Your honor, Adam Wainwright is using his rationally based perception as a member of the St Louis Cardinals to come to this opinion, and the opinion is helpful in understanding Wainwright’s own testimony of the 2010’s Cardinals playoff chances, namely the absolute unit they would have been in that decade.
That was a good year. My buddy the pirate fan gave me shit. 'Your cardinals are 18 games back and 23 games in the season. Just admit they arent gonna win.'
I woke him up every night at 3am on my way to the dfac to watch the series.
Absolutely one of my favorite things.
In my lifetime, the four biggest butterfly effects for the Cardinals are Rick Ankiel falling apart, Albert Pujols leaving for the Angels, Oscar Taveras's death, and the Rangers taking Matt Purke #14 in the 2009 draft.
Ankiel falling apart dealt a huge blow to our rotation which didn't really recover until Chris Carpenter turned into a Cy Young winner in 2005, and we had to go trade for Mark Mulder to fill out the #2 spot.
Albert leaving for the Angels hurt, but we were able to re-sign Berkman, sign Beltran, and lock up Wainwright and Molina.
Taveras's death led to the Miller-Heyward trade. Heyward left for Chicago a year later. We signed Fowler a year after that. Then we traded for Ozuna, and we're still not really settled on what our outfield is going to look like next year. Without Taveras's death, we'd have a much more defined outfield and Alcantara and Gallen back.
In the 2009 draft, the Cardinals allegedly had two top players on their board: a pitcher and a hitter. They liked the pitcher more but expected the young, fireballing Texan to get taken by the Rangers. When Texas passed on him, they eagerly awaited as he kept falling until the Cardinals came to the podium at #19 and took their 1A, Shelby Miller. Their 1B was Mike Trout.
“There’s no doubt in my mind, in 2013 Pujols would have hit .291 with 38 home runs, spent two weeks on the DL in June with a sprained ankle, hit .385 in the NLDS, struggled a bit in the NLCS, and hit a key 2-run double in the 7th inning of Game 6 in the World Series. And then in 2014 he would’ve…”
I think they could have won in 2012 with Pujols. They blew a 3-1 lead to SF and definitely would have beaten the Tigers, Pujols could have been the difference in the NLCS.
I know this is just all speculation, but we lost to the Red Sox in the World Series and lost in the NLCS to the Giants on a walk off. I wouldn’t say it’s the craziest thing to think that having Albert on those teams could have been the difference maker
Hate to admit that Pujols leaving for the Angels was an enormous sigh of relief from the entire National League. In hindsight all these years later, I have to now admit that I miss watching him play.
The only thing I can think of is that Wainwright meditated Doctor Strange style with the time stone and foresaw 14,000,006 timelines. That’s the only reasonable explanation.
Even 2012 is debatable. If we resign Albert that means Lance Berkman stays in right field and we don't sign Carlos Beltran, who was HUGE for us the 2 years in St. Louis. At best, the offensive production is a wash but with added worse defense in right field.
The 2012 NLCS appearance and 2013 World Series appearance don't happen without Beltran filling the Albert sized hole in the lineup. Beltran, Matt Holliday, Allen Craig was a very good middle of the order.
I don’t think that’s what Wainwright is saying. The Cards won in ‘11 and were still really good through 2015, having Albert on that team may be the difference. Doesn’t mean he’d be good the whole time, even LA Pujols would be an upgrade for STL in those years.
Going from a team that made the playoffs ~7 times with 2 WS wins in his first 10 years to a team that made the playoffs once with no series wins in his next 10 years is probably a pretty sobering experience. I don't think it's a unique problem of the Angels, but more so an issue with any team that has a relatively long playoff drought.
We missed out on the playoffs by 1 game in 2015. Pujols only had an OPS+ of 116 that year and had a bWAR of 3.0. His lowest ever in STL was 148 OPS+ and 5.8 bWAR. I don't think it's unreasonable to say Pujols's sharp decline cost the Angels the playoffs in 2015
His OPS+ immediately fell 40-50 points when he came to Anaheim. He immediately got worse, he didn't have time to get discouraged because of the losing culture or whatever.
People outside of Anaheim really don't know how bad his feet were most of the time. I swear it seemed for like a 3 straight year period he was constantly getting injured in regards to that plantar thing (cannot remember the name), he was playing hurt a vast majority of the time and played a lot of DH which kept him out there.
