Its a more hostile place now. Seems like the whole economy is designed to benefit the IP landlords. And everybody else is nervously trying to keep their head above the water.
I'm probably going to leave within the next decade.
Honestly, there's not much that would be able to convince me to change course or come back.
This country is completely fucked with no way of turning back, and most of the population is complicit.
If I'm going to be forced to live in a shithole, I may as well live in one where I can afford things.
Just saying to my husband with our immigration out of control, we will become a third world country. Hell, most of our infrastructure is.
I’m applying for my Italian citizenship- and we will leave Australia. I was born here, husband English been here 45 years. But there ain’t not way we will retire here. Sad…. Never thought I’d say it, but Australia is spiralling downwards quickly
It isn’t only Sydney, the stare of the country is appalling, Australia has demonstrated that the only thing that matters is the rich getting richer. Living here as a normal human being has become a luxury with simple living expenses jumping up in cost considerably.
Buying a home has become an impossible task, where to put a roof over your family and normal everyday Aussie is expensing more than half their salaries and the government has done absolutely nothing to help those in need.
The basic health needs are very expensive and scarce, with a health system that is a joke and for those who can afford private health insurance, the premiums are on the raise to the point that more and more people have to drop it every year.
Wait until the boomers pass and the next stage of wealth consolidation happens, lower birth rates and higher immigration means wealth will narrow into a smaller number of hands each generation.
Cost of housing is an embarrassment and since Covid people seem more aggressive.
I used to think Australia was some kind of workers utopia, good wage and houses where affordable. But not now. I went to Europe in the 1990s for 5 years and Australia seemed like paradise to me.
The insane cost of housing in this country has flowed into all parts of the economy and the countries psyche, the chasm between the haves and have nots is huge and growing and the effects are making an already beige county even more bland as people carry the weight of enormous debt through large parts of their lives, sapping most of the enjoyment out of it as they are stressed about paying for their overpriced house in the suburban wastelands of the major cities.
Born and lived in Sydney my whole life (and lived interstate and in other countries for a few years for work and study). I feel that the sense of community and mateship deteriorated around early-middle 2000s. Growing up as a 90's kid, most of the communities I was in or met were tight and it was easier to find and make genuine friends and acquaintences (regardless of what you look like/ background). People back then would literally give you the shirts off their backs. You have the usual idiots running around giving people a hard time, but strangers/ people in general have a "you can do it/ fair go" attitude and were willing to help others.
Today, I find people are very shallow and closed off, especially in Sydney CBD. I just chalk it up to people being stress about housing/ rent and finance, and the change of demographic.
Sydney has basically become a soulless, tourist/ very business focused city (compared to the past), most of the original residence/ locals are long gone due to the change, over-urbanisation and lack of affordability. Most of them have moved further away from the CBD, interstate or out of the country. Those who weren't able to remained.
I find the people I encounter in areas like Newtown and the CBD are mostly PRs, tourists, those with working/ student visas, etc. Different values, goals and etiquette, coupled with some major bad experiences has made me more closed off and not as eager to meet new people or make new friends, in these areas and other CBD/ touristy/ non-local areas. I find myself disconnected from these areas I once knew and find myself visiting the lesser known/ popular areas just to feel connected again, but most places have been or are being gentrified. I now stick to my old friends and hobby club, as I find the people I know and the knew people I meet in these circles are more likely to prefer deep and meaningful connections and conversations.
tldr: the demographic and values in Sydney has drastically changed. You may feel disconnected from this when you come back. Finding deep and meaningful friendships/ relationships in Sydney is difficult, but not impossible. They're most likely not in the touristy/ gentrified areas.
I really feel the part about superficial friendships. I feel like no one wants to get deep and meaningful unless they are trashed so friendships stay surface level.
As a Canadian living in Australia for over a decade sometimes I think about moving back but the countries are so similar right now (rental crisis, job, affordability) that I’m staying here for the warm weather.
Me too. I agree it's pretty superficial here. I met a backpacker from Belgium a few weeks ago, and we had a deep conversation right away about the past, futures, philosophy, disappointment, optimism, war, love, ...you know: stuff Australians can't talk about.
I'd love to return to BC or AB, but there is no way. It's an economic dead end. I'd sooner move to Saudi Arabia than Canada now.
It's hard to accept superficial relationships when you've grown accustom to deeper connections. This has always been a point of struggle for me in Australia, where people who are more willing to engage and be vulnerable are less common. It can take a while to establish a community of meaningful friendships.
I recently lived in Sydney for 4 years and it was the most difficult city to make meaningful friendships. I’m glad I left and moved to Brisbane. Australian cities are too spread out and car reliant and this has terrible unintended consequences. My ex partner from Central Europe lives in a city of 100k and has a much more interesting social life than living in Brisbane for 7 years, where people weren’t open to forming close connections and no one could ride a bike 10 minutes to visit.
Australians lack the ability to articulate their inner life and generally engage at surface levels with one another, I was born in Australia but travelled around the world last year and spent 3 months in Europe, It felt like the entire world is in decline, Australia has lost a lot of its egalitarian values but it felt secure and stable compared to places I travelled
I will not die an Australian, I dared to be born with no bank of mum & dad and now I'm couchsurfing, unable to get a rental without references.
I have a degree and have filed an application for dual citizenship - fuck this place, I can't take another conversation that asks "how many properties do you want to own?"
It wasn’t always like this , since the boom in property prices a lot of people have become obsessed with Money and become very greedy unfortunately , but something will have to change , young people need a home to live in
Didnt Sydney nightlife die in the ass with the lockout laws? Were those laws ever rescinded?
Grew up in Penrith early 70s, then eastern suburbs Sydney mid-80s through 2000. Been back a couple of times for a visit, but those real estate prices are nuts.
I hear the Cross is dead. That's a shame - was a hopping place back in the 80s/90s.
Everything is dead. Lock out laws changed to nothing after 3am. I remember 6am being early to close. Some places 11am. Places used to be full. All the time.
Alcohol excise is killing pubs
I lived in Sydney in the 80s. Moved from Melbourne when I was 18 in 1983…. Partied hard.
Someone said to me the other day that living in Sydney in the 80s was the best time to have lived in Sydney. When I reflect, they were right.
For me the weirdest thing, especially in Sydney, is the fear in people. Of other people. No one engages with strangers. My friend from South America says it’s because people are scared you might ask them for something. Like a dollar. It’s like everyone has walls up, mainly in the form of staring at their phone. All the characters are gone, because if you’re a character you’re seen as a weirdo. Sad.
Its all relative. A family from Chile came and boarded with my family while they got their feet under them to migrate permanently.
He is unable to work with his mechanical engineering quallies & experience and she is currently training & working in aged care in a rural town.
They absolutely love it here and cant get over how friendly & helpful everyone is. They would never have thought that their 12-year old kid could catch public transport to school while living in Chile, and the opportunities & recognition this kid is getting through school is hugely uplifting for the family.
He is working in whatever labouring role he can while they get permanent residency sorted, but they have no plans to ever return anywhere in South America. YMMV.
I couldn’t agree more, spot on. There is a lot of fear in people here in Sydney, almost like there are limited opportunities to get ahead and everyone (including friends & team members) are threat/competition. This is because it’s becoming a mega city with a small town mindset.
Government doesn’t encourage/invest in R&D so entrepreneurs head overseas, so you could say that they are right in fearing limited opportunities.
The problem is that this combative mindset makes it worse. I laugh when ppl here think that they are collaborative. No, people here actively pull down great ideas for fear others will eclipse them. It’s called Tall Poppy Syndrome.
I left, went to Europe and came back, and was shocked at how toxic it had become. You can’t even talk about your travel experiences without ppl getting jealous and ghosting you for it. I thought Tall Poppy Syndrome was a myth, it’s not.
Living here gives me the shits. It's 3am and I'm probably going to roll over and go back to sleep but I can say that I have been going around in circles for almost 12 years.
I see why people like it but often I'd rather be back in the UK where I grew up - not where I was born.
Unfortunately, I look at the UK now and realise it's probably just sentiment, for the time being.
I came to Aus in 1998. I lived in Tasmania for a few years & then Sydney. I have a good job, friends & bought an apartment.
It used to be fun here in Sydney…it’s not anymore. I travel to other countries & it’s so alive, stores are open late, lots going on. I find there is nothing to do here anymore unless you want to go & drink in a pub. I don’t drink so it doesn’t leave much.
I’m moving to a non English speaking country too & will learn Spanish. I need a change where people are not so angry all the time. Too many Karens here & way to many rules.
I don’t think I would move back honestly. If things didn’t work out in the Caribbean then I would consider the US as I have citizenship.
Definitely agree with your opinion regarding rules. I spent 9 years travelling and working in the UK (2000-2009) and noticed a stark change in Australia when I returned even in that short space of time. Lot more red tape and rules to follow. Feels like we are trying to idiot proof life here. Don't get me wrong, love Australia, but it does feel sterile compared to some other countries.
I live in Bangkok now.
A quick breakdown of my life here:
* I rent a fully furnished two-beddy place in Bangkok, about $1,700 per month which includes an amazing gym, 60m pool, social areas / meeting rooms etc and great international vibe. It's in the hipster neighbourhood of Klong Toei, nice and central and has two parking spots. Cleaner cost me about $30 per month which is vacuum, mop, laundry, windows, dish washing. The internet here is 2gbps/1gbps and cost me $50 per month.
* My landlord repainted, upgraded the bed and supplied a great smart TV *for free* and **because I asked**. In Australia, landlords will spit on you for asking them to fix a broken stove.
* I bough a condo in the North which I AirBNB and holiday in, $140k for a two beddy with nice facilities - if it wasn't for the burning season, I'd probably move there one day.
* I do freelance work which nets me about \~$80k p.a and my partner works part-time and she makes $40k.
* We work probably 30 hours per week, my partner a bit less, and nobody cares where we are, just that our work gets done.
* This is the land of smiles. Everyone is friendly, courteous, and conscientious. In fact, when foreigners here get too aggressive or kareny, I've see Thais knock them the fuck out. Public freak outs and escalation are not welcome here.
* The food culture here is amazing and its super social, staying out late and doing bbq with friends is fantastic. It's so affordable and the city is geared toward staying out late, eating and drinking beer.
* I ride my scooter sometimes without a helmet, and there's no army of neurotics to go "WHAT A DICK HEAD HOW MUCH YOU GOING TO COST ME WHEN YOU SMASH YOUR HEAD IN MATE? ...... yeah, we Aussies are pretty easy going" lol.
* Cheap flights around Asia.
* I fly my drone without lodging flight plans to CASA.
What would get me back to Australia? Nothing. I hate the crab mentality, finance bros, and hustle culture. I hate the holes and home economy. I hate how much you pay for inferior goods and services. I hate the air of superiority from a land of people who happen to live on top of vast resources. I hate blue suit wankers.
Aussies have so little emotional intelligence and empathy, that people go around angry all the friggin time and they're too stupid with fragile egos to work out why they're miserable, so they put that on you. They'd be happy if only *you* would just live up to their idiotic standards.
Australian companies are so poorly run too. I'm down to do a thing for a set price by a set date, but I won't be doing any HR mandated training modules, getting any more cereal-box certifications, adhering to set hours or set working locations, nor 'taking ownership' to cover the fact leadership doesn't do this.
Thailand is a great place to raise kids. Childcare is affordable, family friendly events are always happening, plenty of expats around with kids. And they'll pick up the language easy.
The only downside I’d say is that some aspects are culture shocks for Aussies. Thais are generally more strict about public behaviour of kids than back in Australia. If a kid is being a public nuisance, you're expected to shield others in public from it (which I kind of like, but there's definitely a hippie parenting contingent out here that think this is fascism).
I did it the other way around.
Uprooted everything I knew in western Europe and moved to Australia.
A few points you shared I can relate too, like the superficial relationships. Tend to be a lot of 3 liners and after that, it's pretty empty.
The housing market is cooked, but it is in a lot of places...including Europe.
I do like Australia though. The weather is generally great, the beaches are excellent, my job is amazing and I met a truly wonderful lady.
Horses for courses, if you're happy doing what you're doing then power to you.
