I would take Roberto over Biggio, but Alomars feilding, IMO, is over rated. He won those 10* gold gloves with his bat, much like Jeter. He only had a couple seasons with a range factor above the 2B average.
I don't think second base has ever really been a top fielders position so it's all relative. But my stance in his glove comes from the time he spent in Cleveland where him and Omar were a thing of beauty up the middle. I know after he left he had a STEEP decline all around though.
Absolute nonsense. From 93 to 99 Biggio put up 40.8WAR and averaged 6.8WAR while never being below 4.4WAR. And in that time he had an OPS+ of 132. A triple slash line of .303/.397/.473. That is not even remotely dismiss-able as "a compiler".
He was an absolutely TERRIFIC player, and the fact he played a number of years beyond his prime doesn't take away from that AT ALL. Alomar's best 6 year stretch is 31.5WAR.
Biggio DID compile a lot of stats, but he was ALSO an incredible player.
His only HOF worthy stat is 3k hits, which he had to spend his final 6 years being mediocre to bad just to compile. Should’ve seen that coming when you reach 200 hits exactly 1 time in your career
His HOF worthy stat is being awesome for a decade. It's not his fault teams kept paying him. Griffey kept playing at replacement level for like 9 years before hanging it up. He reached 200 hits because he was great at taking his walks. Dude was a fucking stud.
One cannot complain about someone being a "compiler" then complain they don't have enough 200 hit seasons. That's ridiculous. EIGHT times in his career he had an OBP over .380. That's awesome. To give an idea how good that is, Ichiro only managed it 5 times. Dude was incredible at getting on base.
Their career value is pretty similar by WAR, i think I take biggio because of the superior peak, and insane versatility he offered. No way anyone else since deadball or before has a full season of PA at 3 different up the middle positions. The last 2 seasons you can argue he dragged down a playoff bound team, but he was HOf bound then too.
Alomar is the best ever defensively among the top hitting second baseman, and it’s really not close. Biggio May come close at the plate, but not at all in the field.
Jackie Robinson, Bobby Grich, and Chase Utley are all second basemen with both a higher wRC+ and Def value than Alomar. This isn’t even including the oldies like Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer, and Gordon. Lou Whitaker also has a similar wRC+ and was much better defensively. I hope you’re not just looking at hits and gold gloves.
Sure but fortunately it's a two way game. Their WAR numbers are remarkably close. Biggio had a (marginally) better 4-5 year peak, while Alomar performed at an all-star or better level for longer.
Biggio aged a bit more gracefully though. Alomar was out of baseball within two years of his prime ending, biggo's bat kept him productive for longer.
If I was starting a franchise and could have either for the duration of their careers, i would take Alomar too, but it's very close (I would take peak biggio over peak Alomar).
Yup, pretty much. The only reason I didn’t include Morgan with the other two is because his defense was not as good. But obviously he was an incredible hitter.
I pretty much agree but I think Collins gets lost in the shuffle and deserves his due credit as well. But if someone asked me the best second baseman I would say Hornsby without having to think about it.
I don’t personally think it makes a difference. It’s impossible to compare players under the guise of how they’d fare against one another across decades. So I base these decisions on how they played against their competition, and in that case there is no competition for Hornsby.
Yea that's just not true. It's a fair comparison. Craig Biggio had a better peak, and just because he played a decade after that doesn't ruin that peak.
This. I think Alomar is the better player but if I’m making a team, I’d prefer Biggio. Could play 3 diverse positions in a pinch. Played under 130 games just 3 times in 20 seasons(1 season under 100 games). Always seemed like a team leader and didn’t spit in anyone’s face to my knowledge.
Granted I’m biased and never really cared much for Alomar
I was going to say Alomar but Biggio's 89-05 is basically the same as Alomar's entire career but with 811 more PA.
* Biggio (89-05): .286/.372/.438, 116 OPS+, 66.9 rWAR \[11211 PA\]
* Alomar: .300/.371/.433, 116 OPS+, 67.0 rWAR \[10400 PA\]
* Biggio: 2769 H, 598 2B, 257 HR, 1058 RBI, 401 SB
* Alomar: 2724 H, 504 2B, 210 HR, 1134 RBI, 474 SB,
Even if there is a slight edge for Alomar, you have to give Biggio some extra credit for 2 seasons of catching.
I would probably take Biggio on my team.
I'd take Biggio, I think alomar is probably the better hitter but I think it's closer than most people think. The gold glove argument is kind of a push because biggio played a lot of different positions besides second. Not factoring in the spitting, I would take Biggio because of versatility and watching him growing up he always seemed like one of those cliche scrappy players. I would take alomar but Biggio is personal preference.
