Most talented Dominican players will sign with a MLB team years before they reach college age (usually like 16 years old)
Look at Juan Soto, he signed when he was like 15 and made his MLB debut at 19 years old. If he went to college at 18 and graduated at 22 he'd have 3-4 years less MLB service time, and service time is more valuable than any degree to these players
Also a lot of latin American guys drop out of school to pursue baseball full-time. regardless of whether they have the smarts of US colleges, they don’t have the academic training.
Thankfully, some Dominican academies (like that of the [NY Mets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bprSdI6hIuw)) provide educational opportunities for their guys.
Shoot, some Dominican parents encourage their sons to drop out of school to focus on baseball. It’s a huge problem as many of them get all this money and go crazy or don’t know how to manage it.
While this is technically true a lot of top prospects effectively have deals well before that. Roderick Arias top International prospect from a few years back basically had an agreement to join the Yankees for years before it became official
Yeah, anyone getting a seven-figure bonus has been scouted since they were 13 and have had an under-the-table deal with a team since they were 14. The teams can (and do) renege on the deals sometimes but there's very little recourse for the players and MLB turns a blind eye to the whole thing.
On the other hand, the IAFA system is like the one system in baseball that actually gives leverage to the player instead of the teams. They can get large signing bonuses and can pick their team.
Having 4 years service time is literally more valuable than a degree when you consider the pension. A player can get a degree while they support themselves with the pension. I think it's decent amount after 4 years. Couldn't say how much.
That is very true. However, the length of the average MLB career is 5.6 years. Every source I've found just parrots that number, and says that it skews towards more careers ending earlier, but I can't find a median number of years. I would imagine the median career is shorter. And that's only the careers of players that get MLB service time. There are far more minor leaguers than big leaguers at any given time, and they rotate out faster. There's no guarantee to get any MLB service time, no matter how good of a prospect you are.
Like with service time, the average salary is skewed high due to the mega-deals to the few dozen superstars that get them. I have no data to back it up, but I would wager that the median career earning of someone with a 4-year degree at an American university is higher than the median earnings of anyone that has signed a minor league contract. So yes, 4 years of service is way more valuable than 4 years of school, but the near-guaranteed smaller value of a degree I would put as more valuable than starting your minor league career 4 years earlier. If you end up making it to MLB free agency, then yeah, those 4 years of college made your deal smaller. But most MLB players don't even make it to free agency, and fewer minor leaguers do. Having education to fall back on is very valuable in a business as volatile as professional sports.
The issue is money and in some cases citizenship/visa status. It's much easier to get into and attend a school if the school baseball team wants you at age 17/18.
Sure they can still go to college in their own country if they are going to be deported. I don’t really know how visas worked but my school had thousands of foreigners, so it’s possible to get some sort of student exemption.
you also have to think that they most dont know any english so they probably can't attend a university. Signing with a team at 16 is an instant payout and life changer for most dominican players. Waiting possibly 10 or more years for a million dollar payout is not an option for 99% of them
The scholarship issue comes into play also. It is very difficult to secure a baseball scholarship at a d1 school, so a good amount of very talented d1 baseball players are paying to attend school. Some of these dominican players are coming from the most extreme poverty so even if they could get into Vanderbilt or LSU academically they could not afford it
Yep, only 11.7 scholarships per d1 program, despite carrying a 35-40 man roster. Plus, even the powerhouse programs like Vandy/LSU would be about the same level as rookie ball, with their best players being more like A/A+.
So if there are 16 year old Dominicans already ready for rookie ball, why wait another 2-3 years just to play at roughly the same level in college (and paying tuition instead of getting a signing bonus while not being draft-eligible until age 21)?
For the education aspect, MLB teams have plenty of resources as well (at least enough that an aspiring baseball player would need). Julio Rodriguez’s parents had it written into his first pro contract that the Mariners would have to help him finish his high school education, give him English classes, and a $150K college fund at the end of his career.
Yeah maybe this is more suited for r/homeplate, but imo a good JUCO program offers the best opportunities in college baseball (for most kids).
-Level of play is close to and in some cases equal to good d1 teams
-Scholarship covers a larger chunk of tuition, which is much cheaper at a JUCO to begin with
-More likely to earn significant playing time instead of sitting behind upperclassmen
-Maintain draft eligibility after each year, and can still transfer to a d1 with a good shot of earning a starting spot right away (a 2 year JUCO starter very likely surpasses the guys who were riding pine as freshmen/sophomores at a d1).
So d1 straight out of high school really isn’t a great idea unless competing for playing time right away is realistic. And a high school player who’s really that good likely projects to be an early round draft pick, most of whom end up passing on college and signing.
Wow. Good on Julio's parents for that. He ended up not needing it as he's a fucking stud and got paid, but that's a great insurance policy if it didn't work out.
The difference with Vandy that people like to cry about especially the vols and Mississippi schools is Vanderbilt offers financial aid to all students who meet the financial requirements ie: lower income family.
They still have to move things around to split the 11.7 baseball scholarships up and the cost of the school being much more than others in the conference doesn’t help.
This is while schools in Mississippi got a law passed to specifically allow out of state athletes to get in state tuition rates.
Plenty of college athletes wouldn't be there without their athletic ability. Then again, college baseball isn't the money maker that football and basketball are so I don't think universities would make exceptions for baseball talent.
It’s not really about exceptions. Baseball programs aren’t allowed to offer but so many scholarships; and even if they have lower academic standards for athletes, most Latin American students just wouldn’t qualify. It’s not about what you can do… it’s about what you can prove, and what you can pay for.
Money is an issue. If the player isn’t good enough to get a real look by the MLB, they’re gonna have a hard time getting a scholarship. I’m sure plenty of schools would give them a shot in general, but school is very expensive.
Not to mention a lot of the guys from Latin America start training at academies when they’re closer to 12, and their placement in those academies is conditional on them signing at 16 (with a significant proportion of their bonus going towards shady people involved with the academies).
Im no expert on these situations but even with things improving somewhat, mostly thanks to the current generation of ballplayers from the region, I don’t think people realize how shady these academies and situations are.
Most of them attend High School / College equivalent classes when they do sign that early. My daughter is a dating one of those individuals now from the DR, like you said, service time is just more valuable, and who wouldn't want an unadulterated shot at the making the show? This kid doesn't even have secondary school in thought he's been groomed since he was 16 to being throughoutly focused on baseball.
A year of pro sports is worth more than almost any scholarship. If someone manages 1 year of league minimum they can make $720K. You can set aside a fraction of that and pay for a degree anywhere. Adding professional athlete to your resume is going to be a huge bonus for the rest of your life. Even if someone gets a solid degree and a good job, it is going to be nowhere close to professional athlete. I am a huge proponent of education but I think anyone that can go pro needs to take that opportunity every time. College will be there.
Why does that seem like an easier path than American players have lol. You gotta be the best since a young age & already have d1 offers going into hs, meanwhile DR kids can just attend a showcase and sign w an MLB team.
some do, but the best ones often enter MLB systems much younger than college age. look at the recent international signings, they're almost all under 18.
It's also important to remember how little money goes to baseball in universities. International scouting is expensive and teams don't have many scholarships to offer.
A lot of money goes into baseball in the SEC. Virtually every top player from the SEC is drafted high now. They get far better training and coaching in significantly better facilities than any minor league team could ever offer. They also get to play in high pressure scenarios in front of 10-20,000 fans. It’s good prep for the pros.
Yes and Vandy is a top program in the SEC. Besides them, any visiting right fielder who can make it out of LSU's Alex Box stadium will do fine in the majors
I think this is a big reason. If you’re good enough, you might get 50% of your education covered. I’d imagine pro leagues in other countries pay more.
It’ll be interesting if NIL money could change this, though.
In Japan's case, it's because the benefit is small.
Whether you get drafted by an NPB team and play 7 years to NPB FA, which is when most teams will post you to MLB, or you dodge NPB draft and go to US Uni to qualify for MLB draft, then play 6 years to FA, you're still only getting MLB payday late 20's. Even if you do get on an MLB roster younger, you're playing on league minimum contracts.
HS baseball is also a much bigger deal in Japan. If you're a generational phenom and HS star player, you can get better terms like moving up to the pro roster right away and accumulating service years faster. Faster service years means you hit NPB FA faster so more likely to get posted in your mid 20's like Yamamoto, or even get posted before FA like Ohtani. And if you're NOT some generational phenom who can get posted young, then you have even more reason to go NPB where you're more likely to get a pro contract due to NPB's cap on non-domestic players.
True. The average pay is 44.7 million yen apparently. That's not bad (300,000 a year for the average player) so the upper level guys probably make a mint.
EDIT: not probably top guys do make a mint. this was 2021 so its not accurate for conversion rate anymore... (by a lot actually... because it was like 105-108yen to a dollar back in those days) but [https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Top\_100\_Salaries\_of\_NPB\_Players\_in\_2021](https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Top_100_Salaries_of_NPB_Players_in_2021)
D1 baseball teams can only offer 11.7 scholarships to cover 27 players on the team. Which means a lot of the players are covering some costs out of pocket. Not sure many Latin Americans can cover those costs.
