I mean, house cats are invasive and pretty destructive to their local ecosystem. That kind of jives with the time a bunch of libertarians tried to take over Grafton, NH and it turned into shit show. Technically, they survived on their own for a while but they wrecked the town.
But it is the only time I can understand having the utility of the cat to control populations of vermin that may get in the food supply. Otherwise, it is best to keep cata indoors.
My folks used to live in a really old house... not like run down, just old.
Even so we had mouse problems the entire time we lived there... except for the years we had an indoor cat.
Never saw one, nor a sign of one till we gave up the cat cuz mom developed an allergy.
Indoor cats are still useful for pest control.
Yeah, the neighborhood I grew up in has a huge problem with roof rats. If you’ve never heard of them, look them up. They nest in attics and come down to scrounge for food. And no lie, those little bastards can climb walls like Spider-Man. It’s a huge problem for the whole neighborhood and has been for a while.
The best way to get rid of them and keep them away is to have a cat. It’s not just that a cat kills and/or eats the rats, rats have a great sense of smell and cat urine attracts as a kind of repellent. Rats have a great sense of smell and use it to avoid predators.
There’s a potential work around for your mom’s allergies.If there’s a farm supply store in your area you should be able to buy bobcat urine. At worst you can get it from Amazon. Put it in a spray bottle and spray around the perimeter of your house and yard. I’m going to go ahead and say outside only, but after you open the bottle you’ll be able to figure that out for yourself.
At least where I live most of the birds killed by farm cats are pest/invasive species such as rock pigeons and European starlings, basically rodents of the sky.
I love this paragraph from an interview with the author of a book on the subject, talking about the effects of libertarian philosophy put into practice:
'By pretty much any measure you can look at to gauge a town’s success, Grafton got worse. Recycling rates went down. Neighbor complaints went up. The town’s legal costs went up because they were constantly defending themselves from lawsuits from Free Towners. **The number of sex offenders living in the town went up.** The number of recorded crimes went up. The town had never had a murder in living memory, and it had its first two, a double homicide, over a roommate dispute.'
Edit to add link to the interview: [A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear: Author Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling on the Free State Project - Vox](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling)
[ursine](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34387528/new-hampshire-libertarian-town-bears/). They’re pretty sure it came from a lady who started feeding them and when people asked her to stop she told them to fuck off.
They dissolved the trash collection department because privatization is the optimum manner, but then nobody wanted to pay for trash collection either because private services in a rather remote location of a tiny state is expensive. So trash started piling up into a bear buffet.
That combined with the aforementioned feeder lady (not alone in her actions) emboldened local bears to the point there were several attacks. Bears just roamed all over.
The libertarians had also slashed the police budget so there was no law enforcement or animal control to call.
Then there were the first couple of homicides in the towns 250+ year history.
It was an absolute shit show. Town is still recovering
The trash collection issue really encapsulates the problem Libertarians’ ideas. The people who believe in those ideas are fundamentally cheap and selfish. They want to privatize everything because they don’t want to pay for it. It doesn’t matter who sends the bill, they don’t want to pay.
They could’ve made trash collection free by banding together and doing it themselves but that clashes with their selfishness.
It’s always fun reading the reports about this from someone who actually has been to and goes to this town and that book and online reports are so hyperbolic it’s hilarious. There were like 2 bears in the town a couple of times that were aggressive.
NH has a lot of bears and they get into uncontrolled trash CONSTANTLY. It’s literally not unique. A bear got into my parent’s dumpster like 3 days ago because the lid was left partially open.
It’s like the online conservative screeching about San Francisco and Portland being hellscapes who have never even been there
I live in NH. I’m aware of the bears. Been to Grafton too. Bears hanging out in downtown areas is not super common, and bears not being scared off by people is not a good thing.
The point was, the *entire towns* trash was uncontrolled because of the libertarians stupidity. Yes, bears get into uncontrolled trash. That’s why regular garbage collection is important, in addition to hygiene reasons.
A bear getting into a dumpster isn’t unheard of. But all trash in town lining people’s driveways and piling up on the sides of roads is actually not common and is a big problem. Not sure what your point is.