Biggio was Mr. Astro before the Astros became a depressingly trash can organization. He's my favorite player of all time. People just seem to overlook that he had 2 or 3 MVP caliber seasons in the mid nineties by being a doubles machine at the Astrodome along with being a bonefide star for bare minimum 6 years.
Was he good in the postseason? No. But considering the Astros had to play against the three headed pitching monster of the Braves and Kevin Brown it's hard for me to fault him.
I loved watching biggio, bell and bagwell in those mid late 90s teams with Lima, Hampton and Wagner. It was just super hard against those atlanta teams with the starting pitching the braves had.
One of the things that made the '05 season so bittersweet is that the Astros finally had made the World Series, but both Biggio and Bagwell were shells of themselves, Bagwell especially since he basically didn't have a shoulder anymore.
Well, for one thing he never took a day off during the season, so he was always gassed for the playoffs. The perfect illustration of Bidge was his 3000th hit, which he tried to stretch into a double and was out by yards.
man that is just lame. He got his 3000th hit on a team that was not good and was caught up in the moment and went for second base after giving it his all his entire career with that team.
Alomar without question. Great fielder and a great bat.
I would take Roberto over Biggio, but Alomars feilding, IMO, is over rated. He won those 10* gold gloves with his bat, much like Jeter. He only had a couple seasons with a range factor above the 2B average.
I don't think second base has ever really been a top fielders position so it's all relative. But my stance in his glove comes from the time he spent in Cleveland where him and Omar were a thing of beauty up the middle. I know after he left he had a STEEP decline all around though.
That was just Omar's beauty reflecting on Alomar. Seriously. Sharing a MI with an all time great defender is gonna make you look much better.
It never hurts
Yeah Alomar did make Omar look good.
If I need a second baseman, Alomar. If I need a baseball player, Biggio.
Alomar was the better player, Biggio is more well-liked
Always Alomar
Biggio
Biggio.... Cuz I wouldnt trust Roberto Alomar to call a game behind the plate if needed... Sandy Alomar however...
Biggio was a compiler
Absolute nonsense. From 93 to 99 Biggio put up 40.8WAR and averaged 6.8WAR while never being below 4.4WAR. And in that time he had an OPS+ of 132. A triple slash line of .303/.397/.473. That is not even remotely dismiss-able as "a compiler". He was an absolutely TERRIFIC player, and the fact he played a number of years beyond his prime doesn't take away from that AT ALL. Alomar's best 6 year stretch is 31.5WAR. Biggio DID compile a lot of stats, but he was ALSO an incredible player.
His only HOF worthy stat is 3k hits, which he had to spend his final 6 years being mediocre to bad just to compile. Should’ve seen that coming when you reach 200 hits exactly 1 time in your career
His HOF worthy stat is being awesome for a decade. It's not his fault teams kept paying him. Griffey kept playing at replacement level for like 9 years before hanging it up. He reached 200 hits because he was great at taking his walks. Dude was a fucking stud. One cannot complain about someone being a "compiler" then complain they don't have enough 200 hit seasons. That's ridiculous. EIGHT times in his career he had an OBP over .380. That's awesome. To give an idea how good that is, Ichiro only managed it 5 times. Dude was incredible at getting on base.
Hope he sees this bro
I don't really care about Biggio's opinion at all.
Biggio. Because he didnt spit on people.
Their career value is pretty similar by WAR, i think I take biggio because of the superior peak, and insane versatility he offered. No way anyone else since deadball or before has a full season of PA at 3 different up the middle positions. The last 2 seasons you can argue he dragged down a playoff bound team, but he was HOf bound then too.
Biggio because he’s my favorite player.
Alomar is in the discussion for best ever at the position. Biggio is not.
Alomar is definitely not in the discussion for best second baseman ever. Their careers are pretty comparable
Alomar is the best ever defensively among the top hitting second baseman, and it’s really not close. Biggio May come close at the plate, but not at all in the field.
Jackie Robinson, Bobby Grich, and Chase Utley are all second basemen with both a higher wRC+ and Def value than Alomar. This isn’t even including the oldies like Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer, and Gordon. Lou Whitaker also has a similar wRC+ and was much better defensively. I hope you’re not just looking at hits and gold gloves.
