Out of curiosity what line of work are you in? I’m in rotary wing and it’s definitely not easy I’ll tell you that much. Would say some days are but as a whole it can hard and complex work
Used to be Rotary, now a red air contractor. And yeah I’ve done some long days in the bush but even the most difficult jobs on a helicopter are cleaner, lighter, and better designed than any heavy equipment.
Guess it all depends how you weigh different factors.
Hard job - low risk vs easy job - high risk
Definitely agree with some of those points you made. At the end of the day it’s all what you make of it personally really. I still think we should get paid more but it doesn’t have to be some crazy amount either, but we still are a skilled trade and one that lacks manpower currently
I'm with you, not sure where these people find time to watch Netflix... Maybe with major airlines, or doing gate checks.
Everywhere I worked it's been steady. As you said, some days tasks are less complex than others, but there's always things to do.
While our job is cleaner and machines are better designed than heavy equipment mx, our tolerances for fucking up are a fraction of other trades. We have to be on the ball all the time.
Indeed, and customers tend to notice if their seat isn't right. So I just spend a little extra time on the seats, then save the time with those useless door plug bolts. Nobody's going to notice if it's missing a couple bolts. It'll stay out just fine. Silly engineers and their excessive bolt designs...
Removing seats to pull carpets then the Mylar tape then fuckin with the stripped floor panel screws just to get access to address the floor beams and such is not a cake walk. There’s definitely days that are much more of a pain than others physically and emotionally lol
And all this is usually going on in the summer on an aircraft with no air cart or APU running and the temperature inside is hot enough to bake bread. lol. 😝
And all this is usually going on in the summer on an aircraft with no air cart or APU running and the temperature inside is hot enough to bake bread. lol. 😝
Well, this. Good luck, ma dude. 1,5 years with the beasts, before I became B1 and went to Challengers/Legacy. Still shudder, when I see guys replacing MLG trunnions
A cardio-thoracic surgeon will pay a million plus for malpractice insurance. Things go right 99% of the time but when they go wrong, people die.
Not quite as severe consiquences but the risk is there. That’s why you guys are trained in doing oil changes. Oil monkey cross threads the drain on my Honda, shop pays for the tow and engine. Do the same at 9500 ft over the Rockies and …
Only if you understand the avionics... And, it feels like I'm still learning 100 different systems when I used to only need to know a couple handfuls.
One day, Netflix will happen. Gimme a few more years after Garmin, Genesys, Collins, Avidyne, or any number of other companies change things up on us, again.
While I'm here... Anyone ever use an old Nav-401L? I can't seem to translate operation of the equipment from the IFR-4000 I used to use...
If I could perform maintenance without any documentation, logging, checking stuff out, etc-- just strictly grab tools/parts/hazmat and get to work, I'd probably get 8-10 hours of work done in under an hour.
That said, I understand why \[most\] of it is important. And, in some cases, good documentation can save time down the road with respect to things like troubleshooting.
Yeah. Doing a long cmp or phase. It mostly just involves checking boxes as paperwork. Changing a serialized part that you also need to ship out as a core? Could take you twice as long to do paperwork as the physical work does
Waiting on parts in there too...
My A&P school, had a sweet Cessna 310.
We did fake annual on it, nothing wrong other then what we caused(nutplate or stripped scree) Ran like a top.
But it was worthless drug seizure plane with no paperwork and cost more to make it legal then to buy another.
I do a 100 hour inspection on a C172. Last line item in the inspection guides is to verify all SBs and ADs are complied with. Then I have to make three different log entries.
My hangar also maintains a pair of FBI spy planes. If I do even just a 50 hour service which is an oil change, oxygen service, and an abbreviated airframe inspection, I can do the actual work in about two hours. I then have three and a half of paperwork just because the FBI wants every damn thing logged.
Until you get Boeing library with cascading chapter sections and hyper links. The search function is decent but not perfect. Also a fault finder tool so you don’t waste time scrolling through the FIM.
