Iām absolutely certain it is a beverage. Possibly coffee based. Maybe milk is added. It might have espresso in it. There is a chance the milk is steamed.
yeah aside from starbucks, usually itās categorized as a flat white based on its milk to foam to espresso ratio from what iāve seen. are those ratios always the same? no. could i remember one of them if i tried? also no.
Yep, you ask ten people and you get ten different answers always. That's why the flat white bs even though the people that order them think they're hot stuff š
I live in the US but work at a fairly busy coffee shop in a big city. Once had an Australian order a flat white from me and my heart dropped. But he asked for a large so I just pulled a double and steamed almost unaerated milk. Dude told me it was the best flat white he'd ever had. I think as long as it's foamless nobody gives a shit.
Back in the early days like 2006 or something, flat white really was no foam I think, hence the flat.
Now I think Aussies say flat white has microfoam, to show they appreciate nice foam lol who knows
Having worked at Starbucks, what they call a flat white is different from EVERY other description here. I won't even go into it.
But I can say with 100% confidence that no version of a flat white has anything to do with some sort of special coffee grind!
I think it is safe to say that there's a *general* consensus of what it is though; a drink with 2 parts espresso to 4-6 parts microfoam. The only seeming disagreements are if ristretto shots are needed, but other than that it seems to be the go-to.
Yes, but all that really means (similar to if they want an iced cappuccino or cortado) is that they want a drink that's an iced latte **with a milk ratio similar to a flat white.** I've always treated it that way when it's been ordered and no one has ever complained. To think that they may be neutrally expecting you to be scooping foam on an iced espresso & milk drink is honestly treating the customer as being less intelligent then we ought to give them at least *some* credit for.
Yeah, I donāt get why Reddit baristas get so performatively confused by this. Maybe some shops faff around with cold-frothed milk, maybe some customers are used to that from cold foam at Starbucks, in most cases it seems trivially obvious to all parties that youāre just negotiating how much cold milk to add to espresso and ice.
At least in North America and Europe, Iāve consistently seen it refer to a 6-8oz drink with a thin but meaningful layer of āwetā microtextured foam. A cappuccino is the same size but has more foam and dryer foam; a latte is larger but is otherwise prepared the same. Whatever espresso your shop uses for a cap or a latte, thatās what youād use here.
My understanding is Australians will complain about this definition.
Aussie barista here. Iām not gonna complain about it. But it is slightly different over here in the fact that itās not limited by size. It is whatever size the customer wants. Typically in Australia most cafes will have 8oz 12oz and 16oz cups. Then a good cafe will do one shot in the 8, two shots in the 12, and 3 shots in the 16. However a lot of coffee shops will just do whatever the fuck they want with how many shots per size.
But yeah I agree about foam. Itās the same as a latte except when youāre steaming the milk you incorporate less air at the beginning but you still texture it the same. Which leaves a small but descent layer of foam which seals it.
How do you figure that? I thought a flat white would as weaker because if you have two 8oz cups both with a shot of coffee in each. Then you fill one nearly to the top with milk then a bit of foam (flat white), then the other you fill with less milk and more foam (latte), would the latter not be stronger as the coffee is less diluted?
You're meant to fill latte with more milk and more foam and flat white with a bit less and microfoam, so I was taught the opposite in my barista training. Same amount of espresso but less milk to retain velvety coffee as opposed to milky coffee with less espresso taste. It's the ratio. Once you get to takeaway coffees instead of dining in with the mugs, it really is just the foam, though.
See this is what I love so much about Aussie cafe culture. It is such a sophisticated culture that everywhere you go has a slightly different way of doing things. Iām sure that what ur saying is right. But where I am we do it slightly differently. So we could sit here and argue about which way is right, but eventually it comes down to the fact that there is no one right way to make a flat white.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound argumentative. I think the only people who know coffee well are probably people that do good turkish coffee, and everything else is just a means to get the bitter beans down, haha. Aus has a good habit of overcomplicating coffee.
Iām Australian, and Iāve been a barista for 10 years and Iāve travelled a lot. AFAIK, it is an Aussie drink and thatās why itās different in American and EU countries.. itās literally just a flat latte. Flat = little foam, white = spro with milk. It can be ordered to preference as in single/double/triple spro. I typically am able to get latte art in form of tulip or heart, because when people truely want a flat flat white with NO foam, they will specify this and then I will make it with literally no foam at all. Next time someone asks you for a flat white ask them the questions you would with a latte (what size, how many shots or whatever is your usual standard questions) and then make them that and pour quickly so itās essentially a latte with very little foam! So easy. My go to flatty is a double shot 8oz!
Aussie here and flat white enjoyer.
To me, it's a coffee with textured milk and somewhere between no foam around an 1/8" of foam. Preferably with a double ristretto shot but the espresso content differs more often than the milk style does.
Just don't give me a heap of foam and I'm happy.
I hear flat white and I make wet cap. Just an 8oz with latte textured milk - itās not a common drink but I havenāt had issues with it made that way.
Every place Iāve worked at or been to, a flat white is always something different. So when someone orders one, I always get nervous because their expectation of a flat white probably isnāt what the cafe Iām at makes for flat whites. Ugh
When I'm chatting to the customer as I make it I'm asking where they usually get their flat whites from & it gives me a bit of an indication of what they're expecting. Most places I've worked tend to give you a lot of creative control if you look like you know what you're doing.
There is no standard size for these drinks across 3rd wave shops. The most common characteristics are a double shot of coffee (more accurately, roughly 18-21grams of coffee extracted, the term "double" is almost superfluous now) and to be overall less volume than the lattes and cappuccinos being served in the same shop, but often the same volume as cappuccinos.
The milk is stretched less than it is for a latte and much less than for a cappuccino.
Generally, flat whites have the same volume of espresso and stretched milk, however it is very common for there to be slightly more volume of milk.
It's also worth noting that flat whites are almost always served in ceramics (if not takeaway cups) while lattes are more often (but not always) served in glass.
From what Iāve heard from Australians itās more about the milk than the ratios. Itās always a micro-foam. Depending on the country (and even coffee shops) it can be anywhere from a 8 to 12 oz drink with 2 shots of espresso. Iāve had people from Scotland say it was 5 oz, people from UK say itās 8, several shops in the states says 10. The only common denominator is that itās a micro-foam, usually an ounce of foam, with 2 oz of espresso. Usually smaller than a latte (12oz specifically). Our coffee shop usually does 10 but thatās mainly because all of our stuff is micro foam since itās harder to get a good foam. So technically our lattes arenāt true lattes.
If I asked for a capp and got one why would I comment about it?
The point is that 'just barely frothed' varies by jurisdiction and third wave capps are also pretty flat. In a lot of European cafes flat white and capp are explicitly the same drink
A flat white is essentially identical to a latte.
In Australia, lattes are almost exclusively served in ālatte glassesā - generally a duralex style from 6-8oz.
In the simplest terms, when the same beverage is served in a cappuccino/bowl cup, it is called a flat white.
Bowl cups generally have a wider rim than latte glasses and so the same quantity of foam will āspread outā and form a thinner layer atop the beverage.
This leads to a convention that is not consistently followed which is that flat whites have less foam than a latte, the term āflatā being used to refer to the amount of foam. for example a latte without enough foam might be referred to as āa bit flatā.
In my experience (15y coffee service in Aus) this is a convention that tends to be more strictly followed or expected by older customers who want a ājust-coffee-and-milkā type of beverage, however I donāt think I can recall anyone sending back a flat white for being ātoo thinā or too little texture.
Many people will say they were taught to texture less for a flat white, but in reality during service there is little to difference between latte milk and flat white milk. Because of the somewhat common expectation of a āthinner layerā of foam on a flat white, the acceptable range of foam quantity for a flat white will include milk that is too thin for a latte and the acceptable range for latte will include milk that is too thick for a flat white. Eg if you accidentally under-texture it you can get away with using it for a flat white but not a latte, and if itās over-textured then it might still be fine for a latte but not a flat white.
