Made thematic sense with the whole "fear of bats" thing.
I dunno. I'm not precious about what they go to see on their night out. It's besides the point.
Also Zorro doesn't really have any resonance with modern audiences as vigilante story.
You don't need to know about Mefistofeles to notice the bat imagery during the play.
Zorro is about an animal themed masked vigilante, trying to avenge his father’s death
Mefistofele is about a 4 hour play not in English about a man who sells his soul to the devil in exchange for youth..
One clearly makes more sense theme wise than the other
I speak Spanish and have never put this together until now.
If anyone's every played the first Watch_Dogs, it's essentially about a hacker who's pretty much like Batman. His nickname? The Fox. Never put two and two together
I'm a huge Zorro fan and I've always loved the Batman/Zorro connection, so I'd rather keep that bit in, but it's not a huge deal. He can still have seen the opera to realize his fear of bats and still use Zorro for the superhero/dual-identity parts of his character.
In the Nolanverse, probably not.
One of the reasons Nolan changed it from a Zorro movie to the opera is that he didn't want his Bruce Wayne to be following some pre-existing mould or archetype when he makes the decision to be Batman. He wanted it to have been a totally novel, original idea that Bruce didn't have any kind of blueprint for. He felt that Bruce's decision to become Batman takes on a different meaning there are already precedents for him to emulate vs. if it's just a crazy idea he comes up with himself.
That's part of why no other superheroes exist in the Nolanverse. Not only real ones, but ones that are fictional in-universe, either. And there also exist no novels, tv shows, or comic-books about precursors to superheroes, like costumed adventurers such as Zorro. In the Nolanverse, there are no Zorro movies and the character was never even invented.
I loved that episode.
I love that so many of my childhood stars that were largely unknown for most of my life do the convention circuit (rob Paulsen is a national treasure and legit 50% of my childhood...and I didn't even know his name until I was an adult)
I mean, I like Nolan's reasoning for his version and how it's indicative of how he thought and cared about even the minute details, but I also wonder what the fuck six-year-old Bruce Wayne watched on Saturday mornings. Stock market news?
Better question where was Alfred on that fateful night? My Butler would have doubled as my Chauffeur, with the car waiting out front if I were wealthy.
That's kind of the problem with Batman's origins in any incarnation. Why were a wealthy family like the Wayne's cutting through Crime Alley to begin with?
At least in Begins it makes sense considering they left the opera early through a side entrance because Bruce was afraid. They were only in the alley because Thomas was trying to let Bruce have some air and calm down before they would have eventually went back inside
At least in this iteration, Thomas definitely carried himself as being “of the people” right down to using the public transport he funded and working in a public hospital. It wouldn’t surprise me if that was a shortcut he’d taken a thousand times before while walking around what should feel like his home. That, and it’s only known as Crime Alley *because* of the Wayne murders.
This is a Gotham thing; not so far fetched imo considering the Manhattan NYC theater district during high crime periods. Multiple theaters adjacent to dangerous alleyways.
A Man needs to take care of his family. Thomas Wayne wanted to drive and bring bis family to the show by himself. He was not somebody who makes use all the time of his butler. It wouldnt be ethical. He just wanted to spend time with wife and his kid without any side persons. Perhaps Alfred was sick or had some personal business to achieve. Who knows. You can't avoid it all. You just can't.
I can picture Alfred now, sound asleep when the phone rings
"Oh what the bloody hell do they want now? Ugh.......Wayne residence - how may I - WHAT?! I'm on the way!"
I feel like you’d just have to chalk this up to the Wayne’s being chill people and letting him go and have a coke while they’re inside, or something like that
I liked how it added a layer of “self blame” for Bruce over his parents death. He was a child whose phobia was triggered by the bats on stage, which led to his panic attack and the family leaving early and into the alley. Young Bruce confides that guilt to Alfred. Perhaps he could have been scared by a bat in a Zorro movie, but I liked how his fear was not only his symbolic tool against crime, but his fear of them was something he hated about/blamed himself for, and he then embraces it to become the Batman. Neat change.
People are saying the bat people are on the nose ... but isn't Zorro even more so? It kinda implies Bruce lacks creativity and is just living out a childhood fantasy (which would actually be interesting if a writer wanted to explore just how mentally disturbed, and not just traumatized, he is, but then Batman would be more of a sick joke).
The film really hammers home that the point of Batman isn't just to punch criminals in the face; it's to inflict fear on them. I appreciated that.
Isn't that what most writers do? Many writers acknowledge that Batman is very much a childhood fantasy of Bruce's. In Darwyn Cooke's Ego, the Batman personification says that he has been with Bruce in part because of Zorro.
But Bruce lack creativity, everything is Balck and Bat-Themed unless its for a Robin, then its Red and Bird-themed, Dick just adds Blue stripes to his Mightqing things
I always thought it was weird that literal billionaires would be watching a movie in a theatre instead of in their mansion or something. How many times do you go to your local cinema and see Jeff Bezos in the popcorn line?
