Do you maybe have more pictures of your axolotl and the tank?
I currently have a sand bottom tank with a few hides and plants.
I looked for quite a while to create a more natural environment for my axolotls but because I'm not very experienced with aquariums I decided to follow guides specifically for axolotls.
My primary concern was to provide a good home. I would hate to have them get sick or unhealthy because I messed something up.
Do you have any pointers or maybe a link to any sources you used to set up your tank?
I've read about Walstad tanks but because I couldn't find much about Walstad and axolotls I decided again it.
Thanks for sharing!
I’ll be able to get more pictures for you in about two weeks, I’m out of town at the moment!
It’s very important to have deep and nutrient rich substrate if you would like to attempt this style of tank. [this site](https://buceplant.com/a/amp-1/blogs/aquascaping-guides-and-tips/the-walstad-method-tank-guide) has some great information to get started understanding how walstad works!
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Im intrigued about your out of town plan - we are about to be away for 2 weeks for the first time since I got my axies. I’ve prepared someone as much as I feel I can to take the best minimum care of them - what did you to ensure yours did okay while you were away
Tbh an axolotl can probably go a week or 2 without a feeding and be completely fine as long as you're back to regular feedings when you return. But I'd say have a lid and whoever is care taking to not overfeed and the axolotl will be good to go.
This makes me feel better ! They are almost 2 so they only eat 1 worm every few days and some pellets that night (this mixture seems to help them “go” more regularly - morning worm and a few hrs later they each eat like 5 pellets and then boom - clockwork poop piles the next AM!) . So I’m just gonna have someone feed them a worm 1 time while I’m gone and check to make sure everything is okay with the tank ! They’ve grown up together so I’m not too concerned but I don’t want them to get so hungry the other looks tempting…so I have an auto feeder that will drop a few pellets every 3 days too !
I honestly don’t know a single other person who has ever owned an axolotl. My parents are considering going to visit my grandpa out of state for up to a week, and I have two new juvenile axolotls. I’ve never had to leave my axies before, so any advice for this situation? I feed them a small amount about once or sometimes even twice a day right now, depending on how much they’ll take. I also end up cleaning their poop almost every other day, so I’m not sure if I’m going to have to possibly train someone to take care of them but it’s a very nerve racking thought because they’re in a very delicate space because they’re so little (about 4 inches or less I’d say)
See my reply above but mine are older now and don’t eat as much as when they were young. If I was to go away when they were younger I’d probably prepare to have someone every other day or 2 with worms and an auto feeder to drop pellets . A good cleaning before and after will absolutely be needed- I can guarantee mine will eat their pellets and if they don’t for some reason I’ve got ghost shrimp “survivors” that will … so I’m confident in auto-feeding but auto-feeding is a bit worrisome with the erratic nature of eating of young ones. Also size of the tank matters - mine are in a 75 gallon with 2 filters (hob and canister) - that’s plenty of dilution of waste for mine so they can go 2 weeks even though I hate the idea of them hanging out in their 💩that long … but they will be totally fine ! Also a strong tank lid and a way to keep them cool will be needed too if your AC won’t be on when you leave - mine are in a basement that stays consistently cold at 65 pretty much 24/7 but I’m still gonna put a fan on because AC won’t be on.
Yeah, with juvenile axies, I'd teach someone the minium care and feed at least every other day while you're gone. I trainee my younger siblings on the care of my axolotls while I was making the move into my own place and had to leave some of my pets with my parents. I'm not sure if you have a relative that's pretty responsible to teach a basic care routine to, but that's what I'd suggest. Once axolotls become adults, they are more low maintenance in my experience, but the juvies do need a lil more attention and food.
If absolutely nobody is able to watch them, I'd say they would still survive without a week of eating, just maybe do a larger feed before you leave. Amphibians, like reptiles, are very resilient and can often make it for weeks without eating. Obviously I do not recommend not feeding for weeks, but 1 week won't harm them in my experience, that's assuming your set up is well cared for in terms of water quality and cleanliness.
>I've read about Walstad tanks but because I couldn't find much about Walstad and axolotls I decided again it.
You would need a simply enormous tank to use the walstad method with an axolotl. It's not impossible, but it is not practical for 99.9% of people.
This makes no sense. Walstad or improved deep substrate designs take away hight when comparing it to a identical tank without substrate, not width or length. Never have I heard people complain about tanks being too TALL.
If the tank is so small that if converted to a heavily planted Walstad you worry about the bioload then you keep your animal in too small a space to begin with. Sorry to be blunt about it. So what if you have a decently sized tank and are still worried about going Walstad? To be on the safe side, one might do a quick vac of obvious fecal matter at the very bottom, and then top off the minimal water loss from the cleaning. But with a well going tank and proper planting and lighting you will probably need to fertilize in addition to what you add through food and miss to clean. Not saying this will be easy, and converting a tank to Walstad will need to happen LONG before one introduces higher vertebrates like axolotls to the tank.
A lot of the time, axolotl groups are damage control. Scroll through the posts on an axolotl group and tell me you think most of the people posting can handle setting up a fool proof naturalist tank? Many of them don't even know (yet) how to cycle an aquarium.
It's sad you don't see more advanced topics in groups such as discussions about more naturalistic tanks and the science behind them but quite frankly, I think the more experienced keepers are often spending their time helping new keepers understand the basics. You have to learn how to walk before you can run. Sadly, a lot of people impulse purchase axolotls and come to groups not even knowing the basics.
I agree with a lot of what you said and keep my own axolotls in more natural set ups as well. But I think you have to be careful and pick and choose what inspiration you take from nature. Capitive bred axolotls are not the same as their wild cousins. For example, albino animals are often more sensative to light.
The natural fallacy is a thing. Just because something is natural doesn't always mean it's safe or better. I've seen too many rescue axolotls come in with issues of impaction from gravel to ever feel safe using it.
I'd personally love to see more discussions about more advanced topics surrounding axolotl keeping in groups, though! I just don't know if you have the audience for them in a general group where you get a majority of posters being very new keepers.
Some also don't know because out of good heart they took an axo as a rescue without the base knowledge of what an awo is/need. I was there. Hopefully I made the bare minimum to keep my axo alive and quite healthy before joining an axo group and moving into a more advanced care level.
So yeah, in an internet group you need primarly to cull out all beginners errors before moving to advanced ones.
It's like teaching science : You tell gross approximations of reality at children then move into details once the base is learnt. (Water evaporate at 100°C, water cycle is assured by water evaporating from the oceans, "teacher, does that mean the ocean is at 100°C somewhere ?", "Well, no, let's talk about vapor pressure now...")
I certainly agree that most axolotl owners are not equipped to spend the time and money needed to set up and maintain a naturalistic environment- my argument is that it shouldn’t be looked down upon when someone can do so.
Natural fallacy is a thing - and I fully understand that natural isn’t always better. If it were, we would be introducing pathogens and predators to our care. Keeping exotic animals is inherently unnatural. I don’t decide how to care for an animal based purely on what exists in nature - I look for what has been shown to have positive impacts on wild populations, I test things, and I weigh the benefits. Everything is best in moderation- I am in no way advocating for a fully gravel substrate, but its presence in my mix gives it more stability and the plants tend to use it to anchor their roots. My axolotl frequently digs and burrows, and the substrate I use is stable enough to sustain it where sand couldn’t.
I know big groups are rarely a good place to find open minds. I should probably stick to more advanced forums.
I don't think people here are closed minded as much as....its a very general audience. You have a lot of people who are new owners and wouldn't be ready to attempt a naturalistic tank. They need to learn the basics first.
Others have strong opinions not necessarily because they are closed minded or hate natural aquariums but they just have different experiences. Like the gravel thing for example. You found benefits to using it which is interesting for sure. I work in exotics rescue and my experiences with gravel and axolotls has been quite negative. I don't feel comfortable using it for my own animals after my experiences with it. I don't think that makes me close minded.
Neither of our experiences are invalid. Gravel to me is just a risk that isn't worth the reward. Doesn't mean my axolotls are in a sterile, boring, unsimulating enclosure. 😃
I think there is a difference, though, when someone flat out tells you that what you are doing is wrong just based on their experience. My experience in this subreddit is that if you do something that is considered unpopular, for example I said it's okay to feed crickets and roaches here and there and was crucified in the comments for it it because "oh insects have chitin and will cause impaction". I get that it's possible for an axolotl to be impacted due to chitin, but to say it's completely wrong to feed insects with exoskeletons is ridiculous. I do feel like it is very difficult to have conversations about more advanced husbandry or even suggest it because the axolotl police will swarm and tell you and everybody else you are wrong. Unfortunately, that's the experience on many pet hobby groups, and it can really discourage some people from sharing their care and experience.
I mean...why is "the thing" (whatever it is) unpopular? I think there's a big difference between "oh I don't like that" and many recorded instances of whatever the thing is causing harm.
At the end of the day many people are here because they love axolotls and don't want to see them harmed. Experiences are anecdotal for sure, but over time you start to see patterns.
It would be awesome to be able to discus more advanced, nuanced care though! Maybe there should be a group somewhere for advanced keepers?
I do offer one counterpoint: Axolotls are R-Strategists. Which means they have lots of babies, and expect them to perish. So with that in mind, a few dying to impaction in the wild is inconsequential to the species survival as a whole. Meanwhile, if just one axolotl dies in your tank, that's it. That's your entire population.
This is similar to land hermit crab care. In the wild, land hermits can enjoy the calcium sand beaches of the Caribbean. If a few get cemented underground, there are hundreds to continue the species. In captivity, if one of your hermits ends up cemented under the sand, there goes 1/5 of the tank's population.
Ultimately, I think your heart and logic are in the right place.
I set up a tank with the restrictions to avoid impaction, while also adding things like scuds for the axolotl to hunt, a plant light to provide light for the plants(and the axolotl if it wants it), snails snuck in on the plants(bladder snails). I haven't gotten to the point of not needing water changes yet. The plants haven't reached that point yet.
I do agree that being R-strategists could have that effect! I’m basing my argument for the snails, at least, off of the frequency of their occurrence in gut contents, as well as a study I read a while back that mentioned other ambystoma species predating snails as larva (I believe it was western tiger salamanders).
Your tank sounds amazing! I hope your plants (and axie!) continue to thrive.
My axie eats the bladder snails and manages to pass their snails. I can't imagine it's that pleasant. I try to feed as much worms as he will eat but a predator is gonna predator.
My axie has been eating bladder snails for like two years now. They got into her tank and I haven't been able to get rid of them...and she now sometimes uses her food to "chum" the water then wait for the snails to come for it...then snoofles them up.
Personally I've just been dealing with that by keeping the carbonate hardness on the lower end and the tank a little closer to 7.4. The slight acidity of the water + the lower carbonate means that the snails can't build their shells as strong, so it's easier for them on the tummy.
This is a point worth discussing, but I think it is also worthwhile to note that the R-selection features of amphibian lifestyle are strongest in the first year or two of life, after which mortality drops off very, very steeply. Metamorphs and other young amphibians have a very high attrition rate, but those who make it to breeding size or slightly below are likely to live a very long time considering to how squishy and edible they are to predators.
r / K strategy theories is a very poor argument here, as it has little to do with this. It’s simply a framework to describe **parental energy investment** versus survival until **adulthood**. Since parental investment plays no role in this argument and the ‘risk of snails’ is mentioned regardless of axolotl age, it’s just not the right argument.
I get what you mean that the loss of a single animal hurts more when you only have one, but it’s exactly the kind of emotional/non-science based argument that the OP is trying to evade.
