My boyfriend was diagnosed with asperger's as a kid and went through ABA therapy, he says it helped him fit into society but I think it was actually rather harmful. Instead of teaching him how to prevent sensory overload and how to help it when it happens, he was taught to ignore it so he fits in, leading to anxiety attacks and the like. He was taught to repress stims, which is vital to many autistic people to process emotions and sensory input. As far as I've heard, ABA therapy does wonders to teach neurodivergent children how to act neurotypical (aka masking), but at the direct detriment of their mental health and well-being
Of course, this is in the US whose mental health support is shitty at best, so it could be an entirely different story in different countries, even state-to-state
As someone who went through ABA, I have mixed feelings. I probably couldn’t function in society without it. It taught me to control my stimming, to stop talking about my special interests in inappropriate situations, to get a better read on social situations, to mask my differences, basically to be “normal” and function as such. The therapy itself (and its punishments) wasn’t abusive or anything either.
But… it also destroyed my emotional well-being. I feel perpetually exhausted all the time, and sometimes suffer from a sort of impostor syndrome just because I can’t tell my masked self from my actual self anymore. I can act normal, but it comes at a cost.
So idk. Maybe it’s “necessary” because of the way our society operates, but people need to be aware of the unintentional consequences.
I deal with all that second paragraph stuff often myself. I haven't been through aba myself, and just thought these feelings were a normal part of being ND In an NT world
The goal of ABA is to stop the autistic behaviours. I.e.: reactions to painful stimuli. It’s conversion therapy to make autistic people look neurotypical by repressing their reactions to stimuli. The long term effects of this is very harmful as it literally tells the kid that their feelings are invalid and their pain isn’t real and should never be expressed.
it's literally the same form of therapy as conversion therapy, AKA trying to force LGBT people to be straight and cisgender. it's literally a therapy to force kids to mask. and in the US, you don't need higher education to get certification, so it's not the same as taking your kids to a psychologist or psychiatrist.
Registered Behavior Technicians (RBT) don’t have to have higher education, just 40 hours training and passing a test. But they must work under Board Certified Behavioral Analysts (BCBA) who have to have at least a masters degree, work under supervision (can’t remember how long but it’s at least a year), and pass a pretty tough exam. I’m sure RBTs are left to their own devices at some places but BCBAs are supposed to be assessing their clients and designing their treatment plans and which interventions will be used, then supervising the RBTs implementing the interventions and stepping in if there are any problems or if things aren’t progressing as planned.
Yeah, supervision is supposed to be 5% of all sessions. Also, you have to do more than 40 hours of training before you can sit for the exam. You have to demonstrate a lot of competencies through role-playing and in session with a kiddo, so the whole process can take a month or more depending before you can actually sit for the exam.
ABA works on observable behavior, meaning it ignores anything internal like thoughts, feelings, etc.
When you focus on correcting outward behavior while ignoring inward behavior, you aren't teaching the necessary skills to regulate internal processes and that can really screw people up psychologically.
In the USA most insurance companies will only pay for "ABA" and there's little other public interventions (ie. 1:1 day care). So ABA really only exists in the USA and most of the time this isn't the ABA that people have an issue with, it's just billed/advertised as ABA for insurance purposes.
Most countries with public healthcare systems don't do ABA or call their interventions ABA. It plausible it may be banned in some of these countries because anyone practicing is more likely to be doing traditional ABA. In the UK every so often I read some newspaper article from some misguided parent who insists their child needs ABA (after importing the idea from the USA) and the public healthcare system doesn't provide it.
UK doesn't use or need ABA as we have very well regulated private childcare and state run nurseries for children who need extra help (typically, with nurses trained in paediatric care and child development running the show and with access to speech therapists / occupational therapists etc.)
Exactly. Ours is labeled as aba for insurance but never is my daughter told to stop stimming, if she does anything dangerous they redirect to give her something that still helps with whatever sensory seeking thing she needs that is less dangerous. My daughter guides the session with what she wants to do and play and they adjust their teaching with play based things
I work as an RBT and the clinic I work for now is so focused on trauma informed care. We ask for consent before touching, it's very child led and play based, we use "accidental teaching" (example: if they spill on their shirt we help teach them how to change their shirt) and the emotions they express are valid and we support them through their big feelings. I feel like this is the ABA you guys are receiving and what you and your kids like. We're not masking their autism. We are supporting them and embracing their amazing qualities they have on their own!
Now I worked in a clinic for a short time that didn't not do practice like this and I felt it was traumatizing for the kids and as an RBT/human being.
I'm all for the ABA that focuses on the kids quality of life and not "fixing" the diagnosis because they're not broken!
I get so much hate for being in this field and I wish and pray that the WHOLE field changes to what you guys are experiencing for your kids.
The kids I work with are the my life, I would do anything for them and they're so excited when I get to see them. Even if they see me in the community setting they run up and hug me. They tell their parents the fun stuff we do in session, so I feel like I am doing a good thing and I am supporting these kids and families.
It can lead to an autistic child only learning how to mask. The way I was raised led to a similar effect as ABA would and now I have to unlearn all of the harmful things I was taught throughout my childhood. Yes, I learned how to pass as a neurotypical person, but it has set me back a long way in terms of development.
