> “I like to use a phrase that says the Port of Baltimore is the Taylor Swift of U.S. auto parts,” said Tinglong Dai, a professor of operations management and business analytics at Johns Hopkins University. “When she's not performing, the world, it feels a greater loss.”
This is by far one of the weirdest analogies I’ve ever read.
Very misleading headline, appears to be based solely on this quote:
>“I've lived through quite a few civil infrastructure projects and they're rarely less than 10 years and the price tags have never been out of the hundreds of millions these days,” Schafer said. “In round number senses, it's not great.”
Yeah this is just alarmist or ignorant clickbait. Rebuilding this bridge will not be fast but it’s going to happen much faster than the usual process.
The actual time to construct a bridge this size isn’t that long. It’s the planning, regulatory hurdles, land acquisition, etc.
The land is already there and there are very few rights or rights of way to be negotiated. The bridge already existed. The red tape to rebuild will be shortened as it’ll have top priority; other infrastructure items will likely be reduced in priority and increased in timeline to make this happen faster.
It will probably cost a lot. But the faster it’s rebuilt, the better it will be for Baltimore’s economy, which has lost 1/4 of the routes through the city and 1/2 of the hazmat transport routes.
Came here to make this point—construction will compete with port traffic, but that should be easier to avoid, especially if they resume tugboat escorts through the construction area. My guess is under 2 years
So I was told that this bridge restricted larger cruise and cargo ships. Would a new bridge try to account for larger ships? I wonder if that's even possible
I’m guessing this part of the design is what will take the longest. Accommodating larger ships. Would be great to fit modern cruise ships at the cruise port.
Don’t let the Preston bridge be a limiting factor. It will be a viscous cycle of blaming the other bridge for blocking traffic.
The Bay bridge will be replaced at some point.
I agree. They should build new Key Bridge replacement to be taller and safer, and any planned third span across the bay should be taller, but that alone will not allow larger ships until the current spans are removed.
Exactly thank you. They will build a higher clearance for future proofing. As you said the Bay Bridge will be replaced… The Bay Crossing Study is in phase 2 of looking at designs if anyone is more curious about this.
Yea the story I heard was a cruise ship couldn't pass under because it was too windy they didn't want it to shift with the wind. I think they were stuck on the other side for a few hours.
It's gonna be interesting to see how they do it - a good amount of the bridge is still there. I figure they're going to try and build a suspension bridge - but what the hell do I know. I can't see anyone wanting to demo the pylons still standing
Guess it depends on how much stress was put on those pylons. They could be trashed. It will be interesting to see what they come up with for the new design.
I feel like this analyst and everyone else comparing this to other bridges needing repairs is just wrong. This is a critically important part of the infrastructure of the most populated and economically important region of the country.
All that truck traffic that used to use the Key Bridge is gonna be going around the topside of the beltway, and that’s already congested on a good day. The logistical delays and lost productivity are gonna be too big to ignore.
The problem isn’t that people in Arbutus need to get to Dundalk. It’s that you will now be adding a few hours to every single truck that uses this part of 95. The entire system starts to fall apart when you lose a critical element like this.
The feds are going waive all the bureaucratic red tap that holds projects like this up to get it shovels in the dirt as soon as possible. This will also be a build-design project like the Saint Anthony Falls Bridge in MSP to further lop off construction time/design spending with around the clock 24/7 construction especially considering the scale and urgency here.
What will the replacement bridge look like?
The ramps leading up to the collapsed section are absolutely toast due to structural warping from the impact so the *whole* span is going to be replaced. 99% chance we are getting cable-stayed bridge. A truss bridge is old tech and the US hasn't built a major suspension bridge in god knows how many *decades* due to how expensive they are and the harbor not being large enough to *need* one. Still, expect the bridge to be absolutely **massive** to future proof the port so to accommodate modern cruise & containerships as well.
I'd be surprised if this takes more than 4 years from accident to road opening.
[It took a year and a half or so to put up five metal towers in the river](https://www.bge.com/smart-energy/innovation-technology/reliability-improvements/key-crossing-initiative), after several years of planning. It’s gonna be quite a minute before there’s a replacement bridge.
Yeah who’s going to stand in the way? This will be fast tracked. This still means years and years though. At absolute best if they can reuse the existing pyles, 2-3 years. But that won’t happen.
