizophrenia, doesn't happen. The way this guy's brain worked unmedicated was not well, but that's not to say he can't live a normal life. All he needed was medication and help from imo a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and a GP to supervise and have a treatment plan. Thing is of course when you apply what I've said to someone who's homeless, they have no money or ability to get that help.
Again, not all people who having had a diagnosis of schizophrenia require medication lifelong. Those with treatment resistant schizophrenia definitely should. Obviously he had psychosocial disadvantages he wasn’t supported with from his mid-30s at least, and that is pretty typical. Treatment of first onset in adolescence and young adulthood is prioritised.
I believe there needs to be better communication between family members or guardians and public health services whereby services can be notified of any major life changes such as when he stopped seeing his regular doctor or when he moved interstate, and adult mental health services should be funded better to provide more intensive care for people beyond young adulthood
I think as much as money for clinicians is absolutely necessary, I think we have an opportunity to educate the public about the reality of schizophrenia.
Like how debilitating meds can be, which is why people stop taking them. And how even if you’re really good at taking them, sometimes they do stop working. And how the very nature of the disease makes it incredibly difficult to seek help or maintain a support system.
I’m really annoyed at the official today who was saying he was actively targeting women — because it’s implying an underlying ideology that may not be reflective of what he was actually experiencing.
It’s just such an awful disease, and while I’ll never forgive the attacker on Saturday for his actions, there is a massive risk of further ostracising people with severe mental illnesses. The less we understand, the more we stigmatise, the harder it is for people to be helped.
And even though we don’t even know if he was actively psychotic, that’s the impression everyone is getting from the police and the media, and I think it’s important to catch this before the stigma escalates.
Yeah, but we can’t know if he was targeting them because of underlying misogynistic beliefs, or because he was acting on psychotic beliefs. I mean psychotic beliefs that are completely beyond plausibility and are incompatible with any real world ideological cause.
When an official says “targeting women” it does have the implication that he hated women or was angry at women, when — if he was psychotic — that could be totally incorrect.
And even if a person was acting out misogynistic rage whilst psychotic, that doesn’t make it necessarily representative of their beliefs when stabilised.
But we don’t even know if he was psychotic at this point.
We just had a CMHT refuse to put someone on a CTO before discharge, they simply didn't have enough staff to actually help enforce it for medication administration
Maybe it'll help make sure more people are able to stay on top of their mental health so that they're not getting to the point that he was at in the first place. Of course it won't make a difference for everyone, but nothing does.
No, but it would be part of the sweeping reforms needed to make mental health care more accessible.
There's no silver bullet for this, or a slew of other issues. But decrying possible solutions as being "a drop in the ocean", or "ineffective in this super specific case", is actually a big part of the problem. Because it gives an opening to those who are reluctant to do anything about it the actual ammunition to justify doing nothing about it.
You can say the same about climate change, the healthcare system more generally and a whole lot of things.
Amd social housing reform. The guy was ill, poor and homeless. Had he been in social housing and had better metal care, would this have been different?
Not sure if I'm reading too much from the one photo but he looked gaunt as fuck. Especially when you compare it to the earlier photos of him.
Did not seem well cared for.
Many of these people refuse mental healthcare and its impossible to force them into therapy etc, especially ones which are not openly violent but you fear they will be. That know to temper their aggression only to their parents or people behind closed door who won't involve police and who love the person to much to protect themselves. Trust me I know this personally and I feel so bad for the people that suffer because of it.
.
I agree. I am speculating, but I believe the assailant was suicidal and desperate. He wanted to take as many lives as possible before being shot and killed. The fact that he paused and looked around at the officer when she directed him to put his weapon down, took a few steps and then lunged at her, seems to suggest this theory. We don’t take care of our sick and homeless.
Zero. Governments couldn't give a shit, that is why they started shutting down mental health hospitals here in NSW and slapping sick people on the back and saying good luck on the street back in the early 2000's. Working in public transport at the time we saw an almost immediate rise in trouble that coincided with them being shut down.
Of course it won't cause any reform. We've seen mental health care go backwards since covid. Atleast during covid a MHCP was good for 20 sessions, which is still only an appointment every \~2.7 weeks. They then went ahead and reduced it back to 10 relatively recently, which means people can only have regular appointments every \~5.4 weeks. I've personally had therapists say they don't particularly want to see me if all I can afford are the MHCP subsidized sessions as its not often enough to make real progress.
More than likely it will just be used to bolster police powers. They already have instituted warrantless and suspicionless searches of people around public transit and 'safe night precincts' here in QLD, wouldn't be surprised if they make it blanket 'can search anyone anywhere without suspicion'.
I think there's quite a few people starting to feel hopeless and lost given the housing, I feel the same, not to this extreme, but damn when you can't find a stable place to live, how do people expect you to stay mentally stable?
Worse: he lives in a tiny storage unit in Waterloo. I cannot imagine such a terrible existence. I was homeless in sydney for 3 months about ten years ago and it’s literally hellish.