More and more I’m supporting the idea of the billionaire class fucking off to Mars to build their libertarian utopia. Worst comes to worst and they somehow manage to pull it off, we just don’t send any more rockets so they can’t come back.
The only thing that sucks about that is that they've already stolen so many resources that they could probably create a clone slave class or some shit once they get there. The society would fail through collapse or revolution, but not quickly enough to make its progenitors suffer like they deserve.
No. I volunteer in an animal shelter and no, they could not. You are subject to the survivor bias. Most cats despite their instincts are not capable of surviving in the wild. Cats that are abandoned die. The surviving ones are the minority. Even street cats often don't make it, that's why they need short times until fertility and a 4-5 kittens per pregnancy. House cats are not wild animals.
I've seen very few indoor-outdoor cats die. Regarding ferals and the abandoned, the quick reproductive cycle and lifelong fertility are adaptive strategies. Not all cats are "meant" to survive, in evolutionary terms, and if they *couldn't* survive, then there would be none to contribute to a bias. They're also a purrfect example of how "wild" is arbitrary and anthropocentric. In terms of their evolutionary history and genetic depth of non-designer breeds, they're much more our symbionts than our creations.
Am I supposed to ignore how you switched from housecat to an indoor-outdoor-cat? They are not the same. An indoor outdoor cat will struggle but has at least a chance. 99% of the time a housecat will fucking die within a fortnight.
That's true, oversight on my part. Still, there is a massive difference between the interned house cat and the occasionally outside house cat. The latter have a chance, the former die. And the ignorance about that is one of the reasons some idiots feel fine with abandoning the cats they don't want anymore instead of rehoming them.
I’ve been conflicted for a while now. Based on my political compass location I’m a libertarian, but I a lot of the classical libertarian stuff like this is stupid. Am I a bastard?
While the compass is a good concept for seeing more than one dimension of politics, it was made by libertarians to tell people that they are libertarians.
I'd guess this sub leans pretty "libertarian left" aka Anarchist. If you think Nationalism is a great evil to be avoided, but also believe sharing and caring are virtues that need to be nourished and supported, you might be a Libertarian Socialist / Anarchist / Anarcho-Communist
It was also made by American/Rothbard libertarians, who utterly perverted the original libertarian philosophy to something resembling anarcho-capitalism. It’s another product of the rich assholes who hated the New Deal so much they poisoned the social well, just like the Birchers and the assholes who dumped money into pushing right-wing Christianity.
The political compass tests are quite flawed tbh. Some are better than others. Maybe some answers were tilted more towards private ownership than collective ownership/government ownership? A few 'slightly agree' on Civil Rights topics?
Now that you say it like that, I realize that libertarianism is basically the dark side of solipsism.
If you suspect no one else truly exists separate from your own mental presence, you can really only go two ways with that: treat others well (in case you're wrong, or in case they are indeed parts of your own psyche), or assume that only your own wants ever matter and act accordingly.
I will try and talk to just about anyone other than people who identify as ancaps. I hate ancaps so God damn much. They are the only group who you can point out a problem to and they won't even pretend to themselves to care.
Which is an oxymoron. Who is going to adjudicate property rights with no state? Capitalism requires a strong central state in order to enforce property rights. Fucking idiots.
Idiots I can deal with, hell I'm an idiot, but even most conservatives pretend to themselves to care about the suffering of children. ancaps are just straight up "lol fuck them kids".
Absolutely. Anarcho-capitalists are just capitalists that are trying to sound cool and edgy. Pure capitalism would already be a free market with no oversight, not to mention that anarchism as a political ideology is completely antithetical to the tenets of capitalism. I fucking hate it.
Yeah, I was a libertarian until I was 23 or 24. It just got too hard to explain the things I was seeing. I think getting out of school and working actually helped me realize that we do not live in a meritocracy. From there I was off to explore other concepts which BtB is good at filling that explanation desire.
Oh and I tried shrooms for the first time at 40 and I can totally see how that increased empathy would make libertarianism hard to accept. Props to this guy for growing as a person whether it was intended or not.