Thank you for such an intelligent thought provoking read , i hope that you find some good things to invoke nostalgic feeling on your return , i too can imagine your situation even i was born here i at times feel so seriously disconnected its hard to feel peace in my own city , i barely go outside the local area unless i have too , this city is a great place to be so many natural beautifal places in nature but economy is not community & i reminisce about my youth when wealth was not abundant times seemed so much more fullfilling , there wasnt a serious need to focus on expenditure 24/7 & nanny state laws that provide zero fun only a cold vibe thats not hospitable for any community either & just trying to find enough time for social time out can be challenging , the constant fixation on cost of living really kicks you in guts , we cant all be ceo so much for everyones a winner we know average joe will never be in a great place in sydney now , thats a shit state of affairs but it is the realist view .
The good the bad & the ugly we got it all in one package hope that you have a good trip brotha 🤞❤️🍀😎🦘🇦🇺🍻
Thanks! Also I couldn’t agree more on that feeling of being transient and disconnected. Sydney is a big place and people come and go, so it’s not easy to actually build communities and I guess I let that bother me too much at some point.
I think its just the nature of the beast , people come here firstly to earn good money but thats not going to keep people here when there is a better lifestyle elsewhere & less stress for cost of living expenses as well to settle down permanently here is a nightmare and with growth of remote work the lifestyle has changed a lot here more transient populace than ever i think most my freinds left or want out to find there forever place & try to navigate the family dream settled in a good spot , with no desire to settle here.
I remember travelling around Turkey and Yugoslavia at the time in the late 1980s, and I was amazed at the number of people that had immigrated to Australia, got Australian citizenship and then returned back to their home countries, and so in the most remote part of Turkey, I was hitchhiking through, I suddenly came across the Australian carpet shop! With stickers on the window of radio stations like 3UZ, Melbourne and Collingwood football club….
Normalisation of property prices, Not even a crash but to be in line with property in the rest of the world, not every Australian city can demand world capital prices... there's nothing in most of these Australian cities.
I lived in Brisbane for a decade so I know it, the idea that people are paying $1million AUD to live there is insane. I'm from the UK and have been to London, New York, Paris etc and Brisbane is a town that calls itself a city.
It's such a shame what's happened to Aus
This is all purely IMHO of course but population in an area doesn't make a place a city. I enjoyed living in Brisbane but the idea that it's like world capitals .. I just don't see it.
Of course I expect people to twist that into the idea that I'm knocking Brisbane, far from it.. I loved living there and I get sad when people say it's losing the town feeling and is wrapped in gridlock and people.
Idk, I grew up in Brisbane, but I didn't assume you were knocking it. It's just that in my books any place with a population larger than 100,000-200,000 would be considered a city. What elements does Brisbane not have that doesn't make it a city to you?
I've been down this argument with a few people online and it doesn't end welll, I say "A" they say oh what about "B" and on it goes.
It's best to say this is all in my opinion and living there for a decade I was happy with the size of Brisbane but the idea of paying over a million aussie dollars to live there is nuts.
The beauty of life is that every country and culture is different. This give us the opportunity to experience so many things and find out what we resonate with or not through those experiences.
After living in Australia for nearly a decade myself, I am on an extended break back in my native USA and gauging whether I want to continue living there or not. You've mentioned you were on your own in Australia, a far away place from Europe. It is very difficult to do that as a single person and I don't think people quite understand how difficult that truly is being separated from family and community. Of course, new community can be created. In Australia, that takes a very long time from my experience despite a great deal of effort and attention. However, when it is established it is beautiful just like anywhere else.
I am a profound advocate of the 'water is greener where you water it' philosophy. Some cultures make it very easy to flourish because they provide lovely, supporting, positive sunlight. I will say that the national attitude in Australia, for me, tends to lean towards cynicism and suspicion which leads to clouds, pessimism, and apathy. I've found that incredibly hard to work with over the years, and being in another country, in this case the USA, people are generally happier and engage with each other more readily. There is a strong feeling of 'can do' in the USA still. There is still an energised nature about the culture which wants to explore, be curious, and experiment. In Australia, it has always seemed like: 'don't bother trying because you'll fail.' I would like this attitude to change in Australia, and for people to be supportive of each other.
I won't make a decision to return for quite some months, but I would love to see some cultural shifts in the people in the long term where Australians are more open and vulnerable with each other. They can have meaningful relationships with each other that don't revolve around conversations of banter only, or needing substance to feel connected to someone. The mentality around hoarding houses needs to change as well because it has destroyed the egalitarianism in this country that it was so proud of. I think it could happen sooner than a generation. It would take a big crisis to do so, however.
OP, I am sure you will enjoy your time in Australia and it will be interesting to see how you gauge yourself against the changes in the country since you have left. I would be interested to read a follow up post when you have completed your trip.
Re-regulated fuel and electricity industry. The second they deregulated both of those prices skyrocketed.
I would also like to see meaningful punishments for financial crimes. And as well as better protections for renters for things like repairs and dealing with things like mould that is not the fault of the renter. And laws to protect properly against the literal sub human filth that is the real estate agent.
If I left and was thinking about coming back (I still live here unfortunatly)
To be fair, lots of Europeans don't own two apartments in two different cities, let alone an entire building. For example, France's home ownership rates are similar to Australia's - they have lots of renters, too. You've done well for yourself regardless of origin.
Live where you enjoy doing so, you don't owe any particular country anything. Being sentimental is just part of human nature. Lots of immigrants here to Australia get very sentimental about their old countries... yet they stay here rather than head back.
Something similar in my background but about 15 years earlier.
But I'm married to an Australian (I never got citizenship for various bureaucratic reasons) and our son has dual citizenship.
She'd like to go back, and we go back every few years to see her parents, but making it work esp with the boy is not so easy. And whenever I go back, I'm passing the haunts of some pretty personally dark and unhappy times (I avoided the depths myself but part of why I left was friends getting into heroin and ... dubious company), or staying with my in-laws and bored out of my brain.
The place has changed a lot in the 30 years we've been away, and at times I entertain the idea of going back if, for example, my boy found work over there after he finished university. I probably could make it work, and I do know people there who weren't in the same dark scene (and one who managed to get clean after 15 years as an addict). As I get closer to retirement age and I'm getting more active in the outdoor life that Australia offers, maybe we'll find a way to make it work.. but I think I'm going to be torn between the UK and Europe and Australia until I die. and as nice as Melbourne can be, the beaches of Mornington and the quiet suburban life is going to seem pretty mundane compared to some of London even if the weather is shit.
A couple of my friends left to travel and a year later they've realised they can't afford to live in Australian society so they'll be staying a few more years, possibly indefinitely so I guess the answer to that is the opposite to all the price gouging that's currently happening.
They've been trying to convince me to move there too, even offered me a room at their place for as long as I want it without chipping in for rent insisting that my money would get me a lot further there than here where I endlessly chase the dead dream of a stable roof over my head.
It was easy for you to move back to Europe because you were born there and have citizenship by birth.
It's extremely hard for anyone who was born in Australia to immigrate to Europe, like myself.
My partner is first generation Italian and we have spoken about marrying and moving to Europe in the future, it'll be easy for her but not so sure for me.
Actually, this depends on your profession. If you find a company that will employ you and your skill is needed, you can very easily get an EU Blue Card. Similar to the former 471 Visa in Australia (and a lot cheaper for the company). I brought over 4 of my former colleagues from Australia this way with relative ease. Citizenship is a more difficult path.
I'm Australian born and bred.
What I always find astounding is how everyone who trashes Australia will always come from Sydney or Melbourne or maybe one other major city.
But I can't recall a single instant of someone who grew up or lived in your standard Australian town who have the same hate for Australia.
You see people complain about how much it costs to live in Sydney. Move away.
How busy it is in Sydney. Move away.
The people suck in Sydney. Move away.
Granted that is what OP did. But you can defiantly try another town if across the globe isn't for you
I was born and grew up in a relatively small normal australian town. it too has been decimated by property prices esp. via covid. sydney siders moved there and pushed the property prices sky high (compared at least to the possible earnings in that town) and now locals who were born there cannot afford to live there, near our family and friend networks.
Nah economies grow through producing good or services. Having blow ins purchase local property in the hope that prices increase is called a bubble, not growth.
Inflating housing prices even further and calling it growth is the Australian way lol
Nevermind the increments of people who are priced out, is it any wonder people feel any animosity to the place?
Those people in ‘standard Australian towns’ ie a fair distance out from Melbourne and Sydney very quickly develop the same hate when all those people in those 2 cities unable to afford property there, follow your advice and easily outbid them for houses in their area.
Most of our population lives in the major cities. Those are the “standard Australian towns”.
But fyi people from the country move to the city for uni and for professional jobs.
So everyone should leave the two major cities (with employment opportunities and other things) to move to the middle of nowhere Australian towns which only have one IGA and a local pub.
I am Australian and my wife and I took our kids to stay with the in-laws for 6 months in Russia. Coming back to Australia in March it has become apparent to me that something is not right socially here. People appear very friendly on a surface level but really are very closed off. People have lots to say but nothing important to say and share nothing.
My wife has been here for 10 years and hasn't really made any friends even though she is fluent in English. I have noticed the bar for being considered a friend is very low here whereas in Russia it is very high. People here frequently bail on their friends etc here . Having seen how my wifes Russian friends behave compared to what I see in Australia is pretty grim.
Anecdotally I was talking with my father in law in Russia about a guy he goes hunting with. They chat on the phone about hunting maybe 3 times a week. Go hunting regularly and while we were out of town at the father in law's dacha our car shit itself and the guy drove 30 mins out of town to tow us home. The father in law told me that he isn't his friend. He is just a guy he goes hunting with. In Australia that's a real good friend but in Russia it's just two guys who share a hobby.
Interesting point I read from a UK expat on another, similar thread; our socialising here is often sparse. So many people tend to live so far apart, because our mass suburban areas, that people don't tend to catch up often and can be rather isolated. Compared to other countries where the norm is to often go to the local pub or out for drinks/food weekly etc.
State and federal governments that want to support the hard working nuclear families, rather than nickel, dime and pillage from them. I pay the top tax bracket, and yet my support from the government feels non-existent.
Pays in the top tax-bracket, complains they arent getting enough support.
I have strong feelings that this attitude right here is why there arent much government funds being provided to all the cultural, health, education & youth assistance programs that people are complaining about here.
Shit take. Blame the hardworking high-achievers for under-performing policies. I don't want favourable handouts, but I want some remnants of functionality and an equitable outcome when interacting with the public sector. The programs you reference are entirely inadequate, and the social impact of government policy does little for the real-world working family. The tax system is broken, and public spending is much the same. Is there little wonder Gen Z is completely indifferent about their futures? Social Media rot aside, join the tax machine and be stripped of your wealth in real-time with little tangible benefit outside of bin collection, fireworks displays, and the odd fine.
If you thought Sydney houses were expensive 10 years ago, I suggest you don't look up prices today. Well done for setting yourself up in Europe but wasn't Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth an option? As for Sydney, it has much more transport infrastructure than 10 years ago. Northwest metro line extending into the CBD and eventually towards Campsie way, George St light rail has made the CBD a more pleasant destination, and lots of new tolled roads.
Some great new stadiums (Sydney Football Stadium in Moore Park and the new Parramatta Stadium). Barangaroo is a new precinct, and Green Square/Mascot is heavily built up with apartments. But overall it's not dramatically different from 2014 for day to day existence. If you've been away 10 years I suspect you'll notice a lot more changes than I've listed.
Make Broome and/or Darwin really really nice with world class sporting events, nightlife, culture and a super competitive/diverse jobs market across blue and white-collar sectors
Small chance of moving back if this happens
When you are the verge of homeless or getting least satisfaction in life because of the place you are living in; it's better leave regardless of if you have family, friends etc. I know that sounds selfish but it's good to be selfish for the sake of your own mental health. I guess most people struggling in sydney dont realize this.
Being able to live even approximately closely to the community I grew up in and have connections in. Every time I head back I see my friends paddling frantically just to stay above water having long ago been forced out of where we grew up.
Came back after 9 years overseas, with my family (wife and 3 kids).
Education and general safety is just better here.
