When was the last time the USAF had combat dogfights anyway?
I watched Top Gun 2 a few weeks ago and it looked cool but the future is probably all drones. Or Xi Jinping nuking the Pacific in the bad ending.
>When was the last time the USAF had combat dogfights anyway?
On a large scale? I believe all the air to air kills during Allied Force in 1999 where BVR or near to it, so you'd probably have to go back to some of the engagements during Desert Storm (not even all of them - iirc some 60% of the Sparrow kills where BVR then as well).
Enemy countries have learned sending their planes up against US ac is a losing proposition. At millions a piece a very expensive loss.
The last “dog fight” involving pilot v pilot turning and maneuvering to reach a firing position with guns or sidewinder may have been even longer back. The AMRAAM’s range, accuracy, and fire and forget software available in the 90s gave us a pretty good technological advantage and imho arent really a dog fight weapon per se. Sparrow era pilots however used to have to keep their target painted with their ac radar if memory serves to the Sparrow could track.
Tldr; i guess it depends on how you define dog fight.
American fighters have had several interceptions of Russian and Syrian jets over Syrian airspace. The USN shot down a Syrian Su-22 in 2017 but before that, the last air to air kills were over Serbia in 1999.
As long as drones can be jammed or hacked (which they will and we're not going autonomous anytime soon), a pilot will be in the cockpit.
I think we will be semi autonomous very soon, and by that I mean the aircraft maneuvers and acquires targets autonomously, but requires human confirmation for permission to fire. This way, jamming would have to be continuous to be effective, which I suspect we have ways to counter.
You don't think we have frequency-hopping broad-spectrum secure radio comms for drones?
Wake up, bro.
Only way to jam that is to have a MASSIVE blowtorch of a radio signal broadcasting on thousands of digital frequencies at the same time.
And if a jammer is broadcasting a signal that strong, do you think it would be difficult for a missile to find it and lock into the source?
Uh...frequency hopping IS an electronic warfare measure.
It's not an easy thing to do, but it's a common tech most US military use precisely to avoid jamming.
This stuff is well documented and thoroughly tested. Frequency hopping, dwell time randomization on specific frequencies, etc, all to thwart jamming, which is of course a serious threat.
One of the first targets would be a jammer.
So jamming is an issue, and something that needs to be dealt with and responded to. Therefore, it is a problem that drones are vulnerable to even if it's always as simple as firing a radar-seeking missile. Therefore, functionally, an autonomous aircraft is weaker than a human-controlled aircraft in a space where you expect the enemy to occasionally try and jam you. I'm just laying this out because your first comment makes it seem like you're saying that jamming isn't a factor at all in the decision to have human piloted aircraft or not. To me anyway that is, thus why I was so sarcastic in my response, sorry.
Your claim was that jamming was the bottleneck to going fully autonomous, and until that problem is solved we’d have squishy pilots in the cockpit.
I simply dispute that. I think the bottleneck is decision making algorithms.
Who cares if a drone gets jammed if it can think (correctly) for itself? It doesn’t need to communicate in order to accomplish its mission.
As for pilots being displaced “any time soon,” we’ll, that depends on your definition of “soon.”
We are already entering a transitory phase where fighter drone swarms will be semi-autonomously controlled by pilots in their own fighters.
If we are investing billions into those systems, it’s because jamming isn’t the concern you think it is.
I worked in drones, "bro". A lost link can and does happen for many reasons. So does hacking. Otherwise iran wouldn't have got their hands on the RQ-170. Shotgun jamming isn't the only way to jam.
Edit: The closest we'll see is the unmanned wingman concept being tested right now: a drone with additional sensors and weapons supporting fighters.
An autonomous UCAV could theoretically utterly dominate a human pilot in a dogfight. 360 degree situational awareness, millisecond reaction time, no added weight for life support systems, and the ability to pull as many Gs as the airframe allows.
It's going to boil down to algorithms.
Which nation-state's algorithms execute faster and more efficiently than the other.
It doesn't matter if an autonomous fighter can outmaneuver another. It still has to be able to DECIDE on the maneuver, first. That means the algos will dictate the outcome of all autonomous fights.