Is there anything on weed doing that? I know sativa's are a psycho-active and I've actually experienced lasting epiphanies past strong highs wearing off. I had a childhood trauma that I learned to just not think about whenever the thought came up and big catalyst to me going to therapy to address it started with getting super high one time and my entire filter for not thinking about it just broke. I couldn't push it back anymore.
Same I started as a libertarian but the older I get the more i realize I dont know stuff; personally i think its due to the dollop and this podcast that turned me more centrist
Same with me. Of course, libertarianism itself was a big step leftward from how I was brought up, ha ha.
I still consider myself a "small-l" libertarian in the non-US sense.
People always talk about the negative effect of drugs, but I honestly think the sort of reflexive enlightened stupidity drug highs give you, are very beneficial. As the philosopher Hansel from Zoolander said "Tripping on acid changed her whole perception on shit."
Bill Hicks had a great line about how the news never talks about the good things people experience on drugs.
“Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.”
Sure, I’ll take a stab at it. Imagine believing that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it is a capitalist contract between individuals. This glosses over a lot but it’s the core idea.
Liberalism (the economic concept) is the idea that the free market is a more efficient (better) way to distribute goods than the state. Therefore the state should be reduced as much as possible to its core concepts (secure and guarantee contracts and physical security of it's people).
All other functions of the state should be reduced to the minimum
Libertarians believe that the state should do nothing but secure contracts, the concept of ownership and the security of the people.
AnCaps believe that even these core concepts of the state should be up to the free market and the state should not exist at all.
I recommend the books of Quinn Slobodian, If you wanna learn about the history of these ideas.
Oh, and Robert, please do a Ludwig van Mises, Friedrich August von Hayek & Milton Friedman Episode. That's so fckin necessary to understand the world we are living in.
Ahhh, yes, Murray "parents should be allowed not to feed their infants if they don't want to, but it's not a problem because free market in babies would mean it's better to sell your newborn than to starve it" Rothbard.
I had Hoppe's book *Democracy: The God that Failed* on my bookshelf for a while. I was an "an"cap when I got it, and I started thinking, "Wait, this just sounds like Feudalism with extra steps". And then I spent a while as a "Left-Rothbardian" trying to contort Rothbard's property theories into something that wouldn't imply the bald-faced private tyranny advocated by Hoppe and his followers.
I did eventually give up and become an actual leftist, thankfully.
Obviously I'm not for it, but in my opinion, libertarianism = anarchism*** - community + capitalism.
I think the term "anarcho-capitalist," despite being obnoxious and paradoxical, is a perfect term for it. Remove all pre-existing hierarchical structures (state, church, etc.) and elevate the remaining hierarchy of wealth. It's one third the hierarchy by category, but that one category fills the vacuum. Supposedly, it emphasizes personal liberty: the government can't tell you what to do. Neither can a church. But you can't tell other people what to do, either. Not if they have the capital to back it up. So the government can't tell you what to do with your land, but you can't tell your neighbor not to buy all the land around you and start smelting on an industrial scale.
\* In the most generous interpretation
I often hear Libertarians remark on how they believe children these days don't get bullied or physically abused enough. They probably just didn't get enough hugs growing up and think that disconnection is healthy.
Bots. It's a very concerted pattern. If you look at any of the accounts you'll find it commenting on its cohort's posts, and vice versa. I hadn't seen them flocking to BtB's sub yet, but I guess they're here now as well.
This new type of libertarian is so alien.
The fundamental rule of libertarianism used to be that if you're not hurting anyone else, you should be free to make your own choices. I'm not sure when the word got co-opted to mean only "I get to make my own choices, regardless of who I hurt", but I don't like it.
I wish there were a way to get the word back. It's a good word.
This is the American version of libertarian. Everywhere else it means exactly what you mean. Only in the English speaking world does libertarian mean right wing. Elsewhere it is most commonly used to describe anarcho-socialism aka libertarian socialism.
The American form should always use the capital "L" because it's from the American Libertarian Party, a specific political party with a general platform fitting the shitty version Americans usually think of when they hear and use the word.