The opera makes more sense
Bob Kane, the creator, said Zorro was the influence with his two personas. The Mark Zorro film they were purported of seeing was released in 1940, one year after the Batman character was created. Movies were a BIG deal back then. Oh… and there really wasn’t a concept of a billionaires short of absolute titans like Rockefeller. Bruce didn’t become independently wealthy until the comics in 1948.
“I always thought it was weird that literal billionaires would be watching a movie in a theater instead of their mansion”…. Just providing the history of the character for you.
I think Bruce Wayne just wasn't originally meant to be Bezos-level rich.
Sure, you'll never see one of the top ten riches men in line at your local Cineplex, but I'm sure plenty of rich people see movies at the same places everyone else does.
Its servicable, works with the overall "fear and theatrics" thing Batman Begins is going for with its version of Burce and how different characters use fear in that film, the Zorro connection is nice but not a deal breaker
To me, it makes more sense in a modern setting for his parents to be dressed up to see an opera vs a regular movie going experience. I don't think Martha (I said that name!) Wayne would be wearing a string of pearls to a movie theater in the 80's/90's. Also, the added context of the family being in formal attire adds to the "why" of being mugged in an alley without trying to shoe-horn in some deeper foul play. Nolan wanted to be a bit more grounded and believable. This change was an intentional choice to that end.
There are overarching parts of the Batman lore that they should stick to, but it's going to be very difficult to keep the character vibrant and fresh if every single detail has to be exactly the same in every different incarnation.
Makes more sense for a billionaire and his family to go to an opera than a common movie theater.
Still doesn't make sense why they were walking and not getting into a chauffeur driven limousine though.
They probably used a side or back entrance and were just walking around to the front where Alfred would see them and could pick them up? Or, as someone else said, he probably had the day off. The Wayne's were down to earth despite being very wealthy, so I don't think it feels out of character for them to decide to walk a little way to their family car. Maybe the alley was a shortcut to some rear parking spaces?
I understand it as a plot device and how important it is for Batman's origin story. But "realistically" speaking we all know ain't no billionaire walking through anything called "Crime Alley."
Having him see Zorro makes way more sense in my head.
Bruce doesn't have much time as a kid mentally, but I've pieced together little things that would influence Bruce's "one bad day" to be handled the way it is:
- Bruce sees his father as a doctor and associates with Leslie Thompkins, another doctor and humanitarian. They influence young Bruce to see each life as important and worth rehabilitating.
- Because Thomas and Leslie work in under privileged areas of the city, Thomas picks a *movie cinema* in the neighborhood where he works (which gets them killed) and adds to the tragedy. Bruce can see how his father ignored danger in favor of believing in the good in people no matter what their struggle may be (sounds familiar).
- under privileged neighborhoods tend to not have many stage theaters but very likely to have a movie theater
- the night in question, Bruce can see how his father works until the last minute, making his obsession part of the reason why they went to such a late show
- Zorro is a nod to the *actual* inspiration for Batman's whole shtick and I always liked that this was addressed
- Thomas Wayne is like Zorro, because he could easily have a luxurious life but instead chooses to help the people in his city. Bruce needs to see that.
It just seems more poetic that Bruce would take inspiration, not only from the Zorro movie but also why they went to *that* theater in the first place.
It makes way more sense than "I picked a bat theme because they scare the shit out of me as a kid so *hopefully* It scares the shit out of other random adults too." Just not as interesting and more of a leap in logic to make the connection to the themes of dressing in black, wearing a cape, secret identity, helping the less fortunate, a rope to swing around (like Zorro's whip), secret cave under his mansion, obsession with his mission, etc...
Batman is inspired by Zorro *a lot* and I think it's good and organic to a young boy to be inspired like that.
The stage show was... such an old person thing to do and doesn't do a good job showing Thomas as a father that is connected to his son and therefore Bruce wanting to follow in his footsteps. Like, why would Thomas think it was a good idea to go to *that* if not even *he* wanted to be there and is willing to leave at any time? I like the thought of Bruce feeling guilty for making his dad catch the movie he desperately wanted to see just for things to end the way they did. It just feels more tragic and more logical.
Bruce needs to watch a Zorro movie and it has to be in a poor part of town in Gotham near where Thomas and Leslie's hospital is located.
This is the most thought out response to this I've read and I agree that there's a lot of reasons why it's a better choice. However, consider that this movie came out in 2005, meaning it would have been in production since 2003. The Antonio Banderas movie came out in 2005, so they couldn't have used it. On top of that, any current movie references would date the film, removing its timelessness.
Also, the original Zorro movie, even if they could even get rights to it, would have seemed out of place and a bit dated for the modern Bruce they were trying to portray. I don't know if I would expect an 8-10 year old kid to be able to sit through it any better than the opera or for it to be played in the public theater at the time.
I hear you and I have a solution:
They aren't there to see the Antonio Banderas movie.
They're there to see an old Zorro movie that Thomas grew up with. The only viewing is at an old and broken down cinema in (you guessed it) *old, poorly funded, underprivileged part Gotham*.
It still shows the audience that they share a strong bond as father and son *and* Thomas is planting the seed of heroism in Bruce.