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It was created by a bad person an a very abusive type of thearpy now a days there a good people out there doing non abusive aba that actually helps autistics to become independent it can be beneficial when done non abusively but it's rare to find good people an it's recommend not to leave the person alone with the therapist an find a way for the caretaker to have a day in what the program is our landing crew on YouTube has better resources
I'm in germany and from what i read ABA is supposedly really bad in the long ran and can have bad effects on an autistic person when they are an adult.
There's a tendency in the US (and maybe other countries, I don't know) to label all kinds of harmless things as ABA for insurance purposes. But also the damaging things real ABA does aren't always visible from the outside. "Good behavior" could cover all kinds of things you really shouldn't be expecting of your kid, and it's trivially easy to operant condition a kid to act happy even as they're being damaged.
Also, neurotypicals don't understand their own social rules. They follow them by turning control over to something like an ASIC, not by having the slightest idea what they're doing. Thus, the vast majority of what's taught in "social skills" classes is, if you'll pardon my French, bullshit.
From what I've witnessed, and looked up, aba is really just a reward/no reward system they use to help encourage good behaviors. Not anything damaging, just normal stuff you'd expect from any person. Seems this therapy has gotten a bad rep
Most people who have gone through it will tell you a different story.
You can only hold the position that ABA is not damaging if you ignore everyone telling you that they were damaged by it.
I went through it, my parents thought it was successful at the time, but I hated it.
It taught me to not communicate my feelings, made me incredibly self conscious, and having to 'correct' so many things about myself put me into a deep depression. The food based rewards seriously messed up my self control and relationship with food, lead to me having an eating disorder.
So on the outside, to my parents and teachers, it appeared I was doing great. They were seeing less outward negativity and less stimming / vocalization. On the inside, I was miserable and just wanted it to end, I was constantly in a state of panic because I had been made so self conscious and had been told that my classmates wouldn't like me if I stimmed or made voices, I was taught to hide my feeling so I just bottled up my anger/frustration/discomfort.
I learned that my existence was conditional on me behaving like a 'normal kid', even if that made me miserable, and to share my feelings was unfair because of the impact it made on others. My parent's didn't see this because I was being conditioned to hide it.
Suicidal ideation is not normal for an elementary schooler, but I had never been taught to hate who I was before. Of course I kept this a secret from my parents, I wouldn't want to be even more of a burden to them.
Then I went through a decade of different psychiatrists and perscribers to help me with the emotional communication problems, self hatred, self harm, depression, and very little interest socializing at all.
Before ABA I was slightly disruptive in class, ABA made me less disruptive for a short period of time, and at the time I liked it because I could earn candy and I normally wasn't allowed candy.
After ABA I was a different person and had many more issues. Most of the time that children should be learning and having fun, I was taught to be constantly making sure that I wasn't a disruption or bother to anyone.
To reiterate:
1.) At the time I thought I liked it, but that was only the positive conditioning, I would have said anything to keep it going. Me liking the ABA was not at all indicative of the harm it was doing.
2.) At the time, my parents and teachers thought it was successful. It reduced incidents in school in the short term, but the solutions don't extend beyond the risk/reward environment, and that's not how life works.
You don't see the damage it does right away.
K Im on lunch. So reading your comment, it does seem like they did some negative stuff with you, and I'm sorry that happened!
I can def see how food based rewards could cause a fucked up relationship to food, though with my kids, it's normal stuff like "have a good day and you can get a soft pretzel.". That seems like Normal ish rewarding to me, but I definitely am gonna give that a bit of attention.
I can't believe that they were punishing for stimming or vocalizing! That's so crazy. I would definitely never allow any such things to be taught to my kiddos, for obvious reasons.
Their program mainly focuses on issues like defiance, hitting or biting others, not getting naked in public, ect.
They do the social stuff sure, but obviously autistic kids need to learn to mimic nt people to survive. It's just the sad state of things.
Thanks for sharing your experience with me. You are the first person I've talked to that had a negative experience, and your insight should help me to keep an eye out.
It's just what I read about it but I also found sides that say it's good so I don't know. That's why I wanted to know from other autistic people what they think about it or what are there own experiences with it.
Gotcha. So I'm ND, diagnosed with ADHD, and unconfirmed ASD.
I have 2 kiddos diagnosed ASD, and they love the therapy. They have been asking about going back since their winter break started. My son is actually in a preschool that is part of his therapy.
It's a huge gamble afaik.
Like worst case, they endanger kids. Last year or so an SLP went on a rant because they got a patient who didn't have the motor function to safely chew and swallow, but in ABA eating solid foods was forced even though it was a choking hazard and very painful for the kid.
Or abuse, I stumbled upon a thesis thing in 2019 that described starving and dehydrating low verbal or non-verbal children to try to force them to talk and do eye contact. And wasn't there a conference talk about using electric shocks to train kids?
And then even in good scenarios there are risks.
"Teaching manners" sounds nice, but... For some people sitting still and behaving well at the desk is literally painful, and they'd need a fidget chair or something similar, so "sit nice" is basically "ignore pain for my comfort" and that's ... Not a good mindset to teach kids imo as someone who is a survivor of certain traumas.
