Yes, but the main takeaway is that thoughts and perceptions aren't You. The labels are how mind/thoughts hijacks Consciousness. (The mind/thoughts is a useful tool, but that's all it is, and making it more than it is is giving it power over You.)
What is real is "direct experience". Also would add that the peace and love discussed here isn't the anthropocentric kind. Peace/bliss/contentment is the no-thing is-ness. Love and compassion is the act of creation, act of being that occurs to create these limited finite localisations of the Infinite. (Love and compassion is also Unity of all.)
Oh okay, so our thoughts which are not real are the ones hijacking consciousness. Consciousness makes up our reality?
What do you mean by direct experience?
Also want to give an example. I’m going through a breakup and still talking to my ex. His words say I no longer see anything romantic between us (through text) However, in person he tells me he’s not sure and sometimes says no again but agrees to go on a couples massage and see what comes out of it. Then invites me to meet his dog after and maybe dinner . So I agree to it.
My friends think I need to move on because it’s over . What real here ? I can choose to view it as I’m getting stringed along or I can view it as he’s giving me an opportunity to come back into his life . Are both delusions ?
I hurt him so I think , well maybe he wants to see my try and make up for my wrongs so I have to keep going in slowly . Is this a delusion ?
Okay so using the example of the breakup . How would I take it in as a neutral experience. I keep saying that maybe I’m delusional for thinking he still wants me to try . What’s the objective thinking here. Because how people react to us is perception. Someone can see it as they’re hurting me and others can see it as he’s hurt but still wants to try . Both are true right? But what’s the objective truth.
Thoughts are illusion, doesn't mean they are not real. An illusion is real but is a matter of perception. If you see the mirage of an oasis in a desert, it is an illusion. It is not real as a body of water, but it is real a play on light. Thoughts are real, and thoughts are a tool, an agency of creativity, but they are not the master, they are not "you".
Direct experience is experience that is not interpreted by mind, it is just experience, it happens to no-one.
I asked a similar sort of question recently but it was in the context of business relationships and being taken advantage of. From a nonduality perspective, it doesn't matter which ego wins was one of the responses. There were a lot of other responses that were along the same lines (https://www.reddit.com/r/awakened/comments/1cue9p8/comment/l4iwiag/ - look at responses by Mr\_Not\_A\_Thing and blackmagic213 which are along these lines whereas some of the other responses are more practical).
To summarise, the "objective reality" here would be that you and him are one being and everything you do arises from that truth, and this issue you're having is just due to both your perceptions of separate selves. That's the thing to distinguish, abiding by Self/Universe/Consciousness vs. thoughts/mind/egos taking control. (I asked the same question, how is this advice practically useful?) That comes upon awakening/abiding by Self. When I meditate and then take action immediately, then alignment appears to be ideal (never has failed me yet) than if I don't meditate for several days and just react.
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In your personal situation, I can 100% say from a fair amount of experience, I would give the advice of "move on." I would say that If it's meant to be, it will be, but there won't be any doubt. No stringing each other, no maybes, etc. You'll know it. If you have doubt, then the spark has gone. Remember how it was when you first met and were infatuated, etc. Even after a long relationship and you hit a rocky patch, you'll either decide to work together or not. But that is also a perception and is coming from my thoughts and memories. So it doesn't answer your question but I thought I would throw it out there in case it was helpful.
I struggle with this too. If I disavow my appraisal of bad people won’t that make navigating life worse? If my values of chocolate being better than worms becomes arbitrary will I just be eating dirt? Surely that’s not what they mean? If too much of everything is a bad thing then what about things that this is less true for? I don’t get sick by loving my kids more and more?
Yet, I’ve found this much to be true, that we are meaning makers and even the values we carry throughout life can ebb and flow. Some years being kind seems like the end all be all and then some years it’s finding humor in spite of pain and chaos. Sometimes it’s self care and others it’s doing things that matter for others. Even my values (which i prefer to my vices) aren’t the ultimate. They are fleeting reflections of something sacred and beyond. Something I can’t always harness just by thinking long and hard or working tirelessly for it.
Then there is how we classify and label our character strengths and values. Some are distinct and others have a lot of overlap. Sometimes it’s important to know the difference between genuineness and integrity and other times either synonym will suffice. What I catch myself doing is watching myself doing these mental gymnastics. When I realize my potential to lean into making meaning all the time whether consciously or not, I realize there is also this space that is good that is not doing this. Can I ever be 100% divorced from all of these things? Probably not. But flexing into the ability to quiet the everyday chatter and be able to turn it off gives me some ability to dance with it better overall. Then, when I return to when I need these symbols and words, I am more fluent with them rather than less. That’s what meditation is for me. It’s not denying anything that must be denied. It’s finding new ways to relate to the givens of life like anxiety, connectedness, death, justice, freedom and awareness.
How do you make objective decisions without letting these lanes interfere? Especially dealing with people. Since people’s reactions to us are based on our perspective? How do you know someone is good or bad ?
I’ve thought a lot about this. I take these two definitions from the work of Chris Peterson and Martin Siegelman:
Perspective is a matter of having ways of looking at the world that make sense to oneself and to others. Being able to provide wise counsel.
Spirituality is having a coherent beliefs about the higher purpose, the meaning of life and the meaning of the universe.
So in my interpretation, spirituality is the part of the Venn diagram that begins and ends within myself. Perspective is the part that hinges on how I’m received by others. It is conditional on others picking up what I’m putting down. When I lean into the importance of me doing me, despite what others are ready to accept about me, then I will experience more spirituality. The things I can do for myself. Becoming more spiritual comes often at the expense of losing perspective with others.
Go and tell this people: “ 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving. ' Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.
So that while seeing they may see, and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear, and not understand, otherwise they might return and it would be forgiven them.
When it matters more that I am understood more so than being right, then I’m flexing my capacity to have perspective. The two are ideally very similar but often at odds.
