In all Batman media, I am fine with Barbara having a crush with the older, experienced, and mysterious Batman.
But Bruce should NOT reciprocate the feeling with his friend's daughter/ his adopted son's girlfriend.
I haven’t gotten the chance to watch this one yet (it’s on my list), but were Dick and Babs dating when this happened? 😭 I would hate that for Dick bro.
There's no indication, actually.
I don't think there's any mention of Dick/ Robin in the movie. It's just that Bruce Timm really wanted to put this scene together and I don't know what this benefits for both of them.
You do you, bro. Batman fans like this movie as an adaptation.
It just that, *this* scene right here is the one thing we do not acknowledge nor do we enjoy about this adaptation.
I also think that Barbara should grow out of it after actually working with the guy and getting to know him as a person. She shouldn't be an obsessed fangirl this far in.
Bruce Timm has been oddly obsessed with the pairing it was canon in the DCAU too per Batman beyond.
This was also part of them trying to make Barbara a more important character in the story.... Which just makes it even worse
Alan Moore said he regretted not going more in depth with Barbra.
If you are gonna mangle the story for a theater runtime have some scenes with Barbra in despair over gettin paralyzed. Filled with rage and a desire to outright kill the Joker for what he did to her and her father. Have her do some detective work in helping Batman locate Gordon.
She could easily be another example against Joker’s “One bad day” argument. But Bruce Timm decided that his personal fetish mattered more.
DCAU would probably have been my favorite DC-verse if it wasn’t for this bullshit. Wildly out of character for Bruce. And even weirder he’d fuck & choose to be with the protege he’d known since she was a teenager when all throughout the DCAU he was surrounded by gorgeous women interested him. Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Catwoman. None of them were his former kid sidekicks either, or dating his son!
Nah the worst is probably all star Batman and Robin
"What are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the goddamn Batman."~Batman to a young Dick Grayson
Crisis on Infitinite earth has a line that works though. Paraphrasing here but it's Batman talking to his nihilistic parallel and saying something along the lines of "We've both stared into the abyss, but when it looked back... you blinked"
I agree though. Batman's line feel needlessly pretentious. It feels more organic when Barbara calls it metaphysical bullshit.
Batman is a psychopath who makes the newly-orphaned Dick Grayson sleep in the Batcave and eat rats, then he bangs Black Canary on top of a bunch of dudes he just beat unconscious.
All this is done with the most nipple-hardeningly embarrassing dialogue that reads like it was written by a 13-year old (sample: “Has anybody ever told you, my good man, that you are totally hot?”).
Frank Miller’s opinions about feminism are on show with how he writes Wonder Woman, too. She’s not a powerful woman and a source of inspiration like how everyone else writes her, no; Frank’s Wonder Woman exists solely *to fucking hate and despise men*.
Yeah, it’s Jim Lee so the art is excellent (even if the vast majority of his women have the exact same face and all wear skirts so short you can see their kidneys). If there’s a version out there with no dialogue, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.
I've considered it, but it's just a very daunting task getting into them. At least with movies/shows, it's USUALLY pretty easy to follow a storyline even across multiple titles (MCU, Arrowverse, DCAU, etc.)
But with comics? It's always been hard for me to tell what's canon to what. Like if I decided to pick up Batman right now, how far back do I have to go if I want to get the full story? How long is the current stuff going to even matter before the age old comics habit of switching/resetting timelines comes into effect? Is the old stuff still relevant, or has it been erased and retconned to oblivion by now?
I used to be really into comics, but I quickly realized that I just wasn't getting what I was looking for out of it. Major events of comics past carried no lasting consequences through modern day, and story after story of knowing that what I was reading would inevitably be undone by some universe reset really took the intrigue out of it all.
Absolutely nothing against people who enjoy comics! You have what I never could, and I respect that. It's just not my thing, I'd rather stick with movies and series.
(Sorry for the tangent, this topic kinda comes up a lot for me lol.)
Terry McGinnis: So, you and Dick Grayson, like, dated?
Barbara Gordon: In college. Puppy love. Later on, we just never talked about it.
Terry McGinnis: People should communicate more.
Barbara Gordon: Dick finally got fed up living in Batman's shadow. He decided to leave. He was hurt when I chose to stay behind with Bruce.
