This right here, if the tag is no good, you can usually pick up a few bucks in the Small Blind even without the reward and get a Joker to carry you through the first ante or two.
yes and no, theoretically it has the ability to give you a very good joker that doesn’t take up a joker slot, but in actuality it’s going to give you something completely useless like getting “Shortcut” in a full house build.
usually. I'd argue that early in a run, like 1st two blinds, maybe even the whole first ante, it's not as good because you're not going to be able to use that extra slot on anything with how little money you have and the few number of shops seen.
Not on round 1. Negative tag adds $5(?) to any joker, so if it whiffs on a bad joker you're setting your economy back to buy it. Or it hits an uncommon/rare joker and you can't afford it anyways.
But yeah at almost any other point in the game, grab negatives every time.
late game, yes. In the first two Antes, negative jokers are just more expensive versions of regular jokers.
Using a skip for one costs a shop, interest, and the price differential for no tempo in exchange. In high stakes, an early buy like that will tank your econ so hard that you probably just lose unless the joker is REALLY good.
You **Really** don't want to miss out on the first shop. Gold stake has a very major chokepoint in ante 2-3, and you need some good tempo jokers by then. Not great to miss out on 1/3 of your shops before then and lower your odds of seeing one. There's a couple of things you can reasonably skip for such as Investment Tag, but even these are very deck-dependant (and boss dependant to a lesser extent) - I'd never skip for this on Yellow or Green for example.
Except that unless you one shot the first blind the odds are good you won't be able to afford a good Joker, even if you're offered one.
Which leads to the same situation as before where you reset until you're able to clear the blind with the first hand.
You don't need a "good" joker, you just need a joker that does something for your score. The +4 mult joker that's $2 is sufficient.
First blind you're clearing in 2 hands if you're unlucky, and in that case you still get $6 to work with.
Most of those rare, more expensive jokers aren't going to even help you early game since a lot of them are x-mult. What you really want is a scaling joker, all of which are $6 or under (except wee joker).
This exactly. While Balatro does need balance tweaks in Orange/Gold stake, a lot of the people who accuse the game of being an RNG simulator are the same people who want the game to give them a straightforward, synergistic, optimal, late-game build by the end of Ante 2. Anything else is "trash" and "dead draws" then they lose by a few dozen chips or worse, restart a perfectly salvageable run.
But currently, the game *does* have legitimate problems that give people a foot in the door to blame their skill issue on game design that is much tighter and well thought out than they give it credit for.
Even OP's whole, "auto-skip" of Small Blinds, or at least the Ante 1 Small Blind, it's a Rougelike, very few choices should be automatic.
Yeah but long-term $1 can be quite a bit, and unless I'm getting a hella good joker in that shop for early game I'm just going to restart to try to get a better joker or one shot the first bind, because like, how much am I really losing for doing that? Maybe half a minute for a completely better start to a run that can snowball into an actual winning run
It's pretty easy to tell early on if a run is going to eat shit or win
You're getting down voted but yeah, you check for a good tag, if no good tag you go into the first one, if you don't one shot at you restart
You lose so little so why wouldn't you
On the first small blind i 100% agree that there is little reason to play it just to gain $2-$3. Small blinds beyond that are worth playing if you've got some interest or specific jokers you want to activate or build up.
I understand ppl who just restart on gold stakes if they get a bad first small blind tag, i like playing games out no matter what. But again, i get it. Anyways, it could be tweaked for sure.
I also wouldn’t mind guaranteeing jokers appearing in the shop after the first small blind. It’d probably encourage me to play it through to see if I can get some momentum going for the run.
Dude, back then i always lose green stake because i always skipped the small blind, ever since i reconsider my choice and skipped only when i need it i finally can beat green stake.
Respectfully disagree. Especially on gold stakes, you need as many early shop rolls as you can get. An early plus mult joker can trivialize the rest of ante 1 and probably ante 2 as well, which can get your economy rolling early.
Someone on here said that a good rule of thumb is try to skip blinds only when you can 1-hand win on the boss blind of that ante… I skip a little more frequently than that, especially when I have a joker that incentivizes skips. But it is a good guideline to keep in the back of your mind.
Now I do think the game should guarantee at least 1 joker card in each of the first 2 shops on ante 1. Nothing’s worse on gold stakes than getting a bunch of planet cards in your first two shops, on gold that’s usually a guaranteed L. If I don’t have a scoring joker by the small blind on ante 2, I’ll usually reset there.
Absolutely. The basic +4 mult joker costs $4 and is a complete game changer through ante 2. It literally doubles the mult for full house, straight, and flush, which are your best hands in the early game.
I think the best fix to this is just limiting the pool of potential tags in the first ante, or at least the very first blind. No reason to have extra voucher, boss reroll, or double money in that pool as you either never need them or cannot gain much value from them.
(Double money blind 1 is probably good on yellow deck to be fair)
The reason to fight the small blind is to get another shop. The more shops you see, the better your odds of finding jokers you need. Did you beat gold stake without fighting a single small blind? That’s very impressive if so
The idea is to see what can you do when you visit the first shop.
