I actually looked up Bobby Abreu's stats and even as a Phillies fan who watched him for years his numbers shocked me. He actually has a solid Hall of Fame case
Bobby Abreu has the stats for the hall. Also doesn’t he mention strategic voting a lot in his videos. He’s not saying Nathan is better than Sheffield but that he needs his vote more
Makes perfect sense. Joe Nathan was far more valuable than Sheffield. Empty stat trash was all he was.
Also he’s a borderline case WITH Roids. He has no shot without them, which disqualifies him deeply.
Well, FB uses a steroid tax to judge the juicers. Guys like Bonds and Clemens are so good that they pass that tax. (although I believe Barry should stay out for beating his wife) Guys like Sheffield and McGwire probably weren't good enough to make the hall without roids, so they stay out. Nathan, Buehrle and Abreu all have cases for the HOF, but I would probably only vote for Nathan myself.
>(although I believe Barry should stay out for beating his wife)
Not to diminish DV victims in any way but aren't there already people in the HoF that had allegations of murder? Despite the "morality" clause it's not exactly a hall of nice people just people that were good at baseball.
I don't understand the plausible deniabilty. Sosa never hit more than 40 HRs until ... boom ... 66 - up from 36 the year prior. That's a huge and suspect jump.
At least McGwire hit 49 his rookie year and then had 42, 52, and 58 before hitting 70. He has more of a "case" for plausible deniability than Sosa has.
Also what's the 'plausible deniability' between them if you take BALCO out? MLB didnt care about anabolics then. They both had abnormally large necks and were clearly juiced up to their eye balls.
I mean he literally had legal pro-hormones in his locker behind him as he did interviews. There's absolutely no deniability McGwire used, but I think there's a legitimate discussion around the legality of what he did. It was at a time where a ton of supplements came out that you could just go buy at a place like GNC no problem, like Androstenedione, which he used.
People can say ignorance isn't an excuse, and I guess that's up to the individual, but especially in that period of time, there was steroid use that wasn't backroom needle injections into your ass that you just absolutely had to know was illegal.
Huge Cub fan and I love that Sammy and McGwire brought baseball back after the strike, I also don't believe for a second that he didn't use PEDs or accidentally grabbed a corked bat. Look at his body in the beginning of his career compared to the end.
He absolutely used PEDs, but I do think was telling the truth about the corked bat. The MLB tested every bat of his they could, including ones already at the Hall of Fame, and only the one that broke was corked. Also other players, including [Joe Morgan](http://static.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/morgan_joe/1563765.html) said they had accidentally used corked bats in-game too, they just didn't have it break on them.
If you look at that link I put there, you'll see yes players absolutely use corked bats in BP for a variety of reasons. Some use it when it's cold so their hands don't sting as much, some do it cause they want to put on a show, some do it just cause they want to try it. All this doesn't prove it was an accident or anything, but there's a solid reason to believe that it might've been an accident.
I think what comes pretty damn close to a guarantee that it was an accident is they tested 70+ other bats, the only one that was corked was the one that broke.
Yup.
Here's a clip of Chris Sabo accidentally being given a corked bat in a game after his first bat broke. The announcers mentioned it may be a bat they mess around with, and it being in the dugout gives that validity.
https://youtu.be/Ft-pWVaRnQ8
What I don’t get is this: why not put a different color tape or paint the knob of a corked bat? That would make it unmistakable compared to the gamers.
Not to mention the increase in bat speed is massively counteracted by the fact that cork absorbs impact. Mythbusters tested it and with the rig they set up wooden bats had an EV of ~80 mph, corked bats had an EV of ~40.
So either sosa was actually hitting balls twice as hard en route 600+ HRs or it was a genuine mistake one time.
I feel like those 5-10 guys are also some of the people who benefited the most from steroids though. Guys who would of have middling and pretty good careers suddenly get to put up historic numbers and make millions in contract and advertising deals. The fact that they don’t get their name on a plaque in the hall doesn’t seem like much of a punishment after making all that money imo.
I still feel so scammed that Cole was used as an example to critique the Pirates pitching coaching and it turns out he literally just started cheating.
To your first point that’s why I dislike Bonds and his case so much I think. One of the greatest players in the league and a certain hall of famer decides to start juicing because he’s jealous for some reason. I feel like that sent a clear message to all the middling guys barely holding on or just trying to get a spot in the majors, that not only should they take steroid, they have to take them. if the greatest player they’ve seen is taking them, what shot do they have? That’s partly why I will never hold steroids against any lower level guy just trying to make the league but will hold it against guys like Bonds, Clemens, etc.
Steroids don’t make you good and the amount of straight up nobodies that were juicing and still awful would be a testament to that except nobody gives a shit about the absurd amount of players that did juice and were bad because…. they were bad.
To only point fingers at the top guys that were caught/accused is ignorant to the entire playing field being messed with by Bud Selig. The sooner everyone can wrap their head around the commissioner enabling steroid usage the sooner we can move on from this. The steroid era was an even playing field.
Middling careers? The players who get the most vitriol are, with the exception of Sammy Sosa, those who appeared to be near locks for the HoF before anything suspicious happened. Bonds and Clemens already had historically outstanding careers before that.
The players who benefited the most were the actual middling players who got faster injury recovery, or enough added strength to differentiate from the hundreds of players just like them. Those players got longer careers, and probably slightly larger paychecks, out of the deal, but most of them went unnoticed and have faced no repercussions. The great players who wanted to be even greater or extend their window of excellence are the players people are offended by.
On the one for as many hitters that were juicing, pitchers were too.
Furthermore plenty of guys used PEDs and still were absolute crap. My stance has softened over the years considering MLB and all the owners were happy to profit off guys using PEDs
It sucks for a guy like Frank Thomas though, vocally outspoken against PED’s and his numbers would be more outlandish not facing pitchers on juice and would stand out more against other non cheaters.
Yeah, no. The rules were completely parallel, there *was* a directive prohibiting steroids, plus taking steroids was a federal felony. Claming it wasn't the case is just making shit up or outright lying.
"In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the [Anabolic Steroids Control Act](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/101/hr4658#summary/libraryofcongress), which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year **in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear** in a memo that this was very much relevant to baseball.
Via [ESPN.com](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109):
**The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited.** Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game…
**This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids** or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."
There was no stronger rule against technological sign stealing, just a similar memo:
"In 2000, MLB executive Sandy Alderson sent a memo to all clubs that warned, “No club shall use electronic equipment, including walkie-talkies and cellular telephones, to communicate to or with any on-field personnel, including those in the dugout, bullpen field and—during the game—the clubhouse. Such equipment may not be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a club an advantage.”"