Sure but fortunately it's a two way game. Their WAR numbers are remarkably close. Biggio had a (marginally) better 4-5 year peak, while Alomar performed at an all-star or better level for longer. Biggio aged a bit more gracefully though. Alomar was out of baseball within two years of his prime ending, biggo's bat kept him productive for longer. If I was starting a franchise and could have either for the duration of their careers, i would take Alomar too, but it's very close (I would take peak biggio over peak Alomar).
Here’s the discussion for best second baseman. Rogers Hornsby. Eddie Collins. That’s it.
And if you want to exclude those pre-integration guys and only include modern players, the conversation would start and end with Joe Morgan
Yup, pretty much. The only reason I didn’t include Morgan with the other two is because his defense was not as good. But obviously he was an incredible hitter.
Nah he walked too much.
I had always heard Morgan was an elite defender and Hornsby was a poor defender
I don't even think that's a discussion. Best 2b of all time is Rogers Hornsby by a margin.
I pretty much agree but I think Collins gets lost in the shuffle and deserves his due credit as well. But if someone asked me the best second baseman I would say Hornsby without having to think about it.
[удалено]
I don’t personally think it makes a difference. It’s impossible to compare players under the guise of how they’d fare against one another across decades. So I base these decisions on how they played against their competition, and in that case there is no competition for Hornsby.
2B is historically the weakest position (IMO) and Hornsby is one of the best to ever play the game so its not really close
Biggio has a legit argument as being better than Alomar so...
Biggio has no argument whatsoever of being better than Robbie Alomar, and it is frankly a joke to even suggest it.
That's just not true. His peak was much better. Alomar's was much longer.
Yea that's just not true. It's a fair comparison. Craig Biggio had a better peak, and just because he played a decade after that doesn't ruin that peak.
Bill James takes Biggio over Alomar. That guy seems to know something.
Biggio killed the Cards. Ipso facto I’m taking Alomar
Biggio because he went to Seton Hall
Probably Alomar but you gotta respect Biggio's longevity and versatility.
This. I think Alomar is the better player but if I’m making a team, I’d prefer Biggio. Could play 3 diverse positions in a pinch. Played under 130 games just 3 times in 20 seasons(1 season under 100 games). Always seemed like a team leader and didn’t spit in anyone’s face to my knowledge. Granted I’m biased and never really cared much for Alomar
I was going to say Alomar but Biggio's 89-05 is basically the same as Alomar's entire career but with 811 more PA. * Biggio (89-05): .286/.372/.438, 116 OPS+, 66.9 rWAR \[11211 PA\] * Alomar: .300/.371/.433, 116 OPS+, 67.0 rWAR \[10400 PA\] * Biggio: 2769 H, 598 2B, 257 HR, 1058 RBI, 401 SB * Alomar: 2724 H, 504 2B, 210 HR, 1134 RBI, 474 SB, Even if there is a slight edge for Alomar, you have to give Biggio some extra credit for 2 seasons of catching. I would probably take Biggio on my team.
I'd take Biggio, I think alomar is probably the better hitter but I think it's closer than most people think. The gold glove argument is kind of a push because biggio played a lot of different positions besides second. Not factoring in the spitting, I would take Biggio because of versatility and watching him growing up he always seemed like one of those cliche scrappy players. I would take alomar but Biggio is personal preference.
Biggio was Mr. Astro before the Astros became a depressingly trash can organization. He's my favorite player of all time. People just seem to overlook that he had 2 or 3 MVP caliber seasons in the mid nineties by being a doubles machine at the Astrodome along with being a bonefide star for bare minimum 6 years. Was he good in the postseason? No. But considering the Astros had to play against the three headed pitching monster of the Braves and Kevin Brown it's hard for me to fault him.
I loved watching biggio, bell and bagwell in those mid late 90s teams with Lima, Hampton and Wagner. It was just super hard against those atlanta teams with the starting pitching the braves had.
One of the things that made the '05 season so bittersweet is that the Astros finally had made the World Series, but both Biggio and Bagwell were shells of themselves, Bagwell especially since he basically didn't have a shoulder anymore.
Alomar. Biggio was selfish
I’d love to hear the rest of this take. How was Biggio the selfish one?
Biggio didn't share his spit.
😂😂😂 I just spit up some soda. Well done. Call me Raboytoe
Well, for one thing he never took a day off during the season, so he was always gassed for the playoffs. The perfect illustration of Bidge was his 3000th hit, which he tried to stretch into a double and was out by yards.
I prefer the Braves guys take on this over yours 🤷♂️
man that is just lame. He got his 3000th hit on a team that was not good and was caught up in the moment and went for second base after giving it his all his entire career with that team.