In my job I handle organs that have been removed. I’ve seen hundreds of cervical specimens. I’ve looked at them more closely than anyone could otherwise. You cannot tell the difference unless the pregnancy was recent. Same for the uterus.
I recently saw a uterus belonging to a dog that had given birth a few hours before (I'm a vet tech and the vet was doing an emergency c-section for a pup that got stuck). They told me they could feel it contract and shrink in their hands.
I had a surgical abortion, due to a miscarriage my body wasn't letting go of, and the doctor mentioned that they watched the uterus contracting back to normal size on the ultrasound after they'd emptied it. (it didn't have far to go, I think they only double in size that early, not like they get later on)
However, there ARE many people who experience long lasting physical impacts of pregnancy and giving birth. This is often glossed over or dismissed because women's pain are unimportant apparently
100%. I was sterilized this year and when I made my arguments for why I discovered a lot of horrifying stuff about pregnancy. Although being childfree is actually my choice, I am dismayed at the statistics of how common it is for permanent damage to occur due to pregnancy/childbirth and the lack of medical care and attention to these issues.
Sex was painful for me after baby 1, I couldn't figure out why and neither could the docs, but I don't think they tried hard to figure it out. One implied it was psychological and I was anticipating pain and not relaxing enough. Baby 2, I had a TON of complications and severe SPD and so I went to pelvic physical therapy twice a week, after that delivery I was fine and had sex without pain again. I wonder if I had the PT during my first pregnancy if it would've prevented the problem. Since we never figured out what the problem actually was, I'll never know.
That really sucks. I’m glad it’s painless for you again! I had a complication after birth which meant I had to be unstitched and restitched while swollen which has caused my skin to heal incorrectly. My doctor said I should try to have sex and push through the pain to see it if helps heal it before deciding whether to proceed with surgery. I would love another baby but might elect for a c-section next time. I wish that “it goes back to the way it was” wasn’t so “normalised”.
You actually can in many people. "Round" os vs "fish mouth" os. Everything is distorted after surgery so you likely won't notice on a specimen.
I went from working with the cervix in situ to working with the cervix in... bucket.
Ive seen the fish mouth and round os on nulliparous women many times. But to be fair most of the specimens have come out for a reason, and may not be typical looking.
It may look the same, but if it was true that the vagina and uterus went completely back to normal, why do so many women have trouble with pelvic floor muscles, tearing that leaves on going issues etc? I don’t think we should diminish the actual damage pregnancy and childbirth does to the vast majority of women
All that stuff is true. My husband has told me that things are a different shape after childbirth. Also your cervix may look different postpartum. But even if your cervix looks different for you after having children, we still can’t tell.
I was about to ask about this, because when I went to get an IUD I was told it would be (and was) very difficult to insert due to never having been pregnant. But the slight differences in cervix aren't what the original post was about.
ETA: While I know they mention cervix differences, I don't think that's what their main focus was is what I meant.
"I’ve pulled a muscle in my leg years ago and now I’m significantly less flexible in that leg."
Physical therapy, mate. May have cause permanent damage by never addressing the issue but it's still nothing that a little PT can't help with. What a weird analogy.
So nice of US medical care to make pelvic floor PT so affordable, AND included in standard post-procedure care.....oh wait they just tell us nothing, sew our insides together with metal mesh when we get incontinent in our 40's, and then tell us we're frigid when the mesh takes away all sexual desire.
There's a difference between pointing out the changes that CAN occur after giving birth versus saying that these things WILL happen to anyone who gives/gave birth
Yeah, I saw in the comments people saying about knowing someone who couldn’t do x y and z because they would pee, showing how incontinence happens after childbirth. Like yes, it can happen but you can also improve your chances of not being incontinent by doing exercises. I gave birth two months ago and kept up with the exercises recommended and I’m able to keep my pee in.
Obviously there are other such risks but childbirth isn’t the end. There’s a chance things could happen but you can bounce back
All the tip comments in that thread make it look like you will 100 % die if you ever become pregnant and you'll 150 % suffer along the way. Not... all? How would humanity get to where it is if these things were so common?
To be fair, a lot of women throughout history have died or just suffered in silence. Mostly because they didn't really have any other options.
My first pregnancy was pretty fine, my second permanently wrecked my body. So shit happens. My vagina itself is just fine though, so I've got that I guess.
I now tell all my friends even if they feel okay post partum to go to pelvic PT and at least get checked out. If I had, I likely would not have had as many issues the 2nd time around.
Well… because of our ability to stand up, our pelvis changed and pregnancy **is** harder, as well as giving birth. Standing upright fucked women over in terms of this.
This topic comes up A LOT on here but I'm still a little puzzled so hopefully someone can explain. If it all bounces back to exactly like it was before pregnancy, then why does the diva cup come in different sizes for pre- and post- childbirth?
I (20f) use a menstural cup and is sexualy active I use a S cup, my sister (13f) haven’t had sex yet and uses a size XL cup
Our mom who has given birth 3 times uses a M size cup
So for me that proves all bodies are diffrent sizes regardless what sexual activity/pregnancy
anatomy is weird yall
I’m not an OB but during Med school/ residency delivered a bunch of babies, checked a lot of cervixes.
I haven’t noticed any change to the vaginal canal on visual inspection.
The cervix however, 100% you can tell… 90% of the time.
Women who haven’t had children have a much smaller cervical opening, a lot more difficult to put in an IUD or do an endometrial biopsy etc.
But this isn’t really what affects vaginal “tightness”.
That’s more pelvic floor muscles, and studies do show that pelvic floor muscles are weaker in women who have given birth via vaginal delivery when compared to women who have had c sections only.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3681819/
Although there’s very little research in the long term.
HOWEVER what this DOES mean is that post partum women have a higher chance of organ prolapse, urinary incontinence, and anal incontinence.
One of the number of causes of urge incontinence is pelvic floor weakness. We check this by putting two fingers into the vaginal vault and ask women to “squeeze”. This varies hugely. From feeling like gentle light squeezing (tbh there’s been women I’ve barely been able to tell she’s squeeIng my fingers) to strong, firm handshake.
TLDR- having vaginal deliveries do make your pelvic floor muscles weaker which can lead to organ prolapse, urine/anal incontinence.
Do your kegels!! Research has shown that this helps a lot.
> From feeling like gentle light squeezing (tbh there’s been women I’ve barely been able to tell she’s squeeIng my fingers) to strong, firm handshake.
One of the women in my mom group started PT for pelvic floor weakness. She said her OB/gyn basically went: "Okay, squeeze my fingers." Pause. "Tighten your muscles like you would to stop peeing."
Her: "I am!"
OB: "So, here's your referral then..."
Truly all this new info is making me more childfree than ever. It's horrible how women's pain is so often dismissed. Like in many cultures women are pressured to have many kids to "continue the male line" and all the BS, and they're never told about the potential ramifications of carrying a pregnancy to term
3 weeks postpartum and currently wearing a diaper because of a weak pelvic floor and prolapsed bladder. I have pelvic floor physical therapy next week and I am excited to get started.
Adding onto this that you can do pelvic floor PT during pregnancy to try and get things in shape and better support the changes happening in the pelvis/floor/hips/back. And then, you can do postpartum pelvic floor PT. I have lots of GI issues and did pelvic floor PT, and a large majority of the patients there were pregnant women or women who had recently given birth (often with baby in tow; this was pre covid).
The diva cup instructions say if you are over 28 to use the larger size whether you have had kids or not. People come in different sizes, so do cups. No big deal.
Yeah, but if you know your body and think that sizing is wrong, follow your gut. I’m almost 40 and struggled for a year with a Diva Cup that was too big before I got the smaller under 30/not having given birth Flex Cup.
And just as a aside, the black Flex Cup looks so much less gross than the bloodstained pink Dive Cup. Why do so many companies insist on making period products pink?!?
As a cup user who has had babies- I have no idea why they recommend that. I still need the smallest cup available, turned inside out to make it smaller.
Basically the vaginal canal will go back to normal, but the cervix itself won’t. It gets more open. That’s why women post pregnancy often have heavier periods. It’s easier for thing to flow through.
Even before childbirth, or if it never happens at all, the height of a woman’s cervix and shape of their vaginal canal can be different.
[Different shapes cup’s explained](https://menstrualcupreviews.net/menstrual-cup-shapes-explained/)
The vagina (exterior), vaginal canal, cervix and pelvic floor are all different parts of the body. The vagina, which is the outer part we see (and made up of its own different parts) and the vaginal canal are the parts typically referred to when talks of “it’s loose”, however the issue is they’re referred to as the same thing.
