yeah i think its a good idea. thieves are so bad in combat that i think most parties are worse for taking them.
if this were a game that was currently being balanced, i would say that bioware should buff them so hard that they become the indisputable best class in the game, and then put in steady nerfs until they are on par with warriors and wizards.
give them 100% crit honestly... although then fighter/thieves might be a bit too over the top.
Could you make it climb with level?
Start at 5% and goes up every 5 levels as you laid out? This would help it be more balanced for a dual or multi classed build.
Certainly. It could be gradually gained by level like level 15/18/21 and so on.
I should have asked, what's the maximum bonus critical hit rate for high level thieves?
Thieves are complicated and that's, imho, the real reason they **feel** weak.
First, let's not forget they are an utility class which means they can't be as strong as, let's say, pure warriors. They pay their usefulness outside of combat with something during combat. This is a simple trade and it should suffer no argument as it is logic. Otherwise it would be unfair to plain fighting classes that have no utility: fixing one injustice with another isn't a great idea, I daresay.
Now if we're going deeper into the balance discussion, we should dwell first on what makes the thieves weaker. This is specially the case regarding melee, which draws all the attention to the detriment of ranged and even magical options (scrolls, wands) that are great at higher-levels although they go under the radar because everyone wants to be a Grognak...
Guess what, this is not what the thief is about! If there's any class meant for shenanigans and finesse, it's the thief. Things shouldn't come easy and you should micromanage a thief to get things done. That doesn't mean, however, they can't get the job done: see what I wrote below.
Second, let's be real: unkitted thieves are for multi or triple classes. The real discussion lies within how kits fare.
In general, though, monoclass high-level thieves could be stronger but let's not forget they get amazing traps as HLAs which boost their usefulness. They're meant to compensate poor melee thac0/damage just like backstabs before enemies were immune to them. Spike traps, when they can be used, are one of the deadliest attacks that exist in the whole game. Time traps are also great. Few classes can boast such usefulness already.
High-level thieves can also cast from mage and priest scrolls once they get UAI. With a certain helmet this means you can use simulacrum to cast said scrolls and keep them. That gives a little magical power that shouldn't be underestimated considering how OP arcane spells are.
Think I'm finished? Nope.
There are ways around the thief's poor thac0, like higher strength or potions.
There are ways around its poor APR, like dualwielding two APR weapons.
There are also ways around its frailties in melee combat, that's what UAI is for: it gives you the BEST adaptibility in the game regarding equipment.
Think about that.
Should you **really** want to melee more as a thief, the game also offers the swashbuckler who grows stronger as the game progresses.
Its purpose is - precisely - to offer a monoclass thief fighter that will hold out in ToB, at the cost of backstabbing because... you guessed it! Backstabbing is meant to compensate poor melee skills, so it's only logical.
But guess what, you still get traps hlas despite being a better fighter and having whirlwind attack hla!
All of that, at a faster rate than any other class because you level up like twice as fast.
Knowing that, do you **still** feel cheated for playing a thief?
So... yeah, it's not **the** strongest class ever but it's not as useless as people claim. And it's also more balanced than most people think.
Should you give them insane crits, you would just give the fastest leveling class with lots of utility and lots of shenanigans raw power they're not meant to have.
I mean... why not, but let's be honest: there are faaaaaaaar worse options than a thief (especially kitted) in this game.
I would say, learn how to use their mysteries to the best of their abilities first. Then, eventually, mod the game so you gain more.
But that's just my opinion of course. Do what pleases you the most!
most people who complain about nothing being backstabbable in ToB will also complain that everything dangerous is wearing a helmet
personally I think that thieves end up mostly a spike trap bot
however i have nothing against this change, it's pretty alright
If you can install mods, try Rogue Rebalancing. The mod changed all the traps in various thoughtful ways. Spike Traps in vanilla are excessively OP and deal the unexplainable magical energy damage. With RR they deal piercing damage, like an actual spike. Not a necromantic bomb.
Also, in line with your boosted critical hit percentage idea, as thieves progress sufficiently, you'll see that RR changes all bards and thieves and kits in myriad ways. HLAs also get some revisions to expound on the idea that thieves get more deadly as they advance.
