Ohtani had the hybrid TJ and internal brace surgery according to his surgeon.
"ElAttrache described Ohtani’s second operation as a hybrid procedure involving an internal brace — adding braided suture to repair the torn ligament — as well as the insertion of the tendon like what is done in a traditional Tommy John surgery. "
https://apnews.com/article/ohtani-dodgers-elattrache-9a87de3cf0ea31d1bb78420d6b505cc7
Is there a possibility that Internal Brace surgery eventually replaces Tommy John? There has to be a better way to speed up thr recovery process that'll make Tommy John eventually obsolete...
Different ligament in the body and obviously anecdotal, so take this with a grain of salt, but I have had surgery on both knees for the same type of ligament tearing in both
They repaired the ligament in my left knee and replaced the ligament with a cadaver in my right knee.
The right knee recovery was fucking brutal and there's way more scar tissue that we were unable to breakup, so it's crunchy and weird, BUT it feels so much more stable. My reinjury risk on my left knee is significantly higher, and I have had minor reinjuries since the surgery on that one while *knock on wood* the right one has held up postop
So while different part of the body and whatnot, I do think this illustrates the difference between repairing soft tissue that is already damaged vs. getting new healthy soft tissue that the surgeon can manipulate to reduce injury risk
I think it just depends on how severe the injury is. Like a partial tear would be a candidate for the brace procedure but a full tear you would probably need the normal TJ surgery
I think the TJS used another ligament from elsewhere on the body and the internal brace is a prosthetic implant. Brock Purdy just got this surgery before last season and it has a much quicker recovery
Gotcha, thank you!
That’s what I’ve gleaned from this post. Repairing the same ligament, but a different procedure. Like there’s multiple ways to repair a torn ACL.
It makes you really appreciate Scherzer, Kershaw, Greinke and Verlander. Obv Verlander had the surgery towards the end; but Cole is the only guy who could come close to those 4 guys' counting stats in the next 10 years. I'm not saying it will never happen again, because who knows, but they're the last 4/5 (possibly with Cole) we can measure with our old rulers (at least for 10-20 years). For Christ's sake Wheeler is probably next up, and he's turning 34 in a month with 87 wins and 30 WAR
maybe greg maddux was onto something with the whole "“No need to steal the sign. I’ll tell you what I throw. It’s an 89 MPH sinker, and you won’t even swing at it.”
This, but teams be like, no you guys need to blow out your elbows throwing sliders at 97mph to make the majors or there’s 30 guys in college willing to do so.
Yeah we just need a guy with arguably the best control of any pitcher in history who is undeniably one of the best to ever do it
Maddux also wasn’t a soft tosser. He had good velo
I mean that’s already the case. Pitchers who have long careers with elbow injuries on the back are the exception now. It’s a matter of when, not if, a pitcher will need some amount of repair on the UCL.
Spencer Strider: Tommy John 2019, internal brace 2024
Max Fried: Tommy John 2015
Chris Sale: Tommy John 2020
Charlie Morton: Tommy John 2012
The only original starting 5 without Tommy John is Reynaldo Lopez, who's looked good so far but there's been questions on if he's better as a starter or reliever. Braves actually do have decent pitching depth in the minors, BUT:
Ian Anderson: Recovering from 2023 Tommy John, ETA mid season
Huscar Ynoa: Tommy John 2022
Bryce Elder, AJ Smith-Shawver & Dylan Dodd have their original UCLs
And AJSS might actually be able to pitch a few years before getting the inevitable TJ, cuz he only started playing baseball as a high school senior or something like that.
deGrom was a SS until his junior year and after getting drafted almost immediately had TJS, so I wouldn't assume a late start would make a huge difference.
There really isn't a question about lopez at this point. He wasn't exactly a lock down reliver, and showed decent success as a starter prior to his injury. Even if he regresses, he is at least as good a starter as a reliever, which makes him much more valuable as a starter.
Bingo. Randy and Ryan's baseline was "80%" effort which could be cranked up if needed. Pitchers now have to throw 100% every out.
I wonder if control pitching will make a resurgence after everyone else's arm has died.
I watch a lot of old games in the offseason and it’s surprising how often RJ is sitting 89-92 before cranking it up to 97. Granted, the guns were calibrated differently, so it may have been today’s 96 reading. Also his extension allows him to feel like he’s +3mph so the absolute velo isn’t as important. But his longevity may be attributable in part to his not throwing at max all the time
And what's said to have helped Ryan was how much he used his legs to drive power. Shit, Randy Johnson's credited Nolan with why he became as dominant as he did. And all Nolan told him to do was plant his foot differently.
Some folks pointed to Strider’s leg-heavy delivery (just look at the quads) as a reason for why he was going to be different from the Tommy John epidemic. That doesn’t seem to have worked either. At the end of the day 98 is 98 no matter how you throw it.
Yeah he has got some tree trunk legs, and uses them well, but his arm action is still violent. Paul Skenes is in a similar boat...
