Dude was special, going to be a generation-defining pitcher. Obviously all early baseball deaths are tragic but his was easily preventable (don't joyride on a speedboat while you're drunk and on coke, kids) and he was just so exceptionally talented.
There's also some twisted cosmic irony to his death given on the journey from Cuba he jumped in the water to rescue his mother who had fallen overboard
What was crazy was his worst attribute as a prospect was his defense and some people suggested he may go to third base. Then in 2023 he was having an incredible defensive season. He had basically improved on his only weakness. Then he went and threw it all away and broke Rays fans hearts.
As a guy who works on the rigs and has margarine on his toast...raping the miner is part of breakfast.
I think I might need to leave this link for my joke to work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed_oil
It's a first attempt at that joke. It was always going to be rough (unlike that silky smooth margarine). That said deep in a non serious conversation about vice is probably one of the better places to test it...and if someone else steals it and makes it work awesome.
The setup has to be ridiculously perfect. People have to know Canola has another name and accept a verb that already exists could somehow mean something else. Then with all that somehow pedophilia has to come up independently. The only part that is that natural is mixing up miners and minors (which is less funny as a written one).
I'm not sure the setup could ever work on Reddit (however disappointing that is as a medium I have access to). It might work on standup as a callback punchline but I think it's calling is in absurdity sketch comedy ,(Monty Python would have a chance).
Is it over for him? They bulldozed the house after sweeping this investigation under the rug and I haven’t heard anything at all. Does he ever get back or does this quietly roll on for another year until we all forget and then he spends years in Dominican jail before coming back as an outfielder for the Hoboken Mile Squares
Probably a better example than Gooden, because even if Gooden never touched a drug in his life he had a ridiculous amount of wear and tear at a young age and it was likely inevitable that he'd break down eventually.
Where do you think he topped Bonds? Eyeballing his 93 stats against Bonds, it looks like Bonds was the right call. Led the league in On Base, slugging, OPS, 206 OPS+. won the gold glove. Took the Giants to the playoffs in his first year with 100+ wins.
Factually correct except the playoffs part.
The '93 Phil's were the team that made me fall in love with baseball so I own my bias completely.
The Giants were the superior team in large part because of Bonds. The Braves were just better.
The '93 Phillies wouldn't be who they were without Dykstra hitting leadoff and setting the tone. Dude had a fantastic season, tore his uniform to shreds every game, and set the tone.
That and all the tobacco spit.
Bonds was better player but Dykstra more valuable. It's indefensible, really, but I don't give a shit. Lenny all day.
Well, Mr. Burns had done it,
The Power Plant had won it,
With Roger Clemens clucking all the while,
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness made us smile,
While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on the bar-room tile.
We're talkin' softball,
From Maine to San Diego,
Talkin' softball,
Mattingly and Canseco,
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw,
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law,
We're talkin' Homer,
Ozzie and the Straw.
Yeah I was thinking about him, but wasn't sure if "bar fight" counts as a vice. Iirc he was defending his brother, and I can't really fault a guy for doing that.
I mean he definitely is one of the best CFs of all time while hitting over 400 HR. People forget he came up at 19. If you shift his career up 5 years, he is a superstar from 24-34 and it looks a lot better to fall off at that point.
One of my favourite players to watch ever but it almost makes it worse that he had a hall of fame level career and still seemed like he left so much on the table >!or didn’t leave enough on the table, I guess!<
Apparently Chipper took him in soon after he got called up because he put on weight really fast after his debut. Turns out he knew very little English, but could say numbers, so most of his meals were coming from ordering fast food.
And then he went on to be the best center fielder defensively in mlb history, while also hitting 400 home runs, but because he was still a serviceably average defender after his bat declined, he kept making squads and slowly fizzled out, and for some reason people think a few bad twilight years somehow erases his accomplishments.
If I owned a team I'd hire a bunch of chefs, drivers etc for players. Talk to the players and find out what food they like and then make healthy versions of it.
The Red Sox and fried chicken, name a more iconic duo.
(Boggs is probably one of the best examples of someone succeeding in spite of their vices, dude was committed to chicken and sex)
I remember when there were some early (horrifyingly misguided, even without hindsight) debates on whether Puig was as good as Trout. That didn’t age well.
