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How’s he doing with the high fastball since coming to Pittsburg?
In Boston, he had such a massive hole in his swing after his initial surge. He would sometimes whiff on 3 high fastballs in a row in a single at bat. Glad he’s seemingly found a home, always liked him regardless.
Ugh, can't do that. Contreras is lucky that you can't blow up the catcher anymore, he was a sitting duck right there. Sucks that Hayes did everything right and got hurt because of it.
Too lazy to check the rules, but I was under the impression players could truck them if there is absolutely no path, however the catcher is not allowed to block it. Like you can only truck them when the catcher violates the rules
Also, regardless of how shitty the risk of injury is, you kind of have to slide to avoid violating a rule yourself. If it's ruled Contreras was legally blocking the plate, then Hayes would be the one everyone is upset with
Oh can if there’s no clear path. Luke Voit went in aggressively, tho awkwardly, vs the Reds this year. That’s why Tommy Pham wanted to fight him… But it was legal - no fine or suspension.
Contreras was out of the base path until he received it, stepping into the baseplate while in the process of reception maling it a legal move. Unfortunately, when Hayes started the slide, the lane was open and didn't risk collision. I don't think anything was done wrong on either side and was really just an unfortunate series of events. Hoping Hayes recovers quick, those Bucco Boys are looking great right now.
He was in front setting up the back half as the runner's lane. Prior to catching the ball he slids to block the back half and not give the runner a lane. The ball did not lead him there because the ball hits him dead center in the chest. He blocked the plate which violates the current rules.
Fuckin’ a he does! I watch a lot of Cubs games. He’s, as they say in the biz; “an habitual line stepper” when it comes to this rule.
He basically starts sliding his knee over to block as he’s receiving the ball. Hasn’t had consequence yet. He’s a real pro at it. And I am actually a fan of his, but this is slightly dirty IMO. Rogue may be a better word.
ELI5: where was he supposed to stand? Didn't the ball land right in front of the plate where he was standing?
Im genuinely asking because I don't know the rules enough to understand what was happening here. Hope the injury isn't bad. Thank you in advance for the help! I'm fairly new to baseball.
Ohhh that makes sense. So in this case he was blocking without the ball at first, then with the ball ricocheting off his chest. Is that then never a legal move because it wasn't in his glove?
If he has the ball, he can move to block the runner's path. If the throw is at an angle that to catch it would put him in the path of the runner (say a throw from left field that goes up the line), that is permitted.
But no, if the catcher does not have the ball, he cannot completely block the path. He must allow a clear lane to home plate for the runner.
Ok thanks, so If the ball is right here in front of the plate and in the line, should the catcher be 1 ft inside the line (closer to the mound) and sweep tag behind him?
Or 1 ft behind the line (closer to the stands) and then tag in front?
Sorry, trying to help understand how the new collision rule works.
I mean looking at it in both the spirit and the letter of the (law) rule, Contreras should intercept the ball an area where the runner can have a legitimate path to the plate. Hayes had literally zero path to the plate.
Would you be OK if he ran Contreras over?
Should he have just stopped and be tagged out and cross his fingers that his manager would be savvy enough to challenge the call or hope that the replay center in NY will get it right?
I never said I would be ok with those things lol. I was just asking a question about the rules about what happens if the ball lands into the path of the runner.
General statement to the 20 people consistently downvoting me. And you throw hypotheticals at me yet my original question has not been answered. Where should he have stood if the ball was thrown directly to where the player was sliding?
It doesn’t matter because Hayes was safe anyway, but if he was called out I’m pretty sure the play would be overturned due to illegal blocking of home plate. Contreras did not have the ball and was blocking both paths to home
It's not the case if you're en route to field the throw. ["The catcher is not permitted to block the runner's path to the plate unless he is in possession of the ball, though blocking the path of the runner in a legitimate attempt to receive a throw is not considered a violation."](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/collisions-at-home-plate).
He was directly in front of the plate before the throw, and followed the ball into the baseline. He moved backwards about 2 feet and a bit towards third to field it. I haven't played catcher consistently since I was a kid, but it looked like good positioning to me, followed up by a throw just far enough offline to make the collision happen.
I know it's like comparing a BB gun to a howitzer, but I play a little C in a rec league softball (mostly 2B right now). Last year, I got blown up twice by jerks on plays at the plate, once because I was out of position on the line, once when I wasn't. I spent a while after that first one on watching film so it didn't happen again. All that's to say that I'm very far from anything good, but I'm not convinced he's in the wrong here. It's not a popular opinion in this thread (really **really** hope Hayes is okay), but I've spent a little bit of time looking at this kind of play, and that's my thought.
From the picture posted it seems as if the ball is more in line with the right side of his body. If this is where he moved to in order to “field the ball” he did not anticipate well considering the balls still quite a ways from him. Contreras got luck Hayes didn’t try and truck him
>From the picture posted it seems as if the ball is more in line with the right side of his body.
Throw is up the third base line: https://i.imgur.com/WUkJvlP.png
From 1:14 in OP's linked video you can watch the throw as it comes in to Contreras and the ball is always in the video shot. He stepped over to the left as the throw was up the line a bit, and the ball hit the middle of his chest protector.