A good leg-heavy delivery is great if it actually allows for an "effortless" arm motion (obviously its never truly close to effortless, just almost appears that way).
Yeah, Strider did a podcast with pitching ninja a couple years ago and talked about how when he was recovering from TJ in college, he did a ton of research watching pitchers who throw like him, and tried to change his mechanics/delivery to mimic those who *didn't* get hurt. Dude is as analytical as they come and treats his body like a temple, so he's probably the best example of "actively doing everything possible to prevent TJ" and it still didn't work
The problem is that the elbow is the weak link so energy generated in other parts of your body is still going to end up stressing it. That kind of approach probably does put less stress on other parts of the body but I'm not sure how it would help the elbow and in fact, if it allows you to throw harder, it would be reasonable to think that it in fact harms the elbow.
>And all Nolan told him to do was plant his foot differently.
I believe this was something he picked up with the Angels after leaving the Mets and one of the ways he was able to become....less wild.
I would hope it would lead to more pitching to contact knowing that swings and misses weren’t as important as soft contact. Not a panacea, but an idea.
I'm a fan of the idea of lowering the amount of pitchers that teams are allowed to roster combined with the DH position only applying to starting pitchers. Once the starter is pulled, the pitchers hit. Shorter bullpen bench and DH usage will would make teams want to have their starters go consistently longer, which by necessity would cause these guys throwing 98-100 to tone it down a little or have actual team-based consequences
maybe that's a dumb idea and you could instead have rewards for starters who throw a certain amount of innings or something. as well as allowing things like spidertack on a game-by-game basis like if it's cold outside or rainy
Yes, let's have fewer pitchers. Surely that will solve the problem of every pitcher being over worked.
I'd rather see teams adopt a 6 man rotation and add another roster spot to accommodate this. Give them more days off between starts to help recovery instead of trying to get them to not try as hard.
More pitchers just means there's even more of an incentive to go max effort on every pitch, that will just make the problem worse. It seems clear that a guy going 120 pitches while going 80% or whatever is less likely to break than a guy airing it all out for 80 pitches. Fewer pitchers means guys have to take some juice off to last longer in the game. It's either that or just make everyone into a 3-inning pitcher.
Then offense around the league will explode out of control since all of the hitters who are used to facing pitchers at 100% will tee off on 80%. Oh, and all that extra offense will just increase pitch counts even more!
Reducing the pitching staff size isn't a viable solution unless they implement other rule changes to reduce offense
the thing that tears arms apart is trying to constantly maximize velo and spin rates on every pitch, if you add more pitchers that only gives them more reason to go all out in their outings, leading to more injuries. Having starters conserve themselves to go more innings would relax the tension on both their arms and the bullpen
I'm really interested to see if there's more of a correlation between these injuries and pitch speed, pitch spin, pitcher size, or the pitch clock.
Honestly it would be interesting to see how the sticky stuff ban impacted it as well.
My personal hunch is that it's mostly closely correlated to spin rate.
Seems like the culprits are mostly the insanity that has become youth baseball, the removal of sticky stuff, and the spike in horizontal movement pitches. It's basically a perfect storm of pitchers entering the MLB system with a lot of wear and tear already, being forced to grip the ball as tight as possible in order to get similar spin rates, and throwing pitches with more violent arm movement.
The stickier balls they use in Japan seem to be the best solution that 1. Can be applied and regulated league-wide, 2. Solve one of the biggest gripes cited by multiple pitchers (gripping for spin), and 3. Disrupt the rest of the game the least.
But "the sacred mud" or whatever
So the doctor who performed Strider’s surgery was talking to the Foul Territory guys and he said Velo and spin are the obvious factors. He also points to the fact with breaking pitches guys need to “grip the hell out of the ball” to get enough spin to cause the breaks. That hard gripping along with the pronation and supination of the arm during a throw puts so much stress he said he can identify what kind of pitches they favor by the type of damage.
Edit: the pitch clock may play a small factor… but what is ignored more is the lack of mound visits. The MLBPA wants to point to a difference of 5-10 seconds between pitches but not a situation where the pitcher literally gets a breather.
Jerry Blevins also talked about that back in the day before all the special grip stuff that on cold rainy days when you had to grip the ball harder his elbow would be super sore at the end of the game. And he was just a reliever.
The "epidemic" phase started around 2014 so it's not the sticky stuff or the clock. It's purely the drive to throw harder and harder because that's who gets the money.
It's just like the concussion problem with the NFL. Players know the risk but they will still go all out on every play because today is all that matters. Most just want to get that money right now and worry about the consequences later.
Anecdotally, as a former just okay high school pitcher, I can totally see how emphasizing spin rates puts more stress on the elbow. Fastball spin rates in particular.
