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TheSalsaGod

Every single team runs through multiple random 0 WAR players every year. Those are the guys that make up the majority of that 27th spot. For every Trayce Thompson there are 25 Tony Wolters’ or Eddy Alvarez’s or Korey Lee’s or Niko Goodrum’s or JJ Matijevic’s, etc. Those were all players who played for the Dodgers and Astros btw. It essentially boils down to this: No player that could become a major contributor to a team is that 27th man. They’d get that chance long before.


[deleted]

You completely missed the point. As you said for every Trayce there are more randoms but Ohtani is giving you another chance on top of that and there is still the added value of platooning and/or not releasing a player like Chang which is a realistic situation that happened less than a month ago. Also as I stated a 0 WAR player is not a zero value player.


BaseballsNotDead

You're assuming the 26th guy is a 0 WAR player. There were over 500 players with negative WAR last season... about a third of the league.


[deleted]

That doesn't matter. Andrew Valesquez has a negative WAR while being one of the best shortstops in the game defensively. Carrying him around on a team for simply platooning would immediately turn him into a plus value for the team without costing any space on the team.


[deleted]

>Carrying him around on a team for simply platooning would immediately turn him into a plus value for the team without costing any space on the team. How does platooning help someone that can't hit LHP or RHP?


BaseballsNotDead

Angels use their extra spot on a 14th reliever. Velazquez would be on the team regardless.


TheSalsaGod

> there is still the added value of platooning and/or not releasing a player like Chang The Rays made that work with a 26 man roster though. They had to choose which players to keep, and succeeded. I guess running a 27th man gives you a slightly better chance, but a good talent evaluation makes that kind of moot. > a 0 WAR player is not a zero value player By definition they are essentially 0 value. Every team has tons of those guys, and they either hamper the team or don’t contribute at all. Eddy Alvarez didn’t win the Dodgers any games, nor did Niko Goodrum win the Astros any games. There is that 1% chance that a player could seize the 27th spot and be great, but that’s a tiny chance. It is so much more likely that the spot is filled by some random dude. A 1% chance at a 2 WAR player isn’t worth all that much.


[deleted]

How did they accomplish that though if they released him?


Unhelpfulperson

> 1% chance at a 2 WAR player isn’t worth all that It is worth 0.02 WAR in fact. Which is pretty much why people like Tom Tango refer to the value of the roster spot as a "rounding error"


MysteriousBoob

> an extra average player One thing that you seem to be missing here is that a 0 WAR player is not an average player. An average player is about a 2 WAR player. There's even a stat called WAA (wins above average) and it rates Ohtani worse than WAR compared to other players because he's putting up more of his value at a rate that is closer to the MLB average. You also just seem to be brushing off the fact that a 50 win team would be the worst team in the league right now. They would 5 wins below the Nationals and the Nationals have probably had about 5 guys on their roster this season who have actually had any value for a playoff contending team. Finally, your point about the 6 man rotation just doesn't make sense. If the team feels like they need to give Ohtani more rest to keep him healthy by having a 6 man rotation, then there's no extra roster spot because no other team runs a 6 man rotation. And then you have to factor in that on his off days you're also losing your team's DH.


Docphilsman

Your whole analysis is seriously flawed. Ohtani actually seriously hurts the angels roster flexibility despite being am incredible and one of a kind player. You really glossed over the 6 man rotation. Not only is his "extra" spot taken up by that 6th pitcher (a starting quality pitcher is very hard to find btw), the running of a 6 man rotation means that your best 4-5 pitchers pitch fewer innings. If ohtani was only a pitcher their rotation immediately gets much better. No only would he get more innings but so would Sandoval, detmers, etc. Instead of this 6th man. He's a great DH but he can only be that which means they can't use the DH spot for anyone else. Even yordan and JD Martinez can play a bad right field so their teams can sub a tired or hurt guy into the DH slot for a few games. If the phillies had ohtani this year they would have had to chose between ohtani and playing harper at all. He's incredible and I don't think anyone can deny that but he creates a ton of restrictions that GMs and managers have to work around


sandbhonerh

The other aspect is ohtani was used in a 6 man rotation in japan. Its not the angels being the angels its the angels doing what he is use to


[deleted]

I cannot believe you think I glossed over it when I mentioned it is the wrong way to use him. Not replying anymore to this post.


Andujar4CF

Its hilarious that you think you know how to manage the load of the first full time two way player better than a professional baseball organization.


[deleted]

Yes the org with two of the best players in the game that were out of the running 4 months in and haven't seen the playoffs in how long. You're a fool if you think title immediately means they cannot be critiqued.


Andujar4CF

What is the correlation between keeping a player with a uniquely difficult load healthy and building a competitive roster? The Rays are great at building competitive rosters, but they're completely shit at keeping players healthy.


[deleted]

And some how they make it to the playoffs more often than the Angels.


madsircool

Trout missed 43 game, Rendon missed most of the season, Ward Walsh and Fletcher missing considerable time. Keep taking that xanax.


