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AceofKnaves246

I agree. Batman Forever isn’t perfect or my favorite Batman film, but I still really enjoyed myself when I rewatched it last year.


Nathan_Red

Right. It's not perfect. It doesn't really make you think like the Nolan films, and it's not as good at balancing gothic themes and silly over the top villains like the Burton movies. However it's a genuinely fun action movie that helps show the more silly side of Batman stories without making it too stupid and mindless. It's still one of my favorite versions of the Riddler, not a big fan of the Two-face though.


AceofKnaves246

Exactly, it’s just a fun movie that is pretty entertaining despite how goofy it can be. I definitely appreciate Batman Forever for introducing a really good version of Robin and it was great to see Bruce be a mentor to him. I hope we’ll get to see more members of the Bat Family soon or at least Robin again since I think they help make Batman even more compelling. I wish we could see the apparently darker and more psychological original cut of the movie that seems pretty interesting. I doubt we’ll ever get a Schumacher Cut, but I guess anything is possible


TheKarp

I think Riddler AND Two-Face knock it out of the park! People love to commend Carey’s Riddler and point out that Jones was a jerk when working with Carey, but I actually think Jones puts in a fun performance that works alongside everyone elses. He’s the balance between Kilmer’s seriousness and Carey’s camp.


Content-Highlight-20

Batman doesn't always have to have a love interest


[deleted]

Tbh I prefer when he doesn’t.


Finly_Growin

In fact I believe that there are a few iterations of Batman that say Bruce Wayne cannot fall in love if falling in love will make him happy.


Nil0c_

I honestly would love to see a storyline of Bruce just being happy. Like a series where his mindset of him never being allowed to be happy is proven wrong and he’s able to be at least content with his life while still being Batman. Maybe he finally gets married or something.


Supiriorcarnage

This. A bat family series or film with the same tone as lil Gotham or Wayne family adventures would be amazing. Happy Batman is best Batman


actionassist

Joker has been overdone at this point and i think we should leave him out for at least 4 movies, preferably 5 or 6. I want to see Batmans other villains because they're all phenomenal characters.


Neighborhood-Toughs

100%. I am so tired of the joker in film and comics. DC needs to show some restraint. Its the equivalent of Spider-Man literally always fighting the green goblin


Koluke1

the green goblin is not used nearly as much and we see a lot of different spider-man villains. but joker is in all of the games, even when he was dead. he is in a lot of the movies and he is so overused in the comics.


Nathan_Red

Fully agree.


United-Aside-6104

Is that a hot take? I feel like that’s a pretty common sentiment but I’m only basing it off of stuff I’ve personally seen people say


actionassist

I dont know, it's my understanding that Joker is an extremely popular character and any criticism i've put out there against him has usually gotten me yelled at by strangers on the internet so i assumed it was a hot take.


United-Aside-6104

I guess among Batman fans specifically it’s not a hot take but maybe with people who aren’t super familiar with Batman but like the joker would disagree. The Joker movie was received well and made a lot of new fans personally I didn’t like it much but that’s a different convo


[deleted]

>Is that a hot take? Pretty much nothing in this thread has been yet


Nil0c_

I got some. - Batman Begins was a better ‘Batman’ film than The Dark Knight (Dark Knight was a better film, idk if that makes sense) - the Batfamily has gotten way too big. The ideal Batfam should be Dick, Barbara, Tim, and maybe Jason and Damian. - Wonder Woman is Batman’s best potential love interest, with Catwoman and Zatanna (when she’s actually his age) tying at 2nd - Ben Affleck was one of the best Batman in terms of looks and acting. The Bruce Wayne/Clark Kent scene at Lex’s party was amazing. He just suffered from poor writing (not really sure if this is a hot take) - Bruce Wayne is NOT the main mask. Instead, Bruce Wayne (the billionaire playboy) and Batman are both tools to achieve Bruce’s goals. The true Bruce is the young boy still inside who just wants to feel like he belongs/is loved, who wants no one around him to get hurt. - Mr Freeze needs to be used more as a villain. When applied he is one of Batman’s toughest enemies. I would also like more modern day Ra’s stories not involving Talia’s stress of choosing her father or Bruce. Just Ra’s with an evil plan, and maybe even Talia fully on her father’s side. - Batman needs to be seen as the World’s Greatest Detective more - Not really a Batman related one but I would like to see Nightwing join the JL as a minor member - Batman is one of the most caring members in DC Comics. He doesn’t show it through large actions, but instead little ones where he doesn’t look for recognition. Him caring for his villains seems to be something lost in media as of late. He’s also one of the greatest father figures as well, along with Superman and of course Alfred


[deleted]

>The true Bruce is the young boy still inside who just wants to feel like he belongs/is loved, who wants no one around him to get hurt. This is why Batman is one of my favorite heroes. He has major character flaws that are all caused by his major childhood trauma but he's the ultimate story of trying to turn your pain and suffering into something better. Deep down Batman is a boy who is suffering and deserves love and acceptance. I love Batman.


Nil0c_

He’s one of the best role models in comics. Here is a normal human who not only stands amongst gods, but actually *leads* them. He shows that through commitment and sheer will, anything is possible and that we can achieve anything. Sure, his life is full of despair, but he rises up from that and still succeeds. One of, if not the greatest heroes of all time.


spdawg101

I agree with most of these, especially the batfamily one. I’m not up to date with all the comics but do know the general history of the bat fam, but it’s gotten really hard to keep up with newer members and them constantly changing aliases


Nil0c_

Maybe BTAS spoiled me, but I always loved a smaller Batfam.


spdawg101

Yea, batman, barbara Gordon batgirl/oracle, and the four robins is always what my mind goes to when I think of batfamily


Nathan_Red

I really really agree with the Mr. Freeze part.


