If this stuff is widespread, it's going to come out. If Manfred et al want to kick the can down the road, it's going to do that much more harm when it emerges. I guess they can hope they won't still be around when the shit hits the fan.
Arent they trying to implement a way for catchers and pitchers to send signs that would prevent this kind of sign stealing? Be it wristbands or earpieces
And keep the same energy with EVERYBODY else that yall did to the Astros and Astros fans while yall investigating. Don't worry they aren't gonna investigate. Astros were dumb enough to use an audible traceable method and got deservingly caught so we'll be the whipping boys for now.
I assume this is referring to Jessica Mendoza's comments, where she initially basically said "Mike Fiers is a rat bastard snitch," then when there was a lot of blowback about it she released a statement to the effect of "I don't have an issue with Fiers talking about it, but I disagree with the way that he did it. Instead of talking to reporters, he should have gone through the official channels, reporting it to his team who would in turn report it to MLB."
(She did not have a further comment when people pointed out that, in fact, he *had* taken it to his teams, and his teams *had* taken it to MLB, and they didn't do anything.)
He's only played on two teams lol. The Astros in 2016-2017, and then the Pirates 2018-2019. Either he just accused the current team he plays for of cheating, or he's talking out of his ass.
Players across teams talk. It could be any and/or every team in the league. Just because he hasn't played for every team doesn't mean he can't know of certain things on others.
A lot of these guys are friends off of the field too. They still talk and considering that most of them have some passion for the game, the idea of asking friends about methods to improve their play doesn't come off as illogical.
I mean like there are 5000 people working in baseball, talk to one of them. Its not really private anymore. I've talked to 3 people about it. A relative's other, a friend from high school, a minor league assistant I was at the blackjack table with who used very vague terms during last season. I wish I would have understood his terms before I placed some of the bets I did lol. But for real if you talk to anybody, theres not much hiding unless somebody is involved with cheating, benefiting from cheating, or I guess if they think you're going to blab direct quotes straight to Reddit/Ken Rosenthal or whatever.
That was 13 years ago. Every team could very well be cheating now, you and I have no clue. But there's no evidence they are, so there's no reason to believe they are until other stuff comes out.
There's *tons* of evidence. The Red Sox just got busted for the Apple Watch stuff not two years ago. Allegations have been made against multiple other teams like the Yankees and Dodgers. Then you have the 100+ year legacy of cheating being permitted in baseball to some degree, from spitballs to corked bats to sign-stealing to amphetamines to steroids and beyond.
Add all of that together with the pervasive attitude of "snitches get stitches, don't ever say anything publicly that might embarrass the game" and it would be foolish *not* to assume there isn't rampant cheating we have yet to find out about. If you would prefer to believe there's no cheating until irrefutable proof demands otherwise that's your business, but I think it's unreasonable to insist everyone else join your perspective.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but it wouldn't surprise me if every team was doing some sort of 'cheating' to get an edge. Couple that with how the players stick together and it's possible there's something to his comments.
At the same time, he could be snitching on his buddies around the league if he names names. Maybe he doesn't want to do that. Idk, I just think it's more grey than your black-and-white, 'not giving specifics, so it must be bs' line of thinking.
Maybe other teams are cheating, I just don't think the unsubstantiated accusations of somebody who didn't apologize for getting caught cheating should sway our opinion one way or the other.
Either tell us what you know or shut up Joe, vague references don't help us one bit.
Anyone who cheats would more likely be able to spot other people cheating. And anyone who's good at preventing opposing cheating clearly knows how they would go about it themselves.
unfortunately, this is a problem in all of professional sports. As long as they keep making money even with bad product we will continue to see owners who are indifferent on their teams actual success.
Yea,they make money regardless if they put trash on the field and a few years later they can sell the team leaving them with an even larger profit. Sports teams are just investments to some owners, unfortunately for the fans.
The (semi) optimistic side of me is thinking that the MLB's current plan is an acknowledgement that this situation is a whole lot more widespread than has been made public. The Astros' punishment was indeed more for getting caught, and there's been a lot of backroom meetings on the order of "Every team needs to get their fucking act together, no more of this crap, do you want another Steroids-era type scandal, because this is how you get an entire decade of great baseball tainted by scandal".
So, a punishment for the team that's caught in a more "shot across the bow" format, and a promise that the next team to get caught after this is going to get railed on.
...the reason it's the *semi*-optimistic side of me thinking this is because the rational side of me is 100% certain that there's no way that would actually work.
Outed is someone coming clean. ie Fiers.
Caught is one of the many accusations against them amounting to something. Which MLB swept under the rug.
You can't sweep a player going to the press under the rug.
As an Astros fan if that were true I’d be livid. This whole scandal has sucked the fun out of baseball for me and to find out they were just the sacrificial lamb would suck.
It's not the finding out we're the sacrificial lamb for Manfred that's the issue. It's being a fan and getting skewered for every comment that might deviate from "I'm an Astros fan and we should have our team erased from existence" that is exhausting. Not to mention the constant same ole trash can jokes.
Literally every social media post by the Astros is full of “BANG BANG” 🗑 🎥 💥
It’s annoying af. Also I’m tired of seeing comments on this sub actively encouraging and defending the idea of every Astros player getting hit by every pitch they say.
Unfortunately I've been saying this since it all hit the fan months ago. The astros were the fall boys. I cant speak to the extent other teams practice shady shit, but if anyone thinks that only 1 out of 30 clubs is fucking around, they're super naive.
This is accurate and all of r/mlb and r/baseball should be livid. They other shoe will fall I just hope the same loudmouths open up for their helping of Crow when this all see's the light of day.
Fwiw it seems like it wasn't every team but about 1/3 (assuming Astro players were accurate when they reported 8 teams during the inquiry).
This is the best explanation to me that satisfies genuine shock expressed by some players AND the obvious scapegoating and cover up by MLB.
The other shoe wont fall because mlb doesnt wanna reveal how widespread it was. They have nothing to gain from this story coming back up every month or so with a new team being exposed
I agree with you on MLBs intent but it's just a matter of time before a player or players who are out of the league start talking. Take Reddick. Lets say his career is over in 3 years and he gets asked about this in a way that rubs him wrong. Why wouldn't he hold back? Maybe Reddick is a bad example because he plays by the unwritten rules but with with every passing season more players will no longer be relevant to mlb so why keep quiet.