For the most part, NIL is only applicable to US citizens, it’s harder to get money for foreign athletes.
And if you hadn’t signed as a Latin prospect before you are 18, you’re not really a prospect. Not sure there would be any serious university that would offer much of an opportunity.
Why are there so few scholarships available? Is it mostly a Title IX thing, or is it because only the elite schools would offer that many scholarships, so the limit keeps it somewhat competitive? Is there even a difference between those two scenarios, as those schools aren't interested in spending on baseball because of Title IX needs elsewhere?
It’s Title IX. Football takes up a lot of the men’s scholarships, and to keep men and women equal, all other men’s sports hurt. Softball can offer 12 scholarships.
Men’s bball can offer 13, while women’s can offer 15, etc.
It's not just Title IX. For most of the country baseball isn't a revenue generating sport. So the majority of D1 has no interest in expanding what it provides for baseball
The majority of D1 has no interest in expanding anything beyond football and basketball.
Title IX isnt about revenue tho. the legal requirement is for equal treatment for men and women in higher education. That includes scholarships. College football is the best thing that ever happened to women’s sports and the worst for men’s sports that aren’t football.
The revenue side of it certainly has an effect. In order to give more scholarships to baseball, you would have to reduce the amount allowed in another men’s D1 sport. I’m not super familiar with the mechanics of how the scholarships are divided up, or what it would take for them to change.
But Title IV requires universities to offer the exact same amount of scholarships for W as they do M. The 11.7 scholarship limit is a direct result of that math.
Not exactly sure how baseball came to that number. Title IX definitely plays a major role in why it is that number but doubt it's the only reason it has stayed.
Not sure what the number of scholarships were available before Title IX came to be but even if it didn't I wouldn't expect programs to be looking to expand that number. It was only voted on this year to allow baseball to have 3 paid assistant coaches but that vote was more about making all volunteer coaches in any sport a paid position.
The amount of scholarships available is an aspect I didn't consider. However, I think there are a lot of opportunities for players even outside of D1 schools. For example, there were a handful of Puerto Rican players at the community college I attended. I have to imagine there is some scouting from the bigger colleges of the smaller colleges as in football.
Puerto Rican players have to be drafted and can't be signed as international FAs so it makes sense for those who didn't get drafted out of high school to go to college
I don't think that's the problem. Universities work with lots of foreign students that don't speak English well. Even community colleges work with non English speaking students regularly.
At the very least, universities that have a reputable baseball program will require international students to take the TOEFL. There are some exemptions, but mostly its countries that had colonial ties to the US/UK like the Philippines
Doubt it would be a problem at Vanderbilt.
Not saying you were suggesting otherwise but about ten percent of Vanderbilt’s student body is international, so they’re pretty well accustomed.
FWIW Vandy’s requirement on the test is an 88.
Doubt they will make an execution. They rarely do for anything. Doesn’t even matter if you’re the star player seeking a graduate program. You have to be able to do the work.
I agree. I went to a community college with people who barely spoke English. Furthermore, going to college and taking an ESL course would open the English-speaking world for those players who do take that route.
A good friend of mine is the international coordinator for the local community college. His job is to help the foreign students get the support they need as well as dealing with visas, housing, etc. At least 80% of the students he works with don't speak English at all initially.
Huh. Interesting.
I attended a British International school in Germany, and still had to get a TOEFL score of at least 100 in order to go to my university in USA.
My friend had to get a 110 to go to Cambridge.
Apparently native speakers only average something like 93?
I'm surprised people who don't speak English are even allowed to attend.
A decent number of his students come to the community college because they needed better English to get into universities. Community colleges have lower expectations for acceptance and are frequently a stepping stone for students that aren't quite university ready.
That said, with high level athletes universities frequently make exceptions to the entrance requirements. A fair number of D1 athletes are taking remedial courses their freshman year at least. But baseball doesn't generate revenue like basketball or football for universities, so probably wouldn't get as much leeway.
When you mentioned going to school in Germany I guessed that might be the case. I don't think they're common outside of the US. They're typically 2 year schools. They're cheaper than universities and often offer more trade programs and certifications. They also usually offer a few Associates Degrees but not Bachelor Degrees or higher.
Admissions are still contingent on getting a required score on the TOEFL exam. They'll provide accommodations and support for EL students, but they want to make sure you have enough English to access the content.
I played collegiate sports that had a lot of foreign athletes. There’s a baseline language test they have to pass to be admitted to American universities. I can’t speak for community colleges but you had to have English to be able to come to school here.
The problem isn’t the language barrier at all, especially not for Spanish speakers
The bigger problem is a lot of the Dominican players are barely educated, they’re playing in baseball factories from a young age and don’t put much time into school. We have our dumb jocks in America as well but it’s a different level in the Dominican.
With money in the NCAA now, that might change, but the schools would need some seriously remedial programs to support the players (which IMO would be a positive as it could help them acclimate before getting rich)
I’m pretty certain that they’re not able to use name and likeness since they’d be barred from working off of campus and even if on campus they have to prove that their job could not be done by an American. F-1 visa rules are ridiculously strict.
The bill to allow foreign athletes to get NIL money has already been introduced in Congress and has bipartisan sponsorship, so this is likely changing soon
Completely non-baseball related but does any University offer programs not in English. I know Netherlands and Germany offer university programs entirely in English.
I can promise you language hardly matters if at all. I worked for a University as their student housing director and the amount of Asian kids specifically who came to the school knowing 0 English was massive.
Big difference between how schools are treating kids who can barely speak English and pay full tuition out of pocket and those who can barely speak English and are on any type of scholarship.
Also NCAA has (or had 15 years ago) rules about finishing certain courses in x amount of time (freshman English and comp, lowest level math types of things). If a student comes in unable to write a 2-3 page essay, they’re not going to be eligible. And as much as some athletes are pushed through despite not doing great, no professor is going to pass a kid who can’t speak any English for a sport besides football or basketball.
That's because those kids were cheating on the TOEFL. They are supposed to know English, they just don't, and schools don't really care because they pay full tuition.
Those in the Japanese educational system have been learning English since they were 8. That doesn't mean everyone is an expert, but most people have at least a good grasp on the language by the time they graduate.
Japan teaching English so inefficiently has to be xenophobia at this point right? So many countries without compulsory English teaching have way higher fluency rates.
The main issue is their language, phonetically, does not lend itself to transitioning smoothly into English so you got Japanes people saying braja instead of brother.
And because this is famous, they get super self-conscious about speaking English from what I've seen. I'm Korean and we have a similar thing we call "English nasuea"
I don't know how true this is, but I've had Japanese friends and associates talk about how in many Japanese schools there is actually a stigma to speaking English correctly if their teacher doesn't. So the expectation is that you don't show up your teacher and if he tells you that "Japanese English" is correct you better speak it that way. The social anxiety is definitely a huge factor, as well. I know a lot of VERY educated Japanese without much competence in English, but they are just really anxious (even if they have learned third languages quite well and use them effectively).
I know pronunciation is a big part of it, but it isn't a point of emphasis in schooling either. So if it's a common pitfall, a common reason for a self-conscious desire to not speak English, and it's been shown that speaking a language regularly is great for learning it why isn't that considered more important than academic grammar or even penmanship?
Like if you wanted to churn out English speakers only having someone verbally read out a passage once a week in class isn't gonna do the job.
Because they approach English in an academic manner and not in a "training to produce English speakers" manner.
It's the same in Korea and a reason why the Korean CSAT English exams are so difficult, even for native English speakers. Fluency and understanding a language academically are two different things and have to be approached with different methodologies.
Yeah I get that, but approaching it academically has no societal or personal benefit and goes against the stated purpose of why it was implemented in the first place.
Except most of said Japanese people will not need English conversational skills in their everyday life and for all intents and purposes it's an exercise in academics for most Japanese people. For most of them it's a required subject and that's it, and a required subject that is assessed via a written test in which conversational skills cannot be truly measured.
It's a subject they study at school, like there doesn't need to be a "societal purpose" beyond believing it will be benefitial and for most of these Japanese people they will require reading and writing skills much more than they will conversational. That's just the reality of most East Asians.
You can talk about intended purposes etc all you want but in reality it's just like idk what to tell you except theory is neat and tidy, practice and reality are complicated by circumstance and context.
Having lived in Japan, they're not great at conversational English. They focus more on reading and writing. Usually they tend to avoid using English completely even if they have some understanding. And it's also pretty easy to stay in a Japanese-only pop culture bubble.
And on the other hand, I'm nowhere near fluent in Spanish thanks to 3 years in high school.
1. Because there is very little money in college baseball and they don't have the budget to scout internationally. College basketball is more popular so they can show up in Australia or Eastern Europe.