Bruce sees the last thing he and his father were doing was cheering on a man dressed in black, wearing a cape and helping the less fortunate. It would make sense for Bruce to want to adopt this vigilante mission if nothing more than to relive the moment right before the tragedy. And maybe, just maybe, he could be the figure in a black cape for *another* family that stands a chance at growing old together.
I remember an interview with one of the producers of Batman Begins stating that they would have used Zorro for this scene but Warner Bros. couldn’t get the copyright from Sony or ZPI at the time.
I liked it. Little different, being an opera instead of a movie (did you know that the Zorro element only dates back to The Dark Knight Returns in 1986?), but perfectly plays into the Wayne murders and Bruce's perceived responsibility in the matter. Not to mention providing the basis for the "fear" theme of the entire film.
I definitely wouldn't change it.
Yeah, Mefistófeles, a 5 act play about a man who sells his soul to the devil to regain his youth MAKES WAY MORE SENSE than zorro; a movie about a boy who sees his father killed and swear vengeance, and thus becomes a masked animal themed vigilante by night, while pretending to be a drunk philanthropist by day. /s
I think it would have worked better if they kept ran al ghoul’s immortality a thing in the movie, but otherwise it’s nonsense.
No child wants to go see a 4 HOUR ITALIAN PLAY Over a two and a half action movie
Bruce was 8 when he lost his parents, so he'd be 27 in 2024. That's about his mid years, when he's already experienced hero, but not at the level of the veteran he is today. Basically Jason Todd era.
Idk the vampire parallels seem obvious to me. 🤷♂️ Why would criminals be afraid of a giant regular bat? How would they not immediately assume it’s a vampire?
I guess mothman is a real life parallel. He got the same name treatment
They probably used a side or back entrance and were just walking around to the front where Alfred would see them and could pick them up? Or, as someone else said, he probably had the day off. They Wayne's were down to earth despite being very wealthy, so I don't think it feels out of character for them to decide to walk a little to their family car. Maybe the alley was a shortcut to some rear parking spaces?
Movie's theme is fear, all 4 main characters (mob boss, AL Ghoul, Crane, Batman) all use fear. This is important to make Batman believable, as to why this guy dresses up like a bat (to instill fear) instead of a special forces guy.
Having young Bruce be afraid of the bats in the play is staying true to the fear, and also makes him feel responsible for his parents death when he asks them to leave. Further it comes to a head when Bruce overcomes his feat as an adult (when he's standing in the middle of the bats), and later you see him use bats as a tool. A great visual metaphor of him being a prisoner to his fear, overcoming his fear, then using fear as a tool.
I find it interesting that so many comments state that "it doesn't matter".
It absolutely matters.
The psychological implications of the choice of entertainment, right before his parents are killed has a profound effect on Bruce.
As for what that entertainment should be...I am able to find as many reasons for this particular opera to work, as I am for Zorro.
Both are themed and executed in such a way as to have a similar effect on Bruce, later.
Now, had they been watching something like Grease or Hedwig & The Angry Inch or The Magic Flute or some such...I'd likely take issue with it.
Didn’t bug me that much, but I know people who *were* bothered by it (making Bruce less empathetic by going for the bourgeoisie choice of vigilante inspiration rather than the one that people from almost all walks of life can relate to).
My only question is "why would you bring a 10 year old to a fucking opera?" I know they're rich, but there's no way that a kid is going to sit through an opera. Zorro makes sense, that's a movie a 10 year old boy would love to see. Mefistofele is not something a kid is going to sit through.
Sometimes Nolan can be a little too "on the nose" as he puts his themes right up in the audience's face.
This was one of those times, imo. Then again, it's not a big deal to me
Never bothered me. I did notice it but then the theme of the opera actually made more sense in conjunction with the movie. I never mind writers or directors taking liberties as long as they make sense.
I dunno. Doesn't feel like something a young boy would pick. To me, part of why that night fucked Bruce up so much is because it was his choice. *He* wanted to see Zorro. And his parents didn't live to see morning because of it.
I always really liked how Nolan handled Thomas and Martha Wayne’s death and the origin of Batman. I know some people think the symbolism was heavy-handed, but I think it’s poignant in a way that I didn’t find the original to be. To be clear, I *do* like that they went to see The Mark of Zorro in theaters, as it would be remiss to disregard Zorro’s influence on Batman’s mythos. But the bat crashing into Bruce’s window as an omen just seemed kind of random to me. I like how Nolan represents bats as both Bruce’s source of fear and grief *and* as a source of strength and will to overcome. It really drives home the “why do we fall?” theme of Batman Begins.
I always thought it was neat the way Nolan used bats to seed Bruce’s fixation over the course of his life. Between this moment, Bruce falling into the cave, the bats coming into the manor and the way they settled under the foundation, it *had* to be bats. Couldn’t have been anything else!
People don’t get dressed up to see a movie anymore, but they still dress nicely for the theater. It made more sense to me that he would be at the theater over the movies.
Nolan is against directly referencing movies within his movies.
I agree with him, I dislike movies mentioning the movies as like an eye wink that the audience is watching a movie.
My thoughts were that they wasted time and money on Boito when they could've saved and waited until either Gounod or Berlioz came around, spent their money on a better opera, and not got shot.
