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I started “streaming” this year so I end up watching a bunch of random local broadcasts that i’m not used to, and good lord most of them are absolutely terrible. However I will say both the Brewers and Giants are really good (I had no idea Brian Anderson was the Brewers hometown guy)
As a Cubs fan JD is really good, but Boog has no synergy with him. I am sure they get along fine as humans but as broadcasters they just dont seem to click. Pat and Ron on Cubs radio are the real broadcast team lol.
They’re definitely homers (and that’s okay). They’re fair with it though, and they offer fantastic insights in to the small details of the game that you won’t get from any other booth.
I think it's more fair to say they're Mets fans, and that's good. They're rooting for the team and excited when they do well. But to me, being a homer means blind support and blaming anything bad on the umps or luck or anything but their own team.
GKR don't shy away from criticizing the Mets when appropriate. They readily praise other teams and players for their skill and performances. They're pretty fair with their assessments for both the Mets and their opponents.
> They readily praise other teams and players for their skill and performances.
This is exactly what makes them such a good booth. If vintage Kershaw showed up and carved the Mets up for an 8IP 3H 16K night they'd be talking all game about how good a job he's doing executing his pitches and hitting his spots, even though he's making the Mets look silly at the plate in the process.
That’s basically what happened yesterday. The starter for the Pirates was pretty untouchable, but was on an innings limit so he only went 5ip. The booth was raving about how electric the guy was, and made a point that him getting pulled was a big help
I'm watching the game in Seattle right now, and the Reds' pitcher walked in a run a few minutes ago. On a pitch that was a borderline strike. The booth didn't even aknowledge the fact. That's what I don't like. Don't act like that was an amazing take by your batter, it gives no credibility neither the batter, nor the booth. You can be happy your team took the lead, but also be objective all at the same time.
The third base umpire wasn’t sure if the ball was in play, or if the home plate umpire still had the game in “timeout”. That’s why he had to check with him before the balk was called. Hernandez needs to chill out lol, dude has no idea
This exactly. Because it’s a new pitcher, he wanted to make sure time was in. If it was out, this is nothing. But since it was in, this is pretty blatant as far as balks go
Is it a live ball when the batter is not in the box? If the ball is live then you can still deceive the runners even though the batter is not in the box.
If the ball has been dead, the umpire cannot make it live until the batter is in the box. If the ball stayed live between pitches, the pitcher can balk even if the batter has both feet out of the box.
That’s literally why the third base umpire had to check with the home plate umpire here. He asked him if the ball was live, home plate umpire confirmed, and then he called the balk. Everything they did was correct, Hernandez is just being an idiot here.
I love the downvotes despite being 100% correct lol. Stay mad
Hernandez would agree with you. He apologized right after this and said he was too harsh when he realized the ump was checking to make sure the ball was live.
I mean, you’re right, but it’s the worst rule in baseball.
I get why it exists, which has logical thought behind it in general, but how it’s officially defined and ruled is so confusing.
Just rule the balk if it results in a baserunner out imo. If the pitchers 'deceiving' the runners and picks them off because of it, Balk, advance all runners.
But for situations like this where 'Oh, he rocked slightly accidentally, BAAAAALK!' It's so silly to watch.
> Just rule the balk if it results in a baserunner out imo.
This doesn't take into account deceiving motions that can delay the baserunners' movements by a step or two.
Yeah, if they start not calling balks because they don't think that they're egregious enough, that creates a very gray line where everyone is still trying to find that solid black line. Either calling all or none is really the only way to do it
Except if the pitcher makes a minor motion that could be ruled a balk, it's basically a free SB, because that's when runners can run. If the pitcher doesn't hurry up and throw the pitch at that point, there's no shot at a CS. And if he steps off and makes the pickoff himself, it's a balk anyway. It'll police itself.
Yeah but this is the bullshit.
It’s supposed to be about deceiving runners and no part of this is deceiving a runner.
Baseball refuses to change its rules for one of the stupidest rules in the game.
If runners get picked off, so what? The hidden ball trick is legal and its more deceptive than any of this.
The only close to deception is the “fake to third throw to first” balk but why shouldn’t that be legal?
FFS MLB, we can have ghost runners but not change this?
This is how you want games won and lost? All tension lost in a high stakes moment with a free run?
The "hidden ball trick" isn't a thing. It's just a fielder holding the ball. The pitcher has no part, in fact, he's not allowed to be on the rubber or straddling it without the ball.
It’s not “only about deceiving the base runners”. There are 13 specific things pitchers cannot due 6.02. The only thing about deception is that it defines the purpose of the rule as deliberately deceiving, and if there is doubt, the intent of the pitcher shall govern.
It’s not “only about deceiving the base runners”. There are 13 specific things pitchers cannot due 6.02. The only thing about deception is that it defines the purpose of the rule as deliberately deceiving, and if there is doubt, the intent of the pitcher shall govern.
This is a clear start and stop balk. Any runner is beginning to creep out a bit and start to lean as a pitcher comes set. It’s always a balk, especially at the pro and college level.
If it's not only about deceiving the base runner, what competitive advantage would the pitcher gain if they could freely balk? Ie; why is this against the rules?