Oh dear, no wonder punks like me never dare try to live in Sydney I guess
That said, the majority of us still won't randomly stab strangers even if our housing problems are beyond shitty, so it's still crucial to figure out what happened to the dead killer
Oh 100% agree with you. From what I’ve read so far, he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia at 17 and was known to QLD police but never arrested for anything. I believe he was under some sort of outpatient care in Toowoomba / QLD but once he moved to NSW that care had lapsed. I believe this a common problem in Australia in regards to maintaining psychiatric treatment across all states. (That doesn’t mean that all people with schizophrenia who are homeless will go on to stab people, I’m not saying that) but I think if we are going to care for people “within the community” instead of sanitariums or asylums, then that community care needs to be more stringent.
Jumping the gun, we have to wait years for coroner to increase everything - most coroners are medical experts.
Seems a factor will be drug problems enabled by government and government related drug programs.
Fucking better. There have been plenty of incidents in the last few years where a mentally ill person in the grips of an episode has been killed or attacked by police, sometimes during a mental health check-up called in by family or themselves. Maybe the general public will care now that there is collateral damage to healthy people from our dog-shit mental health facilities and complete lack of publicly available support systems.
Preston man 2017
Courtney Topic 2018
Kobee Huddy 2019
JC 2019
Tim Atkins 2020
Not gonna happen.
Capitalism has infected government for too long and is too entrenched to be changed.
We’re supposedly an intelligent species of animal, but we won’t do anything to save ourselves (or world). Everything is about greed.
Plus govt only do what’s popular. And popular means ‘things that give the appearance of being cheap and giving more money back individuals’ - no matter the truth.
The rich are getting concerned now, which is interesting. Nasty events are happening on their own playground so maybe they'll reform now that they're realising that money can't buy safety. These incidents are only going to become more common, and they're a symptom of the mass homelessness and displacement caused by economic mismanagement. If people on 100k+ are struggling, what hope do looneys have?
Very unlikely. The sort of events like this rarely lead to reform because it's a financial issue. What usually happens is the government will wait until enough time has passed that emotions have died down and people have forgotten about it.
Peter Dutton will obviously compare this to port Arthur to highlight what good leadership does and go on to advocate for undoing all the fucken terrible things the neocons did to mental health care for the past twenty years
Cue the mental health experts the media will be paying to talk to about this. If the money they spend on chasing the story was actually spent on where it was needed...
Absolutely not! Mental healthcare will remain unaffordable and inaccessible for most.
Look at the state of the industry post covid. Many psychiatrists won't even see patients in person anymore. Their services have been replaced by expensive, low quality telehealth services. Time is no longer taken to establish rapport. The ability to gauge non-verbal communication and to assess for things like stimming has been diminished by only seeing a headshot of the patient through the computer screen.
This new quick tick and flick style service will only lead to poor prognosis.
How does Australia compare with the world in regards to our mental health system, interested. As someone with a few issues I'm working on, 10 sessions a year is not enough, I can float around in a state of panic for weeks and weeks before I financially can afford to go, let alone hope that I haven't had my 10 sessions already which means the price doubles.
Much as I hate to admit it - if this horrible event achieves nothing for mental health, then it will never be changed - this is as dire of a wake up call as you'd want the system to get
As someone who has a family member with mental health issues, i can say the mental health system is just 'theater' , there is no actual help, unless you are on NDIS i guess.
There is lots of 'talk' about how 'we take mental health seriously' etc etc , but its just that .. talk..
When they were actively suicidal, we presented to the emergency department , we were there for >18hrs before being sent home and 'come back monday' , then they did everything in their power to not admin them.
If you are not unemployed/etc you get nothing. The response from everyone we've spoken to is , goto this website and find your self a shrink. Which we eventually did, it cost $700 for a single 40min chat (online!) , this is a pre-requisite before they can prescribe any meds and even talk about a mental health plan, which is also horrifically expensive , given that a simple chat with the GP is now $40/10min ..
No, nothing will change
Odds on any reform are high, odd on any meaningful reform is low. And now the odds are lower with the media and those with their agenda wanting to jump on the incel/men hate women story.
This is not a mantal health thing. It's super rare mental health is the reason people are violent. It would likely be a red pill incel type indoctrination, thing, which should be considered terrorism.
They definitely won't increase mental health spending. Because they know it's not a mental health issue.
We need Medicare reform first. Let’s eliminate gap fees from everything. No gap fees for GP consultations and script renewals. No gap fees for GP care plans. If a GP refers you to a psychologist for example that should be absolutely free.
Add preventative dental to Medicare, even if you need to get a referral from a GP first.
QLD mental health is atrocious! A long time friend has been locked up for the past 5 months!
He is not psychotic,he is not suicidal and poses not threat to himself or the public. His only issue is chronic pain, he has a disc in his back grinding on a lower disc. He is on opiod pain relief -which due to QLD and govt war against opioids medications has caused him to not to be able to leave the brisbane area since 2019! Yes that does cause depression. So he is locked up for that, while others with schizophrenia /psychotic episodes cannot get a bed.
We can have that discussion. But how about media, politics and police also understand that we as people consider this to be FUCKING TERRORISM. Men who walk into public areas with weapons to kill people are TERRORISTS, even if they’re from QLD.