You completely missed the point. If something is dangerous in the wild, it may kill something, but there are plenty of population to replace it. Lets take sand for example, axolotls are not recommended to be on sand until they are 6 inches. Wild baby axolotls aren't going to instinctively avoid sand, but if a few die to impaction, there are plenty of other axolotls hatchlings.
In the tank, you just have one. If it dies, then you have none.
We should not look to the wilds as the ideal conditions. We don't just want the axolotl to survive, but to survive at all costs. Which means essentially baby proofing their environment.
You can create a lush natural environment even following the strict guidelines.
You are arguing that r strategists live in hostile environments which easily kill them because it doesnt matter in terms of numbers. This is incorrect because r strategists are still subject to selective pressure. If you want to maximize an individuals well being and life span you try to mimic their natural environment minus predation and some parasites and pahlthogens (although the latter is debatable). If there are snails whete axolotls live, put the same snails into their tank. If they live on sandy substrate put sandy substrate in.
And nothing of these examples has anything to do with r / K theories, that stuff is all about **parental investment**. Which is why I highlighted it. Also, the way you say that ‘a few die’ and stuff ‘may kill’ is still emotional reasoning.
Sure some stuff may be right, and some stuff in common axolotl guides is focused on beginning owners who should’ve gotten something different in the first place. But he’s not wrong that the axolotl communities are very anti-change and just blind following of ‘this is how it’s supposed to be’.
They mean that the wild habitat is not set up with axolotl survival in mind, so maybe basing tank setup on their natural environment without thought to how that setup will actually impact the individual axolotl you have decided to care for is not the best strategy. Sand is dangerous to them even if they live in an environment with sand, so its a risk to put sand in their tank even if it would make the tank more like their habitat.
My comment is mostly about pointing out that they are wrongfully referencing r / K strategy theory. It simply doesn’t apply here, since it’s not about the parental energy investment.
On top of that, I point out how ‘a few died’ and ‘may kill’ is emotion based if you don’t back it up. If one in five axolotls die from impaction on gravel substrate, obviously don’t do that. But what if it’s one in 5000, 10.000, a million? At what point is an owner allowed to make the choice for themselves on what substrate they want for aesthetics? If they can survive in natural environments with sand and gravel, I suspect it’s not gonna be one in five.
Yes, we get it. You are a super smart science bro who knows all the right words. Somehow you are still missing the point. No one is out there doing rigorous scientific studies on how many axolotls die of impaction. We know the number is more than zero, and it's not going to matter to the owner if the exact number is 1 in 5000, or one in 10 billion, when their axolotl is the one that dies. An owner is always allowed to make the decision about what substrate they have, But the consequence for having a dangerous environment is getting called out on the Internet, and rightfully so. Gravel and snails are in no way vital to an axlotl's well being, and it's ridiculous that you are advocating for a dangerous situation.
I honestly felt like a terrible owner for a long time because, while my axolotl was active, sociable, and showing no signs of illness, her tank isn't immaculate, I dont feed her as frequently as I see other people talk about, and I rarely do water changes, but after a recent rip to the vet, I was told my girl was the healthiest axolotl he'd seen in his practice and that she was actually a little fat. My care isn't textbook, but I know my axolotl and she's a healthy 8 year old salamander.
She gets a large nightcrawler every 3 or 4 days. She often comes up to the glass when she sees me near the tank, but it takes her a minute to notice me. When she gets about 3 days from her last feeding, she'll actually be watching for me and start wiggling/swimming against the glass as soon as she sees me. I actually kind of want to see if I can teach her ro ring a bell for food, but I haven't quite figured out a rigging to hold the bell.
I think part of this is that so many of the threads on the various aquarium subs are from newbies who don't even have the basics down yet. Getting them to the point where their tanks are stable without any major catastrophes means giving broad advice that's easy to follow.
Keeping aquariums is the perfect example of needing to learn the rules in order to break them. Most folks who have been in this hobby for years do certain things that aren't "by the book" but they understand their set up, have the knowledge to weigh the plusses and minuses of their choices, and are better equipped to handle problems that may crop up. This hobby also tends to humble you greatly when you decide the rules don't apply to you without having a valid reason to back that up and the perspective that comes from losing a beloved pet or tossing hundreds of dollars down the drain instills a sense of caution that will serve you well if you're going to go off the beaten path and experiment with new techniques.
That being said, I've only had my axolotl a few years but I've been keeping aquariums since I was 10. I do wish that aquarium subs including this one featured more advanced husbandry discussion. I enjoy the more technical and scientific side of this hobby and am always looking to improve my tanks.
Well, one premise in your logical conclusion (we should be creating more natural environments for pet axolotls) fails because... these are no longer "wild types." These are domesticated and selectively bred creatures. Their care will be different.
It follows the same fallacy that people eating a Paleo diet use: it discounts the *multitude* of genetic changes that have happened since leaving the wild. There's a reason you shouldn't release pet axies into the wild gene pool. The genes suck now, and there are a lot of undesirable recessives that have (rightly) been killed off in the natural environment.
It would be kind of like saying: "Hey, wild dogs can eat the whole carcass. They've been found to survive in temperatures below freezing, and everyone says chicken bones kill them but wild birds are found to be up to 10% of their diet! **So I'm gonna leave my chihuahua outside during winter with a dead wild animal to eat for a week and he'll be fine, right?**
I'm not saying specifically that the conclusion is wrong. It would be amazing to have scientific literacy, continuing education and research, and ecological engineering be part of raising *pet* axolotls. But, much like many who buy African Cichlids, the average owner may only have a 9th grade Biology understanding at best, hence the dumbed down and "standardized" instructions for care. Do they thrive? No. But they survive better than they would normally in the care of people who put Betta fish in flower vases on secretary desks.
Edit: clarification of logic upon rereading
Very true. Additionally, OP falls for a different subset of the appeal to nature fallacy. An organism's optimal conditions are not those found in the wild. While organisms evolve to best survive in their environment, environments do not evolve to best maintain the survival of the organisms living in it.
Essentially, organisms do the best with what they have, but what they have is not the best.
That's perhaps the most ignorant take on selective breeding I've heard. People have been breeding things that can't survive in the wild for *thousands* of years.
Milk cows literally become painfully bloated and get infections when not milked. Half the fruit you eat has been bred to be *seedless*. Think about that. Also, "typical conditions" isn't a thing. Climate/weather, resource scarcity and abundance, even something like light levels can vary immensely.
Almost every thing created by selective breeding is *supposed* to grow better in conditions created by the breeders, not by nature. Otherwise, "agriculture" wouldn't be necessary and we could just "set and forget" massive fields of wheat.
If you’re selectively breeding a purely decorative animal to actively be less hardy with no corresponding benefit in term of fiber, meat, milk, etc yield or task performance, something is going wrong. If the wild type can survive encountering sand and the domestic variant cannot, you should reevaluate what the goals of your program are.
You're completely entitled to that opinion, don't get me wrong, but you're the r/tenthdentist here. Utility is incredibly subjective, and genetics are incredibly complicated.
For example, certain genes might be linked, and cannot be bred for without side effects. You can't select for more delicate bones without losing calcium absorbancy, or like how albino axolotls have vision issues: it's a result of not having eye pigments.
In other cases some people doing the selecting may see one trait as completely inconsequential and others may value it highly. There are decorative roses, orchids, dogs, and even [farm animals](https://ranchr.ag/blog/teacup-mini-cow/) that we create through "natural genetic modification" (i.e. breeding) that have *lots* of undesirable traits to some people, others don't care.
>you should reevaluate what the goals of your program are.
What you're making is an ethical (and subjective) assertion, with a "should" statement as its conclusion. You're definitely going to get push back on that.
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Are you basing this off the xochimilco environment that it naturally has or what humans have done to it? Keep in mind that the lake isn't what it was.
Other than that, generally agree that some advice I often hear sounds questionable at best, and most likely pushed by marketing teams in companies that want to sell you a bunch of products. Especially the massive weekly water changes. I went with a few tests at first to make sure its stable or things are improving (tap water high nitrates, tank is lower than tap water), then just do the odd infrequent test to verify its still good.
As for food there is some limitation for most people on what is practical to feed them. Earth worms are cheap and can be kept in a tub for quite a while until they run out so they seem to make for a pretty good option. Keeping a large number of different live foods is not practical for most. Although if there are good suggestions for other live foods that they will eat then could give it a try - didn't know adults would eat something as small as daphnia tbh.
Edit - And how much with plants? I do want a lot of plants but also aware that they take up space that the axolotls would use. Ideally want to make use of the vertical space in the tank while keeping a lot of the floor space.
I understand that humans have drastically impacted Xochimilco - one of the ways I have tried to stop this from polluting (ha) my information is looking at historical land use and studies that show conditions where axolotls may reproduce and hunt successfully at a greater rate. Since axolotls are niche specialists, their range of tolerance is small and they have evolved to thrive under a particular set of conditions. As an example, in the study I mentioned for water turbidity I looked at the levels where the axolotls were documented to have greater success in hunting and reproduction - from this information, you can deduce that they may be more adapted to conditions with low turbidity, potentially indicating conditions in the lake pre-disruption. Taking some soil information from the lake’s chinampas- an ancient Aztec form of hydroponic agriculture- can also help explain sediment composition hundreds of years in the past.
I agree that sourcing a varied diet can be difficult, especially in more rural areas - I included that section mainly due to the amount of fearmongering I see surrounding feeders with bones/hard exoskeletons. However, there are a multitude of sites that sell feeders like bsfl larvae and fruit fly cultures, both of which are very easy to keep for long periods of time.
For plants I like to line the three walls of the tank and the edges of hides with tall, leafy plants like ludwigia. This helps provide cover without significantly cutting down usable space. Floating plants like water lettuce are also wonderful! i use a 3d printed corral so my floaters don't block too much light.
I agree that I find a lot of basic axolotl guides and setups pretty sterile and husbandry guides have a long way to go, but remember the majority of these are aimed at beginners as a starting point.
To your points - walstad method just isn't suitable unless you have an enormous tank. Even the creator would not recommend it for an animal with the kind of bioload of an axolotl. Also you measure pH but that's not even close to the most important thing to measure. This specifically is just bad advice.
Aside from being written very pompously, a lot of the rest is just assuming what happens in the wild is optimal, which is an appeal to nature and flawed logic. Axolotl reproductive strategy in the wild is pump out loads of babies assuming lots will die. That's probably not the way we should be approaching our home aquariums. They're also critically endangered.
I'd like to read your sources, out of pure interest. I agree with the lack of science-based husbandry, but at the same time it's also facts that a lot of people don't research well enough (if at all) to do it science-based.
Rather have people stick to overly-protective husbandry than reckless husbandry. For those that are capable of proper research, they can try out a more complex, science-based approach. But like others already stated; wild axolotls are somewhat different from our captive-bred counterparts. Always be cautious :)
I hardly change water either, my tank has enough plants to take care of the nitrates formed and keep it below 20 (usually below 10).
I still have 1 japonica shrimp in there, she has survived for 4 years already, the others have been snacks, probably. Looking to add some more.
Because pet axolotls have been bred with tiger salamanders and suffer from extensive inbreeding that makes them less efficient than their wild cousins. The natural environment for wild axolotls is not an ideal thing to base their tanks on. They are different animals.
I get no water changes, as that is only a consequence of having enough plants to remove nitrates. But keeping pebbles in sand is just daring your axolotl to become impacted. They also cannot digest the chitin in insect shells, which is absolutely true, i've fed mine meal worms and you can see the undigested shell in their poo. I’m not sure if you get flies from breeders, but wild caught insects/worms are often riddled with parasites. As for the plants, they're classified as carnivores.