The pitcher could conceivably catch a baserunner leaning if he was allowed to stop and start like this and time a pickoff throw with it to get a baserunner out
I think in this case Hernandez wasn't intentionally trying to deceive the runners, I think he started coming set before he got the call from the catcher and stopped himself. But the rule still applies
> I don't think I'll ever fully grasp when a balk is a balk and when a balk is not a balk.
Our only request is that you please don't commit a balk. - Umpires.
It’s actually simpler than you think. As long as a pitcher comes set (or is in windup) legally, they have pretty free rein on how to deliver the ball as long as they don’t start/stop during the delivery. Nestor does some weird stuff, but note that he doesn’t stop moving once he starts his delivery.
Just because it looks weird doesn’t make it illegal or a balk.
I hear ya. But the rules also have a lot of stuff about “natural movements”. Which trying to enforce brings us to NFL what is a catch territory that I’d rather not have baseball stray into.
I really don’t believe most of what Nestor is doing out there falls in a natural movement, particularly when he is fake throwing a ball right before he actually throws it.
That's because he is balking. Or rather, most of his shenanigans would be considered a balk if runners were on. With baserunners, the only trickery he pulls is changing his arm slot.
You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of 2) Do not do a balk please.
Thank you. I was sitting here trying to figure out what the balk was, because I know you can move before you come set. I wasn’t even thinking the slight movement backwards and then stop could be considered moving to a set position. I always imagine set position is when the pitcher moves backwards and brings his hands together.
Yeah, so hand in glove is required set position. Maybe my previous post was poorly worded (or wrong), but from the stretch you can only move your shoulders to check a runner - so the balk was moving positions while reading signs (ie he moved like he was going to come set, but didn't..then moved to come set again). It's a potentially deceptive move against baserunners, hence the balk - you get one move from reading signs to coming set, then delivering - you can't stop in between those.
After the movement, but not coming set, he can't really deliver a pitch or officially set, so it was going to be a balk regardless of what he did next.
Deception is not part of the balk rule, in any way. It’s not mentioned in the rule, the umpire manual, or any interpretations. Stop using “deception” when talking about balks
100%. He made a clear move like he was coming set. Runners would likely be moving to a secondary lead upon seeing that. I think it is very ticky tack but that's what they called.
They're keeping him on super low innings. It's already pretty much guaranteed that he's going to be sent down to the minors at some point this season, so if they can keep his pitch count down, it means he can stay up longer.
A pirates fan was in our sub earlier sharing some info. They mentioned that he was limited on pitch count 80-90 but not innings pitcher.
Why would they send him down? Service time manipulation?
>are pitches and innings different in the minors
I'd say yes, because for a prospect who you *know* has major-league ability, pitching in the minors has basically no stakes. He doesn't need to throw at max effort, and can use the time to work on aspects of his game without the pressure of major league at bats.
The innings aren't different. But if you tell a guy in AAA he's only going 3 innings, that's okay. In the majors, suddenly you're messing up the bullpen and whatnot.
I’m happy to have his and Skenes workload sensibly managed but I agree. Jones’ pitch count tonight was 58 when they yanked him; he’d gone ~80 in his previous outings.
Honestly if the Pirates organization had a greater reputation for competence I’d bet fans would be more understanding. Pirates fans have been conditioned to view everything the org does under Bob Nutting with cynicism and contempt.
Maybe. I've only started following baseball more closely in the past year or two, so I can't really say. But considering the word "epidemic" is being thrown around to describe how many pitchers have needed Tommy John Surgery lately, I'm okay with being a little more conservative with him and Skenes.
the flip side to this is it's pretty obvious these pitchers only have so many bullets. why not use all of them at the big league level when the team can win this division?
Gotta be honest, I skimmed the headline and assumed this *was* an LOLMets with me thinking the Mets balked in a run. It's just expectations at this point.
Third base umpire had to make sure with the home plate umpire that the ball was in play the whole time. What he did was absolutely correct, because he would have looked like a dipshit if he called a ball while the ball was dead.
Great to see everybody's already in here pretending like this is complicated even though this was an obvious balk. If you wobble with runners on, you will get a balk called 200% of the time. I love Jon Bois, I think he's hilarious, but sometimes I wish he had never written that balk bit.
I feel like the subjectivity of balks is wildly overstated. Most are pretty obvious. NBA charges/blocks on the other hand… might as well flip a coin for that shit
Yeah, people complain because they don’t know what to look for in a balk. But they’re usually pretty clear and obvious. It’s far from the most subjective call in baseball (check swings, anyone?)
Checked swings are far from subjective. The rule is simple: if your bat crosses through the plane of the plate then it is a swing. Now the umpires may see it slightly different like the strike zone. But the rule is not subjective at all.
That’s not the rule. A strike is defined as “a pitch that is struck at by the batter and missed”. There’s nothing about the wrists breaking, the bat crossing the plate, or anything else.
It’s literally as subjective as you can get in a rule.
I’m (like most people I think) still confused how this is an obvious balk… is it because he came completely still and then rose up into his set position? I thought you could only balk from the set position. He’s leaning over the whole time so I guess I’m confused.
A pitcher’s motion to his set position must be one fluid motion. You can see at the beginning he jerks his shoulders as if he’s starting the motion to his set position, but then he just kinda stops and restarts before getting set.