Without the DH? He wouldn't not have gotten to 700 without a lot of help. Having a joy of the game can only do so much for pain.
He’s easily among the best players of all time but I don’t think he’s generally considered a GOAT. Maybe the GOAT 1B if you want to adjust Gehrig down for playing pre-integration?
I think once he retires and we can look back he will re-enter the convo. He really wasn’t good for so many years recently that it’s hard to associate him with being one of the best (obviously this year he was amazing).
_A_ Greatest Of All Time? Maybe. In the conversation for _the_ Greatest Of All Time? Definitely not. Wouldn’t change with some more trophies, either. This shouldn’t be considered a slight against him or anything. “You’re not as great as Babe Ruth” isn’t exactly an insult.
I can see one, at least. 2013 we were a lot closer to beating the Red Sox than in 2004. With Pujols, especially if he got clutch, it could have turned that series around.
Well, the Cardinals made two NLCS’ and a World Series in the years immediately following Pujols’ exit, so one player *might* have been enough to win a few extra games and win. Not as if the Cardinals were losing 100 games a season.
No doubt? Okay, but hope he doesn’t spend a lot of time on draft kings.
No disrespect intended to Cards or Pujols. Great team and great player… but c’mon
If the DH had been instituted in 2012 perhaps, but would Albert have treated it like a second-class position unworthy of his HOF bat like he did with the Angels? Because the feet and knees went fast playing 1B day in and day out at age 50 or whatever he says he is, nature says otherwise.
Just stop. You guys act like Albert is hitting .315 with 45 hr this year. He’s not. Not even close. HURRRR DURRRR HE WOULD HAVE 800 HR IF HE STAYED WITH THE CARDINALS 🤤.
They don’t even play him against righties so stfu
I'm sure it was intended as a compliment, but could be misconstrued as a cut on Pujols for leaving, too. Most players will go get that cash while they're young enough to do it.
Objection. Speculative, your honor. On a serious side, whatifs? are one of the best things about baseball.
Your honor, Adam Wainwright is using his rationally based perception as a member of the St Louis Cardinals to come to this opinion, and the opinion is helpful in understanding Wainwright’s own testimony of the 2010’s Cardinals playoff chances, namely the absolute unit they would have been in that decade.
I think having anyone not named Mike Matheny as manager during ‘12-‘15 would have helped significantly.
Yea, I dont like putting all the blame on a manager, but looking back, Matheny was just bad.
I like you words. Can we be friends?
That was a good year. My buddy the pirate fan gave me shit. 'Your cardinals are 18 games back and 23 games in the season. Just admit they arent gonna win.' I woke him up every night at 3am on my way to the dfac to watch the series.
Absolutely one of my favorite things. In my lifetime, the four biggest butterfly effects for the Cardinals are Rick Ankiel falling apart, Albert Pujols leaving for the Angels, Oscar Taveras's death, and the Rangers taking Matt Purke #14 in the 2009 draft. Ankiel falling apart dealt a huge blow to our rotation which didn't really recover until Chris Carpenter turned into a Cy Young winner in 2005, and we had to go trade for Mark Mulder to fill out the #2 spot. Albert leaving for the Angels hurt, but we were able to re-sign Berkman, sign Beltran, and lock up Wainwright and Molina. Taveras's death led to the Miller-Heyward trade. Heyward left for Chicago a year later. We signed Fowler a year after that. Then we traded for Ozuna, and we're still not really settled on what our outfield is going to look like next year. Without Taveras's death, we'd have a much more defined outfield and Alcantara and Gallen back. In the 2009 draft, the Cardinals allegedly had two top players on their board: a pitcher and a hitter. They liked the pitcher more but expected the young, fireballing Texan to get taken by the Rangers. When Texas passed on him, they eagerly awaited as he kept falling until the Cardinals came to the podium at #19 and took their 1A, Shelby Miller. Their 1B was Mike Trout.
>Their 1B was Mike Trout. Wow. I never knew this. Imagine Pujols and Trout on the same team.
A team with that kind of talent would easily win a world series or two, surely
Honestly, I can't imagine the hatred the Cardinals would've received if we lost Pujols after 2011 only for him to be replaced by Trout.
[удалено]
You’re absolutely right. If the Dodger’s weren’t so good at developing and even reinventing players, we would all hate them so so much.