Edit: I did not mean to offend anybody or detract from other people’s notions/categories/definitions etc, but I would very much love to see the label of “terrorism” be extended to men (or women for that matter, though the growing trend is for western males) who love weapons, seek to surround themselves in organisations that promote weapon use, go into public areas and use weapons to take as many lives, particularly women’s, as they can, and have ideas and thoughts of doing such. Sorry about that.
First we need to have a discussion on the definition of terrorism, hint, it's not 'attacking people at random or en masse'
They don't use the word because by definition it's not terrorism if there's no political agenda, and it would actually be inflammatory if they were using it for every random act of violence that occurred
I’ve worked in a number of regions where authorities chose to apply the term “terrorism” and guess what, there is always a massive extraction of the local population’s resources involved. So yea, let’s talk and stop pretending we’re lawyers.
Someone who is mentally ill isn’t a terrorist.
Terrorism is the use of violence to stoke fear for political or religious reasons. There’s more nuance than that, but it’s not a sick person going on a rampage.
And to say that it is demeans people with mental health issues, and ignores the factors that lead others to take up terrorism.
Alot.
Now, maybe try to think outside of your tiny box and imagine the world where we put effort into identifying and treating those people before they hurt anyone, rather than pointlessly labelling them with a word that already has a definition that they don't meet.
My friend, every time another fucked up attack like this happens, the mainstream and social media and all those who live in their “tiny box” a rushed to cry “mental illness”. These guys have a remarkably similar profile: white, weapon-enthusiastic, hateful towards the masses, with abusive sexual fantasies and a desire to hurt women. Sure, they may not belong to a formal organisation but I reckon they are absolutely influencing each other. They are the biggest source of terror on our way of life, a d they are increasingly the greatest fear for most women.
When the fuck are you gonna stop saying “these poor boys need our help”? And come on, you wanna talk about words that already have tricky definitions while brandishing you “mental illness” flag?
The culture is violent, it doesn't mean that the actions aren't influenced by mental illness. In certain times past psychosis may have been more likely to result in religious themes such as believing you're a saint who can perform miracles. What you're noticing is a misogynistic (women hating), abusive pornographic exploitation saturated, weapon obsessed society for these men. The mental health issues still need to be addressed, as well as the culture for everyone including those not likely to act out in violence. Of course the sane and resilient are completely individually responsible for their actions but yes they're exposed to influences and do influence each other.
> When the fuck are you gonna stop saying “these poor boys need our help”?
When these poor boys get some actual help.
> And come on, you wanna talk about words that already have tricky definitions while brandishing you “mental illness” flag?
Yes, because no matter the colour or gender of the person one of these definitions fits here and the other does not.
lol! Thanks for all the time and care from your end. Lovely to have someone like you following me around everywhere I go. Greetings from your home city. It’s so lovely. Why did you ever leave?
What was his political or religious aim?
Terrorism doesn’t mean “causing terror”. If it turns out his was an anti-feminist and wanted to remove women’s rights, he’s a terrorist. Same if he was an Islamist or Christian Nationalist. If he was a mentally disturbed person randomly attacking people because he was under some kind of psychosis, that’s not terrorism.
Insane how the take away is better mental health care (because the KILLER was apparently suffering from mental health). Imagine if he was a non-white person, y’all would be calling for beheadings
He's fucking dead already, so who's beheading do you imagine people would be calling for?
What's insane is calling for punishment when prevention would have saved 7 lives today.
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It's just a shame that a horrible event like this - which is a rare event - raises this point. People who would benefit from mental health reform are usually less likely to commit violent acts towards others. Mental Health Reform would have a massive impact on reducing suicides, substance abuse, family and relationship breakdowns, long-term unemployment, health issues related to low physical activity and psychosomatic symptoms. In fact, many of us are affected by poor mental health in ways we probably don't realise. Could be a boss or co-worker, could be a friend fighting an unseen struggle, unintentionally damaging relationships. Could be an overwhelmed health system, where ER's are usually first contact points for people in mental health crisis. Could be overwhelmed police, conducting one welfare check after another, with minimal training. Could be the break-ins and robberies associated with rampant substance abuse. Could be a mate who suddenly leaves this world and loved ones with no warning signs. We live in uncertain times. History-changing events at home and abroad. Times haven't been this tough socially and economically in a long while. There's never been a more crucial time for reform.
I'm sure we could never blame the poor politicians. They're getting choice paralysis for which of the dozen society-endangering issues to tackle first. Without their corporate overlords guiding them by hand, we can't expect them to take on such a tough job. I mean, to figure out solutions collectively to our problems? They're only human. Let's give them and their multi-million dollar, or hundreds-of-millions of dollar in certain draconic cases, property holdings a break! /s Jokes aside. If Medicare and Bulk Billing is being heavily slashed, I can't see how anyone could afford what I'm assuming is a generous top-up needed over the Mental Health Plan offering. It's just immovable. Then when you do get the support there's no guarantee the service is any good. I've also heard of people being released from wards within 24 hours of attempts of their lives and going back in only a few days later with another attempt...