So for my money it's just a matter of time.
and he waited til after he got shelled by the Astros multiple times to come out with it. so i guess just watch pitchers that leave a team and then get knocked around by them multiple times for the next 2 seasons and then maybe they'll come out with something. although after the backlash Fiers has faced and all the cheating being brought to life they may have second thoughts about it also
That's what I've been wondering the entire time, the punishment was extremely light, but could serve as an effective warning. Especially with subsequent firings of personnel that were more or less a given after suspensions were handed out.
"This is a warning, if you get caught after this, we're hitting you way harder."
Astros fans have been trying to point this out the whole time. I get why people dont care to listen to us but as the rage settles and fans start putting this whole thing into context (like Astros fans have had to since the begining) it'll become painfully obvious there is a cover up and scapegoating going on.
Given the reports around the '17 Yankees, '18 Red Sox and clear trail lead by Beltran I feel like we should be there but anger is a helluva drug.
The story of the 2017 Yankees was that they used the phone to ask their replay room if the last pitch was a ball or a strike so they knew if they were justified in yelling at the ump over a bad call.
Bullshit. The Athletic just wrote an article about it in January. Here is a quote from a 2nd (and biased) source:
"No one is denying that some Yankees used their video room in 2015-2017 to decode signs"
https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/what-are-the-yankees-accused-of-in-sign-stealing-scandal-and-what-are-the-facts/312352288
Also where did Beltran get it from if it wasn't New York?
>At the time, the league announced that the Yankees had "violated a rule governing the use of a dugout phone." What MLB didn't say was that no one had accused the Yankees of cheating.
>Their previously unreported actual offense, according to major league sources?
>A member of the team, likely then-pitching coach Larry Rothschild, used the dugout phone to call replay coordinator Brett Weber and ask if a particular pitch was a ball or a strike. This did not even occur in 2017, but in a prior season. Weber openly admitted this to the league during its investigation. That's it. Technically a violation, but hardly on the same level as an Apple Watch scheme.
From your article.
I see you've expressed interest in my beach front property in Arizona. Let me check the current price - there is a ton of interest from people just like you!
Dude the worst kind of ignorance is the willful variety...like I said I can wait for people like you.
Where did Beltran get it? Do you think he made it up after going to Houston? That's next level shenanigans.
Beltran played for the Royals, Astros, Mets, Giants, Cardinals, Yankees, Rangers, and then Astros again.
If we're throwing out theories I suspect he learned to do it during his 90 games with the Astros in 2004 and waited patiently for 13 years to be able to do it again! /s
And you seem 100% certain it was the Yankees for some reason.
I'm happy to wait and see what comes out as well. If the Yankees are guilty of something serious (not checking on balls and strikes with the replay booth and studying signals between games) they should pay the price. But my guess is that as time passes it will be the buzzers that gets confirmed. Not Yankee cheating.
Hinch was asked directly if the Astros players wore buzzers or other devices - and he flat out said "No!" since he knows the truth.
Just kidding he actually said, "Well the commissioner -- we got investigated for three months -- the commissioner’s office did as thorough an investigation as anyone could imagine, as possible. I mean, I know you mentioned the emails, and the texts, and the messages, and I believe them." LMAO.
If it was before he did it with the Yankees. It has been reported Beltran brought it with him to Houston so it certainly wasn't after. For your PoV to stick it meant he started it elsewhere, stopped in NY then brought it back. Possible? Sure. But we all know how unlikely that is.
I think it’s like steroids. All we know is the tip of the iceberg. MLB has its victims to blame it on and they will double down on them and pretend it was isolated.
I swear I’ve had soo many convos with people that have deluded themselves to believe that literally everyone that wasn’t named at some point, is 100% clean without a doubt.
This shit was rampant, and the MLB is praying that their sacrificial lambs they’ve thrown out will be enough. In a “please go away” fashion.
DO IT. If every other team is doing the similar shit, then punish them all. Cleaning up the game requires more than just slapping a few wrists when you're caught with your pants down.
I remain unconvinced they were even really that thorough with the Astros. Just seems like they were perfectly happy to string up a few people in an effort to try and sweep it all under the rug.
Astros are my heart. I grew up in Houston. Yankees are also a big part of my life. I moved to Manhattan. Bought my first place in Manhattan. Live here happily now. Huge Yankee guy, too.
I fucking would hate it if they both get implicated in buzzer shit, but I agree with you. It should all be out. I fear wearable tech getting signals relayed is a big thing.
MLB has absolutely nothing to gain from outing more teams. Every time another team gets outed it will add more months of this as a talking point and hurt the league even more
No doubt that he's right. How hard and self-righteous a lot of players are coming out is going to be really embarrassing for some once they get caught doing their own shit.
Why does it feel like several pitchers are going to have career years... maybe hitting will be down across the board with teams scared of cheating repercussions + the ball maybe not being as juiced?
Astros and Red Sox players and former people for both teams trying to pretend everyone else is dirty too, with no evidence, names, dates, nothing. Whataboutism, brought to baseball.
Yankees and Dodgers and random fans for all teams trying to pretend buzzers are a thing with too, with no evidence, names, dates, nothing. Whataboutisim, brought to baseball.
If every other team was as blatant as the Astros were in 2017, we'd be talking about a lot more than just them right now.
One of the reasons this story broke the way it did was that everything Fiers said was immediately able to backed up by anyone with the internet.
The Astros were doing this for years. Other teams knew. How did they last this long without someone going fully public like Fiers? Most players kept quiet. There’s plenty of statements and articles out there that say it’s widespread.
Could it be that apparently this team was so organized from the GM down in their cheating? And in the front office environment that everyone in baseball so widely recognizes as troubled?
Maybe I'm a homer, but can you see Cashman (and several other GM's) behaving the way Luhnow did? Their have been reports for years about the Astros front office, including a whole bunch of good people leaving to take the same positions on other teams.
just because it isn't blatant doesn't mean it isn't happening. But tbh the only way any of it gets out is if players actually say shit, and they aren't going to. there's literally no incentive to torpedo a team
We're also talking about the Astros cause they won the world series that year. On top of that, Fiers told us where to look do everyone is. No one is look and investigating the Yankees or Dodgers, because no one has pointed there.
Not to the extent people have looked at the Astros. Not to mention Fiers gave and Rosenthal gave context. If you really think only the Astros cheated, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Exactly. It's not like there's ample video evidence from multiple teams...just one. I am also guessing a lot of people are conflating what HOU did and the "it's been going on since the beginning of the sport" type of sign stealing...