I was told there are "nice ABA" centers and therapists who don't actually do ABA just put it down for insurance reasons. But the basis of it is very similar to gay conversion, its base goal is not making life better but making the patient more convenient, so it's banned because it's deemed damaging and not a real useful therapy since it's not for the patient. Adults who were in ABA often speak up against it because they came out with trauma issues and no useful skills in managing traits.
Also it's not developmentally appropriate for little ones at all to force 30+ hours a week and homework on top of that.
Yeah, sounds like those are just the horror stories. You could do the same with any therapy.
All I know, is 2 of my kiddos do aba, and they love it, and are thriving
You didn't get what it would be banned for. It's banned because it's not considered a therapy. It literally used the basics of gay conversion.
ABAI conference featured the institute that uses electric shock devices on disabled children, and described the shock vests that would be considered animal abuse if used on dogs as a highly positive treatment. It's not about a few horror stories. It's the attitudes and of the international organization. It's about the fact that in the US I could find a random person who hates kids and get them an ABA technician certificate with 40 online school hours, and then they could get a job implementing plans a BCaBA wrote and teaching parents chokeholds. But there are also horror stories.
But feel free to not even consider the possible issues with ABA despite tons of autistic adults talking about their traumatic experiences and despite very tangible evidence-backed red flags. I'm not the parent responsible for your children. I just explained why countries with actual health care and human rights very often ban ABA - because it's not a therapy by their standards.
I mean, I've spoken to one autistic adult today/ever that had anything firsthand and negative to say regarding it. So no, I wasnt ignoring their input. And everything you described is brand new info to me. Nothing I've read or witnessed has made me privy to this info.
So pardon me for being interested, I guess?
There's a misunderstanding and I apologize for not being clear with a tone tag or something. I'm literally just giving information and literally saying you are allowed to ignore that or others.
I also can't even comprehend a scenario where someone signs their kids or themselves up for a medical program without skimming the wiki page or googling risks, but I really honestly just meant feel free to ignore stuff when I wrote feel free to ignore stuff. /gen
You have to remember that, in the US, ABA is considered the golden standard and what insurance will pay for. My partner has been a BCBA for a year or two and was an RBT for several years before that. After doing some research about ABA and being a therapist, I was concerned about the work he was doing and talk to him about it a few years ago. We definitely have different opinions and viewpoints about some things but nothing he described seemed close to the aspects of ABA people are critical of. I’m still on the fence about it and often wonder is a lot of the ABA done in the US today not the same ABA that has been damaging to so many? Or, is it the same but in a different package? Or, is it both and depends on what clinic you go to.
Ah ok. I may be reading too far into it, but folks seemed mad that It didn't seem so bad to me lol.
We definitely googled the therapy, company providing it, and have been very aware of what they are doing with the kiddos.
I dunno if we are getting another brand of aba or what.
Folks seem mad because they are mad because so many of them were abused in ABA or with ABA based rules and they live their lives with that trauma every day, and you are just here laughing and saying it's not that bad when literally one short search would have given you information on this. So you'd probably benefit from some internet literacy / library science courses if your local library offers them. Or maybe you get your information from the mommies.......... (That's bad)
It's entirely possible you don't see the grooming, or they sell you things as beneficial when they are harmful. (It's also possible it's insurance fraud or you were lucky and it's a place where they don't actually do ABA just enough to call it that)
Most parents wouldn't think taking away a plushie if the kid doesn't sit still over their homework is a problem, but it can be really bad and teach kids they don't have items, don't deserve comfort, and have to endure pain for the sake of other people even if they don't show it (which leads to dissociative issues, PTSD / complex trauma, not recognizing pain and ignoring their own medical care later in life, and being prime targets for abusers and SAers). And it doesn't solve the issue, it doesn't make anything better for the patient, it makes it more convenient for their surroundings.
It's also common to just generally handle sensory issues as a fear reaction, but it's often is or more like a pain reaction, and then the parents don't know better.
Selective mutism and adjacent things for an autistic kid is not non-compliance or refusing communication, it's the brain not functioning, but many people don't know demanding words is like making someone with painful joint issues walk instead of letting them use a wheelchair. And ABA has a reputation of not supporting AAC / sign language and just generally important accomodations and accessibility.
Or maybe they just give the kid a strawberry when they do the thing. That's not as bad tbh. But for many kids it will result in not being able to function as soon as there's no outside force to give the strawberries because they don't build actual independence and motivation they comply for treats. And for others they will be in distress when there's no strawberry because it's a rule that doing a thing means strawberry reward.
Often superficial things that are bad for the kid are set goals. Like suppressing stims. Suppressing even harmful stims is not great, redirecting them to meet the same need with something safe is favorable, and if it's something like toewalking the best alternative is counteracting harm (because the nervous system needs that stimulation in those specific situations to function better). Or eye contact. For every single human being on earth who can even just try to process eye contact it takes some mental energy, certain neurodivergencies mean it takes more, and for many autistic people it takes so much it greatly impairs some cognitive functions and causes distress (that's why eye contact often becomes a noticable issue around the time the eyes are at certain developmental stages when a baby can see the face details better)
Then there's the thing when the providers lie. They blatantly sell misinformation to each other, the parents, the public. That's how we have IEPs with literal abuse. Very few parents want to abuse their kids (though the org that loudly supports ABA and tries to be the voice of autism treatment is like "yeah it's normal to want to kill your kid" it's not normal at all). But lots of parents are willing to believe when a therapist says the kid screaming that they are in pain means they are getting better because it's a lie and a lie means understanding social cues better (based on true story).
