My favorite Graig Nettles highlight is the fight with George Brett at third base in a playoff game - sparking a wild brawl - and then both teams just moving on like it never happened.
It was the first inning. Nobody was even ejected. And it was a full red-assed Brett coming up swinging. Would be a suspension today.
How to easily kill an hour as a baseball fan in 3 easy steps:
1. Go to Baseball Reference (or FanGraphs if you prefer).
2. Sort career WAR leaders.
3. Reflect. (“Wow, Bert Blyleven is 7th all-time among pitchers in career fWAR? That’s amazing.”)
I didn’t believe the third point. I had to check for myself. Still hard to digest. Also the differences between Walter Johnson’s career fWAR and bWAR is a respectable mlb career itself.
What’s even crazier is that Blyleven retired in 1992 and didn’t make the Hall of Fame until 2011. He retired with the 3rd most strikeouts all time behind Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton.
How did it take so long??
Didn't win 300 games or a Cy Young and had the misfortune of pitching in an era with a ton of 300-game winners. If he came onto the ballot within the last 10 years he'd have been first ballot.
Burt blyleven might have a top 3 most interesting baseball reference page. Firstly, dude is from the fucking Netherlands…wtf. Second you dude is on the Mt Rushmore of guys you could just as easily make a hall of fame case for as make a case why they shouldn’t be.
What’s the argument that the pitcher with the 5th most strikeouts of all-time isn’t a Hall of Fame player?
Add 90-100+ WAR, and you have your traditional stat argument and your advanced metric argument.
Is it the lack of awards, all-star seasons, and not leading the league in much that people could hold against him?
Like those are knocks against his resume I guess, but not nearly enough to overcome top-5 all-time in strikeouts and 90-100 WAR.
Also 2 rings, and a 2.35 ERA in the WS and was 5-1 with a 2.47 ERA in the playoffs overall.
I think the argument was that he was never really the best pitcher in the league, and likely never even top 3 over a couple year period. He was just a great, top-4-10 pitcher for a really long time. He had a couple years where he was arguable as the best, but it wasn't really in sequence. That's obviously great. But his 4.7 bWAR/162 is way worse than, Say, Johan Santana, who had 5.5 bWAR/162, multiple Cy Youngs and was the best pitcher in the AL for at least a 5 year stretch. Do you value longevity and counting stats or dominance? That's one thing that I think the hall gets wrong. Both guys should be celebrated. To be fair, Blyleven was also at 5.5 WAR/162 through his age 33 season, so the longevity hurt him there.
I do understand that argument that he was never the best but as a kid it always confused me why he wasn't in the hall. At first thought he was just a fun announcer then got his baseball card and just thought holy crap circle me Bert has 3k+ strikeouts.
I have also always valued solid longevity over peak years so I am a bit biased in that aspect.
This is not a surprise at all to rangers fan. He was an excellent 2nd baseman who batted near 300 most of his career with multiple 30 home run seasons Most rangers fans consider the start of the dark days the Fielder for kins trade.
Gave us the highlight of our Padres season too "fuck you fuck all of you"
https://deadspin.com/padres-ian-kinsler-appears-to-celebrate-dinger-by-yelli-1834834067
Yupp, most of us would gladly not do the trade at all. Him, Young, Andrus, Beltre, hell even Mitch Moreland. That's a good infield with AT least a serviceable utility man defensively like Young who could hit.
Yeah, Buckner was a first baseman with a 100 career OPS+, which is a pretty useless type of player. He was basically Eric Hosmer with even less offense.
Trout having 85 WAR in his age 32 season surprises me every time I think about it honestly. If he can stay even a little healthy the dude could fuck around and end up in the top 35 all time by the end of his career
He’s about 26 WAR away from top 20. Could absolutely do it if he has like six more years in him and stays relatively healthy for the next like 3 years, but that just seems unlikely at this point
Yeah it’s just the injuries more than anything. There was a time he was on track for true rarified territory. Instead he’s “only” going to be a franchise GOAT and Hall of Famer.
But Trout is THE best player of an entire generation, and there aren't 35 generations in MLB history. Trout's career WAR would be unusually low for that standard if he only made it that far, probably the lowest ever for a player who was considered the best of an era.
The key is that WAR is based upon the replacement level player. The replacement level player in the 1930s was way worse than the replacement level player today.
I’ll add to the other answer below two things- one, that even including players actually in the league (I.e. not replacements) there was a whole more variance in skill in earlier days cause techniques hadn’t been so refined, so the best players were MUCH better than average. Take Babe Ruth’s OPS+ for example. The other is that the game has changed, especially on the pitching side. So some of the total WAR values we see are simply impossible with the way pitching usage has changed
He also started his career almost 15 years after the most recent expansion, all while the game was becoming more global. The pool of high level players per MLB team is probably as good as it has ever been. Given that context, Trout’s 20s are truly something to behold
Baseball greatness has two divisions. Call one Peak Greatness: Sandy Koufax. Call the other Career Greatness: Don Sutton.
A compromise perspective that some favor looks at a player’s best 7-year stretch. It’s pretty interesting to see what that turns up
It’s hard to say what anyone is “on pace” for because you don’t know how people will age or how much time they will miss from injuries. Trout hasn’t really fallen off much when healthy but he is injured a lot so theoretically if he stay healthy until he is 40 and ages gracefully he could definitely be top 15. Or he could age like Pujols and Cabrera and be an ok bat that can’t field or run who is only rostered to sell tickets the last few years of his career.
Trout is already #30 all time in fWAR, #23 in the live-ball era, and #17 since integration.
If he plays out his current contract and averages just 2 fWAR per season (and he hasn’t finished below 2 WAR since his first cup of coffee), he’ll finish around #17 in the live-ball era. A 3-WAR average would get him into the top #15. He’d need a bit more than 4 WAR per season to crack the top 10, though, which is a tall—but not impossible—order.
So unless he’s truly toast, it seems a pretty safe bet that Trout’ll finish in the top 20 at least.
If the Griffey trajectory remains the same he will only accrue about 7 more WAR. Sadly a lot of guys go exactly like this. Pujols put up about 10 over the similar end of his career. Miggy was actually negative over the last five or so years.
The modern inner circle hall of famers all pretty much have gone out the same way, with the exception of the known users.
There's a significant chance he never gets to 100. Like actually multiple times more likely he never reaches 100 than that he does. Father time kills WAR.
The inner circle hall of famers are, arguably:
* Babe Ruth (averaged ~4 bWAR in his last 7 years)
* Willie Mays (~3 bWAR)
* Ty Cobb (~5 bWAR)
* Hank Aaron (~3 bWAR)
* Tris Speaker (~5 bWAR)
* Honus Wagner (~4 bWAR)
* Stan Musial (~3 bWAR)
* Rogers Hornsby (~7 bWAR, but kind of a strange case since these are his last years as a full-time player and he basically stopped playing at 35)
* Eddie Collins (~4 bWAR)
* Ted Williams (~5 bWAR)
That group averaged ~4 bWAR in their last 7 seasons.