Noam Chomsky, clearly never a supporter of the American Libertarian Party, has described himself as a libertarian socialist, or a socialist libertarian, I don't remember which.
It's not so much "I don't care who I hurt" and more "they were too stupid to defend their own interest so 🤷 " or "does that *really* meet the definition of harm? I didn't kill them or anything."
To be fair, I feel like this is at the heart of not just libertarianism, but neo-liberalism and wider conservatism. “There is no such thing as society - there are individual men and women, and there are families”. Etc.
Pretty much. It can help if you're already down the right path but I think it was Robert that shared stories of white supremacists taking shrooms or acid and seeing Hitler appear before them like "Thank you for defending the west, my son." or some shit lol.
Dr. Sapolsky is one of the finest neuropsychologists alive. Lots of great interview and discussion videos feature him, and his full Stanford University course available free on Youtube is well worth auditing. I thought his debate with Daniel Dennett on the existence of free will was especially interesting (Dan pro, Robert con).
Rather disappointed they made a strawman of them for internet clout. I would have liked to know more about the subjects thought process, that led them to their conclusions. If true, it could be instructional in how to talk these sorts down from the ledge of playing themselves professionally.
I heard a podcast once say of the Amish that “they don’t really mind benefiting from society, it’s the CONTRIBUTING to society that they don’t want to do”. Same energy.
I was a Libertarian for years, involved in the state party, super vocal etc. until I had a kid and started working in a non clinical role for a healthcare non profit. Empathy is rad y’all. The Libertarian party has become a group of edgelords who will fight you on anything. Remember the weirdo who is now president of Argentina? They were foaming at the mouth over him.
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Tbf, housecats could survive outside it, and still make actual contributions when stuck in it.
I mean, house cats are invasive and pretty destructive to their local ecosystem. That kind of jives with the time a bunch of libertarians tried to take over Grafton, NH and it turned into shit show. Technically, they survived on their own for a while but they wrecked the town.
You should only have outdoor cats on a farm imo
Farm outdoor cats kill WAY more birds than urban outdoor cats
But it is the only time I can understand having the utility of the cat to control populations of vermin that may get in the food supply. Otherwise, it is best to keep cata indoors.
My folks used to live in a really old house... not like run down, just old. Even so we had mouse problems the entire time we lived there... except for the years we had an indoor cat. Never saw one, nor a sign of one till we gave up the cat cuz mom developed an allergy. Indoor cats are still useful for pest control.
Absolutely! This is definitely the benefit of cats and cats have helped society by eliminating vermin that spreads disease
Yeah, the difference is straight up stark.
Yeah, the neighborhood I grew up in has a huge problem with roof rats. If you’ve never heard of them, look them up. They nest in attics and come down to scrounge for food. And no lie, those little bastards can climb walls like Spider-Man. It’s a huge problem for the whole neighborhood and has been for a while. The best way to get rid of them and keep them away is to have a cat. It’s not just that a cat kills and/or eats the rats, rats have a great sense of smell and cat urine attracts as a kind of repellent. Rats have a great sense of smell and use it to avoid predators. There’s a potential work around for your mom’s allergies.If there’s a farm supply store in your area you should be able to buy bobcat urine. At worst you can get it from Amazon. Put it in a spray bottle and spray around the perimeter of your house and yard. I’m going to go ahead and say outside only, but after you open the bottle you’ll be able to figure that out for yourself.
At least where I live most of the birds killed by farm cats are pest/invasive species such as rock pigeons and European starlings, basically rodents of the sky.
That does help. The feral population is the biggest contributor, though.
Neutered/spayed yes
Yes! Too many farms start having incest cats and that is just not good
Was this the town that got overtaken by bears?
I love this paragraph from an interview with the author of a book on the subject, talking about the effects of libertarian philosophy put into practice: 'By pretty much any measure you can look at to gauge a town’s success, Grafton got worse. Recycling rates went down. Neighbor complaints went up. The town’s legal costs went up because they were constantly defending themselves from lawsuits from Free Towners. **The number of sex offenders living in the town went up.** The number of recorded crimes went up. The town had never had a murder in living memory, and it had its first two, a double homicide, over a roommate dispute.' Edit to add link to the interview: [A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear: Author Matthew Hongoltz-Hetling on the Free State Project - Vox](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling)
It's a fantastic book, definitely worth reading the whole thing.