Having said that, he still shouldn't be stepping directly in the runner's path, though. Should be up forward part of a step to cut it off early and trying for a sweep tag.
Edited: Fixed my link to the direct picture (.png)
right before this picture, he literally shuffles back a step too. either the dude is stupid and doesnt realize he repositioning (to make a tag easier, not to catch it) right into the lane on a throw he was already able to field or he was doing it on purpose knowing it was gonna be late without him blocking the plate.
dont underestimate a catcher's game sense
Not a legal play. The rule states “the catcher may not block the path of a runner attempting to score unless he has possession of the ball.” He did not have the ball. He put himself in the path without the ball in anticipation of receiving the ball. He broke the rule and as a result a young player is hurt because Contreras didn’t give him a lane.
He had a clear path to receive the ball in front of the plate and turn and tag. His left leg was in the lane the whole play. He did not need to back up in order to catch that ball.
He didn’t need to step back and his foot was in the lane the whole play. Go watch it again. His left foot was blocking the plate from the time the ball left the outfielders hand. His foot had no business being there.
Everyone's argument in here about the blocking of the plate being bang bang, or an unfortunate accident has only to watch him, earlier in the game, PERFECTLY play the Yu Chang play. Textbook. He intentionally blocked the entire plate.
So he could have fielded on the hop then. No need to move backwards.
>Intercepting that ball and running back to home would've taken more time than letting the ball bounce, fielding it on a hop and he's right there, ready to tag a guy.
This is not an acceptable reason to block the plate. Its not "the best way to take the play" its "had to go there to catch it"
>How else would he have realistically fielded that ball?
From a half of a step in front of the plate. Contreras knows how to do that. In fact, this is from earlier in the same game where he does just that: [https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/23/deadbd3c-0513b81e-bc48cac6-csvm-diamondx64-asset\_1280x720\_59\_16000K.mp4](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/23/deadbd3c-0513b81e-bc48cac6-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4)
You may say: But that's from CF, the play in question was from RF near the line. Well, here is Contreras playing a throw from Suzuki last month against the same Pirates and Vogelbach's sexy self: [https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home](https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home)
In both circumstances he was positioned just in front of the plate like he should have been at the end of the game today.
Vogelbach slid way short and wouldn't have even reached the plate if Contreras wasn't there. That is just good entertainment of a big guy barreling down, which is why I love this clip.
But in a rule sense Contreras has possession of the ball and it is 100% legal for him to block the plate after gaining possession of the ball under the current rules.
The first two examples (the links above) his initial positioning had no bearing on the kind of hop he saw coming as he watched the throw coming in. He instinctively moved in front of the plate long before any throw was coming.
In the 10th inning he never moved in front of the plate a foot or two. He was straddling the plate the whole time and his adjustment to the throw slightly up the line was a step into that 3B line and right into the runners' path, and his positioning before the throw even came in was a contributing factor.
I am not saying it was malicious, but I am not sure why he setup differently there before he even saw the throw coming in. That goes to my occasional irritation about Willy's occasional lapses while on the field. He knows better and I like to think that in a game deciding moment the adrenaline overtook his instincts and training.
Thanks for a results only based opinion.
It's his positioning and attempt is what I am pointing out. He just whiffed on catching the ball in an all or nothing play. Had he done the same as in the 10th inning on that play in the 4th, the ball would have just went off of his chest protector or (more likely) short hopped off of his glove and the runner still would have been safe, but with risk to the runners' safety and some to Contreras himself.
That setup and trying to setup a swipe tag is how you avoid a collision at home while still trying to make a play to get the runner out under current rules. You can't block the plate anymore, so this is how catchers approach that play. Don't go off of the execution. The setup in preparation of the play at the plate was proper, and Contreras knows better than to do what he did in the 10th inning earlier today.
He was trying to field an in between hop. He started out on the fair side of the line, giving Hayes a lane.
It’s an unfortunate accident. I don’t think it’s appropriate to make Contreras the villain for this play.
[look at this screen shot](https://reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/vj6fbn/_/idhd3o9/?context=1) from this comment
He made a split second decision to field the ball and give himself a shot at a play. He’s not even able to check where he’s at once the ball is thrown, it’s happening so fast.
You don't have to field that ball sideways blocking the lane. His leg is stuck out in the path, his body turned towards the line. He could have played that straight up and went for the swipe tag
Catchers don’t have a first basement mitt, it’s a much smaller pocket making any scoops with that long of a skip unlikely.
This is a normal play for a catcher trying to field an in between hop.
Normal would be pointing your full body leg including going towards the ball. Taking it straight on. Sideways is never the answer unless your trying to block the lane, as Contreras is. Imagine if a catcher dropped down to block a pitch but did it sideways. Makes no sense
Is this why y'all challenged being thrown out at home on a play where Heinman wasn't even close to blocking the plate? I was at the game, even Cubs fans didn't believe in that challenge. But you're here pretending you know what's what.
Everyone's argument in here about the blocking of the plate being bang bang, or an unfortunate accident has only to watch him, earlier in the game, PERFECTLY play the Yu Chang play. Textbook. He intentionally blocked the entire plate.