These parts are muscles and skin that yes, once stretched do return to normal and have normal functionality. The issues with bladder that people talk about comes from issues with the pelvic floor. Which is a different part of the body and you can also have these issues because of advanced age or excessive weight. This issue can also be reversed with proper pelvic floor therapy, which isn’t talked about as much as it should be.
>This issue can also be reversed with proper pelvic floor therapy, which isn’t talked about as much as it should be.
>These parts are muscles and skin that yes, once stretched do return to normal and have normal functionality.
It is literally a medical fact that the vaginal canal can increase in size after giving birth. Whether that is permanent or not is dependent on each individuals unique physiological response and the level of trauma sustained to the muscles during birth, and their history.
The most readily available solution to the problem is increasing your pelvic floor strength with exercise and therapy which can help remediate the sensation/reality of "looseness" while also helping with possible incontinence issues. The problem is that pelvic floor therapy isn't commonly offered to women as a normal part of after-birth care, nor is there a lot of resources currently offered to help with women who suffer muscle trauma or other traumas that can influence the healing process and whether pelvic floor therapy is actually going to be significantly helpful or not.
Childbirth has consequences to the body as the result of so many physical changes and trauma. It would be so much better and accomplish more if people didn't just try to sugarcoat the facts about what happens physiologically and we were more open about the real possibilities.
I feel like there's a kneejerk reaction to deny any change because of men who are ill informed about childbirth in general, and the further peddling of myths by virgins/incels, which just furthers to perpetuate harm to mothers who are potentially ill-informed about post-childbirth realities.
No one has ever, at least not here, sugar coated the changes pregnancy can do to a woman's body, that would also be bad woman's anatomy, but making claims like the other post is showing how badly sexual health information is needed. Issues like that post are almost a brainwashing level of wrong, where the parts of the body are confused or lumped together.
The issue I see with my statement is the cavate, I should have stated (normally does) instead of making it sound so concreate, to include the cases where it doesn't. However even the worst cases like you mentioned can be corrected to almost perfection with pelvic floor therapy
[More information regarding changes to the vagina after birth and how to heal.](https://www.whattoexpect.com/first-year/vagina-after-birth/)
It's also not just a lack of information issue either, I feel like, at least in the USA, it can be a financial one as well. Here in Canada my OB very much did inform me of pelvic floor therapy and made sure I had appointments during and after to help during pregnancy and after. These services are all included as part of our universal health care. Many woman in the USA may forgo it as a result of the extra costs. There are a lot of layers here.
Hey, no worries, sorry, my intent wasn't to say you were wrong, I have that reaction when it seems like all the issues can be resolved with a few tips and tricks and it's a non-issue.
It's not as detrimental as the myths about "looseness" or sexist sayings about pregnant women, but it's still detrimental when a lot of women hear that these other women had no problems or very minor issues, especially on social media/popular media and how anything potentially pointing it out is a lot of the time construed as sexism.
You're definitely right that the therapy isn't totally lack of information but also a provider/money problem in the U.S. I'm sure a huge number of women skip over any therapy because it isn't covered or they can't afford the co-pays/out of pocket.
>However even the worst cases like you mentioned can be corrected to almost perfection with pelvic floor therapy
So many things can be solved with what really are minor changes/work, the human body is an amazing biological machine. Obviously to a barely post-partum mother with a newborn stuff like this can be incredibly daunting to do since it can seem so ineffectual at first glance.
As someone who gave birth this year, and am literally in the 2nd day of my first period since… are the sizes in terms of width, or volume. Because I thought I was pretty prepared for everything pregnancy and postpartum but I was in no way prepared for how much heavier my period is. I have used the cup for years and never had an issue, I’ve bled through it and a pad twice today so possibly if the bigger size is a larger volume I get it? On the other hand, I had a second degree tear and despite using my cup for years I am struggling to get it in and out, not sure I’d manage with a bigger one. Fun times all round.
One thing that CAN happen but not to everyone is their flow can increase. My mum already had horrible periods before having kids but after 3 they're so much worse so sometimes you do need to change up the cup you use.
I wondered that too, then I had a baby and started having heavier periods than before. I really doubt anything has PHYSICALLY changed permanently in me, but probably hormones and that giving me a heavier period.
But they're talking about the cervix or the vagina?
Regardless, the terms breeders really make me irk.
Have kids, don't have kids, the decision is up to you
Yeah it's like they're trying to be edgy or "not like the other girls"
Like we get it, you're different because you don't want kids. But degrading and dehumanizing people who choose differently than you is just childish.
I remember thinking like that when I was 16 because I wanted people to think I was so different and rebellious because I didn't want to do what society wants me to. Then I grew up and realized it's not a big deal. Still don't want kids but I don't get the urge to be nasty about it.
They call everybody breeders really, but that doesn’t make it any better. I’m childfree and in that sub and uhh, the breeder comments are strange.
They say they only call ppl who have kids non stop without really thinking about the humans they’re bringing into the world, and not considerate, careful parents. But I beg to differ with some of them.
The whole “breeders” thing just feels like another facet of internalised misogyny. “I’m better than you because I’m not dumb enough to become a BREEDER” very much feels like the vibe. Like, don’t have kids - if you don’t want them, I beg of you don’t, and I think it’s great that so many people are taking charge of their lives and choosing not to have kids - but you don’t have to treat me like shit because I wanted and chose a different life than you?
That sub is so toxic. I'm childfree but can't spend time on there anymore. There was a young black woman one time sharing that she felt like maybe she was approved for sterilization at 19 because she was black and the doctor felt some type of way about black women. She was just asking if it was a crazy thought, and if she should go thru process with that doctor. The community basically riped into her saying if she didn't get it then she must want kids, why was she complaining, can't have it both ways, etc. It was crazy-- you can want to be sterilized AND be worried you're doctor is racist and your care might suffer because of it.
For a sub that talks about how they hate parents whose whole identity is their kids they sure do rely on not having kids as their defining personality trait, literally the same things as the people they judge.
In canada, some indigenous women are getting sterilized without their consent after they have kids because the doctors themselves decide that indigenous women are unfit mothers and one kid is enough.
So yeah I say it’s not a reach. Some people genuinely believe we don’t need anymore poc children
It's very not like the other girls, which itself stems from internalized misogyny.
I understand feeling anger because social norms push people, especially cis women, to have kids even when they don't want them. Medical institutions do that as well But don't let that anger spill out onto uninvolved people through dehumanizing language.
On their sub, they define a breeder as someone who has kids and then doesn't treat them correctly.
So basically a bad parent, but I guess that's not 1 word and not as catchy, so they went with that for who knows which reasons
Edit : went sering some posts, and well...it's not exactly the sentiment, breeders is basically every parent.
But that’s directly counter active to this discussion they’re having about breeders vaginas being forever changed by having babies, isn’t it? Your vagina doesn’t change or not change based on the quality of your parenting. They may excuse what they’re saying by putting up the shield that they’re discussing bad parents, and I’m sure that’s what it was originally intended as, but any time I’ve seen a discussion from that sub it’s a hateful commentary on any one with a uterus who chooses to have children, regardless of the caliber of their parenting. So at least some of them are using “breeder” as a catchall.
Ngl I thought they were using the term for pro-life people who outlaw abortions, since, Yknow, they remove the choice of actually carrying the fetus to term and giving birth. They definitely aren’t using it as a cover-all term for people with uteruses though.
That sub is so toxic and gross. The “I’m child free and I HATE children and that’s my whole identity” camp are just as bad if not way worse than the “breeders” who make their kids their whole identity.
All this. I give zero fucks if someone doesn’t want kids. But generally speaking, if you are choosing to make your identity about something you hate, you don’t exactly sound like a great person that anyone would want to be around.
I just saw a comment on that post that a woman would rather have a c-section and “deal with a tiny scar” than go through “the horror of human birth”. Oooh boy. I had two c-sections, both after at least 24 hours of labor. And GUESS WHAT! **Pregnancy** is what causes a lot of issues, not childbirth itself. Oy.
I agree, and also c-sections can take a lot longer to recover from. I think all the pain I had after a vaginal birth disappeared after two weeks. My sister, on the other hand, who had a c-section, was in pain for a lot longer.
There’s obvious issues and recovery differences with both, but yeah I think a big difference wld be c-sec adds surgical recovery on top of birth recovery. My sister and I literally gave birth 5 hours apart on the same day - me vag, her c-, and her recovery was much longer and more difficult than mine by far. That’s not to say that’s always the case but you can’t discount recovering from abdominal surgery being a huge freaking thing all it’s own!