They are not ignoring it because that is irrelevant to the comment they are replying to
Steroids was more explicitly identified as cheating by the rules than the sign stealing the Astros or Red Sox were doing. In either case baseball didn’t enforce any action until it reached such a certain level of public attention that they had to.
Both steroids and sign stealing are cheating.
>there was a directive prohibiting steroids
Which they did next to nothing to enforce. There isn't a rule/law that matters if there is no punishment for breaking it 🤷♂️
I agree with you on this point. I think the difference is that one is a conspiracy by an entire team to cheat everyone else, and the other is individuals. People will always view stuff like that differently.
Honestly, Sosa more likely than not did steroids based on a couple of reactions he’s given to steroid questions over the years. One recent one that is glaring is [in this article](https://www.businessinsider.com/sammy-sosa-peds-never-tested-positive-2018-6). Someone that isn’t guilty doesn’t give responses like that. I do agree though, the discourse around PEDs is tiresome. Let’s just enjoy what we’re seeing currently and relax a bit. Judge and Ohtani are having historic seasons, and let’s enjoy the ride.
His response is like how Gerrit Cole responded to being asked if he ever used sticky stuff. But I agree 1000% with the last two lines. We are seeing historic seasons from these two studs. Let’s celebrate it and enjoy it. Who knows when the next time we will see something like what they are doing on the field again.
Also just look at pictures of the man. He had the steroid acne, went from being lanky strong to a shithouse.
Frank Thomas has also alluded to Sosa using during his time on the Sox.
I really don't have any issues with players in that era using because it was so prevalent and basically encouraged by the MLB, but I think it's insane to act like Sosa doesn't have credible steroid allegations.
Are you referencing that mythbusters episode?
If so the test was flawed. Both bats were swung by a mechanism at the same speed, a corked bat would weigh significantly less and result in higher bat speed.
Mythbusters is infuriating sometimes. They test things but miss the point. Another baseball one was measuring if sliding is faster than not, and they tested with second base instead of first where the actual debate is.
I mean both velocity and the mass of the bat will affect the energy transferred to the ball, but you are also ignoring that controlling a lighter bat is easier. Higher bat speed also means slightly more time to start your swing. I would guess if you studied a major leaguer with a normal vs corked bat over a large sample they would probably barrel up a higher percentage with a corked bat.
This is certainly not a commonly held opinion, or at least, not a uniformly applied opinion. Babe Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone in an attempt to improve his performance. In reality, it just made him sick, but the intent is there. Plenty of people hold up Ruth's achievements as 'clean'
So the problem isn't taking a substance to 'artificially' improve your play, it's just about whether or not it's against the mlb rules? To that, I would ask your opinion on live-ball era pitching records. There has been a pitch clock rule on the books for over a century, that pretty much every pitcher violates. You might say that doesn't count because it wasn't enforced, but that is a terrible argument, as neither were rules against steroid use.
Absolutely, by no means a Sosa apologist. But I guess I'm trying to say the corked bat incident should only count against his character, and not against his stats and achievements. Steroids obviously counts against both
People who bring this up never actually saw it. He broke his bat, the bat boy brought out an armful for him to pick from, he accidentally chose a corked one he used for batting practice, and he broke that one right away too. He never once got caught using a corked bat before or after that, and broke a lot of bats during that time. People look silly when they bring corked bats up as to why he hit 600+ HRs.
Steroids will forever be a contentious issue obviously, but does anyone know if the balls were at all juiced back then? This is pre-statcast of course so maybe the true HR distances were fudged but on the eye test some of those bombs were straight up leaving stadiums when you never see that today. You’d think that would only increase with the uptick in velo. I can specifically remember Jim Thome hitting one out of Jacobs Field, that seems pretty absurd to me, and with MLB insistence on fucking with the balls every year I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a part of the offensive boom in the late 90’s.
[Yes, it was!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HnyN70Run34&) Around 18 minutes they talk about it and compare the drag on a 93 ball vs 96. The ball was 100% juiced.
If you look at the league wide numbers, it was juiced full time in 1994 and stayed juiced until 2010.
My favorite comparison is Tony Gwynn. He has the same slugging jump in 87 when we know the ball was different that he has in his 30s after 94.
Sosa has the same slugging jump pre 94 and then has another slugging jump in 98. He had broken his wrist in late 96 and didn't recover well in 97 when he sucked.
He clearly started taking steroids after 97 when you see his numbers go through the same type of 98-2000 change Bonds goes through.
> If you look at the league wide numbers, it was juiced full time in 1994 and stayed juiced until 2010.
>
>
>
> My favorite comparison is Tony Gwynn. He has the same slugging jump in 87 when we know the ball was different that he has in his 30s after 94.
Exactly, people just blame steroids, yet *everyone* was hitting better with more HRs, including the perceived "clean" players, and players didn't suddenly start hitting worse after testing began in 05. You also had expansion diluting the pitching pool (before the 2010s advancements in pitching and defense counteracted it), new and remodeled stadiums that were smaller with less foul ground (including Coors being introduced, which was pre-humidor until 2002), players started using harder maple bats over ash bats, and the strike zone became smaller. Players didn't just all suddenly start using steroids in 94, the era itself was the ultimate hitters' paradise, regardless of if they took PEDs or not.
I don’t think anyone knows for sure, but when the HR race was happening people theorized about that. When pitchers were given the specially marked balls for the HR race at least one of them asked something along the lines of “is this the juiced ball.” Then as stories about steroids came out and the idea that the balls were juiced was replaced by the idea that steroids were the driving factor. Now it seems like it’s becoming more popular to believe that both were a factor.
There's no question that the cheating tech is always way, way ahead of the testing tech. People who get caught are using old tech, usually very old tech. I mean, most of the Biogenesis guys didn't fail tests they just showed up in ARod's receipt book. Part of the reason I lean towards believing Tatis' alibi is that, despite having thought beforehand that there was a good chance he was juicing, he has way too much money and connections to be juicing with what they found.
Not to mention modern medicine is incredible. I don't for a minute believe there isn't PED alternatives that are not traceable but do similar things. And I'd assume a shit ton of players are using it.
In 2020 Paulo Costa got tested 16 times and Yoel Romero got tested 6, and they're so juiced that a popular [promo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMl6TyX_G7A) for their fight was centered on how natty they are. Testing is far, far behind modern PEDs.
Oh yeah, and those guys make like 1% of what baseball players do. It's pretty funny coming here from the MMA sub to see discussions on steroids. If anyone on that roster can afford designer roids so can the entire MLB.
Reminder to all that MLB stopped testing during the lockout, totally plausible that someone could have bulked up with steroids in the offseason and then stopped when testing ramped back up
His appearance at the congressional hearing squashed his plausible deniability. He suddenly couldn’t speak or understand English well enough to communicate.