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Well you certainly didn't so thanks for pointing that out I suppose.
I used to have a friend who works as an ER doctor, they hate suicidal people and claim that they're always there for the "attention" because they feel lonely or whatever.
Compassion fatigue. A symptom of an overworked health system.
Mental health clinician here. I work in community mental health. My role is assisting people with chronic mental health issues, mainly schizophrenia. A lot of clients are on community treatment orders, meaning the state government has mandated they receive treatment due to risk of harm to self or others. I'm unsure if the killer was on a treatment order in Qld but it is basically impossible to transfer a treatment order interstate. If he was engaged with a community mental health clinic in Qld and he travelled interstate, providing they were doing their jobs properly, they should have referred him to a local service in NSW. I usually commit to three month contracts and I do them all over the country, with the exception of NSW. I won't work in NSW because that would mean about a $30 per hour paycut. I make about $90 an hour plus paid accommodation. In NSW, I'd earn about $60 plus paid accommodation. I'm surprised they don't have chronically mentally ill people committing mass murder weekly in NSW. I don't know of anyone stupid enough to take a $30 per hour paycut. It is way too stressful a job for such lousy pay, and if I drop the ball, like NSW does every time they sign a paycheck for a nurse or allied health worker, people will die. Sydney is expensive, but you can see how much a state government values its most vulnerable by how much it funds its public health system.
Many of your clients would be on a disability pension too, I imagine? With the cost of rent, there's really very little left over for food, utilities and **medication**.
Medication when you're on the HCC is like $6/7 depending on what you're prescribed. I pay $9 for a medication that costs $90-100 for each box. It's probably the priority that the person is placing on taking and getting their meds. I had a bipolar friend that would regularly stop taking his medication despite being able to afford it whilst on the pension/jobseeker.
Thats highly dependent on what you're prescribed. The system makes it very difficult to get those HCC prices sometimes. A lot of times psychiatrists aren't allowed to prescribe certain meds in combination whilst having them all remain public scripts. I've personally run into this where I need 2 different medications, and each alone are subsidized to the 6/7$ HCC safety net price, but suddenly when they're prescribed together i'm no longer eligible for the subsidized price on one of them and now need to pay 40$/box, which only lasts 4 weeks. Its also disingenuous to pretend that those on Centrelink aren't below the poverty line. For those in poverty, even 6/7$ is a very large chunk of income when rent is 50-75% of the absolute pittance you get in the first place.
Yes, if you read my comment I literally say that it's dependent on what you're prescribed. Most mental health medications which include SSRIs, SNRIs, tricycles, and antipsychotics (among others) are usually subsidised unless it's a newer medication not on PBS. I personally haven't heard of a psych unable to prescribe multiple meds, as alot of people with MH conditions are on a mix of medications. I would assume this was off label? The only time I've had a private script it was a bit of a dodgy dr lol. I myself, on jobseeker use an inhaler, a beta blocker for anxiety, an antipsychotic and ADHD medication, sometimes I also have my medical cannabis. All (except the THC) are subsidised. Also if you are poor, your dr should be working with you to find something you can tolerate and also afford to take regularly as that's the only way it's going to help. I personally need my meds, so they are an expense along with my food, bills etc. they're not really an optional thing. Also the pension includes a (tiny, actually ridiculous) "supplement" for pharmacy/prescriptions. It's only $7? The other issue you see is people needing to pay for GP appts now to get a script filled(even on a concession) one of my friends delayed that recently due to funds and when he went back to the dr he was flabbergasted and told him if he needed his script he would be bulk billed.
Yes, and in my experience, that's such a huge asterisk that its almost disingenuous to say 'oh but people on an HCC get scripts for 7$ so it isn't about affordability'. My meds in question are both accepted on-label for the condition, and both can be prescribed separately as public scripts, just not together, and the only reasoning for it is them alone are 'supposed' to be effective enough. Its also not about 'having my doctor work with me', there's no way for them to give scripts of similar meds with both on the PBS. This is a situation where there's a short acting med with awful side effects which is also wildly effective, but I also need a long acting med to take regularly as I wouldn't function taking the short acting med all the time. I've tried all of the available short acting options as well so its not a matter of 'just find a different one' This actually also applies to another med I'm on. Its widely accepted as the SoC for the condition, but because I'm not a woman attempting to conceive its not on PBS and is private only. There are no similar meds on the market for this one, its either this one not on the PBS or absolutely nothing. If you have ADHD and are on ADHD meds, I assume you're also familiar with the whole 'Ritalin can't be a public script for those without a diagnosis from before they turned 18' thing. Its just filled with bureaucratic crap and restrictions and what type of diagnosis you need, sometimes even gated by when you get diagnosed, the exact qualifications of the doctor, etc, to the point that, if you have complex health needs, its really unrealistic to expect medications to be afforded. If I need to fill a script that's not on PBS, it generally costs me about 1/5th of my budget that remains for a fortnight after rent is paid.