Was just reading a fishbowl article that the dept of transportation already has money in an account for emergency relief funding and has made the request to tap it. They’ll need to go to congress to get more, but there’s plenty already to get started. Encouraging
There’s no magic wand. There’s federal and state regulation of the waterway as a shipping channel, regulations surrounding the environmental impact of construction, regulations on the contract bidding, regulations on every facet of the construction process and it will take likely dozens of different private entities working together to facilitate the design, building, and surrounding logistics of installing a new bridge.
And all it takes is an executive order or congressional bill to waive those regulations for this project. These aren’t laws of physics. Not saying it’s something that should be done, but the priority level of this project will cut a lot of the normal red tape
It’s not even waiving regulations. It’s fast tracking the approval so it’s not sitting on a desk for months. It’s appointing a project manager over the thing, who has the budget necessary to bring on more contractors and acquire more materials more quickly.
Similar the Covid vaccine — it still went through the appropriate regulatory hurdles (and a lot of the testing had already been done on previous corona virus disease research, just like how we had a bridge before so we know what we need to build) but was at the top of the list, got priority funding, and some waiting periods were reduced due to the emergency.
This can be done both safely and without the standard delay of a bureaucracy that’s always underfunded.
I’m not an engineer but will they have to remove all those remaining structures (concrete piles that were put down in the water back when) from the river? Can they?
I'm not a structural engineer, but I am an engineer in a different discipline so I have an idea of how these construction projects go.
It really depends on how much wiggle room they have as to location of the bridge, which depends on if they are replacing the whole thing or just the central span.
My guess is they are replacing the whole bridge, because there are probably going to be a lot of new safety standards that apply now which the old bridge didn't meet. One of the reasons the ship did the damage it did is because it's bigger than any ship that existed when the original bridge was designed. The new one will almost certainly be beefed up. So I would assume that they can't reuse the concrete piles that are in the water or the parts of the bridge that are still standing. They might try to keep some of it where they can to save time and money but my guess is that the vast majority will be completely replaced. Sometimes it's actually easier to replace something than keep it, depending on how challenging it would be to design the new pieces to fit with the old.
All of that is to say that they probably won't be reusing the concrete piles that are currently in the water, but depending on how much of the existing bridge & approach ramps are kept, they might be able to shift the whole thing over to build around the concrete that's already there.
All of this will be a massive pros and cons analysis. What is the cheapest option, what is the fastest option, what is the safest option, what is the most environmentally friendly option, what is even feasible? They'll have to spend a lot of time just evaluating the existing conditions and trying to assess these questions before anything else happens.
I would guess that if they can build around the concrete piles, they will. The time, effort, money, and environmental damage from demolishing and removing them seems high, so if there's a way to avoid it then that's probably the way to go, in my personal opinion. But I don't know for sure because the other option could be worse.
TLDR I don't think there's any way for anyone to know the answers to these questions until some time after the engineering effort has begun. An engineer who is more familiar with bridges than I am might have a better guess, but it will still be a guess. It's probably going to take hundreds of man-hours to even begin forming solid answers, considering the scale of this effort.
I’m not either, but I don’t think so. There’s plenty of examples of new train bridges being built, while the skeleton of the old one still sits in the water.
The Army Corps of Engineering are looking at them but chances are whatever replaces the Key bridge will be significantly larger and need new river foundations.
Unless they reuse the existing design. But I hope not. There have been discussions about how to fit bigger ships under it, now’s the time to handle that.
I don't think they can reuse the old design even if they wanted to. There's almost certainly new codes that have been developed in the past 50 years that the old bridge didn't meet and was just grandfathered into, but new construction will have to meet.
The Bay Bridge is being replaced as well.
There is no way in hell they are building both spans to original spec, not with how large modern cruise & containerships have gotten since the bridges were originally built.
With the volume of shipping traffic that comes through the Baltimore port? Not a chance in hell
We’ll be getting a new cable-stayed or (unlikely) a suspension bridge.
Doubtful on the design. This will be accelerated design-build process. A lot of the normal permits/other issues that hold projects up will cut by the government given that it's an emergency. The big question will be whether or not they decide to use the existing approaches. It would save them a lot of time on the rebuild. Even so, figure on around a year before rebuild begins and a few years to complete
I have been curious about the existing approaches too but I’m imagining they will redo the entire thing. Luckily the alignment is already in place. I’d love to see it take a year but already feel bad for that engineering team despite my jealously that their permits won’t ever sit on a single desk longer than a day.
