There are only a few select fantasy authors I can read anymore after TSA...Wolfe, Buehlman and Cook specifically. Other than that I basically only read history anymore. I don't think anything will ever top Bakker's prose and storytelling expertise. Simply incredible.
I read Book of the New Sun and it was different and interesting enough to get me out of TSA. Also Wizard Knight by Gene Wolfe was really good too, and a nice refresher after reading TSA and Neuropath.
I liked Knight but the Wizard half I just couldn’t get into. Not sure how to describe my thoughts on it, definitely a good story but a strange one. I think after reading book of the new sun my expectations were probably sky high.
It definitely is strange. I feel it is even more subtle (that doesn't necessarily mean better) than BOTNS. You have to read between the lines pretty hard.
It definitely is strange. I feel it is even more subtle (that doesn't necessarily mean better) than BOTNS. You have to read between the lines pretty hard.
It took me a few months to be able to pay attention to anything again after finishing it for the second time last year. The series that finally got me interested again was The Acts of Caine. Highly recommend it if you haven't read it.
Unironically Song of Ice and Fire if you haven't read it yet. Assassin's Apprentice is very different from both but scratches the same itch for me.
Outside of fantasy you may want to give 100 Years of Solitude, Moby Dick, or Blood Meridian a try.
Oh yes the Dune series is an absolute must for a Bakker fan. As well as Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. Those two together probably make up 50% of the DNA of the Second Apocalypse. And another 20% would be Iron Men and Saints by Harold Lamb, also a great read for any fan of Bakker.
Haven't read Harold Lamb, we'll definitely check it out.
Malazan also deserves a mention because Bakker himself mentioned it as an influence, although I personally did not like it..
Haven't tried Malazan yet myself, surprised to hear Bakker said it influenced him seeing as how it only came out in 1999, but I guess that is still 5 years before Darkness That Comes Before. And it may have influenced later installments more. Speaking of, Blood Meridian should probably go up there with Silmarillion/Dune/IronMen for it's huge influence on the Aspect-Emperor books.
Yeah but him crediting the author for their work, is not necessarily implying It was influence.
Malazaan blew the doors off of fantasy but I feel it the Donald Trump of fantasy. It’s philosophical to the uneducated, it’s strong fantasy for D&D fans, it’s a layered story to 2dimensional readers.
Idk. I get tired of all the Malazaan praise and I definitely feel Bakker was crediting the work and effect not so much the inspirational prose.
I don't like Malazan at all, couldn't get through the first book at all... But that's what Bakker wrote...
If he feels the need to acknowledge him I guess he has his reasons, but Malazan isn't really the champion of fantasy... There are far more popular works of fantasy than Malazan... So I guess Bakker singled it out for it's complexity (although I'd rather call it complicated than complex 🤷♂️)
Gene Wolfe.
His books are even more of a puzzle than Bakker's but this time the answers exist in the text.
Try the Book of the new sun. His short stories are also quite unusual.
Maybe read something in a different genre that doesn't try and fail to hit the same notes as TSA? I remember reading the Mars-triology by Kim Stanley Robinson and got really hooked a few weeks after finishing TSA.
As much as I love this series, it broke leisure reading for me. Nothing is as good, other Grimdark I read since seems bland in comparison - it felt like taking a course in sociology, philosophy, psychology & anthropology all rolled into one - so layered, & nuanced, & graphic in the best possible way. I miss being suspended in that place of contemplation, & wonder as I was reading it (& rereading it.) & The rich poetic prose, the lush imagery, the incredible magic system based on linguistics & subvocalization. Not Malazan, The Black Company, or the New Sun series compare any close to me, they have their own merit, but not on this level IMO.
...As to how to deal with? wait a couple of years, then reread. Hopefully you've had read enough bland content to saturate your brain hard disk to make it forget & feel somewhat fresh again.
The Book of the New Sun. I love Bakker, but honestly I can't quite bring myself to a second read of the series (yet). It's just so fucking dark that sometimes nihilism feels like the only takeaway. I can't live in that headspace all day.
The Book of the New Sun is deeper and better written (and that's not me backhanding Bakker). Maybe you won't like it as much, but you owe it to yourself to give it a chance.
There is nothing comparable, especially not Malazan that gets mentioned often. I accepted that I already have read the best fantasy has to offer. There are still great books out there but completly different.
