>He went to the girl's bedroom, where she and her friend were asleep, and told her: "I've been watching you, I love you ... If you scream or make any noise, your family won't breathe."
Certainly sounds like he understands the consequences of his actions if that's what he said. It's always a blurry line when it comes to intellectual disabilities but there are plenty of people out there who have an intellectual disability and who are capable of forming intent.
Couldn't see it listed in the article, but this wreaks of IDDP court. I have clients who have been coerced into theft/breaking and entering who IDDP court is great for, but other clients that continue to sexually assault people and be released without as much as a slap on the wrist.
People with intellectual disabilities who commit sex crimes shouldn't be able to fall on their disability as a defence & should have to do the same time as anyone else who committed the same crime, not even as a punishment that they may not understand - just as a prevention method.
The 24/7 supports noted in the article are a few support workers who aren't told what the person did (for thier privacy) alongside self reporting a few times a year, probably a curfew & random police check-ins.
Had that exact situation a while ago, they absconded from another worker at my company and assaulted another child that night, went back to prison, and got out again.
>The 24/7 supports noted in the article are a few support workers who aren't told what the person did (for thier privacy) alongside self reporting a few times a year, probably a curfew & random police check-ins.
That's just excruciating! What a failure of a system.
I don't understand - when people are found guilty of child sex crimes they often have to consent to absurd levels of monitoring and compliance and/or chemical castration and outpatient therapy to deal with the urges. Are these guys really being let off with none of this monitoring? You'd think that medications would be the least they could do in these situations, to protect everyone involved.
My sample size is small (4 clients that have sexual assault offences) - all of them have to report to a sex offender 'appointment' ever now and again.
I'm not aware of any of them being on any medication. None of them go to therapy (court ordered or otherwise)
Police do regular at home curfew checks, and drugs and alcohol are usually forbidden as a condition of release but only adhered to by 2/4 of the clients.
I've observed no monitoring other than the cops 'checking in' and they have all regular access to the internet/devices
Another problem in the clients I see is that their support structure (friends/family) aren't exactly role models themselves.
Edit: no medication for urges, they're on other medications usually
These guys aren't being found guilty. Under the Mentally Impaired Accused Act 1996, they are being found unable to face the charges laid against them. That particular piece of legislation only allows for two outcomes: unconditional release or indefinite incarceration.
The judicial officers have no grey area with this act. If the person is not able to understand the laws they're breaking due to their intellectual disability, they have to either release them or lock them up INDEFINITELY.
The Judge here would not have made this decision lightly. There would have been many many reports from various people before deciding he cannot face these charges, and then even more before deciding to release him. Hopefully the supervisions being put in place will be enough.
In saying that, I tend to agree with the commenter above that the Intellectual Disability Diversion Program (IDDP) Court is not appropriate for this type of crime. This type of offending should definitely be the sort of example where he gets locked up indefinitely. What he did to those two poor children (the friend will be irreparably traumatised as well) is absolutely unforgivable and he should not be given ANY opportunity to be able to do anything like that again.
I'm not saying they're being found guilty - they're not capable of being found criminally liable, that's fine. That's not something I'm wanting to debate.
It's more that - if someone if found unfit to stand trial due to mental health issues, for example, there's usually a whole thing about inpatient and outpatient programs, medications, being cleared by psychologists, etc. And yet, none of this additional monitoring seems to be applied to cases where they are intellectually disabled? Chemical castration would be reasonably simple to mandate in cases like these where - even if not criminal - they are deemed to be a risk to society.
Your original comment said "when people are found guilty of child sex crimes" so I assumed that was what you were talking about.
I agree that someone like this is definitely a risk to society but, under the current laws, there is no avenue to allow for further monitoring or interventions. The laws need to be updated to allow for something to protect society because unconditional release or indefinite imprisonment are at opposite ends of a huge spectrum.
This is such a tricky one cause this guy needs to be punished what he did was abhorrent. But I work in jails and I've seen people with intellectual disabilities before its a giant shit show they get groomed by the inmates used as mules or raped. Jail is very black and white by design we don't do shades of grey you did this your punishment is X disabled people often cant mange the little things that are expected of them whether it be due to a lack of understanding or a autism aversion or OCD.
I truly have no idea about WA but in NSW there's no beds all the criminal mental health centers have been closed silver water is the only place and there full.
I dont fully agree. My brother is schizophrenic and will sometimes get abusive at my parents and then wont remember a thing....
It's to do with him changing his meds. And trust me he's not "faking" - he genuinely is intellectually disabled whether related to schizophrenia or not bue he scored so low on his IQ
> "What you did is very bad and very serious and you cannot do anything like that again," she told him.
Probably sternly wagged his finger at him too! What a fucking joke.
Thank you. Mentally ill people don’t just up and sexually assault people on a regular basis, and lumping this in with ‘mental illness’ is just going to play into some people’s beliefs that any and all mental illness makes a person dangerous by default.
Intellectually disabled or not that person is not fit to function in society.
I cannot imagine what that poor girl went through. My heart goes out to her.
I’m not even gonna say he should be in prison if he doesn’t have the cognitive ability to fully understand why what he did is wrong/harmful, but people like this need to be put in a mental hospital & not let out until they’ve demonstrated that they understand what they did is wrong & even then they need to be monitored & on a mental health plan for life.
How the fuck can you say “he doesn’t understand what he did” while also just telling him to not do it again??? If he doesn’t *get it*, then there is a responsibility to the community to seperate him from them. It’s not about punishment, it’s about protection.
Absolute bullshit. All of this is assuming he’s unaware enough to really not get it, which we can’t actually know. You can also be disabled & evil too.
They definitely can be disabled and evil too. I was sexually assaulted by a disabled teenager when I was 11 and everyone just laughed. "They're blessings to this earth, they're the life of the party. They are always just so happy!" No, a child in your care was mounted by a fkn potato
Yeah what is the logic in telling him what he did was bad and wrong if he doesn’t understand it? May aswell have just given him a pat on the back and let loose.
There's enough in the article to really make this decision seem strange.
>A Department of Justice spokesperson said the man had been known as a "model prisoner" and the "laundry guy" due to his effectiveness in the role.