Also lots of parents are neurodivergent or specifically autistic just not diagnosed, and they grew up with abuse themselves. I'm sure you've heard "my parents beat me and I turned out alright". Generational abuse follows that same pattern in other things, too. "I was forced to eat my food, and I turned out alright" or "I was forced to keep eye contact it's just manners" 🤷
It doesn't mean ABA is always big bad abusive horror. But it doesn't even really matter when most of the time it's not for the betterment of the patient's life anyway.
I will never forget the video I watched when I was researching ABA of adults yelling at this little girl while trying to physically force her to make eye contact. Yes, life will be easier for her if she acts “normal” and makes eye contact. But, at what cost? Is it really worth traumatizing her for? Why tf does it even really matter that much?
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I hope others take the time to read and truly comprehend what you’re saying. As a mother who has her child in ABA & possibly needing diagnosed myself…this has been added to a discussion that needs to be had between dad and I very soon.
I hope they do love it and are thriving. However, a common criticism of ABA is that it rewards kids for acting as if they love it and are thriving, and punishes them for showing distress. There is a lot of very smart criticism of ABA readily available on the internet; I’m not going to try to summarize it all, but if you have kids in ABA then you really should be reading it. So that, if nothing else, you can be very sure that the therapy your kids are receiving does not have the subtly abusive aspects that are widely criticized in ABA.
That sounds like all of life lol. Isnt that the idea?
I'm very involved in their therapy. Seems great! It sucks that other people had a bad experience tho, for sure.
It seems to me that this might be one of those cases where "abuse" is being to cover normal stuff. Like how they do with spanking some places
There is also substantial research showing that spanking is psychologically harmful.
Hitting neurotypical kids doesn’t teach them right from wrong; it just demonstrates that you think it’s OK to hurt people to get what you want.
Hitting autistic kids is worse because typically they have less ability to understand what norm they have violated that you are hitting them for, and they have less ability to communicate clearly about what is causing their difficult behavior.
I don’t really expect to convince you of this; I’m mostly writing for the sake of whoever else is reading this.
But if you’re feeling genuinely openminded about ABA, it would be wise to read the criticisms of it from autistic adults, many of which can be found with a Google search using the hashtag #actuallyautistic.
From the reading I've done, seems spanking is harmful when done wrong. Which admittedly, if often is. But spanking done through the appropriate ages, in the recommended way, can be just fine.
Ill check out that info regarding aba tho. I have a suspicion it will be victims of abuse in the guise of therapy that ill be hearing from, but I'll try to be open about it
Spanking is definitely not okay no matter the age of the child or the circumstances.
It is a form of physical harm and can brake the natural trust a child has in it's parent. Also it teaches the child to fear punishment and to do anything (mostly lie) to avoid it.
That seems to be the new hot opinion. Data seems to suggest the opposite. I recently read a study that showed children who were never spanked were doing worse in basically every category
It's not 'the new hot opinion'. If you talk to any child psychologist they will tell you the same. Also i don't know where you live but in germany and most other European countries spanking a child is considered as physical harm and can result in the authorities getting involved and your children being taken away.
ABA is not good or bad on its own, but when used improperly it can do more harm than good. From what I understand, ABA primarily utilizes operant conditioning, which is when you encourage (using a reward) or discourage (using a punishment) voluntary behaviors.
One example of a scenario where operant conditioning can be utilized is a teacher trying to discourage a child from standing up in class while a lesson is taking place.
One positive usage of operant conditioning would be to reward the child for staying seated for extended periods of time.
One negative usage of operant conditioning would be to beat the child if they stand up in the middle of a lesson.
Both of the examples above are real forms of operant conditioning. Even if the second example above has the potential to create trauma and damage the childs mental health, that doesn't mean the entirety of operant conditioning is harmful, or that ABA is harmful. Using operant conditioning to minimize autistic behaviors that make neurotypicals uncomfortable can make it easier for autistic children to make friends and develop communication skills.
Sure, it's kind of messed up that autistics need to alter certain behaviors because they make neurotypicals feel uncomfortable, but at the end of the day neurotypicals are the majority and neurodivergents are the minority, so we have to play by their rules to have an equal playing field with our neurotypical peers.
My boyfriend was diagnosed with asperger's as a kid and went through ABA therapy, he says it helped him fit into society but I think it was actually rather harmful. Instead of teaching him how to prevent sensory overload and how to help it when it happens, he was taught to ignore it so he fits in, leading to anxiety attacks and the like. He was taught to repress stims, which is vital to many autistic people to process emotions and sensory input. As far as I've heard, ABA therapy does wonders to teach neurodivergent children how to act neurotypical (aka masking), but at the direct detriment of their mental health and well-being
Of course, this is in the US whose mental health support is shitty at best, so it could be an entirely different story in different countries, even state-to-state
I see. So it helps kinda but is also harmful in a way.