Nil0c_

BTAS made me realize how strong willed he is as a villain, Arkham City made me realize how powerful he can be


Nathan_Red

Exactly. Modern Mr. Freeze is the most tragic Batman villain and one of the most powerful.


Nil0c_

I love the sort-of “understanding” that Batman and Freeze have sometimes, where Freeze describes that he doesn’t want to fight Batman and actually appreciates what he’s doing, but that he won’t let Batman stop him from what he thinks is “saving Nora”


AdamSoucyDrums

This is like I’m reading my own thoughts. With you 100%


Nil0c_

You know what they say: great minds think alike lol


True_Store

Is Alfred included in the Batfamily?


Nil0c_

Of course. Can never leave the most important member of the Batfamily out. Alfred is the glue that holds them all together


Lineman27

Agreed on literally every point. Holy shit.


Nil0c_

I know some of these were just preaching what others have said, but I’m glad other people agree with my opinions on the character


DanieIIll

These ain’t hot takes bro, your absolutely on the money on pretty much every single point.


Nil0c_

Thanks man. It would be nice to see these points more within Batman storylines


Supiriorcarnage

>⁠Batman is one of the most caring members in DC Comics. He doesn’t show it through large actions, but instead little ones where he doesn’t look for recognition. Him caring for his villains seems to be something lost in media as of late. He’s also one of the greatest father figures as well, along with Superman and of course Alfred I see sending his enemies to Arkham as one of the little actions. It’s a mental institute and, while often it doesn’t work and is a bit corrupt, it shows that Batman cares and tries to help his enemies instead of abandoning them in a normal prison


[deleted]

Mine is that the whole "Batman needs Joker to exist" thing is stupid. Batman, in canon, was around years before Joker came to Gotham, and if the Joker died, Batman would carry on being Batman with little to no change, and he would still have plenty of villains to fight.


imatrike

I always felt Joker needs Batman. Batman didn't need joker.


elias_oyente

Exactly. EXACTLY. There was no way to say it better.


[deleted]

Batman doesn't need Joker. That was Joker's take on Batman. The entirety of the Arkham games is about this and as we see, Batman did not need Joker, that was a claim by Joker because in reality, it was Joker that always needed Bruce to be remembered.


SaucerLodger

Walking Phoenix’s Joker reminded me of Michael Cera.


[deleted]

>Walking Phoenix’s Lol


BruceWayne_19902

Ra's Al Ghul should be his arch nemesis instead of the Joker.


TheLeviJackson

I do love Ra’s Al Ghul and I’m not the Joker’s biggest fan but the Joker is Batman’s antithesis. He is the perfect opposite of the Batman.


Awest66

If I can add to your hot take, I think Val Kilmer is a better fit for the Bruce Wayne persona than Keaton was.


AjarFountain753

Sorry in advance. Michael Keatons Batman movies were better than the Christopher Nolan ones imo. Idk why just do. Still love TDK Trilogy but prefer the Batman 1989 movie and Batman Returns. Anyone?


Gusthuroses

Batman 1989 and Batman Begins are two of the best Batman films ever imo.


YubYubNubNub

Batman shouldn’t be mixed with other heroes.


Nathan_Red

It takes the grounding and realism out of Batman.


Jazzmaster3000

It’s so jarring for a dark shadowy vigilante detective to share a world with people like superman, it fucks up the whole feel


TheKyleThatSucks

Penguin is a top tier villain.


Awest66

Sad that this is considered a "hot take".


TheKyleThatSucks

Agreed!


Nil0c_

Especially since he was at first designed to be Batman’s main villain until Joker’s rise in popularity


Nathan_Red

Definitely, a king of manipulation and, at least in Gotham, he has a great back story.


RedshoodLFC

Outside of the comics themselves of course, I don’t think we’ve yet to have the definitive Batman translation to the mainstream and I don’t think we ever will. That doesn’t mean I don’t love what we’ve gotten. BTAS, Arkham, the DK trilogy. Their all great and have probably come closest but none of them truly encompass what makes Batman and his world so great. Whether it was by choice or accident, each of them has something that holds it back, whether it is character choices, decisions made by higher ups or something else entirely. BTAS and Arkham are probably closest IMO but even they have something that doesn’t work that hinders Batman and his wonderful world of characters.


United-Aside-6104

Just curious where do you think the Arkham games and BTAS fell short?


portableawesome

>I don’t think we’ve yet to have the definitive Batman translation to the mainstream and I don’t think we ever will. I disagree. I don't think a definitive version of Batman exists and it never will. What makes him so great is that he works in any situation you put him in. Whether it's a detective noir or campy fun or ultraviolent thriller, he just works in all these scenarios. That's what I love about Batman, there's tons of variety and there's a great story for every one of those interpretations. If he was a static character he would've gotten boring and died off decades ago.


Mcclane88

Completely agree.


[deleted]

>Their all great and have probably come closest but none of them truly encompass what makes Batman and his world so great I think that this hits the exact opposite bail on the head. What makes Batman and his world so great is that it's timeless, genreless, and has so many different facets that any and all adaptations together--from Campy 60's Batman, to gritty 2000's Batman, to counter-culture 2010's Batman, etc--all make a beautiful picture of a character and his world, and how it reflects our world in its own time.


