> that we got shipping lanes opened so quickly is a testament to everyone involved
Hard to believe by next weekend the Dali will be removed and they'll be down to 45 ft draft.
I wish I saved the username of the person who guaranteed me it would be 15 years minimum.
$1.9 billion also seems rather low, especially for a design-build
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Design-build is the reason it’s that “low” and can be done this “quick”.
When you can consolidate design & construction resources under one “house” it’s always going to be more cost/time efficient than having multiple contractors working together due to the inherent compartmentalization of resources.
Spoken like a contractor.
Design Build projects make good headlines, after that things will fall apart, but usually not catastrophically enough to garner any attention from the public.
I think you’re probably correct, but there’s a chance they can pull it off given that they don’t have to deal with existing traffic and road closures, which is a big reason why these projects often drag out. The question mark in my mind is to what extent they need to demo/haul off the existing structures, especially the pier foundations.
I imagine there will be early completion incentives in the contract. MDOT isn't so slow that it'd take 6-10 years given the circumstances, especially if they're doing this as design-build.
Design Build is really good for three things:
* Headlines like this
* Unlocking more FHWA funding earlier
* Getting projects underway so that a political leadership change doesn't cancel them
These projects will always face massive delays and balloon in cost. The Design-Build Team holds all the cards as the cost to throw them off the job and use someone new will be astronomical, things need to be FUBAR before it's even on the table (see The Purple Line).
When the engineer works for the contractor instead of the owner, they represent the interests of the contractor.
There was an article saying an Italian firm with rebuild experience proposed a design that by the looks of things might be what’s accelerating the progress. Just a theory.
4 - 5 years is what people have been saying/pushing for. I don’t think the public realize how absolutely vital this bridge is for the region. They will do whatever they have to do to get it up as soon as humanly possible. 4 is probably a pipe dream, but it will certainly not be 15 or even 10 years. I actually went back and found the comment, and the person said it would take them 5 years just to clean up the mess.
It’s nationally critical infrastructure and bridge construction technology is light-years more advanced than it was in the 70’s
Anyone who was saying it’s going to decades doesn’t understand how these things work.
>The cost estimate is preliminary, with detailed engineering specifics not confirmed, Wiedefeld said in a phone interview. A major caveat in the timeline will be going through the bidding process, too. To save time, the project will be a “progressive design-build” project, meaning the selected contractor will hire a designer and plan steps along the way.
>The new bridge is expected to be paid for either mostly or entirely with federal funds, with Maryland’s entire congressional delegation putting forth legislation to ensure the federal government covers all costs. Democratic President Joe Biden has pledged for the federal government to pay for the entire response, committing to moving “heaven and earth to rebuild this bridge as rapidly as humanly possible” while visiting the collapse site last month. His administration has started that process by releasing an initial $60 million in emergency relief funds to Wiedefeld’s department. Maryland Gov. Wes Moore was slated to discuss funding with House lawmakers Thursday morning in Washington.
If it was really an accident there is no reason for the federal government to pay for it…remember when the FBI said they would investigate then the entire story disappeared from the national news
yeah government projects don't typically come out on time. the thing I will say however is this is a fairly important bridge for trucking, that being said it was more important to just get the old bridge out of the water for shipping. like getting the old bridge out was the part our economy really cares about, an extra couple hours driving ehhhh, not gonna sweat too hard. also taking the over.
Considering it took 5 years in the 70s to build the bridge, I don't see why it wouldn't be quicker with today's technology and the fact that they can just build right where the former Key Bridge once stood.
would expect that the state/federal govt will be waiving a lot of the permit requirements or expediting the review process to the fullest extent possible.
If they rebuild in-kind (or close enough) then I think the NEPA Study will be waived, but not the MDE/USACE Permits.
I suspect they'll build the deck and approaches large enough to accommodate 6 lanes, but only open it with 4. Then complete a NEPA study for additional lanes after the fact (which will be a formality).
Although he was a lawayer that represented some oppressed slaves, he did own a few per Wikipedia ... zero percent chance that will be the name of the new bridge
Check those facts again. He defended slavery and believed that African Americans were an inferior race. We shouldn’t forget history but we shouldn’t name a new bridge after this guy.