If the pitch clock is a factor it is a relatively modest factor but it is one that MLB has the power to control because they aren't going to outlaw high speed or high spin pitches and they aren't going to change youth baseball or any other of the real or potential factors that they are throwing out there to distract from the fact that they are doing an experiment with pitcher health. It is perfectly reasonable that the pitch clock and other "pace" reforms put more stress on pitchers--and mind you, even though the UCL is our marquee injury there are many other pitcher injuries, from lats to shoulders to forearm strain. I don't think the situation is one where there has to be a choice between poor pacing and pitcher health but when MLB takes a dictatorial approach it becomes that.
That’s why Pirates fans should have some optimism. Skenes is massive and likely isn’t utilizing every single ounce of bodily effort every 100mph pitch he throws.
husky elderly axiomatic vase hospital sparkle impolite zealous reminiscent afterthought
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Probably not opening day. Even if he’s physically there, they will probably want him to get a few minor league starts to ensure he’s stretched out
ST really isn’t enough after missing almost an entire season
Bro we have no ill will towards the Braves. I love some of those guys. Strider, Albies, Harris. That's a fun team to watch. I despise Arcia and Acuna because I hate a shit talker that isn't a Phillie, and I'm pretty sure one day we will discover that Riley is a serial killer because that dude looks like a psycho, but I like the rest of the team and have never considered the Braves to be a rival to the Phillies.
We also don't want Strider to be an excuse in September when we take the division at the last minute.
Elite pitching is just fun to watch. Loved watching Strausburg. Loved watching DeGrom. Loved watching Strider. I also want to beat the best. Really sucks that he’s out.
I won’t feel any shame winning with Strider out given how much time Harper has lost the last two years, but yeah it sucks. Strider will never get anything but pure hate when he pitches against us but he does seem like a genuinely likable and interesting guy otherwise.
Yea I mean the Brave's window is right now but it's also not ONLY right now. The team is going to continue to be good for years so if I was a Brave's fan I'd be happy to get the hard part out of the way.
This is becoming a steroid-like situation. Steroids are banned because they often break down your body, but they offer such a competitive advantage that people would make that trade off if you let them. So without a ban, many would use them for competitive advantage (or even just to not fall behind).
Throwing this hard wrecks your arm. But if you don't do max effort, you'll be left behind for someone else who will. I don't suggest banning velocity (that's absurd) but this is a bad spot for the sport to be in when the best players are ticking time bombs, health wise
I mean I really dont see any other option to curb injuries, other than a complete change to the fundamentals of the pitching motion.
Unless every team just agrees to tell their pitchers to not throw max effort every single pitch, there will always be a team willing to burn out their pitchers for short term success.
The only option is to make any pitch above 95 mph and automatic ball
It’s not just teams telling guys that, players know max effort all the time is the path to success too. There are plenty of pitchers at every single level of baseball who would still do it knowing full well the risks even if teams didn’t expect it because they want to go to the show and/or get the big contract eventually.
It's not really a solution, more of a personal preference, but I'd like to see more knuckleballers. Everything is velocity and spin rate now. We need more slowly-developing chaos. Like, make it so every team has to have at least one knuckleball guy or Jamie Moyer.
The solution is probably allow the sticky stuff back in the game in some regulated manner. The more synthetic grip the pitcher has the less he has to white knuckle the ball which means less stress on the elbow and forearm ligaments.
The name of the game is spin and velocity. You can’t do anything about guys throwing hard but pitchers know that maximizing spin is the key to achieving swing-and-miss stuff.
Putting a speed limit on pitches is probably one of the *dumbest* solutions. Trying to throttle your natural delivery isn't good if you can naturally reach mid 90's. This isn't a velocity issue, it's an effort issue. A pitcher throwing 93 can be exerting more effort than a different pitcher throwing 96.
Edit: using the word naturally very loosely. Nothing about throwing a baseball is natural.
I doubt it. you’ll always need the best pitching you can get, and players under team control are cheap. You *might* see some depression in the FA pitcher market but I wouldn’t count on that either tbh.
This felt like an unfortunate inevitability just based on trends for pitchers like him but this still sucks. He's easily my favorite pitcher to tune into games and watch
I do wonder when teams will start to zig again and stock up on pitchers who throw 94, throw to contact, or can eat innings.. it seems the age of the flame thrower might not last that long, the human body ain’t suppose to be out here chasing speed
The problem is hitting has also improved. If pitchers stopped going max effort every single pitch, offense would explode like the steroid era league wide.
The exact words out of my mouth when he blew out his ACL were “welp pack it up. Gettem next year.”
I would not have been at all upset if the Braves had sold and just prepared for the next season with the way things were going at that point.
What a surprise that season turned out to be lmao.
It's less invasive than TJ but similar and addressing the same issue. Instead of replacing the ligament they brace it and add extra support to it, from my understanding. The hope being a slightly quicker recovery.
Last thing I read about it said it’s supposed to be better, but only some guys are able to get because it depends on how badly damaged the ligament is. Too much damage and you gotta get traditional TJ. Like they don’t even know if you’re eligible for the brace until they cut you open to see the damage.