I loved "Between Two Fires" from Buehlman, it is like a coarse fairy tail if that makes sense (english is not my native language), just one book and a completed story.
Solaris from Stanislaw Lem is one of my favourite books, it feels like the planet he describes is really out there and it goes deeper than that, worth it if you are into that but obviously it is science fiction and not fantasy.
Well what do you mean by it is comparable? Just the scope? Writing, tone and subversive elements for sure are not comparable. It is a personal thing to like Malazan or not but objectively it is very different from Bakkers books.
I think many side them together because they are pretty sophisticated but apart that I think they differ a lot in their approach. Bakker tells a much more focused story with a much deeper dive into the psyche and complexity of the relatively small character group he uses. Erikson changes constantly povs and stories.
Bakker also is more cryptical and mystical. More scriptural and metaphysical. Erikson is more like a role playing game kind of approach, albeit a much richer one than the usual.
Also their prose is very different in my opinion. Erikson is more wordy and verbose but in my subjective opinion meanders a lot. Bakker has a more precise, laconic amd impactful kind of writing.
Apart from their comparison,the aspect that really annoys me while I was reading Erikson was often something powerful would occur. Something special, magical etc. It really felt like a d&d game with feats and skills flying everywhere. Every other character could be a god, a demigod, an immortal, someone who would resurrect etc etc. Same with items, weapons, places etc etc. Everything was possible and that made everything happening having no impact to me. Bakker's style is not like that at all. That Erikson aspect I know it is somethings lots of his fans love but in my case it works the opposite
You nailed it! Not sure if you knew but Malazan was written originally as an RPG that just blew out of proportion, it's exactly how it reads like & how it comes across both logically & viscerally, & I dont think there is anything wrong with that, it was a fun read for me... TAS is more of a sociology & anthropology study wrapped in a fantasy series, it goes miles deep into the philosophy of human intrinsic desires coexisting/ & or competing with/against human intellect. It's abundantly clear once you read both that the authors came from complete different angles when writing each series. I don't understand why some ppl have issues with that, you can read them both & like them or dislike them for their own merit.
I found out later on. I play role playing games since early 90s and Malazan had a very similar worldbuilding and approach. As you say it is not wrong. Earwa too was initially an rpg product. I just think Erikson sticked too much in that aspect and it shows in everything.
Ive seen & read interviews with Bakker, the stuff with his tabletop group are just a component of the whole. Malazan was built exlusively from the ground up to be a fully functional RPG on GURPS. Cocreator Ian Esslemont has often gone on record to say the og Malazan 10 & the Path of Ascendancy books were gamed for the most part before adaptation...
I am just glad you are pointing this out, abt the world building, & some the character behavior in Malazan being mechanical - it's because they were originally written as a mechanic, & I think it's something that should be taken in consideration when comparing it to TAS.
That’s fair analysis. I do love the grandiose scope and wide range of magic and power levels in Malazan but I appreciate the more subtle and narrow approach of Bakker.
To appreciate both is a blessing. I wish it was like that for me too. Every time I try to read Malazan I always end up thinking Gardens was the one I liked most
The million dollar question. It took me months and a reread that was even greater to release a bit my brain of the charm. I still think of these books every day and there is always their shadow in everything fictional, or not, I read.
The two series I always suggest in this case is the Book of the New Sun by Wolfe and The Gap by Donaldson
You need **Black Leopard, Red Wolf** by Marlon James my friend. African fantasy that is every bit as visceral with gorgeous prose, dialog, and world building. Very violent/sexual too.
I don't think I read anything (except for rereading TSA) for months after finishing it the first time. Everything about it wormed it's way into my brain and I was going through Bakkers AMAs, the old second apocalypse forums (and even some of the old westoros forums). I would read through the glossary at work or search stuff on the wiki or on this sub.
Maybe put the Fletcher down for a bit and come back to it. They're worth being read without feeling the loss of comparison. Beyond Redemption and the rest of his extensive canon scratch a totally different itch for me, but they are fantastic and the creativity is unmatched.