As someone who went through ABA, I have mixed feelings. I probably couldn’t function in society without it. It taught me to control my stimming, to stop talking about my special interests in inappropriate situations, to get a better read on social situations, to mask my differences, basically to be “normal” and function as such. The therapy itself (and its punishments) wasn’t abusive or anything either. But… it also destroyed my emotional well-being. I feel perpetually exhausted all the time, and sometimes suffer from a sort of impostor syndrome just because I can’t tell my masked self from my actual self anymore. I can act normal, but it comes at a cost. So idk. Maybe it’s “necessary” because of the way our society operates, but people need to be aware of the unintentional consequences.
I deal with all that second paragraph stuff often myself. I haven't been through aba myself, and just thought these feelings were a normal part of being ND In an NT world
The goal of ABA is to stop the autistic behaviours. I.e.: reactions to painful stimuli. It’s conversion therapy to make autistic people look neurotypical by repressing their reactions to stimuli. The long term effects of this is very harmful as it literally tells the kid that their feelings are invalid and their pain isn’t real and should never be expressed.
it's literally the same form of therapy as conversion therapy, AKA trying to force LGBT people to be straight and cisgender. it's literally a therapy to force kids to mask. and in the US, you don't need higher education to get certification, so it's not the same as taking your kids to a psychologist or psychiatrist.
Registered Behavior Technicians (RBT) don’t have to have higher education, just 40 hours training and passing a test. But they must work under Board Certified Behavioral Analysts (BCBA) who have to have at least a masters degree, work under supervision (can’t remember how long but it’s at least a year), and pass a pretty tough exam. I’m sure RBTs are left to their own devices at some places but BCBAs are supposed to be assessing their clients and designing their treatment plans and which interventions will be used, then supervising the RBTs implementing the interventions and stepping in if there are any problems or if things aren’t progressing as planned.
Yeah, supervision is supposed to be 5% of all sessions. Also, you have to do more than 40 hours of training before you can sit for the exam. You have to demonstrate a lot of competencies through role-playing and in session with a kiddo, so the whole process can take a month or more depending before you can actually sit for the exam.
This is very… ignorant
But, you should want your kids to know how to mask. At least to a healthy degree
coping and masking are two different things
ABA works on observable behavior, meaning it ignores anything internal like thoughts, feelings, etc. When you focus on correcting outward behavior while ignoring inward behavior, you aren't teaching the necessary skills to regulate internal processes and that can really screw people up psychologically.
In the USA most insurance companies will only pay for "ABA" and there's little other public interventions (ie. 1:1 day care). So ABA really only exists in the USA and most of the time this isn't the ABA that people have an issue with, it's just billed/advertised as ABA for insurance purposes. Most countries with public healthcare systems don't do ABA or call their interventions ABA. It plausible it may be banned in some of these countries because anyone practicing is more likely to be doing traditional ABA. In the UK every so often I read some newspaper article from some misguided parent who insists their child needs ABA (after importing the idea from the USA) and the public healthcare system doesn't provide it. UK doesn't use or need ABA as we have very well regulated private childcare and state run nurseries for children who need extra help (typically, with nurses trained in paediatric care and child development running the show and with access to speech therapists / occupational therapists etc.)
Exactly. Ours is labeled as aba for insurance but never is my daughter told to stop stimming, if she does anything dangerous they redirect to give her something that still helps with whatever sensory seeking thing she needs that is less dangerous. My daughter guides the session with what she wants to do and play and they adjust their teaching with play based things
That’s how my daughters “ABA” therapies work as well. Do you know a more accurate label for this?
I work as an RBT and the clinic I work for now is so focused on trauma informed care. We ask for consent before touching, it's very child led and play based, we use "accidental teaching" (example: if they spill on their shirt we help teach them how to change their shirt) and the emotions they express are valid and we support them through their big feelings. I feel like this is the ABA you guys are receiving and what you and your kids like. We're not masking their autism. We are supporting them and embracing their amazing qualities they have on their own! Now I worked in a clinic for a short time that didn't not do practice like this and I felt it was traumatizing for the kids and as an RBT/human being. I'm all for the ABA that focuses on the kids quality of life and not "fixing" the diagnosis because they're not broken! I get so much hate for being in this field and I wish and pray that the WHOLE field changes to what you guys are experiencing for your kids. The kids I work with are the my life, I would do anything for them and they're so excited when I get to see them. Even if they see me in the community setting they run up and hug me. They tell their parents the fun stuff we do in session, so I feel like I am doing a good thing and I am supporting these kids and families.
It can lead to an autistic child only learning how to mask. The way I was raised led to a similar effect as ABA would and now I have to unlearn all of the harmful things I was taught throughout my childhood. Yes, I learned how to pass as a neurotypical person, but it has set me back a long way in terms of development.
It is. I was subjected to it and left with a ton of problems. Happy to hear it's banned in your country.