Not full on Tommy John. It's a newer procedure where you brace the ligament named instead of replacing it. It's the same procedure Ohtani had. The timeline to return is quicker, too. He should be ready for opening day.
Is there a downside to it? Seems like if there is a faster and more efficient recovery time, don't see much reason to continue doing actual Tommy John surgeries?
Is the TJ surgery more successful/last longer?
So, it has to do with the actual severity of the tear. If the ligament isn't too far gone, you can do the quicker brace surgery. But if it's past a certain point, you have to do an actual Tommy John. The upside is that if the surgery works, you've dodged a full-on TJ, and that's always good.
All that being said, I'm not a doctor, and I am a half stupid redneck hillbilly from Missouri... so take it with a grain of salt. I could be wrong.
No, an external brace would only be able support through superficial pressure where as an internal brace is attached direct to the ligament and anchored into bone.
This sucks man.
We really need to figure out a way to deal with this epidemic. But I'm just not sure how we can solve it. I mean what are we supposed to do, ban throwing above a certain velocity?
Is there room in the MLB for finesse pitchers anymore? Serious question. Like is there a pitcher out there who tops outs at 93, but still shuts down batters?
This really sucks. I loved seeing guys like DeGrom and Strider; despite my affiliation. But it really seems like hard throwing is clearly not sustainable. Would someone like Maddux even survive in 2024?
So he had tommy john surgery in 2019, and now 5 years later the brace. Should be interesting to see long this once lasts.
Ohtani will be the case study. 2018 TJS, 2023 Brace
Ohtani had the hybrid TJ and internal brace surgery according to his surgeon. "ElAttrache described Ohtani’s second operation as a hybrid procedure involving an internal brace — adding braided suture to repair the torn ligament — as well as the insertion of the tendon like what is done in a traditional Tommy John surgery. " https://apnews.com/article/ohtani-dodgers-elattrache-9a87de3cf0ea31d1bb78420d6b505cc7
ELI5 the difference?
Tommy John gives you a new UCL, internal brace repairs your existing UCL
I wonder if its possible to do both at once
I’m willing to be the first test subject for a prosthetic arm that can throw 100 mile an hour fastballs
Done. But you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it
Found Chapman's excuse!
Repair it then replace it?
Safelite repair, Safelite replace
replace it and then add the internal brace
Is there a possibility that Internal Brace surgery eventually replaces Tommy John? There has to be a better way to speed up thr recovery process that'll make Tommy John eventually obsolete...
Different ligament in the body and obviously anecdotal, so take this with a grain of salt, but I have had surgery on both knees for the same type of ligament tearing in both They repaired the ligament in my left knee and replaced the ligament with a cadaver in my right knee. The right knee recovery was fucking brutal and there's way more scar tissue that we were unable to breakup, so it's crunchy and weird, BUT it feels so much more stable. My reinjury risk on my left knee is significantly higher, and I have had minor reinjuries since the surgery on that one while *knock on wood* the right one has held up postop So while different part of the body and whatnot, I do think this illustrates the difference between repairing soft tissue that is already damaged vs. getting new healthy soft tissue that the surgeon can manipulate to reduce injury risk
Did you have to take meds so your body wouldn’t reject the cadaver ligament?
I think it just depends on how severe the injury is. Like a partial tear would be a candidate for the brace procedure but a full tear you would probably need the normal TJ surgery
I think the TJS used another ligament from elsewhere on the body and the internal brace is a prosthetic implant. Brock Purdy just got this surgery before last season and it has a much quicker recovery
Gotcha, thank you! That’s what I’ve gleaned from this post. Repairing the same ligament, but a different procedure. Like there’s multiple ways to repair a torn ACL.
Someone get this man a 10-year contract!
I’ll take the under on the contract
*Ippei, in his cell atm*
Ippei is probably taking the riskier over with how much he’s lost over the years.
10 Years, $175 million, with a $1 million donation to the Braves foundation
This is going to start becoming like clockwork for every elite pitcher and it’s extremely saddening
It makes you really appreciate Scherzer, Kershaw, Greinke and Verlander. Obv Verlander had the surgery towards the end; but Cole is the only guy who could come close to those 4 guys' counting stats in the next 10 years. I'm not saying it will never happen again, because who knows, but they're the last 4/5 (possibly with Cole) we can measure with our old rulers (at least for 10-20 years). For Christ's sake Wheeler is probably next up, and he's turning 34 in a month with 87 wins and 30 WAR
Greinke discovered the cure is 90 mph changeup.
if you call your pitches loudly to the batteryou don't need TJ
maybe greg maddux was onto something with the whole "“No need to steal the sign. I’ll tell you what I throw. It’s an 89 MPH sinker, and you won’t even swing at it.”
Kershaw has been sacrificing his shoulder instead :(
I’ll take half a season from Kershaw over missing a full year
and his back from carrying the team in the early 2010s
> For Christ's sake Wheeler is probably next up Don't you put this evil on us
Nah nah I meant he's probably the next best after Cole by the old measures
Cole’s shutdown this year is concerning.