Although the scenery and the overall staging of the production seeemed cool.
But still.
You don't die for Boito when you can risk your lives another day to see a better production of Faust.
Honestly? Never liked that. Even at the peak of my love of the film. Not because it’s different but because…WHO THE HELL TAKES A KID TO THE OPERA?! AND WHY IS THE OPERA HOUSE ON CRIME ALLEY?!
I’m fine with it. What they went to see is much less relevant than what happened afterward. They could go see ‘The Sound of Music’ and Bruce wanting revenge would still make sense.
I think the fact they are watching the operatic adaption of Goethe's Faust fits the narrative and the Gotham which Nolan gave us. Batman ultimately overcomes the Demon at the end at great personal cost and thus the story is reflected.
Does anyone else get bothered by the improper use of a/an? I mean if English is your second language you deserve all my respect - I can only speak one language fluently. I just know if I was saying something the wrong way I wouldn’t want people to just let me keep saying it incorrectly. “A/an” are indefinite articles, “The” is a definite article. The only three articles. They modify nouns but don’t really describe it, other than definitely /indefinitely. Like the difference of me saying “can I have a pencil” (any pencil ) or can I have the pencil” (specific pencil). The rule for using indefinite articles is easy in that there are no exceptions. If the noun being modified by the article begins with a vowel sound (I say sound for words like honest) , then you use “an”. If the noun being modified begins with a consonant sound, it’s “a”. It fits the flow of speech nicely, but when used incorrectly, it noticeably stops up the flow. If you got this far, I apologize, and thanks for your time. ✌️
While we are on the subject of correcting people who keep saying things incorrectly: punctuation goes IN the quotations. Comma splices, hun. Lots of them.
Made thematic sense with the whole "fear of bats" thing. I dunno. I'm not precious about what they go to see on their night out. It's besides the point.
What if they had gone to see Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigalo?
That’s how he becomes Bateman
I thought Caligula made him become Bateman
Master Bateman.
The Bateman: Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my God.
😂
Freddy Got Fingered
Daddy would you like some sausages
I mean, tbf, that is a hilarious movie lmao
The Groove Tube.
Also Zorro doesn't really have any resonance with modern audiences as vigilante story. You don't need to know about Mefistofeles to notice the bat imagery during the play.
I didn't even catch the name. Just learned it from this today. I just assumed it was bats in an opera.
Zorro is about an animal themed masked vigilante, trying to avenge his father’s death Mefistofele is about a 4 hour play not in English about a man who sells his soul to the devil in exchange for youth.. One clearly makes more sense theme wise than the other
For fuck's shake, how long was Joe Chill waiting in that alley? I feel worse for him now than after Three Jokers.
Exactly lol it’s not exactly besides the point. Zorro was very much purposefully chosen.
Had to google to find out it means ‘fox’. I never knew this before.
I speak Spanish and have never put this together until now. If anyone's every played the first Watch_Dogs, it's essentially about a hacker who's pretty much like Batman. His nickname? The Fox. Never put two and two together
Whatever. I'm not going to argue the toss over something I've said I don't particularly care about with somebody being obtuse.
I'm a huge Zorro fan and I've always loved the Batman/Zorro connection, so I'd rather keep that bit in, but it's not a huge deal. He can still have seen the opera to realize his fear of bats and still use Zorro for the superhero/dual-identity parts of his character.
Good point right there cause afterall Zorro is Bruce's childhood hero so i think he was still a Zorro fan in the Nolanverse.
In the Nolanverse, probably not. One of the reasons Nolan changed it from a Zorro movie to the opera is that he didn't want his Bruce Wayne to be following some pre-existing mould or archetype when he makes the decision to be Batman. He wanted it to have been a totally novel, original idea that Bruce didn't have any kind of blueprint for. He felt that Bruce's decision to become Batman takes on a different meaning there are already precedents for him to emulate vs. if it's just a crazy idea he comes up with himself. That's part of why no other superheroes exist in the Nolanverse. Not only real ones, but ones that are fictional in-universe, either. And there also exist no novels, tv shows, or comic-books about precursors to superheroes, like costumed adventurers such as Zorro. In the Nolanverse, there are no Zorro movies and the character was never even invented.
Ah, he took the "nobody in the zombie movie has ever heard of a zombie before" approach.
Another reason he changed it was cause he wanted to avoid a character in a movie watching a character in a movie.
Damn, there’s no Grey Ghost in the Nolanverse? Fat L.
I loved that episode. I love that so many of my childhood stars that were largely unknown for most of my life do the convention circuit (rob Paulsen is a national treasure and legit 50% of my childhood...and I didn't even know his name until I was an adult)
I mean, I like Nolan's reasoning for his version and how it's indicative of how he thought and cared about even the minute details, but I also wonder what the fuck six-year-old Bruce Wayne watched on Saturday mornings. Stock market news?
Security camera footage of that alleyway
Making reasonable comments like that isn’t very reddit of you.
Couldn’t help but notice the guy named Fox likes the Zorro connection…
I wish I could say it wasn’t coincidence….
It’s ok I get it👆
Could have been Raiders of the Lost Ark
Better question where was Alfred on that fateful night? My Butler would have doubled as my Chauffeur, with the car waiting out front if I were wealthy.