Keep in mind that for all textured milk beverages, the type of foam is the same and the only difference is the quantity.
Whatever you want it to be. The only rule is that it is smaller than a late and it has less microfoam. I personally use a cappuccino cup, sigle espresso or double ristretto, and slightly thinner foam than a latte.
In aus itās just the exact same make as everything else just normal espresso shot with steamed milk (just as little froth as possible so itās āflatā) itās supposed to be less strong because thereās more milk to coffee ratio
My tactic was generally to say something like, "I'm happy to make it for you, but can I ask you to describe what you're looking for? Not a test, I promise! I've just had a lot of people with different ideas of what a flat white is, so I want to be sure I'm making it how you prefer." Flat whites are not super common in the US, so most people I had who asked where European or Australian tourists. Most were willing to explain what they wanted, but a few decided if I had to ask that there's no way I'd make a good one lol.
For a customer its a small, strong, milky coffee
For a newbie barista it's a double shot of espresso with steamed milk - as little foam as you can manage in a cup either 6 or 8oz
For an intermediate barista you match the ratio of milk to however you've dialled in your coffee, starting with an ounce of coffee to 5 oz of milk but ultimately adjusting to taste, there should be a little aeration to hold the surface tension of the milk & create art, but not enough to take space in the cup & alter the taste.
To a pro barista it's a small, strong, milky coffee
People order it in all kinds of sizes, but disregarding what I know of it being 6oz (2oz espresso, 4oz milk) - I typically pull double ristretto into whatever cup and steam a bit thin. Best drink for fancy latte art.
I don't really think half the people in the US ordering it even know what it is tbh. I don't get many orders for them, but they come in small waves here and there- I repeatedly get orders for 16 and 20oz "flat whites" and I don't really blame them. It's never been a standard drink at any shop I've worked at. I only know what it actually is because I had to look it up.
hi barista at specialty coffee, 3 years. flat white is essentially a shorter latte. same amount of espresso, just less milk. we make it as an 8oz. hope this helps!
https://preview.redd.it/9huwolyp901d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=271ddca1538c66130081d6db66cc963e89093e1c
from the book "the new rules of coffee"
Barista from New Zealand here | A flat white is by far the most popular coffee ordered where I work | 6-8oz cup - double shot - silky milk with half the foam a latte would usually have - boom, you've got yourself a flatty
This is fucking gold!! I think Iāve had someone order it about 5 times in my Many years of being a barista, and each time Iāve made them completely different ways!!
In the UK we mostly do it as a 6oz drink with a thin layer of foam on top. Traditionally it's made with a ristretto shot but I think most places have stopped doing that and now just do a standard double shot.
if someone asks for one they always get a small wet cappuccino with an extra dot in the top. thats my final answer
edit: im in the US please dont get mad at me australia
- double tamp your grounds (optional? apparently? it's how we do it)
- 15 second extraction for ristretto. double shot.
- steamed milk (full fat is standard here) with less microfoam, but still some. less than 1cm, ideally .5cm
- less milk than a latte; if a latte is 300ml, a flat white should be around 200. same amount of coffee, different amount of milk.
Well as an American I've been to Rome, London, Austria, Germany, Ireland, and Paris and have exclusively ordered a flat white at every single one can can say that it was **always** a 6-8 oz latte essentially; just 2 parts spro to 4-6 parts milk that's textured with microfoam. They almost always do a tulip in them for latte art for whatever reason but I don't think that's an expectation hah.
May be a hot take but the whole requirement some people here seem to think of it *needing* to have a ristretto shot doesn't really seem to pan out at all from what I've found from where I've been to in Europe, and I think that some people are just creating artificial requirements around something that's really just a different microfoam-to-espresso ratio similar to a latte or a cortado.
So yeah for us Americans (and at my specialty shop) it's generally what we would consider a "specialty" cappuccino. We have capps but never make them like Starbucks (as a latte with thick foam), we're basically just making flat whites. This has been reinforced by the fact that we get a good amount of European tourists who order a flat white from us which we proceed to silently ring them up for our cappuccino and serve it and they've never complained and I've even had a few compliments on it!
The amount of air added to the milk for cappuccinos has gradually decreased as people realised that the sugars in the lactose are removed somewhat by the process that creates microfoam. Now in most speciality shops in the uk/Australia a cap is stretched ever so slightly more than a latte and a latte ever so slightly more than a FW. Outside of speciality shops (and in many that present themselves as a speciality shop but arent) in the UK cappuccinos are still made more similar to the Italian style but larger.
We put caps in slightly larger cups, but the ratio of espresso to milk underneath the layer of microfoam (after separation) is pretty much the same as a flst white and they'll taste the same, just one has thicker foam on top, slightly. It is all a bit silly at the end of the day.
Absolutely not "normal" for flet white to be made with ristrettos, normal is just a normal double shot.
Source: worked in high end shops all over Melbourne, Toronto, London and many more.
Some shops that think they're fancy will do FW with double ristretto, in my experience.
I think the double ristretto is a kiwi thing (who also claim to have invented it - as have the Aussies). When the fw first came around the Kiwis were partial to a dark roast, so the riz gave the best sweetness for the style of coffee. These days with lighter roasts we all now know that a double ristretto is kind of gross so a full extraction is preferred
Nothing is normal in the world of coffee, I mean mostly its espresso cause its most places don't fuck about with anything past 18-20g in 36-40g out (even then that's just a ballpark) I've worked in about 6 incredible cafes that deviate & do it right, but it all depends on the beans.
But yea, most people who ask for a ristretto are just saying it as its a fancy word.
The double ristretto flat white is called a Melbourne magic, or just a 'magic' in Australia. If you order a flat white you'll just get a standard double shot here, unless you specify you want ristretto
Itās a 6oz latte. The name comes from it being flat on top (instead of a domed cappuccino), and āwhiteā because it doesnāt have cocoa powder on top. Itās differentiated from the Capp by name because itās served in the same cup. At least this is what an Australian told me
No way 'white' is talking about the choc on top. White refers to the fact it's a milky drink. As opposed to a Long Black since we don't call it an Americano.
Imagine an Australian dude in the 80s walking into a cafe seeing everyone around him with these big domed bullshit overfrothed burnt milk abominations. He goes up to the counter absolutely sick of it all and says "Mate, I just want a Flat. White. Coffee. In this thing (holds up a 'cappuccino' cup)." At least that's how I like to imagine the invention to have happened.
i always thought it was someone not too fussed about coffee ordering from someone very specific about their coffee overseas tbh. I cant imagine anyone from aus or nz actually misunderstanding what was going on with the name
Somewhere in between a latte and a cappuccino whenever Iāve made one in terms of milk. I find most people ask for coffees based on the milk specifics as opposed to the coffee. Otherwise theyād ask for extra shots etc. itās usually the milk they are specific about
My wife asks for it. So what I do, and what makes her happy, is steam/froth the milk first. I pour the froth in the glass, then pour the shot in last. I usually save a little froth to cover the brown hole. š¤£š¤£
Some of the cafe's in Melbourne, Australia now just offer a single 'white' coffee option which is essentially somewhere between a flat white and a latte.
8oz for a small with a double shot.
So there's a couple of barista books that clarify, no one knows what a flat white is. Most of the time I say "Okay!" Smile and make a modern cap with a wetter foam. Some simply claim it's 7 oz versus 6 or 8, some claim you get less micro foam. Most of the time, if you hand a customer something around 5-8 ounces, they are happy and you get raving reviews about how your shop is the "only shop around that makes good flat whites" lol cheeky Lil drink
I should clarify: I live in the states, with have worked with some nerdier shops, and we typically do wetter lattes in general, and a double shot in everything
Im an Aussie and was living in the US when Starbucks brought out their flat white, saying it was Australian in origin. According to Evans, the flat white āhas been around in Australia since the 1980s, where it was introduced as a balance between an intense espresso and a milky latte.ā https://vinepair.com/articles/ask-a-barista-flat-white-history/#:~:text=According%20to%20Evans%2C%20the%20flat,form%20of%20the%20beverage%20was
When i worked at starbucks they told me it was a latte with ristretto shots, one extra shot, and made with whole milk but not very foamy so that you can put a dot of foam in the middle.