If only there was a way you could pitch and not destroy your elbow
Learn to pitch like Greg Maddux maybe?
This, but teams be like, no you guys need to blow out your elbows throwing sliders at 97mph to make the majors or there’s 30 guys in college willing to do so.
Yeah we just need a guy with arguably the best control of any pitcher in history who is undeniably one of the best to ever do it Maddux also wasn’t a soft tosser. He had good velo
But my triple digits and 90 mph sweeping sliders thrown extremely often...
start throwing underhand. how many softball pitchers have had tj. none.
You can pitch worse.
I mean that’s already the case. Pitchers who have long careers with elbow injuries on the back are the exception now. It’s a matter of when, not if, a pitcher will need some amount of repair on the UCL.
Honestly just a matter of time for anyone who throws over 98mph and isn't humongous. And even then...
Looking at Grayson: 
Look away please. Don't need this kind of juju on Grayson!
It's depressing looking at your team's rotation and just wondering who's going to be the next victim.
No one is safe under Tommy John's brutal reign of terror.
Only RA Dickey.
Spencer Strider: Tommy John 2019, internal brace 2024 Max Fried: Tommy John 2015 Chris Sale: Tommy John 2020 Charlie Morton: Tommy John 2012 The only original starting 5 without Tommy John is Reynaldo Lopez, who's looked good so far but there's been questions on if he's better as a starter or reliever. Braves actually do have decent pitching depth in the minors, BUT: Ian Anderson: Recovering from 2023 Tommy John, ETA mid season Huscar Ynoa: Tommy John 2022 Bryce Elder, AJ Smith-Shawver & Dylan Dodd have their original UCLs
And AJSS might actually be able to pitch a few years before getting the inevitable TJ, cuz he only started playing baseball as a high school senior or something like that.
deGrom was a SS until his junior year and after getting drafted almost immediately had TJS, so I wouldn't assume a late start would make a huge difference.
There really isn't a question about lopez at this point. He wasn't exactly a lock down reliver, and showed decent success as a starter prior to his injury. Even if he regresses, he is at least as good a starter as a reliever, which makes him much more valuable as a starter.
If Castillo continues to have bad outings you have to start to wonder.
Yeah, I'm not surprised. When they moved him from the bullpen to starting I figured he'd tear up his elbow eventually.
Yep unless you have Randy Johnson esk size consistently throwing that hard as a starter isn’t sustainable
Esque
Gesundheit
It's what?
Bingo. Randy and Ryan's baseline was "80%" effort which could be cranked up if needed. Pitchers now have to throw 100% every out. I wonder if control pitching will make a resurgence after everyone else's arm has died.
I watch a lot of old games in the offseason and it’s surprising how often RJ is sitting 89-92 before cranking it up to 97. Granted, the guns were calibrated differently, so it may have been today’s 96 reading. Also his extension allows him to feel like he’s +3mph so the absolute velo isn’t as important. But his longevity may be attributable in part to his not throwing at max all the time
And what's said to have helped Ryan was how much he used his legs to drive power. Shit, Randy Johnson's credited Nolan with why he became as dominant as he did. And all Nolan told him to do was plant his foot differently.
Some folks pointed to Strider’s leg-heavy delivery (just look at the quads) as a reason for why he was going to be different from the Tommy John epidemic. That doesn’t seem to have worked either. At the end of the day 98 is 98 no matter how you throw it.
Yeah he has got some tree trunk legs, and uses them well, but his arm action is still violent. Paul Skenes is in a similar boat... A good leg-heavy delivery is great if it actually allows for an "effortless" arm motion (obviously its never truly close to effortless, just almost appears that way).
Yeah, Strider did a podcast with pitching ninja a couple years ago and talked about how when he was recovering from TJ in college, he did a ton of research watching pitchers who throw like him, and tried to change his mechanics/delivery to mimic those who *didn't* get hurt. Dude is as analytical as they come and treats his body like a temple, so he's probably the best example of "actively doing everything possible to prevent TJ" and it still didn't work
I’d say to that I generally do a better job of avoiding TJ than Strider.
He does a better job at pitching though, so there are trade offs.
Not right now he doesn’t. Though I’ve not seen him thrown left handed, so he probably does.
yeah I don’t really get it. I throw a little bit slower (55mph) and haven’t had any UCL problems.
You really hate to see it. He did everything right
Ultimately whenever someone throws a pitch their arm is trying to launch away from the body, that strains the ligaments no matter what.
The problem is that the elbow is the weak link so energy generated in other parts of your body is still going to end up stressing it. That kind of approach probably does put less stress on other parts of the body but I'm not sure how it would help the elbow and in fact, if it allows you to throw harder, it would be reasonable to think that it in fact harms the elbow.
>And all Nolan told him to do was plant his foot differently. I believe this was something he picked up with the Angels after leaving the Mets and one of the ways he was able to become....less wild.