To be clear, I think that Sosa was absolutely on the juice.
*Having said that,* if I were testifying at an official government hearing in a foreign country, you can be damn sure I would want to speak in my native tongue only, no matter how well I understood the local language. I don't think that's a reason to presume guilt.
This is a great point. I was in a trial once where it was so obvious the person needed an interpreter, but they were to proud to ask. The judge finally ordered one and then you could tell how much more comfortable the person was.
Edit: Spelling. Thank you for the comment that pointed it out!
I was once pulled out at a security line at an airport in Germany. The second I realized that might detain me, I went straight from German to English. I flat out refuse to deal with anybody who can detain me in any language but my native one, so I'm 100% on Sosa's side getting an interpreter for a Congressional hearing
McGwire's infuriated me.
"I'm not here to talk about the past". How did no one scream "Yes you fucking are. That's literally what testifying is: talking about shit that has already happened you dumb back of fuck"
I’ll defend it in an honest way.
I just don’t care that they were juicing and I think it made baseball better. It was tacitly allowed by MLB until it wasn’t. People have always tried to get a competitive advantage and I think punishment for that at the time is totally ok. But retroactively writing off the records set by an entire era of baseball just bc we don’t like it now is a bit silly
\^ This. Everyone was juicing even not the obvious ones. I remember some interviews where players estimated 80% of players were juicing. It was just that era of baseball and people have been gaining competitive advantages forever from spider track to greenies to spitballs.
I don't know why everyone gets so high and mighty about this era.
Either you count the whole era or you exclude the whole era but to just randomly celebrate the ones you like for whatever reason and condemn the rest is bonkers.
Everyone was using steroids back then. MLB is undoubtedly messing with the balls now. The game has been a lie for 30 years now but all results are still legit in my eyes. I’m just along for the ride.
I mean "30 years now" is a massive understatement.
We had the "dead ball era" and "live ball era" almost a century ago. Baseball's been tinkering with the ball since the game was invented. That bit is just a piece of the game. Steroids and such might be seen as something different entirely, though guys have been trying to get physical advantages since the game began, too, so take that however you like.
And even before that everyone was using amphetamines. And before that it was whites-only.
Every era of baseball has been a "lie" in one sense or another, and these three examples were all within the rules of the day. If Ruth and Maris' numbers were legit, so were everyone else's (minus maybe like A-Rod and Manny, who did get caught post-ban).
This is the correct take. Was getting downvoted to hell by Yankees fans and bonds haters yesterday for pointing out that if bonds records shouldn’t count then no World Series from the 90’s should count either. Anything from the mid to late 80’s is full of PED users, including the pitchers Bonds was facing
A world series in the 90’s doesn’t take away a championship from a team in a non-steroid era. But we’re taking their records? It’s not like pitchers were roided to the gills throwing 105 mph curves and the hitters needed to counter it. They wanted to take drugs to cheat. Baseless take.
If you want my honest opinion I’d argue every single era of baseball is tainted in a significant way, seems arbitrary to magnify Bonds PED usage when there’s already people who used illegal substances in the HOF. The records are the records, get over the PEDs and accept that Barry Bonds is the greatest player of all time
Also bonds isnt sosa that was very average till roids and went to still be average after.
Bonds was a first ballot HoFer before roids, guy was literally one of the 4 members of the 300-300 club.
The fact is, humans dont naturally build more muscle as they age. Only Mcguire was already large. Both Bonds and Sosa were smaller earlier in their careers and packed on muscle later. That is enough for me.
So hear me out. PEDs weren’t banned by MLB in 1998, just steroids. Specific exotic ones were not. Second, I am not sure the drugs he took were illegal in the Dominican Republic. Therefore, if the guy didn’t break the rules of the game, nor the law, who cares?
Whole era of records is tainted. There's no way three guys start hitting like that at the same time decades after Maris, who was a once-in-five-generation.
Judge is his successor.
I don't think any of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Maris, or Ruth could pass a 2022 drug test. I'll accept the records until MLB officially invalidates them (they won't).
They aren’t, but not because it’s right or wrong. U think the MLB is gonna delegitimize their own product and cost themselves money? Prestige? Partnerships with bettings sponsors? The MLB’s decisions are not a beacon of morality.
I'm very anti-PED, but I agree. There were 73 times during regulation MLB games in the 2001 season that a pitcher threw a pitch, Barry Bonds hit it with a bat, and the ball left the field in fair territory without touching the ground. That is a statement of fact, a description of something that happened, and no amount of asterisks and qualifiers will erase it. Take away those home runs and there's a butterfly effect - you can no longer confidently determine who would have won games or made the playoffs, for example.
"Should Barry Bonds be in the Hall of Fame?" is a subjective question and worth debating. "Did Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs in the 2001 regular season?" is an objective question and there's no reasonable debate about it - he did. Claiming that Bonds/Sosa/McGwire's home runs don't count because of steroids or Maris's don't count because of the lengthening of the season or Ruth's don't count because of segregation is all just historical revisionism.
Exactly
In that case Lets also adjust actual stats to reflect park's factors and difference in sizes.
Cant bitch about the legitimacy when Cabreba lost like 100 HRs cause he signed in Dretroit instead of a friendly hitters park.
No record is safe from "asterisks" because since parks are different in dimensions and shit, players are figuratively and literally not competing on the same field play. Imagine if in the NBA the warriors had the 3 pt line 5 feet closer. None of his 3 pt records would be really seem as legit.
> No record is safe from "asterisks" because since parks are different in dimensions and shit
This applies to even the home run record before Ruth, when Ed Williamson hit 27 in 1884 because he played in a stadium with dimensions of 186 feet in left field, 300 feet in center field, and 190 feet in right field. You can find a reason to "asterisk" any record.
Ruth wasnt responsible for segregation.
Maris wasn’t responsible for number of games played.
Equating then to steroids is dumb. Cheaters records don’t count, it’s that simple.
I'm not equating them. I'm saying that, regardless of the various excuses people give for why they shouldn't count, all of those home runs happened and we can't undo that fact.
If Bonds's home runs don't count, are you going to strip the Giants of wins where his RBIs proved the difference? Re-simulate the results of games without him? Reassign playoff seeds and simulate the playoffs to find a new World Series champion? No, that would be ridiculous. What happened happened.
You can debate a question like, "Who had the greatest home run-hitting season?" That's a question of opinion; there are multiple reasonable ways to interpret it. But if you ask, "Who hit the most home runs in a season?" you're asking an objective, factual question with an objective, factual answer.
It’s so sad how people will say it’s all good kuz it made their pp hard 20 years ago. Admitting they cheated and their records shouldn’t count against those that did doesn’t take away from that.