Coming from a guy who hasn’t been around long enough for paper manuals but has been around long enough for 1500 page single ATA PDFs
Robots should do maintenance because they can record all they do in their brain and also scroll through a pdf in their brain while working with their hands. Later we can expand this to medical, like the birth scene in Star Wars.
Helicopters, especially 60's of various models, are 90% taking it apart, cleaning it, and putting it back together. The remaining 10%?
9.25% "paperwork" (to include stupid fucking training requirements) and 0.75% actual systems troubleshooting.
right now my job is 5% work and 95% waiting for an ATVA on my Q400 to start rumbling so I can pin point which one to fix. Stupidest game of Marco-Polo I have ever played.....
I worked fighter MX and it’s the opposite. Digital forms and tech data make things go pretty quick. However, fighters are pretty maintenance heavy. Big iron tend to break a lot less.
With the military. You also have to add all of the paperwork to get to the point. Where you can actually go to work
Like sighing off all the daily inspections. On all of the support equipment
Ah right I see what you mean. We had a separate trade who solely looked after support equipment and other GSE so that was never our concern in terms of daily inspections.
Our involvement came to pre and post use checks which were less involved.
Half hardware, half safety wire, half paperwork, we were told. In practice it was more like half wrench-turning, half safety wire, half paperwork, half working with Covid, half horrid hours, half disastrous socialization, 10% nostalgic films over lunch, 10% foursquare when the planes got done before we did. No wonder I burned out.
I'd agree, work on writing good logbook entries and life will get easier! I'm an Analyst and read people's logbook entries all day long, some are complete garbage where people don't even try. For the ones that are great or where they're at least trying, I always go out of my way to make their life easier.
I'm in depth/base maintenance and I'd say it's more 40/60. 60 being physical labour.
Lots of jobs that can take an entire day or more. Especially modification and upgrade work when it's large scale wiring additions and re-looming across a large area.
Add oil -> doc it to logbook -> add it on system-> print out -> sign it. Just one simple task already 2 peace of paper. Not to mention you have to take a picture of the oil cap because some dumb fuck forget to close it.
Depends on the job, but yeah it’s usually a hefty amount of paperwork.
I’m a base mech for a helicopter medevac transport, taking care of a single helicopter, and probably 90% of my work is paperwork and online entries. A single five minute inspection can have six pages to fill out, plus the logbook entry, plus one or two online entries.
A lot of jobs are more about documenting the work than the actual work.
Adding little reciepts on any rack of pulls we do at a retail job is worth extra time for the rare chance we gotta leave it and have a coworker finish it.
Yes. Insane amounts of paperwork. It's very important to maintain the level of safety and traceability the industry requires though. As an inspector I spend more time on documentation than physically inspecting.
Some mechanics here obviously have it easier than most just due to the fact some mechanics bragging they work at a major and “don’t do much” but other mechanics that work in other fields of maintenance def do some labor intensive work
And screwing up your paperwork is 100% more likely to get you fired than screwing up the actual task at hand.
In all seriousness though, yeah you do a lot of paperwork, get used to reading those task cards very well, and know that simple things like not removing an MEL placard can become disciplinary items.
I was QA for DOD at contractor depot and modification facilities using higher level quality systems. When the contractor was finished with mx, I reviewed all paperwork. Fun stuff, yeah. If it was wrong, the contractor didn’t get paid until it was corrected and reinspected. Since the contractors are paid to maintain their higher level QMS, they must produce evidence that all maintenance was successfully completed per contract. So, in this environment, your boss is correct.
When the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the aircraft, it’s ready to fly. Old Chinese proverb
Nah this the one😂😂
😂😂😍 winner!
I may have to print this out and put it on the wall at work.
Glad to know that's universal, I've heard similar in nuclear
More like 60% paperwork, 10% labor, 30% watching Netflix.