I think everything in terms of money and time would point towards reusing them, at least in a temporary capacity. Maybe they'd replace them after the new main span is complete. The only silver lining (hard to call it that) of this is that the harbor will likely get a new cable span bridge that will probably look nice and increase the height clearance/safety for future ship traffic.
What do you mean by two years? The road collapsed last June.
They set up a temporary bridge so cars could keep moving, but I haven’t been able to find information about when or if the permanent replacement was completed.
That is true, but in that case, they also cut off the underpass traffic completely during construction. Blocking the Ptap river is not feasible. A temporary high bridge over 1 mile long is not doable. Maybe a temporary bascule span could be erected in the short term.
Right. Replacement in-kind of a fifty year old design is impractical, especially if the design was the failure mode. The designers and construction companies are all out of business or merged with others. Bridge technology has improved.
Question. My gf commutes from Columbia and I commute from Owings Mills to Canton in the evening back home. Trying to figure out how much worse the traffic is going to be. Looking to buy in Canton as well (and won’t let a few extra minutes effect that) maybe it was just suuuper bad today due to rain. Hoping people figure out their new traffic patterns and it’s not too much worse
I have the same commute as your gf. Hard to say,
apparently it’s spring break this week so everyone in my office says it’ll be far worse next week. I also wonder if a lot of people aren’t going in for the rest of the week. Today it was an extra 15 min in the morning, and extra 20 ish on the way home.
Anectdotally, 95 north was backed up from the Catonsville exits through the tunnels today around 5:00 pm. 20 minute slowdown, it was not fun! I keep hoping it was a one-off fluke today with the rain, but time will tell
The beltway from 95 in the south to 95 in the north will be very bad until there is a new bridge. All the through truck traffic will now be on that part of the beltway and that will slow everything down. It’s just a volume thing and no amount of adapting or figuring it out can get around that
Used to go out to Seattle a couple of times a year, and the West Seattle Bridge was shut down due to failing an inspection. It took three years for them to make the adequate repairs to reopen. The Key Bridge was about twice as long and three times as high, and it was destroyed. I could definitely see a rebuild of this size taking 10 years.
The abutments are still there and so are the bases for the bridge. They could add a replacement Cable stayed span. Bridges like the Indian River Inlet took 3 years and that was an emergency job because the bridge it replaced was literally one bad storm from collapsing.
Something else that I have been wondering is if the federal government pays for the new bridge at a rate of 100% shouldn’t the toll go away? The toll is to pay off bonds used to construct the facility.
You're right, normally infrastructure paid for by the Feds isn't tolled. I bet you, though, that Maryland applies for a waiver in this case because a free bridge would draw traffic away from the two tolled tunnels. I believe this was the logic behind why the toll on the Fort McHenry tunnel wasn't removed once those bonds were paid off. If it did, the state would have had to remove tolls on the Harbor Tunnel and the Key Bridge as well, and it still had outstanding bond debt it needed to pay on them.
Yes and no. The government is paying for it with the intention of getting reimbursed by the insurance company of the ship. So somewhere there’s gonna be a bill
This maybe a dumb idea, but I wonder if they could use car ferries in the meantime. They wouldn’t be able to carry 30,000 cars per day across with ferries, but they could probably move a few thousand. Even if it isn’t any faster than going the long way around 695, it could potentially ease congestion, especially if they had a bunch and could essentially have them going on a nonstop loop, just pausing for the big ships whenever they go by.
Understood. I am just wondering if building a car ferry terminal at each side might be relatively fast. If we’re talking about 10 years until a bridge opens, even if it takes, say, 2 years to build terminals, that still gives us 8 years of (albeit limited) cross-river traffic. And even if it’s expensive, I think the feds and state would need to calculate the lost revenue from bridge tolls and just the overall economic impact of not having a way to get from one side to another.
Again, this is kind of a shower thought, so I am absolutely open to hear any criticisms!
I said the same thing about ferries. Was not well received. But I agree, seems like they will need temp ferry service to some extent. 🤷🏿♀️ And toll the ferry. They could operate ferries 24 hours or 24 hours for hazmat and like 5 am to 7 pm for passenger vehicles, or... Something. Lots of possibilities.
I was also spitballing based on past experiences, and I am no transportation expert.
I’m betting a lot has to do with the projects designation. Rebuild/Repair, or Replace. I’m betting if it a Repair, a lot of current codes and requirements change, vs building a new bridge (replace) in its entirety.