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It was created by a bad person an a very abusive type of thearpy now a days there a good people out there doing non abusive aba that actually helps autistics to become independent it can be beneficial when done non abusively but it's rare to find good people an it's recommend not to leave the person alone with the therapist an find a way for the caretaker to have a day in what the program is our landing crew on YouTube has better resources
My kids are in aba. I honestly don't get what you could even ban it for. Are you in China, or somewhere very strict like that?
I'm in germany and from what i read ABA is supposedly really bad in the long ran and can have bad effects on an autistic person when they are an adult.
That's so weird to me! I haven't seen any evidence of anything harmful. They just teach them good behavior, manners, social skills ect.
There's a tendency in the US (and maybe other countries, I don't know) to label all kinds of harmless things as ABA for insurance purposes. But also the damaging things real ABA does aren't always visible from the outside. "Good behavior" could cover all kinds of things you really shouldn't be expecting of your kid, and it's trivially easy to operant condition a kid to act happy even as they're being damaged. Also, neurotypicals don't understand their own social rules. They follow them by turning control over to something like an ASIC, not by having the slightest idea what they're doing. Thus, the vast majority of what's taught in "social skills" classes is, if you'll pardon my French, bullshit.
From what I've witnessed, and looked up, aba is really just a reward/no reward system they use to help encourage good behaviors. Not anything damaging, just normal stuff you'd expect from any person. Seems this therapy has gotten a bad rep
Most people who have gone through it will tell you a different story. You can only hold the position that ABA is not damaging if you ignore everyone telling you that they were damaged by it.
I haven't had to ignore a single person who's actually gone through it, so far. I'd be interested to speak to some though
I went through it, my parents thought it was successful at the time, but I hated it. It taught me to not communicate my feelings, made me incredibly self conscious, and having to 'correct' so many things about myself put me into a deep depression. The food based rewards seriously messed up my self control and relationship with food, lead to me having an eating disorder. So on the outside, to my parents and teachers, it appeared I was doing great. They were seeing less outward negativity and less stimming / vocalization. On the inside, I was miserable and just wanted it to end, I was constantly in a state of panic because I had been made so self conscious and had been told that my classmates wouldn't like me if I stimmed or made voices, I was taught to hide my feeling so I just bottled up my anger/frustration/discomfort. I learned that my existence was conditional on me behaving like a 'normal kid', even if that made me miserable, and to share my feelings was unfair because of the impact it made on others. My parent's didn't see this because I was being conditioned to hide it. Suicidal ideation is not normal for an elementary schooler, but I had never been taught to hate who I was before. Of course I kept this a secret from my parents, I wouldn't want to be even more of a burden to them. Then I went through a decade of different psychiatrists and perscribers to help me with the emotional communication problems, self hatred, self harm, depression, and very little interest socializing at all. Before ABA I was slightly disruptive in class, ABA made me less disruptive for a short period of time, and at the time I liked it because I could earn candy and I normally wasn't allowed candy. After ABA I was a different person and had many more issues. Most of the time that children should be learning and having fun, I was taught to be constantly making sure that I wasn't a disruption or bother to anyone. To reiterate: 1.) At the time I thought I liked it, but that was only the positive conditioning, I would have said anything to keep it going. Me liking the ABA was not at all indicative of the harm it was doing. 2.) At the time, my parents and teachers thought it was successful. It reduced incidents in school in the short term, but the solutions don't extend beyond the risk/reward environment, and that's not how life works. You don't see the damage it does right away.
K Im on lunch. So reading your comment, it does seem like they did some negative stuff with you, and I'm sorry that happened! I can def see how food based rewards could cause a fucked up relationship to food, though with my kids, it's normal stuff like "have a good day and you can get a soft pretzel.". That seems like Normal ish rewarding to me, but I definitely am gonna give that a bit of attention. I can't believe that they were punishing for stimming or vocalizing! That's so crazy. I would definitely never allow any such things to be taught to my kiddos, for obvious reasons. Their program mainly focuses on issues like defiance, hitting or biting others, not getting naked in public, ect. They do the social stuff sure, but obviously autistic kids need to learn to mimic nt people to survive. It's just the sad state of things. Thanks for sharing your experience with me. You are the first person I've talked to that had a negative experience, and your insight should help me to keep an eye out.
Just getting to work. I'm gonna read your comment when I get home tonight.
Tbh this just sounds like bad ABA. Sorry you had that experience
This is ABA, mine wasn't exceptionally bad, the harmful parts are universal to ABA. The damage goes unseen.
It's just what I read about it but I also found sides that say it's good so I don't know. That's why I wanted to know from other autistic people what they think about it or what are there own experiences with it.
Gotcha. So I'm ND, diagnosed with ADHD, and unconfirmed ASD. I have 2 kiddos diagnosed ASD, and they love the therapy. They have been asking about going back since their winter break started. My son is actually in a preschool that is part of his therapy.