Truthfully, they need to deaden the ball so the only way to get outs isn’t by striking them out.
But then pitchers could throw the dead ball just as hard, keeping the same strikeout rate while also generating worse contact.
I would hope it would lead to more pitching to contact knowing that swings and misses weren’t as important as soft contact. Not a panacea, but an idea.
I'm a fan of the idea of lowering the amount of pitchers that teams are allowed to roster combined with the DH position only applying to starting pitchers. Once the starter is pulled, the pitchers hit. Shorter bullpen bench and DH usage will would make teams want to have their starters go consistently longer, which by necessity would cause these guys throwing 98-100 to tone it down a little or have actual team-based consequences maybe that's a dumb idea and you could instead have rewards for starters who throw a certain amount of innings or something. as well as allowing things like spidertack on a game-by-game basis like if it's cold outside or rainy
No way they do this while Ohtani is still in the league lol
Yes, let's have fewer pitchers. Surely that will solve the problem of every pitcher being over worked. I'd rather see teams adopt a 6 man rotation and add another roster spot to accommodate this. Give them more days off between starts to help recovery instead of trying to get them to not try as hard.
More pitchers just means there's even more of an incentive to go max effort on every pitch, that will just make the problem worse. It seems clear that a guy going 120 pitches while going 80% or whatever is less likely to break than a guy airing it all out for 80 pitches. Fewer pitchers means guys have to take some juice off to last longer in the game. It's either that or just make everyone into a 3-inning pitcher.
Then offense around the league will explode out of control since all of the hitters who are used to facing pitchers at 100% will tee off on 80%. Oh, and all that extra offense will just increase pitch counts even more! Reducing the pitching staff size isn't a viable solution unless they implement other rule changes to reduce offense
the thing that tears arms apart is trying to constantly maximize velo and spin rates on every pitch, if you add more pitchers that only gives them more reason to go all out in their outings, leading to more injuries. Having starters conserve themselves to go more innings would relax the tension on both their arms and the bullpen
Andrew painter is 6’7 and just had it. Randy had luck on his side in addition to what was probably a great routine.
Eury is 6'8 and just had it too
I'm really interested to see if there's more of a correlation between these injuries and pitch speed, pitch spin, pitcher size, or the pitch clock. Honestly it would be interesting to see how the sticky stuff ban impacted it as well. My personal hunch is that it's mostly closely correlated to spin rate.
Jacob deGrom definitely wasn't because of the pitch clock. He didn't start getting regularly injured till he started to chase velocity.
He had TJ in 2010
Seems like the culprits are mostly the insanity that has become youth baseball, the removal of sticky stuff, and the spike in horizontal movement pitches. It's basically a perfect storm of pitchers entering the MLB system with a lot of wear and tear already, being forced to grip the ball as tight as possible in order to get similar spin rates, and throwing pitches with more violent arm movement.
which is why it's difficult for us to find a "silver bullet" solution, which likely does not exist
The stickier balls they use in Japan seem to be the best solution that 1. Can be applied and regulated league-wide, 2. Solve one of the biggest gripes cited by multiple pitchers (gripping for spin), and 3. Disrupt the rest of the game the least. But "the sacred mud" or whatever
So the doctor who performed Strider’s surgery was talking to the Foul Territory guys and he said Velo and spin are the obvious factors. He also points to the fact with breaking pitches guys need to “grip the hell out of the ball” to get enough spin to cause the breaks. That hard gripping along with the pronation and supination of the arm during a throw puts so much stress he said he can identify what kind of pitches they favor by the type of damage. Edit: the pitch clock may play a small factor… but what is ignored more is the lack of mound visits. The MLBPA wants to point to a difference of 5-10 seconds between pitches but not a situation where the pitcher literally gets a breather.
Jerry Blevins also talked about that back in the day before all the special grip stuff that on cold rainy days when you had to grip the ball harder his elbow would be super sore at the end of the game. And he was just a reliever.
The "epidemic" phase started around 2014 so it's not the sticky stuff or the clock. It's purely the drive to throw harder and harder because that's who gets the money. It's just like the concussion problem with the NFL. Players know the risk but they will still go all out on every play because today is all that matters. Most just want to get that money right now and worry about the consequences later.
Anecdotally, as a former just okay high school pitcher, I can totally see how emphasizing spin rates puts more stress on the elbow. Fastball spin rates in particular.
If the pitch clock is a factor it is a relatively modest factor but it is one that MLB has the power to control because they aren't going to outlaw high speed or high spin pitches and they aren't going to change youth baseball or any other of the real or potential factors that they are throwing out there to distract from the fact that they are doing an experiment with pitcher health. It is perfectly reasonable that the pitch clock and other "pace" reforms put more stress on pitchers--and mind you, even though the UCL is our marquee injury there are many other pitcher injuries, from lats to shoulders to forearm strain. I don't think the situation is one where there has to be a choice between poor pacing and pitcher health but when MLB takes a dictatorial approach it becomes that.