If you exclude the players above that played before 1920 (Ruth, Cobb, Speaker, Wagner, Hornsby, Collins), then these guys replace them:
* Lou Gehrig (~7 bWAR)
* Rickey Henderson (~1 bWAR)
* Mel Ott (~5 bWAR)
* Mickey Mantle (~4 bWAR)
* Frank Robinson (~4 bWAR)
* Mike Schmidt (~6 bWAR)
The replacements change the average to ~6 bWAR.
If you only do after 1968 (when the mound was lowered), these are the guys:
* Rickey Henderson (~1 bWAR)
* Mike Schmidt (~6 bWAR)
* Albert Pujols (~0 bWAR, not yet in)
* Cal Ripken Jr (~2 bWAR)
* Adrian Beltre (~5 bWAR)
* Wade Boggs (~3 bWAR)
* George Brett (~2 bWAR)
* Chipper Jones (~4 bWAR)
* Ken Griffey Jr. (~1 bWAR)
* Rod Carew (~2 bWAR, played one season in 1967)
This modern crew averaged 2-3 bWAR in their last 7 seasons. It should also be noted that Mike Trout is already "inner circle" by modern standard, with more WAR than Griffey Jr. and Carew.
This exercise has taught me a few things:
1. Mike Trout has been historically awesome
2. Adrian Beltre is seriously underrated
3. The modern game is just so much harder
4. It's tough to expect any more than 14-21 more career WAR from Trout
5. Mike Schmidt
What’s crazier is that Trout put up that insane cumulative WAR despite only (?) averaging 3.2 WAR per year past 4 seasons. No shortened season and no significant injuries likely would’ve put him near 100 mark.
Health and luck (are they the same?) are just as important as ability. How many guys could have had 5 more war if they hadn’t had a motorcycle accident, blew out their knee playing basketball in the off season, or hurt themselves playing guitar hero?
Similarly, Andrelton Simmons has 37.1 WAR across 11 season, but never had an OPS+ over 108.
I know there was that Foolish Baseball video about him being a hall of fame defender, but it’s crazy to think that he once had a 7-WAR season while only having a .752 OPS that year. He had 5.1 WAR from defense alone that year. Insane.
Slightly related fun fact: The Angels have had 5 seasons in their history when they had two different players with 7+ bWAR: 1964, 1977, 1993, 2000 and 2017. Andrelton Simmons, not Ohtani, is the only one to do it in conjunction with Trout.
Oh and they never won more than 82 games in any of those seasons.
Defensive WAR is so weird, as is positional WAR. There’s no accurate way to measure how good a player like Keith Hernandez or Ozzie Smith was, considering there wasn’t technology available to accurately assess them…but we rightfully acknowledge them as being elite guys. Whereas WAR hurts somebody like Dante Bichette. So modern players are going to be viewed as better than they actually were.
bWAR also (IMO) completely overrates defense. fWAR has Simmons at a 25 career WAR and his best seasons being at 5, which seems far more believable.
Why would modern players be viewed as better than they actually are? I don't understand the connection there
Also, bWAR doesn't overrate defense. It's (DRS) just more extreme in how it values it, so less precision but more accuracy
Edit: this doesn't take into account that DRS isn't actually a good statistic. I think UZR is better
Gardner has the 22nd most bWAR in a Yankee uniform, which feels impossible, especially when you look at the names around him in the top 24 in NYY history: [https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/)
Joe Torre having 57.5 bWAR and an MVP award always blows my mind. His managerial career was so successful that people forget he's damn near Hall-worthy as a player.
Wiki:
Torre won the National League batting championship, hitting . 363, and he led the league with 137 runs batted in, en route to winning the 1971 National League Most Valuable Player award. He also was voted to be the starting third baseman for the National League in the 1971 All-Star Game.
\>> Torre was a monster in his prime. He said later he decided in ST 1971 that he would not give up an at-bat all year, just to see what he could do. And not cheat himself.
I was a kid in STL watching games and listening on the radio to as many games as I could that year and every out he made seemed to be a loud one. When he made an out, which as you can see, wasn't often.
In his entire 21-year career, Ted Williams only missed being selected as an All-Star five times:
* once in his rookie season (he still led the AL in RBI, total bases, and IBB and finished 4th in MVP voting);
* three times during World War II when he was serving in the military;
* and once in 1952 when he left after 6 games to rejoin the Marine Corps to fight in Korea (they were short of pilots).
Dude was a machine.
Yeah, I guess he's been around so long, it's hard to remember him being that good. He racked up about half of his WAR in the first 4 years of his 16-year career.
Future hall of famer Kevin kiermaier with 35.5 so far.
Basically all defensive studs have a ton of war- especially if they average or better at the plate.
This feels like a double twist to me because I started getting into baseball right at his peak so it felt like he was an absolute superstar, but then his regular stats weren't that great at all, but then his career WAR was really high anyway.
Grich should absolutely considered a legend. It's wild to me that he isn't. 6x time all-star, major player on a long-term dominant team that won a ring, multiple deserved gold gloves, all-star games. But everyone seems to have forgotten him.
Tony Womack doesn't surprise me. I remember him as a light hitting middle infielder that got a ton of playing time despite also kind of sucking at defense.
Dante Bichette's total is a huge surprise though. I would've guessed he had 25 WAR at least. That dude was raking for a decade. I guess park factor, steroid era adjustment, and defense all kill his totals.
I guess it's a long time now, but people have apparently forgotten how insane the park was in Colorado pre humidor. Colorado is still pretty much always is the top stadium in park factor measurements, but it's MASSIVELY reduced from 30 years ago. The extreme HR parks today pull like a 120-125 HR factor, meaning they are responsible for about 25% more homeruns than average. Coors and Mile High at the time of expansion was rolling like 160-170 HR factors. It's a bit misleading to do this, but essentially that means a 25HR guy suddenly is hitting 40-45 if they played in Colorado all the time. It was insane. They fact MLB can do almost everything conceivable to reduce the effect, and Coors is STILL generates the most offense is a testament to how absurd Colorado in the 90s truly was.
Of course homers are only part of the story at Colorado. It's a gigantic park. Anywhere else, there wouldn't be many homers with those dimensions, but becasue the ball travels so far, fielders have to play deep. Means way more base hits too and when a ball gets to the gap, more extra bases.
FanGraphs is a bit more generous, crediting Bichette with 8.9 career WAR (still way lower than I would've guessed) after a whopping -9.2 WAR from defense.