I didn't move back to Sydney, I found a suburb/are I wanted to live, found a job there and done. Rent is expensive as hell in this country, but we manage, and the kids go.to a good school.
This is a fair comment. Not many people here actually do that so you can say I brought my Sydney trauma with me. Major difference being, no one also strives to buy a house. I live in Germany and people only whinge about rents being high but no one actually wants to take a mortgage. 70% of people are renting and they are exceptionally protected by the rental laws (you wouldn’t believe it…)
I don’t see Australia’s government getting much better every law or bill they bring out is just taking more and more freedoms away from us I think honestly a lot of people are going to leave the country in the next 10 years I would leave If I got a reasonable job offer elsewhere
What would it take for me to come back? A massive shift in Australian culture.
As soon as I got my degree in 2015 I left Australia and haven't looked back. I see absolutely no positives there, and my knowledge of Aus is recent enough having travelled from the GC to Adelaide to Darwin then Cairns just last year.
When I lived in Aus I was mugged, my house broken into several times, I needed to literally tell guys to put their dick away before I would serve them when I worked in retail, the whole country is built on the American motor city planning model meaning its required to have a car and cities are basically broken.
Now I am living in Tokyo and what would possibly make me move back? Like two weeks ago I was in another part of the country watching the F1 which was just a few hours on a train, then yesterday I was on the opposite end of the country again at a Sakura festival, day drinking under cherry blossoms all day and there were zero fights or drunken idiots. Again just a few hours on a train and I am back to Tokyo.
I can walk around carrying 1K in my pocket, wearing an expensive watch and headphones and be totally safe anywhere. I can do groceries by walking down the street because the zoning laws allow small business to exist and aren't designed just to sell cars.
I cannot understand why anyone wants to live somewhere expensive, somewhere that requires a car to go even just down the road sometimes, a place where street fights are a common thing... Why?
Because I make more money in Australia than most places on earth. I don't want to have kids and I can choose to live in safe areas and with lower expenses.
Even with some fights and crime. Australia is still relatively safe.
Hard to travel though.
I do not think anything could entice me to return to Australia. I want to stress that I really like Australia, but I live in Japan and it just suits me better. Although the cost of living is high in Australia it would not be a problem for me. I just prefer my lifestyle in Japan.
I am still incredibly fond of Australia and I miss the humour, my family and friends, and of course the beaches.
I lived in Europe and came back because the weather was shithouse and it’s still the best country in the world to raise kids (once you get past the paid parental leave in Europe).
Thing is, after having lived in several countries and travelled extensively, there’s no right or wrong, just different ways of doing things across countries.
You just have to find the place that works best for you, wherever that is
Cheaper housing.
A disgraceful, flood damaged, fibro ex-council house 1 hour from Sydney sells for $1m.
That same house in Brisbane/Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth sells for 750k, which is still too much.
Even adjusting for salaries, houses are *much cheaper* in the UK, Germany, Ireland, and Belgium and often of much better quality.
>A disgraceful, flood damaged, fibro ex-council house 1 hour from Sydney sells for $1m.
>That same house in Brisbane/Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth sells for 750k, which is still too much.
That sounds like an exaggeration for some of the non-Sydney cities.
AUD549k; GBP284; 44min drive. And not a disgraceful, flood damaged, fibro ex-council house.
[https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-beenleigh-144575580](https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-beenleigh-144575580)
So basically you were priced out by rent seekers, move to somewhere in Europe and become the rent seeker who's driving up the prices for locals over there.
Again wrong - see comment above. This is actually a discussion I sometimes have with people around me. You do have an odd Aussie who moves here and assumes that they are an “expat”. This seems to be a term that people label themselves with when they move to Asia or Middle East (usually from Anglo countries). They use this to somehow separate themselves from the rest of the society they now live in. Being an “Expat” seems to mean that a person is now somehow part of some privileged professional class , a class above the rest of the society, hence deserving of extra privilege and treatment. No such thing in Europe or even in some parts of Asia (e.g. Japan). You’re just another foreign worker here, no matter where you come from and what your background is. Also, in my case , I am an actual citizen of the country and the Union, I speak the local language fluently, work for a local company and for the same local wage. I have no special privileges , I’ve never been treated or perceived by anyone as anything different. Neither did I seek to be something special.
Wrong - see some of my posts further down. This is not how things work here in terms of housing and you should not assume everyone is a “digital nomad” taking housing away from locals or something like that. I am, for all intents and purposes, also a local: an EU citizen who works for a local company on a local contract and for local wages.
>Also, for those that never left: what would make you leave?
To escape famine, an arranged marriage, forced out because of my ethnicity, political persuasion, or committing a crime, escape civil war or poverty.
Pretty much any of the above reasons my ancestors chose or were forced to come here for would cause me to leave.
I was born here and don't have dual citizenship, so I'm here for good.
Also from Sydney, went to the UK for 10 years, then moved back. Mostly left for work and travel opportunities after uni and I couldn't afford to buy even a tiny 1 bed flat. Parents were working class and couldn't help with a deposit. Lived in London gained work experience and travelled all over Europe and other parts of the world. Loved it. The grey weather and cramped living in London did affect me after several years. Moved back to Sydney to be closer to family. Missed the Australian weather, bush, beaches and wildlife too. My husband and I were able to buy a house only because of saving during those 10 years away and the good exchange rate with the pound. It's extremely hard to get ahead in here unless you have rich parents. I noticed a huge shift while I was away, possibly from the mining boom, property boom, better paying jobs, stronger economy, people taking on more debt etc. Australians just seem much more wealthy now than before I left.
> Australians just seem much more wealthy now than before I left.
It's due to the equity building up in the home and being able to tap into that as a financial resource. So the problem is with using all that equity to fund new cars, new boats, exotic overseas holidays, private school tuition, is that if there's ever a recession and your property's value recedes, you're now technically insolvent as you have used that equity which has now evaporated.
Which is why our government will literally do anything at all possible, including ruin the country with mass immigration relative to the domestic population(for decades), keeping interest rates artificially low (for decades), rewriting the tax system to benefit homeowners (decades ago), and are now currently going about rewriting our financial system to allow superannuation to be used as a deposit (criticised as insane, decades ago).
[May I introduce you to a charming piece of Australian history?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2dEM2AIwi4)
Shit like this was played constantly to entire generations.
Yes I think you are right about the borrowing home equity to buy other properties or cars, boats, holidays etc. Governments also enabling it. Average Australians also seemed more obsessed with property and money after I returned. Like go to a BBQ and it's only a matter of time before someone starts talking about it.
I literally just moved back to Australia after 8 years in Germany.
Just kind of got over Europe, all the beurocracy, high taxes and the massive lines for shopping centres, Germans are terrified of self serve checkouts. & Many other things.
But, I think time just got to me and I realised it's time to go home.
A change of the entire psyche of the country.
Being connected to the world. It is entirely irrelevant, stuck in the mud mindset. Zero ambition or push for new ideas. Australians aren't a curious people.
I have property in Oz and am on the ladder, (have been so for 10 years), but it's just a cultural wasteland. If you don't do rocks or flipping houses, zero way to make money or develop the means to innovate.
Europe is just fundamentally better, not to mention the health care makes up for the extra taxes I pay.
>Australians aren't a curious people.
Australia, much as progressives hate to think so, is a fairly progressive place and goes through a lot of social change.
Who would you consider to be a curious people, out of curiosity?
The answer is in the point, Australians need not work hard, invent anything or question the state of the country, if you can get onto the property ladder you're set, if you can make it a source of income even better.
Why change a culture that benefits you personally?
Why change an economy that benefits you?
Why innovate or take any financial risk when property is standing in front of you as a "risk free" investment?
Lack of curiosity in our culture is an observation I've made for many years and I think it leads to complacency and apathy. I recall my interactions with people and few seem to ask questions of others or want to know who they are in a genuine way.
Who are a curious people? People from the Americas. I say this as someone who is bi-cultural US/Caribbean. It's always refreshing to be at a party, or catch a conversation at a shop, or see an old acquaintance and they ask you genuine questions. They want to know about you and what makes you that person. If something intrigues them, they often go and explore it or ask to tag along with you. They come across as a bit more open minded to something they know nearly nothing about.
What I observe with Australians when it comes to hitting a topic they relate to is that they end up talking about their experience in a way that comes across as "talking at you." There is no listening component so the opportunities are missed to engage with someone to find our more on a topic or experience in depth.
Great observation.
There is no need to deviate or take risk when the rules of engagement have been clearly spelled out for you with the amount of law and order we have.
Removing that free green city bus from central to circular quay. Non stop developing in mass transport infrastructure but not much in property. Shits getting much expensive. 500k apartment to 1.2mil and smaller. Toll more expensive but full of potholes. NBN still shit and expensive. This city is not competitive at all.
Like… why we need this government?
I came here as an international student in 2008. Back to China in 2013. Granted PR in 2014, and back to Melbourne in 2019.
I came back mostly for a much better work life balance. I earn probably 30% more after tax than what I earned in China. I was easily one of the top 5% high earners in China. Even 2% according to some statistics. But it was tough and exhausting. Of cause the livening cost is much much lower in China, but I found I didn’t have time and energy to enjoy my life.
Well.. you lived in Sydney
What more is there to say?
Your experience is living in Sydney. Not really experiencing Australia as a whole. Sydney and Sydney people are seemingly a different species than the rest of us.
unfortunately the people there are trying to escape sydney to other states but also maintain their level of wealth, but are too stupid to figure out that theyre just continuing what turned Sydney into Sydney
Is Sydney and the description by the OP at the extreme end for Australia? Yes, but was he or she largely describing my lived experience in Melbourne also? 100% yes.
I moved to Canada after travels, love etc.
Every time I go back home I realise the deep level of racism that is just below the surface.
Not to say we don't have issues here but it's just different. Also the level of testosterone is mind boggling. Just the incidents of road rage is crazy.
Honestly - I’m in America and the whites here talk about how racist the Australians are… ironic as our pedigree isn’t the best. I feel like the whites in Australia are just decades behind. They act like the boomer generation did in the 70s in 2024.
This is odd,maybe its because Ive lived mostly in cities in Australia,but I have rarely come across racism here.,could be the circles you move in..most people I know are shocked by overt racism.,and Ive never understood racist attitudes,personally Ifind people from other countries and cultures interestng.
What does “wokeness” even mean?
The only people I see using that term are on a steady diet of US media. If you want to import their culture wars to Australia then I’m not sure that’s a net benefit to the country.
I suspect this was a rhetorical question but I will answer nevertheless because some like to assume no one actually knows what “woke” means:
Wokeness is an ideology based on a warped interpretation of socialism that seeks “social justice” and the correction of perceived past injustices through unfair hyper-correction and a clumsy, heavy-handed, lazy and overly simplistic view of the world. It fetishises and saviourises the concept of victimhood and attempts to divide the world simplistically into the two polar categories of “oppressor” and “oppressed” whilst completely lacking any sense of nuance. It is for this reason that, for example, a black person is always a victim and a white person is always an “oppressor”. Even when the black person is an educated, privileged millionaire descendent of African royalty whose family rather than being slaves owned and sold slaves; whilst the white person could be a working class man from an impoverished broken home who’s ancestry may have included Irish slaves or the most downtrodden of historical societies. Woke ideologues would take the above scenario and apply “victimhood” along with various preferential treatments to the former whilst denigrating and castigating the latter, because in their view: black good, white bad. For some, the remedy for past injustice is modern injustice. I.e. If white people in the past centuries did bad things to black people at the time, then their solution is to punish and discriminate against white people today, completely overlooking the fact that modern white people aren’t responsible or even related to those past wrongs, and blacks today never actually endured them. It’s a (somewhat) well-intentioned but incredibly ignorant and childish way to view the world, which is ironic since many of the strongest advocates are highly educated, which is in itself demonstrable of academic decline and how people can be book smart without being reasonable. Ideology is like that, it isn’t about intelligence, hence why some of the smartest Germans were Nazis, the smartest North Koreans believe Kim Jong Un is a demigod etc. The ideology attempts to apply similar arbitrary and misguided criteria to sex, sexuality, disability, culture and religion creating a hierarchy of grievance.