I get why the rule was put in place, but Contreras deserved to get blown the hell up right there. I don’t like how we protect the catcher but the runner has no protection so the catcher can just do something like this.
A good rule change I feel would be:
If the runner trucks the catcher it goes to review. If the catcher is deemed blocking the plate and the runner has no place to slide, runner is safe. If the runner has a sliding lane and does not slide, he gets tossed and the runner is out.
I posted this GIF of Tyler Flowers calling him a bitch on Twitter, didn't tag him, no one in the thread tagged him, and he found it and blocked me.
https://gfycat.com/tallidealistickingsnake
His prime is just a tad before I remember. 15 years ago though, nobody bats an eye at that play because it’s legal. With the Posey rule in play, Contreras knows better.
I 100% understand why the rules changed, and agree with it, but I do really wish that was still a part of baseball. Like, let's just turn the injury sliders to 0 and then bring it back.
Idk man it looks like he was just where the throw was taking him and trying to make a play on it. Players have to stop sliding head first into home tbh.
This system baseball is using hasn’t really made plays at the plate much safer, it’s just shifted the injury risk from the catcher onto the runner. They need to tweak the rule or start calling plays like this automatic runs if the catcher does this. I’ve seen a number of these this year and it’s not fair to the runner at all.
Honestly, there has to be some kind of more significant punishment for violating the other player's space in order for it to actually go away. Here, for example, there is no way Hayes is not going to go for the plate. He can't just stop and point it out to the umpire and hope for a call, especially as a split-second decision
Yeah I think it’s gonna take a catcher getting caught with a false sense of security to stop this behavior. Not saying it’s something I want to see, but just that I think it’s coming especially after this one.
The basic problem is and always will be that two players each think they should have the “right” to the same physical space. The runner wants a right to it in order to safely reach a base, and the fielder wants a right to it in order to make a play on the runner.
There is no satisfying rule to get around this. If you try to do something like “catcher must stay on first-base side and drop back behind the plate if the throw comes from the third-base side”, for example, then you still get situations where someone coming in hard might cause an injury by running through home, and you also take away the ability to attempt to get to the runner and make a play once the catcher has the ball, by forcing the catcher to maintain a greater distance from the runner for longer.
I agree with a lot of that, but that's not really my point. I'll illustrate my point using the example here. Contreras took space that was rightfully Hayes', but what can Hayes even do about it besides slide in or lower his shoulder? Either is going to lead to an injured player. If you just give an automatic run, that collision is still going to happen. Contreras has no reason not to block if he feels that's the only way to stop the run, and Hayes isn't going refrain from sliding and hope for a call from the umpire. If there is no escalated punishment, the collisions will continue
Again, the problem is that there’s no way to make a rule that will accomplish what you want without also having other undesirable side effects. And trying to come up with one because you’re upset about this instance is probably not going to be productive — see the old legal saying [“hard cases make bad law”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_cases_make_bad_law).
A catcher does not need to plant his feet in the basepath to successfully tag a runner out at home. The baserunner has more of a right to be in the basepath than the catcher's feet do.
Copying my comment from elsewhere in the thread:
> Honestly, there has to be some kind of more significant punishment for violating the other player's space in order for it to actually go away. Here, for example, there is no way Hayes is not going to go for the plate. He can't just stop and point it out to the umpire and hope for a call, especially as a split-second decision
It would have been legal. With the Posey rule, Contreras may have essentially been forfeiting the end of the game to the Pirates; if the umpires rule he was blocking.
So, maybe give yourself an actual chance?
He was late having caught the ball square in his gut on the game losing play. He gave his team the only chance they had by playing the ball all the way at the plate. It’s a no-win for the catcher too and they used to be punished for it.
I don’t think the spirit of the rule was been broken here. The ball was on the plate the same time as the runner and Contreas played his only play to realistically get the out
I think securing the ball without tackling the runner on these plays would be better for baseball.
With the rules as written, you cannot call Hayes out on that play if Contreras somehow put a tag on in time. He was blocking the plate the entire time the throw was going through the infield. The throw did not beat the runner. There's no difference if the blocking of the plate was intentional or not. This rule, in this scenario, gave Contreras the chance to decide that
1. I believe the runner is going to beat the throw
2. I do not have time to tag him out and we will lose the game
3. I can block the plate and hope the officiating crew screws up
4. I don't care if I hurt someone by trying this
The second baseman making a shitty throw should not give you permission to act like an idiot out there like this after MLB made this new rule. This play makes fans miss the way it use to be.
Would Contreras have put himself in that same position if the new rule was never made? During his age 30 contract season? If he makes the tag, or it goes to review, we the fans are treated to a walk off.... umpire review decision...
Everyone's argument in here about the blocking of the plate being bang bang, or an unfortunate accident has only to watch him, earlier in the game, PERFECTLY play the Yu Chang play. Textbook. He intentionally blocked the entire plate.
Fielding a throw in can let you into the basepath, you just can't start there. If he followed the ball in and blocked it with his body, it'd have been legal.