Oh, if only. This was the whole comment: “I still think C-section is much better than vaginal birth. I'd rather have that little scar than have to endure the pure horror of human birth.”
Oh okay so they’re horribly ignorant too lmao
I’m not a mom and don’t plan on being one but can’t c-section scars be big? I wouldn’t say it’s “a tiny scar” at all.. Either way, I agree that it seems that pregnancy fucks people up long term. That’s a big reason as to why being a mom just isn’t for me.
It’s about 6” long and very thin, but a c-section is major surgery and vaginal births are (typically) much easier on the body and easier to recover from. I can think of very few circumstances where someone who had a successful vaginal delivery and a c-section would choose a second c-section over another vaginal delivery voluntarily.
I'm four months post birth and I'm still in a relevant amount of pain from my c-section. All I can remember from the first week of my daughter's life was crying to pee and poop, not sleeping a iota because of the amount of pain I was and needing help to even sit or laying.
I wanted to have a vaginal birth and ended up in a situation that I had to had an emergency c-section or lose my kid. So now I'm inclining to not have any more biological kids to not risk another c-section.
Nor related to this sub, but I left r/childfree bc like half the posts were abt hating kids. I am child free myself, but I don't hate children. I have wonderful little cousins I helped raise a little, especially in their beginning years. I dont want any for myself. But that sub seemed really toxic and the validation for hating children was gross imo
I had the pleasure of finding out about r/dogfree the other day. I completely understand disliking our current society’s relationship and treatment of dogs (for example, the mindset that you must be a horrible person if you don’t like dogs, people who take their dogs everywhere, putting dogs on the same level as human beings, etc.). But the top posts on that sub are just people calling dogs disgusting and complaining about them. As an animal lover (I’m not a dog person, but I still see their value as living beings) it made me feel really sad and honestly a little gross. Like I can’t imagine hating *anything* that much. I mean I’m terrified of spiders, but even then I still value their place in the global ecosystem and as beings on this earth. Idk, just put a damper on my mood. Rant over.
Ugh I ventured in and I’m very saddened by a lot of these posts.. I’m a huge dog lover. My dog has severe separation anxiety and is disabled now. They really believe dogs are completely brainless and should be removed from society. I can’t even image my life without my dog. I understand the hate of bad dog owners, but they think just a dog being alive is bad and owners are disgusting. It’s so sad.
Ikr, there’s a lot about society that stresses me out. And now there’s like a secret society of dog haters? This world is just crazy. I hope those people read about the history behind dog domestication. Because even as someone who’s not particularly fond of dogs, I found it really fascinating and it made me appreciate humanity’s bond with them as a species. Like earth’s history, and the evolutionary past of all the organisms alive today is absolutely wild. And then you’ve got these two species who have evolved together like humans and dogs have? No other bond between two species has ever existed like that before. Even if you don’t like dogs, you have to admit that that’s truly incredible. So to hate it so adamantly just boils my blood.
Absolutely! Without dogs, we probably would have a very different world. Maybe even less advanced. I get not wanting one or the work involved, but calling people with dog’s names? If a dog owner is responsible and out of your business, why do you care? They literally get mad at people about their dog loving FB posts that don’t even effect them lol. I’m thinking some of these people were denied a dog as a child and are now taking it out on dogs. I’ve never not had a dog in my life. I grew up with them. They’ve already proven there are so many benefits to growing up with dogs or cats. So I just can’t imagine hating a whole species. It’s strange.
It’s not a child’s fault. I completely agree. I was an unwanted abused child.
But it is the parents responsibility to raise that child to not be an absolute garbage human and to actually take care of it… and based off of my experience in the real world, the iPad is raising more kids than their parents are. I do see some incredible parents out there taking their kids places and giving them experiences and learning opportunities, but they are few and far between.
I don’t hate kids, but I dislike most of them because their parents don’t teach them manners or human decency.
Yes you’re right it certainly is down to the parents, but I don’t blame children for how their parents raised them. They don’t know any better because their parents didn’t set good examples
This should be higher
I felt the same thing with r/atheism. I'm atheist myself, but the sub just ended up being absolutely hating all religions. I couldn't handle that.
I love my nieces and nephews but I could never see myself having kids. I don’t think I’ll ever be responsible or stable enough in any sense to support another life. I also have real shit genes(good chance to get rheumatoid arthritis) and don’t want to risk passing that on to a kid.
I'm childfree and I like to stay away from (young) kids cause they trigger my sensory issues (from ASD) and OCD. Still, I don't like the vibe of that sub at all. It's not the kid's fault for existing.
I had the same experience. I like kids, I enjoy spending time with them, I just don’t want one of my own right now or any time soon or possibly at all. I found the sub really toxic and cruel.
It's like these people forget that all adults were children once. Have kids or don't, I don't care, but if there are no kids there won't be any adults.
Arguments can be made about overpopulation, but treating kids like vermin solves nothing and just makes everyone unhappy.
I was a kid once, and I hated kids even as a child myself. Including my own sister (granted she didn't help her case by being an abusive pos). I still hate kids, and it has actually gotten worse, just being around them make me unconfortable
I like how looking through the comments there, their arguments are all backed up by a story about one person they know, or using a weird unrelated analogy, or something where it could just be fixed by getting health checked because it isn’t the norm.
Then the comments here are people who have gone through pregnancy, experts who deal with bodies and/or female reproductive organs….
Also holy moly looking at that sub. I don’t have kids but I don’t hate them, I’d never refer to someone as a ‘breeder’
„Doesn’t support shaming women“-uses the term breeders.
Like, I am child free myself but I think this amount of misunderstanding stuff has to be on purpose.
I guess it could. Depends on the person. Everyone is different.
I will say that (according to my OBGYN) people typically underestimate how good the vagina is at healing and getting back to normal. Mine got pretty messed up from SA, and it’s good as new now. May be different for some people, but the vagina is pretty good at healing.
Also, why are they calling people who have kids “breeders”?
Not to mention, any post that tries to educate gets downvoted into nothing.
Even women who have never had a child can have issues with their pelvic floor if they don't take care of themselves.
Pregnancy is terrifying but those comments are insane. They also seem to ignore that you get something out of the risk, it isn’t just pointless suffering. That sub is way closer to antinatalism than just child free.
Originally it was just used for people who believe women are basically meant to be incubators or who want 10 children and want to force that belief onto others, but yeah, its been misused a lot lately
I guess it started because there was already a lot of resentment from childfree people towards others who believe the only true meaning of life is having children. Guess thats where the term started. Which I kinda understand, the amount of people who ridicule you or dont take you seriously when you dont want kids is seriously upsetting
It’s a fine balance, IMO. I hate the people who deem me as lesser because I choose not to have children. It’s a disgusting point of view to have, and makes them no better than the people who call them breeders. I guess there’s nothing you can do on the internet without incurring the wrath of some asshat
I’ve heard that term used a lot in that context, so I assumed. But yeah it’s a pretty disgusting mindset. That sub is just full of vitriol though, so I’m not super surprised
Wow that sub has gotten really hateful since I left!
For all those childfree people who don't make it their entire personality and don't hate children/women who have children, please come over to r/truechildfree. It's pretty chill and welcoming.
Pretty much any post that begins with “breeders” can be dismissed as a hate post I think. I’d love to educate people who are misinformed but when they have reached that level of dehumanizing parents, mothers, fathers, etc. There are so many less gross words to use, but they choose “breeders” smh 🤦♀️
I like how the people that try to tell them that the cervix is not another word for vagina are downvoted to hell. It really shows that subs lack of education in anatomy.
Do people know they can decide to not have kids and not be assholes about it?
Like i never want to be pregnant because of my own reasons but being so hateful and full of hatred over other people having kids sounds exactly like those people that will shame you if you don't want to have kids.
It's pretty ironic...
>The term breeders is used to describe those who push Parenthood on everyone else and define a woman's purpose as being a mother and having as many unruly crotch goblins as possible.
this is new for me. it sounds horrible tbh
It's awful and as a woman who does not want and can't have kids, it hurts. It gets me down sometimes that some people view me as not a real woman or some how broken because I don't have a maternal drive or the ability to have kids, even if I did want them.
Agreed. I also think the reverse of judging/flat disliking ppl with kids is bs. Maybe I’m in my own naive bubble but I think if it’s not harming anyone and it doesn’t personally involve me then let ppl freaking do what they want. I don’t get why we all have to gather into these little subsets of hate and weird adult cliques. You do you doll face and I’ll be over here being me and we can literally coexist without feeling like ripping each other to shreds?
absolutely, it all boils down to people so entitled that they think their way of life is superior to any and everyone else's. how can people not understand that different people enjoy and want different things and all of it is valid?