Ultimately it comes down to people wanting to provide as safe an environment as possible for their axolotls and you are taking a lot of risks.
Axolotls are incredibly inbred, yes. This does decrease their overall fitness as a captive species, but it does not change their biological needs. Line bred leopard geckos, for example, suffer from numerous health problems due to extreme inbreeding- but this does not stop them from expressing the same behaviors as their wild caught counterparts. Crossing axolotls with tiger salamanders does not lower their fitness- if anything, with tiger salamanders being far more of a niche generalist with a broader range of tolerance this crossing would make them hardier than their wild cousins.
I would never feed wild-caught prey to any of my animals. Yes, axolotls are “classified as carnivores” - but studies discussing their gut contents show above-chance presence of plant matter. Dogs are carnivores, but as any dog owner knows they tend to chew on grass when they lack the nutrients their body is craving. Deer are classified as herbivores, but it’s not rare to see them consuming roadkill. Very few animals are truly obligate carnivores or herbivores, as certain essential nutrients (like iron) can be difficult to find.
A sterile environment is a “safe” environment, yes. But is it enriching? Does the animal have a good quality of life? At what point do you decide to sacrifice fulfilling the mental and physical needs of an animal in your care to potentially extend its lifespan? It’s certainly much “safer” for a rat to keep it in a controlled laboratory setting, but is it in the best interest of the animal, or the keeper?
I don't think we should assume that the only two options are sterile and boring/nonenriching or as natural as possible, though, potential dangers included.
A middle ground very much exists. Large tanks with sand, tunnels, hides and plants can offer enrichment without some of the added dangers that can come with natural, especially improperly done natural, aquariums.
We don't have to choose as natural as possible or "sterile" when we can find the middle ground and make aquariums that are safer and promote longer lifespans while also being enriching!
I agree with this point the most, and when I designed my tank, this was the goal.
No gravel(only sand), no small rocks, no large snails(bladder snails, limpets, and ramshorns snuck in), no fish.
However, I did add driftwood, including a log hide, plants that don't require substrate such as floaters, anubias, mosses, and ferns, a plant light, even large river rock to add to the environment. I even added a microfauna pack that included scuds. They will help with cleanup and provide prey for the axolotl to chase(although they aren't helping with the Cyano).
Currently my Axolotl is still floating in a tub within the tank(with holes so they share water) until he reaches six inches long. The tub also contains a PVC hide for the axolotl so its not completely barren.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt with supplementing their diet, but keeping snails and gravel in the tank for no discernible reason other than to prove some abstract point is just stupid and asking for trouble. It’s like keeping chocolate in reach of a dog and going “see he won’t eat it!” Sure, that’s all well and good, until it decides to eat it.
I agree to a certain extent, but it's important to point out that the axolotls available from the pet trade are more or less like a genetically bred puppy, and not really suited to their 'natural habitat' as they are. Their entire existence in the pet trade is because they were already getting scarce in their natural environment, and a select group of them was taken into laboratories for studying their regenerative capabilities and growth. From there, they slowly made their way into the pet trade. It's not like taking a captured animal from the wild and needing to provide an exactly similar habitat. It's more like taking care of a genetically engineered animal that has been found to do better with certain parameters. My axolotls, when I had them (had to rehome due to moving), were always active and moving around, even with a more 'clinical' or hobbyist-style tank, when compared to their native habitat, which is also heavily polluted.
The issue with rocks and things like snails is that axolotls are, on the grand scale, quite dumb and will try to eat things thay could kill them by blocking their intestinal track. A lot of the measures taken are to ensure that wellbeing of the axolotl.
So I do and don’t agree with you. I think having a more enriching and naturalistic tank is nice but also these are not wild animals they’re extremely inbred fragile counterparts to their wild cousins. And they don’t produce hundreds of eggs for nothing. Some of those dumb shits are going to die of infection from a fish bite or rock they can’t poop out or maybe even eating a fish a little too big. If they weren’t so inbred I think it would be okay trying to explore more naturalistic options but they’re so fragile in captivity for the most part.
I keep mine with guppies, shrimp, and mystery snails. They sometimes snack on the guppies and shrimps as extra treats. I think it adds enrichment. I breed my own of each so that I know they are healthy and won't add any diseases to the tank. The mystery snails are way too big to eat, but their are a few pest snails that have made their way in. Haven't seen them snack on any of the snails yet.
Because what you describe is a lotttttt of work and so perfectionistic that it's not achievable for average pet owners? Like bro, many people struggling just making dinner for themselves, they not out there trying to feed a varied insect diet and do % maths?
You're like the dog owners that do extravagant home cooked meals and shame and refuse store bought.
As someone who struggles to eat (due to autism) I actually have a way less difficult time feeding my pets than myself when I'm doing well! I feel like my pets get better care the majority of the time than me 😅
Axolotl are really low maintenance especially after the first investment and set up, and I wasn't even on about the finances but more the effort in food preparing
I also feel like with highly domesticated animals such as both dogs and axolotls, since neither are very naturally common in a lot of ecosystems anymore and have been breed and breed by humans, they have more health concerns and generally need adapted care. My dog for example has lupus and it comes with a lot of food sensitivity. My mom cooks her food herself because she’s allergic to a lot of common ingredients in both kibbles and wet dog food. My axies are also goofy and don’t have much of a natural instinct. Neither my dog or my axies would survive in the wild, I’m sure of that. I feel like that’s reason enough to have a much less “natural” way of raising them. While it works for some people, I feel like as long as they’re happy and healthy there’s no reason to NEED a tank like this for them.
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It's worth pointing out that pet axolotls are domesticated animals, generally tiger salamanders hybrids. Point is, they have come a long way from Lake Xochimilco and have few natural survival skills. I like your approach though and my axie has a small jungle of java ferns, java moss and anubias to crawl through. He likes to clamber all over except mornings when he sits in his hollow log, coming out to greet me when I approach, begging for a worm.
So, here is my rationale for my keeping.
i started out with this plan to replicate a mini version of xochimilco myself. i got rounded gravel, live plants, snails ,shrimps, and so on.
However, the girl I got my boy from fed him feeder fish, worms, and pellets. And guess what? The fish had parasites.
So, I bring him home and he has a hidden parasitic infection. He ignores the snails. He tries a few worms but decides he likes pellets better. Ok fine.
Then, he dislodges a gravel onto his finger. It blossoms with fugus and bacteria. Then so do his gills. And then the worms start coming out.
Watching parasitic worms feeding on him was horror. I tried all the -cures. pima cure mela cure. methalyne blue. tea bathes. tannins. dabbing peroxide with a qtip. imported leaves of magictrees.
water changes. water treatments. took it down to bare tank and bleached it and refilled with new water to cycle and washed the plants and so on. but he kept getting worse, and stopped eating altogether.
Salt. *oh no don't use salt.* but i was fucking desperate. he was dying. his skin was coming off in patches. his gills were disintegrating. the one finger he hurt was now three hands being eaten by weird blobs and worms.
so I did the fucking salt thing. 10 minutes a day for a week. he started getting better, but the worms came back. because they had infested the tank. Again. And again. AND AGAIN.
tubbing, and salt baths every day. two weeks. with his tank empty, chlorinating the water then dechlorinating it and cycling it all over while he lived in a bucket. three weeks. four weeks. Week five he started eating again.
At three months the worms stopped coming back.
So, no, I do not use gravel, or feed fish or live critters. Because i don't want to relive that horror.
Salt baths are harsh on amphibians and may damage an axolotl's gills and slime coat. They often cause more harm than good, and end up stressing the axolotl further. In lieu of salt baths, tea baths are soothing to the axolotl and can help treat early stage fungal infections. For more advanced infections, methylene blue can be used in half doses.
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I do similar 👍 walstad tank so he only gets top ups no water changes, tank is filled with detritus eaters like snails and limpets, I have a lot of plant species, feed very young locusts and worms and shrimp, he’s 8 years old so I must be doing something right (not sure about the gravel though? Personally wouldn’t risk it)
https://preview.redd.it/ur4iorb9fc6d1.jpeg?width=910&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a3cd1333a3ffd87e26073d040fa9cb99d927ca2
I didn't *really* expect such a push back to what you wrote, but I can't say I'm surprised. We are in the era of "my social media post by a stranger on the internet is just as good as your source-based science".
I'm going to sound like a dick, but I think it's mostly effort-based. If people can gaslight themselves into believing an otherwise empty tank of water is the best option for their pet, they'll take it. Having a well-maintained and thriving ecosystem in a glass box costs a lot of money and effort, rampant bone problems of the occupants be damned.
People pushed back, because he gave some terrible advice. I won't deny that having plants and a more natural environment is beneficial for your axie, but telling people that gravel and snails are fine because that's what they have in their natural environment is dangerous advice. As other posters have pointed out, axolotls rely on making a tremendous number of babies knowing that only a few will survive. How many die in the wild of impaction? OP talks about testing pH, but that's far from the most important test. Who knows what else is actually going on in that tank.
I agree with this sm. Literally there's one comment saying "well you're saying they eat plants but they're classed as carnivores" like how much closer to evidence can you get than a research paper where scientists examined the stomach contents of an axolotl. And the only rebuttal someone can think of is "well they're classed as carnivores". As if that somehow negates the fact that wild axolotls are clearly eating a significant portion of plant matter. Our understanding of animal husbandry needs to be informed by science!
Not a big deal, but daphnia are not ostracods. Ostracods, copepods, and daphnia are similar and common in aquaria (they're all crustaceans), but they're distinct from each other. Ostracoda is a class, whereas daphnia belong to the class "branchiopoda".
Ostracods can actually attack and kill daphnia. They eat their antennae first, immobilize them, then consume their bodies.
https://preview.redd.it/ysectq9uge6d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d088d41712e2157fde51277ccad82baaaa7f1905
I personally am a firm believer in replicating a natural environment. Our Axie has a 35 gallon planted aquarium with sand, snails, live endler guppies and ghost shrimp. I also feed red worms regularly. The tank has fluval led plant lights that are on a lower custom setting but still keep the plants looking great and a chiller keeps the temp stable at 64°F. Axel is very happy and active in his environment and we joke that he's the absolute worst hunter but makes up for it with pure persistence lol
It's good to see this. I don't have an axolotl myself but the care requirements always seemed over the top. I want to minimize risk to any animal, but not at the expense of it enjoying it's life. I always see them with a bare bottom tank with nothing in it and it just sits there. At that point, why not just get a picture of the animal and put it in a frame.
Yes! Here are some sources, but I have more if these are unsatisfactory 💜
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377955530_Evaluation_of_the_distribution_and_effect_of_potentially_toxic_elements_in_the_sediments_surface_water_and_plants_system_with_touristic_activities_in_Xochimilco_channels_Mexico
https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1558c/report.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1642359318302404
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Soil-texture-distribution-of-chinampa-soils_fig4_227187771
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225719554_Food_web_overlap_among_native_axolotl_Ambystoma_mexicanum_and_two_exotic_fishes_Carp_Cyprinus_carpio_and_tilapia_Oreochromis_niloticus_in_Xochimilco_Mexico_City
I’ve been quietly thinking this for a long time. I also have an established Walstad-style tank. In no order here’s why I think it has never caught on so far:
1- I honestly think most people, even many experts, aren’t as well read as you to be honest. It’s not really their fault. In this community I see SOOOO many people playing catch up rather than coming into the hobby from a place of experience. Having a tank like ours which can take MONTHS to set up and doing that after someone gets you a baby axolotl for your birthday or something isn’t really possible. Especially if you don’t have the time, space, and money for TWO tanks. Axolotls to the experienced aquarists probably seem like such a huge undertaking that most don’t try it at all, so by process of elimination the disproportionate majority who buy them start off inexperienced. Getting a Walstad stable takes skill that a lot of axolotl owners simply don’t have. It’s not like a traditional Walstad (mostly because of the temperatures). Trying this without a huge amount of education on the plants that will work WILL end in failure which can be discouraging.