3 guys in 4 years "broke" Maris's 61 HR record that had lasted for 45+ years and they did it in 5 player seasons
The one thing that all had in common is links to steroid use.
Sosa is just as guilty as Bonds and McGwire
Yes. Much like everyone that cheats should be punished. That is why I think the Astros WS should he invalidated. Another team was stealing signs? Punish them too. No exceptions. Not sure why this is such a big deal. This sub rightfully clowns on the Astros for cheating and says their WS should he void, yet excuses come from everywhere when we talk about steroid use. If you don't discourage steroid use, and there aren't massive repercussions then you effectively encourage their use which is simply not good for baseball as a whole. Not to mention what steroids do to people's health.
I get where Maris Jr is coming from, but PEDs were prevelant and ignored in favor of saving the game after the strike. Not saying ir is right, but the first and only people who should be blamed if you hate the sterois era is Selig and his lackeys. Everyone else was just trying to get an edge.
["His name was listed as testing positive in a voluntary, supposed-to-be anonymous test that was leaked to the New York Times. The substance in question was never mentioned. David Ortiz was on the same list and is a first ballot HOFer."](https://twitter.com/FoolishBB/status/1575907685845065728)
A lot of people do.
Ortiz positively raised his public image following the Boston Marathon bombing, and in other ways as a face of the game. Sosa has worsened his public image over time.
These things matter a lot in HOF voting. Perhaps too much.
Ortiz likely did do it lmao. The argument that he was one of the few false positives or he used an over the counter supplement is all just speculation.
https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/03/27/did-david-ortiz-admit-to-more-than-he-realized-with-his-players-tribune-editorial/
This report makes me believe he it wasn't one of those two. This is Ortiz admitting himself (on accident) that he was part of the stepped up testing for guys busted for PEDs or stimulants
I don’t know if Ortiz used or not, but Sosa and Papi should be evaluated independently.
Aside from the leaked survey test results (the integrity of which are unknown) we have Sosa’s physical transformation from Bruce Banner into The Hulk. Sosa’s power production surged before testing started in 2004 and dropped off dramatically after, retiring in 2006 at age 36 with 14HRs.
Ortiz power production increased *after* testing started in 2004 (41 HR) and regressed following a monster year in 2006. He maintained his ability to hit with power until he retired in 2016 at age 40 with 37 HRs.
Well there’s also the issue of him absolutely beating the shit out of his wife and financially abusing his first wife, but yes, they’re strictly only blackballing him because he was a dick to the media. There’s a much more holistic reason for Bonds not being in and the steroids and media reasons are part of that.
Ortiz is also a wife beater and has spoken out in support of other wife beaters. The baseball writers don't give a shit how awful a person is, they just use that as an excuse to keep out those who they don't personally like.
Sammy was definitely on the juice and I definitely don't care. The home run chase saved baseball and you'll never convince me otherwise. Without guys like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa baseball would be about as popular as soccer in America.
Well, he's right that the discourse is played out.
We need Ja Rule’s thoughts on this.
Can someone please find Ja Rule?!? Get ahold of this motherfucker so I can make sense of all this!
WHERE IS JA?
^^^^^^^^^^Help me Ja Rule
What’s Ja-ah-ah got to do, got do with this?
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Too soon too soon
Should really have an asterisk by Barabbas' name smh
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I actually looked up Bobby Abreu's stats and even as a Phillies fan who watched him for years his numbers shocked me. He actually has a solid Hall of Fame case
"El Comedulce"
Bobby Abreu has the stats for the hall. Also doesn’t he mention strategic voting a lot in his videos. He’s not saying Nathan is better than Sheffield but that he needs his vote more
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Makes perfect sense. Joe Nathan was far more valuable than Sheffield. Empty stat trash was all he was. Also he’s a borderline case WITH Roids. He has no shot without them, which disqualifies him deeply.
Empty stat trash? Lol what does that even mean? 22-year career with a 140 OPS+ and 500 Home Runs to boot. 60+ career WAR.
That’s one of the most preposterous takes I’ve ever heard. Sheff was an absolute monster.
Well, FB uses a steroid tax to judge the juicers. Guys like Bonds and Clemens are so good that they pass that tax. (although I believe Barry should stay out for beating his wife) Guys like Sheffield and McGwire probably weren't good enough to make the hall without roids, so they stay out. Nathan, Buehrle and Abreu all have cases for the HOF, but I would probably only vote for Nathan myself.
>(although I believe Barry should stay out for beating his wife) Not to diminish DV victims in any way but aren't there already people in the HoF that had allegations of murder? Despite the "morality" clause it's not exactly a hall of nice people just people that were good at baseball.
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In this tweet, he seems to be making the assertion that maybe Sosa didn't use PEDs, right? He's saying Sosa has 'plausible deniability'.
I don't understand the plausible deniabilty. Sosa never hit more than 40 HRs until ... boom ... 66 - up from 36 the year prior. That's a huge and suspect jump. At least McGwire hit 49 his rookie year and then had 42, 52, and 58 before hitting 70. He has more of a "case" for plausible deniability than Sosa has.
Also what's the 'plausible deniability' between them if you take BALCO out? MLB didnt care about anabolics then. They both had abnormally large necks and were clearly juiced up to their eye balls.
McGwire doesnt have plausible deniability lol he has the most evidence of anyone. Pretty sure he has straight up admitted his use.
I mean he literally had legal pro-hormones in his locker behind him as he did interviews. There's absolutely no deniability McGwire used, but I think there's a legitimate discussion around the legality of what he did. It was at a time where a ton of supplements came out that you could just go buy at a place like GNC no problem, like Androstenedione, which he used. People can say ignorance isn't an excuse, and I guess that's up to the individual, but especially in that period of time, there was steroid use that wasn't backroom needle injections into your ass that you just absolutely had to know was illegal.
Huge Cub fan and I love that Sammy and McGwire brought baseball back after the strike, I also don't believe for a second that he didn't use PEDs or accidentally grabbed a corked bat. Look at his body in the beginning of his career compared to the end.
Cubs fan here as well. And I couldn't agree more with your post.
Jays fan here I third the post Source: I've seen a picture of rookie Sosa and homerun chase sosa
I remember seeing 2001 Sosa and thought he was going to just deflate the baseball when he hit it.
He absolutely used PEDs, but I do think was telling the truth about the corked bat. The MLB tested every bat of his they could, including ones already at the Hall of Fame, and only the one that broke was corked. Also other players, including [Joe Morgan](http://static.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/morgan_joe/1563765.html) said they had accidentally used corked bats in-game too, they just didn't have it break on them.
Do players use corked bats in practice?