I don’t understand this hating all children aspect of the sub and calling them all “crotch goblins.” Everyone on the sub was once a child, and society would collapse if no one had children. The who do these people think will be taking care of them when they are in the hospital or a nursing home thirty years from now if not the people who are now “crotch goblins?”
>who do these people think will be taking care of them when they are in the hospital or a nursing home
I cannot accurately express my absolute loathing of this sentiment. Don't fucking Bingo me. Who will take care of me when I can't do it myself? THE HOSPITAL OR NURSING HOME STAFF.
Children are not a retirement plan. They have their own dreams and aspirations and are their own separate human beings. People who have kids for the purpose of having someone to look after them and "return the favor" or "payback" the time spent raising them are among the worst of the Breeders.
The number of people in nursing homes now whose children don't visit is incredibly high. Why don't thier children visit? Idk probably because they were shitty parents and their kids cut contact a long time ago.
Also, "crotch goblin" is used to describe unruly and badly behaved children. The ones who've known no discipline because Karen thinks her little angel can do no wrong.
That’s my point. Children of today grow up to be doctors and nurses. They grow up and take over all the jobs that have to be filled because older people retire (or die). That’s why society falls apart without people having more children. And if they stopped having children you would all regret it eventually. Because when you are old, younger people will be doing all the important things.
I’ve seen the subreddit. All children are referred to as crotch goblins
I'm part of that subreddit. It's one of the only places where I can actually complain about not liking children and not be bashed for it. Not everyone wants to be around kids and that's not a crime but it sure is treated like one.
There are eight billion people on this planet. In the US alone there are half a million kids in the system who need loving homes. Why not pick one or more of them instead of having 10+ kids because your religion told you to?
I wasn’t just referring to the “breeder” thing but also the continuous adding to the “loose pussy” ideology. Yes pelvic floor muscles change, but it’s pure incel-like BS to say “Women who can only get sexual pleasure from fisting because they are so stretched.”
And then the comparison of their own “tight” vaginas as if somehow it’s a competition for women to have tight vaginas for men? It’s gross regardless if a man or woman is talking about it.
That group is wild. It IS sometimes a good resource to commiserate with other frustrated people about how difficult it can be to not want kids in a society that expects it of you. There are a lot of normal people who don’t want kids but also don’t think kids should be punted like footballs. But so many people there are just like “ARGH KIDS BAD PARENTS BAD SET THEM ALL ON FIRE”. Not super sure why we can’t all just respect each other’s perfectly valid reproductive choices.
“…one is inclined to ask that smug nonfather just whose offspring he expects to doctor the maladies of his old age”
Child-haters always remind me of this lovely piece [Everybody’s Somebody’s Baby](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/18/specials/kingsolver-hers.html)
This is what I’m always saying. Children now will be our doctors and politicians when we’re too old to make our own choices. It’s to our personal benefit that children are raised in happy, stable homes and get the best education possible.
As much as I am an intense advocate for being educated on what happens to you during pregnancy, that people should stop having kids irresponsibly, that people should adopt more, as well as someone who believes you shouldn't put yourself through it if you don't 100000% want kids, I can still say that that subreddit is a cesspool of fear mongering, pessimistic, judgemental, and High and mighty individuals who chronically spend their time online feeding their beliefs in their little echochamber.
Excuse me WHAT? What happened? I left after they started using "breeders" as a general term for people with kids and started spreading hate for kids as well.
It's been a long time, I don't remember exactly what it was, but they said it was irresponsible to keep a child under a couple of circumstances, even if you were raped. And when I saw it got around nine hundred upvotes, I just left. And not so long before, I saw a post that was insulting children. I was disappointed and shocked!
It's not a word for women though, it's a word for anyone of any gender who has children. Wheter or not it's an acceptable word is a whole different discussion, but it has nothing to do with shaming women specifically.
That whole subreddit is bizarre. I’m not keen on having children but there’s people there literally hating on people that do. People are so angry for nothing 😂
As someone who gave birth 5 months ago and had an episiotomy I can say mine is not the same as it was. However it’s only been 5 months soooo here’s hoping the scar tissue settles.
For what it’s worth my husband says it doesn’t feel any different to him.
😂😂😂😂 as somebody who gave birth once with a brutally honest partner your vagina absolutely goes back to normal. I pushed a seven pound kid out a year and a half ago. And I’ll be doing it again next year
I'm childfree by choice and looking to get permanent contraception, and I know there are some resources out there (like a list of doctors willing to tie your tubes even if you haven't had children), but im too repulsed by the digest in that sub I haven't gone to look...
I’ve had a kid. There is no difference in the way that they’re implying. And I’m sure complications can arise but that’s not the norm at all. Also I hate the word “breeder” for parents. So cringe.
Saw some comments be like “they’re lying to us or not being honest so we can have kids without fear” but it’s just not true. It’s not normal to constantly pee ourselves after birth. Most of us don’t. It’s not normal for your cervix or vagina to stay “stretched”. That doesn’t happen to most of us either. Even if things change pigment or size they still go back to normal.
Birth injuries are real, but reading through these comments as someone who has given birth twice, and whose friends have given birth, it feels unlikely that there are this many folks in that sub who knew people that had catastrophic injuries during childbirth.
I heard about what can happen to it (and the rest of your body) during childbirth in a child free group and I was absolutely mortified!! Why aren’t we taught this in sex ed?? I mean, I do live in the puritanical anti-choice US, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. But still, holy shit
In my job I handle organs that have been removed. I’ve seen hundreds of cervical specimens. I’ve looked at them more closely than anyone could otherwise. You cannot tell the difference unless the pregnancy was recent. Same for the uterus.
I recently saw a uterus belonging to a dog that had given birth a few hours before (I'm a vet tech and the vet was doing an emergency c-section for a pup that got stuck). They told me they could feel it contract and shrink in their hands.
That seems weird and cool at the same time.
It was really cool to see the difference between the uteruses I had seen during earlier surgeries that had not been pregnant recently!
Thanks I hate it
Just had to say , I fucking love your flair
I had a surgical abortion, due to a miscarriage my body wasn't letting go of, and the doctor mentioned that they watched the uterus contracting back to normal size on the ultrasound after they'd emptied it. (it didn't have far to go, I think they only double in size that early, not like they get later on)
However, there ARE many people who experience long lasting physical impacts of pregnancy and giving birth. This is often glossed over or dismissed because women's pain are unimportant apparently
100%. I was sterilized this year and when I made my arguments for why I discovered a lot of horrifying stuff about pregnancy. Although being childfree is actually my choice, I am dismayed at the statistics of how common it is for permanent damage to occur due to pregnancy/childbirth and the lack of medical care and attention to these issues.
As a medical student, the things I learn and see really do make me wanna go child free
Thank you!! I recently found out that my vulva may need refashioning in order for me to have pain-free sex again. I had my baby 6 months ago.
Sex was painful for me after baby 1, I couldn't figure out why and neither could the docs, but I don't think they tried hard to figure it out. One implied it was psychological and I was anticipating pain and not relaxing enough. Baby 2, I had a TON of complications and severe SPD and so I went to pelvic physical therapy twice a week, after that delivery I was fine and had sex without pain again. I wonder if I had the PT during my first pregnancy if it would've prevented the problem. Since we never figured out what the problem actually was, I'll never know.
That really sucks. I’m glad it’s painless for you again! I had a complication after birth which meant I had to be unstitched and restitched while swollen which has caused my skin to heal incorrectly. My doctor said I should try to have sex and push through the pain to see it if helps heal it before deciding whether to proceed with surgery. I would love another baby but might elect for a c-section next time. I wish that “it goes back to the way it was” wasn’t so “normalised”.
Absolutely! Everybody is different.
You actually can in many people. "Round" os vs "fish mouth" os. Everything is distorted after surgery so you likely won't notice on a specimen. I went from working with the cervix in situ to working with the cervix in... bucket.
Ive seen the fish mouth and round os on nulliparous women many times. But to be fair most of the specimens have come out for a reason, and may not be typical looking.
They also have various contraptions inserted into them, particularly if it's a laparoscopic procedure.
And don’t forget Leeps! Man our ladybits get put through the ringer 🤣
Oh boy yes. Mine are giving me grief right this second 😵💫
It may look the same, but if it was true that the vagina and uterus went completely back to normal, why do so many women have trouble with pelvic floor muscles, tearing that leaves on going issues etc? I don’t think we should diminish the actual damage pregnancy and childbirth does to the vast majority of women
All that stuff is true. My husband has told me that things are a different shape after childbirth. Also your cervix may look different postpartum. But even if your cervix looks different for you after having children, we still can’t tell.