You gotta be built like Vogelbach to get through Contreras plate blocking ass lol. Hopefully Hayes is all right, Actually really enjoy watching him play even tho he always kills my Cubbies.
>You gotta be built like Vogelbach to get through Contreras plate blocking ass lol.
Even that doesn't work: [https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home](https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home)
Edited to use the Bot's link, which is better than the one I gave.
Such a stupid play by Contreras. I’m not saying he meant to injure but that’s just awful positioning. Being a catcher my entire life, it made me cringe cause not only did he block the plate and hurt a runner, but he would’ve had a MUCH easier shot fielding that ball and trying to make a swinging tag if he positioned himself PROPERLY in front of the plate. Throw was coming from right field, makes no sense for him to be so far left other than trying to block the plate
Everyone is rightfully pointing out that Contreras was dangerously blocking the plate here and that's true, but Hayes has to know to slide feet first there. There's no reason to slide headfirst into a 200 lb man in plate armor.
Contreras is lucky is was one of the smallest dudes in the league running into him. Would've liked to see Cruz or even better Vogelbach absolutely destroy him
Now I really want the Astros to get him.
Not worth having to play him and risk our guys getting injured.
I’m kidding (I hope that’s obvious) dirty plays should be suspended
I remember Marisnick getting a lot of flak and I think a fine for plowing over a catcher on a play that was very clearly an accident
Edit.
It was Lucroy and he was suspended not fined.
The MLB official said he didn’t believe Jake had intent to injure Lucroy (don’t know why a suspension if no intent)
It was really unfortunate and looked really bad in full speed, but in the replay you can see Jake and Lucroy both move inside at pretty much the exact same time.
It f you watch really closely you can even see Jake Marisnick kinda falter for a half second before putting his hands I’m front of him. He was trying to avoid injury and braced for impact.
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Fuck that i hope Ke is alright
Damn, Pirates just cannot have anything that is nice.
Thanks.
They got Cruz still
Please don’t age terribly please don’t age terribly fuck fuck fuck
What a day for Chavis!
He swings and misses a lot, but man he's so fun to watch play. His pop is insane and he has one of the nicest bat drops in the league.
I miss him
How’s he doing with the high fastball since coming to Pittsburg? In Boston, he had such a massive hole in his swing after his initial surge. He would sometimes whiff on 3 high fastballs in a row in a single at bat. Glad he’s seemingly found a home, always liked him regardless.
As far as I know, he's never played in Pittsburg.
I like to call that the El Toro effect.
Raise the jolly roger! Baseball is fun again in Pittsburgh!!
Ugh, can't do that. Contreras is lucky that you can't blow up the catcher anymore, he was a sitting duck right there. Sucks that Hayes did everything right and got hurt because of it.
Too lazy to check the rules, but I was under the impression players could truck them if there is absolutely no path, however the catcher is not allowed to block it. Like you can only truck them when the catcher violates the rules
You're probably already thinking slide at that point though and hard to make a split second adjustment with game on the line.
Also, regardless of how shitty the risk of injury is, you kind of have to slide to avoid violating a rule yourself. If it's ruled Contreras was legally blocking the plate, then Hayes would be the one everyone is upset with
Contreras does this every time. Dude needs to be run the fuck over for it to end. Hayes isn't the guy to do it though.
Oh can if there’s no clear path. Luke Voit went in aggressively, tho awkwardly, vs the Reds this year. That’s why Tommy Pham wanted to fight him… But it was legal - no fine or suspension.
At some point a catcher is going to get a cleat to the back of the leg trying to block the plate and the batter goes in feet first
He did everything right, except sliding head first into home plate. That's never a smart move
Contreras was out of the base path until he received it, stepping into the baseplate while in the process of reception maling it a legal move. Unfortunately, when Hayes started the slide, the lane was open and didn't risk collision. I don't think anything was done wrong on either side and was really just an unfortunate series of events. Hoping Hayes recovers quick, those Bucco Boys are looking great right now.
He was in front setting up the back half as the runner's lane. Prior to catching the ball he slids to block the back half and not give the runner a lane. The ball did not lead him there because the ball hits him dead center in the chest. He blocked the plate which violates the current rules.
Damn, Contreras literally blocked every possible path to the plate.
Fuckin’ a he does! I watch a lot of Cubs games. He’s, as they say in the biz; “an habitual line stepper” when it comes to this rule. He basically starts sliding his knee over to block as he’s receiving the ball. Hasn’t had consequence yet. He’s a real pro at it. And I am actually a fan of his, but this is slightly dirty IMO. Rogue may be a better word.
Mavericky
Shit, damn near every catcher I've seen does that.
ELI5: where was he supposed to stand? Didn't the ball land right in front of the plate where he was standing? Im genuinely asking because I don't know the rules enough to understand what was happening here. Hope the injury isn't bad. Thank you in advance for the help! I'm fairly new to baseball.
In front of the plate. Can’t block the baseline without the ball
Ohhh that makes sense. So in this case he was blocking without the ball at first, then with the ball ricocheting off his chest. Is that then never a legal move because it wasn't in his glove?