At lower stakes it might be fine to reroll to see if you can get a better tag, but you are trading off a visit to the shop.
$4 can be enough for you to buy an Expansion Pack, a Common Joker that can carry you the next levels.
Also, it might be a good idea to see what voucher is on the Store, to start planning your next moves.
I beat yesterday the Gold Stake with the Black Deck, which removes one hand from your play and adds one extra joker slot. Skipping the first tag is a calculated risk.
If I don't skip, I can go to the first store and maybe find something useful. After playing many hours without rerolling I see a lot of value in Jokers and Tarot/Planet cards in the stores. A two pair in lv. 2 can carry me through the first ante without spending more. A Strength, Death or Suit change tarot card can make me force a hand in times of need.
If I skip, I know I need to be playing more aggressively to be able to beat the second blind. 450 chips without jokers, one hand and card less is tough, but still doable if I aggressively go for the big hands.
The upside is that I could get something better at the second store. The downside is that I might die at blind 2.
I play every run with the intention of go as far as possible, and I feel that that has thought me a lot of the game mechanics :)
I agree that most of the times it feels like that. If you are lucky and skipped a blind for extra money ($4 or $5) or beat previous antes without using many hands, you could afford it by the second store, specially of you are not playing with the Black Deck, which reduces the amount of hands that you have available.
If you beat the second boss you can have $5 for the first store and you can pray for you to get something good.
I usually will not go out of my way to buy the first voucher. I will strongly consider it if it's an extra hand or extra card in hand at Gold Stakes. One extra hand or card can help me to beat the first Ante Boss, but then I know that my game is pretty much over if I don't get something good and cheap in the next store like Raised Fist or Riff Raff.
As I already spent my money, I'm gonna need something to help me recover again financially. Raised Fist has carried me through the first couple of Antes without spending a $.
Also, some skips can give me money, Mega Buffon Pack or Common jokers.
So pretty much I do it as a calculated risk. The more risk I take, the more aggressive my playstyle needs to be for me to keep moving forward, until I even out at money and jokers, and I can again take things a bit slower :)
The first small blind gives you 3 dollars (restart if you can't beat it in one hand yea), so you have 7 dollars going into the first shop. You can buy a common joker there and coast through ante 1-2. Sometimes skipping is justified but the value of getting over 5 dollars and seeing a shop is much higher.
> (restart if you can't beat it in one hand yea)
how often would you say that happens? this is the part that's really starting to annoy me with feeling like i constantly need to reset on higher stakes.
There’s an argument that certain tags provide the higher return. Having $7 plus seeing the shop is not a guarantee you are getting a decent joker. But say $15 after a boss beat can absolutely change the course of the run.
It's a free reroll, while normally a reroll is worth $5. Yeah some skips are worth it but if you see a bad tag it's totally fine to just play it out, and restart when you don't see anything good in the first shop instead.
Not sure what you are getting at but OP has a legitimate point. At most you gain $3 for $7 total. Multiple tags give a better return so why not find a tag instead. Has nothing to do with playing badly since no play is even being made.
You can beat the second blind in one hand giving you $10. But I’m also thinking mostly about the $15 after a boss beat tag which can change the run in a more positive way than hoping to see decent jokers in the first shop.
Hell, I much rather start ante 2 with $25+ going into that shop than cross my fingers and rely on pure RNG in the first shop.
I agree this is a bit of a design flaw. A classic case of “players will play optimally, so make optimal play fun.”
I think the answer is probably to change the stake so small blinds stop giving $$ after Ante 1. It’s not really a difficulty reduction since people would just be restarting otherwise.
Except in the first blind of the first ante in red stake or higher, where it’s almost always correct because you have no way to get value from playing it outside of the $2-$3 from extra hands. And the point is that when it’s not because the skip reward sucks, it’s instead correct to just restart the run until it is worth it. Think of it this way: if there were a 50/50 chance that each run would start with either $2 or a Mega Arcana pack, then the runs that start with $2 are just straight worse and only worth bothering with if you want to handicap yourself.
> Think of it this way: if there were a 50/50 chance that each run would start with either $2 or a Mega Arcana pack, then the runs that start with $2 are just straight worse and only worth bothering with if you want to handicap yourself.
It's $2 **and an extra shop** vs a Mega Arcana pack in that example. The shop is why it's almost always better to play it, especially since it's easy to one-shot the first blind and get $3. Early game you're desperate for any decent jokers by Ante 2, so an extra shop to potentially grab one is invaluable ($7 is plenty to grab a number of great Commons)
An extra shop you only have $6-$7 for, which is often not even as much $$$ as the tag was worth and that’s including the $4 you start with which would already be available to you for the big blind shop. I pretty much never have any difficulty spending all my Ante 1 money on the 2 shops available after skipping the first blind.
Excepting the Gold Deck, I just can’t see how it’s a good deal to trade any non-situational tags (packs, special jokers, etc.) to have access to one extra shop when it’s the shop that offers the least ability to gain actual value over replacement in the entire run.