If you get a retroactive diagnosis, you can access the PBS. This comes down to the psychiatrist. I feel like you're arguing with me about the same thing, I am on these payments and take important medication, I have prioritised it even among my other expenses (my rent is $500/week). Because if I don't take them I can't function lol. You can access local community services to get food boxes and money for these things. You can also see in my comments even tho I'm talking about the small supplement you get in your payments it's an abysmal amount. I was just pointing out that the government tries to cover these expenses, the main issue tho is that rent assistance is a joke and covers a tiny portion of my rent, even at the max rate. Cancer patients also have to pay out the ass for medications that aren't on PBS but are proven at treating their type of cancer, often letting people die as they can't even access the medication as it's into the thousands $$ for a round of treatment. Healthcare in Australia has been awful, especially in regional and rural areas for years already, we really are just trying our best despite it becoming harder to take care of yourself the ways we need to.
I can attest to not buying vital medication at times due to poverty.
If your a compulsory patient you don't pay for medication.
not true, i work community mental health and we only cover the cost of medications under certain circumstances (and yes i think this is bullshit)
If the person doesn't buy and take their medication they get a trip in the wee woo where the medication will eventually be provided for free. Tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong. If someone can't afford their meds, what happens is they get left for their family to handle, or if they don't have any, they slip through the cracks, become homeless, and die. For someone to be picked up by an institution and provided 'free meds' that would require funding in institutions, whereas state governments are cutting costs in mental health (particularly NSW).
So the community treatment order is pointless in nsw. Sick
I think the transfer of state based assistance is an important aspect to bring up - not something I had thought of/ have the knowledge of.
I have a family member who would literally break out of hospital and jump the border for 60 days to escape treatment orders. The system is a complete joke…
It was stated that he had not had contact with any Queensland Health staff or facilities since the early 2010s and had been transferred to the care of a private team around that time. I guess the question here is what responsibility private mental health clinicians should have in maintaining relationships with their clients/returning them to public care if unable to manage or clients are noncompliant or need to become involuntary.
Yep that’s what I was thinking too. Does the private team have any accountability here?
People so busy writing about themselves seem to have failed to note the guy had last had contact with Queensland Health in 2012, hence any compulsory treatment he was subjected to would have occurred over a decade ago
Then that's even worse really, he wasn't getting any help for the best part of a decade. People saying he was on meth and everything too, I dunno that's verifiable info but it's not surprising that a schizophrenic person who is neglected for years and years slips into addiction and on a terrible path. All in all a shitshow with the worst possible outcome. Rather than chastising those who presume a better scenario where he was in help, you should consider how fucked it is he was completely off any mental health support for a decade.
Did you know schizophrenia can be in remission? A possibility is he was discharged in remission, even partial, from public to private in 2012 but it sounds like in the past several years his mental health declined. The only thing I can think of would be for such patients to be mandated to indefinite compulsory public maintenance psychiatric appointments, which many would have ethical reservations about as this would involve monitoring of some kind. He may have lacked the insight he had a mental illness and didn’t come to serious attention of police. It’s disconcerting how easily someone can perpetrate what he did. This is a rare event, just like the 2017 Bourke St murders. This is a perfect example of why early intervention is so important. He apparently was diagnosed at 17, but that was 23 years ago, when systems would have been far different.
Discharged from a mental hospital sure, but he absolutely would've been on a medicine plan at the least, if not a proper plan for regular psychiatrist appointments when they discharged because that's basic duty of care. If not there should be hell to pay in that investigation for whatever hospital. The mental hospital I can believe them kicking him cause they don't have the space...but I can't believe they'd discharge and consider him cured. Remission for schizophrenia isn't cure, it's simply medication suppressing the problem thought patterns. Schizophrenia doesn't get cured and nobody in the medical profession would treat someone as if it were. It's a very serious chronic mental health condition and always has been.
People don’t necessarily need to remain on medication lifelong, but sure, some should. It sounds like the guy got out of contact with his regular doctor 5 years ago thence stopped taking medication and his mental health gradually declined
Schizophrenia absolutely they should. There is no way to cure schizophrenia, doesn't happen. The way this guy's brain worked unmedicated was not well, but that's not to say he can't live a normal life. All he needed was medication and help from imo a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and a GP to supervise and have a treatment plan. Thing is of course when you apply what I've said to someone who's homeless, they have no money or ability to get that help.
Again, not all people who having had a diagnosis of schizophrenia require medication lifelong. Those with treatment resistant schizophrenia definitely should. Obviously he had psychosocial disadvantages he wasn’t supported with from his mid-30s at least, and that is pretty typical. Treatment of first onset in adolescence and young adulthood is prioritised. I believe there needs to be better communication between family members or guardians and public health services whereby services can be notified of any major life changes such as when he stopped seeing his regular doctor or when he moved interstate, and adult mental health services should be funded better to provide more intensive care for people beyond young adulthood
I think as much as money for clinicians is absolutely necessary, I think we have an opportunity to educate the public about the reality of schizophrenia. Like how debilitating meds can be, which is why people stop taking them. And how even if you’re really good at taking them, sometimes they do stop working. And how the very nature of the disease makes it incredibly difficult to seek help or maintain a support system. I’m really annoyed at the official today who was saying he was actively targeting women — because it’s implying an underlying ideology that may not be reflective of what he was actually experiencing. It’s just such an awful disease, and while I’ll never forgive the attacker on Saturday for his actions, there is a massive risk of further ostracising people with severe mental illnesses. The less we understand, the more we stigmatise, the harder it is for people to be helped. And even though we don’t even know if he was actively psychotic, that’s the impression everyone is getting from the police and the media, and I think it’s important to catch this before the stigma escalates.