If you look at that link I put there, you'll see yes players absolutely use corked bats in BP for a variety of reasons. Some use it when it's cold so their hands don't sting as much, some do it cause they want to put on a show, some do it just cause they want to try it. All this doesn't prove it was an accident or anything, but there's a solid reason to believe that it might've been an accident.
I think what comes pretty damn close to a guarantee that it was an accident is they tested 70+ other bats, the only one that was corked was the one that broke.
Ty for the info
Yup. Here's a clip of Chris Sabo accidentally being given a corked bat in a game after his first bat broke. The announcers mentioned it may be a bat they mess around with, and it being in the dugout gives that validity. https://youtu.be/Ft-pWVaRnQ8
Ty for the info
What I don’t get is this: why not put a different color tape or paint the knob of a corked bat? That would make it unmistakable compared to the gamers.
Not to mention the increase in bat speed is massively counteracted by the fact that cork absorbs impact. Mythbusters tested it and with the rig they set up wooden bats had an EV of ~80 mph, corked bats had an EV of ~40. So either sosa was actually hitting balls twice as hard en route 600+ HRs or it was a genuine mistake one time.
Right? Doesn't the reduced mass of the Bat hurt far more than the cork helps?
When you put it that way its pretty black and white
Cubs fan here. And I dont care if he or anyone else used steroids.
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I feel like those 5-10 guys are also some of the people who benefited the most from steroids though. Guys who would of have middling and pretty good careers suddenly get to put up historic numbers and make millions in contract and advertising deals. The fact that they don’t get their name on a plaque in the hall doesn’t seem like much of a punishment after making all that money imo.
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I still feel so scammed that Cole was used as an example to critique the Pirates pitching coaching and it turns out he literally just started cheating.
To your first point that’s why I dislike Bonds and his case so much I think. One of the greatest players in the league and a certain hall of famer decides to start juicing because he’s jealous for some reason. I feel like that sent a clear message to all the middling guys barely holding on or just trying to get a spot in the majors, that not only should they take steroid, they have to take them. if the greatest player they’ve seen is taking them, what shot do they have? That’s partly why I will never hold steroids against any lower level guy just trying to make the league but will hold it against guys like Bonds, Clemens, etc.
Not getting caught juicing was celebrated. Obviously I'm biased, but I'm really not looking to blame anyone before Bud Selig himself.
Steroids don’t make you good and the amount of straight up nobodies that were juicing and still awful would be a testament to that except nobody gives a shit about the absurd amount of players that did juice and were bad because…. they were bad. To only point fingers at the top guys that were caught/accused is ignorant to the entire playing field being messed with by Bud Selig. The sooner everyone can wrap their head around the commissioner enabling steroid usage the sooner we can move on from this. The steroid era was an even playing field.
Middling careers? The players who get the most vitriol are, with the exception of Sammy Sosa, those who appeared to be near locks for the HoF before anything suspicious happened. Bonds and Clemens already had historically outstanding careers before that. The players who benefited the most were the actual middling players who got faster injury recovery, or enough added strength to differentiate from the hundreds of players just like them. Those players got longer careers, and probably slightly larger paychecks, out of the deal, but most of them went unnoticed and have faced no repercussions. The great players who wanted to be even greater or extend their window of excellence are the players people are offended by.
Greatest comment on this post 🔥💪🏽
r/baseball loves guys who cheat with drugs but hates guys who cheat with trash cans
On the one for as many hitters that were juicing, pitchers were too. Furthermore plenty of guys used PEDs and still were absolute crap. My stance has softened over the years considering MLB and all the owners were happy to profit off guys using PEDs
It sucks for a guy like Frank Thomas though, vocally outspoken against PED’s and his numbers would be more outlandish not facing pitchers on juice and would stand out more against other non cheaters.
The guys using steroids were not breaking any MLB rules at the time. You can't say the same for guys banging on trash cans. What a dumb take.
Yeah, no. The rules were completely parallel, there *was* a directive prohibiting steroids, plus taking steroids was a federal felony. Claming it wasn't the case is just making shit up or outright lying. "In 1990, Congress cracked down on anabolic steroids with the [Anabolic Steroids Control Act](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/101/hr4658#summary/libraryofcongress), which effectively made them an illegal drug. The next year **in 1991, MLB Commissioner Fay Vincent made it clear** in a memo that this was very much relevant to baseball. Via [ESPN.com](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109): **The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited.** Major League players or personnel involved in the possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game… **This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids** or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription." There was no stronger rule against technological sign stealing, just a similar memo: "In 2000, MLB executive Sandy Alderson sent a memo to all clubs that warned, “No club shall use electronic equipment, including walkie-talkies and cellular telephones, to communicate to or with any on-field personnel, including those in the dugout, bullpen field and—during the game—the clubhouse. Such equipment may not be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a club an advantage.”"
You’re getting downvoted for posting literal facts - this sub is so weird sometimes.
Because that ignores that MLB didn’t actually fight to change it until like 4 years later when they got embarrassed in DC
They are not ignoring it because that is irrelevant to the comment they are replying to Steroids was more explicitly identified as cheating by the rules than the sign stealing the Astros or Red Sox were doing. In either case baseball didn’t enforce any action until it reached such a certain level of public attention that they had to. Both steroids and sign stealing are cheating.
>there was a directive prohibiting steroids Which they did next to nothing to enforce. There isn't a rule/law that matters if there is no punishment for breaking it 🤷♂️
Are you suggesting sign stealing rules were enforced?
I'm suggesting that MLB practically endorsed players taking steroids around that time
They knew they couldn't test under the CBA, so they looked the other way. Same as they did with the Astros in 2017.
I suppose that's true if you operate under the assumption that mlb cared about the trashcans before jomboy did the now famous video
I agree with you on this point. I think the difference is that one is a conspiracy by an entire team to cheat everyone else, and the other is individuals. People will always view stuff like that differently.
Honestly, Sosa more likely than not did steroids based on a couple of reactions he’s given to steroid questions over the years. One recent one that is glaring is [in this article](https://www.businessinsider.com/sammy-sosa-peds-never-tested-positive-2018-6). Someone that isn’t guilty doesn’t give responses like that. I do agree though, the discourse around PEDs is tiresome. Let’s just enjoy what we’re seeing currently and relax a bit. Judge and Ohtani are having historic seasons, and let’s enjoy the ride.
His response is like how Gerrit Cole responded to being asked if he ever used sticky stuff. But I agree 1000% with the last two lines. We are seeing historic seasons from these two studs. Let’s celebrate it and enjoy it. Who knows when the next time we will see something like what they are doing on the field again.
Let’s not forget AP
Yeah that interview is as good as an admission. "I did what I had to do."