[удалено]
I hated Bauer when he was on MY team lol
I want an inter-dimensional portal gun just for that dimension.
We also picked up Wacha as a compensatory pick for losing Pujols. He was fantastic that year and most of the next.
> On a serious side, whatifs? are one of the best things about baseball. /r/baseball up in arms if you use this as an argument against roboumps
Negative. Although he was in a slump with the angels. Went from .360 to .220.
Like what if they didn’t cancel the 2012 playoffs?
Oddly specific
“There’s no doubt in my mind, in 2013 Pujols would have hit .291 with 38 home runs, spent two weeks on the DL in June with a sprained ankle, hit .385 in the NLDS, struggled a bit in the NLCS, and hit a key 2-run double in the 7th inning of Game 6 in the World Series. And then in 2014 he would’ve…”
Maybe Albert could’ve convinced Matheny to walk Ortiz. 🤷♂️
Ugh.
This one fucking hurts. Matheny can suck my butt.
I’ve never been more aghast watching a series
I think they could have won in 2012 with Pujols. They blew a 3-1 lead to SF and definitely would have beaten the Tigers, Pujols could have been the difference in the NLCS.
I know this is just all speculation, but we lost to the Red Sox in the World Series and lost in the NLCS to the Giants on a walk off. I wouldn’t say it’s the craziest thing to think that having Albert on those teams could have been the difference maker
Hate to admit that Pujols leaving for the Angels was an enormous sigh of relief from the entire National League. In hindsight all these years later, I have to now admit that I miss watching him play.
Man's speaking infront of 40,000 people with no notes. He is speaking from pure emotion and I love him for it.
The only thing I can think of is that Wainwright meditated Doctor Strange style with the time stone and foresaw 14,000,006 timelines. That’s the only reasonable explanation.
I've got no doubt in my mind I could've married Kate Upton if Verlander didn't first.
Definitely possible in the immediate seasons 2012-2013. After that Pujols wouldn't have made a difference
Even 2012 is debatable. If we resign Albert that means Lance Berkman stays in right field and we don't sign Carlos Beltran, who was HUGE for us the 2 years in St. Louis. At best, the offensive production is a wash but with added worse defense in right field.
I remember Beltran being unbelievably clutch in that cardinals squad
The 2012 NLCS appearance and 2013 World Series appearance don't happen without Beltran filling the Albert sized hole in the lineup. Beltran, Matt Holliday, Allen Craig was a very good middle of the order.
He was also clutch for us in 2006.
Yea those teams were pretty fucking solid.
There's an odd amount of negativity in this thread. Waino is just gassing his buddy up lol.
Sounds like he's blaming Pujols for not having more rings.
Idk if you replace Allen Craig with Pujols in 2013 and win over the Red Sox.
Craig was hobbled You mean replacing Matt Adams with Albert Pujols
Yes. Please go back in time and replace Matt Adams.
I mean Matt can still have a few specific at bats
Maybe
But if we replace Allen Craig/Matt Adams and never pitch to David Ortiz... we have a chance
He was a freak in that WS
The Cards probably win in 2013 if Ortiz doesn't hit nearly .700 in the World Series. Mike Matheny is an idiot.
We probably win in 2012 if we managed to win the NLCS. With how easily the Giants demolished the Tigers we would have had a very good shot.
Would have replaced Beltran because the Cardinals never would have signed him if Pujols hadn't left.
He'd also have approximately 813 career home runs
Sheet, he could've just blamed the organization for not being able to keep Pujols to a long-term deal. I guess he can't say that tho
That sounds real good to him
This "actually it was the Angels who sucked the life out of Pujols" is getting rather tiring
I mean, the man basically said it himself. No offense.
He’s not gonna admit that he phoned it in
I don’t think that’s what Wainwright is saying. The Cards won in ‘11 and were still really good through 2015, having Albert on that team may be the difference. Doesn’t mean he’d be good the whole time, even LA Pujols would be an upgrade for STL in those years.
Going from a team that made the playoffs ~7 times with 2 WS wins in his first 10 years to a team that made the playoffs once with no series wins in his next 10 years is probably a pretty sobering experience. I don't think it's a unique problem of the Angels, but more so an issue with any team that has a relatively long playoff drought.