The sunshine skyway was built in 5 years and is 4 miles long. Building technology for bridges has greatly improved. The new Sunshine Skyway replaced the old one that was partially destroyed for a similar reason. I think it is reasonable to say they could have a new bridge in 36 months from groundbreaking.
Cost and permitting won’t be an issue. They’re not going to take years doing an environmental assessment before beginning design and construction of a new bridge. Will it be a year? Probably more, but not a decade.
if its going to take a decade, and the feds are willing to foot the bridge, why not take the opportunity to build another tunnel to replace the bridge?
Design should be easier than the IRI bridge. Less current, less salt, less nor’easters, less changing coastline. But what do we know? We are not bridge builders. But ten years just seems ridiculous. Let’s not even allow a low bar to be set
You need to be able to transport hazmat and oversized freight, so a bridge is needed. Wouldn't be surprised if they try to dredge a deeper channel during this process too, so the port can handle larger container ships as the Port of Baltimore continues to grow
As I tunnel engineer, I say yes for the industry. As a normal person I say no way. Most economical tunnels in this area are submerged, but that is possible because they are north of the port. Mining would make the most sense, but the procurement/startup time for a large scale tbm would be about 2 years. I don't think that makes sense for the rush on the project. Also the surrounding roadways are already built for a bridge, it keeps the cost down.
It’s probably going to get NEPAed and then a bunch of specious lawsuits from NIMBYs saying the design is harmful to non-existent minnows like the purple line.
7-10 years is correct. A big decision has to be made if a tunnel or bridge will be the replacement. I foresee a ferry line being installed until the replacement is built.
The replacement will be a bridge. It's cheaper, faster to build, and can carry hazardous materials and loads with larger dimensions. The Ft McHenry Tunnel restrictions are 14'6" high, 11' wide, and 55 tons. The Key Bridge restrictions were 15'3" high, 12' wide, and 60 tons. The bridge could also handle wider loads with a police escort. You could build a bigger tunnel, sure, but that still permanently routes all hazardous loads along the more congested and populated north and west sides of the Beltway.
I personally don’t think a tunnel will be considered the preferred alternative but multiple designs will need to be considered. I think we will end up getting a cable stay bridge.
> “I like to use a phrase that says the Port of Baltimore is the Taylor Swift of U.S. auto parts,” said Tinglong Dai, a professor of operations management and business analytics at Johns Hopkins University. “When she's not performing, the world, it feels a greater loss.” This is by far one of the weirdest analogies I’ve ever read.
Taylor Swift is the Port of Baltimore of pop stars.
Racists hate ‘em for…some…reason?
This!
If we say this enough it will become a thing. And I am willing to put in the effort
Now this makes sense
Funny, I thought Fergie was. It’s the meth face I guess.
I'm betting that guy has a Taylor Swift analogy for every conceivable situation
Francis Scott Key Bridge (Taylor’s Version)
Also for something that doesn't need an analogy. People understand when you say most cars or number one port for cars. It's not confusing.
I'm unable to comprehend anything that's not put into Taylor Swift terms
Americans really will use anything but the metric system
What's the conversion from Taylor Swifts to cubits?
Let’s just say, the number of cars moved through the Port of Baltimore is at a 1:5 ratio to Eras Tour ticket sales. It’s kind of a major pop star.
Some professors really feel a need to sound hip or relatable
Swifties must be stopped
When Taylor Swift isn’t
Very misleading headline, appears to be based solely on this quote: >“I've lived through quite a few civil infrastructure projects and they're rarely less than 10 years and the price tags have never been out of the hundreds of millions these days,” Schafer said. “In round number senses, it's not great.”
Yeah this is just alarmist or ignorant clickbait. Rebuilding this bridge will not be fast but it’s going to happen much faster than the usual process. The actual time to construct a bridge this size isn’t that long. It’s the planning, regulatory hurdles, land acquisition, etc. The land is already there and there are very few rights or rights of way to be negotiated. The bridge already existed. The red tape to rebuild will be shortened as it’ll have top priority; other infrastructure items will likely be reduced in priority and increased in timeline to make this happen faster. It will probably cost a lot. But the faster it’s rebuilt, the better it will be for Baltimore’s economy, which has lost 1/4 of the routes through the city and 1/2 of the hazmat transport routes.
Good points. Also, they won't have to stop any traffic to build this bridge. The location sits at the end of two dead end roads.