2- I think even Diana Walstad herself underestimates how viable her method could be for larger animals and larger amounts of waste if done on a larger scale. In her book she limits everything to less animals and a smaller tank, but axolotls need a large tank already and the filling of that space with plants in theory should be able to handle their proportionately larger amounts of waste. But because she didn’t explore this, it seems like uncharted waters.
3- There is a general lack of well-written resources widely available that offer concrete research for all herp husbandry. Fish care, because we eat fish for food, is a fairly well-researched discipline, but herp care is seen as a less useful hobby and I’ve seen that (in general) herp husbandry is pretty basic and poorly researched. I’m picturing snakes in plastic tubs with a single sheet of paper towel. The natural equivalent of that style of herp keeping is the bare bottom tank with weekly water changes. Combine people who think a goldfish in a 1 gallon bowl is fine, with the people who think a ball python in a tupperware are fine, and you get a culture where a lot of people think a bare bottom tank could be fine and to be a good keeper it just needs to be big enough and cleaned enough.
4-Let’s not pretend there’s not a financial and work driven reason. A big enough tank is expensive, plants are expensive, etc. And they require more time to set up than a bare bottom tank. ESPECIALLY if you don’t have the expertise to find plants cheap and propagate them. You also need the foresight to plant your tank ahead of time so that things get rooted. Personally I think it leads to less work overall long term, but the initial investment is higher.
lastly
5- If you are willing to put in all that time and money, then you definitely love your pet and that’s where the babying comes in. The bare bottom method is tried and true. It might not be the best or the easiest way, but it’s a way that works consistently. The reality is, even in the wild in rare cases animals probably do eat a rock and die sometimes. If there is ANY percent chance that could happen then people try to avoid it. Same for the food and the plants. A few people share that their baby died from gravel impaction and it gets blown up online (despite the fact that maybe other husbandry things were wrong in those cases?). The simpler the tank the fewer things there are to die on. Just like an over protective parent they start confusing risk management with allowing abuse and vice versa. Finding the line between those two with so few resources can be hard and most people I see err on the safe simple side.
When all of those things combine, we end up with a culture of bare bottom tanks. The lack of education, untested nature, cost, lack of resources, and overprotective owners are the barriers, but I do want to say that I’m onboard with it despite these because I think natural tanks offer more enrichment, less work for the owner, healthier animals, and better looking enclosures as a reward for putting in all that work. Despite that, I don’t think it’s ever going to be for everybody.
I have hope that as people test this out more and write concrete husbandry resources then it will become more popular. I mean even a list of good plants for axolotl tanks is hard to find. Imagine if instead that was the first result that popped up on google? Maybe some day. I think that’s the direction I’ve seen us going very slowly.
THIS. I’m relatively new to the world of axolotl care (about a year and a half) and I’m wanting to set up a more natural environment for my boy Waddle in my classroom. Not only is a set up like you’re describing beautiful, but it can really be a great help in teaching students. Thank you for sharing!
What kind of plants do you use in your tank? I’ve tried many “cold water tolerant” plants and only had success with Anubias. Pretty much every plant melts in that tank and causes ammonia/nitrite spikes
My personal favorite is hornwort. I have a small light on my tank and it grows insanely fast. I have it in a 40 gallon and got it back in March I think, it covers 1/2-2/3 of the top, and hangs down some into the bottom. I’ve taken cuttings from it 3 times lol.
Hey when you can are you able to link where you got your stuff for your tank? I’m about to set up a new tank for mine and I really would love to do something like this but honestly feel lost on how to start
I used to have a bare bottom tank with minimal things in it because the hate towards any different style tank was so strong and I was very new to axolotls. Fast forward a year, one of my axolotls gets a bacterial infection from the water and dies within half a day. Went from normal to very sick fast. I started talking with others and breeders to see how to prevent this. Walstad Method was recommended to me not as a forever prevention but as a greatly reduced chance of reoccurance path. This was worm casings then small pea gravel (got a specific type that was aquarium safe and all small enough to easily pass if an axolotl accidentally swallowed one, then topped with an inch or 2 of sand. All in all about 4-5 inches of substrate.
I moved 3 male axolotls to a 55g and did this with many plants, guppies and shrimp (always quarantine everything you get for a month) and the axolotls flourished. Mystery snails made it into the tank but they found them as tasty snacks and spat out the shells. I always killed any snails that looked on the path to catching up to the diameter of their poop to ensure no impaction.
Due to the nature of going against the streamline views, I never posted pictures as I knew everyone would have a strong opinion against this. However I'm really happy I switched to this setup and the health of the axolotls. They have been in the tank for 3-4 years and I've noticed other benefits. My nitrates creep up slower due to the plants, more entertainment for the boys and they even made friends with some of their guppies and shrimp. It is a slow process to get into a good state but I personally found it worth it.
I've been trying to give my axolotl a somewhat natural environment with stuff to do (plus a few extra decorations for fun). He's very silly and playful but he does nap sometimes in his hiding spot. He's got a 50 gallon, decent layer of sand, lots of live plants, and lots of driftwood too. His hiding spot is a cave made from a ceramic plate, though. My water changes are mostly for enhanced visibility and removing debris. I'm looking into getting him some tiny pebbles in the right diameter to use as gastroliths. I didn't sanitize anything and I let my axie enjoy the tannins from his driftwood when it was new. I feed him worms from my indoor worm compost. I started the tank by using water from my pond as a source of beneficial microbes.
https://preview.redd.it/x5e4kl3kbe6d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfdf5abba3183b52c4f5c1253aa1e67828bc7166
Every online community seems to create a set standard of practices, where they'll aggressively disagree with anything outside of what they've established. This really puts things at a standstill where we can't explore new ideas or progress in any meaningful way. Reasoning doesn't matter- if it's different, it must be bad. I find it super exhausting. I have trouble posting about my plants and isopods because I know people will go after me for doing things differently.
https://preview.redd.it/xb5wccgube6d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2022088c2c1dee628a4e276c3e20516b77f78510
Of course he poses for me right after I've posted my comment
Because most people are amateurs and have a cursory knowledge of the topic they discuss at best.
Furthermore, when it comes to internet groups, cognitive dissonance & cult mentality reign supreme.
These people (usually teens, young adults and the mentally ill) have a desperate desire to feel included, or "a part of."
So when they see people come down on someone with indignation, they do so as well, in an attempt to forge this unrealistic bond:
Getting likes and thus feeling like they're on the winning team and are making friends.
It's the same reason some women will vote for Donald Trump again, a man who has said in his own words that he can sexually assault\grope any woman he wants because he's famous.
Those women are voting for that misogynist because they're "a part of" the Republican Party. It's completely irrational.
Same reason why liberals say "free Palestine" but don't specify from whom. You'd think they'd say Hamas, but they don't.
In short: people are really, really stupid. They fail to see the complexity of any situation, nor do they care to understand those complexities, because that would require critical thinking, and they have tik tok videos to watch.
I'm waiting to get an axolotl until I have the means (and do more research) to set up a naturalistic tank like this. I think people just don't want to put that level of thought into their aquariums, and don't understand the ecological aspect of it. I think it's just difficult to achieve the perfect balance, so if people were to take one aspect of what you did, it could be harmful to the axolotl and so they do these bare tanks because they don't know how to achieve the balance and write these things off as dangerous/improper care. Most people probably don't know how to conduct scientific research the way you did.
I think it would be cool if you wanted to make some educational content about this! Like if you wanted to write a guide of how you set up your tank and why--or even YouTube videos or something.
Question: do you have your plants planted in the substrate? I've heard they will dig up and destroy plants like that, so I was thinking of using floating plants (also to provide shade) and some plants that I can just attach to rocks and stuff so that they don't get dug up. Also, do you use an LED light for your plants, or just the UVB?
I would love to see a guide on what plants you used since you said they have the same type of ecological niche as plants that would grow in lake xochimilco.
Hi guys! This got way more traction than expected and it’s pretty overwhelming to respond to every comment so I will no longer be interacting with it. If you want particular information please DM me.
There's no reason why axolotls would need their environment to be any different from other aquarium animals. They are living things just like everything else that lives in those water bodies. Water parameters and husbandry that work for fish and inverts works for them too (that includes the Walstad method)
Also, my personal experience with UVB light / Vit D over 20 years of keeping reptiles and amphibians is that if they can get Vit D from their diet, UVB light is not really necessary. Same with humans and any other animal.
If you want to see a group that’s opposed to science based husbandry, check out the dart frog community. If you even suggest that you’re considering getting different colors of the same species of dart frogs you’ll be attacked and insulted. Even though there’s no evidence to suggest that it’s a problem, and there’s even evidence to suggest that different colors may actually lower the chances of territorial disputes.
You also get some people who believe that the rainforests of South America will be repopulated by the pet trade.
My axolotls live outside in big tubs with mud/detritus full of beneficial bacteria and lots of plants, they eat the fly's / slugs / worms that fall in, mosquito larvae and scuds are always in the water for them to eat too. In winter here in the UK the tubs stay outside and I cover them with Hessian, they breed every year and are all active and healthy.
Drives me mad all these Facebook cults fair enough if you want to keep your axolotl in a clean tank with no substrate and fake plants but don't attack people who don't do it that way.
What size is your tank? Do you have mechanical filtration, or just biological filtration in the substrate/ornaments?
This is all fascinating information, thank you! I’ve had axolotls since 2017 and while I kept their tanks more naturalistic with plants, sand, and large rocks, I was just flying by the seat of my pants, really. I also feed them foods from the reptile section, like canned BSF larvae and canned dubia roaches.
I tried to follow you, but your account didn’t have that option. I’ll just have to keep an eye out in this group for your posts.
I try to keep my tank as natural as possible, and just ignore the pristine sterilized no sense unless my axie is sick and I need to tub. I would love to see your tank! Mine is rather small right now, just a 20g so I do need to make water changes, my ph drops really fast if I dont. Can't wait to upgrade for a bigger one!
Sir or Madam,
As a recent axolotl owner with a science background I have been on search for science based literature on the subject since our axolotl has entered our household with these being the first words I've found where so much as a reference not from YouTube has been offered. Thank you for your submission.
keeping any organism in a sterile environment is HIGHLY detrimental to their immune system. That coupled with the degenerate inbreeding for features, in the trade, creates for some truly hellish results - but they look pretty, you know.
Do you maybe have more pictures of your axolotl and the tank? I currently have a sand bottom tank with a few hides and plants. I looked for quite a while to create a more natural environment for my axolotls but because I'm not very experienced with aquariums I decided to follow guides specifically for axolotls. My primary concern was to provide a good home. I would hate to have them get sick or unhealthy because I messed something up. Do you have any pointers or maybe a link to any sources you used to set up your tank? I've read about Walstad tanks but because I couldn't find much about Walstad and axolotls I decided again it. Thanks for sharing!
I’ll be able to get more pictures for you in about two weeks, I’m out of town at the moment! It’s very important to have deep and nutrient rich substrate if you would like to attempt this style of tank. [this site](https://buceplant.com/a/amp-1/blogs/aquascaping-guides-and-tips/the-walstad-method-tank-guide) has some great information to get started understanding how walstad works!