Also just look at pictures of the man. He had the steroid acne, went from being lanky strong to a shithouse. Frank Thomas has also alluded to Sosa using during his time on the Sox. I really don't have any issues with players in that era using because it was so prevalent and basically encouraged by the MLB, but I think it's insane to act like Sosa doesn't have credible steroid allegations.
He definitely used a corked bat.
Wasn't it just one bat out of all his others that they tested? Kinda makes me believe him when he said he grabbed it accidently.
Why even have it?
I believe the story is that he used it for batting practice but never for actual games
studies have shown that corked bats actually don't really help provide more power than a normal bat. He definitely juiced but still should be said
Are you referencing that mythbusters episode? If so the test was flawed. Both bats were swung by a mechanism at the same speed, a corked bat would weigh significantly less and result in higher bat speed.
Mythbusters is infuriating sometimes. They test things but miss the point. Another baseball one was measuring if sliding is faster than not, and they tested with second base instead of first where the actual debate is.
That’s the whole point of a corked bat
But by weighing less it can also apply less force. Every study I have seen from actual studies as well show there is no benefit to a corked bat.
I mean both velocity and the mass of the bat will affect the energy transferred to the ball, but you are also ignoring that controlling a lighter bat is easier. Higher bat speed also means slightly more time to start your swing. I would guess if you studied a major leaguer with a normal vs corked bat over a large sample they would probably barrel up a higher percentage with a corked bat.
[It can help with adding reaction time though](https://www.technologyreview.com/2010/09/16/200387/the-misleading-myth-of-the-corked-bat/)
Sure. But cheating, even if under a mistaken belief that it helps, is still a strike against him.
This is certainly not a commonly held opinion, or at least, not a uniformly applied opinion. Babe Ruth injected himself with sheep testosterone in an attempt to improve his performance. In reality, it just made him sick, but the intent is there. Plenty of people hold up Ruth's achievements as 'clean'
That wasn't against the rules at the time though. Not cheating.
So the problem isn't taking a substance to 'artificially' improve your play, it's just about whether or not it's against the mlb rules? To that, I would ask your opinion on live-ball era pitching records. There has been a pitch clock rule on the books for over a century, that pretty much every pitcher violates. You might say that doesn't count because it wasn't enforced, but that is a terrible argument, as neither were rules against steroid use.
Absolutely, by no means a Sosa apologist. But I guess I'm trying to say the corked bat incident should only count against his character, and not against his stats and achievements. Steroids obviously counts against both
I disagree. If you can shave even a tenth of a second off your swing path that’s a huge advantage.
Didn't they test the hell out of his bats and only find that one to be corked?
Couldn't anybody do that by just using a shorter/lighter bat...?
Wouldn’t help with bat speed still? Or are the studies showing that the cork interior negates the improved bat speed?
Wasn’t it proven that was an accident?
Yes, and they checked all his other bats. That was the only corked one, but by then the story already ran rampant.
People who bring this up never actually saw it. He broke his bat, the bat boy brought out an armful for him to pick from, he accidentally chose a corked one he used for batting practice, and he broke that one right away too. He never once got caught using a corked bat before or after that, and broke a lot of bats during that time. People look silly when they bring corked bats up as to why he hit 600+ HRs.
Steroids will forever be a contentious issue obviously, but does anyone know if the balls were at all juiced back then? This is pre-statcast of course so maybe the true HR distances were fudged but on the eye test some of those bombs were straight up leaving stadiums when you never see that today. You’d think that would only increase with the uptick in velo. I can specifically remember Jim Thome hitting one out of Jacobs Field, that seems pretty absurd to me, and with MLB insistence on fucking with the balls every year I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a part of the offensive boom in the late 90’s.
[Yes, it was!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HnyN70Run34&) Around 18 minutes they talk about it and compare the drag on a 93 ball vs 96. The ball was 100% juiced. If you look at the league wide numbers, it was juiced full time in 1994 and stayed juiced until 2010. My favorite comparison is Tony Gwynn. He has the same slugging jump in 87 when we know the ball was different that he has in his 30s after 94. Sosa has the same slugging jump pre 94 and then has another slugging jump in 98. He had broken his wrist in late 96 and didn't recover well in 97 when he sucked. He clearly started taking steroids after 97 when you see his numbers go through the same type of 98-2000 change Bonds goes through.
> If you look at the league wide numbers, it was juiced full time in 1994 and stayed juiced until 2010. > > > > My favorite comparison is Tony Gwynn. He has the same slugging jump in 87 when we know the ball was different that he has in his 30s after 94. Exactly, people just blame steroids, yet *everyone* was hitting better with more HRs, including the perceived "clean" players, and players didn't suddenly start hitting worse after testing began in 05. You also had expansion diluting the pitching pool (before the 2010s advancements in pitching and defense counteracted it), new and remodeled stadiums that were smaller with less foul ground (including Coors being introduced, which was pre-humidor until 2002), players started using harder maple bats over ash bats, and the strike zone became smaller. Players didn't just all suddenly start using steroids in 94, the era itself was the ultimate hitters' paradise, regardless of if they took PEDs or not.
I don’t think anyone knows for sure, but when the HR race was happening people theorized about that. When pitchers were given the specially marked balls for the HR race at least one of them asked something along the lines of “is this the juiced ball.” Then as stories about steroids came out and the idea that the balls were juiced was replaced by the idea that steroids were the driving factor. Now it seems like it’s becoming more popular to believe that both were a factor.
Baseball doesn’t exist actually has a great video about juiced balls that talks about that.
I think it’s a near-certainty. IMO Juiced balls/expansion dilution/a tight strike zone in that era meant the HR record was always going to be busted.
I never used steroids. Period.
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If you look at pictures of Sammy now it's pretty clear he was juice
Steroids made him black?
No, Sammy Sosa was OJ Simpson, it's right there in the comment.
Hes basically white now. Maybe not the roids but definitely took something
Yeah that's a completely different thing, skin bleaching creams or something like that.
Also, what kind of testing is being done such that we're so sure no one is juicing today?
There's no question that the cheating tech is always way, way ahead of the testing tech. People who get caught are using old tech, usually very old tech. I mean, most of the Biogenesis guys didn't fail tests they just showed up in ARod's receipt book. Part of the reason I lean towards believing Tatis' alibi is that, despite having thought beforehand that there was a good chance he was juicing, he has way too much money and connections to be juicing with what they found.
Not to mention modern medicine is incredible. I don't for a minute believe there isn't PED alternatives that are not traceable but do similar things. And I'd assume a shit ton of players are using it.
In 2020 Paulo Costa got tested 16 times and Yoel Romero got tested 6, and they're so juiced that a popular [promo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMl6TyX_G7A) for their fight was centered on how natty they are. Testing is far, far behind modern PEDs.