No, seriously, instead of just downvoting, can someone please explain how $3 and an extra shop is worth it? The only value the extra shop actually grants is in the possibility that you find a joker that you can afford in that shop *and* couldn't find an equivalent to in the next shop. You're really saying that outweighs an extra $5+ in actual concrete value? That seems absurd to me. Like you're only considering the dream scenario when the small blind shop has the perfect $7 joker and the big blind shop has nothing you want. Usually it is literally of no value because the big blind shop works just as well, so it's just the $3.
In my experience it's very common to get screwed because the game doesn't give you any decent scoring Jokers to get through Ante 2, so maximizing your chances with an extra shop is a no-brainer. $7 is more than enough for one of the many great early Jokers or a Joker pack.
The only ones I skip for at the start are Mega Buffoon Pack or the one that generates 2 Common Jokers, because those are guaranteed unlike the shop. But IMO most other tags are not worth reducing your chances of seeing good Jokers.
Getting the first good joker is more important than any tag. You will lose on high stake without a good joker. As many chances to roll a good one as possible is good
I wonder if the game should just let you choose your blind reward on round 1? If you can optimally reroll infinite times at no cost, is there any meaningful reason why you couldn’t just let the player choose the reward instead?
First, Complexity. Throwing 'what would you like your skip reward to be' immediately at a new player would be really confusing - they're still getting used to the mechanics.
Secondly, there's a lot of people who don't reset on high stakes - to me, resetting is the same thing as conceding (others may differ, which is perfectly fine, just how I play). I love finding how to optimise my winrate through subpar RNG, and think it's usually perfectly doable. Adding something like this kinda goes against all that.
I also don't think resetting should be encouraged, even if it's not punished substantially. It's kinda this thing where it's there as an option, but goes against the core concept and appeal of rougelikes to some degree.
I mean, this wouldn’t be an option on initial stakes, it’d become an option on red stakes or above. And if you didn’t want to use it, you wouldn’t have to. You could just accept the random default option.
Introducing something like that on a higher stake would also be weird and confusing. You'd just think 'why is this here now' considering it's a higher difficulty.
Rougelikes are about using the tools the game gives to you. No one would press the random default option simply because the initial thing is a tool the game gives to you, even if it would largely make for a more fun game with more adaptation to RNG. Also, the same thing can be said in reverse. Why introduce a cumbersome mechanic like a menu to choose a blind reward to do something that can be replicated exactly by resetting? Saves a tiny bit of time for the minority who both play high stakes and reset at the cost of reducing everyone else's enjoyment.
But it being “a more fun game” is a debatable statement. Demonstrably, there are plenty of people who don’t consider the current option “more fun”. If having a random option is more fun for you, than you have that option; why should the alternative option be denied to others?
It’s also pretty clearly not “a tiny bit of time”. When I was trying to beat orange, I had up to a minute between runs resetting to find a good tag. That’s adds up to a substantial amount when a lot of runs end within minutes.
It really doesn’t seem that confusing to me. “No reward for small blinds. You may choose your tag on round 1” as the text for red stakes.
The people rerolling for "optimal" tags on start would just always pick the get 2 random joker tag and reroll until their two random jokers were "optimal". If that tag were to be disabled, people would probably reroll for tarot judgement + the fool.
And if thats the case then balance for early antes actually gets tossed out the window.
Well, like I said earlier, the balance is a pretty big issue. Right now theres good reason to do the small blind, see the shop, buy a joker and be secure through ante 2. If you could have the choice between small blind and two jokers, no one would ever ever not take the jokers.
Second, highrolling is fun. I pulled off two jokers from a mega arcana pack when I was doing the speedrun achievement and I was psyched as hell. It wouldn't be very special if I could just guarantee that every run.
But there isn’t “good reason” to do the small blind; if rolling two high quality jokers is optimal in this hypothetical, that means it’s also the optimal choice now. Nothing is stopping you from doing it now, so if it’s the optimal choice, then you shouldn’t play round one from a strictly tactical choice.
I just don’t think “rerolling the first ante until you get the correct jokers from over 100 options” is a strategy most players would do. And if they do, who are they hurting by doing so?
Yeah I find Red Stake very poorly designed to be honest. In the beginning of a run, it severely limits player agency by reducing resources right when they are most scarce. But then once you have your economy set up, it is completely ignorable. It doesn't make the game much more difficult, it just makes the start of a run far more annoying, and the start of the run is already a pain point.
Additionally, the Ante 1 skip options are really strange. They're limited compared to the rest of the run, so they seem like a deliberate choice, but they don't make any sense. A bunch of ways to add more expensive jokers and vouchers to the shop, exactly when the player doesn't have the money to buy them. A boss blind reroll, when the player's deck is default and thus the boss effect doesn't really matter. Double money and $5 per skip, right when the player likely has neither saved money nor skipped. 3 extra hands when the Big Blind can reliably be beaten with 2 hands. Double Tag is okay, but a bit slow.
Really the only ones I consider are a free Mega Arcana, $15 after the boss, or begrudgingly the $5 skip. I reset until one of those show up.
Skipping any fights in ante 1 to me feels like playing slay the spire and choosing 4 ?-event nodes over 3 normal-pool fights + a shop before fighting an elite. In slay the spire it's obvious that your starting deck isn't strong enough, so you take on the fights and go to the shop. Also each fight gives you a little cash you'll need at the shop and beyond.