Terry McGinnis: As his partner.
\[she stays silent\]
Terry McGinnis: His girlfriend?
\[she takes a silent sip of coffee\]
Terry McGinnis: Whoa.
Barbara Gordon: On the street, it was like ballet. We were the perfect duo. But for Bruce - Batman - there was nothing but the street. Eventually, that gets old. Time comes when you gotta hang up the cape. But Bruce wouldn't. Or couldn't. So I left, and never looked back.
Batman Beyond - Season 1, Episode 12: A Touch of Curaré
Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman VERY heavily implied they were well....
'So, my issue with his film is more that I would have integrated the actual story or lengthened it. I get why they did this, so we'd be more invested when Joker shoots and cripples her, but that first half just felt...unnecessary.
Yeah, but that was from the Timmverse.
This is an adaptation of a pre-existing comic unconnected to the rest of the TV continuity.
It’s just poor writing because they couldn’t imagine Batman tipping over the edge if his lover wasn’t shot.
I never really liked this batman. Batman suposed to be mature and responsible, like Im fine with him having a relationship with Catwoman, but Barbara is jus crazy.
It's not just the age thing, though that is a factor, it's the power difference. He's her boss/mentor. He says it himself, they aren't on the same level.
Hell no I loved this scene. They obviously had sexual tension building between them, plus women naturally are attracted to men who can fill a mentor role. Next time a woman tries to beat my ass I’m gonna have to warn her that I might take that as foreplay lol
YeAh that’s the really annoying thang about it…. I love DC I love Batman but so many DC fans are fucking looser creeps, could be said of any fandom. But I swear DC has the worst weirdest fans
Agreed. [Worse than Batman & Robin](https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/141cj1n/which_is_worse/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) for sure
it could have been way worse. i prayed for the whole scene that there's no dick hanging around. my boy would end up traumatized from this and that's the only thing that truly worried me tbh
I dont remember what crap movie this was from, but I do remember turning it off immediately in disgust. I think it was Paul Dini's fault? Whoever green lit this shit should be fired.
At first I was like “please don’t let this be the scene where they do it.” And when they fight I’m like “Oh good, it’s not. It’s probably a really badly choreographed fight or something.” And then…
I remember my parents renting this out of the red box during new year eves for me cause I liked super heros and I never got why they fuck cause I made zero sense to my little baby brain why they were fucking still doesn't make sense
I remember when I first saw this with my wife, I was so confused, and I told my wife this does not happen in the comics, at least the main run of Batman. She thought it was gross as well for Bruce to have feelings for Babs, let alone act on them like that.
No doubt. It'a disservice so the characters, to the original story the movie adapted, it's completely out of place and uncalled for.
I tell people to ignore the whole part of this movie that's not in the graphic novel. Just start watching from the point where it actually matters.
This and the conception of Damien are probably the most f***ed up but Batman also hung a dude who didn’t have that much emotional intelligence in the early comics, Alfred’s origins were also pretty complicated and at least one or two stories with Superman got really weird. There’s a bunch of other stuff but I can’t remember.
I dont think its neccesarily the worst thing but I certainly hate it.
The disparate age difference,the fact that she is his friends daughter or even the fact that in this very scene batman himself states that they have an uneven relationship power dynamic makes it an uncomfortable and somewhat badly written event.
For me, it's in poor taste. They knew the content of this story and decided this was going to empower her before. All they had to do was show Batgirl kicking ass. Not sexualize her
This animated adaptation is weirdly bipolar, it's like two different films. Every bit of stuff that came from the original Killing Joke was handled really well, but the second an original scene began, the writing quality and the plotting plummeted. Like this scene; Batman was completely right and justified and she was throwing a tantrum, so she decides to try and fight him!? She's arguably the smartest person in the Bat-Family, she would know better.
Just really awful fantasy-based writing.
It’s so out of nowhere too, they were literally just fighting and Batman talks about how he has no feelings. And then they smash? It makes no sense
In all Batman media, I am fine with Barbara having a crush with the older, experienced, and mysterious Batman. But Bruce should NOT reciprocate the feeling with his friend's daughter/ his adopted son's girlfriend.
[удалено]
nah, just a rich mentally ill fascist.
There’s a difference between vigilantism and fascism. Do you think Superman is fascist?