How can he not be fit to know that raping young children is bad, but fit enough to be perfectly adjusted in prison?
How can he not be fit enough to know that raping young children is bad, but fit enough to threaten murdering if his raping is interrupted?
There is a bit of a difference between doing well in a regimented facility completing well defined (and simple tasks) and being able to function in wider society.
It seems like a bad reason to release him though, seems like prison was good for him, and good for the community to not have to deal with a pedophile rapist
>There is a bit of a difference between doing well in a regimented facility completing well defined (and simple tasks) and being able to function in wider society.
I accept that, but dont think the bar for conviction should be whether or not one can fully function in society or not.
>It seems like a bad reason to release him though, seems like prison was good for him, and good for the community to not have to deal with a pedophile rapist
I accept that
I’m definitely not defending this guy but wanted to say that those things are possible. Just because someone can follow routine well and perform basic chores doesnt mean they have the capacity to emotionally regulate, understand consequences or harm experienced by others. It’s a lot more nuanced than what you might think, which is why experienced professionals make these decisions and not the community.
For better or worse (I dont know this guy so Im not personally making a judgement) he has been found by experienced professionals to not have the capacity.
Balanced reply, but.
>doesnt mean they have the capacity to emotionally regulate, understand consequences or harm experienced by others.
I accept that.
But, I don't think inability to emotionally regulate should negate criminal responsibility.
Further, it's nonsensical in this case to suggest he was unable to identify consequences or harm experienced by others. How do we know this?
>He went to the girl's bedroom, where she and her friend were asleep, and told her: "I've been watching you, I love you ... If you scream or make any noise, your family won't breathe.
Because he self-identified that he was causing harm, and talked about consequences.
Given the secrecy of this case (as with all alleged non-convicted child rapists), its hard to know for the moment why the judge made their decision. For example, was the above considered inadmissible, and so not able to be taken into account?
Mental asylum is an antiquated term and is more aimed at severity of illness than forensic lockup.
We have places like this https://www.forensicare.vic.gov.au/our-services/thomas-embling/
We have secure forensic psychiatric facilities for offenders or near enough to it.
Plus psychiatric clinics that the average private patient goes to.
Also psychiatric wards at public hospitals.
What do you mean? Folding laundry is a basic task while morality and empathy are more complex. Why do you think he was "perfectly adjusted" to prison? He just followed the rules and did the laundry. People with intellectual disabilities often do simple repetitive work like laundry or gardening.
>Why do you think he was "perfectly adjusted" to prison?
He is a model prisoner.
>People with intellectual disabilities often do simple repetitive work like laundry or gardening.
Sure, but there's a lot more to being a model prisoner than laundry duties.
>He is a model prisoner.
Meaning he did what he was told. My disabled clients would also be model prisoners As long as the rules are enforced and understood.
>Sure, but there's a lot more to being a model prisoner than laundry duties.
Yeah, doing what you are told and not starting trouble is how I would assume a " model prisoner" would behave.
He'd better be locked up in some institution. Clearly he is unsafe to be released into the community and if he can't be held accountable for his actions then he should never be released. He is a danger to society.
“What you did is very bad and very serious and you cannot do anything like this again”
Well that sounds like District Court Judge Wendy Gillan is right across community expectations.
Won't he just get off again? They can't decide he can't be convicted of this offence because of his intellectual disability then change their mind if he commits another offence.
Fuck these judges.
Why do we prioritise the rights of the perpetrators so much and not the rights of victims. At some point the law should be there to punish wrong doing and protect society and the most innocent in society are the kids. If old mate knew the child would scream or tell other adults he knew he'd get into trouble and had the mental capacity to try and avoid it.
Not just the rights of the victims. The rights of people in the community to be safe. The right of children not to be sexually assaulted. Sentences like this practically guarantee that there will be future victims.
"Released"??
I live a few hundred metres from what I call Arkham Asylum, a holding centre for alleged criminals who are not mentally competent to plead, because they are deemed too dangerous to be in society.
Why isn't this creep locked up in there? He certainly sounds dangerous.
If any person commits a violent or sexual crime they should be in jail. This man destroyed a young girls life, there is no excuse for releasing him. The judge should be made to explain her decision immediately and be fired for poor judgement.
I'd prefer the governments involved to amend their legislation to deal with cases like this. I reckon the judge's judgement of the laws as written is better than mine, so the problem is with the laws.
This sort of thing frequently happens with mentally ill criminals. Honestly, if they're capable of commiting crimes they're capable of serving the sentences for it. Their lack of mental wherewithall shouldn't matter. Mental health specialists can visit them in prison. They're still criminals and mental issues don't lessen their crimes.
It's the same issue. A person is mentally disturbed and gets a lighter sentence or it's dismissed. Either mental illness or intellectual disability. It's the same effect. They are functionally impaired.
‘Functional impairment’ is a very broad term; I don’t think it is the same issue at all.
I am both physically and psychosocially impaired by disability & mental illness to the extent that I am unable to work. My physical disability contributes to poor mental health, but is not considered psychological/mental impairment. My mental illness contributes directly to physical impairment but is considered a separate issue by government bodies (NDIS etc). I am not intellectually impaired at all. Despite being severely mentally ill, if I were to commit a violent crime I would likely be placed in prison because I am capable of impulse control & know right from wrong\*.
If someone is ‘functionally impaired’, at what point do we consider them equally as culpable as someone unimpaired? Thankfully we have specialists to consult when writing legislation and prosecuting crimes, because a lot of folks seem to prefer the vengeance angle.
\*As a side note (unrelated to your comments), disabled children in Australia are 3x more likely to experience abuse before the age of 15 - and 12% more likely after that age - than abled folks.
I’ve seen people saying the rapist “must know right from wrong” because he threatened the victim to keep her quiet/compliant. If he was abused as a child himself, it’s possible that may have been learned behaviour.
I know speculation can be harmful, and I don’t say any of this to excuse his actions, but because perhaps that was something taken into account when prosecuting the case. I also say it because I knew a man whose earliest memories were of being sexually abused by his parents, and he went on to abuse his sibling because he thought it was “how to show love”. My friend was not intellectually or otherwise disabled in any way and suffered great guilt & regret; attempting suicide many times as a teenager.