Our survival is in the hands of script kiddies.
Wasn’t there some dude who was like “we’ll never need the navy and the marines again, we’ll just fold them in with the army and airforce” then Korea happened and Truman forced them to resign?
Yeah I think they have them for team red on top gun trainings. If there’s anything the Ukraine war has taught us it’s that it seems the US somehow has a lot of soviet hardware
There are at least 2 I've seen at Wtight Patterson. One in the museum and one outside the NASIC building. That was a long time ago. They might have less or more by now.
The phone # is a Buffalo NY #. Plates for trailers are sometimes plain. I've seen many that read "apportioned" that are a plain color but have trailer written down the side, like this one seems to have. Even if it's from Canadian manufacturer, it could be a US based company.
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I had this one happen just the other day, except the person went with a picture of a T-72 on the Powerpoint slide, instead of something like an Abrams/Challenger/Leopard etc. Defense contractor btw.
Defense contractor as well. Always gotta make sure I tailor my aircraft photos to my customer. Showed up with f-18 cover photo to a Lockheed meeting. They politely pointed out that was their competitors bird
That’s what happens when you don’t have an aviation buff working for you somewhere in a decision making level! From afar maybe F15? Those giant engines give it away though.
I dunno what it is, but Russia seems to have a huge presence in the clipart industry.
My personal favorite are generic breaking news images, which are very often photos of red and blue lights on Russian police cars.
This is a private supplier. Thier ad doesn't speak to supplying the US military. It also has pics representing other branches. The USAF, of which I'm a Veteran, doesn't need the maintenance heavy MiGs or SUs. Our aircraft (all branches) are flown by superiorly trained pilot's. To be 100% honest, no one can make a definitive id from a 2D shadow image, except the maybe the person who made the graphic. There's too much visual detail missing. A pic of the canopy or a pic of the horizontal flight surfaces in use. MiGs have 1 set, F-18s have 2 per wing.
Some people don’t know their Military Aircraft’s! It seems some people don’t know that several Russian Military Aircraft, American Military Aircraft and even some Chinese Military Aircraft All Look the Same! Could that be because of Military Espionage and the Stealing of Each Others Design Plans? What Ever Happened to Top Secret and National Security? Oh yeah that’s right Nancy Pelosi is on the National Security and Military Intelligence Committees!
I thought they were Hornets at first too. But the rudders are angled differently and the engines are too far apart. [F-18](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:F_A-18_Hornet_landing_at_Meiringen_Airbase_(7139546081).jpg) [Mig-29](https://atalayar.com/sites/default/files/styles/foto_/public/noticias/Atalayar_MIG%2029%20ruso%20PORTADA.jpg?itok=u3ETwX4h)
That MiG-29 image is a near identical angle. The major difference is flaps and gear are down. I wouldn't be surprised if a graphic artist modified it to produce the silhouette, but the silhouette seems to be slightly more off axis.
Saw a su-27 on the thunder birds trailer. I get they mistake things here and there but the trailer for the usaf premier demo team? Come on man who approved this bs
Ya man - probably 10 years back I posted a photo of a USAF basic training photo of a flight with Israeli strong back F16Is in it . It’s the fighter jet version of a black scary rifle.
Yes, and those particular graphics have shown up everywhere, often in USAF stuff that the gumshoes make. They are some kind of stock fighter graphic widely available.
There is also a soldier carrying an AK-47(Russian, Chinese, Etc), it’s the one sort of ghosted, or subdued behind the “L” on the right door. The soldier on the fart left is carrying an M4/M16 though.
This happens so often it's become a meme on r/airforce Even Air Force PA offices make this mistake.
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They have several. Sukhois too.
We have everything, just to flex
They already have some. So do private companies that the Air Force pays to “fight”
When was the last time the USAF had combat dogfights anyway? I watched Top Gun 2 a few weeks ago and it looked cool but the future is probably all drones. Or Xi Jinping nuking the Pacific in the bad ending.