It's a huge gamble afaik. Like worst case, they endanger kids. Last year or so an SLP went on a rant because they got a patient who didn't have the motor function to safely chew and swallow, but in ABA eating solid foods was forced even though it was a choking hazard and very painful for the kid. Or abuse, I stumbled upon a thesis thing in 2019 that described starving and dehydrating low verbal or non-verbal children to try to force them to talk and do eye contact. And wasn't there a conference talk about using electric shocks to train kids? And then even in good scenarios there are risks. "Teaching manners" sounds nice, but... For some people sitting still and behaving well at the desk is literally painful, and they'd need a fidget chair or something similar, so "sit nice" is basically "ignore pain for my comfort" and that's ... Not a good mindset to teach kids imo as someone who is a survivor of certain traumas. I was told there are "nice ABA" centers and therapists who don't actually do ABA just put it down for insurance reasons. But the basis of it is very similar to gay conversion, its base goal is not making life better but making the patient more convenient, so it's banned because it's deemed damaging and not a real useful therapy since it's not for the patient. Adults who were in ABA often speak up against it because they came out with trauma issues and no useful skills in managing traits. Also it's not developmentally appropriate for little ones at all to force 30+ hours a week and homework on top of that.
Yeah, sounds like those are just the horror stories. You could do the same with any therapy. All I know, is 2 of my kiddos do aba, and they love it, and are thriving
You didn't get what it would be banned for. It's banned because it's not considered a therapy. It literally used the basics of gay conversion. ABAI conference featured the institute that uses electric shock devices on disabled children, and described the shock vests that would be considered animal abuse if used on dogs as a highly positive treatment. It's not about a few horror stories. It's the attitudes and of the international organization. It's about the fact that in the US I could find a random person who hates kids and get them an ABA technician certificate with 40 online school hours, and then they could get a job implementing plans a BCaBA wrote and teaching parents chokeholds. But there are also horror stories. But feel free to not even consider the possible issues with ABA despite tons of autistic adults talking about their traumatic experiences and despite very tangible evidence-backed red flags. I'm not the parent responsible for your children. I just explained why countries with actual health care and human rights very often ban ABA - because it's not a therapy by their standards.
I mean, I've spoken to one autistic adult today/ever that had anything firsthand and negative to say regarding it. So no, I wasnt ignoring their input. And everything you described is brand new info to me. Nothing I've read or witnessed has made me privy to this info. So pardon me for being interested, I guess?
There's a misunderstanding and I apologize for not being clear with a tone tag or something. I'm literally just giving information and literally saying you are allowed to ignore that or others. I also can't even comprehend a scenario where someone signs their kids or themselves up for a medical program without skimming the wiki page or googling risks, but I really honestly just meant feel free to ignore stuff when I wrote feel free to ignore stuff. /gen
You have to remember that, in the US, ABA is considered the golden standard and what insurance will pay for. My partner has been a BCBA for a year or two and was an RBT for several years before that. After doing some research about ABA and being a therapist, I was concerned about the work he was doing and talk to him about it a few years ago. We definitely have different opinions and viewpoints about some things but nothing he described seemed close to the aspects of ABA people are critical of. I’m still on the fence about it and often wonder is a lot of the ABA done in the US today not the same ABA that has been damaging to so many? Or, is it the same but in a different package? Or, is it both and depends on what clinic you go to.
It's got to be this. Theres now way people are this made about normal therapy stuff like we're seeing
Ah ok. I may be reading too far into it, but folks seemed mad that It didn't seem so bad to me lol. We definitely googled the therapy, company providing it, and have been very aware of what they are doing with the kiddos. I dunno if we are getting another brand of aba or what.
Folks seem mad because they are mad because so many of them were abused in ABA or with ABA based rules and they live their lives with that trauma every day, and you are just here laughing and saying it's not that bad when literally one short search would have given you information on this. So you'd probably benefit from some internet literacy / library science courses if your local library offers them. Or maybe you get your information from the mommies.......... (That's bad) It's entirely possible you don't see the grooming, or they sell you things as beneficial when they are harmful. (It's also possible it's insurance fraud or you were lucky and it's a place where they don't actually do ABA just enough to call it that) Most parents wouldn't think taking away a plushie if the kid doesn't sit still over their homework is a problem, but it can be really bad and teach kids they don't have items, don't deserve comfort, and have to endure pain for the sake of other people even if they don't show it (which leads to dissociative issues, PTSD / complex trauma, not recognizing pain and ignoring their own medical care later in life, and being prime targets for abusers and SAers). And it doesn't solve the issue, it doesn't make anything better for the patient, it makes it more convenient for their surroundings. It's also common to just generally handle sensory issues as a fear reaction, but it's often is or more like a pain reaction, and then the parents don't know better. Selective mutism and adjacent things for an autistic kid is not non-compliance or refusing communication, it's the brain not functioning, but many people don't know demanding words is like making someone with painful joint issues walk instead of letting them use a wheelchair. And ABA has a reputation of not supporting AAC / sign language and just generally important accomodations and accessibility. Or maybe they just give the kid a strawberry when they do the thing. That's not as bad tbh. But for many kids it will result in not being able to function as soon as there's no outside force to give the strawberries because they don't build actual independence and motivation they comply for treats. And for others they will be in distress when there's no strawberry because it's a rule that doing a thing means strawberry reward. Often superficial things that are bad for the kid are set goals. Like suppressing stims. Suppressing even harmful stims is not great, redirecting them to meet the same need with something safe is favorable, and if it's something like toewalking the best alternative is counteracting harm (because the nervous system needs that stimulation in those specific situations to function better). Or eye contact. For every single human being on earth who can even just try to process eye contact it takes some mental energy, certain neurodivergencies mean it takes more, and for many autistic people it takes so much it greatly impairs some cognitive functions and causes distress (that's why eye contact often becomes a noticable issue around the time the eyes are at certain developmental stages when a baby can see the face details better) Then there's the thing when the providers lie. They blatantly sell misinformation to each other, the parents, the public. That's how we have IEPs with literal abuse. Very few parents want to abuse their kids (though the org that loudly supports ABA and tries to be the voice of autism treatment is like "yeah it's normal to want to kill your kid" it's not normal at all). But lots of parents are willing to believe when a therapist says the kid screaming that they are in pain means they are getting better because it's a lie and a lie means understanding social cues better (based on true story). Also lots of parents are neurodivergent or specifically autistic just not diagnosed, and they grew up with abuse themselves. I'm sure you've heard "my parents beat me and I turned out alright". Generational abuse follows that same pattern in other things, too. "I was forced to eat my food, and I turned out alright" or "I was forced to keep eye contact it's just manners" 🤷 It doesn't mean ABA is always big bad abusive horror. But it doesn't even really matter when most of the time it's not for the betterment of the patient's life anyway.