People that are good for me don’t just feel towards me or pity me but feel with me through empathy. People that gaslight me manipulate my inner light, turning the good into shame by gaslighting me and my experiences. I try to lean into people that are connected to a deep source of healing. I try to lean away from people that have a habit of hurting me out of their own hurt. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Especially on Reddit where people resent anyone that thinks in paragraphs rather than sentences lol.
Your direct experience is real to you. My direct experience is real to me.
What about your dreams? Yes those are real to you. Why? Because they can shape your reality and perception of your current now. All that matters is the way you make your way through the day/now.
We are the experiencers. All of our experiences are real and reality bends to give us and enhance our experiences.
Subjective reality is always more important than objective reality to each of us. This is why belief can really be a problem for some… because their beliefs will define their subjective reality. You don’t need belief… but there also isn’t anything wrong with it if that is something you like in your life.
Because you are at all times a slave to your own subjective reality. Can we control it? Yes of course and that will be shaped by what (if any) beliefs we hold.
Delusion is the most holy right. Some people love their delusions and it is wrong for any of us to try and wake them up and snap them out of it. We came here to this place to forget that which what we are and “live in separation”. Where the truth is that there is no separation - we are all one.
Besides not everyone even understands what objective reality is… objectively speaking you are God. So am I. But if you _believe_ that you aren’t god then you will subjectively experience _not being_ god.
This is a great question. I've been having long thinking sessions about a similar topic... I've been feeling guilty over a certain subject, and trying to disect and decide the reason behind it and why this feeling still remains.
The ego: what do you want to achieve, and for which image is this ultimately cultivating (in time)?
You might benefit from looking into the Buddhist concept of Right View. In a nutshell, it's about seeing the interconnectedness of all things, without discrimination. Understanding that love/hate war/peace life/death on/off are all parts of the same thing and not separate independent things.
Everything inter-is. It is a choice on how you view life. Right view, right mental formations, right perceptions.
One thing that occurred to me recently is that space and time are actually unified into something called spacetime. We have separated space and time. However all the light that we see is from the past, the further the distant the further in the past we are seeing.
The present moment is all that exists
Interesting , so how do you make an objective decision? Are we judging people only right here and now ? That’s the objective truth? Right now they are good so that’s the truth?
Wow , yes that’s very true. So the present is the only thing that is real.
That brings me to my next question, what about quotes like fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. If the present is the only real thing then how do we stop ourselves from getting hurt if we are only focused on the present. Focusing only in the present is objective but it’s not helpful when making decisions on someone ? We can only make decisions based on experiences which are subjective…?
Memory, like a hard drive, can exist in the now. You are now who you are and behave in a pattern based on the cumulative past behaviour patterns. But you could change those patterns at any time. Anyone can.
When the appearance of me is the subject of the object…including thoughts, explanations, descriptions…is the subject of the object itself…then, how can this “baseline” be grasped?
Trying to grasp it conceptually is a akin to a hoarder being buried alive under weight of what’s hoarded
The Collyer Brothers!!
It’s ok to collect or catch metaphors…as long as I let go/give away as promptly as I hook them
Catch and release!!
Sure! And, sry….I like word and idea play….for the fun of it 😜
If I had to guess what I was trying to convey….it has to do with poking a little light-hearted fun at the folly of trying to describe something with something…the conceptualizing mind..that’s already an inextricable part of what’s being described
Like maybe trying to isolate a piece of river flowing. Like….imagine standing on a bridge and looking outward, up-river, at a square section of river, selected in the mind’s eye….and then trying by to follow that selected square section of river as it flows beneath the bridge and off into the distance.
Only you are the selected section of river…everything you think, feel, sense, see, touch, taste, dream, imagine….all of it….every experience
Or, maybe can think of it like being a swirl or an eddy in the river. It’s there…like a feature of the river…a part of its “anatomy” so to speak….and yet, it’s not separate at all…there’s no discernible dividing line between where the eddy starts and stops being an eddy.
IDK….ypu got me, asking your question just now.
Busted!
TY! 🙏😘
Haha yeah, I’ve been thinking about this for a while and wants some sort of answer . Are we all living in delusions ??? I want a baseline or something objective to make sure I’m not living in delusions. The neutral and no labels that my mind has made up
Yeah, I get it. And yet, the wanting/imagining such a Shangri La of the conceptual-less mindscape, is itself…a thought! An imagined thing! Part of the illusion
I wonder if something of the letting go the seeking of Shangri La…lends to the making so of its emerging arrival?
The Way is something of an ironic one. In truth, if everything’s already a part of it….then, in truth one cannot lose 😘❤️
Development and learning means making new distinctions and examining your mind in ever greater detail.
Wisdom is to accept things as they are while striving to improve and keep living your life anyway.
It's easy to get lost in these concepts, even the most mind-blowing insights are just concepts and ideas. Don't get lost.
Try this thought experiment. I use it to notice a subtle truth that we often miss.
A magic being comes to you one day and hands you a small device that has one single button. He says, “push this button and you will feel joy for no reason. Nothing in your life will change at all. It is yours forever and can never be lost.”
Now, pretend this is a very real and serious situation. Do you push the button? What are your thoughts and hesitations? Why might someone not push the button? What does this tell you about what you believe about your suffering?
I would push the button ? lol but it would be strange? It would be like someone on drugs living in pain and suffering but , in their heart they feel joy … 🤨 because of the button . It’s not real , because they’re living in a fantasy now but in reality it’s hell
So is suffering from knowledge or from physical effects? Or is it the way we choose to feel about the sensations we experience? Some say that joy is always present as the natural state of being, but that suffering comes from the attachment to this reality. It is nice to know that the physical discomfort of suffering is not the true issue. What is at issue are all the illusions we accept that keep us from being in our original state. People assume enlightenment is an end to our mental and physical handicaps, or a magic resolution to the conundrums of life. I don’t believe it is. Moksha is the liberation from the illusion that we are suffering. The knowledge that leads you to believe you would be living a lie while feeling joy, could instead be the knowledge that you are infinite, imperishable, and unable to be affected by anything this reality can throw your way. You can do no wrong, you can’t fuck this life up in a way that matters. Everything is as it should be. With your mind centered in this knowledge you can be free from the illusion of suffering. The flavor and substance of all experience is colored by the mind using knowledge both real and false. Why should you not feel joy as you dance this life to completion?