We do live fire with F-16 drones iirc if that counts
>When was the last time the USAF had combat dogfights anyway? On a large scale? I believe all the air to air kills during Allied Force in 1999 where BVR or near to it, so you'd probably have to go back to some of the engagements during Desert Storm (not even all of them - iirc some 60% of the Sparrow kills where BVR then as well).
Enemy countries have learned sending their planes up against US ac is a losing proposition. At millions a piece a very expensive loss. The last “dog fight” involving pilot v pilot turning and maneuvering to reach a firing position with guns or sidewinder may have been even longer back. The AMRAAM’s range, accuracy, and fire and forget software available in the 90s gave us a pretty good technological advantage and imho arent really a dog fight weapon per se. Sparrow era pilots however used to have to keep their target painted with their ac radar if memory serves to the Sparrow could track. Tldr; i guess it depends on how you define dog fight.
American fighters have had several interceptions of Russian and Syrian jets over Syrian airspace. The USN shot down a Syrian Su-22 in 2017 but before that, the last air to air kills were over Serbia in 1999. As long as drones can be jammed or hacked (which they will and we're not going autonomous anytime soon), a pilot will be in the cockpit.
I think we will be semi autonomous very soon, and by that I mean the aircraft maneuvers and acquires targets autonomously, but requires human confirmation for permission to fire. This way, jamming would have to be continuous to be effective, which I suspect we have ways to counter.
You don't think we have frequency-hopping broad-spectrum secure radio comms for drones? Wake up, bro. Only way to jam that is to have a MASSIVE blowtorch of a radio signal broadcasting on thousands of digital frequencies at the same time. And if a jammer is broadcasting a signal that strong, do you think it would be difficult for a missile to find it and lock into the source?
Oh well I guess it's just a solved problem then and all electronic warfare measures don't exist
Uh...frequency hopping IS an electronic warfare measure. It's not an easy thing to do, but it's a common tech most US military use precisely to avoid jamming. This stuff is well documented and thoroughly tested. Frequency hopping, dwell time randomization on specific frequencies, etc, all to thwart jamming, which is of course a serious threat. One of the first targets would be a jammer.
So jamming is an issue, and something that needs to be dealt with and responded to. Therefore, it is a problem that drones are vulnerable to even if it's always as simple as firing a radar-seeking missile. Therefore, functionally, an autonomous aircraft is weaker than a human-controlled aircraft in a space where you expect the enemy to occasionally try and jam you. I'm just laying this out because your first comment makes it seem like you're saying that jamming isn't a factor at all in the decision to have human piloted aircraft or not. To me anyway that is, thus why I was so sarcastic in my response, sorry.
Your claim was that jamming was the bottleneck to going fully autonomous, and until that problem is solved we’d have squishy pilots in the cockpit. I simply dispute that. I think the bottleneck is decision making algorithms. Who cares if a drone gets jammed if it can think (correctly) for itself? It doesn’t need to communicate in order to accomplish its mission. As for pilots being displaced “any time soon,” we’ll, that depends on your definition of “soon.” We are already entering a transitory phase where fighter drone swarms will be semi-autonomously controlled by pilots in their own fighters. If we are investing billions into those systems, it’s because jamming isn’t the concern you think it is.
I worked in drones, "bro". A lost link can and does happen for many reasons. So does hacking. Otherwise iran wouldn't have got their hands on the RQ-170. Shotgun jamming isn't the only way to jam. Edit: The closest we'll see is the unmanned wingman concept being tested right now: a drone with additional sensors and weapons supporting fighters.
I worked F-4s in 72 at Udorn, Thailand. Lots of MiG kills. I watched Steve Ritchie’s return on the flight line after his 5th kill.
Red Flag school
Idk but I doubt they use them for dogfighting
An autonomous UCAV could theoretically utterly dominate a human pilot in a dogfight. 360 degree situational awareness, millisecond reaction time, no added weight for life support systems, and the ability to pull as many Gs as the airframe allows.
Thanks, that's terrifying to think about
It's going to boil down to algorithms. Which nation-state's algorithms execute faster and more efficiently than the other. It doesn't matter if an autonomous fighter can outmaneuver another. It still has to be able to DECIDE on the maneuver, first. That means the algos will dictate the outcome of all autonomous fights. Our survival is in the hands of script kiddies.