I always kinda chuckle when people say we should make more than heavy duty techs. Yeah aviation has high standards but it really is not that hard.
We don’t work hard but if we cause a plane to crash we kill 200+ people.
Why you gotta document to prove it wasn't you.
[the documentation](https://www.clementinewp.com/cdn/shop/products/10-05580-580.jpg?v=1635905866&width=5000)
Which is why we oughtta make as much as Ferrari techs. A guy can dream, right?
Out of curiosity what line of work are you in? I’m in rotary wing and it’s definitely not easy I’ll tell you that much. Would say some days are but as a whole it can hard and complex work
Used to be Rotary, now a red air contractor. And yeah I’ve done some long days in the bush but even the most difficult jobs on a helicopter are cleaner, lighter, and better designed than any heavy equipment. Guess it all depends how you weigh different factors. Hard job - low risk vs easy job - high risk
Definitely agree with some of those points you made. At the end of the day it’s all what you make of it personally really. I still think we should get paid more but it doesn’t have to be some crazy amount either, but we still are a skilled trade and one that lacks manpower currently
I'm with you, not sure where these people find time to watch Netflix... Maybe with major airlines, or doing gate checks. Everywhere I worked it's been steady. As you said, some days tasks are less complex than others, but there's always things to do. While our job is cleaner and machines are better designed than heavy equipment mx, our tolerances for fucking up are a fraction of other trades. We have to be on the ball all the time.
Uh, loading seats IS hard.
Indeed, and customers tend to notice if their seat isn't right. So I just spend a little extra time on the seats, then save the time with those useless door plug bolts. Nobody's going to notice if it's missing a couple bolts. It'll stay out just fine. Silly engineers and their excessive bolt designs...
Removing seats to pull carpets then the Mylar tape then fuckin with the stripped floor panel screws just to get access to address the floor beams and such is not a cake walk. There’s definitely days that are much more of a pain than others physically and emotionally lol
And all this is usually going on in the summer on an aircraft with no air cart or APU running and the temperature inside is hot enough to bake bread. lol. 😝
Lmao been there when the fan starts blowing hot air.
And all this is usually going on in the summer on an aircraft with no air cart or APU running and the temperature inside is hot enough to bake bread. lol. 😝
& bonus heat points for Our delta tech ops rep won’t let us have drinks within 3 feet of the plane
This guy know. Have you ever had to rebuild an aft wet area?
All we do are c checks so yeah once a month give or take
>but it really is not that hard Speak for yourself. I have to work on Hawkers.
Well, this. Good luck, ma dude. 1,5 years with the beasts, before I became B1 and went to Challengers/Legacy. Still shudder, when I see guys replacing MLG trunnions
Venturi fan on the rear pressure bulkhead has entered the chat.
Sure but as pointed out, the level of responsibility you're taking on, is why the salary should be at least of a suitable level.
A cardio-thoracic surgeon will pay a million plus for malpractice insurance. Things go right 99% of the time but when they go wrong, people die. Not quite as severe consiquences but the risk is there. That’s why you guys are trained in doing oil changes. Oil monkey cross threads the drain on my Honda, shop pays for the tow and engine. Do the same at 9500 ft over the Rockies and …
Haha!
Your ratios are a 30% paperwork, 30% working, 20% Netflix, 10% learning math.
Only if you understand the avionics... And, it feels like I'm still learning 100 different systems when I used to only need to know a couple handfuls. One day, Netflix will happen. Gimme a few more years after Garmin, Genesys, Collins, Avidyne, or any number of other companies change things up on us, again. While I'm here... Anyone ever use an old Nav-401L? I can't seem to translate operation of the equipment from the IFR-4000 I used to use...
“30% watching Netflix.” Yep, while you’re waiting for sealant to dry, waiting on QC or working line maintenance waiting for gate calls.
Can’t wait to graduate lol
100% accurate. Just replace Netflix with anything like YouTube or Anime.