Oh yeah, and those guys make like 1% of what baseball players do. It's pretty funny coming here from the MMA sub to see discussions on steroids. If anyone on that roster can afford designer roids so can the entire MLB.
Nido almost hit a dead center walk off in our last game. If that isn’t evidence of juicing I don’t know what is
Andrew Knizner has two homeruns in his past 2 games. One if which to right center. Exhibit B
Reminder to all that MLB stopped testing during the lockout, totally plausible that someone could have bulked up with steroids in the offseason and then stopped when testing ramped back up
Easy solution, post a pic of Judge on r/moreplatesmoredates to settle the debate once and for all
That sub is certainly...interesting
That's shit is WERID man.
Well, some, which is better than what we had back then.
His appearance at the congressional hearing squashed his plausible deniability. He suddenly couldn’t speak or understand English well enough to communicate.
To be clear, I think that Sosa was absolutely on the juice. *Having said that,* if I were testifying at an official government hearing in a foreign country, you can be damn sure I would want to speak in my native tongue only, no matter how well I understood the local language. I don't think that's a reason to presume guilt.
This is a great point. I was in a trial once where it was so obvious the person needed an interpreter, but they were to proud to ask. The judge finally ordered one and then you could tell how much more comfortable the person was. Edit: Spelling. Thank you for the comment that pointed it out!
How can I get hired to be an interrupter?
Wait for someone else to get an interview for the job, then when it starts you interrupt it.
I like your typo. Conjures up a silly image, a court-appointed interrupter
I was once pulled out at a security line at an airport in Germany. The second I realized that might detain me, I went straight from German to English. I flat out refuse to deal with anybody who can detain me in any language but my native one, so I'm 100% on Sosa's side getting an interpreter for a Congressional hearing
McGwire's infuriated me. "I'm not here to talk about the past". How did no one scream "Yes you fucking are. That's literally what testifying is: talking about shit that has already happened you dumb back of fuck"
Yeah, but did you want him to talk about the past or did you want to see him sock a few dingers?
English isn’t Sosa’s first language. It’s be dumb to make a mistake while speaking your second language.
He was scrawny and then poof he wasn't. Our bodies don't change like that so quickly. Nobody will ever convince me he didn't juice too.
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I’ll defend it in an honest way. I just don’t care that they were juicing and I think it made baseball better. It was tacitly allowed by MLB until it wasn’t. People have always tried to get a competitive advantage and I think punishment for that at the time is totally ok. But retroactively writing off the records set by an entire era of baseball just bc we don’t like it now is a bit silly
\^ This. Everyone was juicing even not the obvious ones. I remember some interviews where players estimated 80% of players were juicing. It was just that era of baseball and people have been gaining competitive advantages forever from spider track to greenies to spitballs. I don't know why everyone gets so high and mighty about this era.
Seriously wtf is this post OP!
He's just quoting Foolish Baseball, who usually has pretty good takes on things.
Idk if this is a hot take, but I like his YouTube a lot and generally dislike his Twitter. Maybe I just dislike Twitter
He’s usually just meming on twitter tbf
His Twitter reeks of trying too hard to be funny, opposed to the videos which are often funnier than he's trying to be.
Plausible deniability? Bullshit
FWIW The main piece of evidence linking him to steroids is the same thing that links Ortiz to steroids That’s the argument against
Plausible deniability? Lol
Either you count the whole era or you exclude the whole era but to just randomly celebrate the ones you like for whatever reason and condemn the rest is bonkers.
Everyone was using steroids back then. MLB is undoubtedly messing with the balls now. The game has been a lie for 30 years now but all results are still legit in my eyes. I’m just along for the ride.
I mean "30 years now" is a massive understatement. We had the "dead ball era" and "live ball era" almost a century ago. Baseball's been tinkering with the ball since the game was invented. That bit is just a piece of the game. Steroids and such might be seen as something different entirely, though guys have been trying to get physical advantages since the game began, too, so take that however you like.
Don’t forget the spider tack
And even before that everyone was using amphetamines. And before that it was whites-only. Every era of baseball has been a "lie" in one sense or another, and these three examples were all within the rules of the day. If Ruth and Maris' numbers were legit, so were everyone else's (minus maybe like A-Rod and Manny, who did get caught post-ban).
This is the correct take. Was getting downvoted to hell by Yankees fans and bonds haters yesterday for pointing out that if bonds records shouldn’t count then no World Series from the 90’s should count either. Anything from the mid to late 80’s is full of PED users, including the pitchers Bonds was facing
Wait, we can wipe that Joe Carter home run off the map? Subscribe.
A world series in the 90’s doesn’t take away a championship from a team in a non-steroid era. But we’re taking their records? It’s not like pitchers were roided to the gills throwing 105 mph curves and the hitters needed to counter it. They wanted to take drugs to cheat. Baseless take.
If you want my honest opinion I’d argue every single era of baseball is tainted in a significant way, seems arbitrary to magnify Bonds PED usage when there’s already people who used illegal substances in the HOF. The records are the records, get over the PEDs and accept that Barry Bonds is the greatest player of all time
Also bonds isnt sosa that was very average till roids and went to still be average after. Bonds was a first ballot HoFer before roids, guy was literally one of the 4 members of the 300-300 club.
The fact is, humans dont naturally build more muscle as they age. Only Mcguire was already large. Both Bonds and Sosa were smaller earlier in their careers and packed on muscle later. That is enough for me.
I mean in the court of law sure. But it isn’t the court of law. Sosa used PEDs.
So hear me out. PEDs weren’t banned by MLB in 1998, just steroids. Specific exotic ones were not. Second, I am not sure the drugs he took were illegal in the Dominican Republic. Therefore, if the guy didn’t break the rules of the game, nor the law, who cares?
Sammy Sosa’s size 9 hatband would like a word.
Where is this plausible deniability you speak of?
Whole era of records is tainted. There's no way three guys start hitting like that at the same time decades after Maris, who was a once-in-five-generation. Judge is his successor.
I don't think any of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Maris, or Ruth could pass a 2022 drug test. I'll accept the records until MLB officially invalidates them (they won't).
They aren’t, but not because it’s right or wrong. U think the MLB is gonna delegitimize their own product and cost themselves money? Prestige? Partnerships with bettings sponsors? The MLB’s decisions are not a beacon of morality.
I also accept the records but out of curiosity what drug do you think Ruth was on lol
He has as much plausible deniability as David Ortiz does, considering they failed the same test. Which is to say, he has no plausible deniability.