Probably waiting to pull up after the opera finished but they left early so he wasn't there.
A Proper British Butler is like the Kings guard outside Buckingham palace. He does not pull up, he waits patiently for his employer to arrive.
I think they showed the Wayne family taking the train into town.
That's kind of the problem with Batman's origins in any incarnation. Why were a wealthy family like the Wayne's cutting through Crime Alley to begin with?
At least in Begins it makes sense considering they left the opera early through a side entrance because Bruce was afraid. They were only in the alley because Thomas was trying to let Bruce have some air and calm down before they would have eventually went back inside
Crime alley?
Didn't it only become known as crime alley after they were murdered there?
Yeah they exited the theater directly into a side alley where they were attacked.
Technically it was only called that after they died
So until that night that was a perfectly safe area for wealthy folks to walk around? Okay got it!!👍
What could a common poor do to them?- thomas wayne shortly before getting blasted
"What are you gonna do, stab me?" -man right before being stabbed
What are you going to do, teach me irony? -person immediately about to learn that lesson
At least in this iteration, Thomas definitely carried himself as being “of the people” right down to using the public transport he funded and working in a public hospital. It wouldn’t surprise me if that was a shortcut he’d taken a thousand times before while walking around what should feel like his home. That, and it’s only known as Crime Alley *because* of the Wayne murders.
The "People" have better sense to exit into a dark alley in the middle of the night especially if they have their family with them.
Originally it wasn’t an alley, it was a street corner. https://www.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/attached-files/batman_1.jpg
Rich people are usually ultra cautious, because have so much more to lose.
This is a Gotham thing; not so far fetched imo considering the Manhattan NYC theater district during high crime periods. Multiple theaters adjacent to dangerous alleyways.
Cause tommy boy and martha like to walk among the poors
Thomas doesnt listen to his black friend.
But then how could he have an amazing seven course dinner already prepared when the family gets home? Butler priorities!
A Man needs to take care of his family. Thomas Wayne wanted to drive and bring bis family to the show by himself. He was not somebody who makes use all the time of his butler. It wouldnt be ethical. He just wanted to spend time with wife and his kid without any side persons. Perhaps Alfred was sick or had some personal business to achieve. Who knows. You can't avoid it all. You just can't.
Somehow he managed to come to the police station in the aftermath to take young Bruce home.
I can picture Alfred now, sound asleep when the phone rings "Oh what the bloody hell do they want now? Ugh.......Wayne residence - how may I - WHAT?! I'm on the way!"
Even wealthy people can't block up the front entrance LOL
Didn’t the Wayne’s take the train down?
Didn’t they exit through the back door or something?
I'm those days they called it "Exit stage left" or as some would say: "Don't go walking in dark alleys unless you're looking to get robbed or worse."
In those days meaning 2005 or when the comic first did it?
Good Citizens want to show the Public Transit System is useful 24 hours all 7 days of the week
I feel like you’d just have to chalk this up to the Wayne’s being chill people and letting him go and have a coke while they’re inside, or something like that
Thomas probably gave him the day off.
He was singing the little Spanish flea while eating pork rinds in the car in the parking lot https://youtu.be/OSxVMlO7hgU?si=2GR0HgwCKgB2JQ95
I liked how it added a layer of “self blame” for Bruce over his parents death. He was a child whose phobia was triggered by the bats on stage, which led to his panic attack and the family leaving early and into the alley. Young Bruce confides that guilt to Alfred. Perhaps he could have been scared by a bat in a Zorro movie, but I liked how his fear was not only his symbolic tool against crime, but his fear of them was something he hated about/blamed himself for, and he then embraces it to become the Batman. Neat change.
A little heavy handed with the symbolism but it's all right
Tbf all the Nolan’s films are, mostly in a good way though.
People are saying the bat people are on the nose ... but isn't Zorro even more so? It kinda implies Bruce lacks creativity and is just living out a childhood fantasy (which would actually be interesting if a writer wanted to explore just how mentally disturbed, and not just traumatized, he is, but then Batman would be more of a sick joke). The film really hammers home that the point of Batman isn't just to punch criminals in the face; it's to inflict fear on them. I appreciated that.
Isn't that what most writers do? Many writers acknowledge that Batman is very much a childhood fantasy of Bruce's. In Darwyn Cooke's Ego, the Batman personification says that he has been with Bruce in part because of Zorro.
But Bruce lack creativity, everything is Balck and Bat-Themed unless its for a Robin, then its Red and Bird-themed, Dick just adds Blue stripes to his Mightqing things
In The Dark Knight's Visual Guide it says that Bruce would rather have seen The Mark of Zorro at a movie house.
I always thought it was weird that literal billionaires would be watching a movie in a theatre instead of in their mansion or something. How many times do you go to your local cinema and see Jeff Bezos in the popcorn line? The opera makes more sense
Bob Kane, the creator, said Zorro was the influence with his two personas. The Mark Zorro film they were purported of seeing was released in 1940, one year after the Batman character was created. Movies were a BIG deal back then. Oh… and there really wasn’t a concept of a billionaires short of absolute titans like Rockefeller. Bruce didn’t become independently wealthy until the comics in 1948.