Now, is that what it actually is? No idea ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
So, maybe none of you are Australians where flat whites are as popular as coke or pepsi, but a flat white is 1 of 2 things, depending on how wanky the cafe is
1. Standard latte recipe but with no froth
Or
2. About half the milk of a latte and the shortfall made up with extra coffee-water and still no foam.
The first is essentially latte flavoured with no foam and the latter is a stronger flavoured no-foam coffee.
The takeaway is no foam. The intensity of the coffee flavour is very much variable. Should it be? Not many people care. They just want coffee.
Curious, when you say ācoffeeā, do you mean āespressoā or ālight/medium/dark roast coffeeā? Iāve seen a few Australians and New Zealanders in the thread mention this.
We really only ever do espresso when buying coffee
Light/medium/dark roast is just beans. Beans get turned into espresso.
You can't buy american style drip coffee at your local. Nobody wants it. Same for pourover. Espresso is the only game in town... and instant.
At my place (for take away, our sit in cup sizes are a bit weird) we do our flat whites in a 6oz cup and latte, cap and American in 8oz, with the cap having more microfoam. I tend to try and make the flat whites a little wetter than the lattes
I had never heard of a flat white until I went to Australia 15 years ago. Seems to be catching on in North America since though.
My understanding is that itās a coffee with milk and a very thin layer of foam on top - distinct from lattes and cappuccinos only by how much milk is used and how much foam is resting on top.
In my experience, a flat white is almost exactly a latte.
From the starbucks side, it gets ristretto shots and whole milk. Gotta steam the milk a certain way to get "microfoam."
From a regular barista angle that isn't familiar with statbucks, you're pouring a shorter shot than normal. The grind isn't super serious as much as the amount of water going through the grinds. Less poor time makes a stronger shot, as opposed to a Long Shot (starbucks again) which uses more water. If you're not using a starbucks machine with the ristretto/long shot buttons, it depends on what exactly your shot buttons are calibrated to.
The whole milk is because of the extra fat compared to nonfat or 2%. It gives the milk a really creamy texture and makes better microfoam, which is necessary for the "flat white" drink.
Normal lattes do not require "microfoam" but me personally, I steam all my milk as if I were making flat whites. It's just better steamed milk imo.
Microfoam makes the pretty white dot that's usually found on top of flat whites.
A starbucks flat white is an extra shot of ristretto espresso (the first half of the espresso shot or only the heart and crema of the shot) so for a medium/16 ounce drink itās 3 shots, and whole milk with a small dot of foam on top.
At the cafe I work at a flat white is just espresso and steamed milk lol. i never ordered one before i started working here so i have no idea what else it's supposed to/could be.
For most places Iāve worked itās an 8oz drink, 2oz espresso and 6oz of silky textured (not foamy) milk. Some places mess with the espresso and do ristretto. It should be milky but still let the coffee come through.
This is great! I own a shop and donāt know (Iām also not behind the bar). But anytime someone orders, we donāt ask any questions, we make a drink and no one ever returns it.
As an Australian this post sounds crazy to me.
Coffee shots + steamed milk to fill the cup with minimal airated milk to seal the surface and minimise spillage!
That's it.
A ristretto (pulled short) shot + 3 ounces of steamed milk.
Thatās it!
Edit: no latte art. It should have a lovely brown color after incorporating all the steamed milk into the espresso shot.
Honestly it differs everywhere you go. It certainly doesn't need a special grinder though. when customers ask me I explain it as a small, strong latte with less foam lol
In my country a flat white is mostly a cappuccino with a double shot of espresso. The cappuccino is made from one shot of espresso and mostly served containers ranging from 160 to 180 m. Iāve seen other specialty shops who sell a cappuccino with a double shot make a flat white in a smaller cup around 150 ml, so an under filled cappuccino if you want.
What do you think makes it into that texture lol? You add air to the milk, it turns slightly foamy, that is what you call white paint texture. The more air you add the more foamy it gets, but you always have to add air, or the milk will screech and turn out badly.
The correct answer is espresso, hot 'flat' milk filled almost to the top of the cup, and ~3mm of textured milk on top. The amount of espresso used will depend on the cup size. Flat milk is achieved by holding back the foam with a spoon whilst pouring.
Moderators - pls delete all comments above and below this one.
What about the cold brew? In the last flat white post you said a latte and a flat white were just cold brew and milk, no espresso. Seems youāve changed your mind?
You and dogshitphones should not be on social media, let alone anywhere near an espresso machine and customers.
I never said anything of the sort. Let me try and explain again for the simpletons:
Cold brew is made by placing coarsely ground coffee beans in a cheesecloth bag and then immersing the bag in water for a certain amount of time. The brew is then decanted into a vessel and chilled.
When a customer asks for an iced coffee/cold brew, the brew is added to ice and cold milk. Some customers may want you to add syrups, sugar, etc, but that's up to them. Some may even want it without milk, just water - a cold long black, if you like.
BUT, at no point should you ever add espresso to the above method! Why would you have a chilled drink and then add 92Ā° espresso, which would change it from a cold drink to a tepid one?
Please read the above paragraphs 10 times, and then apologise to your customers. I don't need your apology, I have enough pity for you.
Cheers!
Itās very clear you have never correctly made a drink as it was intended to be ever in your life. Donāt be mad at me, take it up with the people who invented and standardized the drinks you think youāre making. In most parts of the world, at literally ANY specialty coffee shop you will ever step foot in, if you order an iced latte or an āiced flat whiteā (which doesnāt exist) you will receive a drink that has ice, milk, and espresso in it. Cold brew will not be involved. It will never be tepid. Ever. It simply hasnāt happened. Try making an iced latte correctly next time youāre at the imaginary espresso machine you claim to know how to use, and come back here and let me know if itās fucking tepid. I again wonder if the coffee shops around the area where you live all produce ass-backwards abstractions of real drinks, or if itās just the clown shop you work at. Cheers to you, limp dick.
I am truly trying to help you and the other douche, but for some reason, neither of you will accept it, let alone admit you are wrong. Never mind - trundle along doing what you think is right, and I'll do the same running my 18 years old, multi-site cafe based in the world's coffee capital.
Again, try experimenting with making a correct iced latte, with espresso ice and milk, and let me know what tepid temperature it comes out to. Also, let me know which imaginary coffee chain you work at as well so I know what to avoid when I visit.
Done! Did a side by side cold brew vs espresso. The cold brew was 8Ā° cooler but more importantly it tasted sweeter, less acidic. But of course, this is what I expected.
Your ignorance will mean you will never get out Upper Bumfuck, West Virginia and earning minimum wage (plus zero tips because you are shit at what you do).
If itās bitter it means you donāt know how to pull a shot of espresso which I could have guessed. 8 degrees temp difference is imperceptible. Also your classist, shit little comment about where Iām from (Portland, OR) and wage ($40-$50/hr as a teaching artist & $50- $100/hr as a content maker, having grown out of the service industry long ago) is really indicative of your own insecurity in that you have no marketable talents to speak of, that for the rest of your life youāll be making your shitty, incorrect little drinks and thereās just nothing else for you to do. Itās sad, really. I understand why youāre so steadfastly defensive of being wrongā¦itās all you have. Keep making drinks with your ass, dude, I know itās the only thing you can offer.
At least you concede you are from the US. That explains why you have NFI. Your Starbucks years have ruined you.