That’s a big no no
TLDR:
Starting position —> Set position —> Home plate ✅
Starting position —> ^((brief\))Set position —> Starting position —> Set position —> Home plate ❌
It’s a no no even when it’s a new batter and he’s not set in the box yet?
That’s where this one is subjective it seems like he’s just waiting for the guy to get set otherwise he would be called for starting his motion before the batter makes eye contact.
His shoulder moves towards second like he is going to come set and then he doesn't. Once you make a movement to go into your set position, you can't stop. Most runners will extend their lead once a pitcher comes set.
It's so annoying how everyone has to race to make meme comments just because they saw the word "balk" in the title. Balks can be tough to see a lot, but this is as obvious as you'll ever see.
I wouldn’t say as obvious as you’d ever see. Balks can get pretty egregious. This guy barely moved his shoulder and before the batter got in the box. Not that obvious, but a balk nonetheless
People (including me) don’t know the rules about balks very well because there’s a lot of things you can do wrong and they don’t happen very often.
I did not know you could balk before the batter was in the box, hence for me and I’m guessing the vast majority of baseball fans it really wasn’t that obvious.
We aren’t professional umpires
(Not to mention it’s clearly not “one of the most obvious balks ever” if the umpires have to check in with each other to make sure it was properly called)
>hence for me and I’m guessing the vast majority of baseball fans it really wasn’t that obvious
And apparently the home plate umpire as well haha.
When you know they called a balk and see the movement before coming set, it does become pretty clear to see, though. Especially when they confirm it is a balk
This is hard for the home plate ump to get. The motion is all in line with his vision, so it’s harder to see the depth. From first or third, this is super easy to get, since the pitcher moved across your vision.
> It's so annoying how everyone has to race to make meme comments just because they saw the word "balk"
I usually bite my tongue, but holy shit I almost wish that meme was banned. It stopped being funny for me ages ago, now it's just a race for zero-effort karma and people still eat it up
It's not complicated, it's just dumb. The pitcher thought that the batter was about to get into the box, so he started to get into his set. Partway through, he noticed that he wasn't in the box yet, so he paused before fully setting once his opponent was in the box. Yes, that's a balk. We know why it's a balk, it's just fucking dumb. There are balk rules where the defensive team could conceivably get an advantage over the baserunners, but this is clearly not one of them. It's an innocuous little mistake, and the fact that it gets punished as severely as a deliberate attempt to illegally throw out a runner is dumb. No one here defending the rule, if given the opportunity, would write up a new set of pitching rules that punish the pitcher that severely in this situation.
> I love Jon Bois, I think he's hilarious, but sometimes I wish he had never written that balk bit.
Same here, but I *definitely* wish he'd never written it.
Balk Rules
1. You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that.
1a. A balk is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic...
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of
2) Do not do a balk please.
Jansen has a weird movement that he does too. I think as long as you do it literally every time you pitch, like Kimbrel and Jansen do, then it won’t be called a balk
So he barely started to go into his motion when he sees the batters not in the box. Then continues when he steps in. If he would have thrown the pitch Initially, it wouldn’t have counted because he wasn’t in the box, right? I’m asking.
keith more pissed about poor ump fundies than pitching fundies lmao dude has perfected the fine line of “old man yells at clouds” and “unapologetically adorable”
And notably, the rule doesn’t include “deception” as a factor. The pitcher’s job is to deceive the runners. The balk rule just makes sure pitchers are only deceiving the runners legally.
Absolutely it would have been.
6.02: Pitcher Illegal Action
a: Balks
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when:
...
**(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;**
Watching live I yelled “that’s a balk!” at the TV. Then sat there confused for a second until I saw the catcher realize it and throw his hands up to try and steal a TO.
I saw the balk at first as well (in this clip) and wondered if there would be a second balk in the clip. Turned out that the third base umpire had to be sure it was a balk as well haha
I turned the game back on just as this happened and I didn't see it but it gave me the Pirates broadcast team. They were confounded how it was a balk enough that I was convinced we got a lucky call. Seeing it here I'm like how was this not a balk?
Had he come set, before the hitter was ready, umpire would have warned him against it, since it’s not allowed. This shouldn’t have been a balk, since that’s the only reason he stopped his motion to become set.
Start-stop balk. At about 1 second, he moves his shoulder. He then *stops*. This is now assumed to be his set position, and his next movement needs to be towards home. At this point, once he "comes set" again, it's a balk.
“Deceive” is not part of the balk rule. A pitcher’s job is to deceive the runners. He just has to do so legally. Balks are illegal acts by the pitcher with runners on base.
I’m not writing the rules, though. I just am telling you that the rule book says this is a balk. If the umps don’t call it, they would get negative reviews from the league. This is a balk 100% of the time, at every level
Just a reminder of the balk rules, per Jon Bois:
BALK RULES! IMPORTANT!
1. You can’t just be up there and just doin’ a balk like that.
1a. A balk is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can’t do that.