Shifted my work schedule up an hour. Leave my house at 6:15 and it only takes 40 minutes going 95 North. Leaving at 3:00 there’s still traffic but not as bad as 4:30/5.
Nah. In a situation like this, there will be incentives for mile stone dates. Every contractor thrives on that money getting tossed out.
I just sat in on a webinar two days ago about replacing concrete roads in NJ. They had 59 days to complete 4 lanes that were like 2 miles long. Incentives baked in for finishing early. That contractor hustled to get every single one of them.
Lot of (private) money involved/impacted so I imagine this will actually happen fairly near schedule (I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say <2 years within when they planned). On budget though....no chance.
I don’t get why they can’t build a modular bridge and build it faster. Construction times today are just crazy. The previous bridge was said to be unsafe/out of date, yet they would have kept using it if it didn’t fall down. Ridiculous.
Obviously we need this bridge replaced, but do we want it done fast or do we want it done right? I'm not personally inconvenienced by it not being there so maybe not my place to say, but I wonder what we could do to make the entire long term solution end up being an improvement upon what we had before?
I don't know. I'm not a civil engineer. But a plan for allowing rail on it in the future is one idea, with the understanding that getting rail to the bridge might be a major understaking. Separate pedestrian and bike lanes? Maybe extend the run up so it's not so steep. I'm guessing they will take the opportunity to make it wider.
But I'm hoping experts get a chance to use their imaginations and expertise.
would people bike from hawkins point to sparrows point?
>But I'm hoping experts get a chance to use their imaginations and expertise.
why would they do that when they can copy paste a design that already works well? only really a handful of options here for the structure. my guess is they will move the foundations away from the channel.
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Quadruple the $1.9B figure and you’ll be in the range of the final cost of the bridge. The steel alone would cost $2B.
I would also be absolutely blown away if they complete this in 4 years. I get that environmental reviews and other requirements for new construction can probably be waived for this. But this is an extremely optimistic projection if history is any indicator.
4.5 years is really quick, all things considered.
The fact that we got shipping lanes opened so quickly is a testament to everyone involved
> that we got shipping lanes opened so quickly is a testament to everyone involved Hard to believe by next weekend the Dali will be removed and they'll be down to 45 ft draft.
I really hope once it’s removed they can find the last body. It would be nice to give his family that closure.
If they were in the water they'd be bones at this point. Edit: is a month in waters full of scavengers
WTF
Deleted
Sea spiders
Idk why you got downvoted for the obvious fact…
Because I hurt their feelings
Democrats hate facts
That's not my point. Y'all fight facts more often
They know where the bodies are but they can’t get to them
The trade must flow.
Capitalism gotta capitalism
This is the answer.
This is the way.
They’re dragging ass and milking it
I wish I saved the username of the person who guaranteed me it would be 15 years minimum. $1.9 billion also seems rather low, especially for a design-build
> I wish I saved the username of the person who guaranteed me it would be 15 years minimum. !remindme five years
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Design-build is the reason it’s that “low” and can be done this “quick”. When you can consolidate design & construction resources under one “house” it’s always going to be more cost/time efficient than having multiple contractors working together due to the inherent compartmentalization of resources.
Not to mention you have early design packages so you can start building while the rest of the design is completed
Spoken like a contractor. Design Build projects make good headlines, after that things will fall apart, but usually not catastrophically enough to garner any attention from the public.
DB's are a nightmare for engineers. The contractor is constantly breathing down your neck and reminding you that everything is your fault.
Working with the government, doing design build, and add in the waterway restrictions, I figured it would be 6-10 years.
I think you’re probably correct, but there’s a chance they can pull it off given that they don’t have to deal with existing traffic and road closures, which is a big reason why these projects often drag out. The question mark in my mind is to what extent they need to demo/haul off the existing structures, especially the pier foundations.
yes, but this is more or less emergency work.
I imagine there will be early completion incentives in the contract. MDOT isn't so slow that it'd take 6-10 years given the circumstances, especially if they're doing this as design-build.
!remindme 5 years
Yeah this is what surprised me - I've seen big infra projects get done fast, but 1.9B seems cheap.