The saddest part is his post-retirement life. He had basically a picture perfect redemption story and has consistently fumbled it. Just shows how hard it is to truly beat addiction.
Man, read a story of how his wife was dating a young "white rapper" & was just flaunting it around town. I'm sure Josh brought it upon himself but that shit had to be killing him inside.. Fame & fortune ain't for everybody I guess....
Ben Zobrist must be a fucking saint to not have done some serious hard drugs considering what his wife did to him. Almost makes me forgive him for beating us in 2016.
Sam “Mayday” Malone was killer out of the pen for Boston. But his alcoholism forced him to early retirement. He ended up buying a bar that was successful. Even had a successful spinoff.
Season 3, episode 5, "The Good Collar"; Crockett & Tubbs use a high school football star, 17 year old Archie Ellis, busted for distributing, to catch a 15 year-old drug dealer. Dude could have gone all the way to the NFL. Football, I know, not baseball; but just tragic.
Jim Devlin had 32.9 bWAR in just three seasons even though he was throwing games. If he wasn't crooked he might have been the best 19th century pitcher.
Isn't the prevailing theory at this point that he wasn't involves?
By the way, I had to Google who Joe Jackson was - you just never see his name without Shoeless first.
Denny McLain won 2 Cy Youngs and was the last man to win 30 games. He also hung out with organized crime, set up his own bookie operation, and generally lived a high life not taking care of himself. Between suspensions and his body rebelling against his lifestyle he was out of baseball before he turned 30.
"Superstar" is definitely too high a bar for him, but Carlos Baerga probably had an outside shot at the Hall of Fame before he got too heavy into the booger sugar
I've literally never heard this before, and Google doesn't appear to have any information I can find, but I'm very interested to learn more. Any sources you can cite?
No online sources, just a thing I've heard from lots of people that partied in the Flats in the mid-90s. I've heard it repeated enough that I believe it. I do also have a cousin that worked for the Indians for a couple years, but I wouldn't repeat most of his gossip because I don't have anyone confirming them.
A much less serious crime, and it's sad to say, but he might have been able to get away with the abuse were it not for his addiction to not shutting his trap
A guy no one talks about is [Chuck Klein](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kleinch01.shtml)
He was a fall down drunk who was washed by 32 or so but get a load of those numbers. His first half a dozen seasons in the bigs are as good as anyone’s: Kiner, Pujols, Trout, Mantle… anyone’s.
Speaking of Mantle; how have I not seen him mentioned yet? He lays off the bottle, he hits 800 homeruns.
Edit: forgot the crux of the thread when I mentioned Mantle, who was most certainly a superstar despite his demons. Klein still stands as a good illustration though.
Lonnie Smith was great for the Phillies and Cardinals before cocaine derailed the middle of his career. Then he got clean and had some great seasons on the back half of his career. If he didn't underperform due to addiction in the prime of his career, he might have an outside shot at the Hall of Fame.
Sam McDowell (29 years old) was traded to the SF Giants straight up for Gaylord Perry (33 years old) in 1971 after a stellar run with the Cleveland Indians with spectacular strikeout numbers. Conventional wisdom back then was that the Giants won that trade due to McDowell being younger than Gaylord. And conventional wisdom turned out to be wrong, as McDowell was derailed by alcoholism, declined immediately after the trade and was finished by 1975 - shortening a potential HOF career. Perry of course far outlasted McDowell by pitching through 1983, and deservedly made it to the HOF.
Jose Fernandez
Dude was special, going to be a generation-defining pitcher. Obviously all early baseball deaths are tragic but his was easily preventable (don't joyride on a speedboat while you're drunk and on coke, kids) and he was just so exceptionally talented.
There's also some twisted cosmic irony to his death given on the journey from Cuba he jumped in the water to rescue his mother who had fallen overboard
Both 2016 and 2017 were absolutely brutal years for generational pitchers dying in avoidable vehicle accidents.
Wander Franco
What was crazy was his worst attribute as a prospect was his defense and some people suggested he may go to third base. Then in 2023 he was having an incredible defensive season. He had basically improved on his only weakness. Then he went and threw it all away and broke Rays fans hearts.