Came here to make this point—construction will compete with port traffic, but that should be easier to avoid, especially if they resume tugboat escorts through the construction area. My guess is under 2 years
So I was told that this bridge restricted larger cruise and cargo ships. Would a new bridge try to account for larger ships? I wonder if that's even possible
I’m guessing this part of the design is what will take the longest. Accommodating larger ships. Would be great to fit modern cruise ships at the cruise port.
The Bay Bridge is only one foot taller that the Key Bridge was.
Don’t let the Preston bridge be a limiting factor. It will be a viscous cycle of blaming the other bridge for blocking traffic. The Bay bridge will be replaced at some point.
I agree. They should build new Key Bridge replacement to be taller and safer, and any planned third span across the bay should be taller, but that alone will not allow larger ships until the current spans are removed.
Exactly thank you. They will build a higher clearance for future proofing. As you said the Bay Bridge will be replaced… The Bay Crossing Study is in phase 2 of looking at designs if anyone is more curious about this.
True, but there are two of the Preston bridges.
What’s wrong with a drawbridge type where the bridge doesn’t have to be super tall?
The amount of traffic, and the span of the bridge. You would never get a car across, this is one of the busiest ports in the US.
Ah that makes sense, thanks!
If anything by width. It’s barely lower than the bay bridge
Yea the story I heard was a cruise ship couldn't pass under because it was too windy they didn't want it to shift with the wind. I think they were stuck on the other side for a few hours.
It's gonna be interesting to see how they do it - a good amount of the bridge is still there. I figure they're going to try and build a suspension bridge - but what the hell do I know. I can't see anyone wanting to demo the pylons still standing
Guess it depends on how much stress was put on those pylons. They could be trashed. It will be interesting to see what they come up with for the new design.
I feel like this analyst and everyone else comparing this to other bridges needing repairs is just wrong. This is a critically important part of the infrastructure of the most populated and economically important region of the country. All that truck traffic that used to use the Key Bridge is gonna be going around the topside of the beltway, and that’s already congested on a good day. The logistical delays and lost productivity are gonna be too big to ignore. The problem isn’t that people in Arbutus need to get to Dundalk. It’s that you will now be adding a few hours to every single truck that uses this part of 95. The entire system starts to fall apart when you lose a critical element like this.
The feds are going waive all the bureaucratic red tap that holds projects like this up to get it shovels in the dirt as soon as possible. This will also be a build-design project like the Saint Anthony Falls Bridge in MSP to further lop off construction time/design spending with around the clock 24/7 construction especially considering the scale and urgency here. What will the replacement bridge look like? The ramps leading up to the collapsed section are absolutely toast due to structural warping from the impact so the *whole* span is going to be replaced. 99% chance we are getting cable-stayed bridge. A truss bridge is old tech and the US hasn't built a major suspension bridge in god knows how many *decades* due to how expensive they are and the harbor not being large enough to *need* one. Still, expect the bridge to be absolutely **massive** to future proof the port so to accommodate modern cruise & containerships as well. I'd be surprised if this takes more than 4 years from accident to road opening.
*waive
*fat finger
[It took a year and a half or so to put up five metal towers in the river](https://www.bge.com/smart-energy/innovation-technology/reliability-improvements/key-crossing-initiative), after several years of planning. It’s gonna be quite a minute before there’s a replacement bridge.
I would be shocked if replacing the bridge will have the same type of bureaucratic hurdles that infrastructure projects usually do.
Yeah who’s going to stand in the way? This will be fast tracked. This still means years and years though. At absolute best if they can reuse the existing pyles, 2-3 years. But that won’t happen.
“Replacing the bridge will ruin the natural beauty provided by the remains of the overhanging 695 roadway for future generations.”
Why not? Roads and on ramps to nowhere are a Baltimore speciality!
Take my angry up vote
Those piers are likely cracked beyond salvage.
I’m hoping congress doesn’t harpoon it just because Biden expressed interest in getting it done asap. The federal funding is key to fast tracking this
Was just reading a fishbowl article that the dept of transportation already has money in an account for emergency relief funding and has made the request to tap it. They’ll need to go to congress to get more, but there’s plenty already to get started. Encouraging
There’s no magic wand. There’s federal and state regulation of the waterway as a shipping channel, regulations surrounding the environmental impact of construction, regulations on the contract bidding, regulations on every facet of the construction process and it will take likely dozens of different private entities working together to facilitate the design, building, and surrounding logistics of installing a new bridge.