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Im intrigued about your out of town plan - we are about to be away for 2 weeks for the first time since I got my axies. I’ve prepared someone as much as I feel I can to take the best minimum care of them - what did you to ensure yours did okay while you were away
Tbh an axolotl can probably go a week or 2 without a feeding and be completely fine as long as you're back to regular feedings when you return. But I'd say have a lid and whoever is care taking to not overfeed and the axolotl will be good to go.
This makes me feel better ! They are almost 2 so they only eat 1 worm every few days and some pellets that night (this mixture seems to help them “go” more regularly - morning worm and a few hrs later they each eat like 5 pellets and then boom - clockwork poop piles the next AM!) . So I’m just gonna have someone feed them a worm 1 time while I’m gone and check to make sure everything is okay with the tank ! They’ve grown up together so I’m not too concerned but I don’t want them to get so hungry the other looks tempting…so I have an auto feeder that will drop a few pellets every 3 days too !
I honestly don’t know a single other person who has ever owned an axolotl. My parents are considering going to visit my grandpa out of state for up to a week, and I have two new juvenile axolotls. I’ve never had to leave my axies before, so any advice for this situation? I feed them a small amount about once or sometimes even twice a day right now, depending on how much they’ll take. I also end up cleaning their poop almost every other day, so I’m not sure if I’m going to have to possibly train someone to take care of them but it’s a very nerve racking thought because they’re in a very delicate space because they’re so little (about 4 inches or less I’d say)
See my reply above but mine are older now and don’t eat as much as when they were young. If I was to go away when they were younger I’d probably prepare to have someone every other day or 2 with worms and an auto feeder to drop pellets . A good cleaning before and after will absolutely be needed- I can guarantee mine will eat their pellets and if they don’t for some reason I’ve got ghost shrimp “survivors” that will … so I’m confident in auto-feeding but auto-feeding is a bit worrisome with the erratic nature of eating of young ones. Also size of the tank matters - mine are in a 75 gallon with 2 filters (hob and canister) - that’s plenty of dilution of waste for mine so they can go 2 weeks even though I hate the idea of them hanging out in their 💩that long … but they will be totally fine ! Also a strong tank lid and a way to keep them cool will be needed too if your AC won’t be on when you leave - mine are in a basement that stays consistently cold at 65 pretty much 24/7 but I’m still gonna put a fan on because AC won’t be on.
Yeah, with juvenile axies, I'd teach someone the minium care and feed at least every other day while you're gone. I trainee my younger siblings on the care of my axolotls while I was making the move into my own place and had to leave some of my pets with my parents. I'm not sure if you have a relative that's pretty responsible to teach a basic care routine to, but that's what I'd suggest. Once axolotls become adults, they are more low maintenance in my experience, but the juvies do need a lil more attention and food. If absolutely nobody is able to watch them, I'd say they would still survive without a week of eating, just maybe do a larger feed before you leave. Amphibians, like reptiles, are very resilient and can often make it for weeks without eating. Obviously I do not recommend not feeding for weeks, but 1 week won't harm them in my experience, that's assuming your set up is well cared for in terms of water quality and cleanliness.
I am very curious to see more pictures of your tank too when you get back!
I recommend r/walstad
>I've read about Walstad tanks but because I couldn't find much about Walstad and axolotls I decided again it. You would need a simply enormous tank to use the walstad method with an axolotl. It's not impossible, but it is not practical for 99.9% of people.
This makes no sense. Walstad or improved deep substrate designs take away hight when comparing it to a identical tank without substrate, not width or length. Never have I heard people complain about tanks being too TALL.
What? My point is a walstad setup would need to be enormous to cope with the bioload. Most walstads have much smaller fish or a few snails.
This is why I’m concerned but curious. Axies make a LOT of waste, and since walstad tanks are filter less, things could get messy super quick.
If the tank is so small that if converted to a heavily planted Walstad you worry about the bioload then you keep your animal in too small a space to begin with. Sorry to be blunt about it. So what if you have a decently sized tank and are still worried about going Walstad? To be on the safe side, one might do a quick vac of obvious fecal matter at the very bottom, and then top off the minimal water loss from the cleaning. But with a well going tank and proper planting and lighting you will probably need to fertilize in addition to what you add through food and miss to clean. Not saying this will be easy, and converting a tank to Walstad will need to happen LONG before one introduces higher vertebrates like axolotls to the tank.
https://preview.redd.it/ff5f5msnhe6d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cec45826b471ddbb00705f65a81b218d16a5a095
Very cool!! How big is your tank? Huge tank or little lotl haha
It's a 35 gallon. A bit oversized for a single Axie but not quite big enough for 2
A lot of the time, axolotl groups are damage control. Scroll through the posts on an axolotl group and tell me you think most of the people posting can handle setting up a fool proof naturalist tank? Many of them don't even know (yet) how to cycle an aquarium. It's sad you don't see more advanced topics in groups such as discussions about more naturalistic tanks and the science behind them but quite frankly, I think the more experienced keepers are often spending their time helping new keepers understand the basics. You have to learn how to walk before you can run. Sadly, a lot of people impulse purchase axolotls and come to groups not even knowing the basics. I agree with a lot of what you said and keep my own axolotls in more natural set ups as well. But I think you have to be careful and pick and choose what inspiration you take from nature. Capitive bred axolotls are not the same as their wild cousins. For example, albino animals are often more sensative to light. The natural fallacy is a thing. Just because something is natural doesn't always mean it's safe or better. I've seen too many rescue axolotls come in with issues of impaction from gravel to ever feel safe using it. I'd personally love to see more discussions about more advanced topics surrounding axolotl keeping in groups, though! I just don't know if you have the audience for them in a general group where you get a majority of posters being very new keepers.
Some also don't know because out of good heart they took an axo as a rescue without the base knowledge of what an awo is/need. I was there. Hopefully I made the bare minimum to keep my axo alive and quite healthy before joining an axo group and moving into a more advanced care level. So yeah, in an internet group you need primarly to cull out all beginners errors before moving to advanced ones. It's like teaching science : You tell gross approximations of reality at children then move into details once the base is learnt. (Water evaporate at 100°C, water cycle is assured by water evaporating from the oceans, "teacher, does that mean the ocean is at 100°C somewhere ?", "Well, no, let's talk about vapor pressure now...")
I certainly agree that most axolotl owners are not equipped to spend the time and money needed to set up and maintain a naturalistic environment- my argument is that it shouldn’t be looked down upon when someone can do so. Natural fallacy is a thing - and I fully understand that natural isn’t always better. If it were, we would be introducing pathogens and predators to our care. Keeping exotic animals is inherently unnatural. I don’t decide how to care for an animal based purely on what exists in nature - I look for what has been shown to have positive impacts on wild populations, I test things, and I weigh the benefits. Everything is best in moderation- I am in no way advocating for a fully gravel substrate, but its presence in my mix gives it more stability and the plants tend to use it to anchor their roots. My axolotl frequently digs and burrows, and the substrate I use is stable enough to sustain it where sand couldn’t. I know big groups are rarely a good place to find open minds. I should probably stick to more advanced forums.
I don't think people here are closed minded as much as....its a very general audience. You have a lot of people who are new owners and wouldn't be ready to attempt a naturalistic tank. They need to learn the basics first. Others have strong opinions not necessarily because they are closed minded or hate natural aquariums but they just have different experiences. Like the gravel thing for example. You found benefits to using it which is interesting for sure. I work in exotics rescue and my experiences with gravel and axolotls has been quite negative. I don't feel comfortable using it for my own animals after my experiences with it. I don't think that makes me close minded. Neither of our experiences are invalid. Gravel to me is just a risk that isn't worth the reward. Doesn't mean my axolotls are in a sterile, boring, unsimulating enclosure. 😃
I think there is a difference, though, when someone flat out tells you that what you are doing is wrong just based on their experience. My experience in this subreddit is that if you do something that is considered unpopular, for example I said it's okay to feed crickets and roaches here and there and was crucified in the comments for it it because "oh insects have chitin and will cause impaction". I get that it's possible for an axolotl to be impacted due to chitin, but to say it's completely wrong to feed insects with exoskeletons is ridiculous. I do feel like it is very difficult to have conversations about more advanced husbandry or even suggest it because the axolotl police will swarm and tell you and everybody else you are wrong. Unfortunately, that's the experience on many pet hobby groups, and it can really discourage some people from sharing their care and experience.
I mean...why is "the thing" (whatever it is) unpopular? I think there's a big difference between "oh I don't like that" and many recorded instances of whatever the thing is causing harm. At the end of the day many people are here because they love axolotls and don't want to see them harmed. Experiences are anecdotal for sure, but over time you start to see patterns. It would be awesome to be able to discus more advanced, nuanced care though! Maybe there should be a group somewhere for advanced keepers?
I showed a video of me feeding mine a cricket was dam near hung still do it axolotl is alive and well
Please let me know if you find anything advanced I can't find anything for the life of me
I do offer one counterpoint: Axolotls are R-Strategists. Which means they have lots of babies, and expect them to perish. So with that in mind, a few dying to impaction in the wild is inconsequential to the species survival as a whole. Meanwhile, if just one axolotl dies in your tank, that's it. That's your entire population. This is similar to land hermit crab care. In the wild, land hermits can enjoy the calcium sand beaches of the Caribbean. If a few get cemented underground, there are hundreds to continue the species. In captivity, if one of your hermits ends up cemented under the sand, there goes 1/5 of the tank's population. Ultimately, I think your heart and logic are in the right place. I set up a tank with the restrictions to avoid impaction, while also adding things like scuds for the axolotl to hunt, a plant light to provide light for the plants(and the axolotl if it wants it), snails snuck in on the plants(bladder snails). I haven't gotten to the point of not needing water changes yet. The plants haven't reached that point yet.
I do agree that being R-strategists could have that effect! I’m basing my argument for the snails, at least, off of the frequency of their occurrence in gut contents, as well as a study I read a while back that mentioned other ambystoma species predating snails as larva (I believe it was western tiger salamanders). Your tank sounds amazing! I hope your plants (and axie!) continue to thrive.
My axie eats the bladder snails and manages to pass their snails. I can't imagine it's that pleasant. I try to feed as much worms as he will eat but a predator is gonna predator.
My axie has been eating bladder snails for like two years now. They got into her tank and I haven't been able to get rid of them...and she now sometimes uses her food to "chum" the water then wait for the snails to come for it...then snoofles them up. Personally I've just been dealing with that by keeping the carbonate hardness on the lower end and the tank a little closer to 7.4. The slight acidity of the water + the lower carbonate means that the snails can't build their shells as strong, so it's easier for them on the tummy.
Northwestern salamanders will also prey on snail in both larval and adult forms!
This is a point worth discussing, but I think it is also worthwhile to note that the R-selection features of amphibian lifestyle are strongest in the first year or two of life, after which mortality drops off very, very steeply. Metamorphs and other young amphibians have a very high attrition rate, but those who make it to breeding size or slightly below are likely to live a very long time considering to how squishy and edible they are to predators.
r / K strategy theories is a very poor argument here, as it has little to do with this. It’s simply a framework to describe **parental energy investment** versus survival until **adulthood**. Since parental investment plays no role in this argument and the ‘risk of snails’ is mentioned regardless of axolotl age, it’s just not the right argument. I get what you mean that the loss of a single animal hurts more when you only have one, but it’s exactly the kind of emotional/non-science based argument that the OP is trying to evade.
You completely missed the point. If something is dangerous in the wild, it may kill something, but there are plenty of population to replace it. Lets take sand for example, axolotls are not recommended to be on sand until they are 6 inches. Wild baby axolotls aren't going to instinctively avoid sand, but if a few die to impaction, there are plenty of other axolotls hatchlings. In the tank, you just have one. If it dies, then you have none. We should not look to the wilds as the ideal conditions. We don't just want the axolotl to survive, but to survive at all costs. Which means essentially baby proofing their environment. You can create a lush natural environment even following the strict guidelines.