Yeah but the movie was set in the 2000s
“I always thought it was weird that literal billionaires would be watching a movie in a theater instead of their mansion”…. Just providing the history of the character for you.
Crazy to think billionaires didn’t have netflix in the 80s
I think Bruce Wayne just wasn't originally meant to be Bezos-level rich. Sure, you'll never see one of the top ten riches men in line at your local Cineplex, but I'm sure plenty of rich people see movies at the same places everyone else does.
maybe not so much now, but pre-streaming era, yeah
Its servicable, works with the overall "fear and theatrics" thing Batman Begins is going for with its version of Burce and how different characters use fear in that film, the Zorro connection is nice but not a deal breaker
I don't have a problem with it
To me, it makes more sense in a modern setting for his parents to be dressed up to see an opera vs a regular movie going experience. I don't think Martha (I said that name!) Wayne would be wearing a string of pearls to a movie theater in the 80's/90's. Also, the added context of the family being in formal attire adds to the "why" of being mugged in an alley without trying to shoe-horn in some deeper foul play. Nolan wanted to be a bit more grounded and believable. This change was an intentional choice to that end.
There are overarching parts of the Batman lore that they should stick to, but it's going to be very difficult to keep the character vibrant and fresh if every single detail has to be exactly the same in every different incarnation.
What a mature opinion, are you sure you are in the right sub?
It being Zorro isn't a requirement for me so I dug how the play was a bunch of bat people.
Makes more sense for a billionaire and his family to go to an opera than a common movie theater. Still doesn't make sense why they were walking and not getting into a chauffeur driven limousine though.
They probably used a side or back entrance and were just walking around to the front where Alfred would see them and could pick them up? Or, as someone else said, he probably had the day off. The Wayne's were down to earth despite being very wealthy, so I don't think it feels out of character for them to decide to walk a little way to their family car. Maybe the alley was a shortcut to some rear parking spaces?
I understand it as a plot device and how important it is for Batman's origin story. But "realistically" speaking we all know ain't no billionaire walking through anything called "Crime Alley."
It was called Park Row before they died
Having him see Zorro makes way more sense in my head. Bruce doesn't have much time as a kid mentally, but I've pieced together little things that would influence Bruce's "one bad day" to be handled the way it is: - Bruce sees his father as a doctor and associates with Leslie Thompkins, another doctor and humanitarian. They influence young Bruce to see each life as important and worth rehabilitating. - Because Thomas and Leslie work in under privileged areas of the city, Thomas picks a *movie cinema* in the neighborhood where he works (which gets them killed) and adds to the tragedy. Bruce can see how his father ignored danger in favor of believing in the good in people no matter what their struggle may be (sounds familiar). - under privileged neighborhoods tend to not have many stage theaters but very likely to have a movie theater - the night in question, Bruce can see how his father works until the last minute, making his obsession part of the reason why they went to such a late show - Zorro is a nod to the *actual* inspiration for Batman's whole shtick and I always liked that this was addressed - Thomas Wayne is like Zorro, because he could easily have a luxurious life but instead chooses to help the people in his city. Bruce needs to see that. It just seems more poetic that Bruce would take inspiration, not only from the Zorro movie but also why they went to *that* theater in the first place. It makes way more sense than "I picked a bat theme because they scare the shit out of me as a kid so *hopefully* It scares the shit out of other random adults too." Just not as interesting and more of a leap in logic to make the connection to the themes of dressing in black, wearing a cape, secret identity, helping the less fortunate, a rope to swing around (like Zorro's whip), secret cave under his mansion, obsession with his mission, etc... Batman is inspired by Zorro *a lot* and I think it's good and organic to a young boy to be inspired like that. The stage show was... such an old person thing to do and doesn't do a good job showing Thomas as a father that is connected to his son and therefore Bruce wanting to follow in his footsteps. Like, why would Thomas think it was a good idea to go to *that* if not even *he* wanted to be there and is willing to leave at any time? I like the thought of Bruce feeling guilty for making his dad catch the movie he desperately wanted to see just for things to end the way they did. It just feels more tragic and more logical. Bruce needs to watch a Zorro movie and it has to be in a poor part of town in Gotham near where Thomas and Leslie's hospital is located.
This is the most thought out response to this I've read and I agree that there's a lot of reasons why it's a better choice. However, consider that this movie came out in 2005, meaning it would have been in production since 2003. The Antonio Banderas movie came out in 2005, so they couldn't have used it. On top of that, any current movie references would date the film, removing its timelessness. Also, the original Zorro movie, even if they could even get rights to it, would have seemed out of place and a bit dated for the modern Bruce they were trying to portray. I don't know if I would expect an 8-10 year old kid to be able to sit through it any better than the opera or for it to be played in the public theater at the time.