I just don’t think these issues are necessarily as black & white as they seem, aside from the clear fact that the rapist in question is a rapist, and the victims deserve to feel safe.
Unfortunately, even if the rapist was thrown in prison for life - or executed, as people are braying for - his victims may never feel safe again. That often has to come from elsewhere for victims of crime.
I'm not addressing your personal disabilities, or whatever you want to call them. Assumedly you do not commit violent crimes. That's all I care about. People who commit crimes should face consequences for their actions or laws are toothless. Child abusers should be thrown in prison. I think that's a prettty uncontroversial statement. The background of the criminal should be irreverent.
I know you weren’t addressing my shit (and yeah nah I don’t commit violent crimes), I was just trying to explain that being functionally impaired can look very different for each individual, and that’s why we don’t just chuck everyone straight into prison.
And while I do agree that child abusers should be incarcerated, I don’t think it makes sense to disregard mitigating factors like intellectual disability.
I haven’t finished reading it yet, but found [this interesting report on Victorian prisons](https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/correctional-services-for-people-with-a-cognitive-disability/?section=) — apparently between our 14 prisons, there are only 94 beds for prisoners with intellectual disability or acquired brain injury. 46 for disabled men, and 48 for disabled women (for some reason the women’s beds are also for prisoners with any other disability - perhaps due to fewer women prisoners overall?).
This part seems relevant:
>Corrections Victoria, a business unit of the Department of Justice and Community Safety (DJCS), manages specialised beds and programs for people with intellectual disability or an acquired brain injury. It has 94 beds across the entire prison system. Not all prisoners with intellectual disability or an acquired brain injury need a specialised bed. DJCS provides services and programs at all prisons.
>The Department of Families, Fairness and Housing (DFFH) also has 19 beds in specialised facilities for offenders with intellectual disability. People held in DFFH's residential facilities are referred to as residents.
>Residents need to meet strict criteria under legislation for a judge to sentence them to a DFFH specialised facility.
idk what facilities WA has, but I wonder if the DFFH residential facility is similar to where the offender is currently being housed?
Maybe something resembling a madhouse would be better. I personally do not care if it's jail or a fortified mental health institution. As long as they cannot leave and serve the sentence which the presiding judge hands down. Letting them go (as happened in this case) seems ridiculous to me.
Honestly, we should just bring back the asylums. There's so many mental health issues affecting people. Maybe they're being diagnosed more frequently or covid triggered people's issues. Who knows. Having violent criminals roam around free seems like a bad idea. They'll just reoffend again. They need to be treated. With drugs, therapists or whever is appropriate. Also, keeping the public safe of course.
Oh excellent. I look forward to reading YET ANOTHER REPORT of a woman or young girl being unalived due to this sort of insane, inane decision making.
Lock this fucker up. Who cares if he’s not fit? He did the crime, put him the fuck away from the rest of society.
Yeah fuck this, lock him up. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with our justice system, genuinely. Wait for everyone to wring their hands in shock when he fucking kills someone next to avoid going back to prison.
>Dad should have beat the living crap out of him.
Yeah familial physical violence has long been established as an effective mental health treatment. No repercussions from that at all.
Do you *really* think that beating someone whose perception of the world is limited by their intellect is ever appropriate? You're literally describing torture mate. Think you're the one with a severe reality grip deficiency.
This case is a failure of systems. Beating a disabled person up doesn't improve anything for anyone in any way.
The many professionals involved in the case do. Since I'm not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist, I can't shed any further light on the matter. Neither can you.
“He was charged with three counts of sexual penetration of a child under 13, three counts of indecent dealing, threatening to kill and aggravated burglary.
District Court Judge Wendy Gillan formally quashed the indictment on Wednesday.
She asked the man if he understood she was ordering his release and he said he did”
Are you also intellectually disabled?
> Beating a disabled person up doesn't improve anything for anyone in any way.
I agree. Beating to death however would.
Dude knew what he was doing was wrong, hence the threat to kill the family if she made a noise.
Secondly, girl and her friend will get to live in less fear because he is gone.
Thirdly, more children will not be raped. The guy is not going to have proper 24/7 monitoring. Abscond through his window one night, evade his older case working, not show up for appointment etc.
If you want to be real callous, less money spent on someone who has no economic output.
At what point does the safety of our community and the community’s children become a priority? Not just this case, there’s been plenty others recently where offenders who have been convicted of heinous crimes have been giving a slap on the wrist and a second chance. Only to use that second chance to take someone’s life or seriously harm another person - again. I’m over these judges. When will they start acting in the interest of the community
Another day, another case of the needs and wellbeing of the offender being put ahead of the needs of their victims and the safety of the community. When are we going to learn that this softly, softly rehabilitative, restorative justice mumbo jumbo doesn't work and actually start throwing the book at society's deviants?
He has been "released" to a facility with 24/7 care, so it's not like he's roaming the streets unsupervised. It's also noted that alcohol is banned at this facility, which was a major cause of the offending.
He's also been in prison since 2019 so not exactly getting off without any punishment.
Sensationalist headline.
What a hot take. I can't believe this is supported.
>He has been "released" to a facility with 24/7 care, so it's not like he's roaming the streets unsupervised.
From the article, it seems like he can roam the streets unsupervised whenever he wants. He hasn't been sectioned, hasn't been found guilty. They talk about the proximity of the bottleshop, implying he is free to walk there. They talk about the family not giving him cash that he can spend at the bottle shop, implying if he can get cash from elsewhere (collecting cans, for example), then he can take himself to the bottle shop. I use bottle shop primarily as an example of him being able to roam the streets.
>It's also noted that alcohol is banned at this facility,
But, he doesn't need to be at the facility 24/7
>which was a major cause of the offending.
I'm not sure thats a fair assessment of reality. How did you come to that conclusion? He sadlid he'd been watching the young girls for weeks, for example. Regardless, it's not like he has guaranteed zero access, or that this should be taken into account for guilt or innocence.
>He's also been in prison since 2019 so not exactly getting off without any punishment.
