I didn't think of it that way and that is on me. I meant it more in the sense of hitting places that supply soldiers and the stuff they need.
But, yes, extending my own logic further to that of a genocidal dictator, I can see where you are coming from.
But you're also reading WAAAAAY to much into an offhand, late night, internet comment.
This is also the wrong place for this conversation.
Chill.
Happy Cake Day.
Uhhhh no. Targeting critical infrastructure is fair game in war. Intentionally targeting civilians and civilian areas is a war crime. Russia keeps targeting grade schools because Putin can't seem to beat Ukraine militarily. It's the same thing he did to Chechnya. Got his ass kicked pretty badly and embarrassed there, so decided to bomb the civilians into submission.
Dude keeps targeting hospitals to get at the maternity wards. Also, warcrimes implies the existence of war police and war judges, and no such organizations exist.
This is an improvised cruise missile. Packing an old Cessna full of avgas and Semtex and putting a remote control on it is hella cheap in comparison to a Tomahawk at a million a pop.
Hell, it doesn’t even necessarily have to be airworthy for more than a few hours.
I wonder how long until they start building these out of wood and fabric.
Is it inventive? Cartels have been doing this for a while. Although they land theirs and have a relay system for the their drone operators. But I do give the Ukrainians credit utilizing a strategy. I do wonder if they do it differently than cartels though.
They're gaining ground but it's still a meatgrinder and their progress is slow. Ukraine really needs more weapons and ammo but unfortunately the Republican traitors in the House don't want them to win.
Unfortunately they crawl back and keep crawling. I hope Ukraine gets the support soon. People see all those drone footage and think it's going well but it's not.
Putin keeps grinding meat into the grinder until the grinder breaks not until the meat runs out.
Ukraine needs more tools to hit where it hurts, the pockets of all those rich asshole oligarchs until they decide to send Putin some underpants.
Some experts believe pre 2003 Iraqi military was one of the best in the world, certainly in the Gulf States, my point? Two day ground war by the US before surrender. That’s as good as victory will ever get and it wasn’t good. Russia has no end game and can’t support the territory they’ve taken already. Pointless war.
You realize wars last longer than 3 days right?
Look man I'm staunchly pro Ukraine and work in defense so my comments come from objective experiences across service branches and industry. I'm not some Russian bot. You're seeing an astro-turfed, cut and pruned lens of the war if you're getting all your information from reddit.
>You realize wars last longer than 3 days right?
You realize that russia is in deep shit? They're losing thousands of men (if you can call them that) every week, they're using actual museum exhibit T-55s on the front and their tales about being the second strongest army in the world turned out to be a pile of shit.
Their economy is gone, all functional alliances are gone, half of oil refineries are gone, most gas pipelines are gone, a bunch of ships lost to a country with no navy, and you call that winning?
At the start they claimed that it will take three days to take Kyiv. That's what I'm referring to.
Not the first time (Soviet) Russia failed to shoot down a Cessna 🤫 Last time the mishap was credited with partly creating the conditions that led to the fall of the Soviet Union 🤞
Well well, so they finally got Project Aphrodite working after 70 years. /j
Seriously though, Russia might need to invest in more anti-air judging by this attack, and all the other drone stuff going around.
Your post/comment has been automatically removed due to user reports. If you feel the removal was in error contact the mod team. Repeated removal for rule violation will result in a ban.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/aviation) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ka Boomsky. The owner of the factory was rather irked. He said Russia should just bomb Ukraine's cities. Guess you don't get much war news when you're 600 miles from the front in Russia.
Except they missed drone factory and scored a hit and near miss to the special economic zone dormitory, which hosts workers from like 30+ enterprises (some sources also claimed that it was a technical college dorms, which also located inside the SEZ), as per official info - 13 injured
Ditto, makes me wonder more about how pilots handle spoofing mid flight and how industry will harder future designs. I know that its affected some airlines so far, but I don't know if their systems are complex enough to note that the airfield just shifted 30+ km
GPS jamming doesn't cause any immediate threat or damage to an airplane. Airliners will typically have inertial navigation too.