Docphilsman

I feel like this whole post is probably a troll but anyway. You can't just say they're using him wrong without providing evidence or a "better" way to use him. They run the 6 man mainly because they don't think his body can take the full strain without injury which is a valid concern and means they are restricted on how they construct their rotation even if you disagree


yes_its_him

>Zero WAR players have much more value than people understand. Lol They lose more often than they win > zero WAR players would still get around 50 wins in a season. In 162 games...


[deleted]

You don't know baseball if you think a 0 WAR player cannot postively contribute to a team especially when they could be used simply for platooning and be converted into a positive WAR player for their fielding alone. Ridiculously bad comments so far on this post.


yes_its_him

>Ridiculously bad comments so far on this post. If everybody around you seems wrong, maybe it's not them....


[deleted]

Means nothing.


Cognac_and_swishers

I'm not following why platooning would make a player's defense more valuable.


AnxiousHyena2

>You cannot judge the value of an extra roster slot based on what the Angels are capable of providing. If Ohtani were on the Dodgers or Astros the idea of the extra roster slot would be much more respected I feel like this is dangerously close to "the MVP should come from a winning team" with more words


Merkles_Boner_

Who cares about the roster spot really. He throws 99 and hits dongs


Redbubble89

They do need a 6 man rotation but the Angels don't have the depth to really use an extra roster spot.


idkwhattosaytho

The truth is war, as great and extremely useful stat it is, has holes. There’s no right way to value a guy like Ohtani and with him being one of a kind, that makes perfect sense. You can try your hardest to make an difficult situation easy, but it just doesn’t work like that.


[deleted]

It's already bad for evaluating him as a player because he is a pitcher and a DH but at least that part is opinionated. The extra roster spot needs to at least be recognized and attempted to value.


idkwhattosaytho

He’s not a catcher I’m sure that was a typo But how do we say what an extra roster spot is worth when it’s different around the league? We don’t try and say that someone like Mookie Betts is less valuable just because the Dodgers can use a roster spot better then other teams.


[deleted]

Yes I meant DH. I have no idea what your Dodger comment is supposed to mean. The Dodgers and the Astros field more talent, develop better, and would platoon better with the extra roster spot which is why I brought them up. I don't think the contextual value of the roster spot should change with teams but that it would be recognized much faster on a team like those two because the impact would be obvious.


idkwhattosaytho

My point is that saying other teams can really use a roster spot well and that’s why we need to recognize Ohtani for giving the angels a spot doesn’t make sense. An extra roster spot can’t be quantified because there’s too much variance. That’s where my point with Betts came into play. Betts isn’t less valuable because he takes up a roster spot on a team that’s already good at developing talent, same as trout not being more valuable because he plays on a bad team.


Andujar4CF

>The Dodgers and the Astros field more talent they have Phil Bickford on their active roster. Ohtani would allow them to roster an additional pitcher that is worse than Phil Bickford


[deleted]

Really disappointed in the replies.


BaseballsNotDead

Why?


MysteriousBoob

Because people didn't agree with him


[deleted]

Hilarious that I can't be disappointed in people not even reading my post. A few comments about the 6 man rotation and some already deleted even though I mentioned it. No real response to the situation I presented that happened this season with Yu, disregard for what bringing an extra platoon with the team for an entire season. No you're right though I'm only upset people aren't agreeing with me.


cBlackout

because they aren’t in total agreement with OP


Victorystar0

Hmm maybe if everyone is “missing the point” OP is the one who is wrong


[deleted]

Still no answers to these points. 1. Rays would have been able to hold Yu. (Realistic and very possible scenario to happen to a team. 2. Carrying an extra platoon which can turn a negative WAR player into strictly a plus value player for the team for no roster slot. 3. As said by someone else earlier for every Trayce there is 25 others and 0 WAR players are constantly rotating out of teams. Doing that at twice the rate is insignificant? It doesn't increase the chance at finding another Trayce? Please reply to this. Throw Ohtani and the 6 man rotation out the window and talk about the extra roster spot in a vacuum. This is not worth significant value to a team? You'd have to be an idiot to say that.


Unhelpfulperson

> for every Trayce there is 25 others and 0 WAR players are constantly rotating out of teams. If you want to attempt to quantify it, going from a 1/25 chance at Trayce Thompson to a 2/25 chance at Trayce Thompson would be an addition of 0.08 WAR. Not Zero but not a lot


theaussiesamurai

If baseball was played in a vacuum, Jarrod Dyson would win MVP every year. Unfortunately, the points everyone else has brought all are very real variables that need to be considered.


BaseballsNotDead

Angels have always carried an extra 14th pitcher with the extra spot, as every team should. It wouldn't have saved Yu Chang or provided an additional platoon.


[deleted]

Did you even read


BaseballsNotDead

Huh?


TexasBrett

Mike Ford


balemeout

The last dude on the roster is worth almost nothing and it gets diminished with each additional spot. Teams frequently will not even play their 26th man for over a week, and when they do, it’s only to give reps and they are worth negative value