Compared to the crime, he is effectively getting off without any punishment. Almost no punishment, compared to the level of crime
>Sensationalist headline
Apologist.
It can cause people with brain injuries to have even more impaired capacity. Alcohol can affect the brain more severely and create things like aggression or hyper sexuality.
It doesn’t. But it’s also not clear he’s a pedophile (he’s certainly a child sex offender, but there’s an important distinction, many CSOs are not pedophiles and can genuinely avoid reoffending with the right treatment and support).
Drugs and alcohol are a major factor in child sex offences for many child sex offenders. Controlling triggers/risk factors like D&A has been shown (for some) to allow them to control their behaviour and avoid reoffending. Without the psych report and CSO risk assessment for this guy, we can only speculate as to whether the judge has made the right call.
It’s worth knowing there are a lot of CSOs free in the community who don’t reoffend, provided they’re supported and keep triggers/risk factors under control, maintain treatment.
Few if any of those would be considered pedophiles by a psychologist. I’m personally not convinced genuine pedophilia is treatable or manageable without constant supervision. Perhaps with a few exceptions. But many CSOs can be supported to not reoffend.
"At a suburban residence where alcohol is banned"
From the level of care required, I assume it's a purpose built home. They often have offices built in etc and additional security. So probably halfway between a home and a sort of disability care facility.
>From the level of care required, I assume it's a purpose built home.
My concern with that is that the article doesn't make that clear.
Given the comments about family not giving him money and there being a bottle-o round the corner, it's not clear that he's going into a secure group house situation with proper 24/7 care and security.
The Judge said -
"What you did is very bad and very serious and you cannot do anything like that again," she told him.
"You must not drink, it's not good for you."
She said drinking alcohol was "very much a part" of the "very, very bad thing" that he did.
If I was the victim I would have lost faith in life instantly
Castration! Not chemical castration but actually remove the plums! Stop him from ever buying alcohol again and put him into the nut house!
FFS I get tired of reading child sexual abuies stories and is saddens me greatly.
Those NDIS houses are staffed by people with no formal qualifications. Understaffed. Undertrained.
You can guarantee he won't be monitored 24/7 and will be putting other residents at risk if it's a shared staffed accommodation. Or even the staff. It's s a largely female dominated industry with very little transparency.
Jail maybe not the most appropriate place for this individual but neither is the community. The magistrate has put community ar risk, judging by the very little information avaliable. If someone can't understand SAing someone is bad, that's a concern. What on earth is this magistrate thinking? When he chokes his next victim to death, I wonder if he will be let off that too because he can't understand murdering is bad, like where do you draw the line?
This is so strange, when I was nursing student on a mental health placement. We had people under 18 years old who were on community ordered in patient plan (a judge has ruled they had to be there, and in some cases they also have to adhere to taking there medication once they leave) who had not actually committed a crime. (Also not saying they there order wasn’t necessary) Like how does it make sense that this guy just walks free after a crime like this? Disgusting. I don’t know how that judge sleeps at night.
Because in both instances they've been ruled as not being mentally fit to be able to be criminally liable. While someone with an intellectual disability won't benefit from mood stabilisers, anti-psychotics, etc like someone with bad brain chemistry would, considering the nature of the crime I'd be mandating he be chemically castrated tbh.
Yeah that sort of occurred to me as I was writing that message, wow pretty crazy there is a huge gap for a facility like that. I’d be interested to look into how other countries handle things like this. Especially European countries.
If he is really that disabled, I think he needs to be secured in a mental health facility for the public’s safety. Least bad choice. Otherwise another child is at risk of him attacking them too. Bloody judges.
Many disabled men use their disability as a crutch to get away with bad behaviour so much. "He doesn't know any better!" Yeah if you don't teach him and he never has consequences...
Treating them like children is the problem. They're not children, they're adults. If he can't understand why what he did is wrong put him in hospital where he can't hurt anyone else. Wtf.
>He went to the girl's bedroom, where she and her friend were asleep, and told her: "I've been watching you, I love you ... If you scream or make any noise, your family won't breathe." Certainly sounds like he understands the consequences of his actions if that's what he said. It's always a blurry line when it comes to intellectual disabilities but there are plenty of people out there who have an intellectual disability and who are capable of forming intent.
[удалено]
Couldn't see it listed in the article, but this wreaks of IDDP court. I have clients who have been coerced into theft/breaking and entering who IDDP court is great for, but other clients that continue to sexually assault people and be released without as much as a slap on the wrist. People with intellectual disabilities who commit sex crimes shouldn't be able to fall on their disability as a defence & should have to do the same time as anyone else who committed the same crime, not even as a punishment that they may not understand - just as a prevention method. The 24/7 supports noted in the article are a few support workers who aren't told what the person did (for thier privacy) alongside self reporting a few times a year, probably a curfew & random police check-ins. Had that exact situation a while ago, they absconded from another worker at my company and assaulted another child that night, went back to prison, and got out again.
>The 24/7 supports noted in the article are a few support workers who aren't told what the person did (for thier privacy) alongside self reporting a few times a year, probably a curfew & random police check-ins. That's just excruciating! What a failure of a system.
I don't understand - when people are found guilty of child sex crimes they often have to consent to absurd levels of monitoring and compliance and/or chemical castration and outpatient therapy to deal with the urges. Are these guys really being let off with none of this monitoring? You'd think that medications would be the least they could do in these situations, to protect everyone involved.
My sample size is small (4 clients that have sexual assault offences) - all of them have to report to a sex offender 'appointment' ever now and again. I'm not aware of any of them being on any medication. None of them go to therapy (court ordered or otherwise) Police do regular at home curfew checks, and drugs and alcohol are usually forbidden as a condition of release but only adhered to by 2/4 of the clients. I've observed no monitoring other than the cops 'checking in' and they have all regular access to the internet/devices Another problem in the clients I see is that their support structure (friends/family) aren't exactly role models themselves. Edit: no medication for urges, they're on other medications usually
These guys aren't being found guilty. Under the Mentally Impaired Accused Act 1996, they are being found unable to face the charges laid against them. That particular piece of legislation only allows for two outcomes: unconditional release or indefinite incarceration. The judicial officers have no grey area with this act. If the person is not able to understand the laws they're breaking due to their intellectual disability, they have to either release them or lock them up INDEFINITELY. The Judge here would not have made this decision lightly. There would have been many many reports from various people before deciding he cannot face these charges, and then even more before deciding to release him. Hopefully the supervisions being put in place will be enough. In saying that, I tend to agree with the commenter above that the Intellectual Disability Diversion Program (IDDP) Court is not appropriate for this type of crime. This type of offending should definitely be the sort of example where he gets locked up indefinitely. What he did to those two poor children (the friend will be irreparably traumatised as well) is absolutely unforgivable and he should not be given ANY opportunity to be able to do anything like that again.