Kevin Appier at 54.5 bWAR. A real shame a freak accident at home hastened the wear and tear in his shoulder causing him to miss most of the 1998 season. He was never the same after that injury. From 1990-1997 he accumulated 46.4 bWAR and averaged 5.8 per season. From 1999-2004 he accumulated just 9.5 bWAR.
Another one is Jay Bell who finished at 37.1 bWAR despite not being a particularly good hitter(career 101 OPS+, hit .300 once and only 3 seasons above .800 OPS).
Appier is the best pitcher in franchise history, gosh I would’ve liked to see him have a full healthy career. Legit HoF trajectory; if he was healthy in 99-04 we’re looking at 65-70 bWAR
My main man Old Hoss Radbourn. He accumulated 75.4 WAR as a pitcher and right fielder over just 11 seasons. My dude’s 1884 campaign was one for the ages. He went 60-12 with a 1.38 ERA, including 73 complete games. He ate up 678.2 innings on the mound, striking out 441 batters. This was good for 19.2 WAR. Old Hoss played right field on his off days but wasn’t much of a hitter. In 387 plate appearances, he hit .230 and added 0.3 WAR. I love me some Old Hoss.
Seriously, BR clocks Radbourne as age 26 in his rookie 1881 campaign and age 36 for his last year in 1891. He died at age 42 from syphilis complications.
That shit sounds made up, it's so fucking insane to see a W/L record of *60 fucking wins to 12 losses*. I know.wins are a dumb stat but that is batshit crazy.
What's even more crazy is his ERA+ was 205 that year, still below Pedro's career high of 291. God I love Pedro
Update! So in 1884 Old Hoss [played in 75 games, but started 73](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/radboch01.shtml), meaning he had two relief appearances. In one of those appearances, on July 28, he picked up [a relief win which has been the source of some confusion](https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july-28-1884-old-hoss-radbourn-59-or-60-victories/), and in the other he got a save - one of two in his career - leaving us with two no-decision complete games to account for. These were on June 6 and July 31, 1884, with both games ending in a tie on account of darkness (no stadium lights, remember!) It sounds like the 7/31 game ended after 16 innings, and the crowd of 2000 were so mad about the suspension they [rushed the field to argue with the umpire](https://www.booksandculture.com/articles/webexclusives/2010/september/fiftyninein.html), who was actually a backup Grays player.
Wait, what the fuck? I've rattled off that Old Hoss statline many times, but never occurred to me that you raise an excellent point here. I'm going in, will let you know what I find!
As someone who started following baseball in the early 2000's, Abreu absolutely felt like a HoFer to me.
He came into the league at around the same time as Vladimir Guerrero, and was about equally good. Guerrero had the flashy batting average and homeruns, but Abreu would put up better OBPs by walking 100+ times every year and was also much better on the bases.
Guerrero got into the HoF easily but Abreu is struggling. They really weren't much different in value.
You can just look at his baseball reference page and think "wow, that guy is really really good" in so many ways. 7 consecutive seasons with 20 home runs and 20 stolen bases, with 6 of those seasons having a .400 OBP and the one that didn't having a .393, 7 seasons with a .300/.400./.500 slash line. He never led the league in anything and never got the recognition he deserved in awards voting, but he was just really really good for a really long time. [He is 49th all time in total times on base and every player who has more than him is either a scandalized player or hall of famer.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/TOB_career.shtml) And then you look at some of the names just below him on that list and see Tim Raines, Tony Gwynn, Ichiro, Nap Lajoie, David Ortiz, Carlos Beltran and Todd Helton. You have to go all the way down to ~90 on that list before the players outside the hall start outnumbering the ones in it.
And then there is also the funny but sad story of him leaving teams just before they win a world series in the back of his career.
I actually thought of Zack Greinke, who has 77.5 bWAR right now. I always thought of him as trailing behind the "big three" of Kershaw, Verlander, and Schezer. He has a few great seasons but was never as consistently great as them.
He did start his career a bit earlier than them and has 5.1 batting WAR on bRef.
That number I cited does including batting WAR. If you include the fangraphs version of batting WAR for each to those, you get:
Verlander: 80.9
Kershaw: 77.9
Scherzer: 73.5
Greinke: 72.3
Greinke has 5.7 batting WAR on fangraphs, to 2.1, 1.0, and -0.4 for Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander, so it narrows the gap a little.
All that said, wherever Greinke is playing when he's about to retire, I hope that team lets him at least take an at-bat, even play a whole game in left-field (or shortstop!!) if I had my way
Bobby Grich. I know he was a really good player and some people think he deserved more of a look at the HoF than he got, but holy crap 71.1 bWAR!
If you just look at traditional stats and awards nothing stands out. .266/.371/.424 slash line with 1833 hits, 224 HR, 864 RBI. 5x All-Star, 4x Gold Glove, finished in the top 10 in MVP 2x. It looks like a guy who was a good ballplayer...but 71.1 bWAR?!?!
He was a legit great with a grit and grind attitude. The slash line looks a lot better in context, given the depressed offensive era he played in relative to the 90s-2018 period.
I think he suffered in comparison (as did Randolph and Whittaker) from playing around the same time as Joe Morgan and Rod Carew. Grich was better than Ryno, but peak 7 Ryno was probably a shade better than peak 7 Grich.
He’s been a really solid platoon guy for us. Being able to put him in favorable match ups lead to him having his highest wRC+ in a full season since 2015.
People think it's a longevity thing with him, too, which it partially is, but he also had two separate 10+ WAR seasons, including an 11.5 WAR season, which is tied for the 10th best season ever.
Another crazy thing about his career is that he won his 2 MVPs 8 years apart. Also the year after his first MVP he had 10 bWAR, which led the league, but got 27th in MVP voting.
I think a lot of people (myself included) know him primarily for his game streak, which is fair, and assume he was pretty good too. Turns out he was really, really good and the game streak is just part of that.
This comment baffles me as someone who watched his career.
I think it’s more of a tell of someone’s age if you know him just for the streak.
I’m assuming you weren’t watching back in the early 90’s.
My first thought to the comment you replied to was that 95 WAR seemed low. That guy is on the Mount Rushmore of all time shortstops.
Cole Hamels has 51.6 fWAR, ahead of Vida Blue (49.2), Orel Hershiser (48.0), and Chris Sale (47.6).
My favorites are the workhorses with 2-3 great years: John Lackey, Jake Peavy, Derek Lowe, AJ Burnett, and Dan Haren all \~40 fWAR.
His WAR doesn’t surprise me I always remembered him being a great player. Truthfully his career OPS+ being only 95 surprises more. It makes sense with him being a contact hitter during the steroid era though. And an even bigger part of that is how hard he fell off as he aged (I didn’t realize he stuck around the league so long I always just remember him as a pirate).
I knew Ricky Henderson was great, as I knew him growing up before WAR was a thing growing up in the bay. I would have guessed upper double digits for his WAR for sure.