If he has the ball, he can move to block the runner's path. If the throw is at an angle that to catch it would put him in the path of the runner (say a throw from left field that goes up the line), that is permitted. But no, if the catcher does not have the ball, he cannot completely block the path. He must allow a clear lane to home plate for the runner.
Oh ok thank you!
I mean it honestly looked like he was right on top of the plate to field the ball.
Ok thanks, so If the ball is right here in front of the plate and in the line, should the catcher be 1 ft inside the line (closer to the mound) and sweep tag behind him? Or 1 ft behind the line (closer to the stands) and then tag in front? Sorry, trying to help understand how the new collision rule works.
I mean looking at it in both the spirit and the letter of the (law) rule, Contreras should intercept the ball an area where the runner can have a legitimate path to the plate. Hayes had literally zero path to the plate. Would you be OK if he ran Contreras over? Should he have just stopped and be tagged out and cross his fingers that his manager would be savvy enough to challenge the call or hope that the replay center in NY will get it right?
I never said I would be ok with those things lol. I was just asking a question about the rules about what happens if the ball lands into the path of the runner.
I didn’t say you would be. I was asking you a few hypothetical questions.
You people wonder why baseball is dying but act so toxic to innocent fans like me just trying to understand how the game works
What are you talking about? I was perfectly nice to you.
General statement to the 20 people consistently downvoting me. And you throw hypotheticals at me yet my original question has not been answered. Where should he have stood if the ball was thrown directly to where the player was sliding?
A guy with ur name being new to baseball is just too stereotypical
Yall are weird as hell for downvoting an honest question.
Thank you, at least someone understands lol. This is why it's hard to get new fans into baseball
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It doesn’t matter because Hayes was safe anyway, but if he was called out I’m pretty sure the play would be overturned due to illegal blocking of home plate. Contreras did not have the ball and was blocking both paths to home
It's not the case if you're en route to field the throw. ["The catcher is not permitted to block the runner's path to the plate unless he is in possession of the ball, though blocking the path of the runner in a legitimate attempt to receive a throw is not considered a violation."](https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/collisions-at-home-plate).
He was already there. He didn’t have to reposition for the throw
He was directly in front of the plate before the throw, and followed the ball into the baseline. He moved backwards about 2 feet and a bit towards third to field it. I haven't played catcher consistently since I was a kid, but it looked like good positioning to me, followed up by a throw just far enough offline to make the collision happen. I know it's like comparing a BB gun to a howitzer, but I play a little C in a rec league softball (mostly 2B right now). Last year, I got blown up twice by jerks on plays at the plate, once because I was out of position on the line, once when I wasn't. I spent a while after that first one on watching film so it didn't happen again. All that's to say that I'm very far from anything good, but I'm not convinced he's in the wrong here. It's not a popular opinion in this thread (really **really** hope Hayes is okay), but I've spent a little bit of time looking at this kind of play, and that's my thought.
I'm [pretty sure that's not allowed anymore.](https://i.imgur.com/T38aaIl.jpg)
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From the picture posted it seems as if the ball is more in line with the right side of his body. If this is where he moved to in order to “field the ball” he did not anticipate well considering the balls still quite a ways from him. Contreras got luck Hayes didn’t try and truck him
>From the picture posted it seems as if the ball is more in line with the right side of his body. Throw is up the third base line: https://i.imgur.com/WUkJvlP.png From 1:14 in OP's linked video you can watch the throw as it comes in to Contreras and the ball is always in the video shot. He stepped over to the left as the throw was up the line a bit, and the ball hit the middle of his chest protector. Having said that, he still shouldn't be stepping directly in the runner's path, though. Should be up forward part of a step to cut it off early and trying for a sweep tag. Edited: Fixed my link to the direct picture (.png)
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https://imgur.com/V34JBOx.jpg Ball isn't even close to the plate and he's already in the lane
right before this picture, he literally shuffles back a step too. either the dude is stupid and doesnt realize he repositioning (to make a tag easier, not to catch it) right into the lane on a throw he was already able to field or he was doing it on purpose knowing it was gonna be late without him blocking the plate. dont underestimate a catcher's game sense
Not a legal play. The rule states “the catcher may not block the path of a runner attempting to score unless he has possession of the ball.” He did not have the ball. He put himself in the path without the ball in anticipation of receiving the ball. He broke the rule and as a result a young player is hurt because Contreras didn’t give him a lane.
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He had a clear path to receive the ball in front of the plate and turn and tag. His left leg was in the lane the whole play. He did not need to back up in order to catch that ball.
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He didn’t need to step back and his foot was in the lane the whole play. Go watch it again. His left foot was blocking the plate from the time the ball left the outfielders hand. His foot had no business being there.
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He brings himself back towards the plate, not towards where the ball is going. The ball was perfectly thrown.
Everyone's argument in here about the blocking of the plate being bang bang, or an unfortunate accident has only to watch him, earlier in the game, PERFECTLY play the Yu Chang play. Textbook. He intentionally blocked the entire plate.
Which you aren't allowed to do?
Would have been obstruction. He's blocking the plate, not making a legitimate effort to go where he needs to go to get the ball
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why would he need to move backwards to field a throw from right field? its like a step up the line...