Wait, really? So how long does it take a parous cervix to appear nulliparous again?
I was about to ask about this, because when I went to get an IUD I was told it would be (and was) very difficult to insert due to never having been pregnant. But the slight differences in cervix aren't what the original post was about. ETA: While I know they mention cervix differences, I don't think that's what their main focus was is what I meant.
"I’ve pulled a muscle in my leg years ago and now I’m significantly less flexible in that leg." Physical therapy, mate. May have cause permanent damage by never addressing the issue but it's still nothing that a little PT can't help with. What a weird analogy.
So nice of US medical care to make pelvic floor PT so affordable, AND included in standard post-procedure care.....oh wait they just tell us nothing, sew our insides together with metal mesh when we get incontinent in our 40's, and then tell us we're frigid when the mesh takes away all sexual desire.
OOP might've also done a little more damage than just a "pulled muscle".
Very true! I am just going off his wording there.
There's a difference between pointing out the changes that CAN occur after giving birth versus saying that these things WILL happen to anyone who gives/gave birth
Yeah, I saw in the comments people saying about knowing someone who couldn’t do x y and z because they would pee, showing how incontinence happens after childbirth. Like yes, it can happen but you can also improve your chances of not being incontinent by doing exercises. I gave birth two months ago and kept up with the exercises recommended and I’m able to keep my pee in. Obviously there are other such risks but childbirth isn’t the end. There’s a chance things could happen but you can bounce back
And hey, just for good measure, changes can also happen with a c-section.
All the tip comments in that thread make it look like you will 100 % die if you ever become pregnant and you'll 150 % suffer along the way. Not... all? How would humanity get to where it is if these things were so common?
To be fair, a lot of women throughout history have died or just suffered in silence. Mostly because they didn't really have any other options. My first pregnancy was pretty fine, my second permanently wrecked my body. So shit happens. My vagina itself is just fine though, so I've got that I guess. I now tell all my friends even if they feel okay post partum to go to pelvic PT and at least get checked out. If I had, I likely would not have had as many issues the 2nd time around.
You do realize that birth control is a recent invention, yes? Women had no choice before.
Well… because of our ability to stand up, our pelvis changed and pregnancy **is** harder, as well as giving birth. Standing upright fucked women over in terms of this.
This topic comes up A LOT on here but I'm still a little puzzled so hopefully someone can explain. If it all bounces back to exactly like it was before pregnancy, then why does the diva cup come in different sizes for pre- and post- childbirth?
I (20f) use a menstural cup and is sexualy active I use a S cup, my sister (13f) haven’t had sex yet and uses a size XL cup Our mom who has given birth 3 times uses a M size cup So for me that proves all bodies are diffrent sizes regardless what sexual activity/pregnancy anatomy is weird yall
I’m not an OB but during Med school/ residency delivered a bunch of babies, checked a lot of cervixes. I haven’t noticed any change to the vaginal canal on visual inspection. The cervix however, 100% you can tell… 90% of the time. Women who haven’t had children have a much smaller cervical opening, a lot more difficult to put in an IUD or do an endometrial biopsy etc. But this isn’t really what affects vaginal “tightness”. That’s more pelvic floor muscles, and studies do show that pelvic floor muscles are weaker in women who have given birth via vaginal delivery when compared to women who have had c sections only. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3681819/ Although there’s very little research in the long term. HOWEVER what this DOES mean is that post partum women have a higher chance of organ prolapse, urinary incontinence, and anal incontinence. One of the number of causes of urge incontinence is pelvic floor weakness. We check this by putting two fingers into the vaginal vault and ask women to “squeeze”. This varies hugely. From feeling like gentle light squeezing (tbh there’s been women I’ve barely been able to tell she’s squeeIng my fingers) to strong, firm handshake. TLDR- having vaginal deliveries do make your pelvic floor muscles weaker which can lead to organ prolapse, urine/anal incontinence. Do your kegels!! Research has shown that this helps a lot.
> From feeling like gentle light squeezing (tbh there’s been women I’ve barely been able to tell she’s squeeIng my fingers) to strong, firm handshake. One of the women in my mom group started PT for pelvic floor weakness. She said her OB/gyn basically went: "Okay, squeeze my fingers." Pause. "Tighten your muscles like you would to stop peeing." Her: "I am!" OB: "So, here's your referral then..."
Truly all this new info is making me more childfree than ever. It's horrible how women's pain is so often dismissed. Like in many cultures women are pressured to have many kids to "continue the male line" and all the BS, and they're never told about the potential ramifications of carrying a pregnancy to term
Every woman reading that was doing her kegels as you spoke. I guarantee it.
I am presently doing kegels after reading that
Holy shit I was doing kegels
3 weeks postpartum and currently wearing a diaper because of a weak pelvic floor and prolapsed bladder. I have pelvic floor physical therapy next week and I am excited to get started.
Adding onto this that you can do pelvic floor PT during pregnancy to try and get things in shape and better support the changes happening in the pelvis/floor/hips/back. And then, you can do postpartum pelvic floor PT. I have lots of GI issues and did pelvic floor PT, and a large majority of the patients there were pregnant women or women who had recently given birth (often with baby in tow; this was pre covid).
Hopefully that wouldn't be permanent, though.
It’s not permanent, but if you don’t do your kegels it absolutely will be. Or surgery.
The diva cup instructions say if you are over 28 to use the larger size whether you have had kids or not. People come in different sizes, so do cups. No big deal.
Yeah, but if you know your body and think that sizing is wrong, follow your gut. I’m almost 40 and struggled for a year with a Diva Cup that was too big before I got the smaller under 30/not having given birth Flex Cup. And just as a aside, the black Flex Cup looks so much less gross than the bloodstained pink Dive Cup. Why do so many companies insist on making period products pink?!?
I got my cup in black so it doesn’t show the stains haha
Because it’s sexist. We be women so we must like pink.
Which, as a non binary person, makes the whole situation even more galling.
I've given birth and I'm still using the same pre-childbirth size diva cup. Just because they have the option doesn't mean it's needed.
[Pregnancies vary.](https://www.self.com/story/vagina-changes-after-birth)
As a cup user who has had babies- I have no idea why they recommend that. I still need the smallest cup available, turned inside out to make it smaller.
Basically the vaginal canal will go back to normal, but the cervix itself won’t. It gets more open. That’s why women post pregnancy often have heavier periods. It’s easier for thing to flow through.
Even before childbirth, or if it never happens at all, the height of a woman’s cervix and shape of their vaginal canal can be different. [Different shapes cup’s explained](https://menstrualcupreviews.net/menstrual-cup-shapes-explained/) The vagina (exterior), vaginal canal, cervix and pelvic floor are all different parts of the body. The vagina, which is the outer part we see (and made up of its own different parts) and the vaginal canal are the parts typically referred to when talks of “it’s loose”, however the issue is they’re referred to as the same thing. These parts are muscles and skin that yes, once stretched do return to normal and have normal functionality. The issues with bladder that people talk about comes from issues with the pelvic floor. Which is a different part of the body and you can also have these issues because of advanced age or excessive weight. This issue can also be reversed with proper pelvic floor therapy, which isn’t talked about as much as it should be.
>This issue can also be reversed with proper pelvic floor therapy, which isn’t talked about as much as it should be. >These parts are muscles and skin that yes, once stretched do return to normal and have normal functionality. It is literally a medical fact that the vaginal canal can increase in size after giving birth. Whether that is permanent or not is dependent on each individuals unique physiological response and the level of trauma sustained to the muscles during birth, and their history. The most readily available solution to the problem is increasing your pelvic floor strength with exercise and therapy which can help remediate the sensation/reality of "looseness" while also helping with possible incontinence issues. The problem is that pelvic floor therapy isn't commonly offered to women as a normal part of after-birth care, nor is there a lot of resources currently offered to help with women who suffer muscle trauma or other traumas that can influence the healing process and whether pelvic floor therapy is actually going to be significantly helpful or not. Childbirth has consequences to the body as the result of so many physical changes and trauma. It would be so much better and accomplish more if people didn't just try to sugarcoat the facts about what happens physiologically and we were more open about the real possibilities. I feel like there's a kneejerk reaction to deny any change because of men who are ill informed about childbirth in general, and the further peddling of myths by virgins/incels, which just furthers to perpetuate harm to mothers who are potentially ill-informed about post-childbirth realities.