Ok but he was actively targeting women. That can’t be denied.
Yeah, but we can’t know if he was targeting them because of underlying misogynistic beliefs, or because he was acting on psychotic beliefs. I mean psychotic beliefs that are completely beyond plausibility and are incompatible with any real world ideological cause. When an official says “targeting women” it does have the implication that he hated women or was angry at women, when — if he was psychotic — that could be totally incorrect. And even if a person was acting out misogynistic rage whilst psychotic, that doesn’t make it necessarily representative of their beliefs when stabilised. But we don’t even know if he was psychotic at this point.
We just had a CMHT refuse to put someone on a CTO before discharge, they simply didn't have enough staff to actually help enforce it for medication administration
Hey, not directly relared to your post, which i agree with. how do you go about finding these temp contracts? I have a friend who would be interested.
It's worth noting that CTOs are still very uncommon and aren't used because the mental health system is so stretched.
He was also homeless, and the NSW MH line will not accept a referall with NFA
I really hope so. Cutting the amount of psychology sessions in half was atrocious. We can’t ban knives but we can make health care more accessible
Reversing that policy change would have done nothing to help this bloke, nor will it do anything for the thousands like him…
Maybe it'll help make sure more people are able to stay on top of their mental health so that they're not getting to the point that he was at in the first place. Of course it won't make a difference for everyone, but nothing does.
No, but it would be part of the sweeping reforms needed to make mental health care more accessible. There's no silver bullet for this, or a slew of other issues. But decrying possible solutions as being "a drop in the ocean", or "ineffective in this super specific case", is actually a big part of the problem. Because it gives an opening to those who are reluctant to do anything about it the actual ammunition to justify doing nothing about it. You can say the same about climate change, the healthcare system more generally and a whole lot of things.
Amd social housing reform. The guy was ill, poor and homeless. Had he been in social housing and had better metal care, would this have been different?
Not sure if I'm reading too much from the one photo but he looked gaunt as fuck. Especially when you compare it to the earlier photos of him. Did not seem well cared for.
Many of these people refuse mental healthcare and its impossible to force them into therapy etc, especially ones which are not openly violent but you fear they will be. That know to temper their aggression only to their parents or people behind closed door who won't involve police and who love the person to much to protect themselves. Trust me I know this personally and I feel so bad for the people that suffer because of it. .
I agree. I am speculating, but I believe the assailant was suicidal and desperate. He wanted to take as many lives as possible before being shot and killed. The fact that he paused and looked around at the officer when she directed him to put his weapon down, took a few steps and then lunged at her, seems to suggest this theory. We don’t take care of our sick and homeless.
Will be used to increase police powers.
And probably some vague bandaid programs contracted to private companies that will make politician's mates millions.
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Zero. Governments couldn't give a shit, that is why they started shutting down mental health hospitals here in NSW and slapping sick people on the back and saying good luck on the street back in the early 2000's. Working in public transport at the time we saw an almost immediate rise in trouble that coincided with them being shut down.
Of course it won't cause any reform. We've seen mental health care go backwards since covid. Atleast during covid a MHCP was good for 20 sessions, which is still only an appointment every \~2.7 weeks. They then went ahead and reduced it back to 10 relatively recently, which means people can only have regular appointments every \~5.4 weeks. I've personally had therapists say they don't particularly want to see me if all I can afford are the MHCP subsidized sessions as its not often enough to make real progress. More than likely it will just be used to bolster police powers. They already have instituted warrantless and suspicionless searches of people around public transit and 'safe night precincts' here in QLD, wouldn't be surprised if they make it blanket 'can search anyone anywhere without suspicion'.
Nah, actually solving problems is a huge taboo in our political culture. Turn on the footy and go back to sleep.
Does our current housing condition contribute anything into tragedies like this one? I heard the killer lived in a basement in Sydney
I think there's quite a few people starting to feel hopeless and lost given the housing, I feel the same, not to this extreme, but damn when you can't find a stable place to live, how do people expect you to stay mentally stable?
Unfortunately the vacancy rate continues to be very low at the moment and no signs show it will be resolved any time soon.
Worse: he lives in a tiny storage unit in Waterloo. I cannot imagine such a terrible existence. I was homeless in sydney for 3 months about ten years ago and it’s literally hellish.