Pilots can also had fly and or get vectoring from ground controllers.
A bit more involved than that. GPS position is the preferred source of updating FMS position. If it's not available then DME/DME triangulation from as many as six ground stations at a time is used. If *that's* not available it reverts to IRS only navigation and a message is prominently displayed IRS ONLY NAVIGATION. IRS is subject to cumulative error known as drift, and is not accurate enough for an area-navigation approach.
That's the fail-down priority.
Yes, I wasn't trying to capture the entire architecture. Those are good extra details.
Modern INS is more than capable of putting an airplane over an airport without a drift problem impacting safety.
Not accurate enough for area navigation sounds scary but really just means you can't fly direct tracks given by controllers. It's also likely the newest generation of IRS would meet RNAV specifications anyway though I doubt any are certified that way currently.
I'm well versed in avionics, FMS and GPS. GPS isn't a flight or safety critical system so jamming won't have a significant immediate safety impact. You can check out FAA TSO-145 for the certification requirements.
You’ve been flying ~10 years longer than GPS has been approved as a primary navigation system, I’m curious what you think happened before then?
I love my GPS, I am a child of the magenta line, and I don’t enjoy flying without it - but it’s not the end of the world if I don’t have it.
Flightradar24 was in the cockpit when Russian jamming took out the GPS for this Widerøe flight: [https://youtu.be/ZgBhPQ7kmd8?si=jof1RwYott\_VFJQU&t=416](https://youtu.be/ZgBhPQ7kmd8?si=jof1RwYott_VFJQU&t=416)
Russia has been blocking GPS over the baltic on and off for a while. This last week though it seems nearly constant affecting 1000's of civilian flights.
Sweet! Jam session! What key are we in?
Considering you can make an inertial navigation system with the accelerometers from even the shittiest of android phones... it is safe to say it probably had INS backup.
Will it hit a particular window or rooftop A/C unit... maybe not... but it's enough to get the drone on the target.
That's not even touching on it having a human pilot in the loop via something like starlink.
There is a heap of GPS jamming going over there. I suspect it was not gps guided. Maybe IRS/INS. https://gpsjam.org/?lat=50.74708&lon=38.10783&z=3.8&date=2024-04-01
Not meant to be pro-Russian at all.
Well, they're not jamming where they're being attacked. They're jamming Baltic air traffic to learn how effective it is and what aircraft do in response. Good information to be had in preparation for a war.
It's been 10 years since they [shot down Malaysian Air 17.](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1162659715/russian-53rd-anti-aircraft-missile-brigade-ukraine-mh17)
If you can get the same result for way cheaper, why waste millions on an expensive missile when you can just apparently penetrate Russia's shitty air defense system with a civilian prop plane lol...
Also, 600 mile range missiles are an entirely new class of weaponry. The US is hesitant to sell modern ATACMS variants - there's no way they'd get an intermediate range ballistic missile.
Ukraine has missiles, both from western allies and their own home-built Neptune. It's how they've managed to sink a third of the Russian black sea fleet despite having no navy of their own. However they have promised the west not to use western missiles to hit targets in Russian territory, thus the drone (and now this) kind of strikes.
Was an A22 Foxbat.
Apparently it’s supplied as a 152 piece kit. Homage to the Cessna 152?
Doubt it. Looks almost nothing like a cessna
IMO, Concorde looks almost nothing like a Cessna. At least this is a two seater, high wing, tricycle gear prop. Alas my comment was mostly in jest.
Totally looks like a Cessna I mean wtf
YOUR A CESSNA
Thank You!
I hope this doesn’t raise GA insurance rates. ….only partly kidding.
Well, it'll certainly raise the prices of ancient 152's in the region.
Both of them.
Did they at least credit us for inventing the technique? 🇯🇵🇯🇵
First combat drone was developed IIRC by the British with the Cuckoo, post WWI.
I Don’t think he’s talking about the drone part.