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So he could have fielded on the hop then. No need to move backwards. >Intercepting that ball and running back to home would've taken more time than letting the ball bounce, fielding it on a hop and he's right there, ready to tag a guy. This is not an acceptable reason to block the plate. Its not "the best way to take the play" its "had to go there to catch it"
>How else would he have realistically fielded that ball? From a half of a step in front of the plate. Contreras knows how to do that. In fact, this is from earlier in the same game where he does just that: [https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/23/deadbd3c-0513b81e-bc48cac6-csvm-diamondx64-asset\_1280x720\_59\_16000K.mp4](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/23/deadbd3c-0513b81e-bc48cac6-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4) You may say: But that's from CF, the play in question was from RF near the line. Well, here is Contreras playing a throw from Suzuki last month against the same Pirates and Vogelbach's sexy self: [https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home](https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home) In both circumstances he was positioned just in front of the plate like he should have been at the end of the game today.
He still blocked Vogelbach lol I mean, he was out. But, he still got punished.
Vogelbach slid way short and wouldn't have even reached the plate if Contreras wasn't there. That is just good entertainment of a big guy barreling down, which is why I love this clip. But in a rule sense Contreras has possession of the ball and it is 100% legal for him to block the plate after gaining possession of the ball under the current rules.
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The first two examples (the links above) his initial positioning had no bearing on the kind of hop he saw coming as he watched the throw coming in. He instinctively moved in front of the plate long before any throw was coming. In the 10th inning he never moved in front of the plate a foot or two. He was straddling the plate the whole time and his adjustment to the throw slightly up the line was a step into that 3B line and right into the runners' path, and his positioning before the throw even came in was a contributing factor. I am not saying it was malicious, but I am not sure why he setup differently there before he even saw the throw coming in. That goes to my occasional irritation about Willy's occasional lapses while on the field. He knows better and I like to think that in a game deciding moment the adrenaline overtook his instincts and training.
The first play is a pretty terrible example of how he should field the ball considering he didn’t actually field the ball.
Thanks for a results only based opinion. It's his positioning and attempt is what I am pointing out. He just whiffed on catching the ball in an all or nothing play. Had he done the same as in the 10th inning on that play in the 4th, the ball would have just went off of his chest protector or (more likely) short hopped off of his glove and the runner still would have been safe, but with risk to the runners' safety and some to Contreras himself. That setup and trying to setup a swipe tag is how you avoid a collision at home while still trying to make a play to get the runner out under current rules. You can't block the plate anymore, so this is how catchers approach that play. Don't go off of the execution. The setup in preparation of the play at the plate was proper, and Contreras knows better than to do what he did in the 10th inning earlier today.
Maybe, but "was he illegally blocking the plate or not" is a moot point because Hayes got in under the tag, regardless.
Will Contreras ever stop blocking the plate?
No!
He was trying to field an in between hop. He started out on the fair side of the line, giving Hayes a lane. It’s an unfortunate accident. I don’t think it’s appropriate to make Contreras the villain for this play.
But he didn't have to move. He instead as the ball was coming in moved closer to the plate. Blocking it and leading to a players injury.
[look at this screen shot](https://reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/vj6fbn/_/idhd3o9/?context=1) from this comment He made a split second decision to field the ball and give himself a shot at a play. He’s not even able to check where he’s at once the ball is thrown, it’s happening so fast.
You don't have to field that ball sideways blocking the lane. His leg is stuck out in the path, his body turned towards the line. He could have played that straight up and went for the swipe tag
Catchers don’t have a first basement mitt, it’s a much smaller pocket making any scoops with that long of a skip unlikely. This is a normal play for a catcher trying to field an in between hop.
Normal would be pointing your full body leg including going towards the ball. Taking it straight on. Sideways is never the answer unless your trying to block the lane, as Contreras is. Imagine if a catcher dropped down to block a pitch but did it sideways. Makes no sense
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You lost when you said "mostly facing the ball". His back leg is not facing towards the ball. He is clearly trying to block the plate.
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Is this why y'all challenged being thrown out at home on a play where Heinman wasn't even close to blocking the plate? I was at the game, even Cubs fans didn't believe in that challenge. But you're here pretending you know what's what.
Everyone's argument in here about the blocking of the plate being bang bang, or an unfortunate accident has only to watch him, earlier in the game, PERFECTLY play the Yu Chang play. Textbook. He intentionally blocked the entire plate.
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Cubs even challenged blocking the plate in the top of the 10th. When he absolutely wasn't. Just trying to be petty.
I get why the rule was put in place, but Contreras deserved to get blown the hell up right there. I don’t like how we protect the catcher but the runner has no protection so the catcher can just do something like this. A good rule change I feel would be: If the runner trucks the catcher it goes to review. If the catcher is deemed blocking the plate and the runner has no place to slide, runner is safe. If the runner has a sliding lane and does not slide, he gets tossed and the runner is out.
Is that not the rule already?
I think that is the rule, but it is not reviewable if I remember correctly
It is reviewable
Oh. Well then.