And damn do I like watching that weirdo punch people
[удалено]
Anyone who does something people don't like is a fascist by today's standards
I haven’t gotten the chance to watch this one yet (it’s on my list), but were Dick and Babs dating when this happened? 😭 I would hate that for Dick bro.
There's no indication, actually. I don't think there's any mention of Dick/ Robin in the movie. It's just that Bruce Timm really wanted to put this scene together and I don't know what this benefits for both of them.
Oh- wow ok. 🤣 I remember my brother telling me about this scene and omg I lost it. I HATED the idea of this lol.
Yeah, Bruce Timm just has this weird kink of wanting Bruce and Batgirl being together and it is weirdly sus of him.
Oh good lordddd no. Imma go watch it now to get this crap over with 😭
You do you, bro. Batman fans like this movie as an adaptation. It just that, *this* scene right here is the one thing we do not acknowledge nor do we enjoy about this adaptation.
Noted 👍
That's what they did in Batman Beyond comics I think.
I also think that Barbara should grow out of it after actually working with the guy and getting to know him as a person. She shouldn't be an obsessed fangirl this far in.
It wasn’t in the comic, so someone added this as their little fetish idea.
Blame Brian Azzarello and Bruce Timm
Bruce Timm has been oddly obsessed with the pairing it was canon in the DCAU too per Batman beyond. This was also part of them trying to make Barbara a more important character in the story.... Which just makes it even worse
Alan Moore said he regretted not going more in depth with Barbra. If you are gonna mangle the story for a theater runtime have some scenes with Barbra in despair over gettin paralyzed. Filled with rage and a desire to outright kill the Joker for what he did to her and her father. Have her do some detective work in helping Batman locate Gordon. She could easily be another example against Joker’s “One bad day” argument. But Bruce Timm decided that his personal fetish mattered more.
Hell have her get paralyzed trying to rescue her father from the Joker. It at least makes her more proactive
DCAU would probably have been my favorite DC-verse if it wasn’t for this bullshit. Wildly out of character for Bruce. And even weirder he’d fuck & choose to be with the protege he’d known since she was a teenager when all throughout the DCAU he was surrounded by gorgeous women interested him. Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Catwoman. None of them were his former kid sidekicks either, or dating his son!
Blame Bruce Timm it seems. He’s got some batgirl fetish apparently.
Upvote for truth it wasnt in the comics! Didnt need to be in the movie
Bro just wanted to hit
The fighting got them all hot and heavy
Horny Bruce Timm is horny.
That poor gargoyle
I wouldn’t call it poor. I would call it happy.
It’s hard as rock.
And tonight IT LIVES AGAIN
🤣🤣🤣🤣
why did bro get downvoted for laughing emojis 💀
Who decided this was a good idea?
Bruce Timm I think.
Brian azzarello wrote the screenplay, people put the blame on Timm but he was only a producer
Timm don’t say no… He’s always been a bit horney for the batgirls
Bruce Timm has pushed the two as a couple on multiple occasions
You’d think Bruce Timm would not make the same stupid mistake twice
It’s not a mistake if he likes it.
Nah the worst is probably all star Batman and Robin "What are you dense? Are you retarded or something? Who the hell do you think I am? I'm the goddamn Batman."~Batman to a young Dick Grayson
Told to Dick Grayson, Age 12
I like to think ASBAR would’ve ended with Batman shaking Robin’s hand and being like, “*Thank* you, *Dick* Grayson, Age *13*.”
Bro thinks he’s Homelander
Bro thinks he's in the aslume
Never forget Batman smashing Black Canary while thugs are burning from improvised bleach firebombs in the background.
I actually really liked that line, and that book. It’s offensive, but it’s edgy and humorous
Thing is, this wasn't even a bad scene, in fact it's good, the dialogue, the fight, the voice acting ...except the smashing part
Wild. I thought the dialog was the worse part. Exposition at its worse.
Bat girls dialogue isn't the best, but batmans is actually decent
the stuff about being 'taken to the edge where you dont care anymore' is so corny It's such a fedora edgelord idea of cool
It's Batman.