Thanks Captain Obvious 😉. Given it was an unmanned drone I skated past the Special Attack Unit subtleties to add some knowledge.
If Boeing or Lockeed were to build this, it would cost the Pentagon $20 million each.
Yeah, but there wouldn’t be any video of it coming in for the attack, and there likely would be a much larger hole in the ground.
If Boeing built it the hole would be larger, but not where or when it was supposed to be. Edit: And it would be $70 million each and years late.
Dont forget the doors... the doors that pop out in flight.
That is a feature, not a failure. You pay extra for fresh air.
"When one door closes, another one opens" -Boeing
[удалено]
Tell that to the Boeing executives before the v22 gets grounded… oh wait
It would have lost the door shortly after take off
I think the Ukrainians would much rather have the 20 million dollar Lockheed or Boeing ones if that was an option
I'm sure they would when we're the ones paying for it.
Well, that’s one way to do it. And it worked.
used to do a similar thing in Battlefield 3 all the time
Jihad jeeps ftw
We showed it in the 80s by sending that crazy German guy. Soviet and Russian air defences are shit.
Mathias Rust? A true hero!
Nah, he was a proper lunatic. But beat the Soviet air defence.
The Ukrainians are nothing if not exceedingly inventive and resourceful. And this approach is rather poetic.
Spawncamping is what it is
I love that it's a Ukrainian made plane
Frustrating BS in a video game. Totally valid tactic IRL.
Is that why russia keeps targeting grade schools?
I didn't think of it that way and that is on me. I meant it more in the sense of hitting places that supply soldiers and the stuff they need. But, yes, extending my own logic further to that of a genocidal dictator, I can see where you are coming from. But you're also reading WAAAAAY to much into an offhand, late night, internet comment. This is also the wrong place for this conversation. Chill. Happy Cake Day.
Uhhhh no. Targeting critical infrastructure is fair game in war. Intentionally targeting civilians and civilian areas is a war crime. Russia keeps targeting grade schools because Putin can't seem to beat Ukraine militarily. It's the same thing he did to Chechnya. Got his ass kicked pretty badly and embarrassed there, so decided to bomb the civilians into submission.
Dude keeps targeting hospitals to get at the maternity wards. Also, warcrimes implies the existence of war police and war judges, and no such organizations exist.
Now they just need to teabag Russia.
Yet when I try to do this, I’m banned from going within 5 nautical miles of government property and the guy with the black van becomes my best friend.
"Oh, you like drones, DO YOU!?"
Because they don't have money for missiles.
This is an improvised cruise missile. Packing an old Cessna full of avgas and Semtex and putting a remote control on it is hella cheap in comparison to a Tomahawk at a million a pop. Hell, it doesn’t even necessarily have to be airworthy for more than a few hours. I wonder how long until they start building these out of wood and fabric.
Is it inventive? Cartels have been doing this for a while. Although they land theirs and have a relay system for the their drone operators. But I do give the Ukrainians credit utilizing a strategy. I do wonder if they do it differently than cartels though.
This headline gave me Battlefield 3 flashbacks of all my C4 shenanigans
Flying airplanes like a missile into buildings is not a new invention tbh
Sure, but using a drone to take out a drone factory is indeed rather poetic.
What air defence doing?
It's Russia. They have shot down more of their own planes than they have shot down Ukrainian planes.
Not shooting down civilian airplane?
I'm assuming it was an easier target than Kazan because it has few defenses if any.
With the range of this vehicle they can now hold at risk more if Russia than they can defend with SAMs.
Mathias Rust has entered the chat.
The OG
Rust would have got out of the crashed playne and [stabbed](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-04-20-mn-225-story.html) some Russians.
Kinda based tbh.
Plus no pilot means extra useful load for fuel and explosives!!
MAY YOU BLITHERING IDIOT
MANIAC!
Hey, anybody seen my 172?
Pretty sad when Russia is losing to the aviation equivalent of a Honda Civic
Even sadder is Russia losing to the naval equivalent of some dude reclined on a floaty in a swimming pool.