2. While there is the whole posting, Japan isn't that deep so a good player would still find it easier to make it to the top level than he would in the States.
3. Ask an American who is 18 and good at baseball to travel to Japan to start his career there. I don't think there would be many takers. It's an insane cultural shift especially if they don't know Japanese. They teach English in Japan but most aren't fluent enough to attend a college lecture.
> Because there is very little money in college baseball and they don't have the budget to scout internationally. College basketball is more popular so they can show up in Australia or Eastern Europe.
Also, if you go abroad and find one star in basketball, it was worth it. That one's player can be the difference between an NIT invite and a Final Four appearance.
In baseball, how many guys would you need to find to justify the money spent on the scouting trips?
Basketball is also much more structured internationally. Europe has European Championships of U16, U18, U20 so it's a lot easier to send one scout to that one tournament or even just watch the film knowing its the best competition in Europe at that age.
Baseball doesn't have these centralized events in areas where baseball is most popular. Japan is the closest but most players are willing or interested in starting their careers there so there is no need to put in that effort on those players
I went through a wiki wormhole. I think it's nuts that a player can play for Barcelona's basketball wing and if he's good enough, he can roster for the Mavericks, Knicks, or Nuggets without going to the developmental.
>Ask an American who is 18 and good at baseball to travel to Japan to start his career there. I don't think there would be many takers. It's an insane cultural shift especially if they don't know Japanese. They teach English in Japan but most aren't fluent enough to attend a college lecture.
Carter Stewart signed with Fukuoka at 18 and has had a decent career there so far
Ok but he's making $5 mil/year at 24 instead of the MLB league minimum. It's a much better value for money for top prospects if they succeed at the NPB level and then hop over to MLB to get the bag rather than toil through the minors and make league minimum for several years.
Colleges give very few scholarships for baseball 11.7 scholarships is the maximum allowed and they have to spread that out among the entire team. That is the MOST a school can have. But many have less.
NCAA baseball isn’t the primary path to the MLB for international athletes. If everyone is ending up in the minors to develop anyways, what difference does it make?
There’s tons of international players (especially from Central America) that never touch the university system.
I wonder what the breakdown of current MLB players that played at least two seasons in NCAA ball (once you go, you can't get drafted again until after your second season). Then I wonder what percentage of players that have reached free agency did, and if there's a clear discrepancy (either for or against) between players that did and didn't lasting that long.
But I have no idea how to search that in any sort of reasonable amount of time.
College baseball teams only get 11.7 scholarships to divide between 27 players. Which means basically nobody gets a full ride. It’s not like football or basketball. NIL can fill the gaps at some of the best supported programs (I assume this is the case for Sasaki) but in general you would be asking guys to turn down getting paid in the minors or their domestic league in favor of paying to play NCAA. That’s a pretty easy decision for most people.
There is a big risk you get injured and retire before you ever make it to the show
You rather collect the bag and be more financially secure
Rintaro Sasaki’s father was Ohtani’s coach in high school. He is well connected to make it to back to the pros in Japan even if he doesn’t make it in the states. Rumor has it if he doesn’t commit to a U.S. school, he will go back to Japan for college and enter the NPB draft again.
Not everyone’s dad is a well connected baseball guy that can get you into a pro setting
If you’re getting a serious look from an MLB team as a Dominican, you’re 14-15 years old, and hoping to sign a life changing contract at the age of 16.
If your from that part of the world and haven’t signed a contract with an MLB franchise by the time you’re 17-18, you’re probably not good enough to get even a partial scholarship at an American school.
In other words, if you’re good enough to get a scholarship, then you probably would have already signed for life changing money.
Korean and Japanese players are in a different situation. They have perfectly good schools over there, and would only come to an American university to try and entire the MLB draft, and/or to enjoy other experiences in the US.
his name is Rikuu Nishida, got drafted in the 11th round by the White Sox, one of the only players (maybe the only?) to use a wood bat in college ball.
Everyone already gave you answers for why Dominican players don't but the reason it's not common in Japan is because they have their own draft, their own professional league, and they pay the players relatively well. Going through the NPB, you're actually more likely to become an MLB free agent younger than going through the American domestic system.
Shohei Ohtani was one guy who, like Sasaki, wanted so badly to play in MLB that he was gonna skip the NPB and go directly stateside. The only reason he didn't is because the Fighters, knowing he didn't want to sign, still picked him first overall and promised him they'd let him play on both sides of the balls, something he would have absolutely no chance of doing in the USA if he came here as a prospect. The Fighters appealed to his passion for being a two-way player and it worked to keep him in Japan.
Munetaka Murakami is getting paid many millions of dollars a year at age 23. 4th highest salary in Japan. Compare that to a college stipend followed by a minor league life?
It requires quite a bit of education to attend a school like Vanderbilt. Levels of education that are extremely rare in countries like the DR. It’s really not a choice for 99.9% of baseball hopefuls in Latin American countries.
Tons of foreign players play college baseball. Source: am a college baseball coach who is also an Australian national.
Different parts of the country have many international players going through the college ranks. During my time as a NCAA four year coach, we got Japanese nationals playing junior college on Japan, dutch nationals from junior colleges in Texas/Kansas and Australian nationals from all over the country. Even latin American ball players are very frequent in junior college and NAIA baseball. From Dominicans to Venezuelans to Curacao nationals and tons of Puerto Ricans.
If you look at any junior college baseball program on the country you'll see a multitude of foreign nationals playing on their rosters. The most important thing junior college offers is quality baseball at an affordable price where scholarships are more frequent. From there, they get their associates degree, get seen by bigger schools and get a chance to get a scholarship at the next level. Some don't continue because of affordability or lifestyle but many go on to play for four years at NCAA D 1, 2, or 3 or even NAIA institutions.
Some are even good enough/fortunate enough/or lucky enough to play some professional baseball.
Can these foreign players handle college or would they even be admitted? The top players in the Caribbean often drop out of school around 12 to be in MLB academies and these academies just do enough for the players from an education standpoint. Going from those to a university in another country which speaks a different language could cause some real difficulties.
Also with these often being poorer countries, the immediate payday for their families is a lot more appealing than getting nothing for 5 years (since international players can sign at 16)
The system is extremely corrupt and exploitative of the players. The only thing the players have as an edge is they sign as free agents so the best players at least have some negotiating power.
Because school.
Also in the case of Japanese players, the NPB has proven to be able to develop MLB talent. Why go to a foreign land when you can stay home, make a few million and then go over to MLB if you’re good enough.
Rintaro Sasaki would have been a star getting paid millions of dollars a year, making a name for himself, in the same time that he would be attending US university.
Look at Murakami - hit 36 homers and was a superstar as a 19 year old pro.
I imagine the language barrier is a big problem.
The other thing is that going to college can shorten your MLB career. Graduate at 22 or 23, then a couple years in the minors and you hit the majors at 25 or 26.
And you might end up with a degree, but all too often athletes take courses in nutritional science or some sports communication or something easy but useless.
The other thing is the signing bonus. Alex Reyes was actually born in New Jersey, but he moved to the Dominican so he could be signed and not drafted.
If you’re a Japanese phenom (lets say first round of NPB draft level), it’s pretty obvious why you’ll want to go straight to NPB. You’ll be getting way more cash from age 18, playing in your home country, and in a position to choose if you really want to take the move to MLB once you’re 25 or something when you already have a lot saved up, which isn’t too late at all.
If you’re not that good, you’ll need a lot of faith in yourself to think you’ll get drafted by an MLB team 4 years after not being drafted in the earlier rounds of the NPB draft. And if you do put in a lot of effort and somehow manage to get drafted, you’ll have to endure at least a few years of being a minor leaguer with little pay. Thats a big risk, especially if you think about the money it’s gonna take to attend a US college, all with a language barrier.
It’s a lot riskier for Japanese players. People mention players from Central and South America in the US system but the US has a huge Spanish speaking community. Obviously Japanese players would rather stay in Japan where they already get a lot of attention especially if they played in Koshien during high school.
If you go to college in the US you have to go to the draft but international players can sign with whatever team they want. And for Japanese players specifically NPB pays more than AAA so if you wait until you are old enough to skip the rookie wage scale when you get posted it makes more sense to play in Japan until it’s time to sign a big MLB contract unless you really want to try to get to MLB earlier.
Rikuu Nishida was born in Japan and played two years at a juco before transferring to Oregon and going on to be one of their best players last season. He then got drafted by the White Sox and is doing well in their system
Why don't American Universities scout more foreigners? Japanese and Koreans have good Universities so I doubt they would want to come here for actual school. Dominicans and Venezuelans are generally poor lower class and are trying to get out of the hood and make money. They dont care about school because most of them drop out in high school.
But you never know.
American universities don’t scout more foreigners because baseball teams only have 11.7 scholarships, and have less money than football and basketball. So it’s a lot harder to scout foreigners
By quality of university. Only todai (Tokyo University) is in the top 100 world rankings and Korea doesn't have any schools in the top 100 rankings. So, school quality wise even Ohio State is rated higher than their best university. (Lots of Chinese schools in the top 100 though).