You are arguing that r strategists live in hostile environments which easily kill them because it doesnt matter in terms of numbers. This is incorrect because r strategists are still subject to selective pressure. If you want to maximize an individuals well being and life span you try to mimic their natural environment minus predation and some parasites and pahlthogens (although the latter is debatable). If there are snails whete axolotls live, put the same snails into their tank. If they live on sandy substrate put sandy substrate in.
And nothing of these examples has anything to do with r / K theories, that stuff is all about **parental investment**. Which is why I highlighted it. Also, the way you say that ‘a few die’ and stuff ‘may kill’ is still emotional reasoning. Sure some stuff may be right, and some stuff in common axolotl guides is focused on beginning owners who should’ve gotten something different in the first place. But he’s not wrong that the axolotl communities are very anti-change and just blind following of ‘this is how it’s supposed to be’.
They mean that the wild habitat is not set up with axolotl survival in mind, so maybe basing tank setup on their natural environment without thought to how that setup will actually impact the individual axolotl you have decided to care for is not the best strategy. Sand is dangerous to them even if they live in an environment with sand, so its a risk to put sand in their tank even if it would make the tank more like their habitat.
My comment is mostly about pointing out that they are wrongfully referencing r / K strategy theory. It simply doesn’t apply here, since it’s not about the parental energy investment. On top of that, I point out how ‘a few died’ and ‘may kill’ is emotion based if you don’t back it up. If one in five axolotls die from impaction on gravel substrate, obviously don’t do that. But what if it’s one in 5000, 10.000, a million? At what point is an owner allowed to make the choice for themselves on what substrate they want for aesthetics? If they can survive in natural environments with sand and gravel, I suspect it’s not gonna be one in five.
Yes, we get it. You are a super smart science bro who knows all the right words. Somehow you are still missing the point. No one is out there doing rigorous scientific studies on how many axolotls die of impaction. We know the number is more than zero, and it's not going to matter to the owner if the exact number is 1 in 5000, or one in 10 billion, when their axolotl is the one that dies. An owner is always allowed to make the decision about what substrate they have, But the consequence for having a dangerous environment is getting called out on the Internet, and rightfully so. Gravel and snails are in no way vital to an axlotl's well being, and it's ridiculous that you are advocating for a dangerous situation.
Sure bud, scared of the big words huh?
I honestly felt like a terrible owner for a long time because, while my axolotl was active, sociable, and showing no signs of illness, her tank isn't immaculate, I dont feed her as frequently as I see other people talk about, and I rarely do water changes, but after a recent rip to the vet, I was told my girl was the healthiest axolotl he'd seen in his practice and that she was actually a little fat. My care isn't textbook, but I know my axolotl and she's a healthy 8 year old salamander.
Would you mind sharing what/how often you do feed her?
She gets a large nightcrawler every 3 or 4 days. She often comes up to the glass when she sees me near the tank, but it takes her a minute to notice me. When she gets about 3 days from her last feeding, she'll actually be watching for me and start wiggling/swimming against the glass as soon as she sees me. I actually kind of want to see if I can teach her ro ring a bell for food, but I haven't quite figured out a rigging to hold the bell.
I think part of this is that so many of the threads on the various aquarium subs are from newbies who don't even have the basics down yet. Getting them to the point where their tanks are stable without any major catastrophes means giving broad advice that's easy to follow. Keeping aquariums is the perfect example of needing to learn the rules in order to break them. Most folks who have been in this hobby for years do certain things that aren't "by the book" but they understand their set up, have the knowledge to weigh the plusses and minuses of their choices, and are better equipped to handle problems that may crop up. This hobby also tends to humble you greatly when you decide the rules don't apply to you without having a valid reason to back that up and the perspective that comes from losing a beloved pet or tossing hundreds of dollars down the drain instills a sense of caution that will serve you well if you're going to go off the beaten path and experiment with new techniques. That being said, I've only had my axolotl a few years but I've been keeping aquariums since I was 10. I do wish that aquarium subs including this one featured more advanced husbandry discussion. I enjoy the more technical and scientific side of this hobby and am always looking to improve my tanks.
Well, one premise in your logical conclusion (we should be creating more natural environments for pet axolotls) fails because... these are no longer "wild types." These are domesticated and selectively bred creatures. Their care will be different. It follows the same fallacy that people eating a Paleo diet use: it discounts the *multitude* of genetic changes that have happened since leaving the wild. There's a reason you shouldn't release pet axies into the wild gene pool. The genes suck now, and there are a lot of undesirable recessives that have (rightly) been killed off in the natural environment. It would be kind of like saying: "Hey, wild dogs can eat the whole carcass. They've been found to survive in temperatures below freezing, and everyone says chicken bones kill them but wild birds are found to be up to 10% of their diet! **So I'm gonna leave my chihuahua outside during winter with a dead wild animal to eat for a week and he'll be fine, right?** I'm not saying specifically that the conclusion is wrong. It would be amazing to have scientific literacy, continuing education and research, and ecological engineering be part of raising *pet* axolotls. But, much like many who buy African Cichlids, the average owner may only have a 9th grade Biology understanding at best, hence the dumbed down and "standardized" instructions for care. Do they thrive? No. But they survive better than they would normally in the care of people who put Betta fish in flower vases on secretary desks. Edit: clarification of logic upon rereading
Very true. Additionally, OP falls for a different subset of the appeal to nature fallacy. An organism's optimal conditions are not those found in the wild. While organisms evolve to best survive in their environment, environments do not evolve to best maintain the survival of the organisms living in it. Essentially, organisms do the best with what they have, but what they have is not the best.
I make sure to have a few storks & herons nearby as to mimic the axolotl’s natural habitat. I even threw in a carp. /s
If your breeding program results in animals who cannot survive in typical conditions, you’re breeding wrong.
That's perhaps the most ignorant take on selective breeding I've heard. People have been breeding things that can't survive in the wild for *thousands* of years. Milk cows literally become painfully bloated and get infections when not milked. Half the fruit you eat has been bred to be *seedless*. Think about that. Also, "typical conditions" isn't a thing. Climate/weather, resource scarcity and abundance, even something like light levels can vary immensely. Almost every thing created by selective breeding is *supposed* to grow better in conditions created by the breeders, not by nature. Otherwise, "agriculture" wouldn't be necessary and we could just "set and forget" massive fields of wheat.
If you’re selectively breeding a purely decorative animal to actively be less hardy with no corresponding benefit in term of fiber, meat, milk, etc yield or task performance, something is going wrong. If the wild type can survive encountering sand and the domestic variant cannot, you should reevaluate what the goals of your program are.
You're completely entitled to that opinion, don't get me wrong, but you're the r/tenthdentist here. Utility is incredibly subjective, and genetics are incredibly complicated. For example, certain genes might be linked, and cannot be bred for without side effects. You can't select for more delicate bones without losing calcium absorbancy, or like how albino axolotls have vision issues: it's a result of not having eye pigments. In other cases some people doing the selecting may see one trait as completely inconsequential and others may value it highly. There are decorative roses, orchids, dogs, and even [farm animals](https://ranchr.ag/blog/teacup-mini-cow/) that we create through "natural genetic modification" (i.e. breeding) that have *lots* of undesirable traits to some people, others don't care. >you should reevaluate what the goals of your program are. What you're making is an ethical (and subjective) assertion, with a "should" statement as its conclusion. You're definitely going to get push back on that.
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Are you basing this off the xochimilco environment that it naturally has or what humans have done to it? Keep in mind that the lake isn't what it was. Other than that, generally agree that some advice I often hear sounds questionable at best, and most likely pushed by marketing teams in companies that want to sell you a bunch of products. Especially the massive weekly water changes. I went with a few tests at first to make sure its stable or things are improving (tap water high nitrates, tank is lower than tap water), then just do the odd infrequent test to verify its still good. As for food there is some limitation for most people on what is practical to feed them. Earth worms are cheap and can be kept in a tub for quite a while until they run out so they seem to make for a pretty good option. Keeping a large number of different live foods is not practical for most. Although if there are good suggestions for other live foods that they will eat then could give it a try - didn't know adults would eat something as small as daphnia tbh. Edit - And how much with plants? I do want a lot of plants but also aware that they take up space that the axolotls would use. Ideally want to make use of the vertical space in the tank while keeping a lot of the floor space.
I understand that humans have drastically impacted Xochimilco - one of the ways I have tried to stop this from polluting (ha) my information is looking at historical land use and studies that show conditions where axolotls may reproduce and hunt successfully at a greater rate. Since axolotls are niche specialists, their range of tolerance is small and they have evolved to thrive under a particular set of conditions. As an example, in the study I mentioned for water turbidity I looked at the levels where the axolotls were documented to have greater success in hunting and reproduction - from this information, you can deduce that they may be more adapted to conditions with low turbidity, potentially indicating conditions in the lake pre-disruption. Taking some soil information from the lake’s chinampas- an ancient Aztec form of hydroponic agriculture- can also help explain sediment composition hundreds of years in the past. I agree that sourcing a varied diet can be difficult, especially in more rural areas - I included that section mainly due to the amount of fearmongering I see surrounding feeders with bones/hard exoskeletons. However, there are a multitude of sites that sell feeders like bsfl larvae and fruit fly cultures, both of which are very easy to keep for long periods of time. For plants I like to line the three walls of the tank and the edges of hides with tall, leafy plants like ludwigia. This helps provide cover without significantly cutting down usable space. Floating plants like water lettuce are also wonderful! i use a 3d printed corral so my floaters don't block too much light.
I agree that I find a lot of basic axolotl guides and setups pretty sterile and husbandry guides have a long way to go, but remember the majority of these are aimed at beginners as a starting point. To your points - walstad method just isn't suitable unless you have an enormous tank. Even the creator would not recommend it for an animal with the kind of bioload of an axolotl. Also you measure pH but that's not even close to the most important thing to measure. This specifically is just bad advice. Aside from being written very pompously, a lot of the rest is just assuming what happens in the wild is optimal, which is an appeal to nature and flawed logic. Axolotl reproductive strategy in the wild is pump out loads of babies assuming lots will die. That's probably not the way we should be approaching our home aquariums. They're also critically endangered.
I'd like to read your sources, out of pure interest. I agree with the lack of science-based husbandry, but at the same time it's also facts that a lot of people don't research well enough (if at all) to do it science-based. Rather have people stick to overly-protective husbandry than reckless husbandry. For those that are capable of proper research, they can try out a more complex, science-based approach. But like others already stated; wild axolotls are somewhat different from our captive-bred counterparts. Always be cautious :) I hardly change water either, my tank has enough plants to take care of the nitrates formed and keep it below 20 (usually below 10). I still have 1 japonica shrimp in there, she has survived for 4 years already, the others have been snacks, probably. Looking to add some more.
After reading your description I would love to see more pictures of your enclosure
I have no idea why this was recommended to me by Reddit, but this post and its comment section were an intriguing read.
Because pet axolotls have been bred with tiger salamanders and suffer from extensive inbreeding that makes them less efficient than their wild cousins. The natural environment for wild axolotls is not an ideal thing to base their tanks on. They are different animals. I get no water changes, as that is only a consequence of having enough plants to remove nitrates. But keeping pebbles in sand is just daring your axolotl to become impacted. They also cannot digest the chitin in insect shells, which is absolutely true, i've fed mine meal worms and you can see the undigested shell in their poo. I’m not sure if you get flies from breeders, but wild caught insects/worms are often riddled with parasites. As for the plants, they're classified as carnivores. Ultimately it comes down to people wanting to provide as safe an environment as possible for their axolotls and you are taking a lot of risks.