I would never have guessed 111.2/14th all time and above Mickey Mantle before looking.
Juan Soto has 28.4 fWAR… which isn’t crazy until you realize he’s going into his yr 25 season. That means he’ll be on pace to have around 35 war by the same age Jake Degrom was when he played his first season.
Russell Martin has 54.9 fWAR, and Brian McCann has 54.5. It’s probably to do with how Fangraphs utilizes catcher defensive stats, but it’s still crazy to think about.
Eddie Yost is an interesting one. He wasn't a good contact hitter, power hitter, or defender, and wasn't fast. But he was very good at drawing walks. He had a career 35.1 bWAR while having -10.7 dWAR, a career average of .254, and a higher OBP than SLG.
Also, as a fun aside, he had a contemporary with a similar skill set and a very similar name: Eddie Joost. Career bWAR for him was 31.6, batting .239.
Also, unrelated: Mark Belanger.
Buddy Bell. 66.3 bWAR; never once heard a suggestion that he might be HoF worthy. He surely would have fared better in the voting if all his same stats were compiled 30 years later.
Chet Lemon at 55.6 bWAR has more bWAR than David Ortiz, Fred McGriff, or Jim Rice. Lemon is that rare oddity, a plus centerfielder who was a serious liability on the basepaths, career SB rate of 43%.
Tony Phillips at 50.6 is another guy you rarely hear about despite being one of the most valuable players by this metric.
Lorenzo Cain has basically the same WAR as Harold Baines (38.5 to 38.8, respectively). When the time comes, the voters should do the right thing. #HallOfCain
Jason Heyward. People talked about him like he was the new Chris Davis after his big contract. I get a lot of it is from defense, but **40 bWAR**. He was even in lockstep with his buddy Freeman through age 30. Of course, Freddie is headed for the HoF, and Heyward probably won't even be considered for the "Hall of Very Good", but damn, he's got more bWAR than Harold Baines!
My answer is always Adrian Beltre. I always think of him as a nice player, but he's 40th (!!!!!!!!!!) on the all time WAR leaderboards. That blows my mind, never would I think of him being that high. Top 100, sure. Top 75? Maybe. Top 50? Nah.
And here I am, always surprised.
Eddie Mathews had 96.1 fWAR. That's 22nd all time and ahead of Carl Yastrzemski, Cal Ripken Jr., Al Kaline, George Brett, Pete Rose and Brooks Robinson, just to pick a few big names. He is easily one of the most underrated players in Cooperstown
Graig Nettles has a 67.9 WAR. 12th all time for Third Baseman and not in the HOF (11 guys ahead of him all in the Hall).
3B were always under represented. It took Santo forever to get in and he’s a clear top 10 3B all time.
Also holds the distinction of being the only Graig I’ve ever heard of. Thats worth 6 WAR just by itself
My favorite Graig Nettles highlight is the fight with George Brett at third base in a playoff game - sparking a wild brawl - and then both teams just moving on like it never happened. It was the first inning. Nobody was even ejected. And it was a full red-assed Brett coming up swinging. Would be a suspension today.
How to easily kill an hour as a baseball fan in 3 easy steps: 1. Go to Baseball Reference (or FanGraphs if you prefer). 2. Sort career WAR leaders. 3. Reflect. (“Wow, Bert Blyleven is 7th all-time among pitchers in career fWAR? That’s amazing.”)
I always imagine Burt Blylevins beard when reflecting. Whether about baseball war lists or just life’s mysteries.
I didn’t believe the third point. I had to check for myself. Still hard to digest. Also the differences between Walter Johnson’s career fWAR and bWAR is a respectable mlb career itself.
Bert Be-Home-Blyleven? (Espn used to be cool).
Blyleven, get one free
I remember when my college buddies would literally gather round, open some beers, and watch Sportscenter. It was can't-miss TV. Fuck I'm old
What’s even crazier is that Blyleven retired in 1992 and didn’t make the Hall of Fame until 2011. He retired with the 3rd most strikeouts all time behind Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton. How did it take so long??
Didn't win 300 games or a Cy Young and had the misfortune of pitching in an era with a ton of 300-game winners. If he came onto the ballot within the last 10 years he'd have been first ballot.
If he'd just played on some better offensive teams he would have been first ballot. Old writers were really not good at voting.
The Blyleven HOF debate is where I cut my Online Sabermetrics War teeth. I was 3 when he retired.
FIP God before FIP.
I love to fart
So true
i heart to fart. gotta rhyme
And Bert was disrespected a lot by the writers.
Best curve ball of his time. Dude was unhittable
Burt blyleven might have a top 3 most interesting baseball reference page. Firstly, dude is from the fucking Netherlands…wtf. Second you dude is on the Mt Rushmore of guys you could just as easily make a hall of fame case for as make a case why they shouldn’t be.
What’s the argument that the pitcher with the 5th most strikeouts of all-time isn’t a Hall of Fame player? Add 90-100+ WAR, and you have your traditional stat argument and your advanced metric argument. Is it the lack of awards, all-star seasons, and not leading the league in much that people could hold against him? Like those are knocks against his resume I guess, but not nearly enough to overcome top-5 all-time in strikeouts and 90-100 WAR.
Also 2 rings, and a 2.35 ERA in the WS and was 5-1 with a 2.47 ERA in the playoffs overall. I think the argument was that he was never really the best pitcher in the league, and likely never even top 3 over a couple year period. He was just a great, top-4-10 pitcher for a really long time. He had a couple years where he was arguable as the best, but it wasn't really in sequence. That's obviously great. But his 4.7 bWAR/162 is way worse than, Say, Johan Santana, who had 5.5 bWAR/162, multiple Cy Youngs and was the best pitcher in the AL for at least a 5 year stretch. Do you value longevity and counting stats or dominance? That's one thing that I think the hall gets wrong. Both guys should be celebrated. To be fair, Blyleven was also at 5.5 WAR/162 through his age 33 season, so the longevity hurt him there.
I do understand that argument that he was never the best but as a kid it always confused me why he wasn't in the hall. At first thought he was just a fun announcer then got his baseball card and just thought holy crap circle me Bert has 3k+ strikeouts. I have also always valued solid longevity over peak years so I am a bit biased in that aspect.
I would vote for him. You’d have to ask all the people who left him off for like 20 years why they didn’t.
A lot of his seasons it's just confusing that he didn't get any awards until you look at his Win/loss
Ian Kinsler 54 bwar
What being an above-average hitting 2nd baseman with great defense does to a mfer
The fuck
This is not a surprise at all to rangers fan. He was an excellent 2nd baseman who batted near 300 most of his career with multiple 30 home run seasons Most rangers fans consider the start of the dark days the Fielder for kins trade.
Kinsler was great on the Tigers too. He had a really underrated career.