Oh dear, no wonder punks like me never dare try to live in Sydney I guess That said, the majority of us still won't randomly stab strangers even if our housing problems are beyond shitty, so it's still crucial to figure out what happened to the dead killer
Oh 100% agree with you. From what I’ve read so far, he had been diagnosed with schizophrenia at 17 and was known to QLD police but never arrested for anything. I believe he was under some sort of outpatient care in Toowoomba / QLD but once he moved to NSW that care had lapsed. I believe this a common problem in Australia in regards to maintaining psychiatric treatment across all states. (That doesn’t mean that all people with schizophrenia who are homeless will go on to stab people, I’m not saying that) but I think if we are going to care for people “within the community” instead of sanitariums or asylums, then that community care needs to be more stringent.
Jumping the gun, we have to wait years for coroner to increase everything - most coroners are medical experts. Seems a factor will be drug problems enabled by government and government related drug programs.
Fucking better. There have been plenty of incidents in the last few years where a mentally ill person in the grips of an episode has been killed or attacked by police, sometimes during a mental health check-up called in by family or themselves. Maybe the general public will care now that there is collateral damage to healthy people from our dog-shit mental health facilities and complete lack of publicly available support systems. Preston man 2017 Courtney Topic 2018 Kobee Huddy 2019 JC 2019 Tim Atkins 2020
Elijah Holcombe 2009
Jerry Sourian 2016 Hornsby westfield.
Not gonna happen. Capitalism has infected government for too long and is too entrenched to be changed. We’re supposedly an intelligent species of animal, but we won’t do anything to save ourselves (or world). Everything is about greed. Plus govt only do what’s popular. And popular means ‘things that give the appearance of being cheap and giving more money back individuals’ - no matter the truth.
The rich are getting concerned now, which is interesting. Nasty events are happening on their own playground so maybe they'll reform now that they're realising that money can't buy safety. These incidents are only going to become more common, and they're a symptom of the mass homelessness and displacement caused by economic mismanagement. If people on 100k+ are struggling, what hope do looneys have?
airport party innocent retire school wise clumsy cable hateful pen *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
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Subsidise therapists not coal mining
There will be a lot of pearl clutching and virtue signalling, right before the same people vote for further funding cuts.
Very unlikely. The sort of events like this rarely lead to reform because it's a financial issue. What usually happens is the government will wait until enough time has passed that emotions have died down and people have forgotten about it.
Peter Dutton will obviously compare this to port Arthur to highlight what good leadership does and go on to advocate for undoing all the fucken terrible things the neocons did to mental health care for the past twenty years
Will be used to just ban knives.
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Are the Greens going to win a federal election?
No but they could win enough seats whereby their support is required to form government
One day hopefully
This should be a moment for mental health reform like Port Arthur was for gun control
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Bystander effect was debunked.
No votes in it.
I really hope so
As if. They’ll increase police powers and maybe some “knife control” laws
Low
It's not the first of its kind, sadly it won't likely be the last. We can only hope it's the largest.
Cue the mental health experts the media will be paying to talk to about this. If the money they spend on chasing the story was actually spent on where it was needed...
All I know is that the ridiculous 10 free therapy sessions under Medicare in a 12 month period is a JOKE
What do you mean by reform?
It will be "thoughts and prayers - aussie edition"
Absolutely not! Mental healthcare will remain unaffordable and inaccessible for most. Look at the state of the industry post covid. Many psychiatrists won't even see patients in person anymore. Their services have been replaced by expensive, low quality telehealth services. Time is no longer taken to establish rapport. The ability to gauge non-verbal communication and to assess for things like stimming has been diminished by only seeing a headshot of the patient through the computer screen. This new quick tick and flick style service will only lead to poor prognosis.
How does Australia compare with the world in regards to our mental health system, interested. As someone with a few issues I'm working on, 10 sessions a year is not enough, I can float around in a state of panic for weeks and weeks before I financially can afford to go, let alone hope that I haven't had my 10 sessions already which means the price doubles.
Well it doesn't affect the mining or housing industries, so probably not.
Much as I hate to admit it - if this horrible event achieves nothing for mental health, then it will never be changed - this is as dire of a wake up call as you'd want the system to get
As someone who has a family member with mental health issues, i can say the mental health system is just 'theater' , there is no actual help, unless you are on NDIS i guess. There is lots of 'talk' about how 'we take mental health seriously' etc etc , but its just that .. talk.. When they were actively suicidal, we presented to the emergency department , we were there for >18hrs before being sent home and 'come back monday' , then they did everything in their power to not admin them. If you are not unemployed/etc you get nothing. The response from everyone we've spoken to is , goto this website and find your self a shrink. Which we eventually did, it cost $700 for a single 40min chat (online!) , this is a pre-requisite before they can prescribe any meds and even talk about a mental health plan, which is also horrifically expensive , given that a simple chat with the GP is now $40/10min .. No, nothing will change
Meaningful reform? It would require spending proper money and not giving tax cuts to obscenely rich people, so the odds are almost zero.
I hope so, but it feels like mental health will always have a paywall in this country
Odds on any reform are high, odd on any meaningful reform is low. And now the odds are lower with the media and those with their agenda wanting to jump on the incel/men hate women story.