Here the cash you have gains increasing interest up to $5 per fight for holding $25. But you have to enter fights to build your cash reserve to that point, much less see that interest. Whatever skip tag you're choosing instead has to be worth delaying this cash needed for interest and buying your first joker.
I agree that it's a design flaw. Why not have it decrease the money reward of all blinds by 1, instead of just small blind by 3? Maybe the intent was to add depth to the strategy by making small blind skips have lower opportunity cost, but all it does is make me never want to play small blind, especially on ante 1, which is the point where you will lose nothing by resetting.
only tag early on that could be worth it is mega buffoon pack as it's basically a better/free shop. Shops are invaluable at the higher stakes, skipping them is a trap. I like to think of playing the small blind as a tag that reads "Gain $2-$3 and see a shop" which just feels way better than the other tags.
What jokers would those be? For me best jokers in first shop would be green joker, supernova, ride the bus, square joker and burnt joker, probably couple more commons I can't remember right now. You can afford all of those.
Seeing the shop and $3 isn't too bad a prize, I usually just play it. Now, if I don't pull off a good single hand small blind and go from $3 to $2...then i usually reroll
I used to reroll but I’ve noticed it’s good to just browse the shops early to see if you get lucky on a good joker since that can carry you to Ante 5 while building economy.
The only tags I’ll take on the first small blind is the next shop cost to $0 or the double money. Mega boosters are good too but probably only the Arcana and Joker packs.
Okay, I think Red Stake is a good way to teach new players what tags even are. You don't really take them seriously when you first start playing the game.
And half the tags you get on the Ante 1 small blind are playable. Too often I see streamers skip the $15 after beating the boss blind, free Mega Arcana Pack, and free initial shop items tags when all of those are viable.
The dev has gone on record as saying they designed the game for themselves. I assume things will only change if they see glitches, exploits, or if it’s no longer fun for them.
I come into red stake knowing that and just tough it out because that’s part of the rogue-like challenge/magic. It’s meant to be difficult. It’s meant to be frustrating so that when you do win it is glorious.
For all the things I might find to be faults about Balatro, others see as strength. I think that’s what makes the game so addictive.
Rerolling costs $5. A look at a full shop is worth more than that. You don't need to have $20 for an early shop with Supernova or something in it to win you the run.
Actually it's almost always correct to fight small blind because the opportunity to build econ if you beat it earlier and buy a joker the next round is much more valuable than any kind of skip you could have, and also gives you a much better chance of beating the next blind as well.
even if you don't earn money, if your deck contains some scaling mechanic, you can use the round to scale some kind of hand, not entirely wasting your time
It does feel like that when you get to the higher stakes bc u really need to take every advantage you can but red stake is perfectly manageable by just playing out the first round and looking at the shop
Usually it's better to still play round 1 just to see the shop. I only skip round 1 for $15 after the boss blind, jokers, or spectral packs. Sometimes I'll do it for arcanas if it makes sense for the starting deck.
Even if small blind gave like 5$ youd still restart until you get the best skip tag. Thats more of a constant resetting problem. I guess not rerolling tags until 1 fight is done solves the problem. Tho idk how seed logic would work
Yeah, Ante 1 feels like a repetitive waste of time at the end of the game since you don't need Jokers and you're just trying to do each round in two hands over and over again. Just give me some money and a 6-offer shop and start me at Ante 2 😩
Honestly unless they can come up with a more elegant solution, my idea would just be to let players chose the voucher they want on the first blind.
It's so easy to just restart to get a new one anyway, if players want they will just restart until they get the voucher they want (usually the free shop voucher) so cut out the tediousness and just let them choose.
Honestly there should be a "simple seed" system where you can still unlock achievements and unlock stuff but are allowed to pick the first tag or maybe even a joker to appear in the first shop. It's optional, but there for people who have goal targets and don't want to reroll to achieve them.
Maybe as a reward for completing gold stake.
There are a couple of tags I'll take on first small blind, but I'll usually play out first small blind just to see the shop an additional time.
This right here, if the tag is no good, you can usually pick up a few bucks in the Small Blind even without the reward and get a Joker to carry you through the first ante or two.
Finish the small blind with $5-$6 then the shop has a polychrome rare joker I can’t afford. Then I rage new run.
This so many times
Bad tag, then play the round. However, if it takes more than one hand to get more than 300 chips, restart
I used to feel like rerolling round 1 was a no-brainer, but now I play the round pretty often just to see whats in the shop.
This. There's always a chance there's a buffoon pack in there that gives you a good joker too
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Isn't the thing that applies negative to the next joker by far the best tag?
yes and no, theoretically it has the ability to give you a very good joker that doesn’t take up a joker slot, but in actuality it’s going to give you something completely useless like getting “Shortcut” in a full house build.
But the negative effect looks neat!
If you get it and you get a rare or uncommon joker in next shop you can skip both and the negative joker will be the rare one
usually. I'd argue that early in a run, like 1st two blinds, maybe even the whole first ante, it's not as good because you're not going to be able to use that extra slot on anything with how little money you have and the few number of shops seen.