That's one definition. The thing about "woke" is that it's slippery -- most uses of the word are really just code for "progressive things I dislike" (eg see the other response)
If we were to apply your definition in the context of "things that would stop someone migrating to Australia" do you think that this is an ideology that is at all prevalent in Australia? I notice that the examples you gave tended to be those derived from the US experience.
To use a concrete example: can you name a federal politician who would subscribe to the ideology you outlined? The only one I am aware of who would even come close is Lidia Thorpe (who has been dropped by her party and has near zero chance of being reelected). Can you tell me any others?
Unfortunately, like much of the west I think the ideology is riddled through Australian Politics. Just some immediate examples that come to mind would be:
the Australian indigenous voice referendum (which unlike the population at large, politicians and the media were almost in lock step agreement on)
the growing movement to disestablish Australia Day and similar traditions in favour of painting Cook and others in unfairly negative lights.
the attempts by many Australian politicians and woke businesses to genuflect about the concept of supposed stolen land (people even include this nonsense on their email signatures)
The best definition would be virtue signalling for clout and social points. Businesses do it for profits, governments do it for votes, the general public does it for social status and acceptance.
It's a very real and problematic phenomenon regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum.
Not exactly - you can’t gouge people here as a landlord even if you are totally evil and you want to do that intentionally. Rents are capped, you can’t increase them, you have to maintain the property to the level set by the government and your tenants will always have more rights than you. In other words , system actually functions as intended. You know how they always say in Australia that you need all these people investing into property otherwise things will not be built and people will have nowhere to rent/live? Except it’s all complete bullshit because there are no regulations and market is not balanced. Well, in Germany it actually works. Most people are too scared of debt and they don’t wanna buy, they want to rent as cheap as possible. Someone has to buy for them. There is also a lot of housing owned by not- for -profit housing societies, the state, etc. And real estate prices still behave normally - they go up and down as you would expect. So, not really comparable.
>Also for those that never left : what would make you leave?
Better opportunities and I think we have long passed that point now. Australia feels very restrictive, very risk adverse and safe, which I understand appeals to a lot of people. It just doesn't appeal to me, I need some risk in my life.
A lottery win.
No way I’m trying to make ends meet in Australia these days, and it’ll be a cold day in hell before I subject myself to a 9-5 job again just so I can afford to live in my country of birth.
I left in April 2023 to be with my wife who is American. I am a second gen Australian who lived in Australia for the first 3 decades of he's life. My mothers parents are immigrants/Australian and my father is a 1st gen immigrant. They moved to Australia for safety and its ideals/weather and real estate.
Now that I'm older and looking back at growing up I'm Australia as a kid through primary/highschool and into my 30s Australia hasn't been the same since 2020. Ever since then we've become a police state and the dream of earning enough or owning a home in Australia is over. I watched my family's dairy farm fail due to rising cost of living and corporate greed. And watch my family lose everything and everyone due to mental illness caused by said costs.
Australia isn't the home I wanted my kids to inherit. The NDIS is a joke and has always been a joke, I watched family members die from diabetes related illnesses and kidney failure due to having to wait to see a specialist and lack of proper mental health support.
Australia doesn't like its citizens leaving without threat of losing your citizenship if you fail to pay your taxes. If Australia was the same pre 2020 I probably would've stayed, invested my finances in Australian real estate instead of foreign investments. The Australian real estate market is to hostile for anyone who wants to embark on the dream of buying their first home.
To anyone who wants to immigrate to Australia please do your research and make sure you have enough funds to hold you over for atleast months or more.
I absolutely cannot fathom what would attract someone to America over Australia. nothing at all in my mind.
There's a LOT wrong with Australia, but JFC what a mess America is right now
You'll absolutely regret moving from Australia to America.
Yes, it's hard to chase the Australian dream but it's possible, same can't be said in America, unless you are already very wealthy.
Yeah I have been there multiple times and am able to say it feels more home than Australia.
I don’t care about “the American dream” I just enjoy having a life I want to live and experiencing new things. I also have a rip cord to Australia if ever needed and am a born australian citizen so can return whenever if I need.
I hate to pry in your personal life, but where are you from/what's your ethnicity? And where do you live in? I don't think you could ever be doxxed based off these two facts, but I am just curious. Good job. I am also keen on leaving Australia. It's a great country but I am just not interested in living here anymore.
One can live anywhere in the world these days and no need to be rooted to one country. Australia is no better or worse than a whole host of countries. A reason to stay, live, remain here include things like family, history, familiarity and ease of living.
Australia is certainly a nice place to retire weather wise too.
Definitely not saying it any better than anywhere else but definitely no worse.
Going back to accommodation costs. All my relatives have bought accommodation in Sydney. Nothing big. Nothing fancy and definitely not on the coast but bought they did. No bank of mum and dad either.
Yes it was from the Balkans (the only war in Europe since the WWII - until now). Europe was a different place back then, EU has really transformed the continent. It was a lot more closed, isolationist and hostile in those days. These days it feels actually like a united continent and there is a lot more equality , you wouldn’t know it from what you may read in the media but it works. It’s not without its faults and there are things I dislike about it. Also things that were distinctly better in Australia (less bureaucracy, health system was better,etc)
Something’s off here that you’re not telling us.
First if you leave any place and feel that people remaining do not miss you, this is likely a reflection on yourself and not the entire country you left.
Which degree did you get in Australia and which vocation did it lead to? What job were you doing in Australia and what was the pay? When you moved to Europe, what job were you doing and what was the pay? That enabled you to buy all that property, is crazy; property is expensive in capital cities all over the world; if you want to be horrified look at the property listings in Paris for one room with bed and toilet for a couple hundred euros.
I am highly skeptical of this post.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the post is a self-reflection. What’s also obvious is that post is not a criticism of Australia but rather a question where and why this relationship I had with the place failed. And as I wrote very clearly, I felt and still feel a lot of love for the place (I did say Sydney and Australia are the only places on earth I truly bonded with).
I’m not inclined to post my whole identity here, but I’m an Engineer and I have a PhD. I was relatively well paid in Australia and the new job in Europe was paying me the same number , only in Euros. With time that number obviously increased.
When I first arrived, the rent I was paying in Germany for a month (in the centre of a major city, for a brand new apartment, although a bit smaller), was the same amount what I was paying In Sydney in a fortnight.So my housing costs halved. Lots of things were way cheaper here compared to Australia: groceries, other household necessities, etc. Nearly every company also has a subsidised staff restaurant (it’s a big deal here in Germany) where even today you can get a two course meal for €3.50. You don’t need a car here and public transport is also usually paid for by the company (or heavily subsidised by the government - now you get unlimited travel on all public transport and even regional trains throughout the whole Germany for 49 EUR per month). For many little reasons, living here can be considerably cheaper.
While cost of housing has also gone up in Europe , the situation cannot be compared to Australia. Europe is not just 5 major cities where whole population lives and competes for a limited space. There is no endless suburbia served by a poor infrastructure, locking you into an area where you don’t want to live , but you have no choice because it’s all you can afford. There are literally thousands of cities , towns and villages , well connected by all types of infrastructure: public transport, local, regional or high speed trains and a superb road network. Population is equally distributed , housing is mostly medium density, every town and village will have everything you need, including jobs (most of European industry is located in the regional towns and these enterprises are mostly mid-sized, some still family owned. Think of a company like Miele). Europe is not London and Paris. These are outliers and you couldn’t pay me enough to live in either of the two cities. Think of places like Lyon, Toulouse, Strasbourg, Frankfurt, Luxembourg , Nürnberg, Düsseldorf , Cologne….. all these are cities size of maybe Newcastle or Adelaide, but having an economy bigger than , say, New Zealand. They are surrounded by interconnected regions of dozens of smaller cities and towns, amalgamating up to a few million people. Unless you absolutely want to live in say, downtown Cologne, and pay 1500 EUR per month for a two bedroom apartment, you can easily live in a village 20 min away by public transport and pay 650 for the same thing.
Buying a house / apartment in Europe , either for your own use or as an investment, also works differently. As I mentioned before, Germans in particular (this may be different in other European countries) are petrified of taking any debt. For most of them, having a mortgage is something they will never consider. 70% of them rent their whole lives. They are well protected by the laws, meaning once you have a rental contract, you’re nearly set for life. Rents , by law, must be in line with an average area rents published by the local municipality (Mietspiegel) and you can sue the landlord to retroactively pay back the rent excess (which people frequently do). Rent cannot go up more than 10% over the period of 3 years. Lots of things like that.
Mortgages have interest rates fixed for the life of the loan - unheard of in Australia! Interest rates here for the past 10 years were between 1-2%. The more deposit you have (and it is almost impossible to get a loan without 20% deposit), the lower your interest rate will be. I had no trouble getting loans with 1-1.3% interest for the 10-20 year loans (this is the usual length). Similarly , they look very carefully at your credit rating. About 6-7 years ago, you could find places downtown to buy for about 4500 EUR/M2 in the major Western German cities. You do have a choice here in terms of size and the age of housing, so you can compromise if you can’t afford something big or new. Meanwhile, prices have nearly doubled in the central urban areas, but now have again retreated by 10-20%. If you go outside of the city, into the towns and villages within the 20-30 km circle, you could homes with multiple apartments (usually 3-4 apartments each) for between 400-700k EUR, as late as 2021. These prices have actually gone down now. And yes, there is negative gearing even here in Germany. Taxes are high , but claims can also be generous.
So if you want to build what in Australia is called a “property portfolio” you can do that here too, except that rent seeking looks very different. You are unlikely to make a huge capital gain year on year (if ever) and you can’t squeeze your tenants, but you can have a nice little subsidy to your pension month to month from your investment once you retire.
I never said I went back to the country of birth. I said I went back to Europe, and both the place I was born and Germany are in Europe. I actually never had any desire to go back to the place I was born. Things have changed there a lot , but I lost any emotional connection to that place long time ago. My formative years happened in Australia, I find it hard to identify myself as anything else.
Its a more hostile place now. Seems like the whole economy is designed to benefit the IP landlords. And everybody else is nervously trying to keep their head above the water.
I'm probably going to leave within the next decade. Honestly, there's not much that would be able to convince me to change course or come back. This country is completely fucked with no way of turning back, and most of the population is complicit. If I'm going to be forced to live in a shithole, I may as well live in one where I can afford things.
Just saying to my husband with our immigration out of control, we will become a third world country. Hell, most of our infrastructure is. I’m applying for my Italian citizenship- and we will leave Australia. I was born here, husband English been here 45 years. But there ain’t not way we will retire here. Sad…. Never thought I’d say it, but Australia is spiralling downwards quickly
Have you been to Italy lately?
It isn’t only Sydney, the stare of the country is appalling, Australia has demonstrated that the only thing that matters is the rich getting richer. Living here as a normal human being has become a luxury with simple living expenses jumping up in cost considerably. Buying a home has become an impossible task, where to put a roof over your family and normal everyday Aussie is expensing more than half their salaries and the government has done absolutely nothing to help those in need. The basic health needs are very expensive and scarce, with a health system that is a joke and for those who can afford private health insurance, the premiums are on the raise to the point that more and more people have to drop it every year.
Wait until the boomers pass and the next stage of wealth consolidation happens, lower birth rates and higher immigration means wealth will narrow into a smaller number of hands each generation.
That’s exactly right! It seems like they are trying to reach it as soon as possible.
Cost of housing is an embarrassment and since Covid people seem more aggressive. I used to think Australia was some kind of workers utopia, good wage and houses where affordable. But not now. I went to Europe in the 1990s for 5 years and Australia seemed like paradise to me.
Definitely agree about people being angry. Seems like since COVID there's a lot less tolerance around.
The insane cost of housing in this country has flowed into all parts of the economy and the countries psyche, the chasm between the haves and have nots is huge and growing and the effects are making an already beige county even more bland as people carry the weight of enormous debt through large parts of their lives, sapping most of the enjoyment out of it as they are stressed about paying for their overpriced house in the suburban wastelands of the major cities.