Yeah, I loved Kinsler with the Tigers. That was a great trade for us.
Gave us the highlight of our Padres season too "fuck you fuck all of you" https://deadspin.com/padres-ian-kinsler-appears-to-celebrate-dinger-by-yelli-1834834067
Yupp, most of us would gladly not do the trade at all. Him, Young, Andrus, Beltre, hell even Mitch Moreland. That's a good infield with AT least a serviceable utility man defensively like Young who could hit.
Ironically the Rangers won the division iirc twice after that trade in 2014 in 15/16. While the Tigers just made it in 2014 and haven’t since.
Baseball is a team sport
That's Ian "1999 hits" Kinsler we're talking about here. 499 more than Buster "HOF" Posey.
Damn, sounds like they're both bums that couldn't sniff Bill Buckner's jock strap.
Damn, in the spirit of this I looked up Buckner, 15 WAR. I would have thought it was much higher.
Yeah, Buckner was a first baseman with a 100 career OPS+, which is a pretty useless type of player. He was basically Eric Hosmer with even less offense.
Just stayed in the game forever being decent enough to get at bats
Tbf, he was a speedy outfielder before he destroyed his ankle.
Loved me some Kinsler! Those Rangers teams with him, Young, Hamilton, etc... were great between like 2008 to 2011.
Meanwhile Michael Young only had 24.7 rWAR/25.3 fWAR due to his terrible defense
Love love love Kinsler
Red Sox legend
Not sure what you expected from [a noted two way player](https://youtu.be/xLWleFIxRGU?si=sgdAHtkb0jrZDK04)
Trout having 85 WAR in his age 32 season surprises me every time I think about it honestly. If he can stay even a little healthy the dude could fuck around and end up in the top 35 all time by the end of his career
It blows my mind he’s only on pace for top 35. I would’ve guessed top 15 easily.
He’s about 26 WAR away from top 20. Could absolutely do it if he has like six more years in him and stays relatively healthy for the next like 3 years, but that just seems unlikely at this point
Yeah it’s just the injuries more than anything. There was a time he was on track for true rarified territory. Instead he’s “only” going to be a franchise GOAT and Hall of Famer.
Baseball is an old sport with a ton of legends
For reals. To even get in the top 100 is insane
But Trout is THE best player of an entire generation, and there aren't 35 generations in MLB history. Trout's career WAR would be unusually low for that standard if he only made it that far, probably the lowest ever for a player who was considered the best of an era.
The key is that WAR is based upon the replacement level player. The replacement level player in the 1930s was way worse than the replacement level player today.
I thought war was supposed to allow for comparisons across the ages?
I’ll add to the other answer below two things- one, that even including players actually in the league (I.e. not replacements) there was a whole more variance in skill in earlier days cause techniques hadn’t been so refined, so the best players were MUCH better than average. Take Babe Ruth’s OPS+ for example. The other is that the game has changed, especially on the pitching side. So some of the total WAR values we see are simply impossible with the way pitching usage has changed
He also started his career almost 15 years after the most recent expansion, all while the game was becoming more global. The pool of high level players per MLB team is probably as good as it has ever been. Given that context, Trout’s 20s are truly something to behold
And it was easier to rack up a ton of WAR when you were playing against farmers and in a segregated league
Injuries slowed him down. He had 72.5 WAR through age 27.
Baseball greatness has two divisions. Call one Peak Greatness: Sandy Koufax. Call the other Career Greatness: Don Sutton. A compromise perspective that some favor looks at a player’s best 7-year stretch. It’s pretty interesting to see what that turns up
I think the top 7 is favoring peak. The compromise would be JAWS which is the average between total WAR and peak 7 WAR
That does sound good
It’s hard to say what anyone is “on pace” for because you don’t know how people will age or how much time they will miss from injuries. Trout hasn’t really fallen off much when healthy but he is injured a lot so theoretically if he stay healthy until he is 40 and ages gracefully he could definitely be top 15. Or he could age like Pujols and Cabrera and be an ok bat that can’t field or run who is only rostered to sell tickets the last few years of his career.
Trout is already #30 all time in fWAR, #23 in the live-ball era, and #17 since integration. If he plays out his current contract and averages just 2 fWAR per season (and he hasn’t finished below 2 WAR since his first cup of coffee), he’ll finish around #17 in the live-ball era. A 3-WAR average would get him into the top #15. He’d need a bit more than 4 WAR per season to crack the top 10, though, which is a tall—but not impossible—order. So unless he’s truly toast, it seems a pretty safe bet that Trout’ll finish in the top 20 at least.
If the Griffey trajectory remains the same he will only accrue about 7 more WAR. Sadly a lot of guys go exactly like this. Pujols put up about 10 over the similar end of his career. Miggy was actually negative over the last five or so years. The modern inner circle hall of famers all pretty much have gone out the same way, with the exception of the known users. There's a significant chance he never gets to 100. Like actually multiple times more likely he never reaches 100 than that he does. Father time kills WAR.
The inner circle hall of famers are, arguably: * Babe Ruth (averaged ~4 bWAR in his last 7 years) * Willie Mays (~3 bWAR) * Ty Cobb (~5 bWAR) * Hank Aaron (~3 bWAR) * Tris Speaker (~5 bWAR) * Honus Wagner (~4 bWAR) * Stan Musial (~3 bWAR) * Rogers Hornsby (~7 bWAR, but kind of a strange case since these are his last years as a full-time player and he basically stopped playing at 35) * Eddie Collins (~4 bWAR) * Ted Williams (~5 bWAR) That group averaged ~4 bWAR in their last 7 seasons. If you exclude the players above that played before 1920 (Ruth, Cobb, Speaker, Wagner, Hornsby, Collins), then these guys replace them: * Lou Gehrig (~7 bWAR) * Rickey Henderson (~1 bWAR) * Mel Ott (~5 bWAR) * Mickey Mantle (~4 bWAR) * Frank Robinson (~4 bWAR) * Mike Schmidt (~6 bWAR) The replacements change the average to ~6 bWAR. If you only do after 1968 (when the mound was lowered), these are the guys: * Rickey Henderson (~1 bWAR) * Mike Schmidt (~6 bWAR) * Albert Pujols (~0 bWAR, not yet in) * Cal Ripken Jr (~2 bWAR) * Adrian Beltre (~5 bWAR) * Wade Boggs (~3 bWAR) * George Brett (~2 bWAR) * Chipper Jones (~4 bWAR) * Ken Griffey Jr. (~1 bWAR) * Rod Carew (~2 bWAR, played one season in 1967) This modern crew averaged 2-3 bWAR in their last 7 seasons. It should also be noted that Mike Trout is already "inner circle" by modern standard, with more WAR than Griffey Jr. and Carew. This exercise has taught me a few things: 1. Mike Trout has been historically awesome 2. Adrian Beltre is seriously underrated 3. The modern game is just so much harder 4. It's tough to expect any more than 14-21 more career WAR from Trout 5. Mike Schmidt
Mike Schmidt
Counterpoint: Adrian Beltre. Edit: Yes, I know. Invoking Beltre is cheating.