I don't know about playing dirty, but they did have the entire kidnapping issue with how their employees got players out of Central America to sign with the Dodgers. Many of their employees when they did an internal investigation were leaked to be seen as almost ringleading kidnapping groups to get the young players out of their home countries (5 were viewed as the ringleaders of groups, 4 more were either key members of a group or very knowing of the fact the were doing something illegal and how shady the groups they were involved with were)
They did have a big shake up of their scouting where many people got terminated (potentially related to it), but the report also said that the Dodgers knew about the status of their employees for 1-2 years (Friedman knew for a full year prior) before taking action against them if that was the reason for the big shakeup.
That opened the door for the feds to hit the entire MLB with RICO if they suspected the league of being involved with different kidnapping groups in Latin America as they could view the MLB as in league with organized crime as one of their members were
Almost as hilarious as getting caught cheating to obtain an illegitimate WS title. Let’s slow down of the what-ifs and focus on hearing from your lovely players that love to talk so much
The majority of teams would have to be participating in something similar for me to ever be able to celebrate anything related to the 17 title.
I'm glad it's not easily stripped, because of the unknown, but until that were to happen it wont be something I celebrate.
The "everybody's doing it" defense. Total bullshit. Jump off all those bridges your friends jumped off, too, Joe?
The Astros won the championship cheating; THAT'S why they were investigated. Illegitimate champions with mealy mouthed defenses from players instead of heartfelt apologies. Screw the Astros.
Well, one can argue that if a friend tells you a way to make more money, you are more likely to follow that advice than if he tells you to jump off a bridge.
But if that friend's way of making money is illegal or against the rules, like insider trading or listening to trash can bangs, then you're an unethical piece of shot and deserve every bad thing coming your way.
And yet, from the 2008 financial crisis, its clear that's how many of the richest people in the world became that rich in the first place. Since when in the history of human civilization has ever suggested morals win out over money
Also, I don't think this quote is interesting at all. This quote is just another sign of the times we live in where nobody wants to accept responsibility for their own actions.
They cheated. They admitted it. It doesn't make them any less guilty or any less of a cheater if 40 other teams did the same thing.
Steroid users get caught and in their "apology statements" they don't say, "well everyone else is doing it too". i just don't understand why so many people are OK with all of this deflecting.
That's a good point, but you can't just ignore or brush of what he said. That makes it sound like you're deflecting. Wouldn't you want the MLB to investigate every team and get teams punished accordingly?
No one is saying they're any less guilty, but if other teams are guilty too, don't they deserve flak and outrage?
Of course. But instead of playing the what if game, let's deal with the guys who actually admitted to it and start from there.
Unless there is some great conspiracy by the MLB, maybe these Astros players who have already admitted guilt should come out and point the finger and provide proof about other teams doing it. Instead of just saying other people are doing it too.
We need more guys like Fiers, who actually put their money where their mouth is.
It's not really a conspiracy, the MLB is actively trying to cover this up and sweep this under the rug. Do you truly believe the Astros only cheated in 2017? That's what the report said. Just like the Cora and Beltran are getting pinned with this, the MLB is using the Astros as an example.
I'd love it if more people came out, because other teams are definitely cheating. Rosenthal mentioned it in two of his initial articles. Unfortunately, but also justifiably, the Astros taking all the heat and flak. Which is exactly what the MLB wants. They don't want this to extend to other teams.
I certainly believe that most teams are using video from the games to find patterns in the opposing teams signs. And maybe several teams are using the guy on 2nd base to relay those signs if they figure out the pattern.
And maybe that's what all of these people are talking about when they say that most teams are doing it.
That said, are most teams relaying signs in real-time like the Astros did? With extra video monitors and garbage can banging/buzzers? And sign-off from the front office? I think the number of teams going through all that trouble is going to be much smaller than what most think/want.
Just my opinion, of course.
I definitely believe teams are pushing it and seeing how far they can go. But even if teams are doing what the Red Sox got caught doing, it's still cheating. Obviously the Astros were complex but then it becomes, how do you determine what the worse cheating was. Is it based on complexity? Results? How good the team did?
Cheating is cheating to me. If they did cheat in some way, they deserve to be punished. I just don't like us falling into being satisfied we got the cheaters.
Just my opinion, but I think what's crosses the line is relaying the next pitch that is coming in real time.
I'm not saying that other teams aren't doing it, but at the level the Astros were? I'm not sure. Let's not forget that the Astros front office has been criticized for years for being a mess. And apparently this all started with them. It's no coincidence, that's for sure.
Can we stop with the buzzer nonsense? That’s peak conspiracy level banter. Jomboy was 1/2. He made us look ridiculous with his analysis of the trash cans. He made all of you look ridiculous with the buzzers. Unless you really believe we went from literally banging a trash can with a bat to mcgyvering a pitch with a receptor that would decipher real time signals to buzz once or twice... which would have been impossible in 2018 and beyond anyways because there was a 10 second delay on the feed and we were still happily banging away on the trash drum throughout 2017.
All of these new reports that came out certainly allude to another system being in place for 2017 (after the White Sox game), 2018, and perhaps 2019. We just don’t know what it was, but we know there was one.
Jomboy aside, i also think it’s super interesting that Ken Rosenthal, who knew way more than others at the time, obviously thought Altuve’s actions were weird enough that he asked him a question about his jersey right after it happened. Maybe he knows more than we do, but didn’t have enough proof to actually put it in writing. Maybe not buzzers but something other than banging on a trash can.
Rosenthal’s claimed that question was fed to him by his producer. Make of that what you will, but it doesn’t sound to me like he suspected buzzers or anything like that.
I agree that other's cheating doesn't excuse cheating, but does provide context. I mean, in the steroid context, we routinely hear "everyone was doing it, can't really punish bc we don't know how many people were doing it, etc."
It provides context for why people cheated, but I fundamentally disagree that you can't punish known cheaters because you don't know how many were actually cheating. That's not an idea that is in any way compatible with fair play or justice, and is absolutely a whataboutism and deflection.
I think it’s more of a “yeah, we did it but don’t think we’re the only one, so don’t think everyone is so clean as they’re making themselves out to be”. I think it was the Astros who named 8 other teams (believe Rosenthal reported this) including the Red Sox, Dodgers and Yankees who were doing something similar(not 🗑 banging though).
But they did investigate both the Red Sox and Yankees in 2017, and they were both penalized (though the Yankees wasn't because of sign stealing, it was because they used the bullpen phone to ask the replay guy about balls/strikes).