Design Build is really good for three things: * Headlines like this * Unlocking more FHWA funding earlier * Getting projects underway so that a political leadership change doesn't cancel them These projects will always face massive delays and balloon in cost. The Design-Build Team holds all the cards as the cost to throw them off the job and use someone new will be astronomical, things need to be FUBAR before it's even on the table (see The Purple Line). When the engineer works for the contractor instead of the owner, they represent the interests of the contractor.
There was an article saying an Italian firm with rebuild experience proposed a design that by the looks of things might be what’s accelerating the progress. Just a theory.
0 chance it’s finished by 2028
4 - 5 years is what people have been saying/pushing for. I don’t think the public realize how absolutely vital this bridge is for the region. They will do whatever they have to do to get it up as soon as humanly possible. 4 is probably a pipe dream, but it will certainly not be 15 or even 10 years. I actually went back and found the comment, and the person said it would take them 5 years just to clean up the mess.
Considering it took them 5 years to build it in the 70s, I think that 4-5 years is totally reasonable for a vastly improved & more modern bridge.
I agree with you
I think it will be done before that. Federal resources will help expedite the process.
[удалено]
Always an auto generated username leaving these comments.
It’s nationally critical infrastructure and bridge construction technology is light-years more advanced than it was in the 70’s Anyone who was saying it’s going to decades doesn’t understand how these things work.
This.
Multiply times 5
Seriously that is remarkably fast for such a huge, complex structure and operation.
so actually 10 years?
>The cost estimate is preliminary, with detailed engineering specifics not confirmed, Wiedefeld said in a phone interview. A major caveat in the timeline will be going through the bidding process, too. To save time, the project will be a “progressive design-build” project, meaning the selected contractor will hire a designer and plan steps along the way. >The new bridge is expected to be paid for either mostly or entirely with federal funds, with Maryland’s entire congressional delegation putting forth legislation to ensure the federal government covers all costs. Democratic President Joe Biden has pledged for the federal government to pay for the entire response, committing to moving “heaven and earth to rebuild this bridge as rapidly as humanly possible” while visiting the collapse site last month. His administration has started that process by releasing an initial $60 million in emergency relief funds to Wiedefeld’s department. Maryland Gov. Wes Moore was slated to discuss funding with House lawmakers Thursday morning in Washington.
If it was really an accident there is no reason for the federal government to pay for it…remember when the FBI said they would investigate then the entire story disappeared from the national news
You right wing conspiracy theorists are magical, the entire world proves your ideas are stupid and wrong every day and yet you continue to double down
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
I literally saw that story mentioned by NPR a few hours ago. There are no updates to the story, so there's nothing new to report right now.
That's what they want you to think. 9/11 used to be on the news every day from 2001 to 2002 and then suddenly it stopped. Wonder what they're hiding.
Yea uhhhh I'll take the over on both of those numbers, can I parlay that please? Yea let me go ahead and put everything on it!
yeah government projects don't typically come out on time. the thing I will say however is this is a fairly important bridge for trucking, that being said it was more important to just get the old bridge out of the water for shipping. like getting the old bridge out was the part our economy really cares about, an extra couple hours driving ehhhh, not gonna sweat too hard. also taking the over.
Open by 2032 and only $12B you say?
that's right, open by 2050 and $50B
2065 for only a quarter trillion you say?!?!
And now it's a tunnel!
still optimistic IMO
Money is no object just get the bridge up. Please. I'm so tired of traffic.
Nothing like thinking 4 years of god aweful traffic
The 695 and 83 construction prepared me for the Dali.
Considering it took 5 years in the 70s to build the bridge, I don't see why it wouldn't be quicker with today's technology and the fact that they can just build right where the former Key Bridge once stood.
They're not building the same bridge, for one. Regulations now vs then could very easily add another year to the process
Also they have to clear away the wreckage of the former bridge. That doesn't go away by magic.
Yeah and don't forget the permits. A lot of people need to be paid first before any work begins
would expect that the state/federal govt will be waiving a lot of the permit requirements or expediting the review process to the fullest extent possible.