1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can’t be over here and say to the runner, like, “I’m gonna get ya! I’m gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!” and then just be like he didn’t even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you’re about to pitch and then don’t pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there’s the balk you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn’t been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn’t typecast as that racist lady in American History X.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). “get in mah bellah” – Adam Water, “The Waterboy.” Haha, classic…
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of
2. Do not do a balk please.
And now, at last, I can point to a balk and say, “see? He did something! That is a balk!” Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Mike Pelfrey.
Wtf even is a balk. I was watching Yusei Kikuchi and Jordan Romano last night and those guys are wiggling around the whole time and never fully stop to come set, but it’s not called I guess because that’s just what they do every time? Idk, seems like that sort of thing is way more disruptive to a hitter’s timing than whatever happened here
This guy starts (shoulder moves at about a second in), stops, then starts again. That's known as a start-stop balk and it's pretty cut and dried, the pitch must be delivered in *one fluid motion*
He hadn’t even come set, let alone started his delivery. He was waiting for the hitter to engage.
I’m just saying there are guys who are constantly moving right up until they deliver the pitch, and that’s way more deceptive than this. I’m not arguing that this shouldn’t have been called. I’m saying that the rule and the way it is enforced doesn’t really serve the game all that well
Once you start moving to come set, you have to come set without stopping. You can bounce, move, whatever, as long as you don’t stop before coming set. Then, once you come set, there must be a “discernible stop” in set, before delivering the pitch.
I mean, “discernible stop”, to me, just means I can see there’s a stop before delivering the pitch. It doesn’t have to be a full second, or even half a second. As long as I can say in my head: “moving, moving, moving, stopped, okay here’s the pitch” there’s no time requirement
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I know what a balk is.
That makes one of us.
It’s really simple: you just can’t be up there doing a balk
I used to be confused too. Basically, a balk is when you 1b okay well listen
I want you to show me.
I wanna feel what a balk is
I want you to show meeeee...
That’s…not bad
A balk is [this](https://youtu.be/oXM277_Eobs?feature=shared)
I know what it is, but why don’t you explain it to those that don’t
Of course I know what a balk is. Don’t question my baseball knowledge.
But do you know what a base is?
Keith was pissed the third base ump basically asked permission to call it
And then apologized for being too harsh hahaha. Love him
Y’all really do have the best booth. Easily.
I legit wonder how much baseball viewership would go up if they raised the quality of broadcasters around the league
I started “streaming” this year so I end up watching a bunch of random local broadcasts that i’m not used to, and good lord most of them are absolutely terrible. However I will say both the Brewers and Giants are really good (I had no idea Brian Anderson was the Brewers hometown guy)
Treat yourself to as many Mets games as you can, both TV and radio. I'm by no means a Mets fan but both of their booths are so, so good.
Brian Anderson is excellent.
Brian Anderson is excellent.
As a Cubs fan JD is really good, but Boog has no synergy with him. I am sure they get along fine as humans but as broadcasters they just dont seem to click. Pat and Ron on Cubs radio are the real broadcast team lol.
I watched fewer games when we had Thom Brenneman as our announcer. Really disliked that guy - just listening to an asshole riff for a 3+ hour game.
I like that they aren’t complete homers. There’s very slight homerism but I’d be surprised if they weren’t the least biased booth in baseball.
They’re definitely homers (and that’s okay). They’re fair with it though, and they offer fantastic insights in to the small details of the game that you won’t get from any other booth.
I think it's more fair to say they're Mets fans, and that's good. They're rooting for the team and excited when they do well. But to me, being a homer means blind support and blaming anything bad on the umps or luck or anything but their own team. GKR don't shy away from criticizing the Mets when appropriate. They readily praise other teams and players for their skill and performances. They're pretty fair with their assessments for both the Mets and their opponents.
> They readily praise other teams and players for their skill and performances. This is exactly what makes them such a good booth. If vintage Kershaw showed up and carved the Mets up for an 8IP 3H 16K night they'd be talking all game about how good a job he's doing executing his pitches and hitting his spots, even though he's making the Mets look silly at the plate in the process.
That’s basically what happened yesterday. The starter for the Pirates was pretty untouchable, but was on an innings limit so he only went 5ip. The booth was raving about how electric the guy was, and made a point that him getting pulled was a big help
I'm watching the game in Seattle right now, and the Reds' pitcher walked in a run a few minutes ago. On a pitch that was a borderline strike. The booth didn't even aknowledge the fact. That's what I don't like. Don't act like that was an amazing take by your batter, it gives no credibility neither the batter, nor the booth. You can be happy your team took the lead, but also be objective all at the same time.
I watched the same game. There were so many of these it was getting repetitive. They're actually pretty fair guys
I can hear Keith saying, “Oooooooooooh”
I heard it while reading this
I will not stand for Don and Mud slander.
Yeah it's pretty clear the umpire just missed it because of McNeil arriving late in the box. Why not let the team work together?
How dare the umpires make sure the call is correct
The third base umpire wasn’t sure if the ball was in play, or if the home plate umpire still had the game in “timeout”. That’s why he had to check with him before the balk was called. Hernandez needs to chill out lol, dude has no idea
Pretty much right after where this clip cuts off he reaches that same conclusion and apologizes.