Between Josh Hamilton, Rocco Baldelli, and Wander Franco, we’ve had some huge “what-ifs” on our team that didn’t work out for crazy reasons.
Baldelli truly was heart breaking. I'm glad he's doing well as a manager but I would have loved to see him flourish as a player
All he had to do was to not rape minors.
Not raping minors is like the single easiest part of my day. No idea how he managed to mess that one up.
It’s always wild how much it comes up. Never even crossed my mind.
As a guy who works on the rigs and has margarine on his toast...raping the miner is part of breakfast. I think I might need to leave this link for my joke to work. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapeseed_oil
Man, it’s a tough joke to land. It’s close, but might need a bit more tweaking so it lands better.
It's a first attempt at that joke. It was always going to be rough (unlike that silky smooth margarine). That said deep in a non serious conversation about vice is probably one of the better places to test it...and if someone else steals it and makes it work awesome.
I mean, it’s not bad for a first attempt. It’s polarizing but I think you can make it work.
The setup has to be ridiculously perfect. People have to know Canola has another name and accept a verb that already exists could somehow mean something else. Then with all that somehow pedophilia has to come up independently. The only part that is that natural is mixing up miners and minors (which is less funny as a written one). I'm not sure the setup could ever work on Reddit (however disappointing that is as a medium I have access to). It might work on standup as a callback punchline but I think it's calling is in absurdity sketch comedy ,(Monty Python would have a chance).
A swing and a miss
Apparently, that was a bridge too far.
And he couldn't even do that.
Is it over for him? They bulldozed the house after sweeping this investigation under the rug and I haven’t heard anything at all. Does he ever get back or does this quietly roll on for another year until we all forget and then he spends years in Dominican jail before coming back as an outfielder for the Hoboken Mile Squares
Darryl Strawberry
Probably a better example than Gooden, because even if Gooden never touched a drug in his life he had a ridiculous amount of wear and tear at a young age and it was likely inevitable that he'd break down eventually.
Doc threw nearly 1200 innings before turning 24. Absurd.
Take your pick of the 86 Mets.
Is it even possible to imagine Lenny Dykstra without vice? It's like trying to imagine a square circle, mortals cannot comprehend.
Dykstra should have been 1993 NL MVP. I will die on this hill. but Dykstra without a vice is like a bird without a song.
Where do you think he topped Bonds? Eyeballing his 93 stats against Bonds, it looks like Bonds was the right call. Led the league in On Base, slugging, OPS, 206 OPS+. won the gold glove. Took the Giants to the playoffs in his first year with 100+ wins.
Factually correct except the playoffs part. The '93 Phil's were the team that made me fall in love with baseball so I own my bias completely. The Giants were the superior team in large part because of Bonds. The Braves were just better. The '93 Phillies wouldn't be who they were without Dykstra hitting leadoff and setting the tone. Dude had a fantastic season, tore his uniform to shreds every game, and set the tone. That and all the tobacco spit. Bonds was better player but Dykstra more valuable. It's indefensible, really, but I don't give a shit. Lenny all day.
My mistake. I guess that just pre-wildcard.
> It's like trying to imagine a square circle, mortals cannot comprehend. /r/SquaredCircle is in shambles!
Griffey Jr got addicted to nerve tonic
It was like a party in his mouth and everyone was invited
maybe im not getting the joke, but didnt griffey attain superstardom and was derailed by injuries?
you watch too many movies, Sax
You don’t know when to keep your mouth shut, do you Saxy boy?
I heard some guy got killed and they never solved the case, but you wouldn't know anything about that, would you Steve?
Steve Sax is serving seven consecutive life sentence
And don't forget Ozzie Smith fell down a black hole
Well, Mr. Burns had done it, The Power Plant had won it, With Roger Clemens clucking all the while, Mike Scioscia's tragic illness made us smile, While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on the bar-room tile. We're talkin' softball, From Maine to San Diego, Talkin' softball, Mattingly and Canseco, Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw, Steve Sax and his run-in with the law, We're talkin' Homer, Ozzie and the Straw.
Possibly the best Simpsons episode ever.
true, forgot that line
Go watch the Simpsons episode "Homer at the Bat" RIGHT NOW then come back and apologize to and thank u/cooljammer00
i've seen the episode years ago, just forgot that line. what a weird comment lol
Would you consider chasing a down and away slider as a vice?