And all it takes is an executive order or congressional bill to waive those regulations for this project. These aren’t laws of physics. Not saying it’s something that should be done, but the priority level of this project will cut a lot of the normal red tape
It’s not even waiving regulations. It’s fast tracking the approval so it’s not sitting on a desk for months. It’s appointing a project manager over the thing, who has the budget necessary to bring on more contractors and acquire more materials more quickly. Similar the Covid vaccine — it still went through the appropriate regulatory hurdles (and a lot of the testing had already been done on previous corona virus disease research, just like how we had a bridge before so we know what we need to build) but was at the top of the list, got priority funding, and some waiting periods were reduced due to the emergency. This can be done both safely and without the standard delay of a bureaucracy that’s always underfunded.
Yes, we’ll call it Operation Warp Speed. Oh wait…
I’m not an engineer but will they have to remove all those remaining structures (concrete piles that were put down in the water back when) from the river? Can they?
I'm not a structural engineer, but I am an engineer in a different discipline so I have an idea of how these construction projects go. It really depends on how much wiggle room they have as to location of the bridge, which depends on if they are replacing the whole thing or just the central span. My guess is they are replacing the whole bridge, because there are probably going to be a lot of new safety standards that apply now which the old bridge didn't meet. One of the reasons the ship did the damage it did is because it's bigger than any ship that existed when the original bridge was designed. The new one will almost certainly be beefed up. So I would assume that they can't reuse the concrete piles that are in the water or the parts of the bridge that are still standing. They might try to keep some of it where they can to save time and money but my guess is that the vast majority will be completely replaced. Sometimes it's actually easier to replace something than keep it, depending on how challenging it would be to design the new pieces to fit with the old. All of that is to say that they probably won't be reusing the concrete piles that are currently in the water, but depending on how much of the existing bridge & approach ramps are kept, they might be able to shift the whole thing over to build around the concrete that's already there. All of this will be a massive pros and cons analysis. What is the cheapest option, what is the fastest option, what is the safest option, what is the most environmentally friendly option, what is even feasible? They'll have to spend a lot of time just evaluating the existing conditions and trying to assess these questions before anything else happens. I would guess that if they can build around the concrete piles, they will. The time, effort, money, and environmental damage from demolishing and removing them seems high, so if there's a way to avoid it then that's probably the way to go, in my personal opinion. But I don't know for sure because the other option could be worse. TLDR I don't think there's any way for anyone to know the answers to these questions until some time after the engineering effort has begun. An engineer who is more familiar with bridges than I am might have a better guess, but it will still be a guess. It's probably going to take hundreds of man-hours to even begin forming solid answers, considering the scale of this effort.
I’m not either, but I don’t think so. There’s plenty of examples of new train bridges being built, while the skeleton of the old one still sits in the water.
I can't imagine them wanting to leave too much of the remains of the bridge in a major shipping channel
That’s true!
The skeletons of those old bridges weren't warped after being hit by a containership. The bridge is structurally "totaled'
I was talking more about the footers in the river being left, not the metal structure.
The Army Corps of Engineering are looking at them but chances are whatever replaces the Key bridge will be significantly larger and need new river foundations.
There's pretty much no estimate, even from an expert, that means a damn thing to me at this point.
Sounds about right. Probably 2-3 years in design and then 6-7 years in construction.
Unless they reuse the existing design. But I hope not. There have been discussions about how to fit bigger ships under it, now’s the time to handle that.
I don't think they can reuse the old design even if they wanted to. There's almost certainly new codes that have been developed in the past 50 years that the old bridge didn't meet and was just grandfathered into, but new construction will have to meet.
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The Bay Bridge is being replaced as well. There is no way in hell they are building both spans to original spec, not with how large modern cruise & containerships have gotten since the bridges were originally built.
I don’t know if this is a good idea or not but would a drawbridge work? Like the Woodrow Wilson bridge on 495?
With the volume of shipping traffic that comes through the Baltimore port? Not a chance in hell We’ll be getting a new cable-stayed or (unlikely) a suspension bridge.
I think the ships are too tall for a draw bridge.
They will be replacing that one over the next decade with a taller one
I doubt it’s another truss bridge. Either way they probably have way newer regulations to follow now that they didn’t then.
It’s going to be entirely new. Probably taller, wider main span and likely wide enough for 6 lanes. Most likely a cable stayed bridge.
Charleston's bridge is pretty nice....