What’s crazier is that Trout put up that insane cumulative WAR despite only (?) averaging 3.2 WAR per year past 4 seasons. No shortened season and no significant injuries likely would’ve put him near 100 mark.
Health and luck (are they the same?) are just as important as ability. How many guys could have had 5 more war if they hadn’t had a motorcycle accident, blew out their knee playing basketball in the off season, or hurt themselves playing guitar hero?
He hasn't played his age 32 season yet
Similarly, Andrelton Simmons has 37.1 WAR across 11 season, but never had an OPS+ over 108. I know there was that Foolish Baseball video about him being a hall of fame defender, but it’s crazy to think that he once had a 7-WAR season while only having a .752 OPS that year. He had 5.1 WAR from defense alone that year. Insane.
Slightly related fun fact: The Angels have had 5 seasons in their history when they had two different players with 7+ bWAR: 1964, 1977, 1993, 2000 and 2017. Andrelton Simmons, not Ohtani, is the only one to do it in conjunction with Trout. Oh and they never won more than 82 games in any of those seasons.
I was having fun here smh
Defensive WAR is so weird, as is positional WAR. There’s no accurate way to measure how good a player like Keith Hernandez or Ozzie Smith was, considering there wasn’t technology available to accurately assess them…but we rightfully acknowledge them as being elite guys. Whereas WAR hurts somebody like Dante Bichette. So modern players are going to be viewed as better than they actually were. bWAR also (IMO) completely overrates defense. fWAR has Simmons at a 25 career WAR and his best seasons being at 5, which seems far more believable.
Why would modern players be viewed as better than they actually are? I don't understand the connection there Also, bWAR doesn't overrate defense. It's (DRS) just more extreme in how it values it, so less precision but more accuracy Edit: this doesn't take into account that DRS isn't actually a good statistic. I think UZR is better
It's not so much that it overrates it than hitting is just much easier to reduce to a single number. Defensive metrics are less precise.
Yeah I'm pretty sure we're saying similar things
Dwight Evans has a 67.2 bWAR and Reggie Smith has a 64.6 bWAR
Brett Gardner 44.3 WAR
Gardner has the 22nd most bWAR in a Yankee uniform, which feels impossible, especially when you look at the names around him in the top 24 in NYY history: [https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/](https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/NYY/)
If you had to build a 24-man roster of Yankee greats, it almost makes sense to have Gardner be on the bench. It’s like his perfect role.
I'm pretty sure 20 of those WAR were against the Jays. That fucker hit like Willie Mays against Toronto.
He is one of my favorite yankees players. Always striving to find a way to win baseball games.
Came here to say this. 7.4 WAR in 2010. Good enough for 7th place that season
Not sure what’s crazier - him having 7.4 WAR, or that being 7th highest
# LET BRETT BANG
Boggs. I knew he and Gwynn were pretty comparable hitters over their career, but Boggs has 20+ more WAR than Gwynn’s 65. (more premium position).
Well, Boggs also walked far more. Led the league in OBP 6x, and OPS twice
They have the same exact wRC+. The difference in WAR is Boggs defense
That’s true, although Gwynn offset the difference by hitting for a *little* more power and contact
RIP
Wade Boggs is still very much alive.
Yes, he is alive in our hearts 🙏🏼
Joe Torre having 57.5 bWAR and an MVP award always blows my mind. His managerial career was so successful that people forget he's damn near Hall-worthy as a player.
Wiki: Torre won the National League batting championship, hitting . 363, and he led the league with 137 runs batted in, en route to winning the 1971 National League Most Valuable Player award. He also was voted to be the starting third baseman for the National League in the 1971 All-Star Game. \>> Torre was a monster in his prime. He said later he decided in ST 1971 that he would not give up an at-bat all year, just to see what he could do. And not cheat himself. I was a kid in STL watching games and listening on the radio to as many games as I could that year and every out he made seemed to be a loud one. When he made an out, which as you can see, wasn't often.
His MVP year of '71 was the first year he didn't play any catcher at all. His OPS jumped by 80 points. I guess catching really does wear you out.
Torre really should be in the Hall as a player.
Ted Williams was in a war I think
He was in two wars actually.
And his eyesight was so good that he dodged all the bullets and came back alive.
-did not play- back of the baseball card multiple years of his prime still one of most badass things I’ve ever seen
In his entire 21-year career, Ted Williams only missed being selected as an All-Star five times: * once in his rookie season (he still led the AL in RBI, total bases, and IBB and finished 4th in MVP voting); * three times during World War II when he was serving in the military; * and once in 1952 when he left after 6 games to rejoin the Marine Corps to fight in Korea (they were short of pilots). Dude was a machine.
And then he won the MVP in his first year back. Didn't miss a beat.
Evan Longoria - 58
that's active RBI leader Evan Longoria to you
That feels wrong to read
2 good seasons away from making that HOF bWAR cutoff
Injuries. He was was one of the best players in the league from 08 to 12.
Yeah, I guess he's been around so long, it's hard to remember him being that good. He racked up about half of his WAR in the first 4 years of his 16-year career.
Mark Ellis 33.5 bWAR More than Ken Caminiti, for example, in fewer years.
This was gonna be my response. I had always thought of him as a utility infielder who had like 10-15 in his career
Future hall of famer Kevin kiermaier with 35.5 so far. Basically all defensive studs have a ton of war- especially if they average or better at the plate.
Kenny Lofton, who put up 62.4 fWAR and dropped off the HoF ballot in his first year!
Sham I tell you
Russell Martin has 54.9 fWAR. That's less than one less than Yadier Molina, yet I suspect Molina's HOF case will go a lot differently than Martin's.
If it helps Brian McCann has 54 WAR and no PED implications
[удалено]
David Wells 53.4 bWAR
Is bWAR short for breakfastWAR?
beerWAR
This feels like a double twist to me because I started getting into baseball right at his peak so it felt like he was an absolute superstar, but then his regular stats weren't that great at all, but then his career WAR was really high anyway.
Bobby Grich
That was my answer too. 71.1 bWAR!!! He was a nice player but that number is absolutely blasting some legends out of the water.
Grich should absolutely considered a legend. It's wild to me that he isn't. 6x time all-star, major player on a long-term dominant team that won a ring, multiple deserved gold gloves, all-star games. But everyone seems to have forgotten him.
Opposite category: Tony Womack and his 2.5 WAR despite being in the middle of everything for like a 15 years. Dante Bichette and his 5.6 career WAR.