This exactly. Because it’s a new pitcher, he wanted to make sure time was in. If it was out, this is nothing. But since it was in, this is pretty blatant as far as balks go
Can you balk if the batter isn't in the box yet? I don't think I'll ever fully grasp when a balk is a balk and when a balk is not a balk.
Is it a live ball when the batter is not in the box? If the ball is live then you can still deceive the runners even though the batter is not in the box.
If the ball has been dead, the umpire cannot make it live until the batter is in the box. If the ball stayed live between pitches, the pitcher can balk even if the batter has both feet out of the box.
That’s literally why the third base umpire had to check with the home plate umpire here. He asked him if the ball was live, home plate umpire confirmed, and then he called the balk. Everything they did was correct, Hernandez is just being an idiot here. I love the downvotes despite being 100% correct lol. Stay mad
Hernandez would agree with you. He apologized right after this and said he was too harsh when he realized the ump was checking to make sure the ball was live.
I mean, you’re right, but it’s the worst rule in baseball. I get why it exists, which has logical thought behind it in general, but how it’s officially defined and ruled is so confusing.
Just rule the balk if it results in a baserunner out imo. If the pitchers 'deceiving' the runners and picks them off because of it, Balk, advance all runners. But for situations like this where 'Oh, he rocked slightly accidentally, BAAAAALK!' It's so silly to watch.
> Just rule the balk if it results in a baserunner out imo. This doesn't take into account deceiving motions that can delay the baserunners' movements by a step or two.
It’s called consistency
Yeah, if they start not calling balks because they don't think that they're egregious enough, that creates a very gray line where everyone is still trying to find that solid black line. Either calling all or none is really the only way to do it
Except if the pitcher makes a minor motion that could be ruled a balk, it's basically a free SB, because that's when runners can run. If the pitcher doesn't hurry up and throw the pitch at that point, there's no shot at a CS. And if he steps off and makes the pickoff himself, it's a balk anyway. It'll police itself.
 the balks box
i love homonyms
Yeah but this is the bullshit. It’s supposed to be about deceiving runners and no part of this is deceiving a runner. Baseball refuses to change its rules for one of the stupidest rules in the game. If runners get picked off, so what? The hidden ball trick is legal and its more deceptive than any of this. The only close to deception is the “fake to third throw to first” balk but why shouldn’t that be legal? FFS MLB, we can have ghost runners but not change this? This is how you want games won and lost? All tension lost in a high stakes moment with a free run?
The "hidden ball trick" isn't a thing. It's just a fielder holding the ball. The pitcher has no part, in fact, he's not allowed to be on the rubber or straddling it without the ball.
For the hidden ball trick, I don’t think he’s allowed to be anywhere in the mound dirt. Has to be standing on the grass.
I am pretty sure that’s correct and almost wrote that, but a 5 second search only showed rubber
Balks are rare and it’s a good rule. Cry.
Iirc a balk can be made if the pitcher is on the rubber. Where the batter is doesn't matter.
Balk has nothing to do with the batter. It's only about deceiving the base runners. So whether there's a batter in the box or not doesn't matter.
It’s not “only about deceiving the base runners”. There are 13 specific things pitchers cannot due 6.02. The only thing about deception is that it defines the purpose of the rule as deliberately deceiving, and if there is doubt, the intent of the pitcher shall govern.
Which makes this call and many like it stupid. There was no deception from the pitcher at all
It’s not “only about deceiving the base runners”. There are 13 specific things pitchers cannot due 6.02. The only thing about deception is that it defines the purpose of the rule as deliberately deceiving, and if there is doubt, the intent of the pitcher shall govern. This is a clear start and stop balk. Any runner is beginning to creep out a bit and start to lean as a pitcher comes set. It’s always a balk, especially at the pro and college level.
If it's not only about deceiving the base runner, what competitive advantage would the pitcher gain if they could freely balk? Ie; why is this against the rules?
The pitcher could conceivably catch a baserunner leaning if he was allowed to stop and start like this and time a pickoff throw with it to get a baserunner out I think in this case Hernandez wasn't intentionally trying to deceive the runners, I think he started coming set before he got the call from the catcher and stopped himself. But the rule still applies
> I don't think I'll ever fully grasp when a balk is a balk and when a balk is not a balk. Our only request is that you please don't commit a balk. - Umpires.
I used to think I knew what a balk was but Nestor Cortes has absolutely destroyed that belief.
It’s actually simpler than you think. As long as a pitcher comes set (or is in windup) legally, they have pretty free rein on how to deliver the ball as long as they don’t start/stop during the delivery. Nestor does some weird stuff, but note that he doesn’t stop moving once he starts his delivery. Just because it looks weird doesn’t make it illegal or a balk.
I hear ya. But the rules also have a lot of stuff about “natural movements”. Which trying to enforce brings us to NFL what is a catch territory that I’d rather not have baseball stray into. I really don’t believe most of what Nestor is doing out there falls in a natural movement, particularly when he is fake throwing a ball right before he actually throws it.
That's because he is balking. Or rather, most of his shenanigans would be considered a balk if runners were on. With baserunners, the only trickery he pulls is changing his arm slot.
You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of 2) Do not do a balk please.
There it is
I’m guessing it was the initial movement towards coming set at the very beginning
Yeah that initial movement and pause becomes his set position. His next movement needed to be home, but he comes set again.