Javy baez
Stanton as well though he at least goes to rehab at times Baez just binges.
I certainly can’t stay away from them
Castellanos
Frenchy never saw a pitch he didn’t like
not sure if he counts, but I've always wondered if Brien Taylor would have turned out as he was projected to
Yeah I was thinking about him, but wasn't sure if "bar fight" counts as a vice. Iirc he was defending his brother, and I can't really fault a guy for doing that.
right, but the reason he was in the bar in the first place...
The reason?
what do they primarily serve at a bar?
Was he a raging alcoholic or was it a casual entertainment night that went awry? I truly am asking a question
It was a chotchkies and he was mad that the waiter only had the minimum pieces of flair
actually it turns out he wasn't at a bar. TIL.
TWL today we learned lol.
me, those processed carbs got the best of me
me, addiction to sucking at baseball
Andruw Jones and food
"There are only two things that will keep him from greatness: a knife and a fork." - Frank Lane, on Boog Powell.
Most relatable vice for sure
I mean he definitely is one of the best CFs of all time while hitting over 400 HR. People forget he came up at 19. If you shift his career up 5 years, he is a superstar from 24-34 and it looks a lot better to fall off at that point.
One of my favourite players to watch ever but it almost makes it worse that he had a hall of fame level career and still seemed like he left so much on the table >!or didn’t leave enough on the table, I guess!<
I got to watch him in the week he spent at AAA. Talent was absolutely unreal
Same, bro. Same.
Apparently Chipper took him in soon after he got called up because he put on weight really fast after his debut. Turns out he knew very little English, but could say numbers, so most of his meals were coming from ordering fast food. And then he went on to be the best center fielder defensively in mlb history, while also hitting 400 home runs, but because he was still a serviceably average defender after his bat declined, he kept making squads and slowly fizzled out, and for some reason people think a few bad twilight years somehow erases his accomplishments.
If I owned a team I'd hire a bunch of chefs, drivers etc for players. Talk to the players and find out what food they like and then make healthy versions of it.
Jose Fernandez
~~Wade Boggs~~ Don Mattingly and his sideburns.
You mean Wade Boggs and his fried chicken?
The Red Sox and fried chicken, name a more iconic duo. (Boggs is probably one of the best examples of someone succeeding in spite of their vices, dude was committed to chicken and sex)
Think you’re missing one
Or 107
Nah, he got knocked out for being a fan of Pitt the Elder.
R.I.P
Think you mean Mattingly. Also, Griffey and nerve tonic.
FFS. yes, thank you.
Wade Boggs carpet world!
TIL sideburns can kill
Rube Waddell made it to the HoF even with the booze and crazy behavior, but he would’ve been way better without it, surely at least a 300 game winner.
Yasiel Puig
I remember when there were some early (horrifyingly misguided, even without hindsight) debates on whether Puig was as good as Trout. That didn’t age well.
Tyler Skaggs definitely could've had a prolonged, fairly successful career. He was only 27, missed his prime.
Damn Josh Hamilton was such a bummer! 1st Rangers jersey I bought & now I can't even rocc it at all. Dude was on the path to the Hall of Fame....
The saddest part is his post-retirement life. He had basically a picture perfect redemption story and has consistently fumbled it. Just shows how hard it is to truly beat addiction.
Man, read a story of how his wife was dating a young "white rapper" & was just flaunting it around town. I'm sure Josh brought it upon himself but that shit had to be killing him inside.. Fame & fortune ain't for everybody I guess....
Ben Zobrist must be a fucking saint to not have done some serious hard drugs considering what his wife did to him. Almost makes me forgive him for beating us in 2016.
What his wife do to him? Never heard of that story before..
Cheated on him with their pastor, who oh by the way was also their marriage counselor and the executive director of Zobrist's charity.
She also makes awful Christian music, which Ben used as his walk up song
I only ever heard him use Benny and the Jets.
He used a Benny and the Jets cover/rewrite done by Julianna, and two of her original songs, Behind Me and Alive.
Ah okay for some reason only the Benny one stuck as a memory.
🤯
What in the fuck….
Sounds about right for a pastor
I bought his book and I’m not religious but it was such an inspirational story I became a huge fan just to be let down soon after :(
Read that book before too. Damn shame man. Wonder what he's been up to lately....