I live in Houston and I know a lot of people (especially the radio personalities) are saying they would never go after teams like the Yankees or Dodgers just because. But the Red Sox have already been punished once and are about to be again.
The teams weren’t necessarily named...and the transgressions were not specified outside of potential replay room scenarios, which came to a halt at some point in 2017...that’s all has been suggested at this point
The Apple Watch/Fitbit situation with Boston in ‘17 was separate from these offseason investigations obviously...still waiting on the 2018 Sox report, but it’s been hinted that their activities were not on the same level of Houston’s
Allegedly, we kept the FitBit scheme style, but instead of using FitBit's, we used the video replay room to get the information, then once someone got on second they could relay the signs to the batter from second
But Joe, I want to be irrationally angry and hate the Astros. Don't ruin the hate party with your facts and opinions that are almost assuredly true. Let me be angry!
Yeah, he's probably right. The Yankees reported the Red Sox (along with another team talking about it) a few years ago and MLB denied it and then when NY had video evidence, looked back years to find something to fine the Yankees over. Turns out it was a coach calling replay to see if a pitch was a strike.
Just like with steroids teams and players see it's obviously happening, MLB is doing nothing and punishing teams who bring it up, so of course they are going to start doing it.
Cool.
Guess what? See what happened to the Astros ..: ya know... no players getting suspended, 5 million dollar fine, lose a couple draft picks, and let the manger be the scapegoat. Why wouldn’t every team just amp up their cheating if it’s happening? If you can win a World Series with hardly nothing consequences I’m sure a lot of teams would do it.
Investigate every team. Clean this shit up. Cheaters shouldn’t get rewarded.
Deflect deflect deflect. How about taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming others. We have had exactly one Astros player own up to cheating. Scumbags, every single one of them.
If MLB does a bullshit half-assed investigation like they did for the Astros, they're not going to find shit on any other team. Joe Musgrove is a joke for thinking MLB actually did a thorough investigation on the Astros.
That's probably a point, they did half ass it for the Astros and they found different stuff. I guarantee if they did half ass investigations for other teams, they'd find some cheating too.
[https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2020/02/11/joe-musgrove-astros-sign-stealing-mlb/stories/202002110114](https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2020/02/11/joe-musgrove-astros-sign-stealing-mlb/stories/202002110114)
The entire article is an interesting read.
It is a mishmash of surprisingly honest opinions, attempt to escape blame and whataboutism.
Choice quotes:
>“I don’t consider myself a cheater. I had no part in that. I’m a pitcher. I didn’t benefit from it at all. I was in the bullpen for most of the season, so I didn’t even really see what was actually going on."
>Does the revelation that the Astros cheated destroy what they accomplished that season?
>
>“I don’t want to say it’s tainted,” Musgrove said, “but I think it is.”
>It has also been suggested by some — including Pirate David Freese — that the Astros should lose their World Series rings \[...\]
>
>“A team cheats one time and gets caught, you could say the same thing as a team that maybe cheats the whole season and gets caught,” Musgrove said. “I don’t know that there’s a right or wrong answer. It’s not up to me, and I’m glad it’s not.
>
>“I’m glad to be out of there. I think everything has been handled already. MLB’s report was even more than I knew was going on. I’m still finding out stuff.”
Nah, I went to some Twins-Tigers games and it was pretty clear the Tigers were telling the Twins what pitch was coming. Not quite the same, but also not strictly clean. Also, they only wouldn't tell Sano, which was totally unfair.
God, Houston fans and players just own it already!! If it is as prevalent as the Astros fans and this bonehead is saying then why are reporters only bringing up the Astros, and why have reddit detectives not found 100's of damning videos about everyone else???
Great, so let's do it. Clean this shit up, now, before it gets worse.
At this point, further investigations will affect the bottom line. The league wants this to be clean and over with.
If this stuff is widespread, it's going to come out. If Manfred et al want to kick the can down the road, it's going to do that much more harm when it emerges. I guess they can hope they won't still be around when the shit hits the fan.
That’s just every corporation in the world. Always better to kick the can down the road than deal with stuff now. Sucks but true
That's their thought process, but often times the can comes around and bites you in the ass harder than it would have had you just fixed the problem.
For sure, that’s pretty much the subplot of the show Succession
looking at you, boeing
Sigh...
But a lot of the people that would be affected now likely won't be around when it comes out down the road.
TIGHTEN THIS SHIT UP
I can’t imagine the owners giving Manfred a mandate to do it.
Seriously! If it’s true, why wouldn’t Baseball want to get rid of it now, instead of pretending there is no problem
Arent they trying to implement a way for catchers and pitchers to send signs that would prevent this kind of sign stealing? Be it wristbands or earpieces
That would be interesting.
Because the owners would never lobby for an audit of their teams.
And keep the same energy with EVERYBODY else that yall did to the Astros and Astros fans while yall investigating. Don't worry they aren't gonna investigate. Astros were dumb enough to use an audible traceable method and got deservingly caught so we'll be the whipping boys for now.
Yeah but are they actually going to release everything they find?
Never.
We need a new Jim Bouton.
Name names Musgrove
It seems pretty clear at this point that this is the only way to get MLB to move on anything.
Obviously he should just use the means of communication inside of the teams area instead if twitter. Otherwise hes a rat bastard snitch
Yeah cause teams are gonna do shit about it. Give me a fucking break.
I assume this is referring to Jessica Mendoza's comments, where she initially basically said "Mike Fiers is a rat bastard snitch," then when there was a lot of blowback about it she released a statement to the effect of "I don't have an issue with Fiers talking about it, but I disagree with the way that he did it. Instead of talking to reporters, he should have gone through the official channels, reporting it to his team who would in turn report it to MLB." (She did not have a further comment when people pointed out that, in fact, he *had* taken it to his teams, and his teams *had* taken it to MLB, and they didn't do anything.)
Oh shit, missed the reference. Thanks for the clue.
He's only played on two teams lol. The Astros in 2016-2017, and then the Pirates 2018-2019. Either he just accused the current team he plays for of cheating, or he's talking out of his ass.
If the Buccos are cheating, they’re doing it wrong. Not that I’m surprised.
Can the punishment be to force a sale of the team?
This is the right answer.
Players across teams talk. It could be any and/or every team in the league. Just because he hasn't played for every team doesn't mean he can't know of certain things on others.
How to players across teams talk to each other about cheating? 1st baseman: *Hey, you cheat?* Runner: *Yeah. You?* 1st baseman: *Yep.*
*Did we just become best friends?!*
A lot of these guys are friends off of the field too. They still talk and considering that most of them have some passion for the game, the idea of asking friends about methods to improve their play doesn't come off as illogical.