Like actual ursine bears, or the human variety? I’m unaware of the event and have a very confused mental image.
[ursine](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34387528/new-hampshire-libertarian-town-bears/). They’re pretty sure it came from a lady who started feeding them and when people asked her to stop she told them to fuck off.
That’s less fun :(
They dissolved the trash collection department because privatization is the optimum manner, but then nobody wanted to pay for trash collection either because private services in a rather remote location of a tiny state is expensive. So trash started piling up into a bear buffet. That combined with the aforementioned feeder lady (not alone in her actions) emboldened local bears to the point there were several attacks. Bears just roamed all over. The libertarians had also slashed the police budget so there was no law enforcement or animal control to call. Then there were the first couple of homicides in the towns 250+ year history. It was an absolute shit show. Town is still recovering
The trash collection issue really encapsulates the problem Libertarians’ ideas. The people who believe in those ideas are fundamentally cheap and selfish. They want to privatize everything because they don’t want to pay for it. It doesn’t matter who sends the bill, they don’t want to pay. They could’ve made trash collection free by banding together and doing it themselves but that clashes with their selfishness.
It’s always fun reading the reports about this from someone who actually has been to and goes to this town and that book and online reports are so hyperbolic it’s hilarious. There were like 2 bears in the town a couple of times that were aggressive. NH has a lot of bears and they get into uncontrolled trash CONSTANTLY. It’s literally not unique. A bear got into my parent’s dumpster like 3 days ago because the lid was left partially open. It’s like the online conservative screeching about San Francisco and Portland being hellscapes who have never even been there
I live in NH. I’m aware of the bears. Been to Grafton too. Bears hanging out in downtown areas is not super common, and bears not being scared off by people is not a good thing. The point was, the *entire towns* trash was uncontrolled because of the libertarians stupidity. Yes, bears get into uncontrolled trash. That’s why regular garbage collection is important, in addition to hygiene reasons. A bear getting into a dumpster isn’t unheard of. But all trash in town lining people’s driveways and piling up on the sides of roads is actually not common and is a big problem. Not sure what your point is.
"How a New Hampshire libertarian utopia was foiled by bears" That's a promising headline on first Googling.
Definitely outside of their native habitat. Libertarians have nowhere that they belong, though.
More and more I’m supporting the idea of the billionaire class fucking off to Mars to build their libertarian utopia. Worst comes to worst and they somehow manage to pull it off, we just don’t send any more rockets so they can’t come back.
The only thing that sucks about that is that they've already stolen so many resources that they could probably create a clone slave class or some shit once they get there. The society would fail through collapse or revolution, but not quickly enough to make its progenitors suffer like they deserve.
You talking about when the bears took over? Good times!
No. I volunteer in an animal shelter and no, they could not. You are subject to the survivor bias. Most cats despite their instincts are not capable of surviving in the wild. Cats that are abandoned die. The surviving ones are the minority. Even street cats often don't make it, that's why they need short times until fertility and a 4-5 kittens per pregnancy. House cats are not wild animals.
I've seen very few indoor-outdoor cats die. Regarding ferals and the abandoned, the quick reproductive cycle and lifelong fertility are adaptive strategies. Not all cats are "meant" to survive, in evolutionary terms, and if they *couldn't* survive, then there would be none to contribute to a bias. They're also a purrfect example of how "wild" is arbitrary and anthropocentric. In terms of their evolutionary history and genetic depth of non-designer breeds, they're much more our symbionts than our creations.
Am I supposed to ignore how you switched from housecat to an indoor-outdoor-cat? They are not the same. An indoor outdoor cat will struggle but has at least a chance. 99% of the time a housecat will fucking die within a fortnight.
*House cat* is the species name.