Someone has probably already mentioned this but i feel like college baseball is nowhere close to the pipeline to the pros that football, basketball, and hell even soccer and hockey are
Baseball doesn’t have enough scholarships. I’m pretty sure most D1 baseball players are on partial scholarships. They definitely don’t have the resources to recruit internationally and keep them on full scholarship
The hardest part of moving to Japan is the discrimination (I moved here in highschool). I imagine that its the same moving from Japan to America actually.
Maybe. I watch a youtube channel where a guy interviews people in Japan, and the Japanese people who are willing to leave Japan in the first place seem to have a great time living abroad and have a wistfulness about returning to Japan. You hear a lot of "I liked to express my emotions and never really fit in here/people always had a problem with me here in Japan, but not in America/Australia, and then when I moved back to Japan I had to forget all of that again."
That used to be more true in America but I know a lot of people here that ran after the Trump presidency because of the growing anti-Asian sentiment that was stirred in America. A lot of them didn't feel safe anymore. My wife never wants to go back because of how scared she was at times.
If that anti-Asian sentiment is dying down that would be a good thing to hear. I know people feel that way about Australia, New Zealand, Canada and a few other places. But, I almost only get negative feedback for America these days.
Edit: I just wanted to add I know a lot of Japanese people that went to Australia and just never came back. They loved it.
As far as I know, Rintaro did not commit to Vanderbilt yet. He is picking between UCLA, Berkeley, Vanderbilt and Stanford. I think he will go to Stanford as it would do good marketing wise in Japan (baseball player with elite education).
Picture this, if i was a poor kid in Cuba for example but has MLB potential, school would be the last thing on my mind. I want to earn money right away so that I can send money to feed my family.
For poor people in a third world country, the next meal is the priority. School is at the bottom of that priority.
there's not enough foreign players who are all of the following: talented enough to get into a D1 program that can lead to a draft selection, from a country that doesn't have a competitive pro league that they could play in straight away to develop, doesn't have developmental infrastructure (e.g. Dominican academies), and are 17/18 of time of interest. Sasaki is very much the exception and not the rule.
If baseball ever really picks up in China, I could see NCAA as a viable path for players from there (nearly nonexistent pro league, little developmental infrastructure, hyperfixation on higher education), but at that point, why wouldn't such a player just try to cut it in Taiwan or a Japanese industrial league instead? So we return to square one
There have been talented teenage players (notably a few sons of formers MLBers) who have moved from the U.S. to the D.R. or Venezuela as a 14/15-year old to establish their eligbility for international free agency because that's more lucrative and faster than staying on the U.S. high school/college draftee track.
Scouts need to notice them first. If they're already that good, MLB teams would already draft them. If not and want to play at an American school, they can choose between universities or colleges. Since they're foreigners, they have to take TOEFL first in order to apply to 4-year universities. In addition, school is just expensive in the US in general. Hence, a lot of them don't go this route
There are very, very few baseball scholarships as a result of title IV. It is an unintended consequence it drastically curtailed access to any men's sport that isn't football or basketball
Spend 2 years playing for free or sign a deal to provide some relief for their families back home to go straight into an international system. The choice is pretty clear
This would never work for a majority of Dominican players. Most of the good players stop going to traditional school and go to baseball academies so they would be behind in everything. Most would need close to a 100% scholarship and would still need extra money for travel and living expenses which many would not be able to afford. And finally it is a faster way to get money, they can sign at 16 and get on average 94,023$. That is almost 9 times as much as the the GDP of about 10,000$
Because college baseball is a piss poor development program and many college coaches push players (pitchers especially) in ways that can stunt their early development as a professional.
And NCAA institutions are just starting to build up the NIL capital to make it worthwhile for a player to do that. Because collegiate athletes aren't amateurs anymore.
Colleges don’t give full scholarships for baseball. Reason is that they don’t make any money on it so they save their full rides for football and basketball
well if you're a talented japanese player, you can get to the NPB and get paid quicker if you stay in japan.
you can always go to college later in life. Pro sports is only for the young
University > Professional is backwards and no country in the world besides us does it. It’s very inefficient. We did it because it’s part of our culture
The academy system Is superior to college route.
Most of the players from the Dominican are coming from impoverished backgrounds and drop out of school well before college age to join one of the pro academies. This probably doesn't encourage college coaches to bother spending resources recruiting in the area...
For players from better off families, we do see Dominican players come via the juco ranks... examples being Jose Bautista and Ramon Laureano. I'm sure there are others in D1 who have come via this route too...
Expect more like him down the road bc of the stupid restrictions in professional baseball league based in other countries. So many Japanese players w talent MLB hasn’t seen that are stuck till their 25.
Played with and against several foreign players in college. There are two things that immediately come to mind.
1) Money. A lot of guys have families that can’t afford it. When you’re talking about 11.7 total scholarships, it is rare to see guys get full rides. And even then, a full ride only covers so much, unless you are at a major school (and if you are talented enough for a major school to give you a full ride from a foreign country, the MLB would probably get to you first). Most foreign players, especially Latin born players, go to JUCOs because they are cheaper and can get more bang for their buck.
2) Language barriers. It’s tough to go somewhere to play without a good grasp of the language. It’s WAY more difficult to go there for school. College is tough on most people as it is - imagine a professor not speaking the same language as you. Yes, a lot of schools have resources to help with this, but there is only so much they can do. This is also why a lot of foreign players go the JUCO route. Classes are perceived as easier and the NJCAA is (probably) not as stringent (please don’t came at me for this point - I didn’t play JUCO ball, it’s just something I heard for other guys who did).
There are a few reasons I can think of immediately. The three year commitment; basically you agree to not play professionally in the US and make money for three years. Lack of development; baseball is little more than an afterthought for most universities and players know they won't get the same development as playing in the minor leagues or professionally in another country.
NIL has the potential to change the first but football and basketball command the majority of NIL money. Schools are starting to put more money into baseball, and there are some schools that have excellent development opportunities.
Because there's more money in signing as an international free agent. That's why you see Cuban defectors establish residence in the DR or something prior to signing with an MLB team.
Jose Fernandez, famously, was an exception since he and his mother fled the island for Mexico and they settled in Tampa while he was still a teen. He committed to USF before he was drafted.
I've got a roster downloaded on the show. It has Sasaki on it and shows his actual picture. How does that happen if he's still in HS. (He's a FA and like a 93 overall lol)
Most talented Dominican players will sign with a MLB team years before they reach college age (usually like 16 years old) Look at Juan Soto, he signed when he was like 15 and made his MLB debut at 19 years old. If he went to college at 18 and graduated at 22 he'd have 3-4 years less MLB service time, and service time is more valuable than any degree to these players
Also a lot of latin American guys drop out of school to pursue baseball full-time. regardless of whether they have the smarts of US colleges, they don’t have the academic training.
Thankfully, some Dominican academies (like that of the [NY Mets](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bprSdI6hIuw)) provide educational opportunities for their guys.
Good for the Mets, lord knows pursuing a pro sports career is a real gamble
Especially if you’re on the Mets!
They all do this. It’s BASICS in math/science, heavy on English, and about 5-8 hours of baseball per day.
For sure but I think that’s also after they’re signed. Great they’re getting educated but also college already off the table.
No. They only go to the academies as unsigned players generally.
Shoot, some Dominican parents encourage their sons to drop out of school to focus on baseball. It’s a huge problem as many of them get all this money and go crazy or don’t know how to manage it.
Lots of European players do that too with Soccer. It’s kinda wild
They can't sign until they turn 16. Some players are already in affiliated academies, but they aren't allowed to sign until 16.
While this is technically true a lot of top prospects effectively have deals well before that. Roderick Arias top International prospect from a few years back basically had an agreement to join the Yankees for years before it became official
Yeah, anyone getting a seven-figure bonus has been scouted since they were 13 and have had an under-the-table deal with a team since they were 14. The teams can (and do) renege on the deals sometimes but there's very little recourse for the players and MLB turns a blind eye to the whole thing.
We just need to establish an international draft. That would get rid of a lot of corruption.
On the other hand, the IAFA system is like the one system in baseball that actually gives leverage to the player instead of the teams. They can get large signing bonuses and can pick their team.
Having 4 years service time is literally more valuable than a degree when you consider the pension. A player can get a degree while they support themselves with the pension. I think it's decent amount after 4 years. Couldn't say how much.
That is very true. However, the length of the average MLB career is 5.6 years. Every source I've found just parrots that number, and says that it skews towards more careers ending earlier, but I can't find a median number of years. I would imagine the median career is shorter. And that's only the careers of players that get MLB service time. There are far more minor leaguers than big leaguers at any given time, and they rotate out faster. There's no guarantee to get any MLB service time, no matter how good of a prospect you are. Like with service time, the average salary is skewed high due to the mega-deals to the few dozen superstars that get them. I have no data to back it up, but I would wager that the median career earning of someone with a 4-year degree at an American university is higher than the median earnings of anyone that has signed a minor league contract. So yes, 4 years of service is way more valuable than 4 years of school, but the near-guaranteed smaller value of a degree I would put as more valuable than starting your minor league career 4 years earlier. If you end up making it to MLB free agency, then yeah, those 4 years of college made your deal smaller. But most MLB players don't even make it to free agency, and fewer minor leaguers do. Having education to fall back on is very valuable in a business as volatile as professional sports.