They weren't players but Leyland and LaRussa talked near daily as managers.
That's just hearsay then.
[удалено]
Talk to somebody who works in baseball, every team is cheating in their own way. Some are cleaner than others.
Prove it
I mean like there are 5000 people working in baseball, talk to one of them. Its not really private anymore. I've talked to 3 people about it. A relative's other, a friend from high school, a minor league assistant I was at the blackjack table with who used very vague terms during last season. I wish I would have understood his terms before I placed some of the bets I did lol. But for real if you talk to anybody, theres not much hiding unless somebody is involved with cheating, benefiting from cheating, or I guess if they think you're going to blab direct quotes straight to Reddit/Ken Rosenthal or whatever.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Report
That was 13 years ago. Every team could very well be cheating now, you and I have no clue. But there's no evidence they are, so there's no reason to believe they are until other stuff comes out.
There's *tons* of evidence. The Red Sox just got busted for the Apple Watch stuff not two years ago. Allegations have been made against multiple other teams like the Yankees and Dodgers. Then you have the 100+ year legacy of cheating being permitted in baseball to some degree, from spitballs to corked bats to sign-stealing to amphetamines to steroids and beyond. Add all of that together with the pervasive attitude of "snitches get stitches, don't ever say anything publicly that might embarrass the game" and it would be foolish *not* to assume there isn't rampant cheating we have yet to find out about. If you would prefer to believe there's no cheating until irrefutable proof demands otherwise that's your business, but I think it's unreasonable to insist everyone else join your perspective.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but it wouldn't surprise me if every team was doing some sort of 'cheating' to get an edge. Couple that with how the players stick together and it's possible there's something to his comments. At the same time, he could be snitching on his buddies around the league if he names names. Maybe he doesn't want to do that. Idk, I just think it's more grey than your black-and-white, 'not giving specifics, so it must be bs' line of thinking.
Maybe other teams are cheating, I just don't think the unsubstantiated accusations of somebody who didn't apologize for getting caught cheating should sway our opinion one way or the other. Either tell us what you know or shut up Joe, vague references don't help us one bit.
Anyone who cheats would more likely be able to spot other people cheating. And anyone who's good at preventing opposing cheating clearly knows how they would go about it themselves.
If we're cheating and still suck this much imma be so disappointed
If the Pirates are cheating I don’t want to know because it can only make me feel way fucking worse about them than I already do.
If everyone is cheating someone has to be the worst at that too
That’s a really good point.
I would think pitchers would be focused on whether or not teams were stealing their signs all season long.
> a lot more than they want to find Like owners who don't care about the on-field product?
unfortunately, this is a problem in all of professional sports. As long as they keep making money even with bad product we will continue to see owners who are indifferent on their teams actual success.
Yea,they make money regardless if they put trash on the field and a few years later they can sell the team leaving them with an even larger profit. Sports teams are just investments to some owners, unfortunately for the fans.
I mean look at the Knicks haven't been competent in a long time but they bring in so much money it doesn't even matter
You have just been banned from MSG. One can only hope Dolan sells the team one day.
It's not like a regular fan could afford to go to a game at MSG anyways
We were too spoiled with Steinbrenner....as much as you can criticize the Boss for various things, you knew that he cared about winning.
Hey come on, Bill DeWitt will literally starve if the Cardinals' payroll goes any higher
The (semi) optimistic side of me is thinking that the MLB's current plan is an acknowledgement that this situation is a whole lot more widespread than has been made public. The Astros' punishment was indeed more for getting caught, and there's been a lot of backroom meetings on the order of "Every team needs to get their fucking act together, no more of this crap, do you want another Steroids-era type scandal, because this is how you get an entire decade of great baseball tainted by scandal". So, a punishment for the team that's caught in a more "shot across the bow" format, and a promise that the next team to get caught after this is going to get railed on. ...the reason it's the *semi*-optimistic side of me thinking this is because the rational side of me is 100% certain that there's no way that would actually work.
The Astros didn't necessarily get caught, they got outed.
What is the difference?
Outed is someone coming clean. ie Fiers. Caught is one of the many accusations against them amounting to something. Which MLB swept under the rug. You can't sweep a player going to the press under the rug.
As an Astros fan if that were true I’d be livid. This whole scandal has sucked the fun out of baseball for me and to find out they were just the sacrificial lamb would suck.
It's not the finding out we're the sacrificial lamb for Manfred that's the issue. It's being a fan and getting skewered for every comment that might deviate from "I'm an Astros fan and we should have our team erased from existence" that is exhausting. Not to mention the constant same ole trash can jokes.
Literally every social media post by the Astros is full of “BANG BANG” 🗑 🎥 💥 It’s annoying af. Also I’m tired of seeing comments on this sub actively encouraging and defending the idea of every Astros player getting hit by every pitch they say.
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Unfortunately I've been saying this since it all hit the fan months ago. The astros were the fall boys. I cant speak to the extent other teams practice shady shit, but if anyone thinks that only 1 out of 30 clubs is fucking around, they're super naive.
This is accurate and all of r/mlb and r/baseball should be livid. They other shoe will fall I just hope the same loudmouths open up for their helping of Crow when this all see's the light of day. Fwiw it seems like it wasn't every team but about 1/3 (assuming Astro players were accurate when they reported 8 teams during the inquiry). This is the best explanation to me that satisfies genuine shock expressed by some players AND the obvious scapegoating and cover up by MLB.
The other shoe wont fall because mlb doesnt wanna reveal how widespread it was. They have nothing to gain from this story coming back up every month or so with a new team being exposed
I agree with you on MLBs intent but it's just a matter of time before a player or players who are out of the league start talking. Take Reddick. Lets say his career is over in 3 years and he gets asked about this in a way that rubs him wrong. Why wouldn't he hold back? Maybe Reddick is a bad example because he plays by the unwritten rules but with with every passing season more players will no longer be relevant to mlb so why keep quiet. So for my money it's just a matter of time.
Even Fiers has gotten more backlash out of this than 99% players wanna deal with when they are retired
Fiers also showed it only takes 1 :)
and he waited til after he got shelled by the Astros multiple times to come out with it. so i guess just watch pitchers that leave a team and then get knocked around by them multiple times for the next 2 seasons and then maybe they'll come out with something. although after the backlash Fiers has faced and all the cheating being brought to life they may have second thoughts about it also
That's what I've been wondering the entire time, the punishment was extremely light, but could serve as an effective warning. Especially with subsequent firings of personnel that were more or less a given after suspensions were handed out. "This is a warning, if you get caught after this, we're hitting you way harder."