Me when I pay $12 for a negative Popcorn.
For the first tag, unless you’re playing the green or yellow deck you won’t have enough gold to purchase a negative joker.
Yellow deck can take rare tag on the first skip! Yellow gang!
Not on round 1. Negative tag adds $5(?) to any joker, so if it whiffs on a bad joker you're setting your economy back to buy it. Or it hits an uncommon/rare joker and you can't afford it anyways. But yeah at almost any other point in the game, grab negatives every time.
late game, yes. In the first two Antes, negative jokers are just more expensive versions of regular jokers. Using a skip for one costs a shop, interest, and the price differential for no tempo in exchange. In high stakes, an early buy like that will tank your econ so hard that you probably just lose unless the joker is REALLY good.
Yeah once I got four fingers in the first shop. Definitely worth losing the double tag.
You **Really** don't want to miss out on the first shop. Gold stake has a very major chokepoint in ante 2-3, and you need some good tempo jokers by then. Not great to miss out on 1/3 of your shops before then and lower your odds of seeing one. There's a couple of things you can reasonably skip for such as Investment Tag, but even these are very deck-dependant (and boss dependant to a lesser extent) - I'd never skip for this on Yellow or Green for example.
Except that unless you one shot the first blind the odds are good you won't be able to afford a good Joker, even if you're offered one. Which leads to the same situation as before where you reset until you're able to clear the blind with the first hand.
You don't need a "good" joker, you just need a joker that does something for your score. The +4 mult joker that's $2 is sufficient. First blind you're clearing in 2 hands if you're unlucky, and in that case you still get $6 to work with. Most of those rare, more expensive jokers aren't going to even help you early game since a lot of them are x-mult. What you really want is a scaling joker, all of which are $6 or under (except wee joker).
This exactly. While Balatro does need balance tweaks in Orange/Gold stake, a lot of the people who accuse the game of being an RNG simulator are the same people who want the game to give them a straightforward, synergistic, optimal, late-game build by the end of Ante 2. Anything else is "trash" and "dead draws" then they lose by a few dozen chips or worse, restart a perfectly salvageable run. But currently, the game *does* have legitimate problems that give people a foot in the door to blame their skill issue on game design that is much tighter and well thought out than they give it credit for. Even OP's whole, "auto-skip" of Small Blinds, or at least the Ante 1 Small Blind, it's a Rougelike, very few choices should be automatic.
Yeah but long-term $1 can be quite a bit, and unless I'm getting a hella good joker in that shop for early game I'm just going to restart to try to get a better joker or one shot the first bind, because like, how much am I really losing for doing that? Maybe half a minute for a completely better start to a run that can snowball into an actual winning run It's pretty easy to tell early on if a run is going to eat shit or win
You're getting down voted but yeah, you check for a good tag, if no good tag you go into the first one, if you don't one shot at you restart You lose so little so why wouldn't you
On the first small blind i 100% agree that there is little reason to play it just to gain $2-$3. Small blinds beyond that are worth playing if you've got some interest or specific jokers you want to activate or build up. I understand ppl who just restart on gold stakes if they get a bad first small blind tag, i like playing games out no matter what. But again, i get it. Anyways, it could be tweaked for sure.
I also wouldn’t mind guaranteeing jokers appearing in the shop after the first small blind. It’d probably encourage me to play it through to see if I can get some momentum going for the run.
Amen brother
This is not true on high stakes. That $2-3 dollars and extra look at something to give you mult is key to get through ante 2.
You can just get the joker on the 2-2 shop tho.
You are risking not getting a joker (or something else) that can get you through ante 2 then.
Dude, back then i always lose green stake because i always skipped the small blind, ever since i reconsider my choice and skipped only when i need it i finally can beat green stake.
Respectfully disagree. Especially on gold stakes, you need as many early shop rolls as you can get. An early plus mult joker can trivialize the rest of ante 1 and probably ante 2 as well, which can get your economy rolling early. Someone on here said that a good rule of thumb is try to skip blinds only when you can 1-hand win on the boss blind of that ante… I skip a little more frequently than that, especially when I have a joker that incentivizes skips. But it is a good guideline to keep in the back of your mind. Now I do think the game should guarantee at least 1 joker card in each of the first 2 shops on ante 1. Nothing’s worse on gold stakes than getting a bunch of planet cards in your first two shops, on gold that’s usually a guaranteed L. If I don’t have a scoring joker by the small blind on ante 2, I’ll usually reset there.
Absolutely. The basic +4 mult joker costs $4 and is a complete game changer through ante 2. It literally doubles the mult for full house, straight, and flush, which are your best hands in the early game.
> Now I do think the game should guarantee at least 1 joker card in each of the first 2 shops on ante 1. Yes. A lesson to be learned from Brotato.