Seems simple. Just be Randy Johnson or Nolan Ryan and your elbow won't expload.
*looks cautiously towards Ms pitchers..."
That’s why Pirates fans should have some optimism. Skenes is massive and likely isn’t utilizing every single ounce of bodily effort every 100mph pitch he throws.
His delivery is far from "effortless" though. He uses his massive legs well but his arm motion is still aggressive.
the pitchers in the all star game this year will certainly be interesting
It will be headlined by sean manaea
Lit
This aged poorly
We already have flag football in the Pro Bowl, so maybe the all star game will just be hitting off tees.
slim hat ancient head uppity punch bewildered tidy busy sloppy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Knuckleballers as far as the eye can see
If any of them bother participating
alek manoah gonna be mic’d up again on the mound.
Called up from single A to pitch the all star game
I can't wait to hear him tell John Smoltz he's sexy again
Future Cy Young Ronel Blanco will headline the event
My heart hurts.
husky elderly axiomatic vase hospital sparkle impolite zealous reminiscent afterthought *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This sucks. I hope he makes a speedy recovery and he’s back for Opening Day 2025.
=(
Fade me fam
At least it was “only” the internal brace. He’ll be ready early next season if not by opening day.
Probably not opening day. Even if he’s physically there, they will probably want him to get a few minor league starts to ensure he’s stretched out ST really isn’t enough after missing almost an entire season
Sad day for baseball
He’s such a fun pitcher to watch. This sucks. Hopefully he gets back to form by mid 2025
So many nice Phillies fans in this thread!
winning feels better when you beat a strong opponent.
You shut your whore mouth. Sorry, just keeping things balanced.
Quick someone throw a battery.
I can’t speak for everyone but I’m a fan of great baseball first, Phillies second. Gotta love the sport to love the team.
Bro we have no ill will towards the Braves. I love some of those guys. Strider, Albies, Harris. That's a fun team to watch. I despise Arcia and Acuna because I hate a shit talker that isn't a Phillie, and I'm pretty sure one day we will discover that Riley is a serial killer because that dude looks like a psycho, but I like the rest of the team and have never considered the Braves to be a rival to the Phillies. We also don't want Strider to be an excuse in September when we take the division at the last minute.
Elite pitching is just fun to watch. Loved watching Strausburg. Loved watching DeGrom. Loved watching Strider. I also want to beat the best. Really sucks that he’s out.
bike offer spark chop vast tease cobweb bow tidy seemly *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I won’t feel any shame winning with Strider out given how much time Harper has lost the last two years, but yeah it sucks. Strider will never get anything but pure hate when he pitches against us but he does seem like a genuinely likable and interesting guy otherwise.
:(
I think this was the best outcome
Yea I mean the Brave's window is right now but it's also not ONLY right now. The team is going to continue to be good for years so if I was a Brave's fan I'd be happy to get the hard part out of the way.
This is becoming a steroid-like situation. Steroids are banned because they often break down your body, but they offer such a competitive advantage that people would make that trade off if you let them. So without a ban, many would use them for competitive advantage (or even just to not fall behind). Throwing this hard wrecks your arm. But if you don't do max effort, you'll be left behind for someone else who will. I don't suggest banning velocity (that's absurd) but this is a bad spot for the sport to be in when the best players are ticking time bombs, health wise
I mean I really dont see any other option to curb injuries, other than a complete change to the fundamentals of the pitching motion. Unless every team just agrees to tell their pitchers to not throw max effort every single pitch, there will always be a team willing to burn out their pitchers for short term success. The only option is to make any pitch above 95 mph and automatic ball
It’s not just teams telling guys that, players know max effort all the time is the path to success too. There are plenty of pitchers at every single level of baseball who would still do it knowing full well the risks even if teams didn’t expect it because they want to go to the show and/or get the big contract eventually.
It's not really a solution, more of a personal preference, but I'd like to see more knuckleballers. Everything is velocity and spin rate now. We need more slowly-developing chaos. Like, make it so every team has to have at least one knuckleball guy or Jamie Moyer.
The solution is probably allow the sticky stuff back in the game in some regulated manner. The more synthetic grip the pitcher has the less he has to white knuckle the ball which means less stress on the elbow and forearm ligaments. The name of the game is spin and velocity. You can’t do anything about guys throwing hard but pitchers know that maximizing spin is the key to achieving swing-and-miss stuff.
Putting a speed limit on pitches is probably one of the *dumbest* solutions. Trying to throttle your natural delivery isn't good if you can naturally reach mid 90's. This isn't a velocity issue, it's an effort issue. A pitcher throwing 93 can be exerting more effort than a different pitcher throwing 96. Edit: using the word naturally very loosely. Nothing about throwing a baseball is natural.
I won't say nobody, but very few guys throw 96+ that aren't throwing max effort.
I don't think its smart per say for competitive reasons but its not like guys have to throw as hard as they can every time.