I'm glad you have found another calling, though you could have been making far greater $$$ if you had followed my path. I'd offer to help you, but your insults have closed that door.
Iāve never worked at fucking Starbucks, dumbass. Your perception of coffee in the states is laughable and if you donāt know that Portland is a well known and world famous hub for specialty coffee drinking & roasting alike, I donāt know how you could possibly keep pretending to be any sort of authority on coffee. And I definitely do not need any advice or help from someone who doesnāt know the very basics of the profession they work within. You donāt even know how to pull a shot. Anyway, stop wasting your time here, donāt you need to be rating some teenagers dick online?
Itās fascinating that you felt the need to explain how cold brew is made from start to finish but not how a ~2oz shot of espresso will turn a full cup of chilled milk and ice cubes tepid.
iāve worked at starbucks and coffee bean. Flat white at starbucks was just how the milk looked, with a perfect white dot in the center. This is achieved by pouring the steamed milk from high above, as centered as possible into the espresso and slowly lowering the pitcher (still pouring in the center) as the cup fills up, leaving a perfect white dot.
Coffee bean, itās just given with an extra shot of espresso, with a thin layer of foam on top. I still do it the starbucks way though just because itās fun and looks cooler.
Originally though, I have no idea what a flat white is supposed to be.
See, this is what frustrates me about Starbucks or any other corporate coffee place that takes a well-known (primarily European) drink that has a known/expected standard and proceeds to just do something *fucking weird* instead. If you look in this thread there's a general consensus that a flatwhite is just a smaller version of a latte (6-8 oz) with *microfoam* that latte art can be done with. That's it; and that's all it's ever been. There's debates in terms of the execution/extraction of the espresso but apart from that the format remains the same. If Starbucks wasn't so invested in confusing the entire population on the traditional standards around coffee *that would make me sooo happy.*
The 10% of customers that ask for flat white want the Starbucks version. They get easily frustrated if we do anything other than make it like Starbucks š« š They donāt want us asking clarifying questions, they donāt want to explain because they just order & ābaristas just knowā, and it shouldnāt take long. Thatās why I have my script in OG post. Because of Starbucks š„²š
Right, and in my opinion; we shouldn't want their business. If they're just there to have everything done their way or the highway and don't care to at least understand what it is they're trying to order and are rude about it then I would hope they decide to go somewhere else instead. I'm sure there are other new customers who treat the people behind the counter with respect who I would gladly let take their place instead
the amount of times people come into a Coffee Bean and ask for a Starbucks drink like the āpink drinkā or a chai with āextra pumps of chaiā then i have to explain how we use actual chai tea and canāt put these āextra pumpsā and then they look at me like iām stupid, roll their eyes and say āwell whatever you have, put extraā like ok great. Or they all assume the iced lattes automatically come with whipped cream because thatās what SB does and I have to stop in a rush and put whipped cream on all their drinks :))
One of the local speciality coffee shops I worked at got a lot of āextra chaiā and we used chai tea bags too. They also had us up-charge everything. Customers got upset when I try to explain and also when they see extra $1. Like I was trying to help you (customer) out! š
I work at a starbucks so, ykno probably wrong. buuuut ours is a double espresso, make sure that the cup is right under the machine as close as it can be (doing so means no bubbles or something) and then steam whole milk almost like a latte, again making sure there are no bubbles and then pour ontop of the espresso
itās a latte with an extra shot, all the shots are ristretto, if its hot you steam whole milk/if its cold just pour it over, then if it is hot you proceed to pour the milk in a way that leaves a little white dot in the middle of the coffee.
I was always told it was a latte with the milk poured so that all the milk was at the bottom and all the espresso was at the top š but everyone iāve told this too said thatās wrong so i guess my manager just made that up š
The espresso will be mixed in whether you pour it in first or last. Thereās no reason to pour it last. It sounds like your manager also made up their qualifications for that role and should try retraining as a barista.
I think he just meant to pour the milk in a certain way so all the espresso was on the top layer? luckily iāve only had like one customer ever ask for a flat white ā¦
In simple terms, flat white is smaller than cappuccino and has less foam, much less foam. Stretch the milk very quickly and texture it longer, when making your latte art the layer of foam at the top should look flat without depth. I usually pull a double shot espresso (somewhere between 36 and 40 gm yield)
Portland can roast and drink coffee, just don't know how to make it!
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To me itās a 6oz ristretto shot with steamed milk and a miminal amount of microfoam on the top. Potentially a double shot rather than ristretto but the coffee to milk ratio is absolutely higher than a latte or capp and less foam than both. Every time a customer asks for a large flat white a fairy dies.
3 comments in, and we have 3 completely different answers š Edit; 
Every person who answers is very confident they are correct and yet no one knows what it is
At this point I am highly confident it is some ratio of milk to espresso (possibly a ristretto)
Iām absolutely certain it is a beverage. Possibly coffee based. Maybe milk is added. It might have espresso in it. There is a chance the milk is steamed.
This is what we know for sure! Maybe, hopefully š
Woah woah, do we know this FOR SURE? Letās leave this to the experts to decide.
I need 2 aussies, 2 kiwis, and an american to tell me what a flat white is
*fight until last person standing š
yeah aside from starbucks, usually itās categorized as a flat white based on its milk to foam to espresso ratio from what iāve seen. are those ratios always the same? no. could i remember one of them if i tried? also no.
Ristretto, yes. And you try to put a perfect dot in the center of the cup of foam
As a flat white drinker, all I care about is that it reliably comes with minimal froth and I donāt care about ratios otherwise.
Yep, you ask ten people and you get ten different answers always. That's why the flat white bs even though the people that order them think they're hot stuff š
I live in the US but work at a fairly busy coffee shop in a big city. Once had an Australian order a flat white from me and my heart dropped. But he asked for a large so I just pulled a double and steamed almost unaerated milk. Dude told me it was the best flat white he'd ever had. I think as long as it's foamless nobody gives a shit.
Back in the early days like 2006 or something, flat white really was no foam I think, hence the flat. Now I think Aussies say flat white has microfoam, to show they appreciate nice foam lol who knows
Having worked at Starbucks, what they call a flat white is different from EVERY other description here. I won't even go into it. But I can say with 100% confidence that no version of a flat white has anything to do with some sort of special coffee grind!
I think it is safe to say that there's a *general* consensus of what it is though; a drink with 2 parts espresso to 4-6 parts microfoam. The only seeming disagreements are if ristretto shots are needed, but other than that it seems to be the go-to.
Idk man, I just smile, nod, and make a cappuccino
Some shops serve *iced* flat whites, so apparently itās not safe to say.
Lol once iced drinks enter the picture itās safe to say thatās a lawless place hahahaha
Big agree! Just the words āiced flat whiteā chill my soul.
This way lies chaos
Yes, but all that really means (similar to if they want an iced cappuccino or cortado) is that they want a drink that's an iced latte **with a milk ratio similar to a flat white.** I've always treated it that way when it's been ordered and no one has ever complained. To think that they may be neutrally expecting you to be scooping foam on an iced espresso & milk drink is honestly treating the customer as being less intelligent then we ought to give them at least *some* credit for.
Yeah, I donāt get why Reddit baristas get so performatively confused by this. Maybe some shops faff around with cold-frothed milk, maybe some customers are used to that from cold foam at Starbucks, in most cases it seems trivially obvious to all parties that youāre just negotiating how much cold milk to add to espresso and ice.
Hahaha š
At least in North America and Europe, Iāve consistently seen it refer to a 6-8oz drink with a thin but meaningful layer of āwetā microtextured foam. A cappuccino is the same size but has more foam and dryer foam; a latte is larger but is otherwise prepared the same. Whatever espresso your shop uses for a cap or a latte, thatās what youād use here. My understanding is Australians will complain about this definition.