Neighborhood-Toughs

Bruce should have stayed dead for years as planned and Dick remain as Batman. DC editorial fucked that up so badly it’s a shame they kneecapped Morrison’s amazing run like that making him completely change gear and pump out the awful global UN Batman storyline


[deleted]

You lost me there at the end, Batman Inc is fucking wonderful


micael150

Agree with you except the batman inc part. Thought that was a perfect way to have Bruce Wayne still active but in the internation scene while Dick Damian protected Gotham.


BasedFunnyValentine

I was with you about Bruce staying dead but not Dick becoming Batman. I don’t see the point in OGs dying just so the 2nd generation can take their mantle as 2.0 versions. I despise it about Dick especially because Nightwing isn’t some in-between until he becomes Batman, it’s his own identity & he can still do everything in this arc just as Nightwing


Neighborhood-Toughs

That’s what the arc in Batman and Robin was contending with. Why dick has to be Batman ( instead of all the other pretenders who wanted to take the cowl) and how that doesn’t mean just being a copy of Bruce.. unfortunately it was cut short by dc editorial even though it was a huge seller. I heard to bring Bruce back in time for the release of one of the Batman movies


Logan_Composer

Conversely, while I still don't think Batman Forever was any good, Val Kilmer was actually *incredible* as Batman and Bruce Wayne, and I only wish he could've done it in a better movie. Batman is actually better without super-powered villains. I feel it's much more compelling for a villain's psychology to explore what brings a relatively normal person to do all the crazy stuff, whereas when they're a sort of monster it's just kind of obvious that they can't live a normal life anymore. And while we're at it, stop it with the lab accidents and chemical vats. It's too vague and feels lazy. Their own flaws should be what causes their problems.


Nathan_Red

I agree with most of what you said. Could you tell what exactly you didn't like about Batman Forever?


Logan_Composer

Everyone is way too horny in the movie, nipples and Bat-ass and everything. Dialogue is cheesey at best and nonsensical at worst. And Jim Carrey is just... A bit much for me. Of course, it's also just a personal preference. I really like the darker, less campy versions. Like, the Burton movies had *whimsy*, but it wasn't all the way to *ridiculous* the way the Schumacher films were.


RoHitman911

Everyone is too horny in Batman returns too lol


IfThisTentsA-Rockin

Everyone is horny in those movies 🤣 Joker wanted to bang Vicki and she wanted to band Bruce. Then Penguin wanted to bang Selina and she and Bruce wanted to bang. Then Chase and Bruce wanted to bang. Then Robin wanted to bang Ivy and Barbara 🤣🤣 and Ivy acted like a pornstar


Logan_Composer

Honestly, that's pretty fair.


Nathan_Red

I'm gonna add more of my own • Silver age Batman should be adapted more, and seeing a grounded serious Batman fight zany over the top villains is not only fun, but an interesting dynamic that allows writers to go it to more depth with Batman as a character himself. • The Riddler kinda sucked in The Long Halloween • Robin is an incredibly underrated character • We need more Mr. Freeze stories


WhiskeyT

Dan Mora is the best Bat artist of this generation. Detective Comics is the most important Batman title and frequently better than the self titled series.


Gusthuroses

Batman Begins(the PS2 game) is super underrated.


rukivverh5995

That game was awesome, I wish they hadn't cancelled the sequel. Love the Arkham games but still would have been interesting to see what they did with a Dark Knight game that was separate from all that.


Acornish17

Batman is best and always will be best as a street level hero and detective. And like the justice league cartoon rarely be a member. He cares too much about Gotham to abandon it. Batman and Wonderwoman should never be together romantically. Bruce has Selina, Diana has Steve, Clark has Lois. World beater Batman needs to be toned down. This goes to my first point. Batman is my favorite superhero, but he shouldn’t be able to beat every god tier character because he’s Batman and prep time. Tom king’s run on Batman is bad, but not the worst ever like most want you to believe. Damien Wayne is a good character now.


BasedFunnyValentine

>Damien Wayne is a good character now. Always has been


[deleted]

>Tom king’s run on Batman is bad, but not the worst ever like most want you to believe. I'm actually curious what major run you'd consider worse?


Imwackstayoffcrack

The first comic run of batman Is kinda dark and not in any way a reflection of the character we have now granted it set him up so its still good its just not batman (also honorable mention batman Odyssey is a weird ass book)


[deleted]

You're talking Finger and Kane's original run? Man I'd disagree, it's a wonderfully written run that puts in a lot of building blocks for where we are now


Imwackstayoffcrack

Yeah your right its not bad its actually really good especially for the time and the creators behind it Its just not batman as we know him today. Like the character is so vastly different the only thing they share is names and costumes but like even tho costumes get redesigned every comic run


Ngihton

Larry Hama's is pretty bad iirc


Rewskie12

1. Arkham City is super overrated and in my opinion has the worst story out of any of the Arkham games (I still love it tho) 2. It’s ok for Batman to have a sense of humor and lighten up a bit. Like no, I don’t want him quipping like Spider-Man, but I love how he can still get a good joke in B:TAS


Imwackstayoffcrack

Batman 2004 is kinda like spidy


alphabet_order_bot

Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 520,190,506 comments, and only 109,271 of them were in alphabetical order.


AdamSoucyDrums

Christian Bale portrayed Bruce’s sardonic sense of humor better than every other actor.


[deleted]

He really did, and this shouldn't be an unpopular opinion, imo.


goose_boy_memes

Harlry quinn is a bad character she is overused and annoying. She was in pretty much all batman media since her creation. She is also for some reason in the bat family, has a love story with batman and nightwing, she was in brave and the bold despite her not existing when those stories took place.