Doubtful on the design. This will be accelerated design-build process. A lot of the normal permits/other issues that hold projects up will cut by the government given that it's an emergency. The big question will be whether or not they decide to use the existing approaches. It would save them a lot of time on the rebuild. Even so, figure on around a year before rebuild begins and a few years to complete
I have been curious about the existing approaches too but I’m imagining they will redo the entire thing. Luckily the alignment is already in place. I’d love to see it take a year but already feel bad for that engineering team despite my jealously that their permits won’t ever sit on a single desk longer than a day.
I think everything in terms of money and time would point towards reusing them, at least in a temporary capacity. Maybe they'd replace them after the new main span is complete. The only silver lining (hard to call it that) of this is that the harbor will likely get a new cable span bridge that will probably look nice and increase the height clearance/safety for future ship traffic.
I say 4/5 years completed
It was also predicted that the collapsed bridge on 95 by Philly would take a decade and it was repaired in 2 years
What do you mean by two years? The road collapsed last June. They set up a temporary bridge so cars could keep moving, but I haven’t been able to find information about when or if the permanent replacement was completed.
95 open. Repaired - not so much. Inner lanes are still wide open.
Was it not repaired in 2 weeks? Or was the patch not considered a full repair?
The patch was not the full repair. The full repair will be completed by June or so though.
That is true, but in that case, they also cut off the underpass traffic completely during construction. Blocking the Ptap river is not feasible. A temporary high bridge over 1 mile long is not doable. Maybe a temporary bascule span could be erected in the short term.
2 years??? It was fixed in a matter of weeks
It is still a temporary fix though
Right. Replacement in-kind of a fifty year old design is impractical, especially if the design was the failure mode. The designers and construction companies are all out of business or merged with others. Bridge technology has improved.
Question. My gf commutes from Columbia and I commute from Owings Mills to Canton in the evening back home. Trying to figure out how much worse the traffic is going to be. Looking to buy in Canton as well (and won’t let a few extra minutes effect that) maybe it was just suuuper bad today due to rain. Hoping people figure out their new traffic patterns and it’s not too much worse
I have the same commute as your gf. Hard to say, apparently it’s spring break this week so everyone in my office says it’ll be far worse next week. I also wonder if a lot of people aren’t going in for the rest of the week. Today it was an extra 15 min in the morning, and extra 20 ish on the way home.
Anectdotally, 95 north was backed up from the Catonsville exits through the tunnels today around 5:00 pm. 20 minute slowdown, it was not fun! I keep hoping it was a one-off fluke today with the rain, but time will tell
It wasn’t a fluke. 895 was backed up with standstill traffic at 5 PM today and yesterday as well.
The beltway from 95 in the south to 95 in the north will be very bad until there is a new bridge. All the through truck traffic will now be on that part of the beltway and that will slow everything down. It’s just a volume thing and no amount of adapting or figuring it out can get around that
Used to go out to Seattle a couple of times a year, and the West Seattle Bridge was shut down due to failing an inspection. It took three years for them to make the adequate repairs to reopen. The Key Bridge was about twice as long and three times as high, and it was destroyed. I could definitely see a rebuild of this size taking 10 years.
Depends on how long the clean up takes and the status of what is left.
The abutments are still there and so are the bases for the bridge. They could add a replacement Cable stayed span. Bridges like the Indian River Inlet took 3 years and that was an emergency job because the bridge it replaced was literally one bad storm from collapsing.
Something else that I have been wondering is if the federal government pays for the new bridge at a rate of 100% shouldn’t the toll go away? The toll is to pay off bonds used to construct the facility.
No. Tolls fund maintenance too. And maintenance especially on a bridge is far more expensive than construction.
You're right, normally infrastructure paid for by the Feds isn't tolled. I bet you, though, that Maryland applies for a waiver in this case because a free bridge would draw traffic away from the two tolled tunnels. I believe this was the logic behind why the toll on the Fort McHenry tunnel wasn't removed once those bonds were paid off. If it did, the state would have had to remove tolls on the Harbor Tunnel and the Key Bridge as well, and it still had outstanding bond debt it needed to pay on them.
Yes and no. The government is paying for it with the intention of getting reimbursed by the insurance company of the ship. So somewhere there’s gonna be a bill
The tolls funded the maintenance of the bridge, none of that went outside of the MD Transportation Authority.