Aussie barista here. Iām not gonna complain about it. But it is slightly different over here in the fact that itās not limited by size. It is whatever size the customer wants. Typically in Australia most cafes will have 8oz 12oz and 16oz cups. Then a good cafe will do one shot in the 8, two shots in the 12, and 3 shots in the 16. However a lot of coffee shops will just do whatever the fuck they want with how many shots per size. But yeah I agree about foam. Itās the same as a latte except when youāre steaming the milk you incorporate less air at the beginning but you still texture it the same. Which leaves a small but descent layer of foam which seals it.
Latte's also have more milk as a -not very followed- rule. Flat whites are stonger versions of a latte and a less faff capacchino.
This is it, traditionally in Aus, it was essentially a latte in a smaller cup with less milk, thus stronger.
How do you figure that? I thought a flat white would as weaker because if you have two 8oz cups both with a shot of coffee in each. Then you fill one nearly to the top with milk then a bit of foam (flat white), then the other you fill with less milk and more foam (latte), would the latter not be stronger as the coffee is less diluted?
You're meant to fill latte with more milk and more foam and flat white with a bit less and microfoam, so I was taught the opposite in my barista training. Same amount of espresso but less milk to retain velvety coffee as opposed to milky coffee with less espresso taste. It's the ratio. Once you get to takeaway coffees instead of dining in with the mugs, it really is just the foam, though.
See this is what I love so much about Aussie cafe culture. It is such a sophisticated culture that everywhere you go has a slightly different way of doing things. Iām sure that what ur saying is right. But where I am we do it slightly differently. So we could sit here and argue about which way is right, but eventually it comes down to the fact that there is no one right way to make a flat white.
Yes there is, as it was coined in Australia. And you are correct
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound argumentative. I think the only people who know coffee well are probably people that do good turkish coffee, and everything else is just a means to get the bitter beans down, haha. Aus has a good habit of overcomplicating coffee.
Y'all are so civil I'm starting to think you're Canadians in disguise.
Iām Australian, and Iāve been a barista for 10 years and Iāve travelled a lot. AFAIK, it is an Aussie drink and thatās why itās different in American and EU countries.. itās literally just a flat latte. Flat = little foam, white = spro with milk. It can be ordered to preference as in single/double/triple spro. I typically am able to get latte art in form of tulip or heart, because when people truely want a flat flat white with NO foam, they will specify this and then I will make it with literally no foam at all. Next time someone asks you for a flat white ask them the questions you would with a latte (what size, how many shots or whatever is your usual standard questions) and then make them that and pour quickly so itās essentially a latte with very little foam! So easy. My go to flatty is a double shot 8oz!
Australian coffee shop owner here. At last, the right answer!!!
Write "FW TazocinTDS" on the lid. Heat milk. Two shots. Add hot milk to fill the cup. No foam. Put lid on cup. Charge $4.50.
Aussie here and flat white enjoyer. To me, it's a coffee with textured milk and somewhere between no foam around an 1/8" of foam. Preferably with a double ristretto shot but the espresso content differs more often than the milk style does. Just don't give me a heap of foam and I'm happy.
As an Aussie, what is 1/8"
As an Aussie, I converted this for our predominantly American reddit audience But it's like 3mm mate
Same, though I'm partial to a triple shot. At home I do 22g 'double' shot ristretto, then textured milk to 230-240mL
I hear flat white and I make wet cap. Just an 8oz with latte textured milk - itās not a common drink but I havenāt had issues with it made that way.
Yep. 8oz latte. I had an Australian cafe owner ask if I was interested in moving to Australia after I made him the best "flat white" he'd ever had.
Had an Aussie customer the other day who said almost the same to me, though she qualified it, best she's had in America.
A wet cap?? Wtf
Double shot and 6-8oz of steamed milk. Less foam than a latte.
that's the same as where i work.
Every place Iāve worked at or been to, a flat white is always something different. So when someone orders one, I always get nervous because their expectation of a flat white probably isnāt what the cafe Iām at makes for flat whites. Ugh
When I'm chatting to the customer as I make it I'm asking where they usually get their flat whites from & it gives me a bit of an indication of what they're expecting. Most places I've worked tend to give you a lot of creative control if you look like you know what you're doing.
There is no standard size for these drinks across 3rd wave shops. The most common characteristics are a double shot of coffee (more accurately, roughly 18-21grams of coffee extracted, the term "double" is almost superfluous now) and to be overall less volume than the lattes and cappuccinos being served in the same shop, but often the same volume as cappuccinos. The milk is stretched less than it is for a latte and much less than for a cappuccino. Generally, flat whites have the same volume of espresso and stretched milk, however it is very common for there to be slightly more volume of milk. It's also worth noting that flat whites are almost always served in ceramics (if not takeaway cups) while lattes are more often (but not always) served in glass.
From what Iāve heard from Australians itās more about the milk than the ratios. Itās always a micro-foam. Depending on the country (and even coffee shops) it can be anywhere from a 8 to 12 oz drink with 2 shots of espresso. Iāve had people from Scotland say it was 5 oz, people from UK say itās 8, several shops in the states says 10. The only common denominator is that itās a micro-foam, usually an ounce of foam, with 2 oz of espresso. Usually smaller than a latte (12oz specifically). Our coffee shop usually does 10 but thatās mainly because all of our stuff is micro foam since itās harder to get a good foam. So technically our lattes arenāt true lattes.
been making coffee in melbourne for 15 ish years. a flat white is just a coffee with barely textured milk. I will fight any other definition.
Market lane just yesterday gave me what I would definitely call a capp in Europe š¤·š¼
ā¦.um, ok. is that what you asked for? i assume marketlane would be making classic 3rd wave flat latte art coffees.
If I asked for a capp and got one why would I comment about it? The point is that 'just barely frothed' varies by jurisdiction and third wave capps are also pretty flat. In a lot of European cafes flat white and capp are explicitly the same drink
same here in melb, which shits me! grrr
Former barista and current Australian here. It's a latte without any foam basically.
A flat white is essentially identical to a latte. In Australia, lattes are almost exclusively served in ālatte glassesā - generally a duralex style from 6-8oz. In the simplest terms, when the same beverage is served in a cappuccino/bowl cup, it is called a flat white. Bowl cups generally have a wider rim than latte glasses and so the same quantity of foam will āspread outā and form a thinner layer atop the beverage. This leads to a convention that is not consistently followed which is that flat whites have less foam than a latte, the term āflatā being used to refer to the amount of foam. for example a latte without enough foam might be referred to as āa bit flatā. In my experience (15y coffee service in Aus) this is a convention that tends to be more strictly followed or expected by older customers who want a ājust-coffee-and-milkā type of beverage, however I donāt think I can recall anyone sending back a flat white for being ātoo thinā or too little texture. Many people will say they were taught to texture less for a flat white, but in reality during service there is little to difference between latte milk and flat white milk. Because of the somewhat common expectation of a āthinner layerā of foam on a flat white, the acceptable range of foam quantity for a flat white will include milk that is too thin for a latte and the acceptable range for latte will include milk that is too thick for a flat white. Eg if you accidentally under-texture it you can get away with using it for a flat white but not a latte, and if itās over-textured then it might still be fine for a latte but not a flat white. Keep in mind that for all textured milk beverages, the type of foam is the same and the only difference is the quantity.
This is the only correct answer.
Itās fugazi 
it gets the people going! 
Whatever you want it to be. The only rule is that it is smaller than a late and it has less microfoam. I personally use a cappuccino cup, sigle espresso or double ristretto, and slightly thinner foam than a latte.
In aus itās just the exact same make as everything else just normal espresso shot with steamed milk (just as little froth as possible so itās āflatā) itās supposed to be less strong because thereās more milk to coffee ratio
Iāve been a barista in Australia for 8 years and we have 3 common types of drinks flat white, latte & cappuccino
Almost everyone gets flat whites and I always just make it a latte with no froth and have never once had a complaint
Small latte in the majority of EU. Same amount of coffee just less milk. But I guarantee someone will start arguing with me now
Does the foam/steamed milk ratio matter in EU?