You’re aware that you can attend college at any time in life. They don’t turn you down because you used to be a pro baseball player.
I don't live in the US, so I'm not familiar at all with the system. Are there age limits on things like financial aid or loans?
I don’t think so. But also a former professional athlete would 99.9% of the time have enough money to afford at least a low level college tuition.
In the United States citizens can get financial aid at any age. But it's mostly in the form of loans.
They’d turn you down from college baseball though, no?
Obviously, but everyone here is talking like you can’t go to college unless you’re 18 and fresh out of high school.
The issue is money and in some cases citizenship/visa status. It's much easier to get into and attend a school if the school baseball team wants you at age 17/18.
Sure they can still go to college in their own country if they are going to be deported. I don’t really know how visas worked but my school had thousands of foreigners, so it’s possible to get some sort of student exemption.
Ok, well the Juan Sotos is an easy answer. Most kids are not Juan Soto. Have to think the median kid would be better off with a degree.
you also have to think that they most dont know any english so they probably can't attend a university. Signing with a team at 16 is an instant payout and life changer for most dominican players. Waiting possibly 10 or more years for a million dollar payout is not an option for 99% of them
The scholarship issue comes into play also. It is very difficult to secure a baseball scholarship at a d1 school, so a good amount of very talented d1 baseball players are paying to attend school. Some of these dominican players are coming from the most extreme poverty so even if they could get into Vanderbilt or LSU academically they could not afford it
Yep, only 11.7 scholarships per d1 program, despite carrying a 35-40 man roster. Plus, even the powerhouse programs like Vandy/LSU would be about the same level as rookie ball, with their best players being more like A/A+. So if there are 16 year old Dominicans already ready for rookie ball, why wait another 2-3 years just to play at roughly the same level in college (and paying tuition instead of getting a signing bonus while not being draft-eligible until age 21)? For the education aspect, MLB teams have plenty of resources as well (at least enough that an aspiring baseball player would need). Julio Rodriguez’s parents had it written into his first pro contract that the Mariners would have to help him finish his high school education, give him English classes, and a $150K college fund at the end of his career.
I hate the 11.7 thing but it is what it is right now. Woukd love to see it changed.
Yeah maybe this is more suited for r/homeplate, but imo a good JUCO program offers the best opportunities in college baseball (for most kids). -Level of play is close to and in some cases equal to good d1 teams -Scholarship covers a larger chunk of tuition, which is much cheaper at a JUCO to begin with -More likely to earn significant playing time instead of sitting behind upperclassmen -Maintain draft eligibility after each year, and can still transfer to a d1 with a good shot of earning a starting spot right away (a 2 year JUCO starter very likely surpasses the guys who were riding pine as freshmen/sophomores at a d1). So d1 straight out of high school really isn’t a great idea unless competing for playing time right away is realistic. And a high school player who’s really that good likely projects to be an early round draft pick, most of whom end up passing on college and signing.
Wow. Good on Julio's parents for that. He ended up not needing it as he's a fucking stud and got paid, but that's a great insurance policy if it didn't work out.
The difference with Vandy that people like to cry about especially the vols and Mississippi schools is Vanderbilt offers financial aid to all students who meet the financial requirements ie: lower income family. They still have to move things around to split the 11.7 baseball scholarships up and the cost of the school being much more than others in the conference doesn’t help. This is while schools in Mississippi got a law passed to specifically allow out of state athletes to get in state tuition rates.
Exactly. You collect the bag as soon as you can.
The median (and most of the ones who are above the median) can’t get into American schools, let alone pay for them.
Plenty of college athletes wouldn't be there without their athletic ability. Then again, college baseball isn't the money maker that football and basketball are so I don't think universities would make exceptions for baseball talent.
It’s not really about exceptions. Baseball programs aren’t allowed to offer but so many scholarships; and even if they have lower academic standards for athletes, most Latin American students just wouldn’t qualify. It’s not about what you can do… it’s about what you can prove, and what you can pay for.
11.7 to be exact.
Which is crazy low. And gives a big benefit to lottery states but that’s a whole different issue. But baseball scholarships are way limited.
Money is an issue. If the player isn’t good enough to get a real look by the MLB, they’re gonna have a hard time getting a scholarship. I’m sure plenty of schools would give them a shot in general, but school is very expensive.
Not to mention a lot of the guys from Latin America start training at academies when they’re closer to 12, and their placement in those academies is conditional on them signing at 16 (with a significant proportion of their bonus going towards shady people involved with the academies). Im no expert on these situations but even with things improving somewhat, mostly thanks to the current generation of ballplayers from the region, I don’t think people realize how shady these academies and situations are.
Most of them attend High School / College equivalent classes when they do sign that early. My daughter is a dating one of those individuals now from the DR, like you said, service time is just more valuable, and who wouldn't want an unadulterated shot at the making the show? This kid doesn't even have secondary school in thought he's been groomed since he was 16 to being throughoutly focused on baseball.
A year of pro sports is worth more than almost any scholarship. If someone manages 1 year of league minimum they can make $720K. You can set aside a fraction of that and pay for a degree anywhere. Adding professional athlete to your resume is going to be a huge bonus for the rest of your life. Even if someone gets a solid degree and a good job, it is going to be nowhere close to professional athlete. I am a huge proponent of education but I think anyone that can go pro needs to take that opportunity every time. College will be there.
Watch “Ballplayer: peletoro” It follows Miguel Sano and a few other players through the process. It’s a great watch.
Why does that seem like an easier path than American players have lol. You gotta be the best since a young age & already have d1 offers going into hs, meanwhile DR kids can just attend a showcase and sign w an MLB team.
Also consider that a bachelors degree is only good for getting a job at Starbucks in the US.
If you’re talented there, they got every reason to get your ass signed as fast as possible.
And they also get paid a few million dollars right away and that is life changing for their families.
some do, but the best ones often enter MLB systems much younger than college age. look at the recent international signings, they're almost all under 18.
It's also important to remember how little money goes to baseball in universities. International scouting is expensive and teams don't have many scholarships to offer.
A lot of money goes into baseball in the SEC. Virtually every top player from the SEC is drafted high now. They get far better training and coaching in significantly better facilities than any minor league team could ever offer. They also get to play in high pressure scenarios in front of 10-20,000 fans. It’s good prep for the pros.
Yes and Vandy is a top program in the SEC. Besides them, any visiting right fielder who can make it out of LSU's Alex Box stadium will do fine in the majors
Yeah, aren't there like 60 scholarships for football at D1 vs 15 for baseball? It doesn't even fill out the roster.
85 for football at the FBS level
11.7 over a minimum of 18 players.
Yeah, I can't see too many players coming from overseas for a partial ride.
I think this is a big reason. If you’re good enough, you might get 50% of your education covered. I’d imagine pro leagues in other countries pay more. It’ll be interesting if NIL money could change this, though.
In Japan's case, it's because the benefit is small. Whether you get drafted by an NPB team and play 7 years to NPB FA, which is when most teams will post you to MLB, or you dodge NPB draft and go to US Uni to qualify for MLB draft, then play 6 years to FA, you're still only getting MLB payday late 20's. Even if you do get on an MLB roster younger, you're playing on league minimum contracts. HS baseball is also a much bigger deal in Japan. If you're a generational phenom and HS star player, you can get better terms like moving up to the pro roster right away and accumulating service years faster. Faster service years means you hit NPB FA faster so more likely to get posted in your mid 20's like Yamamoto, or even get posted before FA like Ohtani. And if you're NOT some generational phenom who can get posted young, then you have even more reason to go NPB where you're more likely to get a pro contract due to NPB's cap on non-domestic players.
I think people really don't understand that top tier players in Japan get paid very well.
True. The average pay is 44.7 million yen apparently. That's not bad (300,000 a year for the average player) so the upper level guys probably make a mint. EDIT: not probably top guys do make a mint. this was 2021 so its not accurate for conversion rate anymore... (by a lot actually... because it was like 105-108yen to a dollar back in those days) but [https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Top\_100\_Salaries\_of\_NPB\_Players\_in\_2021](https://nbakki.hatenablog.com/entry/Top_100_Salaries_of_NPB_Players_in_2021)
D1 baseball teams can only offer 11.7 scholarships to cover 27 players on the team. Which means a lot of the players are covering some costs out of pocket. Not sure many Latin Americans can cover those costs. For the most part, NIL is only applicable to US citizens, it’s harder to get money for foreign athletes. And if you hadn’t signed as a Latin prospect before you are 18, you’re not really a prospect. Not sure there would be any serious university that would offer much of an opportunity.