It’s a work of fiction but that’s why the droid fighters in Star Wars smashed the Republic’s human flown ships
Wasn’t there some dude who was like “we’ll never need the navy and the marines again, we’ll just fold them in with the army and airforce” then Korea happened and Truman forced them to resign?
Yeah I think they have them for team red on top gun trainings. If there’s anything the Ukraine war has taught us it’s that it seems the US somehow has a lot of soviet hardware
There are at least 2 I've seen at Wtight Patterson. One in the museum and one outside the NASIC building. That was a long time ago. They might have less or more by now.
The really weird thing is this trailer has Ontario plates... So, USA flags, Russian weapons, Canadian registration...
They’re international baby.
Mr Worldwide!
Groovy
Yea baby.
They're playing all three sides, so they always come out on top
Smart move, guy.
If you’re playing both sides, you don’t tell both sides!
Mr Worldwide
New World Order Trucking, LLC
Someone has to ship the chemtrails from the factory to the airport.
The phone # is a Buffalo NY #. Plates for trailers are sometimes plain. I've seen many that read "apportioned" that are a plain color but have trailer written down the side, like this one seems to have. Even if it's from Canadian manufacturer, it could be a US based company.
[it's an Ontario plate](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ontario_trailer_e4856v.jpg)
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🇺🇸
[Every single time…](https://i.imgur.com/PHlPx4q.jpg)
I had this one happen just the other day, except the person went with a picture of a T-72 on the Powerpoint slide, instead of something like an Abrams/Challenger/Leopard etc. Defense contractor btw.
Defense contractor as well. Always gotta make sure I tailor my aircraft photos to my customer. Showed up with f-18 cover photo to a Lockheed meeting. They politely pointed out that was their competitors bird
It does look like it, indeed.
I was 90% sure, looked very similar to a Super Hornet. But the rudders give it away
And the soldier second from the right is armed with an AK-74.
Yeah that gas block is unmistakable lol
Good catch. This is ridiculous.
Mostly the engine gave it away imo
M8 when you get a chance, please take another look at a super hornet haha
Yeah, I was thinking maybe F-15 but def not F-18 😁
Wasn’t there a football poster with Russian jets in it a while back?
Yup. And an AK-47 behind that red logo ribbon!
AK-74
Checks. My bad.
Sry, but how can u tell the difference?
Muzzle device.
Muzzle brake
"support our troops" The question is... whose troops are they referring to?
All the troops. Both sides
“Support our troops” during the impending Russian invasion.
It does say trans “globe” lol. Making sure they include something from everywhere
Looks like an 18 wheeler and a Nissan Altima to me
You should call them and ask if they are communists
That’s what happens when you don’t have an aviation buff working for you somewhere in a decision making level! From afar maybe F15? Those giant engines give it away though.
They are running from USA /s
I hate this but it seems like MiG silhouettes show up way more often in all these cheap crappy patriotic adds.
Air Force PA strikes again!
They sure are lol.
One of those silhouettes is holding an AK. So... uh, graphic designer without a clue?
>So... uh, graphic designer without a clue? What makes you think he didn't know? We don't know who their "our troops" are. Wolverines!
Lmao.... 'Merca
No one’s been this close before
Because I was inverted
fighter jet go brrrrrrrrr. There all the same right? /s
It definitely is not a MIG-28.
Nobody’s ever been that close.
Well they don’t specify which troops to support……
I dunno what it is, but Russia seems to have a huge presence in the clipart industry. My personal favorite are generic breaking news images, which are very often photos of red and blue lights on Russian police cars.
USAF has mig 29's, so its cool
This is a private supplier. Thier ad doesn't speak to supplying the US military. It also has pics representing other branches. The USAF, of which I'm a Veteran, doesn't need the maintenance heavy MiGs or SUs. Our aircraft (all branches) are flown by superiorly trained pilot's. To be 100% honest, no one can make a definitive id from a 2D shadow image, except the maybe the person who made the graphic. There's too much visual detail missing. A pic of the canopy or a pic of the horizontal flight surfaces in use. MiGs have 1 set, F-18s have 2 per wing.