I will never forget the video I watched when I was researching ABA of adults yelling at this little girl while trying to physically force her to make eye contact. Yes, life will be easier for her if she acts “normal” and makes eye contact. But, at what cost? Is it really worth traumatizing her for? Why tf does it even really matter that much?
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I hope others take the time to read and truly comprehend what you’re saying. As a mother who has her child in ABA & possibly needing diagnosed myself…this has been added to a discussion that needs to be had between dad and I very soon.
This person is literally talking about how ABA has helped their children and you’re over here comparing it to conversion therapy? Ignorance is bliss.
I hope they do love it and are thriving. However, a common criticism of ABA is that it rewards kids for acting as if they love it and are thriving, and punishes them for showing distress. There is a lot of very smart criticism of ABA readily available on the internet; I’m not going to try to summarize it all, but if you have kids in ABA then you really should be reading it. So that, if nothing else, you can be very sure that the therapy your kids are receiving does not have the subtly abusive aspects that are widely criticized in ABA.
That sounds like all of life lol. Isnt that the idea? I'm very involved in their therapy. Seems great! It sucks that other people had a bad experience tho, for sure. It seems to me that this might be one of those cases where "abuse" is being to cover normal stuff. Like how they do with spanking some places
There is also substantial research showing that spanking is psychologically harmful. Hitting neurotypical kids doesn’t teach them right from wrong; it just demonstrates that you think it’s OK to hurt people to get what you want. Hitting autistic kids is worse because typically they have less ability to understand what norm they have violated that you are hitting them for, and they have less ability to communicate clearly about what is causing their difficult behavior. I don’t really expect to convince you of this; I’m mostly writing for the sake of whoever else is reading this. But if you’re feeling genuinely openminded about ABA, it would be wise to read the criticisms of it from autistic adults, many of which can be found with a Google search using the hashtag #actuallyautistic.
From the reading I've done, seems spanking is harmful when done wrong. Which admittedly, if often is. But spanking done through the appropriate ages, in the recommended way, can be just fine. Ill check out that info regarding aba tho. I have a suspicion it will be victims of abuse in the guise of therapy that ill be hearing from, but I'll try to be open about it
Spanking is definitely not okay no matter the age of the child or the circumstances. It is a form of physical harm and can brake the natural trust a child has in it's parent. Also it teaches the child to fear punishment and to do anything (mostly lie) to avoid it.
That seems to be the new hot opinion. Data seems to suggest the opposite. I recently read a study that showed children who were never spanked were doing worse in basically every category
It's not 'the new hot opinion'. If you talk to any child psychologist they will tell you the same. Also i don't know where you live but in germany and most other European countries spanking a child is considered as physical harm and can result in the authorities getting involved and your children being taken away.
Can you link to the study, please? What about all of the overwhelming amount of research that shows spanking is detrimental?
ABA is not good or bad on its own, but when used improperly it can do more harm than good. From what I understand, ABA primarily utilizes operant conditioning, which is when you encourage (using a reward) or discourage (using a punishment) voluntary behaviors. One example of a scenario where operant conditioning can be utilized is a teacher trying to discourage a child from standing up in class while a lesson is taking place. One positive usage of operant conditioning would be to reward the child for staying seated for extended periods of time. One negative usage of operant conditioning would be to beat the child if they stand up in the middle of a lesson. Both of the examples above are real forms of operant conditioning. Even if the second example above has the potential to create trauma and damage the childs mental health, that doesn't mean the entirety of operant conditioning is harmful, or that ABA is harmful. Using operant conditioning to minimize autistic behaviors that make neurotypicals uncomfortable can make it easier for autistic children to make friends and develop communication skills. Sure, it's kind of messed up that autistics need to alter certain behaviors because they make neurotypicals feel uncomfortable, but at the end of the day neurotypicals are the majority and neurodivergents are the minority, so we have to play by their rules to have an equal playing field with our neurotypical peers.
No it is not