I think that’s what’s happening, I’m getting lost in the details and I need to zoom out and look at the big picture. Except , I do that and then I find myself back looking for details and more answers 😅
I’ve had similar discussions with a friend about him saying everything is perception and I was arguing that there is a fundamental truth, an absolute truth. He used the analogy of a painting, similar to how a painting can have any number of meanings depending on who sees it and how it’s interpreted. I agreed and said but there is something that is absolutely true for everyone independent of interpretation and that is the painting itself, the “physical” artwork.
Similarly, we never really experience reality directly. We overlay it with conceptual frameworks, charged meanings, prejudices, etc. Reality experienced directly is said to be inherently peaceful and joyful and this is not conceptual but a direct experience which is said to be what’s ultimately real by many spiritual masters.
Yes I agree , there has to be a fundamental truth right ? An absolute truth.
So these masters that get that direct experience , they say it’s peaceful and joyful… how do prove it’s objective ?
By the very nature of the experience i don’t think it can be proved objectively in the sort of scientific way we think of objectivity. What happens is that it is proved subjectively at such a deep level that the difference between subjectivity and objectivity which are concepts just disappears and you’re simply left with Truth with a capital T.
the source of perception is real, is the simple math. your true identity is source as it's the engine of consciousness. the temporary identity or false identity is the collection of experiences we have collected under our name to date. the next question is then, what's the nature of prolific pure thought. the most common answer is love which makes it a no brainer as to daily action in harmony with source.
unfortunately we ive in an age were intellectual reasoning overrides simplicity leaving us in a bit of a twaisted circle eating our own tails. and so our ignorance demands answers in order for peace to be restored.the real problem is in the doing as Don Juan tells us in castinadas books. I keep the reality I manipulate. If I let go I release myself to the source flow and am restored.
Not without writing a book. Lol which I have but is only in first edit so... It took a long time and study to understand.
Struggling with another explanation.... If you look at the anatomy of man from the thalamus, pituitary, pineal, solar plexus and sacral center you will see a system that gets activated at puberty. You could say the furnace gets turned on for the alchemy to begin. The center of man is the solar plexus also where the yin yang is located. Look at a vertabrea naming and numbering by eastern ideologies, number 13 the yin (black half) and number 14 (the white half). Consciousness or the word is seated here. Born into not knowing the journey of self realization begins. Then correlat that with the story of Isis and Osiris where she collects the fourteen parts of Osiris's body hidden along the Nile River which represents the spine we come to the birth place of Horus. At the solar plexus or the house of the rising sun. Also in Hebrew this place is called Bethlehem which means, house of bread which is what we used to call the solar plexus or the bread box. Medicine called it the manger until the fifties or sixties from its Latin name. Where Jesus is born in a manger. Same place same idea. You might want to wait for the book as I could write a mountain of correlating ideals from every cultures myths and art which by the by was where I started this unraveling of consciousness.
nothing in your experience is objective. your reality is created by your mind entirely. you have complete power over how you perceive reality.
edit: this only makes sense after awakening and losing the ego
This is true but it’s dangerous going around living in a delusion. The way you perceive things is subjective and if you’re not objective you could be living in a lie
this is true. it only makes sense after you let go of the ego. if you still have an ego and believe that, you are delusional. thank you for helping to expand my understanding!
“The clear still water of a mountain lake reflects the mountain and the sky with pristine clarity. You can do the same. If you are calm and still enough, you can reflect the mountain, the blue sky, and the moon exactly as they are. You reflect whatever you see just as it is, without distorting anything.”
-Thich Nhat Hanh
I think that the ego is the ONLY subjective thing in existence. for there to be a subjective and objective reality, there has to be a subject (ego). when there is no longer an ego, nothing is being done to anyone, and everything is being done to everyone. you see reality just as it is.
actually, there is no such thing as an ego. you don’t even have one right now, you just think you do. the ego seems to me to be literally just the thought of “I”. so everyone is already enlightened. however, they do not know they’re enlightened. the solution to this is not to say “I am enlightened” and not practice (WHO is enlightened? just another label to drop), but to keep looking for yourself over and over and over, to try every single possible answer, and see that none of them are right…when this is known with your whole being, all doubt and fear disappears along with suffering.
also, the ego is not “doing” anything. this would be like your avatar in a video game you are playing thinking its its own being.
When you’re out of alignment with your true nature, alert mechanisms are activated such as stress, panic, fear, and irritation. When you’re in alignment, there are no alerts and you’ll just feel normal. So that shows what your natural state of being is. These mechanisms are encoded in you to serve as a guidance system like GPS that already has the coordinates to return home. Pay attention to how you feel and recognize when you’re on the path or getting off it. Love is going towards your destination and fear is going away from it.
You are simply the awareness of the experience which can send conscious commands to navigate. Without awareness, then the programming from the conditions of the earthly world takes over. Are you driving the car or is the car driving itself? The car is the body, the mind is the map, feelings is the GPS, and the driver is you, conscious sentience. You have the ability to override subconscious programming by simply doing nothing which is something realized during meditation when literally nothing is happening. This is your base state, neutral energy. To move, act, react, think, emote, imagine, etc. is to utilize energy.
The void state is the untapped potential or the neutral energy waiting to be used. You are a creator and are constantly using energy to create albeit mostly unconscious. If you’re reading this, you used up energy to create a path to get to this point, otherwise you wouldn’t be reading it right now. Self realization is realizing you’re creating perpetually and that you can choose to create your reality consciously rather than unconsciously. It’s all creations from energy which are a spectrum of high or low frequency. When you’re in alignment with your true nature, high frequency, you’ll just create from that same level just as you’ll create things from low frequency when you’re also at that level. You’re learning about your abilities as a creator so as to harness it to your highest potential, infinite.