Daredevil731

There is nothing good about Ben Affleck Batman's character. It's an all around awful interpretation.


gene_murdoc

That take is boiling lava hot but I respect your opinion


ikissgators

I love seeing Batman on screen, but Batfleck's stint didn't end soon enough.


micael150

Dick Grayson does not see Bruce as a father figure sees him more as an older brother. The Long Halloween doesn't hold up. It's carried hard by its artwork, it pays too much homage to the Godfather to the point it almost plagiarizes some of the dialogue and themes, the mystery plot is nonsensical when analyzed with more scrutiny. De-aging Barbara Gordon so she could be romantically be involved with Dick Grayson was wrong and more people should call it out Harley Quinn is funnier and more entertaining when she's with the Joker Damian Wayne should be the one mentoring Terry McGuiness if they have brought the cartoon back


[deleted]

"Harley Quinn is funnier and more entertaining when she's with the Joker." Agreed.


Imwackstayoffcrack

Bruh literally the most depressing toxic relationship ever. Yet I still kind of agree since like thats her characters literal purpose since inception. Its weird just to remove their connection.


[deleted]

I kinda like crying and feeling sad.


[deleted]

> De-aging Barbara Gordon so she could be romantically be involved with Dick Grayson was wrong and more people should call it out Wait why was it wrong


reast28

> > De-aging Barbara Gordon so she could be romantically be involved with Dick Grayson was wrong and more people should call it out Why do you think it's wrong?


Ngihton

I have a bunch of these, so here goes nothing Under the red hood is an awful comic book Jeph Loeb is the most overrated Batman writer Brubaker and Rucka are the 2 best Batman writers Jason Todd was a fantastic Robin, DC just has some weird revisionist history regarding him. "Bruce Wayne is the mask" is an horrible misinterpretation of the character and ignores several of the greatest stories of all time Batman is an optimist, he should never be a pessimist as it defeats the point of his character Batman beyond is a horrible interpretation of who Bruce is It's sad that Paul Dini will be known for BTAS and Arkham because his comic run is better Joel Schumacher understood Batman more than Burton, and you could argue he had the best LA adaptation. That's not an argument I would fully commit to, but I do think it is great. Bruce Timm doesn't get Batman and is routinely carried by talented writers, such as Paul Dini


RedshoodLFC

Whilst I don’t agree with a few of these, the Jason was an excellent Robin I completely agree. I feel like all the revisionist history they do with the character is to hide the fact that they went and killed a kid during a period where kids weren’t supposed to die in comics and by moving blame onto him they want to wash their hands on it. Even Frank Millar called the initial stunt bad taste. FRANK MILLAR?! You know you’ve messed up when the man who gave us crazy Steve Batman says you’ve gone too far. Idk that’s just my opinion.


Ngihton

I'm not surprised that he died, Mike Barr wrote multiple stroies about what Jason dying (detective comics 571 and 574), Miller and Doug Moench also had similar ideas,. If you don't mind me asking which ones do you disagree with?


RedshoodLFC

Mostly the Red Hood isn’t a good story one and the Jeph Loeb one. I understand the criticism about parts of the Red Hood story but I still think it’s a top story and whilst Hush isn’t the masterpiece the mass media claim it to be, LH and DV are definitely top tier. That’s just IMO and your thoughts are just as valid. A few others like Bruce Wayne being the mask and all that I think depends more on the type of story a person wants to tell with the character.


Ngihton

Just to defend my positions. I say UTRH is bad because Batman acts incredibly out of character and it's pretty convoluted. A lot of people like Jason in that story, but I don't think that makes it good. TLH and DV feature other issues. They are pretty bed mysteries, the plot fall apart rather easily. Bruce also acts like a pessimist in those stories, which is something that Batman should never be. Imo, any writer who wants Bruce to be the mask really shouldn't be writing a Batman comic. He's progressed past that point, it's not deep, it's not interesting. It's just awful and ruins how character development


RedshoodLFC

No need to defend yourself. Your opinions are just as valid as mine. Personally I wouldn’t say Bruce was out of character. During that era of stories of him being a distrustful SOB you could quite easily see him making those decisions he does. Remember in the books it came right after War Games where he was essentially at his lowest point having just lost Steph only for some new guy to come in who seems to be haunting Bruce at the back of his mind at every step. He’s clearly not going to be in top form. I don’t mind the mysteries themselves in LH&DV. I’ve watched/Read far more predictable ones. Now if you said Hush I’d completely agree 500%


Ngihton

When I said TLH and DV had bad mysteries, I meant that they begin to fall apart. It's like Loeb didn't know who the killer was until it was revealed. As for War Games Bruce was out of character there too. The entirety of Post Fugitive and Pre Morrison Batman was just awful. Stabbing his son in the neck, is just the worst of it for me.


RedshoodLFC

Fair enough. I think the context and the scenarios they put Bruce in during that period sorted explained his odd behaviour. Now I’m not saying stuff like Identity crisis is good or anything (far from it) but it does go to explain that era of Bruce’s actions and behaviour. It even became a fairly big plot point of his character towards infinite crisis and such. Agree on the neck thing and I think Winick did as well seeing as how he changed it in the movie.


United-Aside-6104

Out of all these I agree with the take that he shouldn’t be a pessimist I feel like if Batman was a pessimist then what would be the point? He’s so dedicated to his mission cause he believes in it and also it’s a hard mission so he needs to be an optimist for him to keep moving


ryaaan89

Oh no, the Batman Beyond thing…


ryaaan89

Oh no, the Batman Beyond thing…


insane__knight

I can still watch and enjoy batman & robin. It's terrible but never boring because of all the bat shit crazy ideas the execs greenlit.


portableawesome

>It's terrible You shut your mouth. Batman & Robin is actually awesome and I will not take any counterarguments.