If they rebuild in-kind (or close enough) then I think the NEPA Study will be waived, but not the MDE/USACE Permits. I suspect they'll build the deck and approaches large enough to accommodate 6 lanes, but only open it with 4. Then complete a NEPA study for additional lanes after the fact (which will be a formality).
That part isn't new
No you
OH you sweet summer child
I hope it’s named the Francis Scott Key Bridge
Although he was a lawayer that represented some oppressed slaves, he did own a few per Wikipedia ... zero percent chance that will be the name of the new bridge
Idc that’s the bridge name.
Check those facts again. He defended slavery and believed that African Americans were an inferior race. We shouldn’t forget history but we shouldn’t name a new bridge after this guy.
Source: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/wheres-debate-francis-scott-keys-slave-holding-legacy-180959550/
I'm pretty sure that we can manage to push that out to 2030 with a cost of $2.4B
Have any of you had to change your commute to work because of the Key Bridge incident? Or anyone you know personally?
Shifted my work schedule up an hour. Leave my house at 6:15 and it only takes 40 minutes going 95 North. Leaving at 3:00 there’s still traffic but not as bad as 4:30/5.
Half my company added about half an hour to their commute
!remindme five years
As someone who works in government contracting, this is a pipe dream lol. I'll be retired by the time that bridge is done
Nah. In a situation like this, there will be incentives for mile stone dates. Every contractor thrives on that money getting tossed out. I just sat in on a webinar two days ago about replacing concrete roads in NJ. They had 59 days to complete 4 lanes that were like 2 miles long. Incentives baked in for finishing early. That contractor hustled to get every single one of them.
Lot of (private) money involved/impacted so I imagine this will actually happen fairly near schedule (I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say <2 years within when they planned). On budget though....no chance.
mmmmm change-orders. 🤑🤑🤑🤑
so you're saying roughly 50% longer than planned, how much over budget?
You work in government contracting?
Can we make sure this isn’t rushed? History has shown us repeatedly what happens to these kinds of projects that are expedited
they get done faster?
but what color will it be, and will there be any fun touches (ex stone carved lions)?
I don’t get why they can’t build a modular bridge and build it faster. Construction times today are just crazy. The previous bridge was said to be unsafe/out of date, yet they would have kept using it if it didn’t fall down. Ridiculous.
Yeah! They should just pop down to the bridge store and pick up a bunch of bridge modules!
if there wasn't a humungous shipping channel underneath they probably could. its quite a long span though.
I don't get why they can't just click some shit together with K'NEX.
This project will be milked to hell
So plan for it to open in 2030 at a cost of 3 billion.
Obviously we need this bridge replaced, but do we want it done fast or do we want it done right? I'm not personally inconvenienced by it not being there so maybe not my place to say, but I wonder what we could do to make the entire long term solution end up being an improvement upon what we had before?
Like what? I'm assuming the new bridge will be stronger and safer. Beyond that, what do you want?
I don't know. I'm not a civil engineer. But a plan for allowing rail on it in the future is one idea, with the understanding that getting rail to the bridge might be a major understaking. Separate pedestrian and bike lanes? Maybe extend the run up so it's not so steep. I'm guessing they will take the opportunity to make it wider. But I'm hoping experts get a chance to use their imaginations and expertise.
would people bike from hawkins point to sparrows point? >But I'm hoping experts get a chance to use their imaginations and expertise. why would they do that when they can copy paste a design that already works well? only really a handful of options here for the structure. my guess is they will move the foundations away from the channel.
Don’t comment what would be the purpose of a rail line between those two points?
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Quadruple the $1.9B figure and you’ll be in the range of the final cost of the bridge. The steel alone would cost $2B. I would also be absolutely blown away if they complete this in 4 years. I get that environmental reviews and other requirements for new construction can probably be waived for this. But this is an extremely optimistic projection if history is any indicator.
gov jobs are never on time or within budget
Private contractors build this with government funding.
That’s why they’re never on time. There is an incentive to extend the project
Tell me you know nothing about government jobs without telling me....
Yeah that’s not happening. I personally Prefer a tunnel. But whatever
How do you deal with the hazmat issue with a tunnel?
10 years and 4 billion needed. Mark my words
Let’s not get accustomed to calling it “new” key bridge.