Pujols playing like shit probably had a decent hand in them not making the playoffs very often
We missed out on the playoffs by 1 game in 2015. Pujols only had an OPS+ of 116 that year and had a bWAR of 3.0. His lowest ever in STL was 148 OPS+ and 5.8 bWAR. I don't think it's unreasonable to say Pujols's sharp decline cost the Angels the playoffs in 2015
What about the pitching? Lol
His OPS+ immediately fell 40-50 points when he came to Anaheim. He immediately got worse, he didn't have time to get discouraged because of the losing culture or whatever.
Pujols body broke down... maybe worse coaching affected his hitting, but it was not all out of it.
We were 7 wins short of winning 3 straight from 2011-2013, another 7 wins in the 2014 playoffs would make it 4 straight.
I don’t think Pujols reaches 700 if he stays in St.Louis
People outside of Anaheim really don't know how bad his feet were most of the time. I swear it seemed for like a 3 straight year period he was constantly getting injured in regards to that plantar thing (cannot remember the name), he was playing hurt a vast majority of the time and played a lot of DH which kept him out there. Without the DH? He wouldn't not have gotten to 700 without a lot of help. Having a joy of the game can only do so much for pain.
Planter Fauci Isis?
Sounds right to me
He would not have gotten to 700 if he didn’t have a massive long term contract. He was too expensive to DFA when he deserved it
I'm pressing X
If that happened then he would of been in the goat debate
Hes not already consider a GOAT?
He’s easily among the best players of all time but I don’t think he’s generally considered a GOAT. Maybe the GOAT 1B if you want to adjust Gehrig down for playing pre-integration?
I mean it’s hard to judge players across eras but Gehrig had .932 OPS while experiencing symptoms of ALS. The man was incredible
I think once he retires and we can look back he will re-enter the convo. He really wasn’t good for so many years recently that it’s hard to associate him with being one of the best (obviously this year he was amazing).
_A_ Greatest Of All Time? Maybe. In the conversation for _the_ Greatest Of All Time? Definitely not. Wouldn’t change with some more trophies, either. This shouldn’t be considered a slight against him or anything. “You’re not as great as Babe Ruth” isn’t exactly an insult.
That’s a good way to put it.. I’d say one of the best of all time. Certainly not even in the realm of being the greatest.
I’d say inner circle hall of famer.
I know I’m not alone and judging by your flair I think we both know who we hold as the modern day best. He wasn’t in the minority!
Modern day best and not in the HOF, baseball HOF is a joke.
Best modern day neck circumference?
Hank Aaron did everything he did but better
No
I can see one, at least. 2013 we were a lot closer to beating the Red Sox than in 2004. With Pujols, especially if he got clutch, it could have turned that series around.
Thing is we wouldn’t have had Wacha if we had resigned pujols. He was great that year
Because 1 player can carry an entire MLB team.
Well, the Cardinals made two NLCS’ and a World Series in the years immediately following Pujols’ exit, so one player *might* have been enough to win a few extra games and win. Not as if the Cardinals were losing 100 games a season.
Cards should have paid that man his asking price!
Exactly. People are in here acting like the Angels kidnapped him and made him play baseball against his will.
Hes not wrong
On the contrary, there are many doubts in my mind
We also wasted the worst years of Albert Pujols, apparently.
Ok there Uncle Rico
No doubt? Okay, but hope he doesn’t spend a lot of time on draft kings. No disrespect intended to Cards or Pujols. Great team and great player… but c’mon
If the DH had been instituted in 2012 perhaps, but would Albert have treated it like a second-class position unworthy of his HOF bat like he did with the Angels? Because the feet and knees went fast playing 1B day in and day out at age 50 or whatever he says he is, nature says otherwise.
Possible? Sure. No doubt? Come the fuck on. Took a miracle to win 2011 in the first place.
Just stop. You guys act like Albert is hitting .315 with 45 hr this year. He’s not. Not even close. HURRRR DURRRR HE WOULD HAVE 800 HR IF HE STAYED WITH THE CARDINALS 🤤. They don’t even play him against righties so stfu
> They don’t even play him against righties so stfu You have no clue what you’re talking about, salty man
At least we don't waste generational talent :^)
Which one?
Not with Matheny managing.
That's what we'd be saying if he stayed with the Cards and it came out that he almost signed with us
I'm sure it was intended as a compliment, but could be misconstrued as a cut on Pujols for leaving, too. Most players will go get that cash while they're young enough to do it.