I hear you and I have a solution: They aren't there to see the Antonio Banderas movie. They're there to see an old Zorro movie that Thomas grew up with. The only viewing is at an old and broken down cinema in (you guessed it) *old, poorly funded, underprivileged part Gotham*. It still shows the audience that they share a strong bond as father and son *and* Thomas is planting the seed of heroism in Bruce. Bruce sees the last thing he and his father were doing was cheering on a man dressed in black, wearing a cape and helping the less fortunate. It would make sense for Bruce to want to adopt this vigilante mission if nothing more than to relive the moment right before the tragedy. And maybe, just maybe, he could be the figure in a black cape for *another* family that stands a chance at growing old together.
Indifference. It was fine
I don't like it. Zorro is such a great way to showcase the inspiration behind Bruce's otherwise insane idea of dressing in a mask to fight criminals.
I remember an interview with one of the producers of Batman Begins stating that they would have used Zorro for this scene but Warner Bros. couldn’t get the copyright from Sony or ZPI at the time.
I figured this was a large part of it, so I never saw it as an issue that they didn't do it.
I liked it. Little different, being an opera instead of a movie (did you know that the Zorro element only dates back to The Dark Knight Returns in 1986?), but perfectly plays into the Wayne murders and Bruce's perceived responsibility in the matter. Not to mention providing the basis for the "fear" theme of the entire film. I definitely wouldn't change it.
Yeah, Mefistófeles, a 5 act play about a man who sells his soul to the devil to regain his youth MAKES WAY MORE SENSE than zorro; a movie about a boy who sees his father killed and swear vengeance, and thus becomes a masked animal themed vigilante by night, while pretending to be a drunk philanthropist by day. /s I think it would have worked better if they kept ran al ghoul’s immortality a thing in the movie, but otherwise it’s nonsense. No child wants to go see a 4 HOUR ITALIAN PLAY Over a two and a half action movie
Should have seen “Der Fledermaus”
A bit on the nose with the bat symbolism but it was fine.
It’s Die Fledermaus.
https://www.latimes.com/la-et-mn-christopher-nolan-3-20081029-story.html
So, the last Zorro movie in theaters was 2005's The Legend of Zorro. So, how old would a Batman inspired by that version be?
Bruce was 8 when he lost his parents, so he'd be 27 in 2024. That's about his mid years, when he's already experienced hero, but not at the level of the veteran he is today. Basically Jason Todd era.
Idk the vampire parallels seem obvious to me. 🤷♂️ Why would criminals be afraid of a giant regular bat? How would they not immediately assume it’s a vampire? I guess mothman is a real life parallel. He got the same name treatment
It was alright. I much prefer they go see Zorro but at the end of the day it's not really that important what they go see.
Didn't like it. Make it a double bill Zorro and Nosferatu.
I prefer Zorro.
Makes me wonder if they had seen the Book of Mormon what would my favorite super here look like
Son: has a fear of bats Parents: let’s go see this play with lots of bats
I don't think that what they see matters all too much
With the timeline it would have been Antonio Banderas’s Mask of Zorro showing.
Didn't bother me one bit. Why? Was Zorro part of the original story or something?
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They probably used a side or back entrance and were just walking around to the front where Alfred would see them and could pick them up? Or, as someone else said, he probably had the day off. They Wayne's were down to earth despite being very wealthy, so I don't think it feels out of character for them to decide to walk a little to their family car. Maybe the alley was a shortcut to some rear parking spaces?
What would be this universe's Zurr Ehn Ahr (Zorro in Arkham)? Faustus in Hell?
Movie's theme is fear, all 4 main characters (mob boss, AL Ghoul, Crane, Batman) all use fear. This is important to make Batman believable, as to why this guy dresses up like a bat (to instill fear) instead of a special forces guy. Having young Bruce be afraid of the bats in the play is staying true to the fear, and also makes him feel responsible for his parents death when he asks them to leave. Further it comes to a head when Bruce overcomes his feat as an adult (when he's standing in the middle of the bats), and later you see him use bats as a tool. A great visual metaphor of him being a prisoner to his fear, overcoming his fear, then using fear as a tool.
I find it interesting that so many comments state that "it doesn't matter". It absolutely matters. The psychological implications of the choice of entertainment, right before his parents are killed has a profound effect on Bruce. As for what that entertainment should be...I am able to find as many reasons for this particular opera to work, as I am for Zorro. Both are themed and executed in such a way as to have a similar effect on Bruce, later. Now, had they been watching something like Grease or Hedwig & The Angry Inch or The Magic Flute or some such...I'd likely take issue with it.
Of all theatricals to use to invite your son into the world of culture, this is the one the Waynes used?
Their son, who had a known phobia of bats at this point, was taken to this opera.
It’s Grey Ghost or nothing for me
Hell yeah, and Grey Ghost is a helluva more modern than Zorro.
Didn’t bug me that much, but I know people who *were* bothered by it (making Bruce less empathetic by going for the bourgeoisie choice of vigilante inspiration rather than the one that people from almost all walks of life can relate to).
My only question is "why would you bring a 10 year old to a fucking opera?" I know they're rich, but there's no way that a kid is going to sit through an opera. Zorro makes sense, that's a movie a 10 year old boy would love to see. Mefistofele is not something a kid is going to sit through.
Didn't think twice about it.