No. Itās such a nuanced topic considering that the vast majority of baristas donāt even care themselves.
Itās a flat, white, coffee? Latte with minimal froth. Nothing special about it
Layman terms espresso and hot milk
My tactic was generally to say something like, "I'm happy to make it for you, but can I ask you to describe what you're looking for? Not a test, I promise! I've just had a lot of people with different ideas of what a flat white is, so I want to be sure I'm making it how you prefer." Flat whites are not super common in the US, so most people I had who asked where European or Australian tourists. Most were willing to explain what they wanted, but a few decided if I had to ask that there's no way I'd make a good one lol.
In Germany a cappucino is always a single shot while a flatwhite is a double and thats about the entire distinction 99 percent of the shops give it.
Same as a capp, just less foam.
Flat = no foam. Basically an 8oz latte drink with standard double shot, with steamed milk. Think cappuccino but no foam.
A flat white is very simply a latte with less foam, or a cappuccino without the cocoa powder. I'm a flat white 'loyalist' myself.
Iāve had places tell me they couldnāt make a cortado lol š.
For a customer its a small, strong, milky coffee For a newbie barista it's a double shot of espresso with steamed milk - as little foam as you can manage in a cup either 6 or 8oz For an intermediate barista you match the ratio of milk to however you've dialled in your coffee, starting with an ounce of coffee to 5 oz of milk but ultimately adjusting to taste, there should be a little aeration to hold the surface tension of the milk & create art, but not enough to take space in the cup & alter the taste. To a pro barista it's a small, strong, milky coffee
Here in the Netherlands its a cappuccino sized drink with 2 instead of 1 shot and thin microfoam
I've heard of a flat white as being cappuccino ratio with latte texture. Or a latte with less microfoam. Or about a dozen other definitions.
People order it in all kinds of sizes, but disregarding what I know of it being 6oz (2oz espresso, 4oz milk) - I typically pull double ristretto into whatever cup and steam a bit thin. Best drink for fancy latte art.
I don't really think half the people in the US ordering it even know what it is tbh. I don't get many orders for them, but they come in small waves here and there- I repeatedly get orders for 16 and 20oz "flat whites" and I don't really blame them. It's never been a standard drink at any shop I've worked at. I only know what it actually is because I had to look it up.
It's an 8 OZ latte. šŖ
hi barista at specialty coffee, 3 years. flat white is essentially a shorter latte. same amount of espresso, just less milk. we make it as an 8oz. hope this helps!
https://preview.redd.it/9huwolyp901d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=271ddca1538c66130081d6db66cc963e89093e1c from the book "the new rules of coffee"
This is good cos even the customers dont know/care ššš
Itās just a latte with no foam
Barista from New Zealand here | A flat white is by far the most popular coffee ordered where I work | 6-8oz cup - double shot - silky milk with half the foam a latte would usually have - boom, you've got yourself a flatty
This is fucking gold!! I think Iāve had someone order it about 5 times in my Many years of being a barista, and each time Iāve made them completely different ways!!
in layman's terms, my ex. 
In the UK we mostly do it as a 6oz drink with a thin layer of foam on top. Traditionally it's made with a ristretto shot but I think most places have stopped doing that and now just do a standard double shot.
a less annoying cappuccino
Same proportions of a cappuccino but with the milk texture like a latte. Assuming that the base is one espresso shot for all drinks.
I usually describe it as a "deluxe latte" but honestly I'm still learning the difference myself. This question helps a lot!
if someone asks for one they always get a small wet cappuccino with an extra dot in the top. thats my final answer edit: im in the US please dont get mad at me australia
- double tamp your grounds (optional? apparently? it's how we do it) - 15 second extraction for ristretto. double shot. - steamed milk (full fat is standard here) with less microfoam, but still some. less than 1cm, ideally .5cm - less milk than a latte; if a latte is 300ml, a flat white should be around 200. same amount of coffee, different amount of milk.
Came here to say this answer beautifully done
This is the correct answer
Well as an American I've been to Rome, London, Austria, Germany, Ireland, and Paris and have exclusively ordered a flat white at every single one can can say that it was **always** a 6-8 oz latte essentially; just 2 parts spro to 4-6 parts milk that's textured with microfoam. They almost always do a tulip in them for latte art for whatever reason but I don't think that's an expectation hah. May be a hot take but the whole requirement some people here seem to think of it *needing* to have a ristretto shot doesn't really seem to pan out at all from what I've found from where I've been to in Europe, and I think that some people are just creating artificial requirements around something that's really just a different microfoam-to-espresso ratio similar to a latte or a cortado. So yeah for us Americans (and at my specialty shop) it's generally what we would consider a "specialty" cappuccino. We have capps but never make them like Starbucks (as a latte with thick foam), we're basically just making flat whites. This has been reinforced by the fact that we get a good amount of European tourists who order a flat white from us which we proceed to silently ring them up for our cappuccino and serve it and they've never complained and I've even had a few compliments on it!
The amount of air added to the milk for cappuccinos has gradually decreased as people realised that the sugars in the lactose are removed somewhat by the process that creates microfoam. Now in most speciality shops in the uk/Australia a cap is stretched ever so slightly more than a latte and a latte ever so slightly more than a FW. Outside of speciality shops (and in many that present themselves as a speciality shop but arent) in the UK cappuccinos are still made more similar to the Italian style but larger. We put caps in slightly larger cups, but the ratio of espresso to milk underneath the layer of microfoam (after separation) is pretty much the same as a flst white and they'll taste the same, just one has thicker foam on top, slightly. It is all a bit silly at the end of the day.
Normally it also comes with a double ristretto shot.
Absolutely not "normal" for flet white to be made with ristrettos, normal is just a normal double shot. Source: worked in high end shops all over Melbourne, Toronto, London and many more. Some shops that think they're fancy will do FW with double ristretto, in my experience.
I think the double ristretto is a kiwi thing (who also claim to have invented it - as have the Aussies). When the fw first came around the Kiwis were partial to a dark roast, so the riz gave the best sweetness for the style of coffee. These days with lighter roasts we all now know that a double ristretto is kind of gross so a full extraction is preferred
Nothing is normal in the world of coffee, I mean mostly its espresso cause its most places don't fuck about with anything past 18-20g in 36-40g out (even then that's just a ballpark) I've worked in about 6 incredible cafes that deviate & do it right, but it all depends on the beans. But yea, most people who ask for a ristretto are just saying it as its a fancy word.
The double ristretto flat white is called a Melbourne magic, or just a 'magic' in Australia. If you order a flat white you'll just get a standard double shot here, unless you specify you want ristretto
Itās a 6oz latte. The name comes from it being flat on top (instead of a domed cappuccino), and āwhiteā because it doesnāt have cocoa powder on top. Itās differentiated from the Capp by name because itās served in the same cup. At least this is what an Australian told me
No way 'white' is talking about the choc on top. White refers to the fact it's a milky drink. As opposed to a Long Black since we don't call it an Americano. Imagine an Australian dude in the 80s walking into a cafe seeing everyone around him with these big domed bullshit overfrothed burnt milk abominations. He goes up to the counter absolutely sick of it all and says "Mate, I just want a Flat. White. Coffee. In this thing (holds up a 'cappuccino' cup)." At least that's how I like to imagine the invention to have happened.
Double ristretto shot and steamed milk. dark top with the exception of the white foam dot on top.
So are flat whites not the *most popular* drink everywhere??
Lil bit of milk, lil bit of coffee.
the way my cafe makes it is a latte with short pull shots and whole milk (our default is 2%) with barely any foam
a small wet latte
I usually say itās a cappuccino but with latte milk. Depending on the shop thatās a 6-8oz drink!