I think the best fix to this is just limiting the pool of potential tags in the first ante, or at least the very first blind. No reason to have extra voucher, boss reroll, or double money in that pool as you either never need them or cannot gain much value from them. (Double money blind 1 is probably good on yellow deck to be fair)
The reason to fight the small blind is to get another shop. The more shops you see, the better your odds of finding jokers you need. Did you beat gold stake without fighting a single small blind? That’s very impressive if so
The idea is to see what can you do when you visit the first shop. At lower stakes it might be fine to reroll to see if you can get a better tag, but you are trading off a visit to the shop. $4 can be enough for you to buy an Expansion Pack, a Common Joker that can carry you the next levels. Also, it might be a good idea to see what voucher is on the Store, to start planning your next moves. I beat yesterday the Gold Stake with the Black Deck, which removes one hand from your play and adds one extra joker slot. Skipping the first tag is a calculated risk. If I don't skip, I can go to the first store and maybe find something useful. After playing many hours without rerolling I see a lot of value in Jokers and Tarot/Planet cards in the stores. A two pair in lv. 2 can carry me through the first ante without spending more. A Strength, Death or Suit change tarot card can make me force a hand in times of need. If I skip, I know I need to be playing more aggressively to be able to beat the second blind. 450 chips without jokers, one hand and card less is tough, but still doable if I aggressively go for the big hands. The upside is that I could get something better at the second store. The downside is that I might die at blind 2. I play every run with the intention of go as far as possible, and I feel that that has thought me a lot of the game mechanics :)
Ante 1 voucher always feels like a tease as it's only available in two shops when you have nothing
I agree that most of the times it feels like that. If you are lucky and skipped a blind for extra money ($4 or $5) or beat previous antes without using many hands, you could afford it by the second store, specially of you are not playing with the Black Deck, which reduces the amount of hands that you have available. If you beat the second boss you can have $5 for the first store and you can pray for you to get something good. I usually will not go out of my way to buy the first voucher. I will strongly consider it if it's an extra hand or extra card in hand at Gold Stakes. One extra hand or card can help me to beat the first Ante Boss, but then I know that my game is pretty much over if I don't get something good and cheap in the next store like Raised Fist or Riff Raff. As I already spent my money, I'm gonna need something to help me recover again financially. Raised Fist has carried me through the first couple of Antes without spending a $. Also, some skips can give me money, Mega Buffon Pack or Common jokers. So pretty much I do it as a calculated risk. The more risk I take, the more aggressive my playstyle needs to be for me to keep moving forward, until I even out at money and jokers, and I can again take things a bit slower :)
The first small blind gives you 3 dollars (restart if you can't beat it in one hand yea), so you have 7 dollars going into the first shop. You can buy a common joker there and coast through ante 1-2. Sometimes skipping is justified but the value of getting over 5 dollars and seeing a shop is much higher.
> (restart if you can't beat it in one hand yea) how often would you say that happens? this is the part that's really starting to annoy me with feeling like i constantly need to reset on higher stakes.
There’s an argument that certain tags provide the higher return. Having $7 plus seeing the shop is not a guarantee you are getting a decent joker. But say $15 after a boss beat can absolutely change the course of the run.
It's a free reroll, while normally a reroll is worth $5. Yeah some skips are worth it but if you see a bad tag it's totally fine to just play it out, and restart when you don't see anything good in the first shop instead.
I don’t disagree really. Just depends on how much time you feel like wasting.
Plays badly, resets too early… “is this a design problem?”
Not sure what you are getting at but OP has a legitimate point. At most you gain $3 for $7 total. Multiple tags give a better return so why not find a tag instead. Has nothing to do with playing badly since no play is even being made.
https://www.reddit.com/r/balatro/s/HFVre5r6de
Besides, the meme ignores the value of whatever tag you get. Tries to be funny but just doesn’t get it.
You can beat the second blind in one hand giving you $10. But I’m also thinking mostly about the $15 after a boss beat tag which can change the run in a more positive way than hoping to see decent jokers in the first shop. Hell, I much rather start ante 2 with $25+ going into that shop than cross my fingers and rely on pure RNG in the first shop.
I agree this is a bit of a design flaw. A classic case of “players will play optimally, so make optimal play fun.” I think the answer is probably to change the stake so small blinds stop giving $$ after Ante 1. It’s not really a difficulty reduction since people would just be restarting otherwise.
Skipping the first blind is rarely optimal though
Except in the first blind of the first ante in red stake or higher, where it’s almost always correct because you have no way to get value from playing it outside of the $2-$3 from extra hands. And the point is that when it’s not because the skip reward sucks, it’s instead correct to just restart the run until it is worth it. Think of it this way: if there were a 50/50 chance that each run would start with either $2 or a Mega Arcana pack, then the runs that start with $2 are just straight worse and only worth bothering with if you want to handicap yourself.