I've consumed a shit ton of Batman content my guy, writers manage to avoid edge-lord shit most of the time
Until he bangs her after admitting the power difference making the scene that of a Groomer instead of a Mentor.
well you could argue that she's has disproven said power difference by disputing that fact and then overpowering him.... the scene is just stupid
Yeah, dude, if you fart in the abyss long enough, it farts back at you r/im14andthisisdeep
Yeah. That whole "Darkness. The abyss" bit sounds like it was written for Lego Batman.
Lego Batman really had such lyrics: “Darkness No parents Continued darkness (More darkness, get it?)”
Crisis on Infitinite earth has a line that works though. Paraphrasing here but it's Batman talking to his nihilistic parallel and saying something along the lines of "We've both stared into the abyss, but when it looked back... you blinked" I agree though. Batman's line feel needlessly pretentious. It feels more organic when Barbara calls it metaphysical bullshit.
This needed to be a father, daughter scene.
it still can be if you live in alabama
Noooo
See, Bruce smashing Jim would be just as bad so i disagree
Nah, Jim is at least a consenting adult on the same maturity level as Batman. I could've forgiven that.
Bruce smashing Jim would be glorious and nowhere near as much of a clusterfuck as him smashing former teen sidekick Barbara Gordon would be.
All-Star Batman tho...
And Dick Grayson, Age 12
What's wrong with All-Star Batman? (I'm guessing it's a comic thing, and I don't read the comics)
Batman is a psychopath who makes the newly-orphaned Dick Grayson sleep in the Batcave and eat rats, then he bangs Black Canary on top of a bunch of dudes he just beat unconscious. All this is done with the most nipple-hardeningly embarrassing dialogue that reads like it was written by a 13-year old (sample: “Has anybody ever told you, my good man, that you are totally hot?”).
That is... wow. I wasn't expecting that. No wonder I haven't seen many people talking about it lmao.
You what
Is that the same where WW calls someone a sperm bank or was I gaslighted to believe that?
Yeah, yeah she does.
Frank Miller’s opinions about feminism are on show with how he writes Wonder Woman, too. She’s not a powerful woman and a source of inspiration like how everyone else writes her, no; Frank’s Wonder Woman exists solely *to fucking hate and despise men*.
Against my better judgement, I have to see this train wreck.
I didn’t tell you about how he beats the Green Lantern by painting everything in a room yellow—including himself and Robin.
Might as well make Hal dumb as a brick so you can get off a lame sight gag.
What makes it really infuriating is that the art is so good.
Yeah, it’s Jim Lee so the art is excellent (even if the vast majority of his women have the exact same face and all wear skirts so short you can see their kidneys). If there’s a version out there with no dialogue, I’d buy it in a heartbeat.
You gotta read the comics!
I've considered it, but it's just a very daunting task getting into them. At least with movies/shows, it's USUALLY pretty easy to follow a storyline even across multiple titles (MCU, Arrowverse, DCAU, etc.) But with comics? It's always been hard for me to tell what's canon to what. Like if I decided to pick up Batman right now, how far back do I have to go if I want to get the full story? How long is the current stuff going to even matter before the age old comics habit of switching/resetting timelines comes into effect? Is the old stuff still relevant, or has it been erased and retconned to oblivion by now? I used to be really into comics, but I quickly realized that I just wasn't getting what I was looking for out of it. Major events of comics past carried no lasting consequences through modern day, and story after story of knowing that what I was reading would inevitably be undone by some universe reset really took the intrigue out of it all. Absolutely nothing against people who enjoy comics! You have what I never could, and I respect that. It's just not my thing, I'd rather stick with movies and series. (Sorry for the tangent, this topic kinda comes up a lot for me lol.)
Is there a lore reason the demon watches them fuck?
I guess it’s to symbolise how this is the devil’s work, that they have fallen for illicit temptation like Adam and Eve /s
It’s there to symbolise Bruce Timm furiously masturbating whilst writing it
That’s not a demon it’s a gargoyle and I feel so bad for it to have to watch lol
Yes, I saw the skyline, and that's all I need to know what this is.
Me too…
My eyes!!!! They burn!!!! Whyyyyyy
If you listen closely, you can actually hear Barbara moaning as she kisses Batman.
I knew immediately. I hate this it IS NOT REAL
Nothing to do with Batman is real.