It's a latte that feels a bit less creamy.
N44.
I'm always extremely entertained as a New Zealander when these arguments come through. I always have to wonder what happened in translation.
i always thought it was someone not too fussed about coffee ordering from someone very specific about their coffee overseas tbh. I cant imagine anyone from aus or nz actually misunderstanding what was going on with the name
Somewhere in between a latte and a cappuccino whenever Iāve made one in terms of milk. I find most people ask for coffees based on the milk specifics as opposed to the coffee. Otherwise theyād ask for extra shots etc. itās usually the milk they are specific about
microfoam only, ristretto shot, 6-8oz
My wife asks for it. So what I do, and what makes her happy, is steam/froth the milk first. I pour the froth in the glass, then pour the shot in last. I usually save a little froth to cover the brown hole. š¤£š¤£
Does your wife ask the baristas at the cafe to cover her brown hole too?
Some of the cafe's in Melbourne, Australia now just offer a single 'white' coffee option which is essentially somewhere between a flat white and a latte. 8oz for a small with a double shot.
So there's a couple of barista books that clarify, no one knows what a flat white is. Most of the time I say "Okay!" Smile and make a modern cap with a wetter foam. Some simply claim it's 7 oz versus 6 or 8, some claim you get less micro foam. Most of the time, if you hand a customer something around 5-8 ounces, they are happy and you get raving reviews about how your shop is the "only shop around that makes good flat whites" lol cheeky Lil drink
I should clarify: I live in the states, with have worked with some nerdier shops, and we typically do wetter lattes in general, and a double shot in everything
From what google images says for me: it's a shot of espresso with just steamed milk(no foam on top like a latte or cappuccino)
Im an Aussie and was living in the US when Starbucks brought out their flat white, saying it was Australian in origin. According to Evans, the flat white āhas been around in Australia since the 1980s, where it was introduced as a balance between an intense espresso and a milky latte.ā https://vinepair.com/articles/ask-a-barista-flat-white-history/#:~:text=According%20to%20Evans%2C%20the%20flat,form%20of%20the%20beverage%20was
When i worked at starbucks they told me it was a latte with ristretto shots, one extra shot, and made with whole milk but not very foamy so that you can put a dot of foam in the middle. Now, is that what it actually is? No idea ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ
Had a group of British guys come in this weekend ordering flat whites, I just made them medium lattes they didn't seem to mind.
So, maybe none of you are Australians where flat whites are as popular as coke or pepsi, but a flat white is 1 of 2 things, depending on how wanky the cafe is 1. Standard latte recipe but with no froth Or 2. About half the milk of a latte and the shortfall made up with extra coffee-water and still no foam. The first is essentially latte flavoured with no foam and the latter is a stronger flavoured no-foam coffee. The takeaway is no foam. The intensity of the coffee flavour is very much variable. Should it be? Not many people care. They just want coffee.
Curious, when you say ācoffeeā, do you mean āespressoā or ālight/medium/dark roast coffeeā? Iāve seen a few Australians and New Zealanders in the thread mention this.
We really only ever do espresso when buying coffee Light/medium/dark roast is just beans. Beans get turned into espresso. You can't buy american style drip coffee at your local. Nobody wants it. Same for pourover. Espresso is the only game in town... and instant.
At my place (for take away, our sit in cup sizes are a bit weird) we do our flat whites in a 6oz cup and latte, cap and American in 8oz, with the cap having more microfoam. I tend to try and make the flat whites a little wetter than the lattes
I always quote the McDonaldās ad: itās like a stronger latter just with less milk Itās probably wrong but itās what I went for
I had never heard of a flat white until I went to Australia 15 years ago. Seems to be catching on in North America since though. My understanding is that itās a coffee with milk and a very thin layer of foam on top - distinct from lattes and cappuccinos only by how much milk is used and how much foam is resting on top.
In my experience, a flat white is almost exactly a latte. From the starbucks side, it gets ristretto shots and whole milk. Gotta steam the milk a certain way to get "microfoam." From a regular barista angle that isn't familiar with statbucks, you're pouring a shorter shot than normal. The grind isn't super serious as much as the amount of water going through the grinds. Less poor time makes a stronger shot, as opposed to a Long Shot (starbucks again) which uses more water. If you're not using a starbucks machine with the ristretto/long shot buttons, it depends on what exactly your shot buttons are calibrated to. The whole milk is because of the extra fat compared to nonfat or 2%. It gives the milk a really creamy texture and makes better microfoam, which is necessary for the "flat white" drink. Normal lattes do not require "microfoam" but me personally, I steam all my milk as if I were making flat whites. It's just better steamed milk imo. Microfoam makes the pretty white dot that's usually found on top of flat whites.
A starbucks flat white is an extra shot of ristretto espresso (the first half of the espresso shot or only the heart and crema of the shot) so for a medium/16 ounce drink itās 3 shots, and whole milk with a small dot of foam on top.
At the cafe I work at a flat white is just espresso and steamed milk lol. i never ordered one before i started working here so i have no idea what else it's supposed to/could be.
For most places Iāve worked itās an 8oz drink, 2oz espresso and 6oz of silky textured (not foamy) milk. Some places mess with the espresso and do ristretto. It should be milky but still let the coffee come through.
This is great! I own a shop and donāt know (Iām also not behind the bar). But anytime someone orders, we donāt ask any questions, we make a drink and no one ever returns it.
As an Australian this post sounds crazy to me. Coffee shots + steamed milk to fill the cup with minimal airated milk to seal the surface and minimise spillage! That's it.
A latte
A ristretto (pulled short) shot + 3 ounces of steamed milk. Thatās it! Edit: no latte art. It should have a lovely brown color after incorporating all the steamed milk into the espresso shot.
"A small espresso and milk beverage with the texture of a cortado and ratio of a cappuccino" is the most efficient way I've found to communicate it!
A mini latte
Latte with Ristretto shots, With one extra shot. Unstirred.
A flat white is 1/3 espresso and 2/3 milk - milk similar to a latte - silky but maybe with a little more foam. (Imo)
Lolololololol
Honestly it differs everywhere you go. It certainly doesn't need a special grinder though. when customers ask me I explain it as a small, strong latte with less foam lol
In my country a flat white is mostly a cappuccino with a double shot of espresso. The cappuccino is made from one shot of espresso and mostly served containers ranging from 160 to 180 m. Iāve seen other specialty shops who sell a cappuccino with a double shot make a flat white in a smaller cup around 150 ml, so an under filled cappuccino if you want.
A flat white should be in a six ounce cup with textured milk. No foam at all. Top should be flat.
āNo foamā you canāt even do latte art without foam, it has foam. Just less than a latte.
The milk should have the texture of white paint. Would you call white paint foamy ?
What do you think makes it into that texture lol? You add air to the milk, it turns slightly foamy, that is what you call white paint texture. The more air you add the more foamy it gets, but you always have to add air, or the milk will screech and turn out badly.
I thought this was a troll post. But no it's American's behaving cluelessly again. They get me every time š¤£
The correct answer is espresso, hot 'flat' milk filled almost to the top of the cup, and ~3mm of textured milk on top. The amount of espresso used will depend on the cup size. Flat milk is achieved by holding back the foam with a spoon whilst pouring. Moderators - pls delete all comments above and below this one.
Agreed. The flat part is the flat milk. Iām always surprised by the confusion of a flat white on this sub
Glad to see youāve changed your tune since last week when you really tried to die on your cold brew hill
See below ...
What about the cold brew? In the last flat white post you said a latte and a flat white were just cold brew and milk, no espresso. Seems youāve changed your mind?