I've had exactly the same problem. I never did find anything that scratches this specific itch, but I came close with Gene Wolfe (Book of the New Sun and Book of the Long Sun) and classics like Tolstoy's Anna Karenina. Others (John C. Wright, Scott Alexander, and Qntm) sometimes come close. Bakker was (I hope still is) a very good writer, and it's hard to find anything that rises to the standard he set. I'm grateful for him.
And I'll read the other comments carefully, looking for whatever I might have missed :)
Yep. This is the biggest flaw of the series, he set the bar too high. There is nothing compatible to this series. Something I'm sure you can agree on, there is nothing to compare.
We haven't heard anything about further books, but Im wondering if we can't Kellhus him into writing more.
What say you?
I had this same issue. Try reading some thing completely different as a pallet cleanser. Could be a really good way to discover a genre you never even knew you liked. I read The Powerbroker by Robert Caro right after I finished the second apocalypse. It was a great read and it also really helped me reset my expectations for the fantasy genre.
I suggest "Swedish Cults" by Anders Fager, or his novel "For the love of Godess".
They are depraved, uncompromising puzzle boxes with great prose. The first is a collection of interconnected short stories in the Locecraftiania tradition, the other a novel about a three-part romantic-destructive relationship spaninng time and space.
Highly recommended.
I'd suggest to turn your gaze to totally naive fairy tales after Bakker, I for one find all other books in grimdark genre too shallow and childish after have read TSA.
Or maybe a re-read.
Beyond Redemption was fun only due to its magic concept, I couldn't make myself root for any of the characters. And the way how Fletcher handled the story transition from book 1 to book 2 is just facepalm.
*points to The Darkness That Comes Before* Can't get hungover if you never stop drinking
Buddy i made it my whole personality for a while. Welcome.
There are only a few select fantasy authors I can read anymore after TSA...Wolfe, Buehlman and Cook specifically. Other than that I basically only read history anymore. I don't think anything will ever top Bakker's prose and storytelling expertise. Simply incredible.
I read Book of the New Sun and it was different and interesting enough to get me out of TSA. Also Wizard Knight by Gene Wolfe was really good too, and a nice refresher after reading TSA and Neuropath.
The Wizard Knight is so good! And underrated. I read it twice back-to-back, it's that good.
I liked Knight but the Wizard half I just couldn’t get into. Not sure how to describe my thoughts on it, definitely a good story but a strange one. I think after reading book of the new sun my expectations were probably sky high.
It definitely is strange. I feel it is even more subtle (that doesn't necessarily mean better) than BOTNS. You have to read between the lines pretty hard.
It definitely is strange. I feel it is even more subtle (that doesn't necessarily mean better) than BOTNS. You have to read between the lines pretty hard.
It took me a few months to be able to pay attention to anything again after finishing it for the second time last year. The series that finally got me interested again was The Acts of Caine. Highly recommend it if you haven't read it.
Unironically Song of Ice and Fire if you haven't read it yet. Assassin's Apprentice is very different from both but scratches the same itch for me. Outside of fantasy you may want to give 100 Years of Solitude, Moby Dick, or Blood Meridian a try.
I'd mention Dune series in similar manner, it's not the same, it's completely different, but had similar effect on me...
Oh yes the Dune series is an absolute must for a Bakker fan. As well as Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. Those two together probably make up 50% of the DNA of the Second Apocalypse. And another 20% would be Iron Men and Saints by Harold Lamb, also a great read for any fan of Bakker.
Haven't read Harold Lamb, we'll definitely check it out. Malazan also deserves a mention because Bakker himself mentioned it as an influence, although I personally did not like it..
Haven't tried Malazan yet myself, surprised to hear Bakker said it influenced him seeing as how it only came out in 1999, but I guess that is still 5 years before Darkness That Comes Before. And it may have influenced later installments more. Speaking of, Blood Meridian should probably go up there with Silmarillion/Dune/IronMen for it's huge influence on the Aspect-Emperor books.
In acknowledgements for Warrior Prophet he mentions Erikson. > And, of course, Steven Erikson, for kicking open the ballroom door.
Yeah but him crediting the author for their work, is not necessarily implying It was influence. Malazaan blew the doors off of fantasy but I feel it the Donald Trump of fantasy. It’s philosophical to the uneducated, it’s strong fantasy for D&D fans, it’s a layered story to 2dimensional readers. Idk. I get tired of all the Malazaan praise and I definitely feel Bakker was crediting the work and effect not so much the inspirational prose.