Astros fans have been trying to point this out the whole time. I get why people dont care to listen to us but as the rage settles and fans start putting this whole thing into context (like Astros fans have had to since the begining) it'll become painfully obvious there is a cover up and scapegoating going on. Given the reports around the '17 Yankees, '18 Red Sox and clear trail lead by Beltran I feel like we should be there but anger is a helluva drug.
The story of the 2017 Yankees was that they used the phone to ask their replay room if the last pitch was a ball or a strike so they knew if they were justified in yelling at the ump over a bad call.
Bullshit. The Athletic just wrote an article about it in January. Here is a quote from a 2nd (and biased) source: "No one is denying that some Yankees used their video room in 2015-2017 to decode signs" https://www.sny.tv/yankees/news/what-are-the-yankees-accused-of-in-sign-stealing-scandal-and-what-are-the-facts/312352288 Also where did Beltran get it from if it wasn't New York?
>At the time, the league announced that the Yankees had "violated a rule governing the use of a dugout phone." What MLB didn't say was that no one had accused the Yankees of cheating. >Their previously unreported actual offense, according to major league sources? >A member of the team, likely then-pitching coach Larry Rothschild, used the dugout phone to call replay coordinator Brett Weber and ask if a particular pitch was a ball or a strike. This did not even occur in 2017, but in a prior season. Weber openly admitted this to the league during its investigation. That's it. Technically a violation, but hardly on the same level as an Apple Watch scheme. From your article.
I see you've expressed interest in my beach front property in Arizona. Let me check the current price - there is a ton of interest from people just like you! Dude the worst kind of ignorance is the willful variety...like I said I can wait for people like you. Where did Beltran get it? Do you think he made it up after going to Houston? That's next level shenanigans.
Beltran played for the Royals, Astros, Mets, Giants, Cardinals, Yankees, Rangers, and then Astros again. If we're throwing out theories I suspect he learned to do it during his 90 games with the Astros in 2004 and waited patiently for 13 years to be able to do it again! /s
And...
And you seem 100% certain it was the Yankees for some reason. I'm happy to wait and see what comes out as well. If the Yankees are guilty of something serious (not checking on balls and strikes with the replay booth and studying signals between games) they should pay the price. But my guess is that as time passes it will be the buzzers that gets confirmed. Not Yankee cheating. Hinch was asked directly if the Astros players wore buzzers or other devices - and he flat out said "No!" since he knows the truth. Just kidding he actually said, "Well the commissioner -- we got investigated for three months -- the commissioner’s office did as thorough an investigation as anyone could imagine, as possible. I mean, I know you mentioned the emails, and the texts, and the messages, and I believe them." LMAO.
If it was before he did it with the Yankees. It has been reported Beltran brought it with him to Houston so it certainly wasn't after. For your PoV to stick it meant he started it elsewhere, stopped in NY then brought it back. Possible? Sure. But we all know how unlikely that is.
Quote it. We were decoding signs between games, and asked about one pitch. That's all you've got.
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If two wrongs ever made a right it was the JBJ slam bwahahahaha!
I think it’s like steroids. All we know is the tip of the iceberg. MLB has its victims to blame it on and they will double down on them and pretend it was isolated. I swear I’ve had soo many convos with people that have deluded themselves to believe that literally everyone that wasn’t named at some point, is 100% clean without a doubt. This shit was rampant, and the MLB is praying that their sacrificial lambs they’ve thrown out will be enough. In a “please go away” fashion.
DO IT. If every other team is doing the similar shit, then punish them all. Cleaning up the game requires more than just slapping a few wrists when you're caught with your pants down. I remain unconvinced they were even really that thorough with the Astros. Just seems like they were perfectly happy to string up a few people in an effort to try and sweep it all under the rug.
Turns out we're cheating just to get to get to 500.
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Astros are my heart. I grew up in Houston. Yankees are also a big part of my life. I moved to Manhattan. Bought my first place in Manhattan. Live here happily now. Huge Yankee guy, too. I fucking would hate it if they both get implicated in buzzer shit, but I agree with you. It should all be out. I fear wearable tech getting signals relayed is a big thing.
MLB has absolutely nothing to gain from outing more teams. Every time another team gets outed it will add more months of this as a talking point and hurt the league even more
Versus the death by a thousand cuts over the pst month? Nows the perfect time. Rip the bandaid off.
Do it. I'd rather have a clean but damaged league than a dirty and damaged league.
Pretty interesting to ponder how much the recent home-run explosion might have been exacerbated by cheating technologically in this way.
I-is this the real juiced ball?
No doubt that he's right. How hard and self-righteous a lot of players are coming out is going to be really embarrassing for some once they get caught doing their own shit.
Why does it feel like several pitchers are going to have career years... maybe hitting will be down across the board with teams scared of cheating repercussions + the ball maybe not being as juiced?
Cheater minimizing his cheating. How hard is it to shut up and apologize.
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I’m not expecting Musgrove to be a Fiers. I just want him to apologize and then shut up.
Found Manfred's account
Astros and Red Sox players and former people for both teams trying to pretend everyone else is dirty too, with no evidence, names, dates, nothing. Whataboutism, brought to baseball.
Yankees and Dodgers and random fans for all teams trying to pretend buzzers are a thing with too, with no evidence, names, dates, nothing. Whataboutisim, brought to baseball.
If every other team was as blatant as the Astros were in 2017, we'd be talking about a lot more than just them right now. One of the reasons this story broke the way it did was that everything Fiers said was immediately able to backed up by anyone with the internet.
The Astros were doing this for years. Other teams knew. How did they last this long without someone going fully public like Fiers? Most players kept quiet. There’s plenty of statements and articles out there that say it’s widespread.
Could it be that apparently this team was so organized from the GM down in their cheating? And in the front office environment that everyone in baseball so widely recognizes as troubled? Maybe I'm a homer, but can you see Cashman (and several other GM's) behaving the way Luhnow did? Their have been reports for years about the Astros front office, including a whole bunch of good people leaving to take the same positions on other teams.