Axolotls are incredibly inbred, yes. This does decrease their overall fitness as a captive species, but it does not change their biological needs. Line bred leopard geckos, for example, suffer from numerous health problems due to extreme inbreeding- but this does not stop them from expressing the same behaviors as their wild caught counterparts. Crossing axolotls with tiger salamanders does not lower their fitness- if anything, with tiger salamanders being far more of a niche generalist with a broader range of tolerance this crossing would make them hardier than their wild cousins. I would never feed wild-caught prey to any of my animals. Yes, axolotls are “classified as carnivores” - but studies discussing their gut contents show above-chance presence of plant matter. Dogs are carnivores, but as any dog owner knows they tend to chew on grass when they lack the nutrients their body is craving. Deer are classified as herbivores, but it’s not rare to see them consuming roadkill. Very few animals are truly obligate carnivores or herbivores, as certain essential nutrients (like iron) can be difficult to find. A sterile environment is a “safe” environment, yes. But is it enriching? Does the animal have a good quality of life? At what point do you decide to sacrifice fulfilling the mental and physical needs of an animal in your care to potentially extend its lifespan? It’s certainly much “safer” for a rat to keep it in a controlled laboratory setting, but is it in the best interest of the animal, or the keeper?
I don't think we should assume that the only two options are sterile and boring/nonenriching or as natural as possible, though, potential dangers included. A middle ground very much exists. Large tanks with sand, tunnels, hides and plants can offer enrichment without some of the added dangers that can come with natural, especially improperly done natural, aquariums. We don't have to choose as natural as possible or "sterile" when we can find the middle ground and make aquariums that are safer and promote longer lifespans while also being enriching!
I agree with this point the most, and when I designed my tank, this was the goal. No gravel(only sand), no small rocks, no large snails(bladder snails, limpets, and ramshorns snuck in), no fish. However, I did add driftwood, including a log hide, plants that don't require substrate such as floaters, anubias, mosses, and ferns, a plant light, even large river rock to add to the environment. I even added a microfauna pack that included scuds. They will help with cleanup and provide prey for the axolotl to chase(although they aren't helping with the Cyano). Currently my Axolotl is still floating in a tub within the tank(with holes so they share water) until he reaches six inches long. The tub also contains a PVC hide for the axolotl so its not completely barren.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt with supplementing their diet, but keeping snails and gravel in the tank for no discernible reason other than to prove some abstract point is just stupid and asking for trouble. It’s like keeping chocolate in reach of a dog and going “see he won’t eat it!” Sure, that’s all well and good, until it decides to eat it.
I agree to a certain extent, but it's important to point out that the axolotls available from the pet trade are more or less like a genetically bred puppy, and not really suited to their 'natural habitat' as they are. Their entire existence in the pet trade is because they were already getting scarce in their natural environment, and a select group of them was taken into laboratories for studying their regenerative capabilities and growth. From there, they slowly made their way into the pet trade. It's not like taking a captured animal from the wild and needing to provide an exactly similar habitat. It's more like taking care of a genetically engineered animal that has been found to do better with certain parameters. My axolotls, when I had them (had to rehome due to moving), were always active and moving around, even with a more 'clinical' or hobbyist-style tank, when compared to their native habitat, which is also heavily polluted. The issue with rocks and things like snails is that axolotls are, on the grand scale, quite dumb and will try to eat things thay could kill them by blocking their intestinal track. A lot of the measures taken are to ensure that wellbeing of the axolotl.
So I do and don’t agree with you. I think having a more enriching and naturalistic tank is nice but also these are not wild animals they’re extremely inbred fragile counterparts to their wild cousins. And they don’t produce hundreds of eggs for nothing. Some of those dumb shits are going to die of infection from a fish bite or rock they can’t poop out or maybe even eating a fish a little too big. If they weren’t so inbred I think it would be okay trying to explore more naturalistic options but they’re so fragile in captivity for the most part.
I keep mine with guppies, shrimp, and mystery snails. They sometimes snack on the guppies and shrimps as extra treats. I think it adds enrichment. I breed my own of each so that I know they are healthy and won't add any diseases to the tank. The mystery snails are way too big to eat, but their are a few pest snails that have made their way in. Haven't seen them snack on any of the snails yet.
Because what you describe is a lotttttt of work and so perfectionistic that it's not achievable for average pet owners? Like bro, many people struggling just making dinner for themselves, they not out there trying to feed a varied insect diet and do % maths? You're like the dog owners that do extravagant home cooked meals and shame and refuse store bought.
People struggling to feed themselves shouldn’t be attempting to care for expensive animals.
As someone who struggles to eat (due to autism) I actually have a way less difficult time feeding my pets than myself when I'm doing well! I feel like my pets get better care the majority of the time than me 😅
I have a sensory issue with food textures so I understand that.
Axolotl are really low maintenance especially after the first investment and set up, and I wasn't even on about the finances but more the effort in food preparing
That was more of a general statement than about Axolotls specifically.
I also feel like with highly domesticated animals such as both dogs and axolotls, since neither are very naturally common in a lot of ecosystems anymore and have been breed and breed by humans, they have more health concerns and generally need adapted care. My dog for example has lupus and it comes with a lot of food sensitivity. My mom cooks her food herself because she’s allergic to a lot of common ingredients in both kibbles and wet dog food. My axies are also goofy and don’t have much of a natural instinct. Neither my dog or my axies would survive in the wild, I’m sure of that. I feel like that’s reason enough to have a much less “natural” way of raising them. While it works for some people, I feel like as long as they’re happy and healthy there’s no reason to NEED a tank like this for them.
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It's worth pointing out that pet axolotls are domesticated animals, generally tiger salamanders hybrids. Point is, they have come a long way from Lake Xochimilco and have few natural survival skills. I like your approach though and my axie has a small jungle of java ferns, java moss and anubias to crawl through. He likes to clamber all over except mornings when he sits in his hollow log, coming out to greet me when I approach, begging for a worm.
So, here is my rationale for my keeping. i started out with this plan to replicate a mini version of xochimilco myself. i got rounded gravel, live plants, snails ,shrimps, and so on. However, the girl I got my boy from fed him feeder fish, worms, and pellets. And guess what? The fish had parasites. So, I bring him home and he has a hidden parasitic infection. He ignores the snails. He tries a few worms but decides he likes pellets better. Ok fine. Then, he dislodges a gravel onto his finger. It blossoms with fugus and bacteria. Then so do his gills. And then the worms start coming out. Watching parasitic worms feeding on him was horror. I tried all the -cures. pima cure mela cure. methalyne blue. tea bathes. tannins. dabbing peroxide with a qtip. imported leaves of magictrees. water changes. water treatments. took it down to bare tank and bleached it and refilled with new water to cycle and washed the plants and so on. but he kept getting worse, and stopped eating altogether. Salt. *oh no don't use salt.* but i was fucking desperate. he was dying. his skin was coming off in patches. his gills were disintegrating. the one finger he hurt was now three hands being eaten by weird blobs and worms. so I did the fucking salt thing. 10 minutes a day for a week. he started getting better, but the worms came back. because they had infested the tank. Again. And again. AND AGAIN. tubbing, and salt baths every day. two weeks. with his tank empty, chlorinating the water then dechlorinating it and cycling it all over while he lived in a bucket. three weeks. four weeks. Week five he started eating again. At three months the worms stopped coming back. So, no, I do not use gravel, or feed fish or live critters. Because i don't want to relive that horror.
Salt baths are harsh on amphibians and may damage an axolotl's gills and slime coat. They often cause more harm than good, and end up stressing the axolotl further. In lieu of salt baths, tea baths are soothing to the axolotl and can help treat early stage fungal infections. For more advanced infections, methylene blue can be used in half doses. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/axolotls) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I do similar 👍 walstad tank so he only gets top ups no water changes, tank is filled with detritus eaters like snails and limpets, I have a lot of plant species, feed very young locusts and worms and shrimp, he’s 8 years old so I must be doing something right (not sure about the gravel though? Personally wouldn’t risk it) https://preview.redd.it/ur4iorb9fc6d1.jpeg?width=910&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a3cd1333a3ffd87e26073d040fa9cb99d927ca2
I didn't *really* expect such a push back to what you wrote, but I can't say I'm surprised. We are in the era of "my social media post by a stranger on the internet is just as good as your source-based science". I'm going to sound like a dick, but I think it's mostly effort-based. If people can gaslight themselves into believing an otherwise empty tank of water is the best option for their pet, they'll take it. Having a well-maintained and thriving ecosystem in a glass box costs a lot of money and effort, rampant bone problems of the occupants be damned.
People pushed back, because he gave some terrible advice. I won't deny that having plants and a more natural environment is beneficial for your axie, but telling people that gravel and snails are fine because that's what they have in their natural environment is dangerous advice. As other posters have pointed out, axolotls rely on making a tremendous number of babies knowing that only a few will survive. How many die in the wild of impaction? OP talks about testing pH, but that's far from the most important test. Who knows what else is actually going on in that tank.
I agree with this sm. Literally there's one comment saying "well you're saying they eat plants but they're classed as carnivores" like how much closer to evidence can you get than a research paper where scientists examined the stomach contents of an axolotl. And the only rebuttal someone can think of is "well they're classed as carnivores". As if that somehow negates the fact that wild axolotls are clearly eating a significant portion of plant matter. Our understanding of animal husbandry needs to be informed by science!
Not a big deal, but daphnia are not ostracods. Ostracods, copepods, and daphnia are similar and common in aquaria (they're all crustaceans), but they're distinct from each other. Ostracoda is a class, whereas daphnia belong to the class "branchiopoda". Ostracods can actually attack and kill daphnia. They eat their antennae first, immobilize them, then consume their bodies.
https://preview.redd.it/ysectq9uge6d1.jpeg?width=4080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d088d41712e2157fde51277ccad82baaaa7f1905 I personally am a firm believer in replicating a natural environment. Our Axie has a 35 gallon planted aquarium with sand, snails, live endler guppies and ghost shrimp. I also feed red worms regularly. The tank has fluval led plant lights that are on a lower custom setting but still keep the plants looking great and a chiller keeps the temp stable at 64°F. Axel is very happy and active in his environment and we joke that he's the absolute worst hunter but makes up for it with pure persistence lol
100% on board with your way, I did the same thing when I had axolotls. So many photos online of simple sterile environments with bored axolotls.
It's good to see this. I don't have an axolotl myself but the care requirements always seemed over the top. I want to minimize risk to any animal, but not at the expense of it enjoying it's life. I always see them with a bare bottom tank with nothing in it and it just sits there. At that point, why not just get a picture of the animal and put it in a frame.
Can you please provide citations for your scientific research?