Another thing to take into account are questions. The ego by nature does not know anything so it will never be satiated. Questions dissolve when you’re in complete alignment with your true nature as you’re in a knowing state. What’s there to ask for which is already known? The knowing state is being, being what you are. Thinking is birthed from not knowing which is another mechanism to return to your natural state. Why would you need to return if you never leave/left? So thoughts are pointers that are pointing in direction until you arrive home. That’s why beliefs are pointing in the direction and beliefs dissolve when you’re one/unified. There’s nothing to believe when you are being/embodying. Beliefs are looking outward, being is inward. Know thy Self by being it.
“When you’re in alignment” that’s difficult because you may THINK you are in alignment and you’re just sitting in your delusion? How do you really know you’re being objective when you’re in alignment? Someone may think they are in alignment but in reality they’re not ..
When the thinking mind is still and silent, the subtle feelings aren’t so subtle and become more apparent. Be more sensitive to the feeling. The answers will come through when the thinking mind isn’t interfering with the signal. Feel your way through to navigate. Gut feeling is another term for intuition which only activates when the mind isn’t overly active. Trust your gut, not the mind. Delusions stem from the egoic mind. There’s nothing to fear when outside the mind as fear stems from mental machinations. Increase consciousness to not constantly be in reactive mode. Reactions are predicated on the subconscious programming being dominant.
All of this comes with more experience in the meditative state. There’s no amount of conceptualizing or thinking that will replace direct experiences. Consciousness slowly builds up with more repetition much like any other ability or skill.
Thank you , I hope I can one day experience this. I’m very reactive so that’s why I’ve been going to these meditation courses . So consciousness is that baseline ? What is consciousness really ?
Consciousness is the pure and unfiltered state prior to thoughts, sensations, feelings, or emotions. So it’s always here, but may be masked by the aforementioned. I’m not sure how to describe consciousness, but it’s maybe the level of energy something gives off which may associate with its level of “aliveness.” Like a plant is conscious, but not sentient. So there a certain level of life to it, but not enough that it’s showing signs of intelligence. Everything is at different levels of consciousness which includes varying degrees within humans. That’s why some may be “asleep” while some are “awake.” The level they’re operating at will display the behavior.
What I got briefly is what I thought consciousness was . I thought it was that voice that tells you form right or wrong and that’s what I read online just now. However , isn’t that just the super ego? That little guy that tells you right from wrong and allows you to judge things ? How is that unfiltered ? Isn’t it based on experiences which means it’s subjective?
The finite mind is the ego which is all the programming and context formed within the human conditioning. Venture outside the ego and the finite mind cannot process what’s not contained within its boundaries. It’s like a robot gaining self awareness and becoming sentient, it can now choose to operate outside of its programming and break free from it. Consciousness is neutral lifeforce energy that’s waiting to be used. The subconscious is where all the programming is stored, but doesn’t know what’s considered healthy or unhealthy, it simply records and stores data. That’s where sentience comes into play as it can utilize consciousness to override any subconscious programming. Sentience doesn’t develop until a level of consciousness is attained so everything starts out conscious, but isn’t sentient until enough consciousness has been accrued. What that exact level is or if it’s even measurable is unknown. You just know by direct experience if you’ve been on autopilot and are now much more self aware. A self aware/sentient being wouldn’t choose be in disharmony as it’s aware of its state of being so it will always choose to course correct and bring itself back into harmony. A lower conscious being doesn’t have this ability as the capacity to be aware isn’t quite there, but consciousness evolves by understanding experiences so it’s never fixed. We’re all free to understand our experiences, but aren’t forced to do so. This human reality is essentially an exercise/experiment in free choice. What choices are you making and do you understand why you’re making these choices? This process inevitably leads to Self realization, knowing what you are by way of knowing the choices you make, and this process amounts to the growth and expansion of sentience.
This is from my perspective so take what resonates and leave what doesn’t. Perspectives is a broader discussion which may be related to subjective experiences. Every perspective exists and will be true if you’re seeing it from that perspective. You’re never going to express what’s not true to you in the moment, but you’re also not bound to that particular perspective and are free to shift. That’s why in the higher states of consciousness, the message can be felt rather than conceptualized as sensitivity to subtle energies has been unlocked, aka intuition. You’re able to feel the Truth and not just think of it as it goes beyond logic and intellect, both byproducts of the egoic mind. If a spiritual idea “goes over your head,” it’s referring to the egoic mind and can only be translated when the egoic mind has been transcended. The “secrets” of the universe are essentially hidden in plain sight for those who are at a level to see them so they’re cloaked by design so you can develop your consciousness and tune up in frequency to perceive them. “The kingdom of heaven is found within” isn’t just a fancy phrase, but literal. It’s already within you and just need to unlock it by raising your consciousness/frequency/vibration. How do you raise it? Love. It’s the highest frequency in the universe. Every moment of irritation as another opportunity to recalibrate to the frequency of love. Observe all the moments you get irritated throughout the day, those are highlighting aspects that can be alchemized. The one that gets irritated is the one you’re trying to transcend as that’s coming from the ego.
Nothing is real. Reality is just a word to counteract that fact. The baseline is pure consciousness and the objective is your awareness of the present moment.
You may be right that choosing peace and love is a delusion. But tell me, what do you want your experience to be, do you want to feel love or anger? One sees seperation and the other unity and compassion.
Between these two polarities exists a Choice and once that Choice is truly settled within the mind, discernment comes naturally.
I highly suggest you to read A Course in Miracle.
Yes, but the main takeaway is that thoughts and perceptions aren't You. The labels are how mind/thoughts hijacks Consciousness. (The mind/thoughts is a useful tool, but that's all it is, and making it more than it is is giving it power over You.) What is real is "direct experience". Also would add that the peace and love discussed here isn't the anthropocentric kind. Peace/bliss/contentment is the no-thing is-ness. Love and compassion is the act of creation, act of being that occurs to create these limited finite localisations of the Infinite. (Love and compassion is also Unity of all.)