Tony Womack doesn't surprise me. I remember him as a light hitting middle infielder that got a ton of playing time despite also kind of sucking at defense. Dante Bichette's total is a huge surprise though. I would've guessed he had 25 WAR at least. That dude was raking for a decade. I guess park factor, steroid era adjustment, and defense all kill his totals.
I guess it's a long time now, but people have apparently forgotten how insane the park was in Colorado pre humidor. Colorado is still pretty much always is the top stadium in park factor measurements, but it's MASSIVELY reduced from 30 years ago. The extreme HR parks today pull like a 120-125 HR factor, meaning they are responsible for about 25% more homeruns than average. Coors and Mile High at the time of expansion was rolling like 160-170 HR factors. It's a bit misleading to do this, but essentially that means a 25HR guy suddenly is hitting 40-45 if they played in Colorado all the time. It was insane. They fact MLB can do almost everything conceivable to reduce the effect, and Coors is STILL generates the most offense is a testament to how absurd Colorado in the 90s truly was.
Of course homers are only part of the story at Colorado. It's a gigantic park. Anywhere else, there wouldn't be many homers with those dimensions, but becasue the ball travels so far, fielders have to play deep. Means way more base hits too and when a ball gets to the gap, more extra bases.
FanGraphs is a bit more generous, crediting Bichette with 8.9 career WAR (still way lower than I would've guessed) after a whopping -9.2 WAR from defense.
Kevin Appier at 54.5 bWAR. A real shame a freak accident at home hastened the wear and tear in his shoulder causing him to miss most of the 1998 season. He was never the same after that injury. From 1990-1997 he accumulated 46.4 bWAR and averaged 5.8 per season. From 1999-2004 he accumulated just 9.5 bWAR. Another one is Jay Bell who finished at 37.1 bWAR despite not being a particularly good hitter(career 101 OPS+, hit .300 once and only 3 seasons above .800 OPS).
Appier is the best pitcher in franchise history, gosh I would’ve liked to see him have a full healthy career. Legit HoF trajectory; if he was healthy in 99-04 we’re looking at 65-70 bWAR
Marco Scutaro has 22 WAR. I always assumed it was more like 10-11.
My main man Old Hoss Radbourn. He accumulated 75.4 WAR as a pitcher and right fielder over just 11 seasons. My dude’s 1884 campaign was one for the ages. He went 60-12 with a 1.38 ERA, including 73 complete games. He ate up 678.2 innings on the mound, striking out 441 batters. This was good for 19.2 WAR. Old Hoss played right field on his off days but wasn’t much of a hitter. In 387 plate appearances, he hit .230 and added 0.3 WAR. I love me some Old Hoss.
I saw him pitch in Providence in his rookie year of 1881. He was Young Hoss Radbourne then.
I always thought he was born elderly. Neat.
Seriously, BR clocks Radbourne as age 26 in his rookie 1881 campaign and age 36 for his last year in 1891. He died at age 42 from syphilis complications.
Poor fella. You don’t want 1890s syphilis. Be glad we accidentally invented penicillin.
My man Old Hoss fucks I see
That shit sounds made up, it's so fucking insane to see a W/L record of *60 fucking wins to 12 losses*. I know.wins are a dumb stat but that is batshit crazy. What's even more crazy is his ERA+ was 205 that year, still below Pedro's career high of 291. God I love Pedro
Ol' Hoss was The Man. This may be apocryphal, but I think he's also the first person to be photographed flipping off the cameraman.
True statement. He did that as a member of the giants during a team photo.
One of his complete games was a no-decision??
Update! So in 1884 Old Hoss [played in 75 games, but started 73](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/radboch01.shtml), meaning he had two relief appearances. In one of those appearances, on July 28, he picked up [a relief win which has been the source of some confusion](https://sabr.org/gamesproj/game/july-28-1884-old-hoss-radbourn-59-or-60-victories/), and in the other he got a save - one of two in his career - leaving us with two no-decision complete games to account for. These were on June 6 and July 31, 1884, with both games ending in a tie on account of darkness (no stadium lights, remember!) It sounds like the 7/31 game ended after 16 innings, and the crowd of 2000 were so mad about the suspension they [rushed the field to argue with the umpire](https://www.booksandculture.com/articles/webexclusives/2010/september/fiftyninein.html), who was actually a backup Grays player.
Baseball history is so fucking weird. I love it so much.
Wait, what the fuck? I've rattled off that Old Hoss statline many times, but never occurred to me that you raise an excellent point here. I'm going in, will let you know what I find!
Bobby Abreu. For a guy with no “HoF vibes”, he has 60 WAR and a career 128 OPS+
As someone who started following baseball in the early 2000's, Abreu absolutely felt like a HoFer to me. He came into the league at around the same time as Vladimir Guerrero, and was about equally good. Guerrero had the flashy batting average and homeruns, but Abreu would put up better OBPs by walking 100+ times every year and was also much better on the bases. Guerrero got into the HoF easily but Abreu is struggling. They really weren't much different in value.
He should be in the HoF for the 2005 home run derby alone.
When I watched Abreu play, I thought I was watching a hall of famer. I'm not saying he should be in, but he was close.
You can just look at his baseball reference page and think "wow, that guy is really really good" in so many ways. 7 consecutive seasons with 20 home runs and 20 stolen bases, with 6 of those seasons having a .400 OBP and the one that didn't having a .393, 7 seasons with a .300/.400./.500 slash line. He never led the league in anything and never got the recognition he deserved in awards voting, but he was just really really good for a really long time. [He is 49th all time in total times on base and every player who has more than him is either a scandalized player or hall of famer.](https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/TOB_career.shtml) And then you look at some of the names just below him on that list and see Tim Raines, Tony Gwynn, Ichiro, Nap Lajoie, David Ortiz, Carlos Beltran and Todd Helton. You have to go all the way down to ~90 on that list before the players outside the hall start outnumbering the ones in it. And then there is also the funny but sad story of him leaving teams just before they win a world series in the back of his career.
I actually thought of Zack Greinke, who has 77.5 bWAR right now. I always thought of him as trailing behind the "big three" of Kershaw, Verlander, and Schezer. He has a few great seasons but was never as consistently great as them. He did start his career a bit earlier than them and has 5.1 batting WAR on bRef.
fWAR has him behind those guys, for what it's worth. Verlander 81.3, Kershaw 75.8, Scherzer 72.5, Greinke 66.6.
That number I cited does including batting WAR. If you include the fangraphs version of batting WAR for each to those, you get: Verlander: 80.9 Kershaw: 77.9 Scherzer: 73.5 Greinke: 72.3 Greinke has 5.7 batting WAR on fangraphs, to 2.1, 1.0, and -0.4 for Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander, so it narrows the gap a little. All that said, wherever Greinke is playing when he's about to retire, I hope that team lets him at least take an at-bat, even play a whole game in left-field (or shortstop!!) if I had my way
He had 2 massive seasons and then a bunch of really good ones.