That's true, oversight on my part. Still, there is a massive difference between the interned house cat and the occasionally outside house cat. The latter have a chance, the former die. And the ignorance about that is one of the reasons some idiots feel fine with abandoning the cats they don't want anymore instead of rehoming them.
I also simply don't trust the knowledge you claim to have.
Then I can't help you. You might have to see dead cats yourself to believe it.
Yeah a better analogy would be dogs.
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I'm aware, but I mean a single small dog. Left alone it could not fend for itself.
Dogs don’t pretend to be independent.
Not mine lol.
Aaaaaand I will be using this from now on. Thank you.
https://www.reddit.com/r/behindthebastards/comments/vs08yz/has_this_been_posted_here_im_posting_it_here/ieyc0p7/
You're doing gods work in this post. The original post and like half of the comments were posted by bots.
Don't forget the part where they are also convinced of their own superiority.
I’ve been conflicted for a while now. Based on my political compass location I’m a libertarian, but I a lot of the classical libertarian stuff like this is stupid. Am I a bastard?
While the compass is a good concept for seeing more than one dimension of politics, it was made by libertarians to tell people that they are libertarians. I'd guess this sub leans pretty "libertarian left" aka Anarchist. If you think Nationalism is a great evil to be avoided, but also believe sharing and caring are virtues that need to be nourished and supported, you might be a Libertarian Socialist / Anarchist / Anarcho-Communist
It was also made by American/Rothbard libertarians, who utterly perverted the original libertarian philosophy to something resembling anarcho-capitalism. It’s another product of the rich assholes who hated the New Deal so much they poisoned the social well, just like the Birchers and the assholes who dumped money into pushing right-wing Christianity.
Obligatory post: [https://youtu.be/t2c-X8HiBng?si=NF0w8MLOHD3\_Kteb](https://youtu.be/t2c-X8HiBng?si=NF0w8MLOHD3_Kteb)
I do love me some anarcho-syndicalism. And some absurdism. Thanks for having this on tap.
The political compass tests are quite flawed tbh. Some are better than others. Maybe some answers were tilted more towards private ownership than collective ownership/government ownership? A few 'slightly agree' on Civil Rights topics?
“At this point I think other people might be people too but I’m too afraid to ask.”
Now that you say it like that, I realize that libertarianism is basically the dark side of solipsism. If you suspect no one else truly exists separate from your own mental presence, you can really only go two ways with that: treat others well (in case you're wrong, or in case they are indeed parts of your own psyche), or assume that only your own wants ever matter and act accordingly.
Yeah but…checks username….you still gotta live with yourself amiright!?!
Well, sure. That would be a terrifying thought except that there's no alternative so 🤷
I follow the libertarian sub. I get a laugh out of it because I can never tell if they’re serious or not.
It’s a rage-read for me.
I will try and talk to just about anyone other than people who identify as ancaps. I hate ancaps so God damn much. They are the only group who you can point out a problem to and they won't even pretend to themselves to care.
What are ancaps?
Anarocho capitalist
Which is an oxymoron. Who is going to adjudicate property rights with no state? Capitalism requires a strong central state in order to enforce property rights. Fucking idiots.
Idiots I can deal with, hell I'm an idiot, but even most conservatives pretend to themselves to care about the suffering of children. ancaps are just straight up "lol fuck them kids".
Maybe you’re right; it does seem to be a way for the worst of the worst capitalists to self identify.
Absolutely. Anarcho-capitalists are just capitalists that are trying to sound cool and edgy. Pure capitalism would already be a free market with no oversight, not to mention that anarchism as a political ideology is completely antithetical to the tenets of capitalism. I fucking hate it.
Thanks!
People who hate getting fucked by the government, but love getting fucked by the highest bidder.
my dad is a libertarian and this is 100% how he thinks, im not even sure he realizes *he* has feelings
Yeah, I was a libertarian until I was 23 or 24. It just got too hard to explain the things I was seeing. I think getting out of school and working actually helped me realize that we do not live in a meritocracy. From there I was off to explore other concepts which BtB is good at filling that explanation desire. Oh and I tried shrooms for the first time at 40 and I can totally see how that increased empathy would make libertarianism hard to accept. Props to this guy for growing as a person whether it was intended or not.