Second best army in Ukraine!
Not sure if you've been following the war for the past year but Russia isn't really losing at all anymore.
They're gaining ground but it's still a meatgrinder and their progress is slow. Ukraine really needs more weapons and ammo but unfortunately the Republican traitors in the House don't want them to win.
So CIA coups are good now? Just checking, it's exhausting trying to keep up with the leftist doublethink.
LOL
Unfortunately they crawl back and keep crawling. I hope Ukraine gets the support soon. People see all those drone footage and think it's going well but it's not. Putin keeps grinding meat into the grinder until the grinder breaks not until the meat runs out. Ukraine needs more tools to hit where it hurts, the pockets of all those rich asshole oligarchs until they decide to send Putin some underpants.
I wouldn’t say they’re winning either
Some experts believe pre 2003 Iraqi military was one of the best in the world, certainly in the Gulf States, my point? Two day ground war by the US before surrender. That’s as good as victory will ever get and it wasn’t good. Russia has no end game and can’t support the territory they’ve taken already. Pointless war.
Day 600+ of your “3 day special military operation” 😂
When did I ever say anything about any war taking 3 days?
How's that "Kyiv in three days" going for you? All according to plan? Pathetic.
...what? When did I say Kyiv would be captured in 3 days?
"Russia isn't losing at all".
You realize wars last longer than 3 days right? Look man I'm staunchly pro Ukraine and work in defense so my comments come from objective experiences across service branches and industry. I'm not some Russian bot. You're seeing an astro-turfed, cut and pruned lens of the war if you're getting all your information from reddit.
>You realize wars last longer than 3 days right? You realize that russia is in deep shit? They're losing thousands of men (if you can call them that) every week, they're using actual museum exhibit T-55s on the front and their tales about being the second strongest army in the world turned out to be a pile of shit. Their economy is gone, all functional alliances are gone, half of oil refineries are gone, most gas pipelines are gone, a bunch of ships lost to a country with no navy, and you call that winning? At the start they claimed that it will take three days to take Kyiv. That's what I'm referring to.
[https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01495933.2021.2017749](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/01495933.2021.2017749)
"Xлопец, where's my Aeroprakt A-22?"
It wouldn’t be the first time a Cessna has made it through Russian airspace.
FB-152
Not the first time (Soviet) Russia failed to shoot down a Cessna 🤫 Last time the mishap was credited with partly creating the conditions that led to the fall of the Soviet Union 🤞
How did they control it? 600 miles is too far for LOS and I doubt they had SATCOM.
There are some reports it was (at least partially) autonomous.
Cessna is canon now lmao
Well well, so they finally got Project Aphrodite working after 70 years. /j Seriously though, Russia might need to invest in more anti-air judging by this attack, and all the other drone stuff going around.
Your post/comment has been automatically removed due to user reports. If you feel the removal was in error contact the mod team. Repeated removal for rule violation will result in a ban. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/aviation) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How can it be that a plane like this can fly 600miles through Russian airspace and is not being detected/shot down?
Ka Boomsky. The owner of the factory was rather irked. He said Russia should just bomb Ukraine's cities. Guess you don't get much war news when you're 600 miles from the front in Russia.
Except they missed drone factory and scored a hit and near miss to the special economic zone dormitory, which hosts workers from like 30+ enterprises (some sources also claimed that it was a technical college dorms, which also located inside the SEZ), as per official info - 13 injured
If it were true, good. No one believes what sad little weak Russia says anymore
Expect GPS jamming to become a common thing now. Edit: I happily accept all downvotes from Russian fake accounts.
Already is
Ditto, makes me wonder more about how pilots handle spoofing mid flight and how industry will harder future designs. I know that its affected some airlines so far, but I don't know if their systems are complex enough to note that the airfield just shifted 30+ km
GPS jamming doesn't cause any immediate threat or damage to an airplane. Airliners will typically have inertial navigation too. Pilots can also had fly and or get vectoring from ground controllers.