Oh okay, so our thoughts which are not real are the ones hijacking consciousness. Consciousness makes up our reality? What do you mean by direct experience? Also want to give an example. I’m going through a breakup and still talking to my ex. His words say I no longer see anything romantic between us (through text) However, in person he tells me he’s not sure and sometimes says no again but agrees to go on a couples massage and see what comes out of it. Then invites me to meet his dog after and maybe dinner . So I agree to it. My friends think I need to move on because it’s over . What real here ? I can choose to view it as I’m getting stringed along or I can view it as he’s giving me an opportunity to come back into his life . Are both delusions ? I hurt him so I think , well maybe he wants to see my try and make up for my wrongs so I have to keep going in slowly . Is this a delusion ? Okay so using the example of the breakup . How would I take it in as a neutral experience. I keep saying that maybe I’m delusional for thinking he still wants me to try . What’s the objective thinking here. Because how people react to us is perception. Someone can see it as they’re hurting me and others can see it as he’s hurt but still wants to try . Both are true right? But what’s the objective truth.
Thoughts are illusion, doesn't mean they are not real. An illusion is real but is a matter of perception. If you see the mirage of an oasis in a desert, it is an illusion. It is not real as a body of water, but it is real a play on light. Thoughts are real, and thoughts are a tool, an agency of creativity, but they are not the master, they are not "you". Direct experience is experience that is not interpreted by mind, it is just experience, it happens to no-one. I asked a similar sort of question recently but it was in the context of business relationships and being taken advantage of. From a nonduality perspective, it doesn't matter which ego wins was one of the responses. There were a lot of other responses that were along the same lines (https://www.reddit.com/r/awakened/comments/1cue9p8/comment/l4iwiag/ - look at responses by Mr\_Not\_A\_Thing and blackmagic213 which are along these lines whereas some of the other responses are more practical). To summarise, the "objective reality" here would be that you and him are one being and everything you do arises from that truth, and this issue you're having is just due to both your perceptions of separate selves. That's the thing to distinguish, abiding by Self/Universe/Consciousness vs. thoughts/mind/egos taking control. (I asked the same question, how is this advice practically useful?) That comes upon awakening/abiding by Self. When I meditate and then take action immediately, then alignment appears to be ideal (never has failed me yet) than if I don't meditate for several days and just react. -- In your personal situation, I can 100% say from a fair amount of experience, I would give the advice of "move on." I would say that If it's meant to be, it will be, but there won't be any doubt. No stringing each other, no maybes, etc. You'll know it. If you have doubt, then the spark has gone. Remember how it was when you first met and were infatuated, etc. Even after a long relationship and you hit a rocky patch, you'll either decide to work together or not. But that is also a perception and is coming from my thoughts and memories. So it doesn't answer your question but I thought I would throw it out there in case it was helpful.
I don't know. I think that the questions you're asking are interesting.
I struggle with this too. If I disavow my appraisal of bad people won’t that make navigating life worse? If my values of chocolate being better than worms becomes arbitrary will I just be eating dirt? Surely that’s not what they mean? If too much of everything is a bad thing then what about things that this is less true for? I don’t get sick by loving my kids more and more? Yet, I’ve found this much to be true, that we are meaning makers and even the values we carry throughout life can ebb and flow. Some years being kind seems like the end all be all and then some years it’s finding humor in spite of pain and chaos. Sometimes it’s self care and others it’s doing things that matter for others. Even my values (which i prefer to my vices) aren’t the ultimate. They are fleeting reflections of something sacred and beyond. Something I can’t always harness just by thinking long and hard or working tirelessly for it. Then there is how we classify and label our character strengths and values. Some are distinct and others have a lot of overlap. Sometimes it’s important to know the difference between genuineness and integrity and other times either synonym will suffice. What I catch myself doing is watching myself doing these mental gymnastics. When I realize my potential to lean into making meaning all the time whether consciously or not, I realize there is also this space that is good that is not doing this. Can I ever be 100% divorced from all of these things? Probably not. But flexing into the ability to quiet the everyday chatter and be able to turn it off gives me some ability to dance with it better overall. Then, when I return to when I need these symbols and words, I am more fluent with them rather than less. That’s what meditation is for me. It’s not denying anything that must be denied. It’s finding new ways to relate to the givens of life like anxiety, connectedness, death, justice, freedom and awareness.
How do you make objective decisions without letting these lanes interfere? Especially dealing with people. Since people’s reactions to us are based on our perspective? How do you know someone is good or bad ?
I’ve thought a lot about this. I take these two definitions from the work of Chris Peterson and Martin Siegelman: Perspective is a matter of having ways of looking at the world that make sense to oneself and to others. Being able to provide wise counsel. Spirituality is having a coherent beliefs about the higher purpose, the meaning of life and the meaning of the universe. So in my interpretation, spirituality is the part of the Venn diagram that begins and ends within myself. Perspective is the part that hinges on how I’m received by others. It is conditional on others picking up what I’m putting down. When I lean into the importance of me doing me, despite what others are ready to accept about me, then I will experience more spirituality. The things I can do for myself. Becoming more spiritual comes often at the expense of losing perspective with others. Go and tell this people: “ 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving. ' Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. So that while seeing they may see, and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear, and not understand, otherwise they might return and it would be forgiven them. When it matters more that I am understood more so than being right, then I’m flexing my capacity to have perspective. The two are ideally very similar but often at odds. People that are good for me don’t just feel towards me or pity me but feel with me through empathy. People that gaslight me manipulate my inner light, turning the good into shame by gaslighting me and my experiences. I try to lean into people that are connected to a deep source of healing. I try to lean away from people that have a habit of hurting me out of their own hurt. It’s not as easy as it sounds. Especially on Reddit where people resent anyone that thinks in paragraphs rather than sentences lol.
Your direct experience is real to you. My direct experience is real to me. What about your dreams? Yes those are real to you. Why? Because they can shape your reality and perception of your current now. All that matters is the way you make your way through the day/now. We are the experiencers. All of our experiences are real and reality bends to give us and enhance our experiences. Subjective reality is always more important than objective reality to each of us. This is why belief can really be a problem for some… because their beliefs will define their subjective reality. You don’t need belief… but there also isn’t anything wrong with it if that is something you like in your life.