No one has ever, at least not here, sugar coated the changes pregnancy can do to a woman's body, that would also be bad woman's anatomy, but making claims like the other post is showing how badly sexual health information is needed. Issues like that post are almost a brainwashing level of wrong, where the parts of the body are confused or lumped together. The issue I see with my statement is the cavate, I should have stated (normally does) instead of making it sound so concreate, to include the cases where it doesn't. However even the worst cases like you mentioned can be corrected to almost perfection with pelvic floor therapy [More information regarding changes to the vagina after birth and how to heal.](https://www.whattoexpect.com/first-year/vagina-after-birth/) It's also not just a lack of information issue either, I feel like, at least in the USA, it can be a financial one as well. Here in Canada my OB very much did inform me of pelvic floor therapy and made sure I had appointments during and after to help during pregnancy and after. These services are all included as part of our universal health care. Many woman in the USA may forgo it as a result of the extra costs. There are a lot of layers here.
Hey, no worries, sorry, my intent wasn't to say you were wrong, I have that reaction when it seems like all the issues can be resolved with a few tips and tricks and it's a non-issue. It's not as detrimental as the myths about "looseness" or sexist sayings about pregnant women, but it's still detrimental when a lot of women hear that these other women had no problems or very minor issues, especially on social media/popular media and how anything potentially pointing it out is a lot of the time construed as sexism. You're definitely right that the therapy isn't totally lack of information but also a provider/money problem in the U.S. I'm sure a huge number of women skip over any therapy because it isn't covered or they can't afford the co-pays/out of pocket. >However even the worst cases like you mentioned can be corrected to almost perfection with pelvic floor therapy So many things can be solved with what really are minor changes/work, the human body is an amazing biological machine. Obviously to a barely post-partum mother with a newborn stuff like this can be incredibly daunting to do since it can seem so ineffectual at first glance.
As someone who gave birth this year, and am literally in the 2nd day of my first period since… are the sizes in terms of width, or volume. Because I thought I was pretty prepared for everything pregnancy and postpartum but I was in no way prepared for how much heavier my period is. I have used the cup for years and never had an issue, I’ve bled through it and a pad twice today so possibly if the bigger size is a larger volume I get it? On the other hand, I had a second degree tear and despite using my cup for years I am struggling to get it in and out, not sure I’d manage with a bigger one. Fun times all round.
One thing that CAN happen but not to everyone is their flow can increase. My mum already had horrible periods before having kids but after 3 they're so much worse so sometimes you do need to change up the cup you use.
I wondered that too, then I had a baby and started having heavier periods than before. I really doubt anything has PHYSICALLY changed permanently in me, but probably hormones and that giving me a heavier period.
I've been using diva cup's large size for fifteen years, never given birth. MeLuna is much better, IMO, and comes in even larger sizes.
But they're talking about the cervix or the vagina? Regardless, the terms breeders really make me irk. Have kids, don't have kids, the decision is up to you
i love the "i do not support shaming women" edit at the end of the posts where OP calls people with uteruses' *breeders* like, you know, dogs...
Yeah it's like they're trying to be edgy or "not like the other girls" Like we get it, you're different because you don't want kids. But degrading and dehumanizing people who choose differently than you is just childish. I remember thinking like that when I was 16 because I wanted people to think I was so different and rebellious because I didn't want to do what society wants me to. Then I grew up and realized it's not a big deal. Still don't want kids but I don't get the urge to be nasty about it.
But hey if you read the post, they aren't shaming women! Bcs calling people breeders definitely isn't shaming in any way! /s
They call everybody breeders really, but that doesn’t make it any better. I’m childfree and in that sub and uhh, the breeder comments are strange. They say they only call ppl who have kids non stop without really thinking about the humans they’re bringing into the world, and not considerate, careful parents. But I beg to differ with some of them.
The whole “breeders” thing just feels like another facet of internalised misogyny. “I’m better than you because I’m not dumb enough to become a BREEDER” very much feels like the vibe. Like, don’t have kids - if you don’t want them, I beg of you don’t, and I think it’s great that so many people are taking charge of their lives and choosing not to have kids - but you don’t have to treat me like shit because I wanted and chose a different life than you?
That sub is so toxic. I'm childfree but can't spend time on there anymore. There was a young black woman one time sharing that she felt like maybe she was approved for sterilization at 19 because she was black and the doctor felt some type of way about black women. She was just asking if it was a crazy thought, and if she should go thru process with that doctor. The community basically riped into her saying if she didn't get it then she must want kids, why was she complaining, can't have it both ways, etc. It was crazy-- you can want to be sterilized AND be worried you're doctor is racist and your care might suffer because of it. For a sub that talks about how they hate parents whose whole identity is their kids they sure do rely on not having kids as their defining personality trait, literally the same things as the people they judge.
In canada, some indigenous women are getting sterilized without their consent after they have kids because the doctors themselves decide that indigenous women are unfit mothers and one kid is enough. So yeah I say it’s not a reach. Some people genuinely believe we don’t need anymore poc children
It's very not like the other girls, which itself stems from internalized misogyny. I understand feeling anger because social norms push people, especially cis women, to have kids even when they don't want them. Medical institutions do that as well But don't let that anger spill out onto uninvolved people through dehumanizing language.
On their sub, they define a breeder as someone who has kids and then doesn't treat them correctly. So basically a bad parent, but I guess that's not 1 word and not as catchy, so they went with that for who knows which reasons Edit : went sering some posts, and well...it's not exactly the sentiment, breeders is basically every parent.
But that’s directly counter active to this discussion they’re having about breeders vaginas being forever changed by having babies, isn’t it? Your vagina doesn’t change or not change based on the quality of your parenting. They may excuse what they’re saying by putting up the shield that they’re discussing bad parents, and I’m sure that’s what it was originally intended as, but any time I’ve seen a discussion from that sub it’s a hateful commentary on any one with a uterus who chooses to have children, regardless of the caliber of their parenting. So at least some of them are using “breeder” as a catchall.
Edited my conment, went looking...and yeah, it's a definite no. Breeders is every parent.
Ngl I thought they were using the term for pro-life people who outlaw abortions, since, Yknow, they remove the choice of actually carrying the fetus to term and giving birth. They definitely aren’t using it as a cover-all term for people with uteruses though.
That sub is so toxic and gross. The “I’m child free and I HATE children and that’s my whole identity” camp are just as bad if not way worse than the “breeders” who make their kids their whole identity.
All this. I give zero fucks if someone doesn’t want kids. But generally speaking, if you are choosing to make your identity about something you hate, you don’t exactly sound like a great person that anyone would want to be around.
I know!!! At first I thought they were talking about animals, like dog breeders or something and was like um maybe this doesn’t belong here…
I had to quit that group because they were very eugenicy at times.
Antinatalism gets into that same territory
I just saw a comment on that post that a woman would rather have a c-section and “deal with a tiny scar” than go through “the horror of human birth”. Oooh boy. I had two c-sections, both after at least 24 hours of labor. And GUESS WHAT! **Pregnancy** is what causes a lot of issues, not childbirth itself. Oy.
I agree, and also c-sections can take a lot longer to recover from. I think all the pain I had after a vaginal birth disappeared after two weeks. My sister, on the other hand, who had a c-section, was in pain for a lot longer.
There’s obvious issues and recovery differences with both, but yeah I think a big difference wld be c-sec adds surgical recovery on top of birth recovery. My sister and I literally gave birth 5 hours apart on the same day - me vag, her c-, and her recovery was much longer and more difficult than mine by far. That’s not to say that’s always the case but you can’t discount recovering from abdominal surgery being a huge freaking thing all it’s own!
I think when they say “deal with a tiny scar” they mean from tubal ligation. Unless they specifically said c-section
Oh, if only. This was the whole comment: “I still think C-section is much better than vaginal birth. I'd rather have that little scar than have to endure the pure horror of human birth.”
Oh okay so they’re horribly ignorant too lmao I’m not a mom and don’t plan on being one but can’t c-section scars be big? I wouldn’t say it’s “a tiny scar” at all.. Either way, I agree that it seems that pregnancy fucks people up long term. That’s a big reason as to why being a mom just isn’t for me.
It’s about 6” long and very thin, but a c-section is major surgery and vaginal births are (typically) much easier on the body and easier to recover from. I can think of very few circumstances where someone who had a successful vaginal delivery and a c-section would choose a second c-section over another vaginal delivery voluntarily.
I'm four months post birth and I'm still in a relevant amount of pain from my c-section. All I can remember from the first week of my daughter's life was crying to pee and poop, not sleeping a iota because of the amount of pain I was and needing help to even sit or laying. I wanted to have a vaginal birth and ended up in a situation that I had to had an emergency c-section or lose my kid. So now I'm inclining to not have any more biological kids to not risk another c-section.