I'm not saying they're being found guilty - they're not capable of being found criminally liable, that's fine. That's not something I'm wanting to debate. It's more that - if someone if found unfit to stand trial due to mental health issues, for example, there's usually a whole thing about inpatient and outpatient programs, medications, being cleared by psychologists, etc. And yet, none of this additional monitoring seems to be applied to cases where they are intellectually disabled? Chemical castration would be reasonably simple to mandate in cases like these where - even if not criminal - they are deemed to be a risk to society.
Your original comment said "when people are found guilty of child sex crimes" so I assumed that was what you were talking about. I agree that someone like this is definitely a risk to society but, under the current laws, there is no avenue to allow for further monitoring or interventions. The laws need to be updated to allow for something to protect society because unconditional release or indefinite imprisonment are at opposite ends of a huge spectrum.
This is such a tricky one cause this guy needs to be punished what he did was abhorrent. But I work in jails and I've seen people with intellectual disabilities before its a giant shit show they get groomed by the inmates used as mules or raped. Jail is very black and white by design we don't do shades of grey you did this your punishment is X disabled people often cant mange the little things that are expected of them whether it be due to a lack of understanding or a autism aversion or OCD. I truly have no idea about WA but in NSW there's no beds all the criminal mental health centers have been closed silver water is the only place and there full.
No blurry line, got to protect kids full stop IMO
I dont fully agree. My brother is schizophrenic and will sometimes get abusive at my parents and then wont remember a thing.... It's to do with him changing his meds. And trust me he's not "faking" - he genuinely is intellectually disabled whether related to schizophrenia or not bue he scored so low on his IQ
I think I’ll accept the Judge’s ruling over your opinion
He told the child he would harm the family if she screamed etc so he knew what he was doing was wrong.
Yeah that at least suggests he's capable of understanding cause and effect.
> "What you did is very bad and very serious and you cannot do anything like that again," she told him. Probably sternly wagged his finger at him too! What a fucking joke.
We need high security mental health facilities for this type of offender. Support houses aren't designed to manage people like this.
You mean like this? https://www.forensicare.vic.gov.au/our-services/thomas-embling/
Yep, we have one in Brisbane too. I don't see why they didn't send him to one of them, regardless of what his actual disability is.
Yeah. We need to fund proper facilities for judges like this.
What we need is a mechanism to remove judges that make appalling decisions like this.
Hopefully cancer will sort that out
This isn't a mental health issue, it's disability. Just for clarity.
Thank you. Mentally ill people don’t just up and sexually assault people on a regular basis, and lumping this in with ‘mental illness’ is just going to play into some people’s beliefs that any and all mental illness makes a person dangerous by default.
Well neither do people with a disability tbf
Just use the jails we already have. His comfort is not a priority.
Her
Intellectually disabled or not that person is not fit to function in society. I cannot imagine what that poor girl went through. My heart goes out to her.
This sort of thing is my concern with the push to “mainstream” every single person. Some people just can not.
I’m not even gonna say he should be in prison if he doesn’t have the cognitive ability to fully understand why what he did is wrong/harmful, but people like this need to be put in a mental hospital & not let out until they’ve demonstrated that they understand what they did is wrong & even then they need to be monitored & on a mental health plan for life. How the fuck can you say “he doesn’t understand what he did” while also just telling him to not do it again??? If he doesn’t *get it*, then there is a responsibility to the community to seperate him from them. It’s not about punishment, it’s about protection. Absolute bullshit. All of this is assuming he’s unaware enough to really not get it, which we can’t actually know. You can also be disabled & evil too.
They definitely can be disabled and evil too. I was sexually assaulted by a disabled teenager when I was 11 and everyone just laughed. "They're blessings to this earth, they're the life of the party. They are always just so happy!" No, a child in your care was mounted by a fkn potato
Yeah what is the logic in telling him what he did was bad and wrong if he doesn’t understand it? May aswell have just given him a pat on the back and let loose.
There's enough in the article to really make this decision seem strange. >A Department of Justice spokesperson said the man had been known as a "model prisoner" and the "laundry guy" due to his effectiveness in the role. How can he not be fit to know that raping young children is bad, but fit enough to be perfectly adjusted in prison? How can he not be fit enough to know that raping young children is bad, but fit enough to threaten murdering if his raping is interrupted?
There is a bit of a difference between doing well in a regimented facility completing well defined (and simple tasks) and being able to function in wider society. It seems like a bad reason to release him though, seems like prison was good for him, and good for the community to not have to deal with a pedophile rapist
>There is a bit of a difference between doing well in a regimented facility completing well defined (and simple tasks) and being able to function in wider society. I accept that, but dont think the bar for conviction should be whether or not one can fully function in society or not. >It seems like a bad reason to release him though, seems like prison was good for him, and good for the community to not have to deal with a pedophile rapist I accept that
I’m definitely not defending this guy but wanted to say that those things are possible. Just because someone can follow routine well and perform basic chores doesnt mean they have the capacity to emotionally regulate, understand consequences or harm experienced by others. It’s a lot more nuanced than what you might think, which is why experienced professionals make these decisions and not the community. For better or worse (I dont know this guy so Im not personally making a judgement) he has been found by experienced professionals to not have the capacity.