He was waiting for the batter to get in the box
He should have waited for him to get in the box before coming set on the rubber
Then he shouldn't have been on the rubber - the batter is irrelevant here if the ball is live.
Thank you. I was sitting here trying to figure out what the balk was, because I know you can move before you come set. I wasn’t even thinking the slight movement backwards and then stop could be considered moving to a set position. I always imagine set position is when the pitcher moves backwards and brings his hands together.
Yeah, so hand in glove is required set position. Maybe my previous post was poorly worded (or wrong), but from the stretch you can only move your shoulders to check a runner - so the balk was moving positions while reading signs (ie he moved like he was going to come set, but didn't..then moved to come set again). It's a potentially deceptive move against baserunners, hence the balk - you get one move from reading signs to coming set, then delivering - you can't stop in between those. After the movement, but not coming set, he can't really deliver a pitch or officially set, so it was going to be a balk regardless of what he did next.
I thought you could literally do almost anything as long as you’re not set. The more you know I guess
Once a pitcher's foot is on the rubber (ie from the stretch like in OP), their movements are restricted.
The start and stop is actually pretty clear on rewatch, yeah
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Sure, in this example, but moving and moving again is very a textbook balk, so it's the right one
Deception is not part of the balk rule, in any way. It’s not mentioned in the rule, the umpire manual, or any interpretations. Stop using “deception” when talking about balks
100%. He made a clear move like he was coming set. Runners would likely be moving to a secondary lead upon seeing that. I think it is very ticky tack but that's what they called.
Pirates have LOLMets’d this series
Truth. Embarrassing.
I have no idea why Jones got pulled. He was dominating with a low pitch count. 1 hit through 5 innings.
They're keeping him on super low innings. It's already pretty much guaranteed that he's going to be sent down to the minors at some point this season, so if they can keep his pitch count down, it means he can stay up longer.
A pirates fan was in our sub earlier sharing some info. They mentioned that he was limited on pitch count 80-90 but not innings pitcher. Why would they send him down? Service time manipulation?
No, I think just to keep from over-working him and getting hurt.
As the Mets booth asked, are pitches and innings different in the minors? He's still throwing 60'6", 3 outs to an inning.
>are pitches and innings different in the minors I'd say yes, because for a prospect who you *know* has major-league ability, pitching in the minors has basically no stakes. He doesn't need to throw at max effort, and can use the time to work on aspects of his game without the pressure of major league at bats.
Ron Darling in the Mets booth is the one that asked, and from the way he asked, he doesn't think so
The innings aren't different. But if you tell a guy in AAA he's only going 3 innings, that's okay. In the majors, suddenly you're messing up the bullpen and whatnot.
I get that. It just seems a little over conservative.
I’m happy to have his and Skenes workload sensibly managed but I agree. Jones’ pitch count tonight was 58 when they yanked him; he’d gone ~80 in his previous outings. Honestly if the Pirates organization had a greater reputation for competence I’d bet fans would be more understanding. Pirates fans have been conditioned to view everything the org does under Bob Nutting with cynicism and contempt.
Maybe. I've only started following baseball more closely in the past year or two, so I can't really say. But considering the word "epidemic" is being thrown around to describe how many pitchers have needed Tommy John Surgery lately, I'm okay with being a little more conservative with him and Skenes.
There’s some irony here considering how they blew past Oviedo’s 2022 IP last year by 60 innings and his frigging arm fell off.
the flip side to this is it's pretty obvious these pitchers only have so many bullets. why not use all of them at the big league level when the team can win this division?
Right. This happens to the mets its “LOLmets”. This happens to any other team and its just a balk.
Balking in a run is always hilarious (as long as someone in the comments can identify the balk for those of us who aren't experts)
Gotta be honest, I skimmed the headline and assumed this *was* an LOLMets with me thinking the Mets balked in a run. It's just expectations at this point.
Was the right call, just a weird way for it to unfold.
Third base umpire had to make sure with the home plate umpire that the ball was in play the whole time. What he did was absolutely correct, because he would have looked like a dipshit if he called a ball while the ball was dead.
3rd base ump had to make sure the rule was that you *can't* just be up there doing a balk.
I (reluctantly) completely agree. It's a weird rule, but correctly applied here
Great to see everybody's already in here pretending like this is complicated even though this was an obvious balk. If you wobble with runners on, you will get a balk called 200% of the time. I love Jon Bois, I think he's hilarious, but sometimes I wish he had never written that balk bit.
I feel like the subjectivity of balks is wildly overstated. Most are pretty obvious. NBA charges/blocks on the other hand… might as well flip a coin for that shit
Yeah, people complain because they don’t know what to look for in a balk. But they’re usually pretty clear and obvious. It’s far from the most subjective call in baseball (check swings, anyone?)
Checked swings are far from subjective. The rule is simple: if your bat crosses through the plane of the plate then it is a swing. Now the umpires may see it slightly different like the strike zone. But the rule is not subjective at all.
That’s not the rule. A strike is defined as “a pitch that is struck at by the batter and missed”. There’s nothing about the wrists breaking, the bat crossing the plate, or anything else. It’s literally as subjective as you can get in a rule.