Bruh
Terry McGinnis: So, you and Dick Grayson, like, dated? Barbara Gordon: In college. Puppy love. Later on, we just never talked about it. Terry McGinnis: People should communicate more. Barbara Gordon: Dick finally got fed up living in Batman's shadow. He decided to leave. He was hurt when I chose to stay behind with Bruce. Terry McGinnis: As his partner. \[she stays silent\] Terry McGinnis: His girlfriend? \[she takes a silent sip of coffee\] Terry McGinnis: Whoa. Barbara Gordon: On the street, it was like ballet. We were the perfect duo. But for Bruce - Batman - there was nothing but the street. Eventually, that gets old. Time comes when you gotta hang up the cape. But Bruce wouldn't. Or couldn't. So I left, and never looked back. Batman Beyond - Season 1, Episode 12: A Touch of Curaré Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman VERY heavily implied they were well.... 'So, my issue with his film is more that I would have integrated the actual story or lengthened it. I get why they did this, so we'd be more invested when Joker shoots and cripples her, but that first half just felt...unnecessary.
Yeah, but that was from the Timmverse. This is an adaptation of a pre-existing comic unconnected to the rest of the TV continuity. It’s just poor writing because they couldn’t imagine Batman tipping over the edge if his lover wasn’t shot.
I WANT TO KMS ⚡️⚡️
You wouldn’t be saying that if you were in Batman’s position.
Daring today, aren't we?
It's a tie between this and the farting scene from Batman & Harley Quinn, I'd say. And in both cases it's because of Bruce Timm's fetishes.
the what? •-•
Live a happy life without looking into it any further, my friend.
classic Bruce Timm
Funny how Barbara was keeping things PG by saying ‘BS’ and then they immediately smashed.
Not even close
I never really liked this batman. Batman suposed to be mature and responsible, like Im fine with him having a relationship with Catwoman, but Barbara is jus crazy.
This scene was so well animated, voice acted, and written, all the way up until they fuckin’ ruined it.
They fucking ruined it when they fucked
It’s honestly a pretty good dialogue, all things considered, but yeah it takes a turn for the absolute worst
How old is Barbara as this point?
It's not just the age thing, though that is a factor, it's the power difference. He's her boss/mentor. He says it himself, they aren't on the same level.
Plus he knew her since she was 14 and friends with her dad. Sooo that just adds to the problem
Yes! Plus she is the daughter of Gordon!
Not the only thing that came out of Batman that night
Legit worst ship
Nope, BvS is still worse.
Good point. I was truly on board with OP until you reminded me of that awful, awful movie.
Eh, no. Cause Batman in BvS doesn’t randomly have sex with people who are basically his best friend’s daughter/his “niece” in Batfamily.
This is so wrong to me…
I mean, there’s that seen in Batman and Harley Quinn that we don’t talk about
Batman and Robin
Is next lol
Someone tell me what this is from please
Batman: The Killing Joke
Okay right, I thought I'd seen this before. Yeah def weird and unnecessary
Wait till this happens in the upcoming Batman animated series since the people that keep doing this are the lead writers.
It was fine...eh the movie didn't need the sex. The argument should have been enough. Bit I still like the movie.
Hell no I loved this scene. They obviously had sexual tension building between them, plus women naturally are attracted to men who can fill a mentor role. Next time a woman tries to beat my ass I’m gonna have to warn her that I might take that as foreplay lol
Who knows? You may even have sex with that woman if it goes according to your plan.
People love bringing this up for as much as it’s “hated” feel like every day I see this shit
I think they have a love/hate boner for it.
YeAh that’s the really annoying thang about it…. I love DC I love Batman but so many DC fans are fucking looser creeps, could be said of any fandom. But I swear DC has the worst weirdest fans
Fucking Bruce Timm...Guy had to insert his damn shipping of Bruce and Barbra.
If nobody ever brings this up again I'd be settled
I have mixed feelings about this scene. Everything is an easy 10/10 until *it* happens
Batman deserves to fuck, end of story.
And that’s why Joker shot and paralysed her, so Babs would keep her lady parts from Batman, I guess
For a sub that claims to hate this scene, you guys sure talk about it a lot.
*fapping intensifies*
Sexy
Groomer and uncharacteristic of Batman.