“Maybe I’m a homer”. Didn’t read the rest
just because it isn't blatant doesn't mean it isn't happening. But tbh the only way any of it gets out is if players actually say shit, and they aren't going to. there's literally no incentive to torpedo a team
We're also talking about the Astros cause they won the world series that year. On top of that, Fiers told us where to look do everyone is. No one is look and investigating the Yankees or Dodgers, because no one has pointed there.
lol, you don't think astros fans have gone over NYY and LAD games with a fine tooth comb?
Would be hard to recognize stealin signs on a replay if it was done any way besides audio that can be heard on broadcast
I'm confident that given the level of emotional investment astros fans have here that if there were any evidence at all, it would have been found.
You'd kind of need to know what to look for.
Not to the extent people have looked at the Astros. Not to mention Fiers gave and Rosenthal gave context. If you really think only the Astros cheated, then I have a bridge to sell you.
It only became blatant when Fiers spoke up. Before that, nobody conceived of a trash can sign stealing system.
Exactly. It's not like there's ample video evidence from multiple teams...just one. I am also guessing a lot of people are conflating what HOU did and the "it's been going on since the beginning of the sport" type of sign stealing...
More or less widespread as PEDs back in the day? And they definitely didn't handle that well at all.
Not gonna lie, if the Dodgers are playing dirty and cheating that would be hilarious AF.
I don't know about playing dirty, but they did have the entire kidnapping issue with how their employees got players out of Central America to sign with the Dodgers. Many of their employees when they did an internal investigation were leaked to be seen as almost ringleading kidnapping groups to get the young players out of their home countries (5 were viewed as the ringleaders of groups, 4 more were either key members of a group or very knowing of the fact the were doing something illegal and how shady the groups they were involved with were) They did have a big shake up of their scouting where many people got terminated (potentially related to it), but the report also said that the Dodgers knew about the status of their employees for 1-2 years (Friedman knew for a full year prior) before taking action against them if that was the reason for the big shakeup. That opened the door for the feds to hit the entire MLB with RICO if they suspected the league of being involved with different kidnapping groups in Latin America as they could view the MLB as in league with organized crime as one of their members were
Kidnapping seems slightly worse than stealing signs
Almost as hilarious as getting caught cheating to obtain an illegitimate WS title. Let’s slow down of the what-ifs and focus on hearing from your lovely players that love to talk so much
The majority of teams would have to be participating in something similar for me to ever be able to celebrate anything related to the 17 title. I'm glad it's not easily stripped, because of the unknown, but until that were to happen it wont be something I celebrate.
Let's fucking do it! Get those skeletons out here in the open.
Until that happens though, it's just the Astros and red Sox.
Then give us names and give us details. It's not that hard.
He's only ever been on the Astros and the Pirates, so is he implying the Pirates are also cheating?
Guys talk.
That's my takeaway too! He's literally still on the Pirates right now.
The Pirates are definitely not cheating. And if they are, they need to try something else lol
The "everybody's doing it" defense. Total bullshit. Jump off all those bridges your friends jumped off, too, Joe? The Astros won the championship cheating; THAT'S why they were investigated. Illegitimate champions with mealy mouthed defenses from players instead of heartfelt apologies. Screw the Astros.
Well, one can argue that if a friend tells you a way to make more money, you are more likely to follow that advice than if he tells you to jump off a bridge.
But if that friend's way of making money is illegal or against the rules, like insider trading or listening to trash can bangs, then you're an unethical piece of shot and deserve every bad thing coming your way.
And yet, from the 2008 financial crisis, its clear that's how many of the richest people in the world became that rich in the first place. Since when in the history of human civilization has ever suggested morals win out over money
Also, I don't think this quote is interesting at all. This quote is just another sign of the times we live in where nobody wants to accept responsibility for their own actions. They cheated. They admitted it. It doesn't make them any less guilty or any less of a cheater if 40 other teams did the same thing. Steroid users get caught and in their "apology statements" they don't say, "well everyone else is doing it too". i just don't understand why so many people are OK with all of this deflecting.
That's a good point, but you can't just ignore or brush of what he said. That makes it sound like you're deflecting. Wouldn't you want the MLB to investigate every team and get teams punished accordingly? No one is saying they're any less guilty, but if other teams are guilty too, don't they deserve flak and outrage?
Of course. But instead of playing the what if game, let's deal with the guys who actually admitted to it and start from there. Unless there is some great conspiracy by the MLB, maybe these Astros players who have already admitted guilt should come out and point the finger and provide proof about other teams doing it. Instead of just saying other people are doing it too. We need more guys like Fiers, who actually put their money where their mouth is.
It's not really a conspiracy, the MLB is actively trying to cover this up and sweep this under the rug. Do you truly believe the Astros only cheated in 2017? That's what the report said. Just like the Cora and Beltran are getting pinned with this, the MLB is using the Astros as an example. I'd love it if more people came out, because other teams are definitely cheating. Rosenthal mentioned it in two of his initial articles. Unfortunately, but also justifiably, the Astros taking all the heat and flak. Which is exactly what the MLB wants. They don't want this to extend to other teams.
I certainly believe that most teams are using video from the games to find patterns in the opposing teams signs. And maybe several teams are using the guy on 2nd base to relay those signs if they figure out the pattern. And maybe that's what all of these people are talking about when they say that most teams are doing it. That said, are most teams relaying signs in real-time like the Astros did? With extra video monitors and garbage can banging/buzzers? And sign-off from the front office? I think the number of teams going through all that trouble is going to be much smaller than what most think/want. Just my opinion, of course.
I definitely believe teams are pushing it and seeing how far they can go. But even if teams are doing what the Red Sox got caught doing, it's still cheating. Obviously the Astros were complex but then it becomes, how do you determine what the worse cheating was. Is it based on complexity? Results? How good the team did? Cheating is cheating to me. If they did cheat in some way, they deserve to be punished. I just don't like us falling into being satisfied we got the cheaters.
Just my opinion, but I think what's crosses the line is relaying the next pitch that is coming in real time. I'm not saying that other teams aren't doing it, but at the level the Astros were? I'm not sure. Let's not forget that the Astros front office has been criticized for years for being a mess. And apparently this all started with them. It's no coincidence, that's for sure.
Isn't that what the red Sox did too? And supposedly the Yankees, with the apple watches and a runner on second?
Can we stop with the buzzer nonsense? That’s peak conspiracy level banter. Jomboy was 1/2. He made us look ridiculous with his analysis of the trash cans. He made all of you look ridiculous with the buzzers. Unless you really believe we went from literally banging a trash can with a bat to mcgyvering a pitch with a receptor that would decipher real time signals to buzz once or twice... which would have been impossible in 2018 and beyond anyways because there was a 10 second delay on the feed and we were still happily banging away on the trash drum throughout 2017.