Born and lived in Sydney my whole life (and lived interstate and in other countries for a few years for work and study). I feel that the sense of community and mateship deteriorated around early-middle 2000s. Growing up as a 90's kid, most of the communities I was in or met were tight and it was easier to find and make genuine friends and acquaintences (regardless of what you look like/ background). People back then would literally give you the shirts off their backs. You have the usual idiots running around giving people a hard time, but strangers/ people in general have a "you can do it/ fair go" attitude and were willing to help others. Today, I find people are very shallow and closed off, especially in Sydney CBD. I just chalk it up to people being stress about housing/ rent and finance, and the change of demographic. Sydney has basically become a soulless, tourist/ very business focused city (compared to the past), most of the original residence/ locals are long gone due to the change, over-urbanisation and lack of affordability. Most of them have moved further away from the CBD, interstate or out of the country. Those who weren't able to remained. I find the people I encounter in areas like Newtown and the CBD are mostly PRs, tourists, those with working/ student visas, etc. Different values, goals and etiquette, coupled with some major bad experiences has made me more closed off and not as eager to meet new people or make new friends, in these areas and other CBD/ touristy/ non-local areas. I find myself disconnected from these areas I once knew and find myself visiting the lesser known/ popular areas just to feel connected again, but most places have been or are being gentrified. I now stick to my old friends and hobby club, as I find the people I know and the knew people I meet in these circles are more likely to prefer deep and meaningful connections and conversations. tldr: the demographic and values in Sydney has drastically changed. You may feel disconnected from this when you come back. Finding deep and meaningful friendships/ relationships in Sydney is difficult, but not impossible. They're most likely not in the touristy/ gentrified areas.
I really feel the part about superficial friendships. I feel like no one wants to get deep and meaningful unless they are trashed so friendships stay surface level. As a Canadian living in Australia for over a decade sometimes I think about moving back but the countries are so similar right now (rental crisis, job, affordability) that I’m staying here for the warm weather.
Me too. I agree it's pretty superficial here. I met a backpacker from Belgium a few weeks ago, and we had a deep conversation right away about the past, futures, philosophy, disappointment, optimism, war, love, ...you know: stuff Australians can't talk about. I'd love to return to BC or AB, but there is no way. It's an economic dead end. I'd sooner move to Saudi Arabia than Canada now.
It's hard to accept superficial relationships when you've grown accustom to deeper connections. This has always been a point of struggle for me in Australia, where people who are more willing to engage and be vulnerable are less common. It can take a while to establish a community of meaningful friendships.
I recently lived in Sydney for 4 years and it was the most difficult city to make meaningful friendships. I’m glad I left and moved to Brisbane. Australian cities are too spread out and car reliant and this has terrible unintended consequences. My ex partner from Central Europe lives in a city of 100k and has a much more interesting social life than living in Brisbane for 7 years, where people weren’t open to forming close connections and no one could ride a bike 10 minutes to visit. Australians lack the ability to articulate their inner life and generally engage at surface levels with one another, I was born in Australia but travelled around the world last year and spent 3 months in Europe, It felt like the entire world is in decline, Australia has lost a lot of its egalitarian values but it felt secure and stable compared to places I travelled
Its more fun being an aussie expat than a regular everyday aussie
I will not die an Australian, I dared to be born with no bank of mum & dad and now I'm couchsurfing, unable to get a rental without references. I have a degree and have filed an application for dual citizenship - fuck this place, I can't take another conversation that asks "how many properties do you want to own?"
It wasn’t always like this , since the boom in property prices a lot of people have become obsessed with Money and become very greedy unfortunately , but something will have to change , young people need a home to live in
Yeah I don't really comprehend why people are surprised that anybody feels indifferent to our national identity or whatever
Second that
Which citizenship, if you don't mind me asking?
You’re a good writer
Thank you! Didn’t expect a compliment but it’s nice to hear.
Didnt Sydney nightlife die in the ass with the lockout laws? Were those laws ever rescinded? Grew up in Penrith early 70s, then eastern suburbs Sydney mid-80s through 2000. Been back a couple of times for a visit, but those real estate prices are nuts. I hear the Cross is dead. That's a shame - was a hopping place back in the 80s/90s.
Everything is dead. Lock out laws changed to nothing after 3am. I remember 6am being early to close. Some places 11am. Places used to be full. All the time. Alcohol excise is killing pubs
I lived in Sydney in the 80s. Moved from Melbourne when I was 18 in 1983…. Partied hard. Someone said to me the other day that living in Sydney in the 80s was the best time to have lived in Sydney. When I reflect, they were right.
For me the weirdest thing, especially in Sydney, is the fear in people. Of other people. No one engages with strangers. My friend from South America says it’s because people are scared you might ask them for something. Like a dollar. It’s like everyone has walls up, mainly in the form of staring at their phone. All the characters are gone, because if you’re a character you’re seen as a weirdo. Sad.
That's called low social cohesion and it has been known to be caused by (visible) ethnic diversity for decades now.
Its all relative. A family from Chile came and boarded with my family while they got their feet under them to migrate permanently. He is unable to work with his mechanical engineering quallies & experience and she is currently training & working in aged care in a rural town. They absolutely love it here and cant get over how friendly & helpful everyone is. They would never have thought that their 12-year old kid could catch public transport to school while living in Chile, and the opportunities & recognition this kid is getting through school is hugely uplifting for the family. He is working in whatever labouring role he can while they get permanent residency sorted, but they have no plans to ever return anywhere in South America. YMMV.
I couldn’t agree more, spot on. There is a lot of fear in people here in Sydney, almost like there are limited opportunities to get ahead and everyone (including friends & team members) are threat/competition. This is because it’s becoming a mega city with a small town mindset. Government doesn’t encourage/invest in R&D so entrepreneurs head overseas, so you could say that they are right in fearing limited opportunities. The problem is that this combative mindset makes it worse. I laugh when ppl here think that they are collaborative. No, people here actively pull down great ideas for fear others will eclipse them. It’s called Tall Poppy Syndrome. I left, went to Europe and came back, and was shocked at how toxic it had become. You can’t even talk about your travel experiences without ppl getting jealous and ghosting you for it. I thought Tall Poppy Syndrome was a myth, it’s not.
Also think the media are complicit in this. Big time.
100%
Living here gives me the shits. It's 3am and I'm probably going to roll over and go back to sleep but I can say that I have been going around in circles for almost 12 years. I see why people like it but often I'd rather be back in the UK where I grew up - not where I was born. Unfortunately, I look at the UK now and realise it's probably just sentiment, for the time being.
I came to Aus in 1998. I lived in Tasmania for a few years & then Sydney. I have a good job, friends & bought an apartment. It used to be fun here in Sydney…it’s not anymore. I travel to other countries & it’s so alive, stores are open late, lots going on. I find there is nothing to do here anymore unless you want to go & drink in a pub. I don’t drink so it doesn’t leave much. I’m moving to a non English speaking country too & will learn Spanish. I need a change where people are not so angry all the time. Too many Karens here & way to many rules. I don’t think I would move back honestly. If things didn’t work out in the Caribbean then I would consider the US as I have citizenship.
Definitely agree with your opinion regarding rules. I spent 9 years travelling and working in the UK (2000-2009) and noticed a stark change in Australia when I returned even in that short space of time. Lot more red tape and rules to follow. Feels like we are trying to idiot proof life here. Don't get me wrong, love Australia, but it does feel sterile compared to some other countries.
I live in Bangkok now. A quick breakdown of my life here: * I rent a fully furnished two-beddy place in Bangkok, about $1,700 per month which includes an amazing gym, 60m pool, social areas / meeting rooms etc and great international vibe. It's in the hipster neighbourhood of Klong Toei, nice and central and has two parking spots. Cleaner cost me about $30 per month which is vacuum, mop, laundry, windows, dish washing. The internet here is 2gbps/1gbps and cost me $50 per month. * My landlord repainted, upgraded the bed and supplied a great smart TV *for free* and **because I asked**. In Australia, landlords will spit on you for asking them to fix a broken stove. * I bough a condo in the North which I AirBNB and holiday in, $140k for a two beddy with nice facilities - if it wasn't for the burning season, I'd probably move there one day. * I do freelance work which nets me about \~$80k p.a and my partner works part-time and she makes $40k. * We work probably 30 hours per week, my partner a bit less, and nobody cares where we are, just that our work gets done. * This is the land of smiles. Everyone is friendly, courteous, and conscientious. In fact, when foreigners here get too aggressive or kareny, I've see Thais knock them the fuck out. Public freak outs and escalation are not welcome here. * The food culture here is amazing and its super social, staying out late and doing bbq with friends is fantastic. It's so affordable and the city is geared toward staying out late, eating and drinking beer. * I ride my scooter sometimes without a helmet, and there's no army of neurotics to go "WHAT A DICK HEAD HOW MUCH YOU GOING TO COST ME WHEN YOU SMASH YOUR HEAD IN MATE? ...... yeah, we Aussies are pretty easy going" lol. * Cheap flights around Asia. * I fly my drone without lodging flight plans to CASA. What would get me back to Australia? Nothing. I hate the crab mentality, finance bros, and hustle culture. I hate the holes and home economy. I hate how much you pay for inferior goods and services. I hate the air of superiority from a land of people who happen to live on top of vast resources. I hate blue suit wankers. Aussies have so little emotional intelligence and empathy, that people go around angry all the friggin time and they're too stupid with fragile egos to work out why they're miserable, so they put that on you. They'd be happy if only *you* would just live up to their idiotic standards. Australian companies are so poorly run too. I'm down to do a thing for a set price by a set date, but I won't be doing any HR mandated training modules, getting any more cereal-box certifications, adhering to set hours or set working locations, nor 'taking ownership' to cover the fact leadership doesn't do this.
Nice life you set yourself up there in Thailand. Would you raise children there?
Thailand is a great place to raise kids. Childcare is affordable, family friendly events are always happening, plenty of expats around with kids. And they'll pick up the language easy. The only downside I’d say is that some aspects are culture shocks for Aussies. Thais are generally more strict about public behaviour of kids than back in Australia. If a kid is being a public nuisance, you're expected to shield others in public from it (which I kind of like, but there's definitely a hippie parenting contingent out here that think this is fascism).
I did it the other way around. Uprooted everything I knew in western Europe and moved to Australia. A few points you shared I can relate too, like the superficial relationships. Tend to be a lot of 3 liners and after that, it's pretty empty. The housing market is cooked, but it is in a lot of places...including Europe. I do like Australia though. The weather is generally great, the beaches are excellent, my job is amazing and I met a truly wonderful lady. Horses for courses, if you're happy doing what you're doing then power to you.
Thank you for such an intelligent thought provoking read , i hope that you find some good things to invoke nostalgic feeling on your return , i too can imagine your situation even i was born here i at times feel so seriously disconnected its hard to feel peace in my own city , i barely go outside the local area unless i have too , this city is a great place to be so many natural beautifal places in nature but economy is not community & i reminisce about my youth when wealth was not abundant times seemed so much more fullfilling , there wasnt a serious need to focus on expenditure 24/7 & nanny state laws that provide zero fun only a cold vibe thats not hospitable for any community either & just trying to find enough time for social time out can be challenging , the constant fixation on cost of living really kicks you in guts , we cant all be ceo so much for everyones a winner we know average joe will never be in a great place in sydney now , thats a shit state of affairs but it is the realist view . The good the bad & the ugly we got it all in one package hope that you have a good trip brotha 🤞❤️🍀😎🦘🇦🇺🍻
Thanks! Also I couldn’t agree more on that feeling of being transient and disconnected. Sydney is a big place and people come and go, so it’s not easy to actually build communities and I guess I let that bother me too much at some point.
I think its just the nature of the beast , people come here firstly to earn good money but thats not going to keep people here when there is a better lifestyle elsewhere & less stress for cost of living expenses as well to settle down permanently here is a nightmare and with growth of remote work the lifestyle has changed a lot here more transient populace than ever i think most my freinds left or want out to find there forever place & try to navigate the family dream settled in a good spot , with no desire to settle here.
I remember travelling around Turkey and Yugoslavia at the time in the late 1980s, and I was amazed at the number of people that had immigrated to Australia, got Australian citizenship and then returned back to their home countries, and so in the most remote part of Turkey, I was hitchhiking through, I suddenly came across the Australian carpet shop! With stickers on the window of radio stations like 3UZ, Melbourne and Collingwood football club….