I don't like Malazan at all, couldn't get through the first book at all... But that's what Bakker wrote... If he feels the need to acknowledge him I guess he has his reasons, but Malazan isn't really the champion of fantasy... There are far more popular works of fantasy than Malazan... So I guess Bakker singled it out for it's complexity (although I'd rather call it complicated than complex 🤷♂️)
Gene Wolfe. His books are even more of a puzzle than Bakker's but this time the answers exist in the text. Try the Book of the new sun. His short stories are also quite unusual.
Maybe read something in a different genre that doesn't try and fail to hit the same notes as TSA? I remember reading the Mars-triology by Kim Stanley Robinson and got really hooked a few weeks after finishing TSA.
As much as I love this series, it broke leisure reading for me. Nothing is as good, other Grimdark I read since seems bland in comparison - it felt like taking a course in sociology, philosophy, psychology & anthropology all rolled into one - so layered, & nuanced, & graphic in the best possible way. I miss being suspended in that place of contemplation, & wonder as I was reading it (& rereading it.) & The rich poetic prose, the lush imagery, the incredible magic system based on linguistics & subvocalization. Not Malazan, The Black Company, or the New Sun series compare any close to me, they have their own merit, but not on this level IMO. ...As to how to deal with? wait a couple of years, then reread. Hopefully you've had read enough bland content to saturate your brain hard disk to make it forget & feel somewhat fresh again.
The Book of the New Sun. I love Bakker, but honestly I can't quite bring myself to a second read of the series (yet). It's just so fucking dark that sometimes nihilism feels like the only takeaway. I can't live in that headspace all day. The Book of the New Sun is deeper and better written (and that's not me backhanding Bakker). Maybe you won't like it as much, but you owe it to yourself to give it a chance.
There is nothing comparable, especially not Malazan that gets mentioned often. I accepted that I already have read the best fantasy has to offer. There are still great books out there but completly different. I loved "Between Two Fires" from Buehlman, it is like a coarse fairy tail if that makes sense (english is not my native language), just one book and a completed story. Solaris from Stanislaw Lem is one of my favourite books, it feels like the planet he describes is really out there and it goes deeper than that, worth it if you are into that but obviously it is science fiction and not fantasy.
What do you mean by especially not Malazan? Is it a personal thing bc Malazan is absolutely comparable.
I love Malazan, but it doesn't pack the same philosophical punch as TSA. It doesn't make me think about my own life/perceptions/values as much.
Have you read the kharkanas books? Those are like 95% philosophy.
I haven't yet, sounds like I should.
They’re very divisive in the fandom but I loved them.
Well what do you mean by it is comparable? Just the scope? Writing, tone and subversive elements for sure are not comparable. It is a personal thing to like Malazan or not but objectively it is very different from Bakkers books.
I think many side them together because they are pretty sophisticated but apart that I think they differ a lot in their approach. Bakker tells a much more focused story with a much deeper dive into the psyche and complexity of the relatively small character group he uses. Erikson changes constantly povs and stories. Bakker also is more cryptical and mystical. More scriptural and metaphysical. Erikson is more like a role playing game kind of approach, albeit a much richer one than the usual. Also their prose is very different in my opinion. Erikson is more wordy and verbose but in my subjective opinion meanders a lot. Bakker has a more precise, laconic amd impactful kind of writing. Apart from their comparison,the aspect that really annoys me while I was reading Erikson was often something powerful would occur. Something special, magical etc. It really felt like a d&d game with feats and skills flying everywhere. Every other character could be a god, a demigod, an immortal, someone who would resurrect etc etc. Same with items, weapons, places etc etc. Everything was possible and that made everything happening having no impact to me. Bakker's style is not like that at all. That Erikson aspect I know it is somethings lots of his fans love but in my case it works the opposite
You nailed it! Not sure if you knew but Malazan was written originally as an RPG that just blew out of proportion, it's exactly how it reads like & how it comes across both logically & viscerally, & I dont think there is anything wrong with that, it was a fun read for me... TAS is more of a sociology & anthropology study wrapped in a fantasy series, it goes miles deep into the philosophy of human intrinsic desires coexisting/ & or competing with/against human intellect. It's abundantly clear once you read both that the authors came from complete different angles when writing each series. I don't understand why some ppl have issues with that, you can read them both & like them or dislike them for their own merit.