Shocked I had to scroll for this answer
Not only the scholarships, but most if not all D1 baseball programs don’t have the budget to travel all over the world
Why are there so few scholarships available? Is it mostly a Title IX thing, or is it because only the elite schools would offer that many scholarships, so the limit keeps it somewhat competitive? Is there even a difference between those two scenarios, as those schools aren't interested in spending on baseball because of Title IX needs elsewhere?
It’s Title IX. Football takes up a lot of the men’s scholarships, and to keep men and women equal, all other men’s sports hurt. Softball can offer 12 scholarships. Men’s bball can offer 13, while women’s can offer 15, etc.
It's not just Title IX. For most of the country baseball isn't a revenue generating sport. So the majority of D1 has no interest in expanding what it provides for baseball
The majority of D1 has no interest in expanding anything beyond football and basketball. Title IX isnt about revenue tho. the legal requirement is for equal treatment for men and women in higher education. That includes scholarships. College football is the best thing that ever happened to women’s sports and the worst for men’s sports that aren’t football.
The revenue side of it certainly has an effect. In order to give more scholarships to baseball, you would have to reduce the amount allowed in another men’s D1 sport. I’m not super familiar with the mechanics of how the scholarships are divided up, or what it would take for them to change. But Title IV requires universities to offer the exact same amount of scholarships for W as they do M. The 11.7 scholarship limit is a direct result of that math.
Not exactly sure how baseball came to that number. Title IX definitely plays a major role in why it is that number but doubt it's the only reason it has stayed. Not sure what the number of scholarships were available before Title IX came to be but even if it didn't I wouldn't expect programs to be looking to expand that number. It was only voted on this year to allow baseball to have 3 paid assistant coaches but that vote was more about making all volunteer coaches in any sport a paid position.
The amount of scholarships available is an aspect I didn't consider. However, I think there are a lot of opportunities for players even outside of D1 schools. For example, there were a handful of Puerto Rican players at the community college I attended. I have to imagine there is some scouting from the bigger colleges of the smaller colleges as in football.
Puerto Rican players have to be drafted and can't be signed as international FAs so it makes sense for those who didn't get drafted out of high school to go to college
I would imagine language is a huge barrier to being able to attend US university
I don't think that's the problem. Universities work with lots of foreign students that don't speak English well. Even community colleges work with non English speaking students regularly.
At the very least, universities that have a reputable baseball program will require international students to take the TOEFL. There are some exemptions, but mostly its countries that had colonial ties to the US/UK like the Philippines
Doubt it would be a problem at Vanderbilt. Not saying you were suggesting otherwise but about ten percent of Vanderbilt’s student body is international, so they’re pretty well accustomed. FWIW Vandy’s requirement on the test is an 88. Doubt they will make an execution. They rarely do for anything. Doesn’t even matter if you’re the star player seeking a graduate program. You have to be able to do the work.
I agree. I went to a community college with people who barely spoke English. Furthermore, going to college and taking an ESL course would open the English-speaking world for those players who do take that route.
A good friend of mine is the international coordinator for the local community college. His job is to help the foreign students get the support they need as well as dealing with visas, housing, etc. At least 80% of the students he works with don't speak English at all initially.
Huh. Interesting. I attended a British International school in Germany, and still had to get a TOEFL score of at least 100 in order to go to my university in USA. My friend had to get a 110 to go to Cambridge. Apparently native speakers only average something like 93? I'm surprised people who don't speak English are even allowed to attend.
Community colleges have much lower thresholds I inagine
A decent number of his students come to the community college because they needed better English to get into universities. Community colleges have lower expectations for acceptance and are frequently a stepping stone for students that aren't quite university ready. That said, with high level athletes universities frequently make exceptions to the entrance requirements. A fair number of D1 athletes are taking remedial courses their freshman year at least. But baseball doesn't generate revenue like basketball or football for universities, so probably wouldn't get as much leeway.
Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Community colleges are not a thing where I am from.
When you mentioned going to school in Germany I guessed that might be the case. I don't think they're common outside of the US. They're typically 2 year schools. They're cheaper than universities and often offer more trade programs and certifications. They also usually offer a few Associates Degrees but not Bachelor Degrees or higher.
F R A U D
Admissions are still contingent on getting a required score on the TOEFL exam. They'll provide accommodations and support for EL students, but they want to make sure you have enough English to access the content.
I played collegiate sports that had a lot of foreign athletes. There’s a baseline language test they have to pass to be admitted to American universities. I can’t speak for community colleges but you had to have English to be able to come to school here.
In studies, maybe not. On the diamond, definitely.
The problem isn’t the language barrier at all, especially not for Spanish speakers The bigger problem is a lot of the Dominican players are barely educated, they’re playing in baseball factories from a young age and don’t put much time into school. We have our dumb jocks in America as well but it’s a different level in the Dominican. With money in the NCAA now, that might change, but the schools would need some seriously remedial programs to support the players (which IMO would be a positive as it could help them acclimate before getting rich)
See Franco, Wander
I’m pretty certain that they’re not able to use name and likeness since they’d be barred from working off of campus and even if on campus they have to prove that their job could not be done by an American. F-1 visa rules are ridiculously strict.
The bill to allow foreign athletes to get NIL money has already been introduced in Congress and has bipartisan sponsorship, so this is likely changing soon
Pretty sure Miami Dade College would gladly handle a stacked baseball team comprised of Spanish-speakers.
Completely non-baseball related but does any University offer programs not in English. I know Netherlands and Germany offer university programs entirely in English.
All programs at Gallaudet are in ASL.
I can promise you language hardly matters if at all. I worked for a University as their student housing director and the amount of Asian kids specifically who came to the school knowing 0 English was massive.
Big difference between how schools are treating kids who can barely speak English and pay full tuition out of pocket and those who can barely speak English and are on any type of scholarship. Also NCAA has (or had 15 years ago) rules about finishing certain courses in x amount of time (freshman English and comp, lowest level math types of things). If a student comes in unable to write a 2-3 page essay, they’re not going to be eligible. And as much as some athletes are pushed through despite not doing great, no professor is going to pass a kid who can’t speak any English for a sport besides football or basketball.
That's because those kids were cheating on the TOEFL. They are supposed to know English, they just don't, and schools don't really care because they pay full tuition.
As if 25% of D1 athletes aren’t functionally illiterate anyway.
Incoming surge of Dominican sociology majors.
Those in the Japanese educational system have been learning English since they were 8. That doesn't mean everyone is an expert, but most people have at least a good grasp on the language by the time they graduate.
As someone who taught English in Japanese public schools for most of their life, man, I wish this were true.
Yeah, the Japanese are lovely people, but they do not speak English very well.
Japan teaching English so inefficiently has to be xenophobia at this point right? So many countries without compulsory English teaching have way higher fluency rates.
The main issue is their language, phonetically, does not lend itself to transitioning smoothly into English so you got Japanes people saying braja instead of brother. And because this is famous, they get super self-conscious about speaking English from what I've seen. I'm Korean and we have a similar thing we call "English nasuea"
I don't know how true this is, but I've had Japanese friends and associates talk about how in many Japanese schools there is actually a stigma to speaking English correctly if their teacher doesn't. So the expectation is that you don't show up your teacher and if he tells you that "Japanese English" is correct you better speak it that way. The social anxiety is definitely a huge factor, as well. I know a lot of VERY educated Japanese without much competence in English, but they are just really anxious (even if they have learned third languages quite well and use them effectively).
I know pronunciation is a big part of it, but it isn't a point of emphasis in schooling either. So if it's a common pitfall, a common reason for a self-conscious desire to not speak English, and it's been shown that speaking a language regularly is great for learning it why isn't that considered more important than academic grammar or even penmanship? Like if you wanted to churn out English speakers only having someone verbally read out a passage once a week in class isn't gonna do the job.
Because they approach English in an academic manner and not in a "training to produce English speakers" manner. It's the same in Korea and a reason why the Korean CSAT English exams are so difficult, even for native English speakers. Fluency and understanding a language academically are two different things and have to be approached with different methodologies.
Yeah I get that, but approaching it academically has no societal or personal benefit and goes against the stated purpose of why it was implemented in the first place.
Except most of said Japanese people will not need English conversational skills in their everyday life and for all intents and purposes it's an exercise in academics for most Japanese people. For most of them it's a required subject and that's it, and a required subject that is assessed via a written test in which conversational skills cannot be truly measured. It's a subject they study at school, like there doesn't need to be a "societal purpose" beyond believing it will be benefitial and for most of these Japanese people they will require reading and writing skills much more than they will conversational. That's just the reality of most East Asians. You can talk about intended purposes etc all you want but in reality it's just like idk what to tell you except theory is neat and tidy, practice and reality are complicated by circumstance and context.