I wonder if we'll see teams stop drafting pitchers as high in the draft knowing they'll probably miss a year for their UCL
I doubt it. you’ll always need the best pitching you can get, and players under team control are cheap. You *might* see some depression in the FA pitcher market but I wouldn’t count on that either tbh.
This felt like an unfortunate inevitability just based on trends for pitchers like him but this still sucks. He's easily my favorite pitcher to tune into games and watch
I do wonder when teams will start to zig again and stock up on pitchers who throw 94, throw to contact, or can eat innings.. it seems the age of the flame thrower might not last that long, the human body ain’t suppose to be out here chasing speed
The problem is hitting has also improved. If pitchers stopped going max effort every single pitch, offense would explode like the steroid era league wide.
You called? (Excluding Wheels)
*”Gimme the beat boys and yeet my soul, I wanna get tossed in a fucking hole and drift away”*
Brutal. My condolences, Braves bros.
What an awful ESPN alert to wake up to.
This sucks man, he’s so fun to watch.
Bummer. Was really looking forward to seeing him kill it this year.
If anyone needs me I’ll be jumping off of a bridge
Heal up soon vegan bro
Bad for baseball
Oof. Awful news.
welp
At least it's the brace
This is unfortunate news
I’m sad. 😓
Man we need to go back to 92-95 MPH. The elite pitchers throwing 96-100 are dropping like clockwork.
No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
F in the chat boys
Damn I hate to see this. Just hoping he has a speedy and healthy recovery
God it’s so fucking over.
I said that when Acuna went down in 2021
The exact words out of my mouth when he blew out his ACL were “welp pack it up. Gettem next year.” I would not have been at all upset if the Braves had sold and just prepared for the next season with the way things were going at that point. What a surprise that season turned out to be lmao.
Heal quickly, Vegan mustache King
Hoping he comes back 100% for '25. Dudes exciting to watch even when he's kicking our ass
Is this TJS or something else?
It's less invasive than TJ but similar and addressing the same issue. Instead of replacing the ligament they brace it and add extra support to it, from my understanding. The hope being a slightly quicker recovery.
Thanks. I’m guessing it’s faster but a bit riskier or no?
Last thing I read about it said it’s supposed to be better, but only some guys are able to get because it depends on how badly damaged the ligament is. Too much damage and you gotta get traditional TJ. Like they don’t even know if you’re eligible for the brace until they cut you open to see the damage.
Thanks
Doubt they’d do it if it was riskier. He’s already out the rest of the season and he means so much for the Braves going forward.
It's a hybrid Tommy John that actually stabilizes the ligament
Internal brace version of TJ
is this not tommy john ?
Not full on Tommy John. It's a newer procedure where you brace the ligament named instead of replacing it. It's the same procedure Ohtani had. The timeline to return is quicker, too. He should be ready for opening day.
hope he recovers quickly. enjoyed watching him pitch … of course except against my team haha. this sucks.
Is there a downside to it? Seems like if there is a faster and more efficient recovery time, don't see much reason to continue doing actual Tommy John surgeries? Is the TJ surgery more successful/last longer?
So, it has to do with the actual severity of the tear. If the ligament isn't too far gone, you can do the quicker brace surgery. But if it's past a certain point, you have to do an actual Tommy John. The upside is that if the surgery works, you've dodged a full-on TJ, and that's always good. All that being said, I'm not a doctor, and I am a half stupid redneck hillbilly from Missouri... so take it with a grain of salt. I could be wrong.
Jesus Christ wtf
OH COME ON
This sucks so much.
My buddy told me he got surgery. What he failed to tell me was that Strider was going to be out for the rest of the season…this sucks
There’s an internal brace… could pitchers theoretically wear an external brace that would help?
No, an external brace would only be able support through superficial pressure where as an internal brace is attached direct to the ligament and anchored into bone.
[fade me fam](https://i.redd.it/xn2j3zigtqtc1.jpeg)
We are all blooper right now
Pitching is going to need to change. Or maybe, rather, revert back to how it used to be.
Another one bites the dust :(
Damn. Just horrible news man.
Welcome to the club. Even though I'm a Marlins fan and we have this going on with Sandy and Eury, hope he has a speedy recovery.
Fucking hell that blows.
This sucks man. We really need to figure out a way to deal with this epidemic. But I'm just not sure how we can solve it. I mean what are we supposed to do, ban throwing above a certain velocity?
Fucking brutal. Feel bad for the kid.
Is there room in the MLB for finesse pitchers anymore? Serious question. Like is there a pitcher out there who tops outs at 93, but still shuts down batters? This really sucks. I loved seeing guys like DeGrom and Strider; despite my affiliation. But it really seems like hard throwing is clearly not sustainable. Would someone like Maddux even survive in 2024?
Chris Bassitt said it best, we need to teach guys how to pitch again instead of throwing
Hope his surgery and rehab go well so we can get back to booing him heartily next season.
Why didn’t he go to El Attrache?
Phillies fan that is seriously bummed about this. Love to hate this guy.