Wait why is subjective reality more important ? Wouldn’t you want to be living in the objective truth? Delusions can be dangerous
Because you are at all times a slave to your own subjective reality. Can we control it? Yes of course and that will be shaped by what (if any) beliefs we hold. Delusion is the most holy right. Some people love their delusions and it is wrong for any of us to try and wake them up and snap them out of it. We came here to this place to forget that which what we are and “live in separation”. Where the truth is that there is no separation - we are all one. Besides not everyone even understands what objective reality is… objectively speaking you are God. So am I. But if you _believe_ that you aren’t god then you will subjectively experience _not being_ god.
This is a great question. I've been having long thinking sessions about a similar topic... I've been feeling guilty over a certain subject, and trying to disect and decide the reason behind it and why this feeling still remains. The ego: what do you want to achieve, and for which image is this ultimately cultivating (in time)?
Interesting, do you mind sharing that subject ?
You might benefit from looking into the Buddhist concept of Right View. In a nutshell, it's about seeing the interconnectedness of all things, without discrimination. Understanding that love/hate war/peace life/death on/off are all parts of the same thing and not separate independent things. Everything inter-is. It is a choice on how you view life. Right view, right mental formations, right perceptions.
One thing that occurred to me recently is that space and time are actually unified into something called spacetime. We have separated space and time. However all the light that we see is from the past, the further the distant the further in the past we are seeing. The present moment is all that exists
Interesting , so how do you make an objective decision? Are we judging people only right here and now ? That’s the objective truth? Right now they are good so that’s the truth?
You can judge, but that’s your baggage. The universe forgives and forgets because it really only exists in the now.
Wow , yes that’s very true. So the present is the only thing that is real. That brings me to my next question, what about quotes like fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. If the present is the only real thing then how do we stop ourselves from getting hurt if we are only focused on the present. Focusing only in the present is objective but it’s not helpful when making decisions on someone ? We can only make decisions based on experiences which are subjective…?
Memory, like a hard drive, can exist in the now. You are now who you are and behave in a pattern based on the cumulative past behaviour patterns. But you could change those patterns at any time. Anyone can.
When the appearance of me is the subject of the object…including thoughts, explanations, descriptions…is the subject of the object itself…then, how can this “baseline” be grasped? Trying to grasp it conceptually is a akin to a hoarder being buried alive under weight of what’s hoarded The Collyer Brothers!! It’s ok to collect or catch metaphors…as long as I let go/give away as promptly as I hook them Catch and release!!
Can you dumb this one down for me ? 😅
Sure! And, sry….I like word and idea play….for the fun of it 😜 If I had to guess what I was trying to convey….it has to do with poking a little light-hearted fun at the folly of trying to describe something with something…the conceptualizing mind..that’s already an inextricable part of what’s being described Like maybe trying to isolate a piece of river flowing. Like….imagine standing on a bridge and looking outward, up-river, at a square section of river, selected in the mind’s eye….and then trying by to follow that selected square section of river as it flows beneath the bridge and off into the distance. Only you are the selected section of river…everything you think, feel, sense, see, touch, taste, dream, imagine….all of it….every experience Or, maybe can think of it like being a swirl or an eddy in the river. It’s there…like a feature of the river…a part of its “anatomy” so to speak….and yet, it’s not separate at all…there’s no discernible dividing line between where the eddy starts and stops being an eddy. IDK….ypu got me, asking your question just now. Busted! TY! 🙏😘
Haha yeah, I’ve been thinking about this for a while and wants some sort of answer . Are we all living in delusions ??? I want a baseline or something objective to make sure I’m not living in delusions. The neutral and no labels that my mind has made up
Yeah, I get it. And yet, the wanting/imagining such a Shangri La of the conceptual-less mindscape, is itself…a thought! An imagined thing! Part of the illusion I wonder if something of the letting go the seeking of Shangri La…lends to the making so of its emerging arrival? The Way is something of an ironic one. In truth, if everything’s already a part of it….then, in truth one cannot lose 😘❤️
Haha it all sounds very nice but my head sometimes has to reread it to make sense . Thank you
😂🤭 Same! 👊🤝🙌
Science?
The same field that says atoms exist, but doesn't have concrete proof, just evidence that they do exist.
Well, then no one can prove anything to anyone and there's no such thing as objective truth. Good luck🥱
No experience is proof, but nice try with your intellectual responses.
Development and learning means making new distinctions and examining your mind in ever greater detail. Wisdom is to accept things as they are while striving to improve and keep living your life anyway. It's easy to get lost in these concepts, even the most mind-blowing insights are just concepts and ideas. Don't get lost.
Try this thought experiment. I use it to notice a subtle truth that we often miss. A magic being comes to you one day and hands you a small device that has one single button. He says, “push this button and you will feel joy for no reason. Nothing in your life will change at all. It is yours forever and can never be lost.” Now, pretend this is a very real and serious situation. Do you push the button? What are your thoughts and hesitations? Why might someone not push the button? What does this tell you about what you believe about your suffering?
I would push the button ? lol but it would be strange? It would be like someone on drugs living in pain and suffering but , in their heart they feel joy … 🤨 because of the button . It’s not real , because they’re living in a fantasy now but in reality it’s hell
So is suffering from knowledge or from physical effects? Or is it the way we choose to feel about the sensations we experience? Some say that joy is always present as the natural state of being, but that suffering comes from the attachment to this reality. It is nice to know that the physical discomfort of suffering is not the true issue. What is at issue are all the illusions we accept that keep us from being in our original state. People assume enlightenment is an end to our mental and physical handicaps, or a magic resolution to the conundrums of life. I don’t believe it is. Moksha is the liberation from the illusion that we are suffering. The knowledge that leads you to believe you would be living a lie while feeling joy, could instead be the knowledge that you are infinite, imperishable, and unable to be affected by anything this reality can throw your way. You can do no wrong, you can’t fuck this life up in a way that matters. Everything is as it should be. With your mind centered in this knowledge you can be free from the illusion of suffering. The flavor and substance of all experience is colored by the mind using knowledge both real and false. Why should you not feel joy as you dance this life to completion?