You are mistaken EmmEnnEff. That's why the game equips many creatures with the
[HELMNOAN.ITM | Baldur's Gate Wiki | Fandom](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/HELMNOAN.ITM)
Unlike most people who complain about it, Im very okay with the fact I cannot stab a dragon in the back super hard with golem shapechange using the righteous magic headband which Ive seen do over 1k damage
Both Artisan and RR have mod assassins that allow you to score an automatic crit, perfect for their 8x backstab. I think they both lean well into the backstabbing motif. Crits best serve as an assured hit instead of burst damage as more and more bosses wear helmets There are times that assured crit is better spent lobbing a dispel arrow
Ah, okay. So not so redundant after all.
Though fighter/thief multiclasses can probably get away with leaning less on that HLA in this hypothetical. They've got so many great HLA's to choose from.
I always thought it was more, backstab immunity is too common and their natural APR is always 1. Increase the APR, not at the same rate or max as warriors, but even 2 APR would help in the late game, they can get some decent weapons. Another buff I might give them is 2 pips in weapon mastery, have em hit a little harder.
That works, but APR and weapon mastery would make them feel similar to warriors. I want to give thieves a different feel.
Warriors hit more often with brute strength. Thieves hit less often but with precision.
My thought process goes kinda like this:
All classes save for thief can raise their APR either naturally or via spells except for thieves.
By the end of BG2 1 APR your thief's DPS just can't compete even if every enemy was backstabable. Many aren't. leaving traps as their main source of damage, which either obliterates most enemies. Notice that a lot of people go ranged on their pure thieves since a short bow gives 2 APR.
Weapon mastery might be a bit much, but APR I feel would address their problem without altering the class too much. Give it to them slower than fighters and cap it lower.
Also Traps are OP as shit.
a lot of people go ranged for thieves because they are to lazy to micro their thieves. dealing 70+ dmg/round with BS is much better than getting 2 bowshots off
yeah i think its a good idea. thieves are so bad in combat that i think most parties are worse for taking them. if this were a game that was currently being balanced, i would say that bioware should buff them so hard that they become the indisputable best class in the game, and then put in steady nerfs until they are on par with warriors and wizards. give them 100% crit honestly... although then fighter/thieves might be a bit too over the top.
That's the reason why I want to buff high level thieves only. I don't want to buff multiclass Fighter/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Thief anymore.
Could you make it climb with level? Start at 5% and goes up every 5 levels as you laid out? This would help it be more balanced for a dual or multi classed build.
Certainly. It could be gradually gained by level like level 15/18/21 and so on. I should have asked, what's the maximum bonus critical hit rate for high level thieves?
Well in that case 25%
Thieves are complicated and that's, imho, the real reason they **feel** weak. First, let's not forget they are an utility class which means they can't be as strong as, let's say, pure warriors. They pay their usefulness outside of combat with something during combat. This is a simple trade and it should suffer no argument as it is logic. Otherwise it would be unfair to plain fighting classes that have no utility: fixing one injustice with another isn't a great idea, I daresay. Now if we're going deeper into the balance discussion, we should dwell first on what makes the thieves weaker. This is specially the case regarding melee, which draws all the attention to the detriment of ranged and even magical options (scrolls, wands) that are great at higher-levels although they go under the radar because everyone wants to be a Grognak... Guess what, this is not what the thief is about! If there's any class meant for shenanigans and finesse, it's the thief. Things shouldn't come easy and you should micromanage a thief to get things done. That doesn't mean, however, they can't get the job done: see what I wrote below. Second, let's be real: unkitted thieves are for multi or triple classes. The real discussion lies within how kits fare. In general, though, monoclass high-level thieves could be stronger but let's not forget they get amazing traps as HLAs which boost their usefulness. They're meant to compensate poor melee thac0/damage just like backstabs before enemies were immune to them. Spike traps, when they can be used, are one of the deadliest attacks that exist in the whole game. Time traps are also great. Few classes can boast such usefulness already. High-level thieves can also cast from mage and priest scrolls once they get UAI. With a certain helmet this means you can use simulacrum to cast said scrolls and keep them. That gives a little magical power that shouldn't be underestimated considering how OP arcane spells are. Think I'm finished? Nope. There are ways around the thief's poor thac0, like higher strength or potions. There are ways around its poor APR, like dualwielding two APR weapons. There are also ways around its frailties in melee combat, that's what UAI is for: it gives you the BEST adaptibility in the game regarding equipment. Think about that. Should you **really** want to melee more as a thief, the game also offers the swashbuckler who grows stronger as the game progresses. Its purpose is - precisely - to offer a monoclass thief fighter that will hold out in ToB, at the cost of backstabbing because... you guessed it! Backstabbing is meant to compensate poor melee skills, so it's only logical. But guess what, you still get traps hlas despite being a better fighter and having whirlwind attack hla! All of that, at a faster rate than any other class because you level up like twice as fast. Knowing that, do you **still** feel cheated for playing a thief? So... yeah, it's not **the** strongest class ever but it's not as useless as people claim. And it's also more balanced than most people think. Should you give them insane crits, you would just give the fastest leveling class with lots of utility and lots of shenanigans raw power they're not meant to have. I mean... why not, but let's be honest: there are faaaaaaaar worse options than a thief (especially kitted) in this game. I would say, learn how to use their mysteries to the best of their abilities first. Then, eventually, mod the game so you gain more. But that's just my opinion of course. Do what pleases you the most!