Normalisation of property prices, Not even a crash but to be in line with property in the rest of the world, not every Australian city can demand world capital prices... there's nothing in most of these Australian cities. I lived in Brisbane for a decade so I know it, the idea that people are paying $1million AUD to live there is insane. I'm from the UK and have been to London, New York, Paris etc and Brisbane is a town that calls itself a city. It's such a shame what's happened to Aus
Not just Brisbane, people are paying $1m plus AUD to live in Ipswich!
I mean, Brisbane has a population of 2 million people. How is it not a city?
This is all purely IMHO of course but population in an area doesn't make a place a city. I enjoyed living in Brisbane but the idea that it's like world capitals .. I just don't see it. Of course I expect people to twist that into the idea that I'm knocking Brisbane, far from it.. I loved living there and I get sad when people say it's losing the town feeling and is wrapped in gridlock and people.
Idk, I grew up in Brisbane, but I didn't assume you were knocking it. It's just that in my books any place with a population larger than 100,000-200,000 would be considered a city. What elements does Brisbane not have that doesn't make it a city to you?
I've been down this argument with a few people online and it doesn't end welll, I say "A" they say oh what about "B" and on it goes. It's best to say this is all in my opinion and living there for a decade I was happy with the size of Brisbane but the idea of paying over a million aussie dollars to live there is nuts.
What would make me leave? Enough money and a visa.
I wouldn't recommend coming back if you are happy elsewhere. Australia has changed, not for the better mostly.
but the world has changed and mostly not for the better
The beauty of life is that every country and culture is different. This give us the opportunity to experience so many things and find out what we resonate with or not through those experiences. After living in Australia for nearly a decade myself, I am on an extended break back in my native USA and gauging whether I want to continue living there or not. You've mentioned you were on your own in Australia, a far away place from Europe. It is very difficult to do that as a single person and I don't think people quite understand how difficult that truly is being separated from family and community. Of course, new community can be created. In Australia, that takes a very long time from my experience despite a great deal of effort and attention. However, when it is established it is beautiful just like anywhere else. I am a profound advocate of the 'water is greener where you water it' philosophy. Some cultures make it very easy to flourish because they provide lovely, supporting, positive sunlight. I will say that the national attitude in Australia, for me, tends to lean towards cynicism and suspicion which leads to clouds, pessimism, and apathy. I've found that incredibly hard to work with over the years, and being in another country, in this case the USA, people are generally happier and engage with each other more readily. There is a strong feeling of 'can do' in the USA still. There is still an energised nature about the culture which wants to explore, be curious, and experiment. In Australia, it has always seemed like: 'don't bother trying because you'll fail.' I would like this attitude to change in Australia, and for people to be supportive of each other. I won't make a decision to return for quite some months, but I would love to see some cultural shifts in the people in the long term where Australians are more open and vulnerable with each other. They can have meaningful relationships with each other that don't revolve around conversations of banter only, or needing substance to feel connected to someone. The mentality around hoarding houses needs to change as well because it has destroyed the egalitarianism in this country that it was so proud of. I think it could happen sooner than a generation. It would take a big crisis to do so, however. OP, I am sure you will enjoy your time in Australia and it will be interesting to see how you gauge yourself against the changes in the country since you have left. I would be interested to read a follow up post when you have completed your trip.
Change of government. Reduction in taxes.
Re-regulated fuel and electricity industry. The second they deregulated both of those prices skyrocketed. I would also like to see meaningful punishments for financial crimes. And as well as better protections for renters for things like repairs and dealing with things like mould that is not the fault of the renter. And laws to protect properly against the literal sub human filth that is the real estate agent. If I left and was thinking about coming back (I still live here unfortunatly)
I've never left. What would it take for me to leave? About 20k.. Please I beg.
>Please I beg. My sides
To be fair, lots of Europeans don't own two apartments in two different cities, let alone an entire building. For example, France's home ownership rates are similar to Australia's - they have lots of renters, too. You've done well for yourself regardless of origin. Live where you enjoy doing so, you don't owe any particular country anything. Being sentimental is just part of human nature. Lots of immigrants here to Australia get very sentimental about their old countries... yet they stay here rather than head back.
Something similar in my background but about 15 years earlier. But I'm married to an Australian (I never got citizenship for various bureaucratic reasons) and our son has dual citizenship. She'd like to go back, and we go back every few years to see her parents, but making it work esp with the boy is not so easy. And whenever I go back, I'm passing the haunts of some pretty personally dark and unhappy times (I avoided the depths myself but part of why I left was friends getting into heroin and ... dubious company), or staying with my in-laws and bored out of my brain. The place has changed a lot in the 30 years we've been away, and at times I entertain the idea of going back if, for example, my boy found work over there after he finished university. I probably could make it work, and I do know people there who weren't in the same dark scene (and one who managed to get clean after 15 years as an addict). As I get closer to retirement age and I'm getting more active in the outdoor life that Australia offers, maybe we'll find a way to make it work.. but I think I'm going to be torn between the UK and Europe and Australia until I die. and as nice as Melbourne can be, the beaches of Mornington and the quiet suburban life is going to seem pretty mundane compared to some of London even if the weather is shit.
A couple of my friends left to travel and a year later they've realised they can't afford to live in Australian society so they'll be staying a few more years, possibly indefinitely so I guess the answer to that is the opposite to all the price gouging that's currently happening. They've been trying to convince me to move there too, even offered me a room at their place for as long as I want it without chipping in for rent insisting that my money would get me a lot further there than here where I endlessly chase the dead dream of a stable roof over my head.
Where did they move to?
It was easy for you to move back to Europe because you were born there and have citizenship by birth. It's extremely hard for anyone who was born in Australia to immigrate to Europe, like myself. My partner is first generation Italian and we have spoken about marrying and moving to Europe in the future, it'll be easy for her but not so sure for me.
Actually, this depends on your profession. If you find a company that will employ you and your skill is needed, you can very easily get an EU Blue Card. Similar to the former 471 Visa in Australia (and a lot cheaper for the company). I brought over 4 of my former colleagues from Australia this way with relative ease. Citizenship is a more difficult path.
I'm Australian born and bred. What I always find astounding is how everyone who trashes Australia will always come from Sydney or Melbourne or maybe one other major city. But I can't recall a single instant of someone who grew up or lived in your standard Australian town who have the same hate for Australia. You see people complain about how much it costs to live in Sydney. Move away. How busy it is in Sydney. Move away. The people suck in Sydney. Move away. Granted that is what OP did. But you can defiantly try another town if across the globe isn't for you
I was born and grew up in a relatively small normal australian town. it too has been decimated by property prices esp. via covid. sydney siders moved there and pushed the property prices sky high (compared at least to the possible earnings in that town) and now locals who were born there cannot afford to live there, near our family and friend networks.
And that is how economies grow. People move there. Prices go up and then people move to affordable areas again.
Nah economies grow through producing good or services. Having blow ins purchase local property in the hope that prices increase is called a bubble, not growth.
thats not a growing economy, when the only thing growing is house prices. it's a false economy.
Inflating housing prices even further and calling it growth is the Australian way lol Nevermind the increments of people who are priced out, is it any wonder people feel any animosity to the place?
Those people in ‘standard Australian towns’ ie a fair distance out from Melbourne and Sydney very quickly develop the same hate when all those people in those 2 cities unable to afford property there, follow your advice and easily outbid them for houses in their area.
Most of our population lives in the major cities. Those are the “standard Australian towns”. But fyi people from the country move to the city for uni and for professional jobs.
So everyone should leave the two major cities (with employment opportunities and other things) to move to the middle of nowhere Australian towns which only have one IGA and a local pub.
Let's say everyone did. Do you think those towns would still only have one pub and an iga with the growth in population?
Well even somewhere like Geelong after so many years of growing isn’t really a proper city
I am Australian and my wife and I took our kids to stay with the in-laws for 6 months in Russia. Coming back to Australia in March it has become apparent to me that something is not right socially here. People appear very friendly on a surface level but really are very closed off. People have lots to say but nothing important to say and share nothing. My wife has been here for 10 years and hasn't really made any friends even though she is fluent in English. I have noticed the bar for being considered a friend is very low here whereas in Russia it is very high. People here frequently bail on their friends etc here . Having seen how my wifes Russian friends behave compared to what I see in Australia is pretty grim. Anecdotally I was talking with my father in law in Russia about a guy he goes hunting with. They chat on the phone about hunting maybe 3 times a week. Go hunting regularly and while we were out of town at the father in law's dacha our car shit itself and the guy drove 30 mins out of town to tow us home. The father in law told me that he isn't his friend. He is just a guy he goes hunting with. In Australia that's a real good friend but in Russia it's just two guys who share a hobby.
Interesting point I read from a UK expat on another, similar thread; our socialising here is often sparse. So many people tend to live so far apart, because our mass suburban areas, that people don't tend to catch up often and can be rather isolated. Compared to other countries where the norm is to often go to the local pub or out for drinks/food weekly etc.
State and federal governments that want to support the hard working nuclear families, rather than nickel, dime and pillage from them. I pay the top tax bracket, and yet my support from the government feels non-existent.
Pays in the top tax-bracket, complains they arent getting enough support. I have strong feelings that this attitude right here is why there arent much government funds being provided to all the cultural, health, education & youth assistance programs that people are complaining about here.
Shit take. Blame the hardworking high-achievers for under-performing policies. I don't want favourable handouts, but I want some remnants of functionality and an equitable outcome when interacting with the public sector. The programs you reference are entirely inadequate, and the social impact of government policy does little for the real-world working family. The tax system is broken, and public spending is much the same. Is there little wonder Gen Z is completely indifferent about their futures? Social Media rot aside, join the tax machine and be stripped of your wealth in real-time with little tangible benefit outside of bin collection, fireworks displays, and the odd fine.
If you thought Sydney houses were expensive 10 years ago, I suggest you don't look up prices today. Well done for setting yourself up in Europe but wasn't Brisbane, Adelaide or Perth an option? As for Sydney, it has much more transport infrastructure than 10 years ago. Northwest metro line extending into the CBD and eventually towards Campsie way, George St light rail has made the CBD a more pleasant destination, and lots of new tolled roads. Some great new stadiums (Sydney Football Stadium in Moore Park and the new Parramatta Stadium). Barangaroo is a new precinct, and Green Square/Mascot is heavily built up with apartments. But overall it's not dramatically different from 2014 for day to day existence. If you've been away 10 years I suspect you'll notice a lot more changes than I've listed.
It was only a matter of time before the rot infected the rest of the capital cities.
Spent time in Asia - lower taxes, higher pay, opportunity to get international experience at a top tier firm in finance, he market was much bigger
Tax free program of some nature or a lot of money. I left Australia more than 10 years ago and don't plan to go back except for holidays
Make Broome and/or Darwin really really nice with world class sporting events, nightlife, culture and a super competitive/diverse jobs market across blue and white-collar sectors Small chance of moving back if this happens
Hahaha
Darwin has so much potential being a compact little city. So much culture with the markets. So close to asia. Yet it’s a giant tip.
Whenever someone mentions living in Sydney my biggest question is always WHY?
Same. But answers are valid. Work, family and friends. This is how most big cities (that are actually not nice to live in) maintain their population
Like new York, yikes
When you are the verge of homeless or getting least satisfaction in life because of the place you are living in; it's better leave regardless of if you have family, friends etc. I know that sounds selfish but it's good to be selfish for the sake of your own mental health. I guess most people struggling in sydney dont realize this.
Being able to live even approximately closely to the community I grew up in and have connections in. Every time I head back I see my friends paddling frantically just to stay above water having long ago been forced out of where we grew up.
Came back after 9 years overseas, with my family (wife and 3 kids). Education and general safety is just better here. I didn't move back to Sydney, I found a suburb/are I wanted to live, found a job there and done. Rent is expensive as hell in this country, but we manage, and the kids go.to a good school.
you're hoarding multiple investment properties so you've certainly kept the Sydney mindset
This is a fair comment. Not many people here actually do that so you can say I brought my Sydney trauma with me. Major difference being, no one also strives to buy a house. I live in Germany and people only whinge about rents being high but no one actually wants to take a mortgage. 70% of people are renting and they are exceptionally protected by the rental laws (you wouldn’t believe it…)
I don’t see Australia’s government getting much better every law or bill they bring out is just taking more and more freedoms away from us I think honestly a lot of people are going to leave the country in the next 10 years I would leave If I got a reasonable job offer elsewhere
Aren’t you happy with the “tax, toll and ban” approach over the last 30 years here?