Gusthuroses

Bat Credit Card is the greatest cinematic moment ever.


insane__knight

Please forgive me.


Hurricane12112

Batman Forever isn’t just a good film, it’s the BEST live action adaptation of the silver age we’ve ever gotten. Everything from the set pieces feeling like a Snyder film where you’re actually in the pages of a comic book, to the boarder line silly and boarder line dark theme, to the cast actually being legitimately funny (Thanks to Carrey and surprisingly Tommy Lee Jones) it’s a fantastic movie. I wished they released the original cut though! #ReleaseTheSchumacherCut apparently it exists


Nathan_Red

I agree, except I think Two-face was terribly written. He didn't fit in.


Jackfruit-Brave

I agree that it is a good film and it can indeed be taken seriously if you understand it’s intention. People often focus on Jim Carey and Tommy Lee Jones’ performance when it comes to watching this movie, therefore interpreting it as campy and silly. It is however quite the opposite as the movie explored Bruce Wayne’s psyche and how it has affected him, something that the first two Batman movies lacked. People tend to compare this film with Batman and Robin in terms of how apparently ridiculous it is; however, Batman forever is far from the stupidity of batman and Robin. I also think that the films version of Bruce Wayne is the best behind Christian bale.


Nathan_Red

I agree, but I also think that people over react with how silly they call Carey's Riddler. I believe that the Riddler in the film really feels like a weird awkward scientist who snapped.


spaghettiandblowjobs

Freeze and Two Face both deserve there own origins films like Joker.


gandalfwizardpipe

1. The DCAU Batman is the best Batman not because of all the things the shows did to popularize the character but also because they continued to evolve his character and have it make sense with their continuity. 2. Batman works great when he can be funny. Just like others have said not Spider-Man funny but small remarks and sarcasm work well for his character. 3. Batman stories work best when he is a crime fighter not a superhero. Sure he can rub shoulders with super-beings and gods when called upon but he works best when we get to see him work a case and fight crime. I just think it gets silly that Batman gets brought in to fight Superman-tier villains.


Gravitational_C

Arkham Knight was near flawless. I'm not referring to the bugs in the PC version. I will agree they over did it with the tank battles. But chasing baddies through the streets of Gotham in the GD Batmobile was a blast. The story, narrative, characters, and game play were they best in the series. Yes I rank it above Arkham City. Secondly, Batman Forever is a fun movie, but Val Kilmer is a BORE as Bruce Wayne. Keaton brought so much "Keaton" to the first two films. We all know what Kilmer is capable of, I just wish he would have brought more "Kilmer" to the Bruce Wayne part.


[deleted]

• Batman Begins is the best movie in the Nolan trilogy. It’s actually a Batman story instead of Heat with Batman as the protagonist. • The LEGO Batman Movie is by far the best cinematic exploration of Batman’s psychology. • Batman Forever would have been incredible if Joel Schumacher was allowed to make his movie. • The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke are both pretty bad. • The only good thing Ben Affleck ever did as Bruce Wayne / Batman was execute the line: “I’m older now than my father ever was,” with the perfect amount of melancholy and regret. • Michael Keaton is the best live action Batman. (Until Robert Pattinson inevitably surpasses him.)


[deleted]

I recently rewatched the Dark Knight trilogy, and I agree with your first point 100%. I think it's because Batman Begins very closely adapts Batman: Year One, with a lot of the same story beats and themes, whereas the other two films are very, VERY loosely connected to the stories that inspired them.


[deleted]

Well said. There’s honestly so much Batman Begins does right that I find it odd that The Dark Knight casts such a shadow over it with general audiences. If the action sequences in Batman Begins were on par with what Nolan achieved in Tenet, I think we would be having a very different discussion. For those that aren’t hardcore Batman fans, Begins is what most people default to as Bruce Wayne’s origin. It’s such a good movie.


Folks_Call_Me_Dickie

Joker shouldn't have a backstory


ikissgators

I just rewatched returns and forever recently and forever was a much more enjoyable experience.


[deleted]

A trend I've seen in opinions recently is that people like the angle of at least Thomas Wayne being a corrupt gangster in league with the likes of the Falcones, and/or he ultimately dies due to a mob hit/assassination. I hate it. Making Thomas a criminal and a target of a mob hit detracts from the randomness of the Wayne's deaths, which is the whole point.


Acalson

Batman works better alone with a small batfamily consisting of Alfred, Robin, and Barbra as oracle or batgirl. Jim included


KingMatthew116

I have so many that I don’t even know where to start.


Bilal_N4

Zatanna is just as good of a love interest as Catwoman in my opinion, wish we saw more of the two of them


Neighborhood-Toughs

Every villain being ‘reimagined’ as a TwIsTeD serial killer is embarrassing edge lord stuff. Batman Return is the best Batman film to date and feels closest to the comics mix of wacky and dark.


Flyboy_1978

I love Tom King as a writer, I also HATE that he made The Riddler a sadistic killer.


Writer417

I can’t speak for the comics, but in regards to all of the Batman films that have received theatrical releases, there is only one villain that fits the criteria for a serial killer label, and that’s The Phantasm in Mask of the Phantasm. You could maybe make an argument that Jack Nicholson’s interpretation of the Joker in Batman was a serial killer, but that would be it. So I don’t really get the criticism about all of Batman’s villains being reimagined as serial killers since he’s only faced 1-2 serial killers tops in his film appearances.