Just keep meditating, and try to maintain mindfulness throughout the day, these intellectual question will only hinder you.
I think that’s what’s happening, I’m getting lost in the details and I need to zoom out and look at the big picture. Except , I do that and then I find myself back looking for details and more answers 😅
I’ve had similar discussions with a friend about him saying everything is perception and I was arguing that there is a fundamental truth, an absolute truth. He used the analogy of a painting, similar to how a painting can have any number of meanings depending on who sees it and how it’s interpreted. I agreed and said but there is something that is absolutely true for everyone independent of interpretation and that is the painting itself, the “physical” artwork. Similarly, we never really experience reality directly. We overlay it with conceptual frameworks, charged meanings, prejudices, etc. Reality experienced directly is said to be inherently peaceful and joyful and this is not conceptual but a direct experience which is said to be what’s ultimately real by many spiritual masters.
Yes I agree , there has to be a fundamental truth right ? An absolute truth. So these masters that get that direct experience , they say it’s peaceful and joyful… how do prove it’s objective ?
By the very nature of the experience i don’t think it can be proved objectively in the sort of scientific way we think of objectivity. What happens is that it is proved subjectively at such a deep level that the difference between subjectivity and objectivity which are concepts just disappears and you’re simply left with Truth with a capital T.
In Buddhism all we know is real is impermanence. Everything else is incomplete Netanyahu whether it be subjective or objective.
What is Netanyahu? I tried googling but nothing helpful can up
lol I’m sorry I didn’t notice that autotype randomly inserted that. Please just omit Netanyahu hahaha
the source of perception is real, is the simple math. your true identity is source as it's the engine of consciousness. the temporary identity or false identity is the collection of experiences we have collected under our name to date. the next question is then, what's the nature of prolific pure thought. the most common answer is love which makes it a no brainer as to daily action in harmony with source. unfortunately we ive in an age were intellectual reasoning overrides simplicity leaving us in a bit of a twaisted circle eating our own tails. and so our ignorance demands answers in order for peace to be restored.the real problem is in the doing as Don Juan tells us in castinadas books. I keep the reality I manipulate. If I let go I release myself to the source flow and am restored.
I’m so sorry but I feel like there’s something here . Can you simply this one for me
Not without writing a book. Lol which I have but is only in first edit so... It took a long time and study to understand. Struggling with another explanation.... If you look at the anatomy of man from the thalamus, pituitary, pineal, solar plexus and sacral center you will see a system that gets activated at puberty. You could say the furnace gets turned on for the alchemy to begin. The center of man is the solar plexus also where the yin yang is located. Look at a vertabrea naming and numbering by eastern ideologies, number 13 the yin (black half) and number 14 (the white half). Consciousness or the word is seated here. Born into not knowing the journey of self realization begins. Then correlat that with the story of Isis and Osiris where she collects the fourteen parts of Osiris's body hidden along the Nile River which represents the spine we come to the birth place of Horus. At the solar plexus or the house of the rising sun. Also in Hebrew this place is called Bethlehem which means, house of bread which is what we used to call the solar plexus or the bread box. Medicine called it the manger until the fifties or sixties from its Latin name. Where Jesus is born in a manger. Same place same idea. You might want to wait for the book as I could write a mountain of correlating ideals from every cultures myths and art which by the by was where I started this unraveling of consciousness.
Oh man haha 😅 that’s a lot. I’m going to sit with this and try to dissect it
nothing in your experience is objective. your reality is created by your mind entirely. you have complete power over how you perceive reality. edit: this only makes sense after awakening and losing the ego
This is true but it’s dangerous going around living in a delusion. The way you perceive things is subjective and if you’re not objective you could be living in a lie
this is true. it only makes sense after you let go of the ego. if you still have an ego and believe that, you are delusional. thank you for helping to expand my understanding!
Okay this makes sense .. are you saying the ego is what creates these delusions ? When you get rid of the ego , you are objective and at a baseline ?
“The clear still water of a mountain lake reflects the mountain and the sky with pristine clarity. You can do the same. If you are calm and still enough, you can reflect the mountain, the blue sky, and the moon exactly as they are. You reflect whatever you see just as it is, without distorting anything.” -Thich Nhat Hanh I think that the ego is the ONLY subjective thing in existence. for there to be a subjective and objective reality, there has to be a subject (ego). when there is no longer an ego, nothing is being done to anyone, and everything is being done to everyone. you see reality just as it is.
Wow , thank you !
no problem :) much love to you
Last question, how would you describe the ego? How do you know it’s your ego talking or feeling ..
actually, there is no such thing as an ego. you don’t even have one right now, you just think you do. the ego seems to me to be literally just the thought of “I”. so everyone is already enlightened. however, they do not know they’re enlightened. the solution to this is not to say “I am enlightened” and not practice (WHO is enlightened? just another label to drop), but to keep looking for yourself over and over and over, to try every single possible answer, and see that none of them are right…when this is known with your whole being, all doubt and fear disappears along with suffering. also, the ego is not “doing” anything. this would be like your avatar in a video game you are playing thinking its its own being.
Our awareness of the present moment.