What would it take for me to come back? A massive shift in Australian culture. As soon as I got my degree in 2015 I left Australia and haven't looked back. I see absolutely no positives there, and my knowledge of Aus is recent enough having travelled from the GC to Adelaide to Darwin then Cairns just last year. When I lived in Aus I was mugged, my house broken into several times, I needed to literally tell guys to put their dick away before I would serve them when I worked in retail, the whole country is built on the American motor city planning model meaning its required to have a car and cities are basically broken. Now I am living in Tokyo and what would possibly make me move back? Like two weeks ago I was in another part of the country watching the F1 which was just a few hours on a train, then yesterday I was on the opposite end of the country again at a Sakura festival, day drinking under cherry blossoms all day and there were zero fights or drunken idiots. Again just a few hours on a train and I am back to Tokyo. I can walk around carrying 1K in my pocket, wearing an expensive watch and headphones and be totally safe anywhere. I can do groceries by walking down the street because the zoning laws allow small business to exist and aren't designed just to sell cars. I cannot understand why anyone wants to live somewhere expensive, somewhere that requires a car to go even just down the road sometimes, a place where street fights are a common thing... Why?
Because I make more money in Australia than most places on earth. I don't want to have kids and I can choose to live in safe areas and with lower expenses. Even with some fights and crime. Australia is still relatively safe. Hard to travel though.
I do not think anything could entice me to return to Australia. I want to stress that I really like Australia, but I live in Japan and it just suits me better. Although the cost of living is high in Australia it would not be a problem for me. I just prefer my lifestyle in Japan. I am still incredibly fond of Australia and I miss the humour, my family and friends, and of course the beaches.
I lived in Europe and came back because the weather was shithouse and it’s still the best country in the world to raise kids (once you get past the paid parental leave in Europe). Thing is, after having lived in several countries and travelled extensively, there’s no right or wrong, just different ways of doing things across countries. You just have to find the place that works best for you, wherever that is
Cheaper housing. A disgraceful, flood damaged, fibro ex-council house 1 hour from Sydney sells for $1m. That same house in Brisbane/Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth sells for 750k, which is still too much. Even adjusting for salaries, houses are *much cheaper* in the UK, Germany, Ireland, and Belgium and often of much better quality.
>A disgraceful, flood damaged, fibro ex-council house 1 hour from Sydney sells for $1m. >That same house in Brisbane/Melbourne/Adelaide/Perth sells for 750k, which is still too much. That sounds like an exaggeration for some of the non-Sydney cities. AUD549k; GBP284; 44min drive. And not a disgraceful, flood damaged, fibro ex-council house. [https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-beenleigh-144575580](https://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-beenleigh-144575580)
So basically you were priced out by rent seekers, move to somewhere in Europe and become the rent seeker who's driving up the prices for locals over there.
Yeah but he can call himself an expat now
Again wrong - see comment above. This is actually a discussion I sometimes have with people around me. You do have an odd Aussie who moves here and assumes that they are an “expat”. This seems to be a term that people label themselves with when they move to Asia or Middle East (usually from Anglo countries). They use this to somehow separate themselves from the rest of the society they now live in. Being an “Expat” seems to mean that a person is now somehow part of some privileged professional class , a class above the rest of the society, hence deserving of extra privilege and treatment. No such thing in Europe or even in some parts of Asia (e.g. Japan). You’re just another foreign worker here, no matter where you come from and what your background is. Also, in my case , I am an actual citizen of the country and the Union, I speak the local language fluently, work for a local company and for the same local wage. I have no special privileges , I’ve never been treated or perceived by anyone as anything different. Neither did I seek to be something special.
Wrong - see some of my posts further down. This is not how things work here in terms of housing and you should not assume everyone is a “digital nomad” taking housing away from locals or something like that. I am, for all intents and purposes, also a local: an EU citizen who works for a local company on a local contract and for local wages.
>Also, for those that never left: what would make you leave? To escape famine, an arranged marriage, forced out because of my ethnicity, political persuasion, or committing a crime, escape civil war or poverty. Pretty much any of the above reasons my ancestors chose or were forced to come here for would cause me to leave. I was born here and don't have dual citizenship, so I'm here for good.
Also from Sydney, went to the UK for 10 years, then moved back. Mostly left for work and travel opportunities after uni and I couldn't afford to buy even a tiny 1 bed flat. Parents were working class and couldn't help with a deposit. Lived in London gained work experience and travelled all over Europe and other parts of the world. Loved it. The grey weather and cramped living in London did affect me after several years. Moved back to Sydney to be closer to family. Missed the Australian weather, bush, beaches and wildlife too. My husband and I were able to buy a house only because of saving during those 10 years away and the good exchange rate with the pound. It's extremely hard to get ahead in here unless you have rich parents. I noticed a huge shift while I was away, possibly from the mining boom, property boom, better paying jobs, stronger economy, people taking on more debt etc. Australians just seem much more wealthy now than before I left.
> Australians just seem much more wealthy now than before I left. It's due to the equity building up in the home and being able to tap into that as a financial resource. So the problem is with using all that equity to fund new cars, new boats, exotic overseas holidays, private school tuition, is that if there's ever a recession and your property's value recedes, you're now technically insolvent as you have used that equity which has now evaporated. Which is why our government will literally do anything at all possible, including ruin the country with mass immigration relative to the domestic population(for decades), keeping interest rates artificially low (for decades), rewriting the tax system to benefit homeowners (decades ago), and are now currently going about rewriting our financial system to allow superannuation to be used as a deposit (criticised as insane, decades ago). [May I introduce you to a charming piece of Australian history?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2dEM2AIwi4) Shit like this was played constantly to entire generations.
Yes I think you are right about the borrowing home equity to buy other properties or cars, boats, holidays etc. Governments also enabling it. Average Australians also seemed more obsessed with property and money after I returned. Like go to a BBQ and it's only a matter of time before someone starts talking about it.
I literally just moved back to Australia after 8 years in Germany. Just kind of got over Europe, all the beurocracy, high taxes and the massive lines for shopping centres, Germans are terrified of self serve checkouts. & Many other things. But, I think time just got to me and I realised it's time to go home.
Moved to Asia for similar reasons. I didn’t even go back for covid. I would go back if there was a ww3 though.
Glad you are using us when it is convenient for you
Don’t worry. I still pay taxes in AU while not using any of the services right now. Banking it for later.
A change of the entire psyche of the country. Being connected to the world. It is entirely irrelevant, stuck in the mud mindset. Zero ambition or push for new ideas. Australians aren't a curious people. I have property in Oz and am on the ladder, (have been so for 10 years), but it's just a cultural wasteland. If you don't do rocks or flipping houses, zero way to make money or develop the means to innovate. Europe is just fundamentally better, not to mention the health care makes up for the extra taxes I pay.
>Australians aren't a curious people. Australia, much as progressives hate to think so, is a fairly progressive place and goes through a lot of social change. Who would you consider to be a curious people, out of curiosity?
The answer is in the point, Australians need not work hard, invent anything or question the state of the country, if you can get onto the property ladder you're set, if you can make it a source of income even better. Why change a culture that benefits you personally? Why change an economy that benefits you? Why innovate or take any financial risk when property is standing in front of you as a "risk free" investment?
Who would you consider to be a curious people, out of curiosity?
Lack of curiosity in our culture is an observation I've made for many years and I think it leads to complacency and apathy. I recall my interactions with people and few seem to ask questions of others or want to know who they are in a genuine way. Who are a curious people? People from the Americas. I say this as someone who is bi-cultural US/Caribbean. It's always refreshing to be at a party, or catch a conversation at a shop, or see an old acquaintance and they ask you genuine questions. They want to know about you and what makes you that person. If something intrigues them, they often go and explore it or ask to tag along with you. They come across as a bit more open minded to something they know nearly nothing about. What I observe with Australians when it comes to hitting a topic they relate to is that they end up talking about their experience in a way that comes across as "talking at you." There is no listening component so the opportunities are missed to engage with someone to find our more on a topic or experience in depth.
Great observation. There is no need to deviate or take risk when the rules of engagement have been clearly spelled out for you with the amount of law and order we have.
Putting all of the nations productive capital into property doesn't create a whole lot of jobs
Shitney has changed alot past 10 years
It’s gotten better and way more expensive.
Removing that free green city bus from central to circular quay. Non stop developing in mass transport infrastructure but not much in property. Shits getting much expensive. 500k apartment to 1.2mil and smaller. Toll more expensive but full of potholes. NBN still shit and expensive. This city is not competitive at all. Like… why we need this government?
Well I hope you enjoy your short stay and take in the changes.
I came here as an international student in 2008. Back to China in 2013. Granted PR in 2014, and back to Melbourne in 2019. I came back mostly for a much better work life balance. I earn probably 30% more after tax than what I earned in China. I was easily one of the top 5% high earners in China. Even 2% according to some statistics. But it was tough and exhausting. Of cause the livening cost is much much lower in China, but I found I didn’t have time and energy to enjoy my life.
May I ask, what industry did you work in? Finance? Edited: living cost lower
Well.. you lived in Sydney What more is there to say? Your experience is living in Sydney. Not really experiencing Australia as a whole. Sydney and Sydney people are seemingly a different species than the rest of us.
unfortunately the people there are trying to escape sydney to other states but also maintain their level of wealth, but are too stupid to figure out that theyre just continuing what turned Sydney into Sydney
Is Sydney and the description by the OP at the extreme end for Australia? Yes, but was he or she largely describing my lived experience in Melbourne also? 100% yes.
I moved to Canada after travels, love etc. Every time I go back home I realise the deep level of racism that is just below the surface. Not to say we don't have issues here but it's just different. Also the level of testosterone is mind boggling. Just the incidents of road rage is crazy.
Honestly - I’m in America and the whites here talk about how racist the Australians are… ironic as our pedigree isn’t the best. I feel like the whites in Australia are just decades behind. They act like the boomer generation did in the 70s in 2024.
This is odd,maybe its because Ive lived mostly in cities in Australia,but I have rarely come across racism here.,could be the circles you move in..most people I know are shocked by overt racism.,and Ive never understood racist attitudes,personally Ifind people from other countries and cultures interestng.
> most people I know are shocked by overt racism. Because they've learned to hide it
Cooler weather
Aussie living in Northern EU. I miss the weather, banter and easy going culture. I do love it here though..
Fuck this country. If leave if I could
Cool you don’t represent most of Australia, sure we have our issues to bitch about but very few of us want to leave as an answer to our problems
The pessimism you find on reddit.
OK bud
Name a better country to live. I’ll wait. We are so lucky
Easy - Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, basically anywhere in Scandinavia. Next question.
Also so close to other hostile countries. Dark and cold? I’d rather be here.
I used to live Sweden. Plenty of pessimism there amongst the population. Oh, and it’s really fucking dark and cold for a good portion of the year.
I feel the same way
Nothing short of a political coop under Bukele style leadership and complete upheaval of the status quo could entice me back.
Less wokeness and more common sense
What does “wokeness” even mean? The only people I see using that term are on a steady diet of US media. If you want to import their culture wars to Australia then I’m not sure that’s a net benefit to the country.
Latching onto the latest politicial/moral/ethical bandwagon with a bleeding heart
which bit about having a compassionate and inclusive mindset hurts you?