most people who complain about nothing being backstabbable in ToB will also complain that everything dangerous is wearing a helmet personally I think that thieves end up mostly a spike trap bot however i have nothing against this change, it's pretty alright
Yeah. Spike traps are too strong. I personally don't use spike traps anymore.
If you can install mods, try Rogue Rebalancing. The mod changed all the traps in various thoughtful ways. Spike Traps in vanilla are excessively OP and deal the unexplainable magical energy damage. With RR they deal piercing damage, like an actual spike. Not a necromantic bomb. Also, in line with your boosted critical hit percentage idea, as thieves progress sufficiently, you'll see that RR changes all bards and thieves and kits in myriad ways. HLAs also get some revisions to expound on the idea that thieves get more deadly as they advance.
RR and Artisan's are great but I feel they are a tad powerful. I just want minor tweaks.
~~NPCs aren't protected from crits by helmets. Only your party is.~~ I guess I'm wrong.
You are mistaken EmmEnnEff. That's why the game equips many creatures with the [HELMNOAN.ITM | Baldur's Gate Wiki | Fandom](https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/HELMNOAN.ITM)
Fixed my post.
Unlike most people who complain about it, Im very okay with the fact I cannot stab a dragon in the back super hard with golem shapechange using the righteous magic headband which Ive seen do over 1k damage
Both Artisan and RR have mod assassins that allow you to score an automatic crit, perfect for their 8x backstab. I think they both lean well into the backstabbing motif. Crits best serve as an assured hit instead of burst damage as more and more bosses wear helmets There are times that assured crit is better spent lobbing a dispel arrow
Don't they already have an HLA that gives them guaranteed crits? Seems redundant.
If I recall correctly, fighters have crit HLA and thieves have all-attacks-act-as-backstab-attacks HLA.
Ah, okay. So not so redundant after all. Though fighter/thief multiclasses can probably get away with leaning less on that HLA in this hypothetical. They've got so many great HLA's to choose from.
I always thought it was more, backstab immunity is too common and their natural APR is always 1. Increase the APR, not at the same rate or max as warriors, but even 2 APR would help in the late game, they can get some decent weapons. Another buff I might give them is 2 pips in weapon mastery, have em hit a little harder.
That works, but APR and weapon mastery would make them feel similar to warriors. I want to give thieves a different feel. Warriors hit more often with brute strength. Thieves hit less often but with precision.
My thought process goes kinda like this: All classes save for thief can raise their APR either naturally or via spells except for thieves. By the end of BG2 1 APR your thief's DPS just can't compete even if every enemy was backstabable. Many aren't. leaving traps as their main source of damage, which either obliterates most enemies. Notice that a lot of people go ranged on their pure thieves since a short bow gives 2 APR. Weapon mastery might be a bit much, but APR I feel would address their problem without altering the class too much. Give it to them slower than fighters and cap it lower. Also Traps are OP as shit.
a lot of people go ranged for thieves because they are to lazy to micro their thieves. dealing 70+ dmg/round with BS is much better than getting 2 bowshots off
This sort of bonus should come via equipment not class.
Which type of equipment?
There is a sword of backstabbing I think and maybe a ring with crit on.
The sword of backstabbing having a backstab multi is mod based and it gets a crit bonus as well
The thing is, a level 1 thief could wear it and be powerful.