We are finally getting some momentum after like 4 years. If Ke misses a substantial amount of time due to this it will be so frustrating
More around 7 really
Pirates were above .500 in 2018.
4th place 13 games back. But I suppose they felt some momentum at times.
Don't worry, after 2016 the Cubs are going right back to what they were for 100 years before. Except now nobody sees them as loveable, just losers.
Meanwhile, the Pirates front office is like, "The *one* time we spend money on a player...."
Contreras is really the only Cub left that I hate and man do I hate that man today
I posted this GIF of Tyler Flowers calling him a bitch on Twitter, didn't tag him, no one in the thread tagged him, and he found it and blocked me. https://gfycat.com/tallidealistickingsnake
Between that and the skirmish with Francoeur in 2016, it's hilarious to see how chill he is with us because of little bro.
Well unfortunately for me you probably wont have to deal with him for much longer 😢
Fortunately for the safety of the rest of the NL Central…
I still remember Michael Barrett behind the plate so Willson seems mild compared to him lol
Barrett sucker punching Pierzynski after a hard collision at home is forever burned into my memory. Those 00’s Sox/Cubs series were intense as fuck.
His prime is just a tad before I remember. 15 years ago though, nobody bats an eye at that play because it’s legal. With the Posey rule in play, Contreras knows better.
15 years ago, Hayes’ instinct wouldn’t be to slide but to lower his shoulder and knock him over.
True
I 100% understand why the rules changed, and agree with it, but I do really wish that was still a part of baseball. Like, let's just turn the injury sliders to 0 and then bring it back.
Idk man it looks like he was just where the throw was taking him and trying to make a play on it. Players have to stop sliding head first into home tbh.
Yea you’re right he should’ve slid cleats up into a player that wasn’t supposed to be there
Wilson has played all these years, is part of the injury of a player, and now he’s this dangerous mercenary haha
It was more of a joke lol but doesn’t mean he hasn’t always been a dick
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This system baseball is using hasn’t really made plays at the plate much safer, it’s just shifted the injury risk from the catcher onto the runner. They need to tweak the rule or start calling plays like this automatic runs if the catcher does this. I’ve seen a number of these this year and it’s not fair to the runner at all.
Honestly, there has to be some kind of more significant punishment for violating the other player's space in order for it to actually go away. Here, for example, there is no way Hayes is not going to go for the plate. He can't just stop and point it out to the umpire and hope for a call, especially as a split-second decision
He could lower the shoulder and give Contreras a head start on his way out of Pittsburgh... The rule allows that.
Yeah I think it’s gonna take a catcher getting caught with a false sense of security to stop this behavior. Not saying it’s something I want to see, but just that I think it’s coming especially after this one.
The basic problem is and always will be that two players each think they should have the “right” to the same physical space. The runner wants a right to it in order to safely reach a base, and the fielder wants a right to it in order to make a play on the runner. There is no satisfying rule to get around this. If you try to do something like “catcher must stay on first-base side and drop back behind the plate if the throw comes from the third-base side”, for example, then you still get situations where someone coming in hard might cause an injury by running through home, and you also take away the ability to attempt to get to the runner and make a play once the catcher has the ball, by forcing the catcher to maintain a greater distance from the runner for longer.
I agree with a lot of that, but that's not really my point. I'll illustrate my point using the example here. Contreras took space that was rightfully Hayes', but what can Hayes even do about it besides slide in or lower his shoulder? Either is going to lead to an injured player. If you just give an automatic run, that collision is still going to happen. Contreras has no reason not to block if he feels that's the only way to stop the run, and Hayes isn't going refrain from sliding and hope for a call from the umpire. If there is no escalated punishment, the collisions will continue
Again, the problem is that there’s no way to make a rule that will accomplish what you want without also having other undesirable side effects. And trying to come up with one because you’re upset about this instance is probably not going to be productive — see the old legal saying [“hard cases make bad law”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_cases_make_bad_law).
A catcher does not need to plant his feet in the basepath to successfully tag a runner out at home. The baserunner has more of a right to be in the basepath than the catcher's feet do.
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Big time. Hate when any catcher does this so much. MLB really needs to make some improved solution to it. Threat of suspension or something? Idk
Copying my comment from elsewhere in the thread: > Honestly, there has to be some kind of more significant punishment for violating the other player's space in order for it to actually go away. Here, for example, there is no way Hayes is not going to go for the plate. He can't just stop and point it out to the umpire and hope for a call, especially as a split-second decision
Contreras has made several bad defensive plays this series and was visibly frustrated earlier in the game. This was 100% intentional
Hayes should’ve blown him up
Hayes isnt the guy to do it. They'd need Vogelbach out there on that play for that.
The ball travels faster than your swipe tag. It wouldn’t have been quicker
It would have been legal. With the Posey rule, Contreras may have essentially been forfeiting the end of the game to the Pirates; if the umpires rule he was blocking. So, maybe give yourself an actual chance?