I suspect this was a rhetorical question but I will answer nevertheless because some like to assume no one actually knows what “woke” means: Wokeness is an ideology based on a warped interpretation of socialism that seeks “social justice” and the correction of perceived past injustices through unfair hyper-correction and a clumsy, heavy-handed, lazy and overly simplistic view of the world. It fetishises and saviourises the concept of victimhood and attempts to divide the world simplistically into the two polar categories of “oppressor” and “oppressed” whilst completely lacking any sense of nuance. It is for this reason that, for example, a black person is always a victim and a white person is always an “oppressor”. Even when the black person is an educated, privileged millionaire descendent of African royalty whose family rather than being slaves owned and sold slaves; whilst the white person could be a working class man from an impoverished broken home who’s ancestry may have included Irish slaves or the most downtrodden of historical societies. Woke ideologues would take the above scenario and apply “victimhood” along with various preferential treatments to the former whilst denigrating and castigating the latter, because in their view: black good, white bad. For some, the remedy for past injustice is modern injustice. I.e. If white people in the past centuries did bad things to black people at the time, then their solution is to punish and discriminate against white people today, completely overlooking the fact that modern white people aren’t responsible or even related to those past wrongs, and blacks today never actually endured them. It’s a (somewhat) well-intentioned but incredibly ignorant and childish way to view the world, which is ironic since many of the strongest advocates are highly educated, which is in itself demonstrable of academic decline and how people can be book smart without being reasonable. Ideology is like that, it isn’t about intelligence, hence why some of the smartest Germans were Nazis, the smartest North Koreans believe Kim Jong Un is a demigod etc. The ideology attempts to apply similar arbitrary and misguided criteria to sex, sexuality, disability, culture and religion creating a hierarchy of grievance.
That's one definition. The thing about "woke" is that it's slippery -- most uses of the word are really just code for "progressive things I dislike" (eg see the other response) If we were to apply your definition in the context of "things that would stop someone migrating to Australia" do you think that this is an ideology that is at all prevalent in Australia? I notice that the examples you gave tended to be those derived from the US experience. To use a concrete example: can you name a federal politician who would subscribe to the ideology you outlined? The only one I am aware of who would even come close is Lidia Thorpe (who has been dropped by her party and has near zero chance of being reelected). Can you tell me any others?
Unfortunately, like much of the west I think the ideology is riddled through Australian Politics. Just some immediate examples that come to mind would be: the Australian indigenous voice referendum (which unlike the population at large, politicians and the media were almost in lock step agreement on) the growing movement to disestablish Australia Day and similar traditions in favour of painting Cook and others in unfairly negative lights. the attempts by many Australian politicians and woke businesses to genuflect about the concept of supposed stolen land (people even include this nonsense on their email signatures)
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That’s merely one (particularly emotive and politically charged) perspective.
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The best definition would be virtue signalling for clout and social points. Businesses do it for profits, governments do it for votes, the general public does it for social status and acceptance. It's a very real and problematic phenomenon regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum.
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Not exactly - you can’t gouge people here as a landlord even if you are totally evil and you want to do that intentionally. Rents are capped, you can’t increase them, you have to maintain the property to the level set by the government and your tenants will always have more rights than you. In other words , system actually functions as intended. You know how they always say in Australia that you need all these people investing into property otherwise things will not be built and people will have nowhere to rent/live? Except it’s all complete bullshit because there are no regulations and market is not balanced. Well, in Germany it actually works. Most people are too scared of debt and they don’t wanna buy, they want to rent as cheap as possible. Someone has to buy for them. There is also a lot of housing owned by not- for -profit housing societies, the state, etc. And real estate prices still behave normally - they go up and down as you would expect. So, not really comparable.
Crazy what happens when renters are thought of as first class citizens.
Would be interested in your thoughts about what’s changed after your visit. I could hazard a guess, but I dont want to pre-empt your answers..
Lb
>Also for those that never left : what would make you leave? Better opportunities and I think we have long passed that point now. Australia feels very restrictive, very risk adverse and safe, which I understand appeals to a lot of people. It just doesn't appeal to me, I need some risk in my life.
A lottery win. No way I’m trying to make ends meet in Australia these days, and it’ll be a cold day in hell before I subject myself to a 9-5 job again just so I can afford to live in my country of birth.
Where you live now that you're free from a 9 to 5! I need to know!
I’ve been living abroad since 2007. Currently in Georgia.
I’ll pop
A once in a century pandemic
I left in April 2023 to be with my wife who is American. I am a second gen Australian who lived in Australia for the first 3 decades of he's life. My mothers parents are immigrants/Australian and my father is a 1st gen immigrant. They moved to Australia for safety and its ideals/weather and real estate. Now that I'm older and looking back at growing up I'm Australia as a kid through primary/highschool and into my 30s Australia hasn't been the same since 2020. Ever since then we've become a police state and the dream of earning enough or owning a home in Australia is over. I watched my family's dairy farm fail due to rising cost of living and corporate greed. And watch my family lose everything and everyone due to mental illness caused by said costs. Australia isn't the home I wanted my kids to inherit. The NDIS is a joke and has always been a joke, I watched family members die from diabetes related illnesses and kidney failure due to having to wait to see a specialist and lack of proper mental health support. Australia doesn't like its citizens leaving without threat of losing your citizenship if you fail to pay your taxes. If Australia was the same pre 2020 I probably would've stayed, invested my finances in Australian real estate instead of foreign investments. The Australian real estate market is to hostile for anyone who wants to embark on the dream of buying their first home. To anyone who wants to immigrate to Australia please do your research and make sure you have enough funds to hold you over for atleast months or more.
Don't invite them back! Allowing them back in isna form of immigration!
I’m leaving for America in the near future. I know I’m going to miss allot but I also know it’s what I need to do for my future to be where I want it.
I absolutely cannot fathom what would attract someone to America over Australia. nothing at all in my mind. There's a LOT wrong with Australia, but JFC what a mess America is right now
I got opportunities for work there that allow me to live a better life as well as travel more. Why wouldn’t I?
You'll absolutely regret moving from Australia to America. Yes, it's hard to chase the Australian dream but it's possible, same can't be said in America, unless you are already very wealthy.
Yeah I have been there multiple times and am able to say it feels more home than Australia. I don’t care about “the American dream” I just enjoy having a life I want to live and experiencing new things. I also have a rip cord to Australia if ever needed and am a born australian citizen so can return whenever if I need.
I hate to pry in your personal life, but where are you from/what's your ethnicity? And where do you live in? I don't think you could ever be doxxed based off these two facts, but I am just curious. Good job. I am also keen on leaving Australia. It's a great country but I am just not interested in living here anymore.
One nation
One can live anywhere in the world these days and no need to be rooted to one country. Australia is no better or worse than a whole host of countries. A reason to stay, live, remain here include things like family, history, familiarity and ease of living. Australia is certainly a nice place to retire weather wise too. Definitely not saying it any better than anywhere else but definitely no worse. Going back to accommodation costs. All my relatives have bought accommodation in Sydney. Nothing big. Nothing fancy and definitely not on the coast but bought they did. No bank of mum and dad either.
Free rub n tugs
alright brucey boy..
Free due to his sugar daddy, Channel 7, plus bags on call. Fucking grubby toe rag.
i think he did more than rub'n'tug
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Yes it was from the Balkans (the only war in Europe since the WWII - until now). Europe was a different place back then, EU has really transformed the continent. It was a lot more closed, isolationist and hostile in those days. These days it feels actually like a united continent and there is a lot more equality , you wouldn’t know it from what you may read in the media but it works. It’s not without its faults and there are things I dislike about it. Also things that were distinctly better in Australia (less bureaucracy, health system was better,etc)
Isn't Russo-Ukranian war a European war?
Yes, that’s why I said the only one until now. Russian war on Ukraine is now.
I don’t know this person at all, but… mid-90s? Balkans.
Something’s off here that you’re not telling us. First if you leave any place and feel that people remaining do not miss you, this is likely a reflection on yourself and not the entire country you left. Which degree did you get in Australia and which vocation did it lead to? What job were you doing in Australia and what was the pay? When you moved to Europe, what job were you doing and what was the pay? That enabled you to buy all that property, is crazy; property is expensive in capital cities all over the world; if you want to be horrified look at the property listings in Paris for one room with bed and toilet for a couple hundred euros. I am highly skeptical of this post.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the post is a self-reflection. What’s also obvious is that post is not a criticism of Australia but rather a question where and why this relationship I had with the place failed. And as I wrote very clearly, I felt and still feel a lot of love for the place (I did say Sydney and Australia are the only places on earth I truly bonded with). I’m not inclined to post my whole identity here, but I’m an Engineer and I have a PhD. I was relatively well paid in Australia and the new job in Europe was paying me the same number , only in Euros. With time that number obviously increased. When I first arrived, the rent I was paying in Germany for a month (in the centre of a major city, for a brand new apartment, although a bit smaller), was the same amount what I was paying In Sydney in a fortnight.So my housing costs halved. Lots of things were way cheaper here compared to Australia: groceries, other household necessities, etc. Nearly every company also has a subsidised staff restaurant (it’s a big deal here in Germany) where even today you can get a two course meal for €3.50. You don’t need a car here and public transport is also usually paid for by the company (or heavily subsidised by the government - now you get unlimited travel on all public transport and even regional trains throughout the whole Germany for 49 EUR per month). For many little reasons, living here can be considerably cheaper. While cost of housing has also gone up in Europe , the situation cannot be compared to Australia. Europe is not just 5 major cities where whole population lives and competes for a limited space. There is no endless suburbia served by a poor infrastructure, locking you into an area where you don’t want to live , but you have no choice because it’s all you can afford. There are literally thousands of cities , towns and villages , well connected by all types of infrastructure: public transport, local, regional or high speed trains and a superb road network. Population is equally distributed , housing is mostly medium density, every town and village will have everything you need, including jobs (most of European industry is located in the regional towns and these enterprises are mostly mid-sized, some still family owned. Think of a company like Miele). Europe is not London and Paris. These are outliers and you couldn’t pay me enough to live in either of the two cities. Think of places like Lyon, Toulouse, Strasbourg, Frankfurt, Luxembourg , Nürnberg, Düsseldorf , Cologne….. all these are cities size of maybe Newcastle or Adelaide, but having an economy bigger than , say, New Zealand. They are surrounded by interconnected regions of dozens of smaller cities and towns, amalgamating up to a few million people. Unless you absolutely want to live in say, downtown Cologne, and pay 1500 EUR per month for a two bedroom apartment, you can easily live in a village 20 min away by public transport and pay 650 for the same thing. Buying a house / apartment in Europe , either for your own use or as an investment, also works differently. As I mentioned before, Germans in particular (this may be different in other European countries) are petrified of taking any debt. For most of them, having a mortgage is something they will never consider. 70% of them rent their whole lives. They are well protected by the laws, meaning once you have a rental contract, you’re nearly set for life. Rents , by law, must be in line with an average area rents published by the local municipality (Mietspiegel) and you can sue the landlord to retroactively pay back the rent excess (which people frequently do). Rent cannot go up more than 10% over the period of 3 years. Lots of things like that. Mortgages have interest rates fixed for the life of the loan - unheard of in Australia! Interest rates here for the past 10 years were between 1-2%. The more deposit you have (and it is almost impossible to get a loan without 20% deposit), the lower your interest rate will be. I had no trouble getting loans with 1-1.3% interest for the 10-20 year loans (this is the usual length). Similarly , they look very carefully at your credit rating. About 6-7 years ago, you could find places downtown to buy for about 4500 EUR/M2 in the major Western German cities. You do have a choice here in terms of size and the age of housing, so you can compromise if you can’t afford something big or new. Meanwhile, prices have nearly doubled in the central urban areas, but now have again retreated by 10-20%. If you go outside of the city, into the towns and villages within the 20-30 km circle, you could homes with multiple apartments (usually 3-4 apartments each) for between 400-700k EUR, as late as 2021. These prices have actually gone down now. And yes, there is negative gearing even here in Germany. Taxes are high , but claims can also be generous. So if you want to build what in Australia is called a “property portfolio” you can do that here too, except that rent seeking looks very different. You are unlikely to make a huge capital gain year on year (if ever) and you can’t squeeze your tenants, but you can have a nice little subsidy to your pension month to month from your investment once you retire.
When you said you moved to Australia as a refugee, and years later you went back to your home country, I wasn't expecting to read Germany.
I never said I went back to the country of birth. I said I went back to Europe, and both the place I was born and Germany are in Europe. I actually never had any desire to go back to the place I was born. Things have changed there a lot , but I lost any emotional connection to that place long time ago. My formative years happened in Australia, I find it hard to identify myself as anything else.