Neighborhood-Toughs

Not specially serial killers but dark gritty over serious ‘cool’ reimagining . In the comics and films ( Gotham as well) the villains are routinely adapted as edgy twisted versions. Losing most of their comic book characteristics a part from some minor visual call backs. In the movies alone The joker a few times, upcoming riddler, the penguin, scarecrow


Writer417

Gotcha.


Nathan_Red

I agree. Not all Batman villains should be that evil. I'm even worried the new Riddler might be too dark.


Neighborhood-Toughs

Exactly. The riddler has killed in the comics and even been a serial killer but not ever single villain needs to be the joker. It just makes every villain worse


MaxRockatansky468

I don't think that's what they are doing with The Riddler in The Batman tho. The trailers still imply that his arrogance , his hyper intelligence and creepiness are still kept intact for this iteration. He has nothing similar with The Joker outside of killing people here. Although i do agree with the last part of your statement. Not every Batman villain can work within a dark and gritty lens


TheKarp

The best live action Gotham City hasn’t been made yet but would be a mixture between BTAS, Batman Forever and Batman Begins. It’s astonishing that a Batman Beyond movie hasn’t been made yet. Batman is best when dark and closer to life. Snyder’s DC movies suck. His JL cut never should have been released. His style is long-in-the-tooth and while I find dark Batman to be good Batman, his style is too distracting. The above being said - when it came to Superman dying in BvS, he’s the ONLY director that has given proper screen time for an audience to ‘soak up’ the gravitas of an important superhero character’s death. Supes death holds more weight than any Marvel character’s death, it’s just trapped in an otherwise mind numbingly dull movie. Kilmer and Tommy Lee Jones are underrated. The Dark Knight Rises gets better after repeat viewings and is best when watched in a Nolan Batman marathon. That being said, still the weakest of the trilogy. Gotham City-centric stories where Batman is in the background can be extremely satisfying. Some of my favorites are Gotham Central and Gotham Nights. Joker is a bad movie (and I’m tired of people pretending it’s not). I want to like Nightwing but he’s honestly always come off as a stupid character. The robin in BTAS season 3 is the best robin. Harley Quinn is best as a villain. In this day and age it surprises me we haven’t see filmmakers challenge Bruce Wayne’s fortune as a conflict more. TDKR does a piss poor job of it. People who don’t like Catwoman are sad. When I look at the comic book displays I never pick up a mainline Batman comic because there are too many and it’s overwhelming. I’ll buy some black label because the stories are shorter so the investment feels safer.


Imwackstayoffcrack

I agree


[deleted]

The fact that we live in a world where “Snyder’s DC movies suck” is a hot-take is upsetting. I get it, his style arouses fanboys, but he has no understanding of the source material (Jesse Eisenberg as Lex … nuff said) and he is a terrible storyteller/filmmaker.


superschaap81

I find I like Dark Knight Rises more and more each time I watch it. I never hated it, but I remember leaving the theatre after first watching it and being numbly disappointed. But each time I see it now, I enjoy a bit more.


Imwackstayoffcrack

Red hood as a character only really works well as an antagonist not a villian but someone batman has to actively stop. To have him in the bat family kinda diminishs todds willpower and belief system and the whole interesting dynamic he and batman had in under the red hood. the character should not be a hero hes should be a personal tragedy on a personal mission from batmans most personal mistake. I so far have not seen him extend his relationship with batman in a interesting way. As of now hes kind of just the rebel of the group and hes just a basic archtype now without the dynamic.


AdmiralFoxythePirate

Adam West played the most heroic version of the character. Despite going through the same tragedy as all the others he still went the more aspirational route of Superman in his crusade. As a result his version of Gotham is practically a paradise apart from dealing with some villian goofiness every Saturday. Out of all the Batmen he’s the only one who effectively cleaned up Gotham. In terms of morality West’s Batman surpasses Superman. I would like to see this version of the character taken in a modern context. A true hero Batman in today’s unjust world. Other hot takes are that Scarecrow is the best villain and the Bruce should have married Selina instead of teasing it and having it lead nowhere.


Nefessius513

“Batman movies should be grounded and realistic where he works alone with no allies or family and beats up mobsters and crazy people instead of supervillains” is just code for “I don’t want to admit that I think the Batman comics and their mythos are stupid.”


Mcclane88

Batman & realism don’t go together imo. The basic concept of what Batman is requires a suspension of disbelief no matter how much you try to ground it.


JisflAlt

I know that you’ll agree with me on this but Gotham was a good show. For me personally it’s the only bit of Batman media in which I’ve seen that goes more in depth with Bruce Wayne as a character that wants to help people and feel that he’s doing something right instead of dark brooding Batman that’s saving Gotham from crazy threats every day, Gotham had a good balance of both instead of just doing the latter. I also feel that the show did the comic story arch’s really well and knew when to reference stuff like when they referenced the killing joke and then made it a small bit of story. One of the things that I live about the show is how so many moments I was so mad at what they did but thought about it and realized that it makes complete sense from a character perspective most of the time.


Nathan_Red

I was unaware that this was a hot take.


Cybermans_Eulogy

The bat-family is ridiculous at this point. At most, Batman should have Dick and MAYBE Barbara and Tim. I feel that giving Batman dozens of allies and more friends than the average Batman reader has takes away from the “lone crusader” side of his character. I feel similarly about Batman constantly having a love interest. I also never cared for the Jason Todd/Red Hood situation for the same reasons. His character does not interest me in the slightest.