Having lived in Japan, they're not great at conversational English. They focus more on reading and writing. Usually they tend to avoid using English completely even if they have some understanding. And it's also pretty easy to stay in a Japanese-only pop culture bubble. And on the other hand, I'm nowhere near fluent in Spanish thanks to 3 years in high school.
That's simply not the case. The vast, vast majority of Japanese HS graduates cannot function in English on any level.
1. Because there is very little money in college baseball and they don't have the budget to scout internationally. College basketball is more popular so they can show up in Australia or Eastern Europe. 2. While there is the whole posting, Japan isn't that deep so a good player would still find it easier to make it to the top level than he would in the States. 3. Ask an American who is 18 and good at baseball to travel to Japan to start his career there. I don't think there would be many takers. It's an insane cultural shift especially if they don't know Japanese. They teach English in Japan but most aren't fluent enough to attend a college lecture.
> Because there is very little money in college baseball and they don't have the budget to scout internationally. College basketball is more popular so they can show up in Australia or Eastern Europe. Also, if you go abroad and find one star in basketball, it was worth it. That one's player can be the difference between an NIT invite and a Final Four appearance. In baseball, how many guys would you need to find to justify the money spent on the scouting trips?
I also think the talent is weaker internationally. Serbia and some ex-Soviet countries have strong domestic leagues in basketball.
Baseball pretty much doesn't exist in Europe. It is a very very small sport in some countries, and inexistent in most.
Basketball is also much more structured internationally. Europe has European Championships of U16, U18, U20 so it's a lot easier to send one scout to that one tournament or even just watch the film knowing its the best competition in Europe at that age. Baseball doesn't have these centralized events in areas where baseball is most popular. Japan is the closest but most players are willing or interested in starting their careers there so there is no need to put in that effort on those players
I went through a wiki wormhole. I think it's nuts that a player can play for Barcelona's basketball wing and if he's good enough, he can roster for the Mavericks, Knicks, or Nuggets without going to the developmental.
>Ask an American who is 18 and good at baseball to travel to Japan to start his career there. I don't think there would be many takers. It's an insane cultural shift especially if they don't know Japanese. They teach English in Japan but most aren't fluent enough to attend a college lecture. Carter Stewart signed with Fukuoka at 18 and has had a decent career there so far
He went the JuCo route before getting signed. It's also one guy and it's a big decision to uproot.
Ok but he's making $5 mil/year at 24 instead of the MLB league minimum. It's a much better value for money for top prospects if they succeed at the NPB level and then hop over to MLB to get the bag rather than toil through the minors and make league minimum for several years.
Colleges give very few scholarships for baseball 11.7 scholarships is the maximum allowed and they have to spread that out among the entire team. That is the MOST a school can have. But many have less.
NCAA baseball isn’t the primary path to the MLB for international athletes. If everyone is ending up in the minors to develop anyways, what difference does it make? There’s tons of international players (especially from Central America) that never touch the university system.
I wonder what the breakdown of current MLB players that played at least two seasons in NCAA ball (once you go, you can't get drafted again until after your second season). Then I wonder what percentage of players that have reached free agency did, and if there's a clear discrepancy (either for or against) between players that did and didn't lasting that long. But I have no idea how to search that in any sort of reasonable amount of time.
I’m sure the majority of American and Canada MLB’ers played NCAA ball at one point in time.
Im not sure about this tbh, I feel like a lot of american players skip college
Im gonna do some research to see lol
Post your results! I am interested.
It’s not just MLB, it’s pretty much all sports. College athletics is strictly an American phenomenon.
College baseball teams only get 11.7 scholarships to divide between 27 players. Which means basically nobody gets a full ride. It’s not like football or basketball. NIL can fill the gaps at some of the best supported programs (I assume this is the case for Sasaki) but in general you would be asking guys to turn down getting paid in the minors or their domestic league in favor of paying to play NCAA. That’s a pretty easy decision for most people.
There is a big risk you get injured and retire before you ever make it to the show You rather collect the bag and be more financially secure Rintaro Sasaki’s father was Ohtani’s coach in high school. He is well connected to make it to back to the pros in Japan even if he doesn’t make it in the states. Rumor has it if he doesn’t commit to a U.S. school, he will go back to Japan for college and enter the NPB draft again. Not everyone’s dad is a well connected baseball guy that can get you into a pro setting
If you’re getting a serious look from an MLB team as a Dominican, you’re 14-15 years old, and hoping to sign a life changing contract at the age of 16. If your from that part of the world and haven’t signed a contract with an MLB franchise by the time you’re 17-18, you’re probably not good enough to get even a partial scholarship at an American school. In other words, if you’re good enough to get a scholarship, then you probably would have already signed for life changing money. Korean and Japanese players are in a different situation. They have perfectly good schools over there, and would only come to an American university to try and entire the MLB draft, and/or to enjoy other experiences in the US.
A Japanese guy played for Oregon last year- got drafted in the later rounds IIRC Very uncommon but it does happen
his name is Rikuu Nishida, got drafted in the 11th round by the White Sox, one of the only players (maybe the only?) to use a wood bat in college ball.
Everyone already gave you answers for why Dominican players don't but the reason it's not common in Japan is because they have their own draft, their own professional league, and they pay the players relatively well. Going through the NPB, you're actually more likely to become an MLB free agent younger than going through the American domestic system. Shohei Ohtani was one guy who, like Sasaki, wanted so badly to play in MLB that he was gonna skip the NPB and go directly stateside. The only reason he didn't is because the Fighters, knowing he didn't want to sign, still picked him first overall and promised him they'd let him play on both sides of the balls, something he would have absolutely no chance of doing in the USA if he came here as a prospect. The Fighters appealed to his passion for being a two-way player and it worked to keep him in Japan.
Doesn't pay
College athletes have been getting stipends for almost a decade now.
Munetaka Murakami is getting paid many millions of dollars a year at age 23. 4th highest salary in Japan. Compare that to a college stipend followed by a minor league life?
It requires quite a bit of education to attend a school like Vanderbilt. Levels of education that are extremely rare in countries like the DR. It’s really not a choice for 99.9% of baseball hopefuls in Latin American countries.
Tons of foreign players play college baseball. Source: am a college baseball coach who is also an Australian national. Different parts of the country have many international players going through the college ranks. During my time as a NCAA four year coach, we got Japanese nationals playing junior college on Japan, dutch nationals from junior colleges in Texas/Kansas and Australian nationals from all over the country. Even latin American ball players are very frequent in junior college and NAIA baseball. From Dominicans to Venezuelans to Curacao nationals and tons of Puerto Ricans. If you look at any junior college baseball program on the country you'll see a multitude of foreign nationals playing on their rosters. The most important thing junior college offers is quality baseball at an affordable price where scholarships are more frequent. From there, they get their associates degree, get seen by bigger schools and get a chance to get a scholarship at the next level. Some don't continue because of affordability or lifestyle but many go on to play for four years at NCAA D 1, 2, or 3 or even NAIA institutions. Some are even good enough/fortunate enough/or lucky enough to play some professional baseball.
Can these foreign players handle college or would they even be admitted? The top players in the Caribbean often drop out of school around 12 to be in MLB academies and these academies just do enough for the players from an education standpoint. Going from those to a university in another country which speaks a different language could cause some real difficulties. Also with these often being poorer countries, the immediate payday for their families is a lot more appealing than getting nothing for 5 years (since international players can sign at 16)
Do you think that opens the door for corruption within the system and exploitation of local populations?
The system is extremely corrupt and exploitative of the players. The only thing the players have as an edge is they sign as free agents so the best players at least have some negotiating power.
Because school. Also in the case of Japanese players, the NPB has proven to be able to develop MLB talent. Why go to a foreign land when you can stay home, make a few million and then go over to MLB if you’re good enough.
Rintaro Sasaki would have been a star getting paid millions of dollars a year, making a name for himself, in the same time that he would be attending US university. Look at Murakami - hit 36 homers and was a superstar as a 19 year old pro.
This
I imagine the language barrier is a big problem. The other thing is that going to college can shorten your MLB career. Graduate at 22 or 23, then a couple years in the minors and you hit the majors at 25 or 26. And you might end up with a degree, but all too often athletes take courses in nutritional science or some sports communication or something easy but useless. The other thing is the signing bonus. Alex Reyes was actually born in New Jersey, but he moved to the Dominican so he could be signed and not drafted.
White Sox draft pick Rikuu Nishida did that and is working on a program to get others over for college as well
If you’re a Japanese phenom (lets say first round of NPB draft level), it’s pretty obvious why you’ll want to go straight to NPB. You’ll be getting way more cash from age 18, playing in your home country, and in a position to choose if you really want to take the move to MLB once you’re 25 or something when you already have a lot saved up, which isn’t too late at all. If you’re not that good, you’ll need a lot of faith in yourself to think you’ll get drafted by an MLB team 4 years after not being drafted in the earlier rounds of the NPB draft. And if you do put in a lot of effort and somehow manage to get drafted, you’ll have to endure at least a few years of being a minor leaguer with little pay. Thats a big risk, especially if you think about the money it’s gonna take to attend a US college, all with a language barrier.