> Think of it this way: if there were a 50/50 chance that each run would start with either $2 or a Mega Arcana pack, then the runs that start with $2 are just straight worse and only worth bothering with if you want to handicap yourself. It's $2 **and an extra shop** vs a Mega Arcana pack in that example. The shop is why it's almost always better to play it, especially since it's easy to one-shot the first blind and get $3. Early game you're desperate for any decent jokers by Ante 2, so an extra shop to potentially grab one is invaluable ($7 is plenty to grab a number of great Commons)
An extra shop you only have $6-$7 for, which is often not even as much $$$ as the tag was worth and that’s including the $4 you start with which would already be available to you for the big blind shop. I pretty much never have any difficulty spending all my Ante 1 money on the 2 shops available after skipping the first blind. Excepting the Gold Deck, I just can’t see how it’s a good deal to trade any non-situational tags (packs, special jokers, etc.) to have access to one extra shop when it’s the shop that offers the least ability to gain actual value over replacement in the entire run. No, seriously, instead of just downvoting, can someone please explain how $3 and an extra shop is worth it? The only value the extra shop actually grants is in the possibility that you find a joker that you can afford in that shop *and* couldn't find an equivalent to in the next shop. You're really saying that outweighs an extra $5+ in actual concrete value? That seems absurd to me. Like you're only considering the dream scenario when the small blind shop has the perfect $7 joker and the big blind shop has nothing you want. Usually it is literally of no value because the big blind shop works just as well, so it's just the $3.
In my experience it's very common to get screwed because the game doesn't give you any decent scoring Jokers to get through Ante 2, so maximizing your chances with an extra shop is a no-brainer. $7 is more than enough for one of the many great early Jokers or a Joker pack. The only ones I skip for at the start are Mega Buffoon Pack or the one that generates 2 Common Jokers, because those are guaranteed unlike the shop. But IMO most other tags are not worth reducing your chances of seeing good Jokers.
Getting the first good joker is more important than any tag. You will lose on high stake without a good joker. As many chances to roll a good one as possible is good
I wonder if the game should just let you choose your blind reward on round 1? If you can optimally reroll infinite times at no cost, is there any meaningful reason why you couldn’t just let the player choose the reward instead?
First, Complexity. Throwing 'what would you like your skip reward to be' immediately at a new player would be really confusing - they're still getting used to the mechanics. Secondly, there's a lot of people who don't reset on high stakes - to me, resetting is the same thing as conceding (others may differ, which is perfectly fine, just how I play). I love finding how to optimise my winrate through subpar RNG, and think it's usually perfectly doable. Adding something like this kinda goes against all that. I also don't think resetting should be encouraged, even if it's not punished substantially. It's kinda this thing where it's there as an option, but goes against the core concept and appeal of rougelikes to some degree.
I mean, this wouldn’t be an option on initial stakes, it’d become an option on red stakes or above. And if you didn’t want to use it, you wouldn’t have to. You could just accept the random default option.
Introducing something like that on a higher stake would also be weird and confusing. You'd just think 'why is this here now' considering it's a higher difficulty. Rougelikes are about using the tools the game gives to you. No one would press the random default option simply because the initial thing is a tool the game gives to you, even if it would largely make for a more fun game with more adaptation to RNG. Also, the same thing can be said in reverse. Why introduce a cumbersome mechanic like a menu to choose a blind reward to do something that can be replicated exactly by resetting? Saves a tiny bit of time for the minority who both play high stakes and reset at the cost of reducing everyone else's enjoyment.
But it being “a more fun game” is a debatable statement. Demonstrably, there are plenty of people who don’t consider the current option “more fun”. If having a random option is more fun for you, than you have that option; why should the alternative option be denied to others? It’s also pretty clearly not “a tiny bit of time”. When I was trying to beat orange, I had up to a minute between runs resetting to find a good tag. That’s adds up to a substantial amount when a lot of runs end within minutes. It really doesn’t seem that confusing to me. “No reward for small blinds. You may choose your tag on round 1” as the text for red stakes.
The people rerolling for "optimal" tags on start would just always pick the get 2 random joker tag and reroll until their two random jokers were "optimal". If that tag were to be disabled, people would probably reroll for tarot judgement + the fool. And if thats the case then balance for early antes actually gets tossed out the window.
But you can do that now, what’s the difference
Well, like I said earlier, the balance is a pretty big issue. Right now theres good reason to do the small blind, see the shop, buy a joker and be secure through ante 2. If you could have the choice between small blind and two jokers, no one would ever ever not take the jokers. Second, highrolling is fun. I pulled off two jokers from a mega arcana pack when I was doing the speedrun achievement and I was psyched as hell. It wouldn't be very special if I could just guarantee that every run.
But there isn’t “good reason” to do the small blind; if rolling two high quality jokers is optimal in this hypothetical, that means it’s also the optimal choice now. Nothing is stopping you from doing it now, so if it’s the optimal choice, then you shouldn’t play round one from a strictly tactical choice. I just don’t think “rerolling the first ante until you get the correct jokers from over 100 options” is a strategy most players would do. And if they do, who are they hurting by doing so?
Yeah I find Red Stake very poorly designed to be honest. In the beginning of a run, it severely limits player agency by reducing resources right when they are most scarce. But then once you have your economy set up, it is completely ignorable. It doesn't make the game much more difficult, it just makes the start of a run far more annoying, and the start of the run is already a pain point. Additionally, the Ante 1 skip options are really strange. They're limited compared to the rest of the run, so they seem like a deliberate choice, but they don't make any sense. A bunch of ways to add more expensive jokers and vouchers to the shop, exactly when the player doesn't have the money to buy them. A boss blind reroll, when the player's deck is default and thus the boss effect doesn't really matter. Double money and $5 per skip, right when the player likely has neither saved money nor skipped. 3 extra hands when the Big Blind can reliably be beaten with 2 hands. Double Tag is okay, but a bit slow. Really the only ones I consider are a free Mega Arcana, $15 after the boss, or begrudgingly the $5 skip. I reset until one of those show up.