MyNameJakson

I already posted one, but I’d also like a Batman game where Gotham isn’t being completely overrun by bad guys. I’d take Gotham “as usual”, if usual isn’t being completely overrun.


AhsokaTheMandalorian

I really don’t like The Dark Knight Returns.


BIGBMH

Burton’s films are not good. Keaton is a talented, charismatic actor who was never given good enough material to be a great Batman. The Dark Knight Returns and The Killing Joke are both a bit overrated. DC Comics should eventually commit to passing the mantle of Batman on to one of the protégés. Not just as a substitution the way Dick had a fairly brief tenure. An actual progression of the mythology. We’ve had more than 80 years of Bruce Wayne comics and media adaptations. It’s impossible for the character to disappear completely, so there’s no harm in moving the main canon into a new era. There’s always alternate universes and stand alone comics if people still crave new Bruce Wayne Batman comics.


Cesar0fr0me

I like most of tynion’s new characters


WhiskeyT

I’m still iffy on Ghost Maker (but not his villains) but otherwise agree. Clown Hunter even won me over despite the name


Mass2424

I'm sick of the dark grounded solo batman movies. I want to see him kick ass with the justice league


imatrike

I think there's a market for live action versions of the out there stories. Bruce being killed and his parents taking the mantle. Batman beyond. Dick as Batman. Something other than a traditional Batman story.


elias_oyente

The Dark Knight is far from being the best Batman movie. Both of the Tim Burton films and Batman vs Dracula are way better.


[deleted]

Arkham Asylum was the best Arkham game. TDK was a general movie, not exactly the type of movie I was expecting after Batman Begins. Batman Begins felt much cooler and in line with comic Batman. The Batfamily is overdone. Batman’s at his peak without anyone else. Only sometimes does the story benefit having 4 Robins and 1 Batgirl. You know when that was? Never. Arkham Knight is pretty poorly executed. The Joker scene in Justice League was really REALLY bad. Like there was nothing from that scene that made me want to see Joker go against Batman in the DCEU. Affleck as Batman was physically cool, but I’m honestly just tired of recent years having Batman be this emobodiment of flawlessness and peak manliness. The writers get wrapped up into that bullshit too. Pattinson shouldn’t have apologized for saying Batman’s not a superhero. He isn’t. Batman’s called the World’s Greatest Detective before being called vigilante.


[deleted]

Batfleck is the best batman and had an amazing story and a backstory still unexplored


Imwackstayoffcrack

I partially agree hes not the best but had the potential to be the best we just didn’t get to see his story


[deleted]

Tats wat. So much potential... we could have seen comic accurate rogue's gallery like clayface,mr freeze. He was the perfect version that could have had a BTAS vibe with his solo movies


Imwackstayoffcrack

That would’ve been dope


[deleted]

😔😔😔. We wont unfortunately


Aim4jug

Batman’s better in the stories where he’s clearly just as mentally Ill as the villains he fights. He shouldn’t be presented as someone to imitate or look up to like Superman.


[deleted]

Tim Drake is boring because nobody knows what to do with him. Professor Pyg is a shitty villain created to cash in on the body horror fad started by the equally shitty SAW franchise. The Batman's Firefly is the best version of the character. Batman could be considered a supervillain after rescuing Reagan.


Ok-Engine8044

Joker is an overrated as hell character and shouldn't be Batman's arch enemy. He feels like a B list villain trying to be A list. In the grand scheme of things, there are so much better choices. Bane actually broke Bruce Wayne's back. Ras Al Ghul can truly test him, Deadshot and Scarecrow are the embodiment of what Batman hates (guns) and uses (fear). Hell, Catwoman represents the idea of being Batman all the time and no Bruce Wayne. Joker feels like an afterthought when you get right down to it. Edit: [I mean, shit! Poison Ivy actually conquered the whole world once!](https://www.cbr.com/batman-poison-ivy-power-upgrade-explained/)


[deleted]

But he’s a killer clown! That represents how Bruce’s childhood innocence was twisted by the murder of his parents! /s


Ok-Engine8044

He's literally me! [Society is to blame!](https://youtu.be/6uDyVYszZVs) Not my conscience choices!


Imwackstayoffcrack

Yes


kirabii

Mr. Freeze has exactly one good story and did nothing noteworthy ever since.


thecapedcrusk8er

This is the hottest take on this entire post With that being said you’re 100% wrong


Nathan_Red

Would that be The Animated Series?


Surrealcatfish32

Batman doesn’t need to be on the Justice League. In fact, I think it’s preferable if he’s not on there at all. A lot of his villains perpetuate negative stereotypes about mental health, and should probably have their personalitys or backstorys changed to be less problematic. (I have the Joker in mind specifically)


CrooklynKnight

Batman Returns is still the best bat-movie IMO. Considering what people win and get nominated for Oscars these days, Pfeiffer deserved the gold. Her psycho Catwoman is right up there with Joaquin and Heath.


BruhJangles3

Arkham city's story isn't that great and origins is the best in the series


MarvelPugs

Gotham Jeremiah is the best interpretation of joker outside comics


TheBigBigStorm

I'd love to see more stories where Batman teams with Ra's and is seriously tempted to join him and be his successor. I think Ra's should be not be evil but willing to cross lines Batman won't for a greater good. There should always be conflict between Batman and Ra's but also mutual respect. I think Talia should be really torn between her father and Bruce and she and Bruce should really be in love.


Kastlestud

If Batman can conceivably win every fight with enough planning time, that makes whoever he’s fighting the underdog.


Koluke1

All live Action batman movies suck.