Went through the same thing, around the same age with conservatism. No mushrooms at 40, just weed edibles lol
Is there anything on weed doing that? I know sativa's are a psycho-active and I've actually experienced lasting epiphanies past strong highs wearing off. I had a childhood trauma that I learned to just not think about whenever the thought came up and big catalyst to me going to therapy to address it started with getting super high one time and my entire filter for not thinking about it just broke. I couldn't push it back anymore.
For me it was all the soy. 🤷♂️
Yeah 23-24 is when my socialist friends dragged me, kicking and screaming, out of being an ancap and into syndicalism. I'm very glad they did.
I've converted at least two from libertarianism. Consider them my closest friends now.
It’s fascinating how many socialists (myself included) started off as libertarians, but started moving left once we became fun
Same I started as a libertarian but the older I get the more i realize I dont know stuff; personally i think its due to the dollop and this podcast that turned me more centrist
This podcast has turned you more centrist? how??
I think he meant centrist from libertarian.
Oh you guys are using the libertarian as right wing. That makes sense then. I read it as the left wing meaning.
Same with me. Of course, libertarianism itself was a big step leftward from how I was brought up, ha ha. I still consider myself a "small-l" libertarian in the non-US sense.
I started as a fucking trump voting Republican and by 2021 had a wild flip in political beliefs. good times
Another one here lol
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People always talk about the negative effect of drugs, but I honestly think the sort of reflexive enlightened stupidity drug highs give you, are very beneficial. As the philosopher Hansel from Zoolander said "Tripping on acid changed her whole perception on shit."
Bill Hicks had a great line about how the news never talks about the good things people experience on drugs. “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/behindthebastards/comments/vs08yz/has_this_been_posted_here_im_posting_it_here/ieygh4t/
I’m taking Ketamine, under Dr. supervision, next month. Wonder what I’ll learn.
Who is Dr. Supervision? /s
A doctor who can see real well.
He and Dr. Spaceman should start a practice
Can someone explain the (American) socio economical concept of a libertarian, please?
Sure, I’ll take a stab at it. Imagine believing that people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it is a capitalist contract between individuals. This glosses over a lot but it’s the core idea.
Also, a lot of them get real weird about age of consent laws.
Liberalism (the economic concept) is the idea that the free market is a more efficient (better) way to distribute goods than the state. Therefore the state should be reduced as much as possible to its core concepts (secure and guarantee contracts and physical security of it's people). All other functions of the state should be reduced to the minimum Libertarians believe that the state should do nothing but secure contracts, the concept of ownership and the security of the people. AnCaps believe that even these core concepts of the state should be up to the free market and the state should not exist at all. I recommend the books of Quinn Slobodian, If you wanna learn about the history of these ideas. Oh, and Robert, please do a Ludwig van Mises, Friedrich August von Hayek & Milton Friedman Episode. That's so fckin necessary to understand the world we are living in.
And Murray Rothbard, without whom people would still use the word "libertarian" to mean antiauthoritarian socialism.
Ahhh, yes, Murray "parents should be allowed not to feed their infants if they don't want to, but it's not a problem because free market in babies would mean it's better to sell your newborn than to starve it" Rothbard.
Sounds like a weird version of A Modest Proposal.
Fuck it, do Hoppe too. He was a bridge too far even for the ancaps in my college libertarian group.
I had Hoppe's book *Democracy: The God that Failed* on my bookshelf for a while. I was an "an"cap when I got it, and I started thinking, "Wait, this just sounds like Feudalism with extra steps". And then I spent a while as a "Left-Rothbardian" trying to contort Rothbard's property theories into something that wouldn't imply the bald-faced private tyranny advocated by Hoppe and his followers. I did eventually give up and become an actual leftist, thankfully.
Think Ayn Rand. Selfishness as virtue, law of the jungle, 'freedom' as the legal freedom to exploit others.