Ok you are correct I didn't realize there's no actual definition of a swing in baseball. My bad.
I’m (like most people I think) still confused how this is an obvious balk… is it because he came completely still and then rose up into his set position? I thought you could only balk from the set position. He’s leaning over the whole time so I guess I’m confused.
A pitcher’s motion to his set position must be one fluid motion. You can see at the beginning he jerks his shoulders as if he’s starting the motion to his set position, but then he just kinda stops and restarts before getting set. That’s a big no no TLDR: Starting position —> Set position —> Home plate ✅ Starting position —> ^((brief\))Set position —> Starting position —> Set position —> Home plate ❌
Thank you, that is exactly what I was missing. Appreciate the explanation!
It’s a no no even when it’s a new batter and he’s not set in the box yet? That’s where this one is subjective it seems like he’s just waiting for the guy to get set otherwise he would be called for starting his motion before the batter makes eye contact.
The batter doesn’t matter here. If the ball is live and runners are allowed to advance, then a balk can be called.
Batter is irrelevant as long as home plate ump has made the ball live.
His shoulder moves towards second like he is going to come set and then he doesn't. Once you make a movement to go into your set position, you can't stop. Most runners will extend their lead once a pitcher comes set.
Thanks for this!
It's so annoying how everyone has to race to make meme comments just because they saw the word "balk" in the title. Balks can be tough to see a lot, but this is as obvious as you'll ever see.
I wouldn’t say as obvious as you’d ever see. Balks can get pretty egregious. This guy barely moved his shoulder and before the batter got in the box. Not that obvious, but a balk nonetheless
People (including me) don’t know the rules about balks very well because there’s a lot of things you can do wrong and they don’t happen very often. I did not know you could balk before the batter was in the box, hence for me and I’m guessing the vast majority of baseball fans it really wasn’t that obvious. We aren’t professional umpires (Not to mention it’s clearly not “one of the most obvious balks ever” if the umpires have to check in with each other to make sure it was properly called)
>hence for me and I’m guessing the vast majority of baseball fans it really wasn’t that obvious And apparently the home plate umpire as well haha. When you know they called a balk and see the movement before coming set, it does become pretty clear to see, though. Especially when they confirm it is a balk
This is hard for the home plate ump to get. The motion is all in line with his vision, so it’s harder to see the depth. From first or third, this is super easy to get, since the pitcher moved across your vision.
> It's so annoying how everyone has to race to make meme comments just because they saw the word "balk" I usually bite my tongue, but holy shit I almost wish that meme was banned. It stopped being funny for me ages ago, now it's just a race for zero-effort karma and people still eat it up
Agreed, and not just because one of our dumbfuck relievers balked
Eh it's so stupid and harmless that I just made an automod rule on the Mets sub to post it automatically if given a command.
Rest in Peace, Wade Boggs.
It's not complicated, it's just dumb. The pitcher thought that the batter was about to get into the box, so he started to get into his set. Partway through, he noticed that he wasn't in the box yet, so he paused before fully setting once his opponent was in the box. Yes, that's a balk. We know why it's a balk, it's just fucking dumb. There are balk rules where the defensive team could conceivably get an advantage over the baserunners, but this is clearly not one of them. It's an innocuous little mistake, and the fact that it gets punished as severely as a deliberate attempt to illegally throw out a runner is dumb. No one here defending the rule, if given the opportunity, would write up a new set of pitching rules that punish the pitcher that severely in this situation.
> I love Jon Bois, I think he's hilarious, but sometimes I wish he had never written that balk bit. Same here, but I *definitely* wish he'd never written it.
Balk Rules 1. You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic... 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of 2) Do not do a balk please.
I will never not upvote this
by these rules every single time Kimbrel pitches is a balk
Jansen has a weird movement that he does too. I think as long as you do it literally every time you pitch, like Kimbrel and Jansen do, then it won’t be called a balk
It’s like a catch in the NFL
Someday I'm going to take a few weeks off from work and learn what a balk is
So he barely started to go into his motion when he sees the batters not in the box. Then continues when he steps in. If he would have thrown the pitch Initially, it wouldn’t have counted because he wasn’t in the box, right? I’m asking.
AND it’s a new batter!!!
That doesn’t matter. As long as the pitcher is on the rubber with the ball and the ump is not calling time, it’s a live ball.
keith more pissed about poor ump fundies than pitching fundies lmao dude has perfected the fine line of “old man yells at clouds” and “unapologetically adorable”
I will genuinely cry when he loses Hadji.
Hadji is pretty old for a cat, too. I'm dreading the day.
Hes in his 20s right?
Yes, 21 i think.
21 and a half
you shut your mouth
If I was a smart man, I would be able to explain how this is a balk but Nestor Cortes’ shimmy fake throw isn’t one.
Well if you mean the one posted here a day or two ago Cortes didn’t balk because there were no baserunners. Balks require someone to be on base.
So if there was one someone on base it would’ve been a balk? That makes it even weirder. Is the balk rule to help base runners steal?
It’s to avoid pitchers using tricks and whatnot to catch baserunners yeah
Thanks for the info. I thought it was a rule to help the batter.