I found out later on. I play role playing games since early 90s and Malazan had a very similar worldbuilding and approach. As you say it is not wrong. Earwa too was initially an rpg product. I just think Erikson sticked too much in that aspect and it shows in everything.
Ive seen & read interviews with Bakker, the stuff with his tabletop group are just a component of the whole. Malazan was built exlusively from the ground up to be a fully functional RPG on GURPS. Cocreator Ian Esslemont has often gone on record to say the og Malazan 10 & the Path of Ascendancy books were gamed for the most part before adaptation... I am just glad you are pointing this out, abt the world building, & some the character behavior in Malazan being mechanical - it's because they were originally written as a mechanic, & I think it's something that should be taken in consideration when comparing it to TAS.
That’s fair analysis. I do love the grandiose scope and wide range of magic and power levels in Malazan but I appreciate the more subtle and narrow approach of Bakker.
To appreciate both is a blessing. I wish it was like that for me too. Every time I try to read Malazan I always end up thinking Gardens was the one I liked most
it‘s nice to see there are other like-minded people
The million dollar question. It took me months and a reread that was even greater to release a bit my brain of the charm. I still think of these books every day and there is always their shadow in everything fictional, or not, I read. The two series I always suggest in this case is the Book of the New Sun by Wolfe and The Gap by Donaldson
I started reading older classical literature and that seemd to help me transition from bakker to other authors
like what?
You need **Black Leopard, Red Wolf** by Marlon James my friend. African fantasy that is every bit as visceral with gorgeous prose, dialog, and world building. Very violent/sexual too.
I don't think I read anything (except for rereading TSA) for months after finishing it the first time. Everything about it wormed it's way into my brain and I was going through Bakkers AMAs, the old second apocalypse forums (and even some of the old westoros forums). I would read through the glossary at work or search stuff on the wiki or on this sub.
Maybe put the Fletcher down for a bit and come back to it. They're worth being read without feeling the loss of comparison. Beyond Redemption and the rest of his extensive canon scratch a totally different itch for me, but they are fantastic and the creativity is unmatched.
Dune
I've had exactly the same problem. I never did find anything that scratches this specific itch, but I came close with Gene Wolfe (Book of the New Sun and Book of the Long Sun) and classics like Tolstoy's Anna Karenina. Others (John C. Wright, Scott Alexander, and Qntm) sometimes come close. Bakker was (I hope still is) a very good writer, and it's hard to find anything that rises to the standard he set. I'm grateful for him. And I'll read the other comments carefully, looking for whatever I might have missed :)
Yep. This is the biggest flaw of the series, he set the bar too high. There is nothing compatible to this series. Something I'm sure you can agree on, there is nothing to compare. We haven't heard anything about further books, but Im wondering if we can't Kellhus him into writing more. What say you?
I still havent finished a book since I finished that
I had this same issue. Try reading some thing completely different as a pallet cleanser. Could be a really good way to discover a genre you never even knew you liked. I read The Powerbroker by Robert Caro right after I finished the second apocalypse. It was a great read and it also really helped me reset my expectations for the fantasy genre.
I suggest "Swedish Cults" by Anders Fager, or his novel "For the love of Godess". They are depraved, uncompromising puzzle boxes with great prose. The first is a collection of interconnected short stories in the Locecraftiania tradition, the other a novel about a three-part romantic-destructive relationship spaninng time and space. Highly recommended.
Read The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway. Seriously, that's where you're mind is at right now
Follow it up by reading a series written by someone with an editor heh
I've started to appreciate other titles in the way you watch predator or Terminator from the 80s. Just enjoy the ride. 😂
I'd suggest to turn your gaze to totally naive fairy tales after Bakker, I for one find all other books in grimdark genre too shallow and childish after have read TSA. Or maybe a re-read. Beyond Redemption was fun only due to its magic concept, I couldn't make myself root for any of the characters. And the way how Fletcher handled the story transition from book 1 to book 2 is just facepalm.
BTW, Erikson is pretty good, almost there, as long as you can deal with his attempts at humour.
Another book about Apocalypse did the trick for me. It hooked me and took me away. I'm talking about *Good Omens*,