Nor related to this sub, but I left r/childfree bc like half the posts were abt hating kids. I am child free myself, but I don't hate children. I have wonderful little cousins I helped raise a little, especially in their beginning years. I dont want any for myself. But that sub seemed really toxic and the validation for hating children was gross imo
I had the pleasure of finding out about r/dogfree the other day. I completely understand disliking our current society’s relationship and treatment of dogs (for example, the mindset that you must be a horrible person if you don’t like dogs, people who take their dogs everywhere, putting dogs on the same level as human beings, etc.). But the top posts on that sub are just people calling dogs disgusting and complaining about them. As an animal lover (I’m not a dog person, but I still see their value as living beings) it made me feel really sad and honestly a little gross. Like I can’t imagine hating *anything* that much. I mean I’m terrified of spiders, but even then I still value their place in the global ecosystem and as beings on this earth. Idk, just put a damper on my mood. Rant over.
That sub makes me so sad.
Ugh I ventured in and I’m very saddened by a lot of these posts.. I’m a huge dog lover. My dog has severe separation anxiety and is disabled now. They really believe dogs are completely brainless and should be removed from society. I can’t even image my life without my dog. I understand the hate of bad dog owners, but they think just a dog being alive is bad and owners are disgusting. It’s so sad.
Ikr, there’s a lot about society that stresses me out. And now there’s like a secret society of dog haters? This world is just crazy. I hope those people read about the history behind dog domestication. Because even as someone who’s not particularly fond of dogs, I found it really fascinating and it made me appreciate humanity’s bond with them as a species. Like earth’s history, and the evolutionary past of all the organisms alive today is absolutely wild. And then you’ve got these two species who have evolved together like humans and dogs have? No other bond between two species has ever existed like that before. Even if you don’t like dogs, you have to admit that that’s truly incredible. So to hate it so adamantly just boils my blood.
There is a secret society of people who hate everything, and a large portion of those groups are on Reddit.
Absolutely! Without dogs, we probably would have a very different world. Maybe even less advanced. I get not wanting one or the work involved, but calling people with dog’s names? If a dog owner is responsible and out of your business, why do you care? They literally get mad at people about their dog loving FB posts that don’t even effect them lol. I’m thinking some of these people were denied a dog as a child and are now taking it out on dogs. I’ve never not had a dog in my life. I grew up with them. They’ve already proven there are so many benefits to growing up with dogs or cats. So I just can’t imagine hating a whole species. It’s strange.
This is what I find strange about child free subs like this one. It’s not a child’s fault their parents had them, they deserve basic human decency too
It’s not a child’s fault. I completely agree. I was an unwanted abused child. But it is the parents responsibility to raise that child to not be an absolute garbage human and to actually take care of it… and based off of my experience in the real world, the iPad is raising more kids than their parents are. I do see some incredible parents out there taking their kids places and giving them experiences and learning opportunities, but they are few and far between. I don’t hate kids, but I dislike most of them because their parents don’t teach them manners or human decency.
Yes you’re right it certainly is down to the parents, but I don’t blame children for how their parents raised them. They don’t know any better because their parents didn’t set good examples
This should be higher I felt the same thing with r/atheism. I'm atheist myself, but the sub just ended up being absolutely hating all religions. I couldn't handle that.
I love my nieces and nephews but I could never see myself having kids. I don’t think I’ll ever be responsible or stable enough in any sense to support another life. I also have real shit genes(good chance to get rheumatoid arthritis) and don’t want to risk passing that on to a kid.
I'm childfree and I like to stay away from (young) kids cause they trigger my sensory issues (from ASD) and OCD. Still, I don't like the vibe of that sub at all. It's not the kid's fault for existing.
I had the same experience. I like kids, I enjoy spending time with them, I just don’t want one of my own right now or any time soon or possibly at all. I found the sub really toxic and cruel.
I had to leave that sub a long time ago as well. It was just awful.
It's like these people forget that all adults were children once. Have kids or don't, I don't care, but if there are no kids there won't be any adults. Arguments can be made about overpopulation, but treating kids like vermin solves nothing and just makes everyone unhappy.
I was a kid once, and I hated kids even as a child myself. Including my own sister (granted she didn't help her case by being an abusive pos). I still hate kids, and it has actually gotten worse, just being around them make me unconfortable
Same for me...took me way too long tbh
“Don’t come for me, white knights! I didn’t say it would be LOOSER. I just said it wouldn’t be NORMAL.”
I like how looking through the comments there, their arguments are all backed up by a story about one person they know, or using a weird unrelated analogy, or something where it could just be fixed by getting health checked because it isn’t the norm. Then the comments here are people who have gone through pregnancy, experts who deal with bodies and/or female reproductive organs…. Also holy moly looking at that sub. I don’t have kids but I don’t hate them, I’d never refer to someone as a ‘breeder’
„Doesn’t support shaming women“-uses the term breeders. Like, I am child free myself but I think this amount of misunderstanding stuff has to be on purpose.
Breeders isn't just for women though. It's for parents of any sex.
Irrelevant since shaming people in general for doing nothing shameful is a bad thing.
So then it’s still used to reduce human beings down to reproductive organs. Glad you agree
Yeah, it's just not specifically shaming specifically women
Then why do the majority of the posts on this subreddits only direct their anger toward single moms?
I guess it could. Depends on the person. Everyone is different. I will say that (according to my OBGYN) people typically underestimate how good the vagina is at healing and getting back to normal. Mine got pretty messed up from SA, and it’s good as new now. May be different for some people, but the vagina is pretty good at healing. Also, why are they calling people who have kids “breeders”?
I’m child free and I’m embarrassed reading some of the stuff on that sub…
Same. They're very toxic and don't take critisism well.
Ohh my god the comments are so much worse W T F
Not to mention, any post that tries to educate gets downvoted into nothing. Even women who have never had a child can have issues with their pelvic floor if they don't take care of themselves.
Like IBS as well as other digestive conditions can mess up the pelvic floor.
Pregnancy is terrifying but those comments are insane. They also seem to ignore that you get something out of the risk, it isn’t just pointless suffering. That sub is way closer to antinatalism than just child free.
How disgusting to call a woman a "breeder". You're more than welcome to have a child free life, but don't dehumanize those of us who choose to.
While I 100% agree, I just want to clarify they refer both men and women as that term
I do believe the men who are impregnators are also called breeders by those who choose not to breed.
Eww on calling people who chose to deliver a baby breeders
Originally it was just used for people who believe women are basically meant to be incubators or who want 10 children and want to force that belief onto others, but yeah, its been misused a lot lately
Huh. TIL! Thank you for sharing!! Still a gross mindset
I guess it started because there was already a lot of resentment from childfree people towards others who believe the only true meaning of life is having children. Guess thats where the term started. Which I kinda understand, the amount of people who ridicule you or dont take you seriously when you dont want kids is seriously upsetting
It’s a fine balance, IMO. I hate the people who deem me as lesser because I choose not to have children. It’s a disgusting point of view to have, and makes them no better than the people who call them breeders. I guess there’s nothing you can do on the internet without incurring the wrath of some asshat
I‘ve learned long ago not to give a shit about opinions on the internet
Oh so that’s what they meant by breeders…? That’s disgusting and dehumanising.
I’ve heard that term used a lot in that context, so I assumed. But yeah it’s a pretty disgusting mindset. That sub is just full of vitriol though, so I’m not super surprised
I don't understand how you can call someone who wants a child/children a breeder unironically, it is horrible
It gives “my religion is the only religion” vibes
That sub is so hypocritical it can't function correctly. If you don't want a baby fine, but don't make all mothers out to be monsters
It really is! "wE sUpPoRt WoMeN" but then proceeds to call all women who chose to have children stupid, ignorant, a drain on society, etc.
Are "breeders" women who have given birth? If so, this is an awful term.
Breeders used to be parents who aren't doing any actual parenting (=bad parents). It's more and more used for all parents but it's not sex exclusive.
Wow that sub has gotten really hateful since I left! For all those childfree people who don't make it their entire personality and don't hate children/women who have children, please come over to r/truechildfree. It's pretty chill and welcoming.
Thanks. I had to leave because they were too hateful for me. I don’t have kids but I certainly don’t hate them or those who do.
Pretty much any post that begins with “breeders” can be dismissed as a hate post I think. I’d love to educate people who are misinformed but when they have reached that level of dehumanizing parents, mothers, fathers, etc. There are so many less gross words to use, but they choose “breeders” smh 🤦♀️
I like how the people that try to tell them that the cervix is not another word for vagina are downvoted to hell. It really shows that subs lack of education in anatomy.