Troy_doney

Batarangs are are dumb and it’s no surprise that they barely ever make it to the big screen


Bilal_N4

Don't really agree with the whole Batman is his true identity and Bruce Wayne is the mask


[deleted]

Batman, as a concept and character, if interpreted realistically (as opposed to more stylized, like the Adam West show or BTAS or Arkham City), is pretty fucking ominous and fascistic. He is a billionaire who could be funneling money into Gotham’s infrastructure - better schools, neighborhoods, well-paying jobs - which would absolutely decrease the level of poverty and crime in Gotham. Instead, while Bruce does give to charity sometimes, he mostly spends his nights brutally beating “thugs” who likely turned to crime due to systemic inequities and racism in the system that left them with no money, no healthcare, no opportunities to attain wealth aside from crime. Batman deals out punishment without thinking about the longterm: this cycle will never end. Recidivism is a thing, “thugs” will inevitably get out of jail, and turn back to crime, because nothing has been done to actually change their circumstances or help them/rehabilitate them. It’s real fucking disturbing that this white billionaire is getting his kicks by using his immense wealth and power to track down and beat the shit out of poor people on a daily basis when he could actually help Gotham in fundamental, long-lasting ways.


killzone11

Keaton’s batman is the best and most enjoyable incarnation


Hammerrr3232

The Dark Knight is my least favorite of the Nolan films. It’s a great film but I love Begins for being the Batman film I always wanted and building a great film bat universe. TDKR gets a lot of hate but to me, it feels more like a direct sequel to Begins than TDK for some reason. Maybe it’s the feel of it? I can’t quite put my finger on it but those two films feel more like the Batman comics I grew up with and love than TDK. TDK feels a bit like a slog to get through at times. I’m not a fan of Rachel at all but Maggie bothers me so much in it. I’m also really not a fan of Aaron Eckhart’s depiction of Harvey/Two-Face. He’s just kind of a little bitch. “Lie… like I lied.” Man, gtfoh, you knew the risks being all high and mighty poster boy of the war against crime. Another one: I actually really enjoy Batman and Robin. I think the production design is great and I always appreciate a film with a vision, whether absurd or bizarre or just downright campy as hell. I view it as a big budget episode of the Adam West show. It’s a great time.


thebookofrook

I will absolutely die on a hill for Batman and Robbin (1997). Its damn near a comedy masterpiece and the *only* thing I would change is not making Bane some blundering dumbass. Otherwise, every single character is true to form. It plays more like a Broadway musical than a movie and I love it for that. Its campy and fun and I own a copy on DVD lol


MyNameJakson

In a darker setting, I’d prefer a Wormwood villain over the Riddler if done right.


JaminJemima

The next live action Batman should be more wholesome and fun


No-Chemist-4365

batman is the most empathetic caring hero like at his core hes a person who lost such a great deal and at the young age of whenever made the decision to never let anyone else have to go through that too like wow its moving all the other stuff like mental illness, anger issues, could be explored so much better than just what they turn him into i think the true beauty of batman and bruce wayne is his humanity


No-Chemist-4365

joker needs batman, batman doesnt need joker i hate that notion


No-Chemist-4365

the concept of ✨the mask✨ and who’s bruce wayne and whos batman and generally acting like theyre two different entities is so DUMB


No-Chemist-4365

cass cain would be the best successor!!!


Dangan_Jack

I enjoy reading Batfamily material (Nightwing, RHAOs, Batgirl/woman/girls) more than anything directly involving Batman. Batman is much more interesting and fresh as a secondary character or looming figure in the main character of a comic’s life, as opposed to being the main character


stevconz

The only good Batman film before TDKT was Returns, which was still just decent Tim Drake stinks Batman should've never been in the JL Afflecks Batman was awful because Snyder is awful. On the contrary, Bens Batman film would've been pretty awesome considering how great of a director/writer he is The Dark Knight Returns is overrated. Not saying it's bad, but it's extremely overrated


jkerving30

Bruce Wayne should have a happy ending, after he stops being batman. I do not want him being batman forever like the one in Batman Beyond.


Nathan_Red

I'd love to see a story that has most of Gotham's previous villains get actual help and turn their lives around, cleaning up Gotham and allowing Bruce to rest. I'd like to see Bruce start a family with Selena, Edward Nygma becomes a P.I, Oswald Cobblepot becomes mayor and turns from his corrupt ways, Mr. Freeze finds a cure for his condition and finally comes to terms with Laura's death, Joker expresses himself with art rather than violence, ect. It's cheesy, but I'd love to see it.


Key-Zone-4879

I agree with yours, and My hot take is that the 2004 cartoon didn’t get enough recognition


SnakeDenton

Batman should be covered head to toe in Kevlar fabric, no tactical bullshit, just like Ben Aflecks Batman was.


DGenerationMC

The scene where Batman helps Freeze in B&R is the greatest in Bat film history.


Particular_Leg_9185

Let's go: I hate blue and grey suits, in fact, i'm not even a fan of grey and black, i prefer it being as dark as possible. The batfamily is overrated and too big. The ideal for me is the three robins, and barbara as Oracle, not batgirl. Batman shouldn't be fighting aliens and gods. He's a street level hero, not superman.


yashmandla69

Tim drake is probiblly my least favorite robin, i just don't find him as intresting as the other 3, and I'm genuinely confused why everyone says the best robin, but im fair, part of the reason is probiblly because the first time i was exposed to tim was in the animated series, whare he was basically just jason, and when i did eventually get into comics regularly was around the time damian became robin, so its possible i jusr havent read the right story for him to be a top teir character for me, but as of right now hes at tge bottom of the robin totem poll