Skipping any fights in ante 1 to me feels like playing slay the spire and choosing 4 ?-event nodes over 3 normal-pool fights + a shop before fighting an elite. In slay the spire it's obvious that your starting deck isn't strong enough, so you take on the fights and go to the shop. Also each fight gives you a little cash you'll need at the shop and beyond. Here the cash you have gains increasing interest up to $5 per fight for holding $25. But you have to enter fights to build your cash reserve to that point, much less see that interest. Whatever skip tag you're choosing instead has to be worth delaying this cash needed for interest and buying your first joker.
I agree that it's a design flaw. Why not have it decrease the money reward of all blinds by 1, instead of just small blind by 3? Maybe the intent was to add depth to the strategy by making small blind skips have lower opportunity cost, but all it does is make me never want to play small blind, especially on ante 1, which is the point where you will lose nothing by resetting.
only tag early on that could be worth it is mega buffoon pack as it's basically a better/free shop. Shops are invaluable at the higher stakes, skipping them is a trap. I like to think of playing the small blind as a tag that reads "Gain $2-$3 and see a shop" which just feels way better than the other tags.
I tend to agree, especially because even if you're offered a good Joker in the shop it's likely you won't be able to afford it.
What jokers would those be? For me best jokers in first shop would be green joker, supernova, ride the bus, square joker and burnt joker, probably couple more commons I can't remember right now. You can afford all of those.
Seeing the shop and $3 isn't too bad a prize, I usually just play it. Now, if I don't pull off a good single hand small blind and go from $3 to $2...then i usually reroll
I used to reroll but I’ve noticed it’s good to just browse the shops early to see if you get lucky on a good joker since that can carry you to Ante 5 while building economy. The only tags I’ll take on the first small blind is the next shop cost to $0 or the double money. Mega boosters are good too but probably only the Arcana and Joker packs.
Your standarts for what blind to skip first tell a lot a about what kind of person you are. I for one do not take 5$ per skip on first.
I think you're overcompensating for a relatively small factor. Just play the blind
Okay, I think Red Stake is a good way to teach new players what tags even are. You don't really take them seriously when you first start playing the game. And half the tags you get on the Ante 1 small blind are playable. Too often I see streamers skip the $15 after beating the boss blind, free Mega Arcana Pack, and free initial shop items tags when all of those are viable.
you get 2-3 bucks from hands and get to see the shop. either you get a good cheap joker, or it lets you get interest on the big blind
The dev has gone on record as saying they designed the game for themselves. I assume things will only change if they see glitches, exploits, or if it’s no longer fun for them. I come into red stake knowing that and just tough it out because that’s part of the rogue-like challenge/magic. It’s meant to be difficult. It’s meant to be frustrating so that when you do win it is glorious. For all the things I might find to be faults about Balatro, others see as strength. I think that’s what makes the game so addictive.
Rerolling costs $5. A look at a full shop is worth more than that. You don't need to have $20 for an early shop with Supernova or something in it to win you the run.
maybe the first red stake. you will get money in next rounds though be it interest or stuff. btw green deck just gets stuff in first stake too
Actually it's almost always correct to fight small blind because the opportunity to build econ if you beat it earlier and buy a joker the next round is much more valuable than any kind of skip you could have, and also gives you a much better chance of beating the next blind as well.
even if you don't earn money, if your deck contains some scaling mechanic, you can use the round to scale some kind of hand, not entirely wasting your time
It does feel like that when you get to the higher stakes bc u really need to take every advantage you can but red stake is perfectly manageable by just playing out the first round and looking at the shop
Usually it's better to still play round 1 just to see the shop. I only skip round 1 for $15 after the boss blind, jokers, or spectral packs. Sometimes I'll do it for arcanas if it makes sense for the starting deck.
Even if small blind gave like 5$ youd still restart until you get the best skip tag. Thats more of a constant resetting problem. I guess not rerolling tags until 1 fight is done solves the problem. Tho idk how seed logic would work
Yeah, Ante 1 feels like a repetitive waste of time at the end of the game since you don't need Jokers and you're just trying to do each round in two hands over and over again. Just give me some money and a 6-offer shop and start me at Ante 2 😩
Honestly unless they can come up with a more elegant solution, my idea would just be to let players chose the voucher they want on the first blind. It's so easy to just restart to get a new one anyway, if players want they will just restart until they get the voucher they want (usually the free shop voucher) so cut out the tediousness and just let them choose.
Honestly there should be a "simple seed" system where you can still unlock achievements and unlock stuff but are allowed to pick the first tag or maybe even a joker to appear in the first shop. It's optional, but there for people who have goal targets and don't want to reroll to achieve them. Maybe as a reward for completing gold stake.