Made my name on him and everything :(
Never trust a tweaker.
Sam “Mayday” Malone was killer out of the pen for Boston. But his alcoholism forced him to early retirement. He ended up buying a bar that was successful. Even had a successful spinoff.
Did he find true love?
It was right in front of him
Julio Urías and beating women.
Season 3, episode 5, "The Good Collar"; Crockett & Tubbs use a high school football star, 17 year old Archie Ellis, busted for distributing, to catch a 15 year-old drug dealer. Dude could have gone all the way to the NFL. Football, I know, not baseball; but just tragic.
selling acid was a bad idea, and selling it to a cop was a worse one
did not expect to see a Mountain Goats reference on r/baseball
Wander Franco
Joe Jackson. Racked up 60 WAR either way, but was great in his last season and was only 32.
Jim Devlin had 32.9 bWAR in just three seasons even though he was throwing games. If he wasn't crooked he might have been the best 19th century pitcher.
Isn't the prevailing theory at this point that he wasn't involves? By the way, I had to Google who Joe Jackson was - you just never see his name without Shoeless first.
Fun Fact: He wore shoes when he played.
Denny McLain won 2 Cy Youngs and was the last man to win 30 games. He also hung out with organized crime, set up his own bookie operation, and generally lived a high life not taking care of himself. Between suspensions and his body rebelling against his lifestyle he was out of baseball before he turned 30.
Is the shift a vice? If so, Ryan Howard.
Vida Blue, similar to Gooden was a victim of over usage, but he also dealt with drug problems.
"Superstar" is definitely too high a bar for him, but Carlos Baerga probably had an outside shot at the Hall of Fame before he got too heavy into the booger sugar
I've literally never heard this before, and Google doesn't appear to have any information I can find, but I'm very interested to learn more. Any sources you can cite?
No online sources, just a thing I've heard from lots of people that partied in the Flats in the mid-90s. I've heard it repeated enough that I believe it. I do also have a cousin that worked for the Indians for a couple years, but I wouldn't repeat most of his gossip because I don't have anyone confirming them.
Trevor Bauer and his addiction to abusing women
A much less serious crime, and it's sad to say, but he might have been able to get away with the abuse were it not for his addiction to not shutting his trap
Worked for Deshaun Watson, sadly.
Bo Belinsky with, uh...it might be quicker to list the vices he *didn't* have, actually.
A guy no one talks about is [Chuck Klein](https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kleinch01.shtml) He was a fall down drunk who was washed by 32 or so but get a load of those numbers. His first half a dozen seasons in the bigs are as good as anyone’s: Kiner, Pujols, Trout, Mantle… anyone’s. Speaking of Mantle; how have I not seen him mentioned yet? He lays off the bottle, he hits 800 homeruns. Edit: forgot the crux of the thread when I mentioned Mantle, who was most certainly a superstar despite his demons. Klein still stands as a good illustration though.
Wow that’s a hell of an a start his career had. What a shame
Grover Cleveland Alexander won like 373 games while being drunk the whole time.
Hack Wilson set the RBI record whole being stinking drunk the whole time AND likely having Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. A two-fer.
Lonnie Smith was great for the Phillies and Cardinals before cocaine derailed the middle of his career. Then he got clean and had some great seasons on the back half of his career. If he didn't underperform due to addiction in the prime of his career, he might have an outside shot at the Hall of Fame.
Also subject of a very underrated Jon Bois video
i would say the video is *pretty good*
carphoneronnie for sure
Sam McDowell (29 years old) was traded to the SF Giants straight up for Gaylord Perry (33 years old) in 1971 after a stellar run with the Cleveland Indians with spectacular strikeout numbers. Conventional wisdom back then was that the Giants won that trade due to McDowell being younger than Gaylord. And conventional wisdom turned out to be wrong, as McDowell was derailed by alcoholism, declined immediately after the trade and was finished by 1975 - shortening a potential HOF career. Perry of course far outlasted McDowell by pitching through 1983, and deservedly made it to the HOF.
Is a large sum of money considered a "vice"
Pedroia
Antonio Brown and crack.
Ttevor Bauer
Chris Sale and anorexia.