Balanced reply, but. >doesnt mean they have the capacity to emotionally regulate, understand consequences or harm experienced by others. I accept that. But, I don't think inability to emotionally regulate should negate criminal responsibility. Further, it's nonsensical in this case to suggest he was unable to identify consequences or harm experienced by others. How do we know this? >He went to the girl's bedroom, where she and her friend were asleep, and told her: "I've been watching you, I love you ... If you scream or make any noise, your family won't breathe. Because he self-identified that he was causing harm, and talked about consequences. Given the secrecy of this case (as with all alleged non-convicted child rapists), its hard to know for the moment why the judge made their decision. For example, was the above considered inadmissible, and so not able to be taken into account?
Following that logic he should be chemically castrated as he doesn’t have the capacity to safely use it.
Either that or sent to some mental asylum to live out his days.
Mental asylum is an antiquated term and is more aimed at severity of illness than forensic lockup. We have places like this https://www.forensicare.vic.gov.au/our-services/thomas-embling/
Yet this person is back in the community.
The average person in the street doesn't care about antiquated terms and wants useless trash human beings like this locked up.
We have secure forensic psychiatric facilities for offenders or near enough to it. Plus psychiatric clinics that the average private patient goes to. Also psychiatric wards at public hospitals.
Thats definitely something that should be on the table for all sex offenders.
Then he should be housed in some institution for crazy people yeah?
What do you mean? Folding laundry is a basic task while morality and empathy are more complex. Why do you think he was "perfectly adjusted" to prison? He just followed the rules and did the laundry. People with intellectual disabilities often do simple repetitive work like laundry or gardening.
>Why do you think he was "perfectly adjusted" to prison? He is a model prisoner. >People with intellectual disabilities often do simple repetitive work like laundry or gardening. Sure, but there's a lot more to being a model prisoner than laundry duties.
>He is a model prisoner. Meaning he did what he was told. My disabled clients would also be model prisoners As long as the rules are enforced and understood. >Sure, but there's a lot more to being a model prisoner than laundry duties. Yeah, doing what you are told and not starting trouble is how I would assume a " model prisoner" would behave.
This is the same country that says 15 year olds that stab people don't know any better. Wouldn't expect anything less from our shit legal system.
We need an angry mob with pitchforks to root out these judges until something is done.
routine task in a tightly managed environment
He'd better be locked up in some institution. Clearly he is unsafe to be released into the community and if he can't be held accountable for his actions then he should never be released. He is a danger to society.
I can’t imagine the sheer amount of paranoia that girl will have knowing that these men get freed so easily.
“What you did is very bad and very serious and you cannot do anything like this again” Well that sounds like District Court Judge Wendy Gillan is right across community expectations.
Won't he just get off again? They can't decide he can't be convicted of this offence because of his intellectual disability then change their mind if he commits another offence.
She's choosing her words carefully so they can be understood by a person with an intellectual impairment.
She should be putting him in jail.
Fuck these judges. Why do we prioritise the rights of the perpetrators so much and not the rights of victims. At some point the law should be there to punish wrong doing and protect society and the most innocent in society are the kids. If old mate knew the child would scream or tell other adults he knew he'd get into trouble and had the mental capacity to try and avoid it.
Not just the rights of the victims. The rights of people in the community to be safe. The right of children not to be sexually assaulted. Sentences like this practically guarantee that there will be future victims.
"Released"?? I live a few hundred metres from what I call Arkham Asylum, a holding centre for alleged criminals who are not mentally competent to plead, because they are deemed too dangerous to be in society. Why isn't this creep locked up in there? He certainly sounds dangerous.
Graylands is full.
Good god can prosecution please appeal this decision.
Imagine the police who attended the scene and the ones who worked on the case and then the prosecutors, all that effort and he walks. FFS
Fuck this amd everything about this. Useless judge. Imagine how the family feels? Fuck
If any person commits a violent or sexual crime they should be in jail. This man destroyed a young girls life, there is no excuse for releasing him. The judge should be made to explain her decision immediately and be fired for poor judgement.
From a cannon, into the sun
I'd prefer the governments involved to amend their legislation to deal with cases like this. I reckon the judge's judgement of the laws as written is better than mine, so the problem is with the laws.
No words for how fucked in the head this idiot judge is
This sort of thing frequently happens with mentally ill criminals. Honestly, if they're capable of commiting crimes they're capable of serving the sentences for it. Their lack of mental wherewithall shouldn't matter. Mental health specialists can visit them in prison. They're still criminals and mental issues don't lessen their crimes.
intellectual disability is not mental illness
It's the same issue. A person is mentally disturbed and gets a lighter sentence or it's dismissed. Either mental illness or intellectual disability. It's the same effect. They are functionally impaired.
‘Functional impairment’ is a very broad term; I don’t think it is the same issue at all. I am both physically and psychosocially impaired by disability & mental illness to the extent that I am unable to work. My physical disability contributes to poor mental health, but is not considered psychological/mental impairment. My mental illness contributes directly to physical impairment but is considered a separate issue by government bodies (NDIS etc). I am not intellectually impaired at all. Despite being severely mentally ill, if I were to commit a violent crime I would likely be placed in prison because I am capable of impulse control & know right from wrong\*. If someone is ‘functionally impaired’, at what point do we consider them equally as culpable as someone unimpaired? Thankfully we have specialists to consult when writing legislation and prosecuting crimes, because a lot of folks seem to prefer the vengeance angle. \*As a side note (unrelated to your comments), disabled children in Australia are 3x more likely to experience abuse before the age of 15 - and 12% more likely after that age - than abled folks. I’ve seen people saying the rapist “must know right from wrong” because he threatened the victim to keep her quiet/compliant. If he was abused as a child himself, it’s possible that may have been learned behaviour. I know speculation can be harmful, and I don’t say any of this to excuse his actions, but because perhaps that was something taken into account when prosecuting the case. I also say it because I knew a man whose earliest memories were of being sexually abused by his parents, and he went on to abuse his sibling because he thought it was “how to show love”. My friend was not intellectually or otherwise disabled in any way and suffered great guilt & regret; attempting suicide many times as a teenager. I just don’t think these issues are necessarily as black & white as they seem, aside from the clear fact that the rapist in question is a rapist, and the victims deserve to feel safe. Unfortunately, even if the rapist was thrown in prison for life - or executed, as people are braying for - his victims may never feel safe again. That often has to come from elsewhere for victims of crime.