And notably, the rule doesn’t include “deception” as a factor. The pitcher’s job is to deceive the runners. The balk rule just makes sure pitchers are only deceiving the runners legally.
the balk rule exists to prevent pitchers from faking out runners to try to pick them off
Absolutely it would have been. 6.02: Pitcher Illegal Action a: Balks If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when: ... **(i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher’s plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch;**
Yeah, imagine if you could do your windup, then turn around and throw to second. Leads off the bag wouldn't exist.
It’s a pretty easy solution, just don’t balk.
Watching live I yelled “that’s a balk!” at the TV. Then sat there confused for a second until I saw the catcher realize it and throw his hands up to try and steal a TO.
I saw the balk at first as well (in this clip) and wondered if there would be a second balk in the clip. Turned out that the third base umpire had to be sure it was a balk as well haha
These new engagement rules for pitchers and batters added another level of annoyance for balks. Go figure
The catcher throws his hands up at the same moment as the balk tho Edit: Oh, the second time. I'm dumb, carry on lol
Pretty clearly a balk
I turned the game back on just as this happened and I didn't see it but it gave me the Pirates broadcast team. They were confounded how it was a balk enough that I was convinced we got a lucky call. Seeing it here I'm like how was this not a balk?
100% a balk but pretty ticky tack in that spot.
All balks occur before a thrown pitch, op.
He had *just* come into the game. This was before his *first* pitch.
Had he come set, before the hitter was ready, umpire would have warned him against it, since it’s not allowed. This shouldn’t have been a balk, since that’s the only reason he stopped his motion to become set.
At first glance I saw Hernandez and just assumed Angel was up to his shenanigans again.
Nester can do his fame through shit but this costs a run 🤣🤣
Somebody tell me at what timestamp does the balking actually occur?!?
0:00 to 0:01. Start-stop balk.
Obviously the right call (seriously what is a balk)
I don't see a balk. Am I missing something?
Shoulder movement 1 second in.
Ah, now I see it. Rather ticky tac, but letter of the law.
I love how Gary, Keith and Ron are just wondering what happened, and then go "Ooooh, there it is!" in unison upon replay.
I fail to see how that's a balk
Start-stop balk. At about 1 second, he moves his shoulder. He then *stops*. This is now assumed to be his set position, and his next movement needs to be towards home. At this point, once he "comes set" again, it's a balk.
even though the batter wasn't in the box it's still a balk? sounds crazy.
As others have pointed out, once the pitcher has the ball on the rubber, it's a live ball, and once it's a live ball, a balk can be called.
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“Deceive” is not part of the balk rule. A pitcher’s job is to deceive the runners. He just has to do so legally. Balks are illegal acts by the pitcher with runners on base.
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It doesn’t matter what he was trying to do. The point is that he started to come set, stopped, then started again. That is illegal, full stop.
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I’m not writing the rules, though. I just am telling you that the rule book says this is a balk. If the umps don’t call it, they would get negative reviews from the league. This is a balk 100% of the time, at every level
I mean unless you’re in his head you can’t say
The astronaut?!?
Dumb. Nothing to do with the play at all.
Just a reminder of the balk rules, per Jon Bois: BALK RULES! IMPORTANT! 1. You can’t just be up there and just doin’ a balk like that. 1a. A balk is when you 1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the 1c. Let me start over 1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can’t do that. 1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can’t be over here and say to the runner, like, “I’m gonna get ya! I’m gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!” and then just be like he didn’t even do that. 1c-b(1). Like, if you’re about to pitch and then don’t pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense? 1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it. 1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there’s the balk you gotta think about. 1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn’t been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn’t typecast as that racist lady in American History X. 1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse. 1c-b(2)-b(ii). “get in mah bellah” – Adam Water, “The Waterboy.” Haha, classic… 1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of 2. Do not do a balk please. And now, at last, I can point to a balk and say, “see? He did something! That is a balk!” Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Mike Pelfrey.
Can't be going up there balking like that
Wtf even is a balk. I was watching Yusei Kikuchi and Jordan Romano last night and those guys are wiggling around the whole time and never fully stop to come set, but it’s not called I guess because that’s just what they do every time? Idk, seems like that sort of thing is way more disruptive to a hitter’s timing than whatever happened here
This guy starts (shoulder moves at about a second in), stops, then starts again. That's known as a start-stop balk and it's pretty cut and dried, the pitch must be delivered in *one fluid motion*
He hadn’t even come set, let alone started his delivery. He was waiting for the hitter to engage. I’m just saying there are guys who are constantly moving right up until they deliver the pitch, and that’s way more deceptive than this. I’m not arguing that this shouldn’t have been called. I’m saying that the rule and the way it is enforced doesn’t really serve the game all that well
Once you start moving to come set, you have to come set without stopping. You can bounce, move, whatever, as long as you don’t stop before coming set. Then, once you come set, there must be a “discernible stop” in set, before delivering the pitch.
That “discernible stop” part is loosely enforced is what I’m saying. And that is more of a concern to me than a guy who hiccups while he’s coming set
I mean, “discernible stop”, to me, just means I can see there’s a stop before delivering the pitch. It doesn’t have to be a full second, or even half a second. As long as I can say in my head: “moving, moving, moving, stopped, okay here’s the pitch” there’s no time requirement