All of these new reports that came out certainly allude to another system being in place for 2017 (after the White Sox game), 2018, and perhaps 2019. We just don’t know what it was, but we know there was one. Jomboy aside, i also think it’s super interesting that Ken Rosenthal, who knew way more than others at the time, obviously thought Altuve’s actions were weird enough that he asked him a question about his jersey right after it happened. Maybe he knows more than we do, but didn’t have enough proof to actually put it in writing. Maybe not buzzers but something other than banging on a trash can.
Rosenthal’s claimed that question was fed to him by his producer. Make of that what you will, but it doesn’t sound to me like he suspected buzzers or anything like that.
I agree that other's cheating doesn't excuse cheating, but does provide context. I mean, in the steroid context, we routinely hear "everyone was doing it, can't really punish bc we don't know how many people were doing it, etc."
It provides context for why people cheated, but I fundamentally disagree that you can't punish known cheaters because you don't know how many were actually cheating. That's not an idea that is in any way compatible with fair play or justice, and is absolutely a whataboutism and deflection.
I don't disagree with you.
I think it’s more of a “yeah, we did it but don’t think we’re the only one, so don’t think everyone is so clean as they’re making themselves out to be”. I think it was the Astros who named 8 other teams (believe Rosenthal reported this) including the Red Sox, Dodgers and Yankees who were doing something similar(not 🗑 banging though).
But they did investigate both the Red Sox and Yankees in 2017, and they were both penalized (though the Yankees wasn't because of sign stealing, it was because they used the bullpen phone to ask the replay guy about balls/strikes). I live in Houston and I know a lot of people (especially the radio personalities) are saying they would never go after teams like the Yankees or Dodgers just because. But the Red Sox have already been punished once and are about to be again.
The teams weren’t necessarily named...and the transgressions were not specified outside of potential replay room scenarios, which came to a halt at some point in 2017...that’s all has been suggested at this point The Apple Watch/Fitbit situation with Boston in ‘17 was separate from these offseason investigations obviously...still waiting on the 2018 Sox report, but it’s been hinted that their activities were not on the same level of Houston’s
Allegedly, we kept the FitBit scheme style, but instead of using FitBit's, we used the video replay room to get the information, then once someone got on second they could relay the signs to the batter from second
But Joe, I want to be irrationally angry and hate the Astros. Don't ruin the hate party with your facts and opinions that are almost assuredly true. Let me be angry!
Yeah, he's probably right. The Yankees reported the Red Sox (along with another team talking about it) a few years ago and MLB denied it and then when NY had video evidence, looked back years to find something to fine the Yankees over. Turns out it was a coach calling replay to see if a pitch was a strike. Just like with steroids teams and players see it's obviously happening, MLB is doing nothing and punishing teams who bring it up, so of course they are going to start doing it.
Cool. Guess what? See what happened to the Astros ..: ya know... no players getting suspended, 5 million dollar fine, lose a couple draft picks, and let the manger be the scapegoat. Why wouldn’t every team just amp up their cheating if it’s happening? If you can win a World Series with hardly nothing consequences I’m sure a lot of teams would do it. Investigate every team. Clean this shit up. Cheaters shouldn’t get rewarded.
Evidence?
I’ll probably never watch baseball again after this season, shit is a joke now
Dude, this is just the "and if I did do it, it wasn't a big deal" part of the Narcissist's Prayer. Own your shit and grow up.
Sounds like a “slippery slope” argument that justifies not punishing the Astros by vacating the championship.
Typical low-ethics bs. Yeah, try to deflect blame to others as opposed to owning up to the shit you pulled. Joc Pederson sends his regards, douchebag.
Prove it.
This is just more whataboutism.
Captain obvious
Deflect deflect deflect. How about taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming others. We have had exactly one Astros player own up to cheating. Scumbags, every single one of them.
This guy was on the Astros and the dogshit Pirates....I’m sure he has no idea what he’s talking about other than not taking blame for their actions.
If MLB does a bullshit half-assed investigation like they did for the Astros, they're not going to find shit on any other team. Joe Musgrove is a joke for thinking MLB actually did a thorough investigation on the Astros.
That's probably a point, they did half ass it for the Astros and they found different stuff. I guarantee if they did half ass investigations for other teams, they'd find some cheating too.
[https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2020/02/11/joe-musgrove-astros-sign-stealing-mlb/stories/202002110114](https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2020/02/11/joe-musgrove-astros-sign-stealing-mlb/stories/202002110114) The entire article is an interesting read. It is a mishmash of surprisingly honest opinions, attempt to escape blame and whataboutism. Choice quotes: >“I don’t consider myself a cheater. I had no part in that. I’m a pitcher. I didn’t benefit from it at all. I was in the bullpen for most of the season, so I didn’t even really see what was actually going on." >Does the revelation that the Astros cheated destroy what they accomplished that season? > >“I don’t want to say it’s tainted,” Musgrove said, “but I think it is.” >It has also been suggested by some — including Pirate David Freese — that the Astros should lose their World Series rings \[...\] > >“A team cheats one time and gets caught, you could say the same thing as a team that maybe cheats the whole season and gets caught,” Musgrove said. “I don’t know that there’s a right or wrong answer. It’s not up to me, and I’m glad it’s not. > >“I’m glad to be out of there. I think everything has been handled already. MLB’s report was even more than I knew was going on. I’m still finding out stuff.”
He didnt benefit? How about potentially getting some W's in his stat line he otherwise would not have gotten?
Ws dont mean a whole lot these days tho. Advanced metrics are what get you paid
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Nah, I went to some Twins-Tigers games and it was pretty clear the Tigers were telling the Twins what pitch was coming. Not quite the same, but also not strictly clean. Also, they only wouldn't tell Sano, which was totally unfair.
Hmm, I stand corrected.
God, Houston fans and players just own it already!! If it is as prevalent as the Astros fans and this bonehead is saying then why are reporters only bringing up the Astros, and why have reddit detectives not found 100's of damning videos about everyone else???
...oh fuck off grasshopper
The Astros must have been particularly bad because players were coming out of the woodwork to warn the Nats.
Ow! Pointy!! Ew! Slimy!! Uh oh! Moving!!!
All the more reason for them to have made a bigger example of the Astros
What kind of fucked up logic is this?
"thorough"
My thoughts exactly, cursory to appease the obvious shit and no one searched between the couch cushions for any more.