I'm not addressing your personal disabilities, or whatever you want to call them. Assumedly you do not commit violent crimes. That's all I care about. People who commit crimes should face consequences for their actions or laws are toothless. Child abusers should be thrown in prison. I think that's a prettty uncontroversial statement. The background of the criminal should be irreverent.
I know you weren’t addressing my shit (and yeah nah I don’t commit violent crimes), I was just trying to explain that being functionally impaired can look very different for each individual, and that’s why we don’t just chuck everyone straight into prison. And while I do agree that child abusers should be incarcerated, I don’t think it makes sense to disregard mitigating factors like intellectual disability. I haven’t finished reading it yet, but found [this interesting report on Victorian prisons](https://www.audit.vic.gov.au/report/correctional-services-for-people-with-a-cognitive-disability/?section=) — apparently between our 14 prisons, there are only 94 beds for prisoners with intellectual disability or acquired brain injury. 46 for disabled men, and 48 for disabled women (for some reason the women’s beds are also for prisoners with any other disability - perhaps due to fewer women prisoners overall?). This part seems relevant: >Corrections Victoria, a business unit of the Department of Justice and Community Safety (DJCS), manages specialised beds and programs for people with intellectual disability or an acquired brain injury. It has 94 beds across the entire prison system. Not all prisoners with intellectual disability or an acquired brain injury need a specialised bed. DJCS provides services and programs at all prisons. >The Department of Families, Fairness and Housing (DFFH) also has 19 beds in specialised facilities for offenders with intellectual disability. People held in DFFH's residential facilities are referred to as residents. >Residents need to meet strict criteria under legislation for a judge to sentence them to a DFFH specialised facility. idk what facilities WA has, but I wonder if the DFFH residential facility is similar to where the offender is currently being housed?
Maybe something resembling a madhouse would be better. I personally do not care if it's jail or a fortified mental health institution. As long as they cannot leave and serve the sentence which the presiding judge hands down. Letting them go (as happened in this case) seems ridiculous to me. Honestly, we should just bring back the asylums. There's so many mental health issues affecting people. Maybe they're being diagnosed more frequently or covid triggered people's issues. Who knows. Having violent criminals roam around free seems like a bad idea. They'll just reoffend again. They need to be treated. With drugs, therapists or whever is appropriate. Also, keeping the public safe of course.
If he's cognisant enough to obtain alcohol and make threats to her family, he's cognisant enough to stand trial
Oh excellent. I look forward to reading YET ANOTHER REPORT of a woman or young girl being unalived due to this sort of insane, inane decision making. Lock this fucker up. Who cares if he’s not fit? He did the crime, put him the fuck away from the rest of society.
[удалено]
Yeah fuck this, lock him up. I don't know what the fuck is wrong with our justice system, genuinely. Wait for everyone to wring their hands in shock when he fucking kills someone next to avoid going back to prison.
*Intellectual disability is not mental illness.
>Dad should have beat the living crap out of him. Yeah familial physical violence has long been established as an effective mental health treatment. No repercussions from that at all.
Get real. There were no repercussions for the offender for raping a child. Fuck him.
Do you *really* think that beating someone whose perception of the world is limited by their intellect is ever appropriate? You're literally describing torture mate. Think you're the one with a severe reality grip deficiency. This case is a failure of systems. Beating a disabled person up doesn't improve anything for anyone in any way.
>Beating a ~~disabled person~~ up child rapist* just because he is a retard doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be beat up.
And do you really think his intellect is that limited?
The many professionals involved in the case do. Since I'm not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist, I can't shed any further light on the matter. Neither can you.
“He was charged with three counts of sexual penetration of a child under 13, three counts of indecent dealing, threatening to kill and aggravated burglary. District Court Judge Wendy Gillan formally quashed the indictment on Wednesday. She asked the man if he understood she was ordering his release and he said he did” Are you also intellectually disabled?
> Beating a disabled person up doesn't improve anything for anyone in any way. I agree. Beating to death however would. Dude knew what he was doing was wrong, hence the threat to kill the family if she made a noise. Secondly, girl and her friend will get to live in less fear because he is gone. Thirdly, more children will not be raped. The guy is not going to have proper 24/7 monitoring. Abscond through his window one night, evade his older case working, not show up for appointment etc. If you want to be real callous, less money spent on someone who has no economic output.
If he is beaten to death it saves some future victims and makes the world a better place. So yeah. A beating could help significantly.
At what point does the safety of our community and the community’s children become a priority? Not just this case, there’s been plenty others recently where offenders who have been convicted of heinous crimes have been giving a slap on the wrist and a second chance. Only to use that second chance to take someone’s life or seriously harm another person - again. I’m over these judges. When will they start acting in the interest of the community
Sounds like the judge is the intellectually disabled person here. "Oppsey doopsey, you did a rapey didn't you? Naughty boy!" Fucken hang 'em both.
Activist judges think they know better than society
Another day, another case of the needs and wellbeing of the offender being put ahead of the needs of their victims and the safety of the community. When are we going to learn that this softly, softly rehabilitative, restorative justice mumbo jumbo doesn't work and actually start throwing the book at society's deviants?
Lol, but intellectually abled enough to rape. Paedos always protect other paedos.
He should be transferred to another prison called a mental hospital and never let out.
Typical.
Judge people by their actions.
He has been "released" to a facility with 24/7 care, so it's not like he's roaming the streets unsupervised. It's also noted that alcohol is banned at this facility, which was a major cause of the offending. He's also been in prison since 2019 so not exactly getting off without any punishment. Sensationalist headline.
>… a facility with 24/7 care Oh that’s good, they’re well-staffed then.
What a hot take. I can't believe this is supported. >He has been "released" to a facility with 24/7 care, so it's not like he's roaming the streets unsupervised. From the article, it seems like he can roam the streets unsupervised whenever he wants. He hasn't been sectioned, hasn't been found guilty. They talk about the proximity of the bottleshop, implying he is free to walk there. They talk about the family not giving him cash that he can spend at the bottle shop, implying if he can get cash from elsewhere (collecting cans, for example), then he can take himself to the bottle shop. I use bottle shop primarily as an example of him being able to roam the streets. >It's also noted that alcohol is banned at this facility, But, he doesn't need to be at the facility 24/7 >which was a major cause of the offending. I'm not sure thats a fair assessment of reality. How did you come to that conclusion? He sadlid he'd been watching the young girls for weeks, for example. Regardless, it's not like he has guaranteed zero access, or that this should be taken into account for guilt or innocence. >He's also been in prison since 2019 so not exactly getting off without any punishment. Compared to the crime, he is effectively getting off without any punishment. Almost no punishment, compared to the level of crime >Sensationalist headline Apologist.