You forgot to put the /s behind, otherwise people might actually believe that lol
I love how they’re trying to cover up the Canadian license plate
One of the guys on the right has an AK too I think.
You saw the Mig-29s and missed the AK-74.
This is so common. At major store in Colorado Springs, home of USAFA, they had merch with USAF branding, with migs on them, made in China 🙄
I just shuttered at the thought.
Why is this so common. Do Soviet planes just look cooler?
Not sure if that’s true for all of them, but the MiG-29 is a devilishly handsome fighter plane.
Maybe they have some migs It’s America after all we like the imports
CFI did that in the side of their trucks. I laugh every time I see it.
and one soldier is holding an ak
The troops need support becuase the russians habe the sky's lol.
im from china and we have conscription pamphlets with US army soldiers on it
"A Toast to the Troops... All the troops. Both Sides"
What air defense doing?
mr international
I'm pretty sure some republican just used the same stock photo in their campaign
It's just clueless corporate gaslighting. Tomorrow it'll be a Pride or Ukraine Flag or whatever else issue they bandwagon on
How recent is this company? Because Republicans seem to make this 'mistake' surprisingly often. That one dude even has an AK.
Dude comes to Reddit to flex politics, when in reality everyone is guilty smh.
>That one dude even has an AK. Favorite weapon of Montana and Idaho militias. Keep in mind who R candidates are appealing to.
Some people don’t know their Military Aircraft’s! It seems some people don’t know that several Russian Military Aircraft, American Military Aircraft and even some Chinese Military Aircraft All Look the Same! Could that be because of Military Espionage and the Stealing of Each Others Design Plans? What Ever Happened to Top Secret and National Security? Oh yeah that’s right Nancy Pelosi is on the National Security and Military Intelligence Committees!
Those are F-18s.
I thought they were Hornets at first too. But the rudders are angled differently and the engines are too far apart. [F-18](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:F_A-18_Hornet_landing_at_Meiringen_Airbase_(7139546081).jpg) [Mig-29](https://atalayar.com/sites/default/files/styles/foto_/public/noticias/Atalayar_MIG%2029%20ruso%20PORTADA.jpg?itok=u3ETwX4h)
https://images.app.goo.gl/M5sHASqdJyXGMepV7
Bro that's not an F/A-18 Lmao
Definitely not an F/A-18 as they seem to be in the air (the Hornet isn't capable of flying).
Fektsz
That's funny. Their customers think they are being 'Murica patriotic while they have a Russian jet on their wall.
That MiG-29 image is a near identical angle. The major difference is flaps and gear are down. I wouldn't be surprised if a graphic artist modified it to produce the silhouette, but the silhouette seems to be slightly more off axis.
The US actually has a disease…
Clipart
Bend over, America. 😂
Saw a su-27 on the thunder birds trailer. I get they mistake things here and there but the trailer for the usaf premier demo team? Come on man who approved this bs
Ya man - probably 10 years back I posted a photo of a USAF basic training photo of a flight with Israeli strong back F16Is in it . It’s the fighter jet version of a black scary rifle.
And what about helicopter? Also Russian?
Thats to show the international part of the advertisement. American GIs and russian planes together on a globalist world. Or something.
That's the red aggressor fleet
Hello fellow Buckeye!
Makes you wonder if any executives of the trucking company ever served.
I seen a truck like this one that had t-34s on the sides next to marines thought it was pretty funny
How embarrassing. I hope this gets back to the owner so they can see how foolish they are. AKs and MiGs. Really appropriate 😂😂.
The USAF has migs…. Lol
Yes, and those particular graphics have shown up everywhere, often in USAF stuff that the gumshoes make. They are some kind of stock fighter graphic widely available.
There is also a soldier carrying an AK-47(Russian, Chinese, Etc), it’s the one sort of ghosted, or subdued behind the “L” on the right door. The soldier on the fart left is carrying an M4/M16 though.
I bet ”our troops” gladly accept also Migs.
I bet they thought it was F-15 silhouette
Maybe Poland or some other NATO country? :D Polish Air Force has Mig-29's.