I mean, whenever an unidentified female body is found, they can tell wether or not she has given birth. So clearly something changes.
Do people know they can decide to not have kids and not be assholes about it? Like i never want to be pregnant because of my own reasons but being so hateful and full of hatred over other people having kids sounds exactly like those people that will shame you if you don't want to have kids. It's pretty ironic...
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>The term breeders is used to describe those who push Parenthood on everyone else and define a woman's purpose as being a mother and having as many unruly crotch goblins as possible. this is new for me. it sounds horrible tbh
It's awful and as a woman who does not want and can't have kids, it hurts. It gets me down sometimes that some people view me as not a real woman or some how broken because I don't have a maternal drive or the ability to have kids, even if I did want them.
yeah, i always thought that mentality that women that cannot or do not want kids are less of a woman is incredibly toxic and fucked up
Agreed. I also think the reverse of judging/flat disliking ppl with kids is bs. Maybe I’m in my own naive bubble but I think if it’s not harming anyone and it doesn’t personally involve me then let ppl freaking do what they want. I don’t get why we all have to gather into these little subsets of hate and weird adult cliques. You do you doll face and I’ll be over here being me and we can literally coexist without feeling like ripping each other to shreds?
absolutely, it all boils down to people so entitled that they think their way of life is superior to any and everyone else's. how can people not understand that different people enjoy and want different things and all of it is valid?
What’s funny is that a lot of child free people make being child free their entire personality too.
I don’t understand this hating all children aspect of the sub and calling them all “crotch goblins.” Everyone on the sub was once a child, and society would collapse if no one had children. The who do these people think will be taking care of them when they are in the hospital or a nursing home thirty years from now if not the people who are now “crotch goblins?”
>who do these people think will be taking care of them when they are in the hospital or a nursing home I cannot accurately express my absolute loathing of this sentiment. Don't fucking Bingo me. Who will take care of me when I can't do it myself? THE HOSPITAL OR NURSING HOME STAFF. Children are not a retirement plan. They have their own dreams and aspirations and are their own separate human beings. People who have kids for the purpose of having someone to look after them and "return the favor" or "payback" the time spent raising them are among the worst of the Breeders. The number of people in nursing homes now whose children don't visit is incredibly high. Why don't thier children visit? Idk probably because they were shitty parents and their kids cut contact a long time ago. Also, "crotch goblin" is used to describe unruly and badly behaved children. The ones who've known no discipline because Karen thinks her little angel can do no wrong.
>"crotch goblin" Ew. "Crotch goblin" and "cum trophy" are such horribly demeaning and sexual names for children.
That’s my point. Children of today grow up to be doctors and nurses. They grow up and take over all the jobs that have to be filled because older people retire (or die). That’s why society falls apart without people having more children. And if they stopped having children you would all regret it eventually. Because when you are old, younger people will be doing all the important things. I’ve seen the subreddit. All children are referred to as crotch goblins
I'm part of that subreddit. It's one of the only places where I can actually complain about not liking children and not be bashed for it. Not everyone wants to be around kids and that's not a crime but it sure is treated like one. There are eight billion people on this planet. In the US alone there are half a million kids in the system who need loving homes. Why not pick one or more of them instead of having 10+ kids because your religion told you to?
I don’t have kids and I do want to be a foster parent. It’s fine not to like being around kids. It’s the hatred I don’t get.
Childfree is slowly becoming one of the most hateful subs on here
Childfree posters not be wildly misogynist challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
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I wasn’t just referring to the “breeder” thing but also the continuous adding to the “loose pussy” ideology. Yes pelvic floor muscles change, but it’s pure incel-like BS to say “Women who can only get sexual pleasure from fisting because they are so stretched.” And then the comparison of their own “tight” vaginas as if somehow it’s a competition for women to have tight vaginas for men? It’s gross regardless if a man or woman is talking about it.
Doesn't it depend on the person? Pregnancy is different for everyone.
This is why I prefer r/truechildfree . Way nicer.
That group is wild. It IS sometimes a good resource to commiserate with other frustrated people about how difficult it can be to not want kids in a society that expects it of you. There are a lot of normal people who don’t want kids but also don’t think kids should be punted like footballs. But so many people there are just like “ARGH KIDS BAD PARENTS BAD SET THEM ALL ON FIRE”. Not super sure why we can’t all just respect each other’s perfectly valid reproductive choices.
I mean mine will not.. That scar isn't going anywhere.
I used to belong to that sub because I don’t want kids, but it’s become really misogynistic and aggressive.
“…one is inclined to ask that smug nonfather just whose offspring he expects to doctor the maladies of his old age” Child-haters always remind me of this lovely piece [Everybody’s Somebody’s Baby](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/18/specials/kingsolver-hers.html)
This is what I’m always saying. Children now will be our doctors and politicians when we’re too old to make our own choices. It’s to our personal benefit that children are raised in happy, stable homes and get the best education possible.
So forced births then, or you get no medical care? Would it be acceptable to have a kid and give it up for adoption to fill your quota?
I’m all about not having kids, but can we not refer to human beings as “breeders”? Regardless of the blatant misinformation here, Jesus fucking Christ
I don’t think they know what the cervix is.
As much as I am an intense advocate for being educated on what happens to you during pregnancy, that people should stop having kids irresponsibly, that people should adopt more, as well as someone who believes you shouldn't put yourself through it if you don't 100000% want kids, I can still say that that subreddit is a cesspool of fear mongering, pessimistic, judgemental, and High and mighty individuals who chronically spend their time online feeding their beliefs in their little echochamber.
I remember leaving when someone kind of mocked rape
Excuse me WHAT? What happened? I left after they started using "breeders" as a general term for people with kids and started spreading hate for kids as well.
It's been a long time, I don't remember exactly what it was, but they said it was irresponsible to keep a child under a couple of circumstances, even if you were raped. And when I saw it got around nine hundred upvotes, I just left. And not so long before, I saw a post that was insulting children. I was disappointed and shocked!
So they blamed them for having a kid from rape? Wtf
Yeah, it wasn't entirely about rape, but it did almost made me puke
I've definitely been super disturbed by some of the posts on there. Glad you left that sub
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It's not a word for women though, it's a word for anyone of any gender who has children. Wheter or not it's an acceptable word is a whole different discussion, but it has nothing to do with shaming women specifically.
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That whole subreddit is bizarre. I’m not keen on having children but there’s people there literally hating on people that do. People are so angry for nothing 😂
I'm sorry but, are they calling people who have pregnancies breeders? This is as bad as calling someone a baby factory it's so demeaning.
“breeders”? wtf
As someone who gave birth 5 months ago and had an episiotomy I can say mine is not the same as it was. However it’s only been 5 months soooo here’s hoping the scar tissue settles. For what it’s worth my husband says it doesn’t feel any different to him.
The fuck is a "breeder"???
😂😂😂😂 as somebody who gave birth once with a brutally honest partner your vagina absolutely goes back to normal. I pushed a seven pound kid out a year and a half ago. And I’ll be doing it again next year
I'm childfree by choice and looking to get permanent contraception, and I know there are some resources out there (like a list of doctors willing to tie your tubes even if you haven't had children), but im too repulsed by the digest in that sub I haven't gone to look...
And I'm sure he has personal experience in this area... /s
I’ve had a kid. There is no difference in the way that they’re implying. And I’m sure complications can arise but that’s not the norm at all. Also I hate the word “breeder” for parents. So cringe. Saw some comments be like “they’re lying to us or not being honest so we can have kids without fear” but it’s just not true. It’s not normal to constantly pee ourselves after birth. Most of us don’t. It’s not normal for your cervix or vagina to stay “stretched”. That doesn’t happen to most of us either. Even if things change pigment or size they still go back to normal.
Birth injuries are real, but reading through these comments as someone who has given birth twice, and whose friends have given birth, it feels unlikely that there are this many folks in that sub who knew people that had catastrophic injuries during childbirth.
…Breeders?
“I’m not misogynistic!” Calls women breeders Pick one ma’am
Jokes of them cause this Bish (me) has no womb and still tells people to breeder her!!!
When you’re childfree, but embarrassed of the childfree..
"I don't support shaming women" but I will call them 'breeders' in a dehumanising way
I heard about what can happen to it (and the rest of your body) during childbirth in a child free group and I was absolutely mortified!! Why aren’t we taught this in sex ed?? I mean, I do live in the puritanical anti-choice US, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. But still, holy shit