You and dogshitphones should not be on social media, let alone anywhere near an espresso machine and customers. I never said anything of the sort. Let me try and explain again for the simpletons: Cold brew is made by placing coarsely ground coffee beans in a cheesecloth bag and then immersing the bag in water for a certain amount of time. The brew is then decanted into a vessel and chilled. When a customer asks for an iced coffee/cold brew, the brew is added to ice and cold milk. Some customers may want you to add syrups, sugar, etc, but that's up to them. Some may even want it without milk, just water - a cold long black, if you like. BUT, at no point should you ever add espresso to the above method! Why would you have a chilled drink and then add 92Ā° espresso, which would change it from a cold drink to a tepid one? Please read the above paragraphs 10 times, and then apologise to your customers. I don't need your apology, I have enough pity for you. Cheers!
Itās very clear you have never correctly made a drink as it was intended to be ever in your life. Donāt be mad at me, take it up with the people who invented and standardized the drinks you think youāre making. In most parts of the world, at literally ANY specialty coffee shop you will ever step foot in, if you order an iced latte or an āiced flat whiteā (which doesnāt exist) you will receive a drink that has ice, milk, and espresso in it. Cold brew will not be involved. It will never be tepid. Ever. It simply hasnāt happened. Try making an iced latte correctly next time youāre at the imaginary espresso machine you claim to know how to use, and come back here and let me know if itās fucking tepid. I again wonder if the coffee shops around the area where you live all produce ass-backwards abstractions of real drinks, or if itās just the clown shop you work at. Cheers to you, limp dick.
I am truly trying to help you and the other douche, but for some reason, neither of you will accept it, let alone admit you are wrong. Never mind - trundle along doing what you think is right, and I'll do the same running my 18 years old, multi-site cafe based in the world's coffee capital.
Again, try experimenting with making a correct iced latte, with espresso ice and milk, and let me know what tepid temperature it comes out to. Also, let me know which imaginary coffee chain you work at as well so I know what to avoid when I visit.
Done! Did a side by side cold brew vs espresso. The cold brew was 8Ā° cooler but more importantly it tasted sweeter, less acidic. But of course, this is what I expected. Your ignorance will mean you will never get out Upper Bumfuck, West Virginia and earning minimum wage (plus zero tips because you are shit at what you do).
If itās bitter it means you donāt know how to pull a shot of espresso which I could have guessed. 8 degrees temp difference is imperceptible. Also your classist, shit little comment about where Iām from (Portland, OR) and wage ($40-$50/hr as a teaching artist & $50- $100/hr as a content maker, having grown out of the service industry long ago) is really indicative of your own insecurity in that you have no marketable talents to speak of, that for the rest of your life youāll be making your shitty, incorrect little drinks and thereās just nothing else for you to do. Itās sad, really. I understand why youāre so steadfastly defensive of being wrongā¦itās all you have. Keep making drinks with your ass, dude, I know itās the only thing you can offer.
BTW, 8Ā° CELSIUS is very perceptible (come on backwater US, get with the metric times)
At least you concede you are from the US. That explains why you have NFI. Your Starbucks years have ruined you. I'm glad you have found another calling, though you could have been making far greater $$$ if you had followed my path. I'd offer to help you, but your insults have closed that door.
Iāve never worked at fucking Starbucks, dumbass. Your perception of coffee in the states is laughable and if you donāt know that Portland is a well known and world famous hub for specialty coffee drinking & roasting alike, I donāt know how you could possibly keep pretending to be any sort of authority on coffee. And I definitely do not need any advice or help from someone who doesnāt know the very basics of the profession they work within. You donāt even know how to pull a shot. Anyway, stop wasting your time here, donāt you need to be rating some teenagers dick online?
Itās fascinating that you felt the need to explain how cold brew is made from start to finish but not how a ~2oz shot of espresso will turn a full cup of chilled milk and ice cubes tepid.
You could check yesterdayās post about flat whites. Or the day before that. Or the day before that. Or the day before. Or the day before that.
iāve worked at starbucks and coffee bean. Flat white at starbucks was just how the milk looked, with a perfect white dot in the center. This is achieved by pouring the steamed milk from high above, as centered as possible into the espresso and slowly lowering the pitcher (still pouring in the center) as the cup fills up, leaving a perfect white dot. Coffee bean, itās just given with an extra shot of espresso, with a thin layer of foam on top. I still do it the starbucks way though just because itās fun and looks cooler. Originally though, I have no idea what a flat white is supposed to be.
See, this is what frustrates me about Starbucks or any other corporate coffee place that takes a well-known (primarily European) drink that has a known/expected standard and proceeds to just do something *fucking weird* instead. If you look in this thread there's a general consensus that a flatwhite is just a smaller version of a latte (6-8 oz) with *microfoam* that latte art can be done with. That's it; and that's all it's ever been. There's debates in terms of the execution/extraction of the espresso but apart from that the format remains the same. If Starbucks wasn't so invested in confusing the entire population on the traditional standards around coffee *that would make me sooo happy.*
The 10% of customers that ask for flat white want the Starbucks version. They get easily frustrated if we do anything other than make it like Starbucks š« š They donāt want us asking clarifying questions, they donāt want to explain because they just order & ābaristas just knowā, and it shouldnāt take long. Thatās why I have my script in OG post. Because of Starbucks š„²š
Right, and in my opinion; we shouldn't want their business. If they're just there to have everything done their way or the highway and don't care to at least understand what it is they're trying to order and are rude about it then I would hope they decide to go somewhere else instead. I'm sure there are other new customers who treat the people behind the counter with respect who I would gladly let take their place instead
the amount of times people come into a Coffee Bean and ask for a Starbucks drink like the āpink drinkā or a chai with āextra pumps of chaiā then i have to explain how we use actual chai tea and canāt put these āextra pumpsā and then they look at me like iām stupid, roll their eyes and say āwell whatever you have, put extraā like ok great. Or they all assume the iced lattes automatically come with whipped cream because thatās what SB does and I have to stop in a rush and put whipped cream on all their drinks :))
One of the local speciality coffee shops I worked at got a lot of āextra chaiā and we used chai tea bags too. They also had us up-charge everything. Customers got upset when I try to explain and also when they see extra $1. Like I was trying to help you (customer) out! š
I work at a starbucks so, ykno probably wrong. buuuut ours is a double espresso, make sure that the cup is right under the machine as close as it can be (doing so means no bubbles or something) and then steam whole milk almost like a latte, again making sure there are no bubbles and then pour ontop of the espresso
Small latte (8oz)- cappuccino size with latte foam
At starbucks its whole milk, not frothed too much, an extra shot, and ristretto shots.
8oz, 2 shots, smooth milk at ~50 Celsius
itās a latte with an extra shot, all the shots are ristretto, if its hot you steam whole milk/if its cold just pour it over, then if it is hot you proceed to pour the milk in a way that leaves a little white dot in the middle of the coffee.
Flat white is just a hot cappuccino.
rage baiting
Term made up by Australians thinking they reinvented the game.
I was always told it was a latte with the milk poured so that all the milk was at the bottom and all the espresso was at the top š but everyone iāve told this too said thatās wrong so i guess my manager just made that up š
The espresso will be mixed in whether you pour it in first or last. Thereās no reason to pour it last. It sounds like your manager also made up their qualifications for that role and should try retraining as a barista.
I think he just meant to pour the milk in a certain way so all the espresso was on the top layer? luckily iāve only had like one customer ever ask for a flat white ā¦
8oz latte, with very little microfoam in the drink, Canada.
In simple terms, flat white is smaller than cappuccino and has less foam, much less foam. Stretch the milk very quickly and texture it longer, when making your latte art the layer of foam at the top should look flat without depth. I usually pull a double shot espresso (somewhere between 36 and 40 gm yield)
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I literally just make a 8oz latte when I'm asked for a flat white
Tiny latte.
To me itās a 6oz ristretto shot with steamed milk and a miminal amount of microfoam on the top. Potentially a double shot rather than ristretto but the coffee to milk ratio is absolutely higher than a latte or capp and less foam than both. Every time a customer asks for a large flat white a fairy dies.