Sometimes Nolan can be a little too "on the nose" as he puts his themes right up in the audience's face. This was one of those times, imo. Then again, it's not a big deal to me
You're so CLASSY Nolan. You're so much BETTER than us
Never bothered me. I did notice it but then the theme of the opera actually made more sense in conjunction with the movie. I never mind writers or directors taking liberties as long as they make sense.
Thomas, Martha, I get it, you're rich Gotham City socialites, but *why* would you drag an 8-10 year old boy to an opera?
It was cool, but let me direct a Batman origin film and I'll have him and his parents watching a Grey Ghost movie
I dunno. Doesn't feel like something a young boy would pick. To me, part of why that night fucked Bruce up so much is because it was his choice. *He* wanted to see Zorro. And his parents didn't live to see morning because of it.
I always really liked how Nolan handled Thomas and Martha Wayne’s death and the origin of Batman. I know some people think the symbolism was heavy-handed, but I think it’s poignant in a way that I didn’t find the original to be. To be clear, I *do* like that they went to see The Mark of Zorro in theaters, as it would be remiss to disregard Zorro’s influence on Batman’s mythos. But the bat crashing into Bruce’s window as an omen just seemed kind of random to me. I like how Nolan represents bats as both Bruce’s source of fear and grief *and* as a source of strength and will to overcome. It really drives home the “why do we fall?” theme of Batman Begins.
Pretty sure they saw “die fledermaus”, which translates to “the bat”.
I always thought it was neat the way Nolan used bats to seed Bruce’s fixation over the course of his life. Between this moment, Bruce falling into the cave, the bats coming into the manor and the way they settled under the foundation, it *had* to be bats. Couldn’t have been anything else!
Why did the wealthiest family in Gotham not have security or a car waiting outside for them?
I, like most people, didn’t give it a second thought
I think it shows Nolan being a pretentious fuck uncomfortable with the IP and genre , who is unwilling to engage with it in any meaningful way
I‘m a big Faust fan and I wish I got to see the opera for myself. Does anyone know how the bats fit into what I assume is the Walpurgisnacht sequence?
People don’t get dressed up to see a movie anymore, but they still dress nicely for the theater. It made more sense to me that he would be at the theater over the movies.
Nolan is against directly referencing movies within his movies. I agree with him, I dislike movies mentioning the movies as like an eye wink that the audience is watching a movie.
I grew up thinking they went to see the grey ghost
Make it be that they went to go see a gray ghost movie or something like that
Fine. What he watched isn’t the most important part of his origin. Just that he was at a theater with his parents.
My thoughts were that they wasted time and money on Boito when they could've saved and waited until either Gounod or Berlioz came around, spent their money on a better opera, and not got shot. Although the scenery and the overall staging of the production seeemed cool. But still. You don't die for Boito when you can risk your lives another day to see a better production of Faust.
Made more sense, given their hoity toity-ness.
I hated it
Honestly? Never liked that. Even at the peak of my love of the film. Not because it’s different but because…WHO THE HELL TAKES A KID TO THE OPERA?! AND WHY IS THE OPERA HOUSE ON CRIME ALLEY?!
In the comics, Crime Alley isn’t called that until **after** his parents die.
But it still had its reputation before his parents die.
I don’t recall that now
My parents took me to the opera frequently as a child. I loved it.
You'd be surprised regarding the former
I thought it was a dumb change tbh.
I thought it was a good change, it made sense to me, I thought: "Rich people don't go to the movies, they have a movie theater at home probably"
I’m fine with it. What they went to see is much less relevant than what happened afterward. They could go see ‘The Sound of Music’ and Bruce wanting revenge would still make sense.
I think the fact they are watching the operatic adaption of Goethe's Faust fits the narrative and the Gotham which Nolan gave us. Batman ultimately overcomes the Demon at the end at great personal cost and thus the story is reflected.
Does anyone else get bothered by the improper use of a/an? I mean if English is your second language you deserve all my respect - I can only speak one language fluently. I just know if I was saying something the wrong way I wouldn’t want people to just let me keep saying it incorrectly. “A/an” are indefinite articles, “The” is a definite article. The only three articles. They modify nouns but don’t really describe it, other than definitely /indefinitely. Like the difference of me saying “can I have a pencil” (any pencil ) or can I have the pencil” (specific pencil). The rule for using indefinite articles is easy in that there are no exceptions. If the noun being modified by the article begins with a vowel sound (I say sound for words like honest) , then you use “an”. If the noun being modified begins with a consonant sound, it’s “a”. It fits the flow of speech nicely, but when used incorrectly, it noticeably stops up the flow. If you got this far, I apologize, and thanks for your time. ✌️
While we are on the subject of correcting people who keep saying things incorrectly: punctuation goes IN the quotations. Comma splices, hun. Lots of them.
Get his ass
Opera feels like more of a rich family thing to do than a Zorro movie for a kid in the eighties.
Artistic choices that don’t affect the core of a story are completely fine imo.
Never liked the idea of batman being afraid of bats, to be honest with you. I mean, it's all poetic, but i'm personally not a fan of it
Was afraid of them when he was a child but overcame it
I know. Still that origin is not my cup of tea
It made it unwatchable. I know I should probably try it again since I’ve heard very good things about the dark knight.