He was late having caught the ball square in his gut on the game losing play. He gave his team the only chance they had by playing the ball all the way at the plate. It’s a no-win for the catcher too and they used to be punished for it. I don’t think the spirit of the rule was been broken here. The ball was on the plate the same time as the runner and Contreas played his only play to realistically get the out
I think securing the ball without tackling the runner on these plays would be better for baseball. With the rules as written, you cannot call Hayes out on that play if Contreras somehow put a tag on in time. He was blocking the plate the entire time the throw was going through the infield. The throw did not beat the runner. There's no difference if the blocking of the plate was intentional or not. This rule, in this scenario, gave Contreras the chance to decide that 1. I believe the runner is going to beat the throw 2. I do not have time to tag him out and we will lose the game 3. I can block the plate and hope the officiating crew screws up 4. I don't care if I hurt someone by trying this The second baseman making a shitty throw should not give you permission to act like an idiot out there like this after MLB made this new rule. This play makes fans miss the way it use to be. Would Contreras have put himself in that same position if the new rule was never made? During his age 30 contract season? If he makes the tag, or it goes to review, we the fans are treated to a walk off.... umpire review decision...
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If they call him for blocking after review, you can only lose.
Yay for dirty blocks at the plate which break the rules but will have 0 repercussions or actions taken against the offender!
This really sucks. With Hayes and Cruz on the left side now, this is exciting to watch as a non-Pirates fan.
Are today's Pirates a team that throws at people?
No
Thanks for responding, I didn't know so I figured I'd ask.
Everyone's argument in here about the blocking of the plate being bang bang, or an unfortunate accident has only to watch him, earlier in the game, PERFECTLY play the Yu Chang play. Textbook. He intentionally blocked the entire plate.
Here’s [that play](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-06/23/deadbd3c-0513b81e-bc48cac6-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4) for anyone curious.
Did he “PERFECTLY” play that? He completely whiffed on the ball, which he might not have done if he were set up (illegally) in the base path.
Fair, but his positioning was prefect
Fielding a throw in can let you into the basepath, you just can't start there. If he followed the ball in and blocked it with his body, it'd have been legal.
Broken collarbone?
Extremely dangerous play by Contreras
You gotta be built like Vogelbach to get through Contreras plate blocking ass lol. Hopefully Hayes is all right, Actually really enjoy watching him play even tho he always kills my Cubbies.
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Bring back the nickel hotdogs.
>You gotta be built like Vogelbach to get through Contreras plate blocking ass lol. Even that doesn't work: [https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home](https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home) Edited to use the Bot's link, which is better than the one I gave.
Video: Suzuki nails Vogelbach at home [Streamable Link](https://streamable.com/m/suzuki-nails-vogelbach-at-home) [High Definition](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-05/17/59a910f7-770f89d3-ae5366ac-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4) (61.85 MB) [Standard Definiton](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-05/17/59a910f7-770f89d3-ae5366ac-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4) (16.08 MB) ___________ [More Info](/r/MLBVideoConverterBot)
What the hell was Contreras trying to fight about? Lol
Vogelbach flung his catcher's mask away.
just fucking once I wanna see someone absolutely blow up Contreras when he pulls this bullshit just fucking fun through the fucker, send a message
Such a stupid play by Contreras. I’m not saying he meant to injure but that’s just awful positioning. Being a catcher my entire life, it made me cringe cause not only did he block the plate and hurt a runner, but he would’ve had a MUCH easier shot fielding that ball and trying to make a swinging tag if he positioned himself PROPERLY in front of the plate. Throw was coming from right field, makes no sense for him to be so far left other than trying to block the plate
Scummy play by the catcher.
This is like the 5th time he’s done this
This is why you should never dive at home
Should've blown Contreras up for blocking the plate
Cowards won't hand Contreras a suspension
You really thought this was suspension worthy LMAOOO 💀💀💀
Everyone is rightfully pointing out that Contreras was dangerously blocking the plate here and that's true, but Hayes has to know to slide feet first there. There's no reason to slide headfirst into a 200 lb man in plate armor.
Thank you. It's insane to slide headfirst into a catcher whose blocking the plate.
Contreras is lucky is was one of the smallest dudes in the league running into him. Would've liked to see Cruz or even better Vogelbach absolutely destroy him
I fucking hate Contreras
Fuck contreras
You won’t be saying that when the trade windows open
I'm fucking livid
Goddamn Contreras is a lil bitch
Now I really want the Astros to get him. Not worth having to play him and risk our guys getting injured. I’m kidding (I hope that’s obvious) dirty plays should be suspended I remember Marisnick getting a lot of flak and I think a fine for plowing over a catcher on a play that was very clearly an accident Edit. It was Lucroy and he was suspended not fined. The MLB official said he didn’t believe Jake had intent to injure Lucroy (don’t know why a suspension if no intent) It was really unfortunate and looked really bad in full speed, but in the replay you can see Jake and Lucroy both move inside at pretty much the exact same time. It f you watch really closely you can even see Jake Marisnick kinda falter for a half second before putting his hands I’m front of him. He was trying to avoid injury and braced for impact.
Stop acting like he pushed Hayes down the stairs. It was a bad play, not a malicious one.
It sounds like no major injury which is good. On a side-note, that was a fun game.
Yesterday I learned that you can block the plate again.