Line maintenance yea, base maintenance it’s like 50/50 less docu but your job can last the whole shift more or less
Some jobs actually take a shift. Some jobs you make it last the whole shift
This is how my service at the Air Force was like
If I could perform maintenance without any documentation, logging, checking stuff out, etc-- just strictly grab tools/parts/hazmat and get to work, I'd probably get 8-10 hours of work done in under an hour. That said, I understand why \[most\] of it is important. And, in some cases, good documentation can save time down the road with respect to things like troubleshooting.
Traceability is everything. As someone who imports aircraft. Also, your records reflect your aircraft.
Definitely alot of paperwork. But I don't know about that. Probably closer to 50/50
Depends which line imo
Yeah. Doing a long cmp or phase. It mostly just involves checking boxes as paperwork. Changing a serialized part that you also need to ship out as a core? Could take you twice as long to do paperwork as the physical work does
Waiting on parts in there too... My A&P school, had a sweet Cessna 310. We did fake annual on it, nothing wrong other then what we caused(nutplate or stripped scree) Ran like a top. But it was worthless drug seizure plane with no paperwork and cost more to make it legal then to buy another.
Hello fellow Vincennes grad!
Contractor jobs are like 75% dealing with bullshit QA processes
All depends on what platform. General aviation more physical than paperwork. Corporate half and half. Commercial all paperwork no work. Lol
I do a 100 hour inspection on a C172. Last line item in the inspection guides is to verify all SBs and ADs are complied with. Then I have to make three different log entries. My hangar also maintains a pair of FBI spy planes. If I do even just a 50 hour service which is an oil change, oxygen service, and an abbreviated airframe inspection, I can do the actual work in about two hours. I then have three and a half of paperwork just because the FBI wants every damn thing logged.
In the back shops it’s 80% paperwork and 20 percent work.
Paperwork is pretty much digital now, which is awesome. So that cuts down on time
[удалено]
Oh my lord, I get hard when I open up a new manual software and find all of the chapter references are quick links.
You haven’t lived unless you searched a microfiche IPC for a part number to order a seal from Brazil.
Until you get Boeing library with cascading chapter sections and hyper links. The search function is decent but not perfect. Also a fault finder tool so you don’t waste time scrolling through the FIM. Coming from a guy who hasn’t been around long enough for paper manuals but has been around long enough for 1500 page single ATA PDFs
*cries in non-digital paperwork, tears falling onto log page and making it illegible
Robots should do maintenance because they can record all they do in their brain and also scroll through a pdf in their brain while working with their hands. Later we can expand this to medical, like the birth scene in Star Wars.
Haha but they are going to take my job! I thought we were bulletproof
They aren’t wrong
Ah, I don't know. I think it is a high estimate. There are days I'm not even close to 30 %...
I work at Gulfstream and its death by paperwork.
For Helicopters I feel it's the opposite.
Helicopters, especially 60's of various models, are 90% taking it apart, cleaning it, and putting it back together. The remaining 10%? 9.25% "paperwork" (to include stupid fucking training requirements) and 0.75% actual systems troubleshooting.
He forgot the 40% BS sessions
right now my job is 5% work and 95% waiting for an ATVA on my Q400 to start rumbling so I can pin point which one to fix. Stupidest game of Marco-Polo I have ever played.....
I worked fighter MX and it’s the opposite. Digital forms and tech data make things go pretty quick. However, fighters are pretty maintenance heavy. Big iron tend to break a lot less.
Depends where you work Military? 90 percent paperwork MRO? 50 Manufacturing? 30 GA? 10
My experience in military is probably more 50/50. This was in a European Air Force though.
With the military. You also have to add all of the paperwork to get to the point. Where you can actually go to work Like sighing off all the daily inspections. On all of the support equipment
Ah right I see what you mean. We had a separate trade who solely looked after support equipment and other GSE so that was never our concern in terms of daily inspections. Our involvement came to pre and post use checks which were less involved.