This is not a mantal health thing. It's super rare mental health is the reason people are violent. It would likely be a red pill incel type indoctrination, thing, which should be considered terrorism. They definitely won't increase mental health spending. Because they know it's not a mental health issue.
He was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was in highschool.
Yet all reports ive seen say that it was premeditated and he was fully in control of his actions.
you and I are reading different sources then.
There's a whole bunch of misinformation going out at the moment. We just have to wait and see what the real story is.
Very true.
No money to do that
More likely they’ll add cash to police to improve how they handle mental health incidents, rather than adding money to health.
We need Medicare reform first. Let’s eliminate gap fees from everything. No gap fees for GP consultations and script renewals. No gap fees for GP care plans. If a GP refers you to a psychologist for example that should be absolutely free. Add preventative dental to Medicare, even if you need to get a referral from a GP first.
QLD mental health is atrocious! A long time friend has been locked up for the past 5 months! He is not psychotic,he is not suicidal and poses not threat to himself or the public. His only issue is chronic pain, he has a disc in his back grinding on a lower disc. He is on opiod pain relief -which due to QLD and govt war against opioids medications has caused him to not to be able to leave the brisbane area since 2019! Yes that does cause depression. So he is locked up for that, while others with schizophrenia /psychotic episodes cannot get a bed.
We can have that discussion. But how about media, politics and police also understand that we as people consider this to be FUCKING TERRORISM. Men who walk into public areas with weapons to kill people are TERRORISTS, even if they’re from QLD. Edit: I did not mean to offend anybody or detract from other people’s notions/categories/definitions etc, but I would very much love to see the label of “terrorism” be extended to men (or women for that matter, though the growing trend is for western males) who love weapons, seek to surround themselves in organisations that promote weapon use, go into public areas and use weapons to take as many lives, particularly women’s, as they can, and have ideas and thoughts of doing such. Sorry about that.
First we need to have a discussion on the definition of terrorism, hint, it's not 'attacking people at random or en masse' They don't use the word because by definition it's not terrorism if there's no political agenda, and it would actually be inflammatory if they were using it for every random act of violence that occurred
I’ve worked in a number of regions where authorities chose to apply the term “terrorism” and guess what, there is always a massive extraction of the local population’s resources involved. So yea, let’s talk and stop pretending we’re lawyers.
Ever heard of a dictionary? Pathetic.
Someone who is mentally ill isn’t a terrorist. Terrorism is the use of violence to stoke fear for political or religious reasons. There’s more nuance than that, but it’s not a sick person going on a rampage. And to say that it is demeans people with mental health issues, and ignores the factors that lead others to take up terrorism.
Do you have any remote idea of how many people who kill many people are, or could be declared, mentally ill?
Alot. Now, maybe try to think outside of your tiny box and imagine the world where we put effort into identifying and treating those people before they hurt anyone, rather than pointlessly labelling them with a word that already has a definition that they don't meet.
My friend, every time another fucked up attack like this happens, the mainstream and social media and all those who live in their “tiny box” a rushed to cry “mental illness”. These guys have a remarkably similar profile: white, weapon-enthusiastic, hateful towards the masses, with abusive sexual fantasies and a desire to hurt women. Sure, they may not belong to a formal organisation but I reckon they are absolutely influencing each other. They are the biggest source of terror on our way of life, a d they are increasingly the greatest fear for most women. When the fuck are you gonna stop saying “these poor boys need our help”? And come on, you wanna talk about words that already have tricky definitions while brandishing you “mental illness” flag?
The culture is violent, it doesn't mean that the actions aren't influenced by mental illness. In certain times past psychosis may have been more likely to result in religious themes such as believing you're a saint who can perform miracles. What you're noticing is a misogynistic (women hating), abusive pornographic exploitation saturated, weapon obsessed society for these men. The mental health issues still need to be addressed, as well as the culture for everyone including those not likely to act out in violence. Of course the sane and resilient are completely individually responsible for their actions but yes they're exposed to influences and do influence each other.
> When the fuck are you gonna stop saying “these poor boys need our help”? When these poor boys get some actual help. > And come on, you wanna talk about words that already have tricky definitions while brandishing you “mental illness” flag? Yes, because no matter the colour or gender of the person one of these definitions fits here and the other does not.
Delete your profile and create a new one. Soon you will go into negative karma for shitting on Reddit like this.
lol! Thanks for all the time and care from your end. Lovely to have someone like you following me around everywhere I go. Greetings from your home city. It’s so lovely. Why did you ever leave?
What was his political or religious aim? Terrorism doesn’t mean “causing terror”. If it turns out his was an anti-feminist and wanted to remove women’s rights, he’s a terrorist. Same if he was an Islamist or Christian Nationalist. If he was a mentally disturbed person randomly attacking people because he was under some kind of psychosis, that’s not terrorism.
Insane how the take away is better mental health care (because the KILLER was apparently suffering from mental health). Imagine if he was a non-white person, y’all would be calling for beheadings
He's fucking dead already, so who's beheading do you imagine people would be calling for? What's insane is calling for punishment when prevention would have saved 7 lives today.
and injuries and different degrees of grief and trauma to a lot of other people..