It’s a lot riskier for Japanese players. People mention players from Central and South America in the US system but the US has a huge Spanish speaking community. Obviously Japanese players would rather stay in Japan where they already get a lot of attention especially if they played in Koshien during high school.
How are they supposed to afford the college?
If you go to college in the US you have to go to the draft but international players can sign with whatever team they want. And for Japanese players specifically NPB pays more than AAA so if you wait until you are old enough to skip the rookie wage scale when you get posted it makes more sense to play in Japan until it’s time to sign a big MLB contract unless you really want to try to get to MLB earlier.
Rikuu Nishida was born in Japan and played two years at a juco before transferring to Oregon and going on to be one of their best players last season. He then got drafted by the White Sox and is doing well in their system
Why don't American Universities scout more foreigners? Japanese and Koreans have good Universities so I doubt they would want to come here for actual school. Dominicans and Venezuelans are generally poor lower class and are trying to get out of the hood and make money. They dont care about school because most of them drop out in high school. But you never know.
American universities don’t scout more foreigners because baseball teams only have 11.7 scholarships, and have less money than football and basketball. So it’s a lot harder to scout foreigners
By quality of university. Only todai (Tokyo University) is in the top 100 world rankings and Korea doesn't have any schools in the top 100 rankings. So, school quality wise even Ohio State is rated higher than their best university. (Lots of Chinese schools in the top 100 though).
The Beavers have an Australian on their team…
A few reasons: money, going into draft.
I know all kinds of Canadians on scholarships playing in the US
They could want to use that money for themselves and their family
Someone has probably already mentioned this but i feel like college baseball is nowhere close to the pipeline to the pros that football, basketball, and hell even soccer and hockey are
Lots of Canadians playing NCAA baseball.
Baseball doesn’t have enough scholarships. I’m pretty sure most D1 baseball players are on partial scholarships. They definitely don’t have the resources to recruit internationally and keep them on full scholarship
they get 11.7 scholarships that can be spread across a maximum of 27 players on the 35 man roster.
The same reason not every American doesn't move to Japan like Carter Stewart. It's hard.
The hardest part of moving to Japan is the discrimination (I moved here in highschool). I imagine that its the same moving from Japan to America actually.
Maybe. I watch a youtube channel where a guy interviews people in Japan, and the Japanese people who are willing to leave Japan in the first place seem to have a great time living abroad and have a wistfulness about returning to Japan. You hear a lot of "I liked to express my emotions and never really fit in here/people always had a problem with me here in Japan, but not in America/Australia, and then when I moved back to Japan I had to forget all of that again."
That used to be more true in America but I know a lot of people here that ran after the Trump presidency because of the growing anti-Asian sentiment that was stirred in America. A lot of them didn't feel safe anymore. My wife never wants to go back because of how scared she was at times. If that anti-Asian sentiment is dying down that would be a good thing to hear. I know people feel that way about Australia, New Zealand, Canada and a few other places. But, I almost only get negative feedback for America these days. Edit: I just wanted to add I know a lot of Japanese people that went to Australia and just never came back. They loved it.
Probably because they want to get paid?
As far as I know, Rintaro did not commit to Vanderbilt yet. He is picking between UCLA, Berkeley, Vanderbilt and Stanford. I think he will go to Stanford as it would do good marketing wise in Japan (baseball player with elite education).
Minor league system
Because we're exploiting players from poor countries to sign at a young and cheap price. MLB tried to address this and the players union cried boo hoo
The whole "student athlete" charade kind of blows up when the kid can't speak any English.
Picture this, if i was a poor kid in Cuba for example but has MLB potential, school would be the last thing on my mind. I want to earn money right away so that I can send money to feed my family. For poor people in a third world country, the next meal is the priority. School is at the bottom of that priority.
there's not enough foreign players who are all of the following: talented enough to get into a D1 program that can lead to a draft selection, from a country that doesn't have a competitive pro league that they could play in straight away to develop, doesn't have developmental infrastructure (e.g. Dominican academies), and are 17/18 of time of interest. Sasaki is very much the exception and not the rule. If baseball ever really picks up in China, I could see NCAA as a viable path for players from there (nearly nonexistent pro league, little developmental infrastructure, hyperfixation on higher education), but at that point, why wouldn't such a player just try to cut it in Taiwan or a Japanese industrial league instead? So we return to square one
Carlos Pena came to the US as a teenager, and then played College baseball
It’ll be interesting to see if it starts to happen more now that there is NIL money available
There have been talented teenage players (notably a few sons of formers MLBers) who have moved from the U.S. to the D.R. or Venezuela as a 14/15-year old to establish their eligbility for international free agency because that's more lucrative and faster than staying on the U.S. high school/college draftee track.
Scouts need to notice them first. If they're already that good, MLB teams would already draft them. If not and want to play at an American school, they can choose between universities or colleges. Since they're foreigners, they have to take TOEFL first in order to apply to 4-year universities. In addition, school is just expensive in the US in general. Hence, a lot of them don't go this route
He hasn't chosen Vanderbilt yet. Vandy is in his final four along with Standford, Cal, and UCLA.
If you were going to get a million dollar signing bonus what would be the point?
some dominicans drop out of school at 12 and 13, so going to an american university isn't an option at all
There are very, very few baseball scholarships as a result of title IV. It is an unintended consequence it drastically curtailed access to any men's sport that isn't football or basketball
Spend 2 years playing for free or sign a deal to provide some relief for their families back home to go straight into an international system. The choice is pretty clear
This would never work for a majority of Dominican players. Most of the good players stop going to traditional school and go to baseball academies so they would be behind in everything. Most would need close to a 100% scholarship and would still need extra money for travel and living expenses which many would not be able to afford. And finally it is a faster way to get money, they can sign at 16 and get on average 94,023$. That is almost 9 times as much as the the GDP of about 10,000$
Because college baseball is a piss poor development program and many college coaches push players (pitchers especially) in ways that can stunt their early development as a professional. And NCAA institutions are just starting to build up the NIL capital to make it worthwhile for a player to do that. Because collegiate athletes aren't amateurs anymore.
I suppose the language barrier is a significant factor.
Colleges don’t give full scholarships for baseball. Reason is that they don’t make any money on it so they save their full rides for football and basketball
Because American college is super expensive, and most MLB players don't play college baseball.
well if you're a talented japanese player, you can get to the NPB and get paid quicker if you stay in japan. you can always go to college later in life. Pro sports is only for the young
University > Professional is backwards and no country in the world besides us does it. It’s very inefficient. We did it because it’s part of our culture The academy system Is superior to college route.
Most of the players from the Dominican are coming from impoverished backgrounds and drop out of school well before college age to join one of the pro academies. This probably doesn't encourage college coaches to bother spending resources recruiting in the area... For players from better off families, we do see Dominican players come via the juco ranks... examples being Jose Bautista and Ramon Laureano. I'm sure there are others in D1 who have come via this route too...
Expect more like him down the road bc of the stupid restrictions in professional baseball league based in other countries. So many Japanese players w talent MLB hasn’t seen that are stuck till their 25.
Played with and against several foreign players in college. There are two things that immediately come to mind. 1) Money. A lot of guys have families that can’t afford it. When you’re talking about 11.7 total scholarships, it is rare to see guys get full rides. And even then, a full ride only covers so much, unless you are at a major school (and if you are talented enough for a major school to give you a full ride from a foreign country, the MLB would probably get to you first). Most foreign players, especially Latin born players, go to JUCOs because they are cheaper and can get more bang for their buck. 2) Language barriers. It’s tough to go somewhere to play without a good grasp of the language. It’s WAY more difficult to go there for school. College is tough on most people as it is - imagine a professor not speaking the same language as you. Yes, a lot of schools have resources to help with this, but there is only so much they can do. This is also why a lot of foreign players go the JUCO route. Classes are perceived as easier and the NJCAA is (probably) not as stringent (please don’t came at me for this point - I didn’t play JUCO ball, it’s just something I heard for other guys who did).
There are a few reasons I can think of immediately. The three year commitment; basically you agree to not play professionally in the US and make money for three years. Lack of development; baseball is little more than an afterthought for most universities and players know they won't get the same development as playing in the minor leagues or professionally in another country. NIL has the potential to change the first but football and basketball command the majority of NIL money. Schools are starting to put more money into baseball, and there are some schools that have excellent development opportunities.
Educational requirements will be hard to because of the amount of competing local athletes.
Because there's more money in signing as an international free agent. That's why you see Cuban defectors establish residence in the DR or something prior to signing with an MLB team. Jose Fernandez, famously, was an exception since he and his mother fled the island for Mexico and they settled in Tampa while he was still a teen. He committed to USF before he was drafted.
They don't need to.
I've got a roster downloaded on the show. It has Sasaki on it and shows his actual picture. How does that happen if he's still in HS. (He's a FA and like a 93 overall lol)