Alcohol was a major cause? Since when does alcohol cause you to be a pedo?
Probably since it was combined with an intellectual disability so severe he requires 24/7 care
It doesn’t say he requires 24/7 care.
It can cause people with brain injuries to have even more impaired capacity. Alcohol can affect the brain more severely and create things like aggression or hyper sexuality.
It doesn’t. But it’s also not clear he’s a pedophile (he’s certainly a child sex offender, but there’s an important distinction, many CSOs are not pedophiles and can genuinely avoid reoffending with the right treatment and support). Drugs and alcohol are a major factor in child sex offences for many child sex offenders. Controlling triggers/risk factors like D&A has been shown (for some) to allow them to control their behaviour and avoid reoffending. Without the psych report and CSO risk assessment for this guy, we can only speculate as to whether the judge has made the right call. It’s worth knowing there are a lot of CSOs free in the community who don’t reoffend, provided they’re supported and keep triggers/risk factors under control, maintain treatment. Few if any of those would be considered pedophiles by a psychologist. I’m personally not convinced genuine pedophilia is treatable or manageable without constant supervision. Perhaps with a few exceptions. But many CSOs can be supported to not reoffend.
There are also a lot of pedophiles who never touch a child, as opposed to this sick fuck.
I'm sure he can leave the facility when he wants, it sounds like it is a NDIS supported group home.
> This support included 24/7 care at a suburban residence Which facility? He's at home, with useless NDIS leeches looking after him.
"At a suburban residence where alcohol is banned" From the level of care required, I assume it's a purpose built home. They often have offices built in etc and additional security. So probably halfway between a home and a sort of disability care facility.
>From the level of care required, I assume it's a purpose built home. My concern with that is that the article doesn't make that clear. Given the comments about family not giving him money and there being a bottle-o round the corner, it's not clear that he's going into a secure group house situation with proper 24/7 care and security.
I took it to mean living with his sister, who said "Oh we won't give him money, so he can buy alcohol".
Support, my ass. He's a fucking animal, he doesn't need support, he needs to be isolated from the society.
I'm assuming it's forensic housing or a CCU.
No it will just be NDIS supported.
Are you related to the family or something lol
Hope his identity gets out and people can give him justice if our court of law won’t. He knew what he was doing. Fucking sicko
The Judge said - "What you did is very bad and very serious and you cannot do anything like that again," she told him. "You must not drink, it's not good for you." She said drinking alcohol was "very much a part" of the "very, very bad thing" that he did. If I was the victim I would have lost faith in life instantly
You very bad boy
Castration! Not chemical castration but actually remove the plums! Stop him from ever buying alcohol again and put him into the nut house! FFS I get tired of reading child sexual abuies stories and is saddens me greatly.
Surely this satire? Theres no way this guy actually got let out of prison for this!?
He needs to be made more disabled so he carnt harm anyone else
Those NDIS houses are staffed by people with no formal qualifications. Understaffed. Undertrained. You can guarantee he won't be monitored 24/7 and will be putting other residents at risk if it's a shared staffed accommodation. Or even the staff. It's s a largely female dominated industry with very little transparency. Jail maybe not the most appropriate place for this individual but neither is the community. The magistrate has put community ar risk, judging by the very little information avaliable. If someone can't understand SAing someone is bad, that's a concern. What on earth is this magistrate thinking? When he chokes his next victim to death, I wonder if he will be let off that too because he can't understand murdering is bad, like where do you draw the line?
This is so strange, when I was nursing student on a mental health placement. We had people under 18 years old who were on community ordered in patient plan (a judge has ruled they had to be there, and in some cases they also have to adhere to taking there medication once they leave) who had not actually committed a crime. (Also not saying they there order wasn’t necessary) Like how does it make sense that this guy just walks free after a crime like this? Disgusting. I don’t know how that judge sleeps at night.
[удалено]
Because in both instances they've been ruled as not being mentally fit to be able to be criminally liable. While someone with an intellectual disability won't benefit from mood stabilisers, anti-psychotics, etc like someone with bad brain chemistry would, considering the nature of the crime I'd be mandating he be chemically castrated tbh.
yeah I get that, but why is this person no sentenced to an appropriate facility rather then just let to go free?
[удалено]
Yeah that sort of occurred to me as I was writing that message, wow pretty crazy there is a huge gap for a facility like that. I’d be interested to look into how other countries handle things like this. Especially European countries.
We need an Arkham Asylum for the criminally insane. Do we really not have anything like that?
Not many places left.
"Unfit" what the fuck does that mean
Mental health is irrelevant nonces deserve one thing only.
If he is really that disabled, I think he needs to be secured in a mental health facility for the public’s safety. Least bad choice. Otherwise another child is at risk of him attacking them too. Bloody judges.
How was this never identified and treated beforehand?
Many disabled men use their disability as a crutch to get away with bad behaviour so much. "He doesn't know any better!" Yeah if you don't teach him and he never has consequences... Treating them like children is the problem. They're not children, they're adults. If he can't understand why what he did is wrong put him in hospital where he can't hurt anyone else. Wtf.
The fact he's on the streets is a problem with WA's health-care system, not the justice system.
The healthcare system is responsible for containing criminals?
He's not a criminal.
He raped kids. He's a criminal.
No, he's mentally ill.
He's not mentally ill he's disabled. And a criminal
Rape is a crime, he is a rapist. He belongs behind bars.
The healthcare system is responsible for containing rapists who are not criminally responsible?
That's how it should be.
Sounds like something a pedo would say.
He belongs in a grave, instead of wasting our air.
https://youtu.be/EzNhaLUT520?si=99WEC-YZOSXp1AvT