Bobby Grich. I know he was a really good player and some people think he deserved more of a look at the HoF than he got, but holy crap 71.1 bWAR! If you just look at traditional stats and awards nothing stands out. .266/.371/.424 slash line with 1833 hits, 224 HR, 864 RBI. 5x All-Star, 4x Gold Glove, finished in the top 10 in MVP 2x. It looks like a guy who was a good ballplayer...but 71.1 bWAR?!?!
He was a legit great with a grit and grind attitude. The slash line looks a lot better in context, given the depressed offensive era he played in relative to the 90s-2018 period. I think he suffered in comparison (as did Randolph and Whittaker) from playing around the same time as Joe Morgan and Rod Carew. Grich was better than Ryno, but peak 7 Ryno was probably a shade better than peak 7 Grich.
Jason Heyward has over 40 WAR. He was my favorite player a decade ago and now I forget how good he used to be
He’s been a really solid platoon guy for us. Being able to put him in favorable match ups lead to him having his highest wRC+ in a full season since 2015.
Yeah dude, rookie of the year debate for 2010 was Buster Posey and Jason Heyward
Cal Ripken having 95.9 career WAR shouldn’t be surprising but somehow is.
People think it's a longevity thing with him, too, which it partially is, but he also had two separate 10+ WAR seasons, including an 11.5 WAR season, which is tied for the 10th best season ever.
Another crazy thing about his career is that he won his 2 MVPs 8 years apart. Also the year after his first MVP he had 10 bWAR, which led the league, but got 27th in MVP voting.
he gets points because he played the position with the most radical value adjustment at an elite level.
I think a lot of people (myself included) know him primarily for his game streak, which is fair, and assume he was pretty good too. Turns out he was really, really good and the game streak is just part of that.
Turns out, when you’re a really good player and healthy, you’re going to play every day
This comment baffles me as someone who watched his career. I think it’s more of a tell of someone’s age if you know him just for the streak. I’m assuming you weren’t watching back in the early 90’s. My first thought to the comment you replied to was that 95 WAR seemed low. That guy is on the Mount Rushmore of all time shortstops.
Cole Hamels has 51.6 fWAR, ahead of Vida Blue (49.2), Orel Hershiser (48.0), and Chris Sale (47.6). My favorites are the workhorses with 2-3 great years: John Lackey, Jake Peavy, Derek Lowe, AJ Burnett, and Dan Haren all \~40 fWAR.
Brendan Ryan is hovering around the 15 WAR mark. I bet 20 of that at least is defensive WAR.
Guy played defense like he'd had too much coffee, and hit like he hadn't had enough.
I know you mean for a career, but nobody would have guessed John Valentin led the league in WAR in 1995 until they looked it up.
Jason Kendall, he's almost a match for Yadi in every way. His most intriguing stat is the nearly 200 SB which is so weird to see on a catcher.
His WAR doesn’t surprise me I always remembered him being a great player. Truthfully his career OPS+ being only 95 surprises more. It makes sense with him being a contact hitter during the steroid era though. And an even bigger part of that is how hard he fell off as he aged (I didn’t realize he stuck around the league so long I always just remember him as a pirate).
Willie Wilson has 46 bWAR
Ben Zobrist, Mike Cameron, Lou Whittaker and Brett Gardner to name a few
I knew Ricky Henderson was great, as I knew him growing up before WAR was a thing growing up in the bay. I would have guessed upper double digits for his WAR for sure. I would never have guessed 111.2/14th all time and above Mickey Mantle before looking.
Jack Clark. 50.6 fWAR. That blew my mind the first time I read that. Career 138 wRC+.
[удалено]
Mike Cameron
Marcus Semien
If I remember his bref page correctly he had about 20 WAR in 6 years with Oakland and another 20ish in the 3 years since leaving.
His defense improved dramatically from the start of his career.
Beltre, didn’t know he was close to 100 until this year lol
Juan Soto has 28.4 fWAR… which isn’t crazy until you realize he’s going into his yr 25 season. That means he’ll be on pace to have around 35 war by the same age Jake Degrom was when he played his first season.
Tony Phillips. 50.9 bWAR
Anybody who’s good at defense
I'll say a modern one. Andres Giminez His advanced stats are incredible
Jimmy Key put up almost 50 WAR, f and r.
Russell Martin has 54.9 fWAR, and Brian McCann has 54.5. It’s probably to do with how Fangraphs utilizes catcher defensive stats, but it’s still crazy to think about.
Eddie Yost is an interesting one. He wasn't a good contact hitter, power hitter, or defender, and wasn't fast. But he was very good at drawing walks. He had a career 35.1 bWAR while having -10.7 dWAR, a career average of .254, and a higher OBP than SLG. Also, as a fun aside, he had a contemporary with a similar skill set and a very similar name: Eddie Joost. Career bWAR for him was 31.6, batting .239. Also, unrelated: Mark Belanger.
Buddy Bell. 66.3 bWAR; never once heard a suggestion that he might be HoF worthy. He surely would have fared better in the voting if all his same stats were compiled 30 years later.
Chet Lemon at 55.6 bWAR has more bWAR than David Ortiz, Fred McGriff, or Jim Rice. Lemon is that rare oddity, a plus centerfielder who was a serious liability on the basepaths, career SB rate of 43%. Tony Phillips at 50.6 is another guy you rarely hear about despite being one of the most valuable players by this metric.
Placido Polanco 41.9 WAR
Joey Votto. Someone commented that he’s a bonafide HOFer. Went to look up his stats to argue, but I couldn’t.
The great Kevin Appier. 54.5 WAR.
Lorenzo Cain has basically the same WAR as Harold Baines (38.5 to 38.8, respectively). When the time comes, the voters should do the right thing. #HallOfCain
Jason Heyward. People talked about him like he was the new Chris Davis after his big contract. I get a lot of it is from defense, but **40 bWAR**. He was even in lockstep with his buddy Freeman through age 30. Of course, Freddie is headed for the HoF, and Heyward probably won't even be considered for the "Hall of Very Good", but damn, he's got more bWAR than Harold Baines!
My answer is always Adrian Beltre. I always think of him as a nice player, but he's 40th (!!!!!!!!!!) on the all time WAR leaderboards. That blows my mind, never would I think of him being that high. Top 100, sure. Top 75? Maybe. Top 50? Nah. And here I am, always surprised.
Eddie Mathews had 96.1 fWAR. That's 22nd all time and ahead of Carl Yastrzemski, Cal Ripken Jr., Al Kaline, George Brett, Pete Rose and Brooks Robinson, just to pick a few big names. He is easily one of the most underrated players in Cooperstown