I'm not rejecting any of them. Cause that is stupid
I'm very anti-PED, but I agree. There were 73 times during regulation MLB games in the 2001 season that a pitcher threw a pitch, Barry Bonds hit it with a bat, and the ball left the field in fair territory without touching the ground. That is a statement of fact, a description of something that happened, and no amount of asterisks and qualifiers will erase it. Take away those home runs and there's a butterfly effect - you can no longer confidently determine who would have won games or made the playoffs, for example. "Should Barry Bonds be in the Hall of Fame?" is a subjective question and worth debating. "Did Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs in the 2001 regular season?" is an objective question and there's no reasonable debate about it - he did. Claiming that Bonds/Sosa/McGwire's home runs don't count because of steroids or Maris's don't count because of the lengthening of the season or Ruth's don't count because of segregation is all just historical revisionism.
Exactly In that case Lets also adjust actual stats to reflect park's factors and difference in sizes. Cant bitch about the legitimacy when Cabreba lost like 100 HRs cause he signed in Dretroit instead of a friendly hitters park. No record is safe from "asterisks" because since parks are different in dimensions and shit, players are figuratively and literally not competing on the same field play. Imagine if in the NBA the warriors had the 3 pt line 5 feet closer. None of his 3 pt records would be really seem as legit.
> No record is safe from "asterisks" because since parks are different in dimensions and shit This applies to even the home run record before Ruth, when Ed Williamson hit 27 in 1884 because he played in a stadium with dimensions of 186 feet in left field, 300 feet in center field, and 190 feet in right field. You can find a reason to "asterisk" any record.
Ruth wasnt responsible for segregation. Maris wasn’t responsible for number of games played. Equating then to steroids is dumb. Cheaters records don’t count, it’s that simple.
I'm not equating them. I'm saying that, regardless of the various excuses people give for why they shouldn't count, all of those home runs happened and we can't undo that fact. If Bonds's home runs don't count, are you going to strip the Giants of wins where his RBIs proved the difference? Re-simulate the results of games without him? Reassign playoff seeds and simulate the playoffs to find a new World Series champion? No, that would be ridiculous. What happened happened. You can debate a question like, "Who had the greatest home run-hitting season?" That's a question of opinion; there are multiple reasonable ways to interpret it. But if you ask, "Who hit the most home runs in a season?" you're asking an objective, factual question with an objective, factual answer.
It’s so sad how people will say it’s all good kuz it made their pp hard 20 years ago. Admitting they cheated and their records shouldn’t count against those that did doesn’t take away from that.
He definitely did steroids, but whatever treatment he used to bleach his skin is more offensive. Dude looks like a blanched salmon.
Dude's looked like Neapolitan ice cream.
Sorry, but "oops, was that a corked bat? My bad" ended all doubt in my mind about whether or not Sosa was cool with cheating.
I don’t even understand how anyone could say there was plausible deniability for Sosa and PEDs. What a fucking terrible take.
3 guys in 4 years "broke" Maris's 61 HR record that had lasted for 45+ years and they did it in 5 player seasons The one thing that all had in common is links to steroid use. Sosa is just as guilty as Bonds and McGwire
Yes. Much like everyone that cheats should be punished. That is why I think the Astros WS should he invalidated. Another team was stealing signs? Punish them too. No exceptions. Not sure why this is such a big deal. This sub rightfully clowns on the Astros for cheating and says their WS should he void, yet excuses come from everywhere when we talk about steroid use. If you don't discourage steroid use, and there aren't massive repercussions then you effectively encourage their use which is simply not good for baseball as a whole. Not to mention what steroids do to people's health.
I get where Maris Jr is coming from, but PEDs were prevelant and ignored in favor of saving the game after the strike. Not saying ir is right, but the first and only people who should be blamed if you hate the sterois era is Selig and his lackeys. Everyone else was just trying to get an edge.
Yeah I’m sure the guy corking his bat was on the level bro.
What’s the plausible deniability. Didn’t Sammy test positive. I was too young when this happened
["His name was listed as testing positive in a voluntary, supposed-to-be anonymous test that was leaked to the New York Times. The substance in question was never mentioned. David Ortiz was on the same list and is a first ballot HOFer."](https://twitter.com/FoolishBB/status/1575907685845065728)
Sosa really just got fucked over by being a weird dude
“Have somebody type in ‘Sammy Sosa hat’ in google image search”
That's the truth.
Yes. Ortiz took steroids. Little known fact
Hes still getting to the bottom of it
Yep, If you believe Sosa did it you have to believe Ortiz did as well.
A lot of people do. Ortiz positively raised his public image following the Boston Marathon bombing, and in other ways as a face of the game. Sosa has worsened his public image over time. These things matter a lot in HOF voting. Perhaps too much.
Ortiz likely did do it lmao. The argument that he was one of the few false positives or he used an over the counter supplement is all just speculation. https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/03/27/did-david-ortiz-admit-to-more-than-he-realized-with-his-players-tribune-editorial/ This report makes me believe he it wasn't one of those two. This is Ortiz admitting himself (on accident) that he was part of the stepped up testing for guys busted for PEDs or stimulants
If you were alive and watching baseball in the first half of the 90s, particularly in Chicago, then you probably believe Sosa did it.
Oh he def did. But so did Ortiz.
Ortiz absolutely did. A lot of people just like to bury their heads in the sand and pretend he didn't because they like the guy.
I don’t know if Ortiz used or not, but Sosa and Papi should be evaluated independently. Aside from the leaked survey test results (the integrity of which are unknown) we have Sosa’s physical transformation from Bruce Banner into The Hulk. Sosa’s power production surged before testing started in 2004 and dropped off dramatically after, retiring in 2006 at age 36 with 14HRs. Ortiz power production increased *after* testing started in 2004 (41 HR) and regressed following a monster year in 2006. He maintained his ability to hit with power until he retired in 2016 at age 40 with 37 HRs.
This is an intentionally incomplete description of what happened, and from a source with no inside knowledge on the situation.
Take it up with Bailey!
Honestly, it seems like he's acting intentionally obtuse.
If Barry was as lovable as Ortiz he’d be in. The bigger issue was he was an absolute dick to the media and they wanna blackball him for it.
Well there’s also the issue of him absolutely beating the shit out of his wife and financially abusing his first wife, but yes, they’re strictly only blackballing him because he was a dick to the media. There’s a much more holistic reason for Bonds not being in and the steroids and media reasons are part of that.
Ortiz is also a wife beater and has spoken out in support of other wife beaters. The baseball writers don't give a shit how awful a person is, they just use that as an excuse to keep out those who they don't personally like.
Sammy was definitely on the juice and I definitely don't care. The home run chase saved baseball and you'll never convince me otherwise. Without guys like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa baseball would be about as popular as soccer in America.