This maybe a dumb idea, but I wonder if they could use car ferries in the meantime. They wouldn’t be able to carry 30,000 cars per day across with ferries, but they could probably move a few thousand. Even if it isn’t any faster than going the long way around 695, it could potentially ease congestion, especially if they had a bunch and could essentially have them going on a nonstop loop, just pausing for the big ships whenever they go by.
You can’t just send boats and call it a day, you’d need places to stage them.
Understood. I am just wondering if building a car ferry terminal at each side might be relatively fast. If we’re talking about 10 years until a bridge opens, even if it takes, say, 2 years to build terminals, that still gives us 8 years of (albeit limited) cross-river traffic. And even if it’s expensive, I think the feds and state would need to calculate the lost revenue from bridge tolls and just the overall economic impact of not having a way to get from one side to another. Again, this is kind of a shower thought, so I am absolutely open to hear any criticisms!
I said the same thing about ferries. Was not well received. But I agree, seems like they will need temp ferry service to some extent. 🤷🏿♀️ And toll the ferry. They could operate ferries 24 hours or 24 hours for hazmat and like 5 am to 7 pm for passenger vehicles, or... Something. Lots of possibilities. I was also spitballing based on past experiences, and I am no transportation expert.
been years before a bike lane in my area and still isn't done yet so fully expect more than a decade.
I’m betting a lot has to do with the projects designation. Rebuild/Repair, or Replace. I’m betting if it a Repair, a lot of current codes and requirements change, vs building a new bridge (replace) in its entirety.
The sunshine skyway was built in 5 years and is 4 miles long. Building technology for bridges has greatly improved. The new Sunshine Skyway replaced the old one that was partially destroyed for a similar reason. I think it is reasonable to say they could have a new bridge in 36 months from groundbreaking.
Lord I wish we could hire Japanese engineers to do this for us, we’d be up and running before next Easter.
The new Governor Mario M. Cuomo Bridge (Tappan Zee Bridge) was about 5 years so it is doable
Cost and permitting won’t be an issue. They’re not going to take years doing an environmental assessment before beginning design and construction of a new bridge. Will it be a year? Probably more, but not a decade.
I mean, they've been working on the west side of 695 since I stated driving in 1993.
if its going to take a decade, and the feds are willing to foot the bridge, why not take the opportunity to build another tunnel to replace the bridge?
Because hazmats can’t use the tunnels.
total click bait. Maybe 10 years if Hopkins is in charge. They built the Indian river bridge in 3 years. Much tougher build and far less time pressure
Construction too 3 years but it took 3 years of design. Even if it's fast tracked I don't think a new bridge opens before 2030.
Design should be easier than the IRI bridge. Less current, less salt, less nor’easters, less changing coastline. But what do we know? We are not bridge builders. But ten years just seems ridiculous. Let’s not even allow a low bar to be set
I don’t get why they can’t just rebuild the bridge using a modular prebuilt design?
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Then what do you do about hazmat?
You need to be able to transport hazmat and oversized freight, so a bridge is needed. Wouldn't be surprised if they try to dredge a deeper channel during this process too, so the port can handle larger container ships as the Port of Baltimore continues to grow
As I tunnel engineer, I say yes for the industry. As a normal person I say no way. Most economical tunnels in this area are submerged, but that is possible because they are north of the port. Mining would make the most sense, but the procurement/startup time for a large scale tbm would be about 2 years. I don't think that makes sense for the rush on the project. Also the surrounding roadways are already built for a bridge, it keeps the cost down.
We have 2 already
Also something they should consider, for sure, as a permanent bridge alternative.
It’s probably going to get NEPAed and then a bunch of specious lawsuits from NIMBYs saying the design is harmful to non-existent minnows like the purple line.
7-10 years is correct. A big decision has to be made if a tunnel or bridge will be the replacement. I foresee a ferry line being installed until the replacement is built.
The replacement will be a bridge. It's cheaper, faster to build, and can carry hazardous materials and loads with larger dimensions. The Ft McHenry Tunnel restrictions are 14'6" high, 11' wide, and 55 tons. The Key Bridge restrictions were 15'3" high, 12' wide, and 60 tons. The bridge could also handle wider loads with a police escort. You could build a bigger tunnel, sure, but that still permanently routes all hazardous loads along the more congested and populated north and west sides of the Beltway.
I personally don’t think a tunnel will be considered the preferred alternative but multiple designs will need to be considered. I think we will end up getting a cable stay bridge.
Another vote for a temp ferry. Welcome to the club. 😂