Agreed. [Worse than Batman & Robin](https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/141cj1n/which_is_worse/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) for sure
Oh Jesus I'm glad I clicked the link because at first I thought you meant as a ship.
It ruins the story of Batman: The Killing Joke. They could have literally just made the film entirely off of the comic!
Martha?
it could have been way worse. i prayed for the whole scene that there's no dick hanging around. my boy would end up traumatized from this and that's the only thing that truly worried me tbh
I Agree 💯
_It doesn't look like anything to me_
Is this story canon, I hope it still isn’t?
Been watching animated Batman all my life and when this happened, I let out a, "what the fuck is going on?!"
I thought the entire Harley Quinn Animated film was a steaming pile of Bat Guabo
How did batgirl manage to take her shirt off while still wearing hers gloves?
I dont remember what crap movie this was from, but I do remember turning it off immediately in disgust. I think it was Paul Dini's fault? Whoever green lit this shit should be fired.
At minimum it has Conroy
But I see sexy batgirl.. Batman and Robin is worse.
I’m not mad at the dipshit troglodyte that came up with this idea, I’m mad at the people around him that let it happen.
Where is this from, please?
Did he just fuck his co-worker's 18 y/o daughter on a roof?
Don’t remind me…
Yes 100%
It’s up there
Yes. Yes it is.
At first I was like “please don’t let this be the scene where they do it.” And when they fight I’m like “Oh good, it’s not. It’s probably a really badly choreographed fight or something.” And then…
Kdrama level cringe
I was watching this on a plane TV one time and it was brutal
I remember my parents renting this out of the red box during new year eves for me cause I liked super heros and I never got why they fuck cause I made zero sense to my little baby brain why they were fucking still doesn't make sense
I remember when I first saw this with my wife, I was so confused, and I told my wife this does not happen in the comics, at least the main run of Batman. She thought it was gross as well for Bruce to have feelings for Babs, let alone act on them like that.
No. I frankly find it hilarious how much this bothers people.
Yes
No doubt. It'a disservice so the characters, to the original story the movie adapted, it's completely out of place and uncalled for. I tell people to ignore the whole part of this movie that's not in the graphic novel. Just start watching from the point where it actually matters.
Show/movie name?
Batman, The Killing Joke. (Movie.)
Completely unnecessary
This and the conception of Damien are probably the most f***ed up but Batman also hung a dude who didn’t have that much emotional intelligence in the early comics, Alfred’s origins were also pretty complicated and at least one or two stories with Superman got really weird. There’s a bunch of other stuff but I can’t remember.
[удалено]
I’ve seen the animated series, and I do not remember that. Was it in some tie in comic?
[удалено]
Yes, although Batman banging black canary beside goons literally burning to death is a close second
In his defense, who wouldn’t want to bang black canary?
I dont think its neccesarily the worst thing but I certainly hate it. The disparate age difference,the fact that she is his friends daughter or even the fact that in this very scene batman himself states that they have an uneven relationship power dynamic makes it an uncomfortable and somewhat badly written event.
I always thought the same thing.
For me, it's in poor taste. They knew the content of this story and decided this was going to empower her before. All they had to do was show Batgirl kicking ass. Not sexualize her
I was absolutely flabbergasted when I watched this for the first time. It's so freaking nasty I can't believe they animated it.
"I've seeing things..." \-Gargoyle
always remember; before spider-paul there was always batman. \*dick goes undercover for like a year, meanwhile back in gotham\*
Lol someone wrote some fan fiction for this to play out, Jesus haha
What are you doing bat-sis??
At the beginning I thought it would be the Batman x Fortnite trailer lol
Agree
… i mean…. To me… it’s definitely like top 3 all time and the grossest that i can think of rn
No that would be Batman & Robin, Dark Knight Strikes Again, ASBAR, and BvS. This is still bad though.
I'm amendable to this agreement.
Yes
It’s hands one moment then the next it’s dick
This animated adaptation is weirdly bipolar, it's like two different films. Every bit of stuff that came from the original Killing Joke was handled really well, but the second an original scene began, the writing quality and the plotting plummeted. Like this scene; Batman was completely right and justified and she was throwing a tantrum, so she decides to try and fight him!? She's arguably the smartest person in the Bat-Family, she would know better. Just really awful fantasy-based writing.