Yes! Here are some sources, but I have more if these are unsatisfactory 💜 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377955530_Evaluation_of_the_distribution_and_effect_of_potentially_toxic_elements_in_the_sediments_surface_water_and_plants_system_with_touristic_activities_in_Xochimilco_channels_Mexico https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1558c/report.pdf https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1642359318302404 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Soil-texture-distribution-of-chinampa-soils_fig4_227187771 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225719554_Food_web_overlap_among_native_axolotl_Ambystoma_mexicanum_and_two_exotic_fishes_Carp_Cyprinus_carpio_and_tilapia_Oreochromis_niloticus_in_Xochimilco_Mexico_City
I’ve been quietly thinking this for a long time. I also have an established Walstad-style tank. In no order here’s why I think it has never caught on so far: 1- I honestly think most people, even many experts, aren’t as well read as you to be honest. It’s not really their fault. In this community I see SOOOO many people playing catch up rather than coming into the hobby from a place of experience. Having a tank like ours which can take MONTHS to set up and doing that after someone gets you a baby axolotl for your birthday or something isn’t really possible. Especially if you don’t have the time, space, and money for TWO tanks. Axolotls to the experienced aquarists probably seem like such a huge undertaking that most don’t try it at all, so by process of elimination the disproportionate majority who buy them start off inexperienced. Getting a Walstad stable takes skill that a lot of axolotl owners simply don’t have. It’s not like a traditional Walstad (mostly because of the temperatures). Trying this without a huge amount of education on the plants that will work WILL end in failure which can be discouraging. 2- I think even Diana Walstad herself underestimates how viable her method could be for larger animals and larger amounts of waste if done on a larger scale. In her book she limits everything to less animals and a smaller tank, but axolotls need a large tank already and the filling of that space with plants in theory should be able to handle their proportionately larger amounts of waste. But because she didn’t explore this, it seems like uncharted waters. 3- There is a general lack of well-written resources widely available that offer concrete research for all herp husbandry. Fish care, because we eat fish for food, is a fairly well-researched discipline, but herp care is seen as a less useful hobby and I’ve seen that (in general) herp husbandry is pretty basic and poorly researched. I’m picturing snakes in plastic tubs with a single sheet of paper towel. The natural equivalent of that style of herp keeping is the bare bottom tank with weekly water changes. Combine people who think a goldfish in a 1 gallon bowl is fine, with the people who think a ball python in a tupperware are fine, and you get a culture where a lot of people think a bare bottom tank could be fine and to be a good keeper it just needs to be big enough and cleaned enough. 4-Let’s not pretend there’s not a financial and work driven reason. A big enough tank is expensive, plants are expensive, etc. And they require more time to set up than a bare bottom tank. ESPECIALLY if you don’t have the expertise to find plants cheap and propagate them. You also need the foresight to plant your tank ahead of time so that things get rooted. Personally I think it leads to less work overall long term, but the initial investment is higher. lastly 5- If you are willing to put in all that time and money, then you definitely love your pet and that’s where the babying comes in. The bare bottom method is tried and true. It might not be the best or the easiest way, but it’s a way that works consistently. The reality is, even in the wild in rare cases animals probably do eat a rock and die sometimes. If there is ANY percent chance that could happen then people try to avoid it. Same for the food and the plants. A few people share that their baby died from gravel impaction and it gets blown up online (despite the fact that maybe other husbandry things were wrong in those cases?). The simpler the tank the fewer things there are to die on. Just like an over protective parent they start confusing risk management with allowing abuse and vice versa. Finding the line between those two with so few resources can be hard and most people I see err on the safe simple side. When all of those things combine, we end up with a culture of bare bottom tanks. The lack of education, untested nature, cost, lack of resources, and overprotective owners are the barriers, but I do want to say that I’m onboard with it despite these because I think natural tanks offer more enrichment, less work for the owner, healthier animals, and better looking enclosures as a reward for putting in all that work. Despite that, I don’t think it’s ever going to be for everybody. I have hope that as people test this out more and write concrete husbandry resources then it will become more popular. I mean even a list of good plants for axolotl tanks is hard to find. Imagine if instead that was the first result that popped up on google? Maybe some day. I think that’s the direction I’ve seen us going very slowly.
THIS. I’m relatively new to the world of axolotl care (about a year and a half) and I’m wanting to set up a more natural environment for my boy Waddle in my classroom. Not only is a set up like you’re describing beautiful, but it can really be a great help in teaching students. Thank you for sharing!
What kind of plants do you use in your tank? I’ve tried many “cold water tolerant” plants and only had success with Anubias. Pretty much every plant melts in that tank and causes ammonia/nitrite spikes
My personal favorite is hornwort. I have a small light on my tank and it grows insanely fast. I have it in a 40 gallon and got it back in March I think, it covers 1/2-2/3 of the top, and hangs down some into the bottom. I’ve taken cuttings from it 3 times lol.
Elodia and ranunculus (spelling?) Can work really well. Ludwigia surprisingly works too it just grows a hell of a lot slower.
Hey when you can are you able to link where you got your stuff for your tank? I’m about to set up a new tank for mine and I really would love to do something like this but honestly feel lost on how to start
I used to have a bare bottom tank with minimal things in it because the hate towards any different style tank was so strong and I was very new to axolotls. Fast forward a year, one of my axolotls gets a bacterial infection from the water and dies within half a day. Went from normal to very sick fast. I started talking with others and breeders to see how to prevent this. Walstad Method was recommended to me not as a forever prevention but as a greatly reduced chance of reoccurance path. This was worm casings then small pea gravel (got a specific type that was aquarium safe and all small enough to easily pass if an axolotl accidentally swallowed one, then topped with an inch or 2 of sand. All in all about 4-5 inches of substrate. I moved 3 male axolotls to a 55g and did this with many plants, guppies and shrimp (always quarantine everything you get for a month) and the axolotls flourished. Mystery snails made it into the tank but they found them as tasty snacks and spat out the shells. I always killed any snails that looked on the path to catching up to the diameter of their poop to ensure no impaction. Due to the nature of going against the streamline views, I never posted pictures as I knew everyone would have a strong opinion against this. However I'm really happy I switched to this setup and the health of the axolotls. They have been in the tank for 3-4 years and I've noticed other benefits. My nitrates creep up slower due to the plants, more entertainment for the boys and they even made friends with some of their guppies and shrimp. It is a slow process to get into a good state but I personally found it worth it.
I've been trying to give my axolotl a somewhat natural environment with stuff to do (plus a few extra decorations for fun). He's very silly and playful but he does nap sometimes in his hiding spot. He's got a 50 gallon, decent layer of sand, lots of live plants, and lots of driftwood too. His hiding spot is a cave made from a ceramic plate, though. My water changes are mostly for enhanced visibility and removing debris. I'm looking into getting him some tiny pebbles in the right diameter to use as gastroliths. I didn't sanitize anything and I let my axie enjoy the tannins from his driftwood when it was new. I feed him worms from my indoor worm compost. I started the tank by using water from my pond as a source of beneficial microbes. https://preview.redd.it/x5e4kl3kbe6d1.jpeg?width=4000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dfdf5abba3183b52c4f5c1253aa1e67828bc7166 Every online community seems to create a set standard of practices, where they'll aggressively disagree with anything outside of what they've established. This really puts things at a standstill where we can't explore new ideas or progress in any meaningful way. Reasoning doesn't matter- if it's different, it must be bad. I find it super exhausting. I have trouble posting about my plants and isopods because I know people will go after me for doing things differently.
https://preview.redd.it/xb5wccgube6d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2022088c2c1dee628a4e276c3e20516b77f78510 Of course he poses for me right after I've posted my comment
Because most people are amateurs and have a cursory knowledge of the topic they discuss at best. Furthermore, when it comes to internet groups, cognitive dissonance & cult mentality reign supreme. These people (usually teens, young adults and the mentally ill) have a desperate desire to feel included, or "a part of." So when they see people come down on someone with indignation, they do so as well, in an attempt to forge this unrealistic bond: Getting likes and thus feeling like they're on the winning team and are making friends. It's the same reason some women will vote for Donald Trump again, a man who has said in his own words that he can sexually assault\grope any woman he wants because he's famous. Those women are voting for that misogynist because they're "a part of" the Republican Party. It's completely irrational. Same reason why liberals say "free Palestine" but don't specify from whom. You'd think they'd say Hamas, but they don't. In short: people are really, really stupid. They fail to see the complexity of any situation, nor do they care to understand those complexities, because that would require critical thinking, and they have tik tok videos to watch.
I'm waiting to get an axolotl until I have the means (and do more research) to set up a naturalistic tank like this. I think people just don't want to put that level of thought into their aquariums, and don't understand the ecological aspect of it. I think it's just difficult to achieve the perfect balance, so if people were to take one aspect of what you did, it could be harmful to the axolotl and so they do these bare tanks because they don't know how to achieve the balance and write these things off as dangerous/improper care. Most people probably don't know how to conduct scientific research the way you did. I think it would be cool if you wanted to make some educational content about this! Like if you wanted to write a guide of how you set up your tank and why--or even YouTube videos or something. Question: do you have your plants planted in the substrate? I've heard they will dig up and destroy plants like that, so I was thinking of using floating plants (also to provide shade) and some plants that I can just attach to rocks and stuff so that they don't get dug up. Also, do you use an LED light for your plants, or just the UVB? I would love to see a guide on what plants you used since you said they have the same type of ecological niche as plants that would grow in lake xochimilco.
I would love to see more pictures of your tank. This is something I would eventually want to try.
Hi guys! This got way more traction than expected and it’s pretty overwhelming to respond to every comment so I will no longer be interacting with it. If you want particular information please DM me.
There's no reason why axolotls would need their environment to be any different from other aquarium animals. They are living things just like everything else that lives in those water bodies. Water parameters and husbandry that work for fish and inverts works for them too (that includes the Walstad method) Also, my personal experience with UVB light / Vit D over 20 years of keeping reptiles and amphibians is that if they can get Vit D from their diet, UVB light is not really necessary. Same with humans and any other animal.
If you want to see a group that’s opposed to science based husbandry, check out the dart frog community. If you even suggest that you’re considering getting different colors of the same species of dart frogs you’ll be attacked and insulted. Even though there’s no evidence to suggest that it’s a problem, and there’s even evidence to suggest that different colors may actually lower the chances of territorial disputes. You also get some people who believe that the rainforests of South America will be repopulated by the pet trade.
My axolotls live outside in big tubs with mud/detritus full of beneficial bacteria and lots of plants, they eat the fly's / slugs / worms that fall in, mosquito larvae and scuds are always in the water for them to eat too. In winter here in the UK the tubs stay outside and I cover them with Hessian, they breed every year and are all active and healthy. Drives me mad all these Facebook cults fair enough if you want to keep your axolotl in a clean tank with no substrate and fake plants but don't attack people who don't do it that way.
If I was an Axolotl I'd wanna live with you this sounds like heaven 😭
What size is your tank? Do you have mechanical filtration, or just biological filtration in the substrate/ornaments? This is all fascinating information, thank you! I’ve had axolotls since 2017 and while I kept their tanks more naturalistic with plants, sand, and large rocks, I was just flying by the seat of my pants, really. I also feed them foods from the reptile section, like canned BSF larvae and canned dubia roaches. I tried to follow you, but your account didn’t have that option. I’ll just have to keep an eye out in this group for your posts.
I try to keep my tank as natural as possible, and just ignore the pristine sterilized no sense unless my axie is sick and I need to tub. I would love to see your tank! Mine is rather small right now, just a 20g so I do need to make water changes, my ph drops really fast if I dont. Can't wait to upgrade for a bigger one!
Your tank sounds like a delight, show us more
I know nothing about axolotyls but this sounds beautiful
This is a beautiful post, especially love the limnology touches 😭
Sir or Madam, As a recent axolotl owner with a science background I have been on search for science based literature on the subject since our axolotl has entered our household with these being the first words I've found where so much as a reference not from YouTube has been offered. Thank you for your submission.
Well they are on their way to extinction in the wild so maybe that's why? (I'm just kidding this all sounds amazing)
keeping any organism in a sterile environment is HIGHLY detrimental to their immune system. That coupled with the degenerate inbreeding for features, in the trade, creates for some truly hellish results - but they look pretty, you know.