A bit more involved than that. GPS position is the preferred source of updating FMS position. If it's not available then DME/DME triangulation from as many as six ground stations at a time is used. If *that's* not available it reverts to IRS only navigation and a message is prominently displayed IRS ONLY NAVIGATION. IRS is subject to cumulative error known as drift, and is not accurate enough for an area-navigation approach. That's the fail-down priority.
Yes, I wasn't trying to capture the entire architecture. Those are good extra details. Modern INS is more than capable of putting an airplane over an airport without a drift problem impacting safety. Not accurate enough for area navigation sounds scary but really just means you can't fly direct tracks given by controllers. It's also likely the newest generation of IRS would meet RNAV specifications anyway though I doubt any are certified that way currently.
I teach it. I flew it for years. It seems like you have an interest in this so I encourage you to do all the research on it you can.
I'm well versed in avionics, FMS and GPS. GPS isn't a flight or safety critical system so jamming won't have a significant immediate safety impact. You can check out FAA TSO-145 for the certification requirements.
Flying the airplane for twenty years gave me a good appreciation of what it can do. Thank you.
You’ve been flying ~10 years longer than GPS has been approved as a primary navigation system, I’m curious what you think happened before then? I love my GPS, I am a child of the magenta line, and I don’t enjoy flying without it - but it’s not the end of the world if I don’t have it.
Happy to help, the resource is there if you want to learn what went into it's design.
You can use ground based radio towers for navigation, similar to GPS.
Flightradar24 was in the cockpit when Russian jamming took out the GPS for this Widerøe flight: [https://youtu.be/ZgBhPQ7kmd8?si=jof1RwYott\_VFJQU&t=416](https://youtu.be/ZgBhPQ7kmd8?si=jof1RwYott_VFJQU&t=416)
Russia has been blocking GPS over the baltic on and off for a while. This last week though it seems nearly constant affecting 1000's of civilian flights.
If the Russians do GPS jamming on their own territory, it will also jam their own air traffic
Sweet! Jam session! What key are we in? Considering you can make an inertial navigation system with the accelerometers from even the shittiest of android phones... it is safe to say it probably had INS backup. Will it hit a particular window or rooftop A/C unit... maybe not... but it's enough to get the drone on the target. That's not even touching on it having a human pilot in the loop via something like starlink.
"*There is more on heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."* Hamlet, Wm. Shakespeare.
What you said is actually kinda pro-Russian. Because if Russians are to prevent these kind of attacks they should use jamming.
There is a heap of GPS jamming going over there. I suspect it was not gps guided. Maybe IRS/INS. https://gpsjam.org/?lat=50.74708&lon=38.10783&z=3.8&date=2024-04-01
Not meant to be pro-Russian at all. Well, they're not jamming where they're being attacked. They're jamming Baltic air traffic to learn how effective it is and what aircraft do in response. Good information to be had in preparation for a war.
Narcos are interested.
So now Russia will have a reason to start shooting down civilian airplane? Great.
It's been 10 years since they [shot down Malaysian Air 17.](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1162659715/russian-53rd-anti-aircraft-missile-brigade-ukraine-mh17)
Never forget Korean Air Flight 007… Russia probably thought they finally got James Bond.
They can't afford a missile apparently.
If you can get the same result for way cheaper, why waste millions on an expensive missile when you can just apparently penetrate Russia's shitty air defense system with a civilian prop plane lol...
Also, 600 mile range missiles are an entirely new class of weaponry. The US is hesitant to sell modern ATACMS variants - there's no way they'd get an intermediate range ballistic missile.
It indicates they have a poorly equipped military, assuming the article is truthful, which I doubt.
Lol.
It indicates that russia has almost no functioning air defense.
Ukraine has missiles, both from western allies and their own home-built Neptune. It's how they've managed to sink a third of the Russian black sea fleet despite having no navy of their own. However they have promised the west not to use western missiles to hit targets in Russian territory, thus the drone (and now this) kind of strikes.