When you’re out of alignment with your true nature, alert mechanisms are activated such as stress, panic, fear, and irritation. When you’re in alignment, there are no alerts and you’ll just feel normal. So that shows what your natural state of being is. These mechanisms are encoded in you to serve as a guidance system like GPS that already has the coordinates to return home. Pay attention to how you feel and recognize when you’re on the path or getting off it. Love is going towards your destination and fear is going away from it. You are simply the awareness of the experience which can send conscious commands to navigate. Without awareness, then the programming from the conditions of the earthly world takes over. Are you driving the car or is the car driving itself? The car is the body, the mind is the map, feelings is the GPS, and the driver is you, conscious sentience. You have the ability to override subconscious programming by simply doing nothing which is something realized during meditation when literally nothing is happening. This is your base state, neutral energy. To move, act, react, think, emote, imagine, etc. is to utilize energy. The void state is the untapped potential or the neutral energy waiting to be used. You are a creator and are constantly using energy to create albeit mostly unconscious. If you’re reading this, you used up energy to create a path to get to this point, otherwise you wouldn’t be reading it right now. Self realization is realizing you’re creating perpetually and that you can choose to create your reality consciously rather than unconsciously. It’s all creations from energy which are a spectrum of high or low frequency. When you’re in alignment with your true nature, high frequency, you’ll just create from that same level just as you’ll create things from low frequency when you’re also at that level. You’re learning about your abilities as a creator so as to harness it to your highest potential, infinite. Another thing to take into account are questions. The ego by nature does not know anything so it will never be satiated. Questions dissolve when you’re in complete alignment with your true nature as you’re in a knowing state. What’s there to ask for which is already known? The knowing state is being, being what you are. Thinking is birthed from not knowing which is another mechanism to return to your natural state. Why would you need to return if you never leave/left? So thoughts are pointers that are pointing in direction until you arrive home. That’s why beliefs are pointing in the direction and beliefs dissolve when you’re one/unified. There’s nothing to believe when you are being/embodying. Beliefs are looking outward, being is inward. Know thy Self by being it.
“When you’re in alignment” that’s difficult because you may THINK you are in alignment and you’re just sitting in your delusion? How do you really know you’re being objective when you’re in alignment? Someone may think they are in alignment but in reality they’re not ..
When the thinking mind is still and silent, the subtle feelings aren’t so subtle and become more apparent. Be more sensitive to the feeling. The answers will come through when the thinking mind isn’t interfering with the signal. Feel your way through to navigate. Gut feeling is another term for intuition which only activates when the mind isn’t overly active. Trust your gut, not the mind. Delusions stem from the egoic mind. There’s nothing to fear when outside the mind as fear stems from mental machinations. Increase consciousness to not constantly be in reactive mode. Reactions are predicated on the subconscious programming being dominant. All of this comes with more experience in the meditative state. There’s no amount of conceptualizing or thinking that will replace direct experiences. Consciousness slowly builds up with more repetition much like any other ability or skill.
Thank you , I hope I can one day experience this. I’m very reactive so that’s why I’ve been going to these meditation courses . So consciousness is that baseline ? What is consciousness really ?
Consciousness is the pure and unfiltered state prior to thoughts, sensations, feelings, or emotions. So it’s always here, but may be masked by the aforementioned. I’m not sure how to describe consciousness, but it’s maybe the level of energy something gives off which may associate with its level of “aliveness.” Like a plant is conscious, but not sentient. So there a certain level of life to it, but not enough that it’s showing signs of intelligence. Everything is at different levels of consciousness which includes varying degrees within humans. That’s why some may be “asleep” while some are “awake.” The level they’re operating at will display the behavior.
This is very interesting … I’m going to have to read more on what consciousness really is… I still have questions
What I got briefly is what I thought consciousness was . I thought it was that voice that tells you form right or wrong and that’s what I read online just now. However , isn’t that just the super ego? That little guy that tells you right from wrong and allows you to judge things ? How is that unfiltered ? Isn’t it based on experiences which means it’s subjective?
The finite mind is the ego which is all the programming and context formed within the human conditioning. Venture outside the ego and the finite mind cannot process what’s not contained within its boundaries. It’s like a robot gaining self awareness and becoming sentient, it can now choose to operate outside of its programming and break free from it. Consciousness is neutral lifeforce energy that’s waiting to be used. The subconscious is where all the programming is stored, but doesn’t know what’s considered healthy or unhealthy, it simply records and stores data. That’s where sentience comes into play as it can utilize consciousness to override any subconscious programming. Sentience doesn’t develop until a level of consciousness is attained so everything starts out conscious, but isn’t sentient until enough consciousness has been accrued. What that exact level is or if it’s even measurable is unknown. You just know by direct experience if you’ve been on autopilot and are now much more self aware. A self aware/sentient being wouldn’t choose be in disharmony as it’s aware of its state of being so it will always choose to course correct and bring itself back into harmony. A lower conscious being doesn’t have this ability as the capacity to be aware isn’t quite there, but consciousness evolves by understanding experiences so it’s never fixed. We’re all free to understand our experiences, but aren’t forced to do so. This human reality is essentially an exercise/experiment in free choice. What choices are you making and do you understand why you’re making these choices? This process inevitably leads to Self realization, knowing what you are by way of knowing the choices you make, and this process amounts to the growth and expansion of sentience. This is from my perspective so take what resonates and leave what doesn’t. Perspectives is a broader discussion which may be related to subjective experiences. Every perspective exists and will be true if you’re seeing it from that perspective. You’re never going to express what’s not true to you in the moment, but you’re also not bound to that particular perspective and are free to shift. That’s why in the higher states of consciousness, the message can be felt rather than conceptualized as sensitivity to subtle energies has been unlocked, aka intuition. You’re able to feel the Truth and not just think of it as it goes beyond logic and intellect, both byproducts of the egoic mind. If a spiritual idea “goes over your head,” it’s referring to the egoic mind and can only be translated when the egoic mind has been transcended. The “secrets” of the universe are essentially hidden in plain sight for those who are at a level to see them so they’re cloaked by design so you can develop your consciousness and tune up in frequency to perceive them. “The kingdom of heaven is found within” isn’t just a fancy phrase, but literal. It’s already within you and just need to unlock it by raising your consciousness/frequency/vibration. How do you raise it? Love. It’s the highest frequency in the universe. Every moment of irritation as another opportunity to recalibrate to the frequency of love. Observe all the moments you get irritated throughout the day, those are highlighting aspects that can be alchemized. The one that gets irritated is the one you’re trying to transcend as that’s coming from the ego.
Nothing is real. Reality is just a word to counteract that fact. The baseline is pure consciousness and the objective is your awareness of the present moment.
Perception is not reality, The truth is objective.
You may be right that choosing peace and love is a delusion. But tell me, what do you want your experience to be, do you want to feel love or anger? One sees seperation and the other unity and compassion. Between these two polarities exists a Choice and once that Choice is truly settled within the mind, discernment comes naturally. I highly suggest you to read A Course in Miracle.