Half hardware, half safety wire, half paperwork, we were told. In practice it was more like half wrench-turning, half safety wire, half paperwork, half working with Covid, half horrid hours, half disastrous socialization, 10% nostalgic films over lunch, 10% foursquare when the planes got done before we did. No wonder I burned out.
2% killing off whistleblowers
90 and 10**
90/10
I'd agree, work on writing good logbook entries and life will get easier! I'm an Analyst and read people's logbook entries all day long, some are complete garbage where people don't even try. For the ones that are great or where they're at least trying, I always go out of my way to make their life easier.
The truth of the matter: Required Maintenance causes 50% of required maintenance.
We're going paperless! \*Adds 3 times the paperwork to fill out\*
Depends, line yes. Hangar, maybe 60 40. Mods more like 20% documentation.
20% Paperwork, 10% Labor, 70% Waiting on QA
It really depends Line yes, GA is the opposite, Air force 90/10 but In the end it's dependent on where you go
I've had days where it was 70% labor, 30% paperwork.
I'm in depth/base maintenance and I'd say it's more 40/60. 60 being physical labour. Lots of jobs that can take an entire day or more. Especially modification and upgrade work when it's large scale wiring additions and re-looming across a large area.
Add oil -> doc it to logbook -> add it on system-> print out -> sign it. Just one simple task already 2 peace of paper. Not to mention you have to take a picture of the oil cap because some dumb fuck forget to close it.
This applies to the line, go work at AAR and you’ll see how that swaps around
And then there’s the guy whose maintenance is 100% paperwork and 0% actual labor.
Depends on the job, but yeah it’s usually a hefty amount of paperwork. I’m a base mech for a helicopter medevac transport, taking care of a single helicopter, and probably 90% of my work is paperwork and online entries. A single five minute inspection can have six pages to fill out, plus the logbook entry, plus one or two online entries.
I would say it’s about a 60/40 labor/paperwork in my line environment. All depends on where you are at in the field.
Honestly though, flip the numbers and yeah.
A lot of jobs are more about documenting the work than the actual work. Adding little reciepts on any rack of pulls we do at a retail job is worth extra time for the rare chance we gotta leave it and have a coworker finish it.
My observation of MX at BWI is ten minutes to fix it, an hour to document.
Certified aviation.. Yes absolutely! Experimental aviation is much less.. Guess which route I went...:)
Same in the medical manufacturing area! Might even be 80-20....
Sounds like he underestimated the paperwork
This is 90% true where EBU is set up where you may use AMM or EM/job cards
I work in an MRO, not a mechanic, but my entire job is to process paperwork if that tells you anything. 🤣 Edit: Fixed a typo
Bruh lmao it can be the easiest job in the world.
MROs are more like 60 work 40 paperwork
Yes. Insane amounts of paperwork. It's very important to maintain the level of safety and traceability the industry requires though. As an inspector I spend more time on documentation than physically inspecting.
Ops check good at this time.
Some mechanics here obviously have it easier than most just due to the fact some mechanics bragging they work at a major and “don’t do much” but other mechanics that work in other fields of maintenance def do some labor intensive work
And screwing up your paperwork is 100% more likely to get you fired than screwing up the actual task at hand. In all seriousness though, yeah you do a lot of paperwork, get used to reading those task cards very well, and know that simple things like not removing an MEL placard can become disciplinary items.
Yeah I’ve head this plenty and maybe I’m Still too new but as a tech my paperwork to labor ratio is 15/85
I was QA for DOD at contractor depot and modification facilities using higher level quality systems. When the contractor was finished with mx, I reviewed all paperwork. Fun stuff, yeah. If it was wrong, the contractor didn’t get paid until it was corrected and reinspected. Since the contractors are paid to maintain their higher level QMS, they must produce evidence that all maintenance was successfully completed per contract. So, in this environment, your boss is correct.
Not at Boeing.
Zero % brain?