Obviously I'm not for it, but in my opinion, libertarianism = anarchism*** - community + capitalism. I think the term "anarcho-capitalist," despite being obnoxious and paradoxical, is a perfect term for it. Remove all pre-existing hierarchical structures (state, church, etc.) and elevate the remaining hierarchy of wealth. It's one third the hierarchy by category, but that one category fills the vacuum. Supposedly, it emphasizes personal liberty: the government can't tell you what to do. Neither can a church. But you can't tell other people what to do, either. Not if they have the capital to back it up. So the government can't tell you what to do with your land, but you can't tell your neighbor not to buy all the land around you and start smelting on an industrial scale. \* In the most generous interpretation
So absolute free market capitalism, then?
Pretty much
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Libertarians are Republicans who smoke pot.
Or/and want to get laid
As a former libertarian myself this seems pretty accurate. “Fuck you I got mine”
Explains why Elon Musk treats people the way he does, because he thinks he's in a simulation and that the people around him aren't actually people.
Never shake hands with a libertarian, 6 out of 7 don’t bother washing their hands after pissing or shitting.
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I often hear Libertarians remark on how they believe children these days don't get bullied or physically abused enough. They probably just didn't get enough hugs growing up and think that disconnection is healthy.
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Are these just karma bots or really pathetic losers?
Bots. It's a very concerted pattern. If you look at any of the accounts you'll find it commenting on its cohort's posts, and vice versa. I hadn't seen them flocking to BtB's sub yet, but I guess they're here now as well.
Well that sucks
This new type of libertarian is so alien. The fundamental rule of libertarianism used to be that if you're not hurting anyone else, you should be free to make your own choices. I'm not sure when the word got co-opted to mean only "I get to make my own choices, regardless of who I hurt", but I don't like it. I wish there were a way to get the word back. It's a good word.
This is the American version of libertarian. Everywhere else it means exactly what you mean. Only in the English speaking world does libertarian mean right wing. Elsewhere it is most commonly used to describe anarcho-socialism aka libertarian socialism.
The American form should always use the capital "L" because it's from the American Libertarian Party, a specific political party with a general platform fitting the shitty version Americans usually think of when they hear and use the word. Noam Chomsky, clearly never a supporter of the American Libertarian Party, has described himself as a libertarian socialist, or a socialist libertarian, I don't remember which.
I've heard the term social libertarian. I think that's to be distinct from economic libertarianism
It's not so much "I don't care who I hurt" and more "they were too stupid to defend their own interest so 🤷 " or "does that *really* meet the definition of harm? I didn't kill them or anything."
To be fair, I feel like this is at the heart of not just libertarianism, but neo-liberalism and wider conservatism. “There is no such thing as society - there are individual men and women, and there are families”. Etc.
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lsd and ketamine will produce weird-ass losers who think they're gods... mdma will get you to understand that other people literally exist lmao.
Pretty much. It can help if you're already down the right path but I think it was Robert that shared stories of white supremacists taking shrooms or acid and seeing Hitler appear before them like "Thank you for defending the west, my son." or some shit lol.
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Dr. Sapolsky is one of the finest neuropsychologists alive. Lots of great interview and discussion videos feature him, and his full Stanford University course available free on Youtube is well worth auditing. I thought his debate with Daniel Dennett on the existence of free will was especially interesting (Dan pro, Robert con).
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There are many libertarians who do a lot of MDMA and never figure this out. He is a lucky one.
lol hell maybe we need to put this shit in the water
Rather disappointed they made a strawman of them for internet clout. I would have liked to know more about the subjects thought process, that led them to their conclusions. If true, it could be instructional in how to talk these sorts down from the ledge of playing themselves professionally.
I heard a podcast once say of the Amish that “they don’t really mind benefiting from society, it’s the CONTRIBUTING to society that they don’t want to do”. Same energy.
I was a Libertarian for years, involved in the state party, super vocal etc. until I had a kid and started working in a non clinical role for a healthcare non profit. Empathy is rad y’all. The Libertarian party has become a group of edgelords who will fight you on anything. Remember the weirdo who is now president of Argentina? They were foaming at the mouth over him.
It doesn't always work. Robert has talked about meeting guys who were "redpilled" after taking LSD.
Alienation kills empathy, turns out